Our Stories: Escaping IHOPKC - An Interview With Alyssa Hammond

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org. And with me, I have my very special guest, Alyssa Hammond, former member of IHOP. Alyssa, it's so good to have you on today and to tell your story.

We've been chatting for quite a while now before we started recording. And as I'm getting everything set up, we're talking Star Trek and all of the fun stuff. And now we're going to switch over to the IHOP stuff. But maybe if you could just pause a minute and tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

So I was at 13 years old, my parents moved to Kansas City. My dad often says one of the things that resonated with him was when Mike said, you know, if you feel like a square peg in a round hole, this is the place for you.

And it wasn't just that. It was many other things, you know, he really connected with the prophetic history. He felt he had some dreams and just other things that like lined up with it even before he'd ever heard of Kansas City.

It's kind of like weird stuff that led him to believe that God was calling us. And so he moved us. I wasn't happy about it at the time because, you know, I was 13 and I was being uprooted.

Yeah, yeah. But I so I plugged into my new life pretty quickly, though. I was the youngest member of the prophecy teams and the dance team. So I got recruited right away. Not there was yeah, that wasn't normal, though, for 13 year olds. But I happened to be doing that. So yeah, my life was like I go to school during the week. And then on the weekend, I work, you know, we go to Friday night service where we learned about song of Solomon.

And then Saturday we get up, we go work the prophecy rooms for about four hours, me and my dad. And then we go to some random, you know, fast food place in Grandview. And then we run over to the EGS service where Mike talks about the end times and how we're all going to die horrible death and all that.

And then we wake up the next morning and I dance, you know, at Sunday morning, you know, church service. Yeah, and then I'm and then we go home and then we have a small group or more. I have worse come over to our house and we talk about the end times and whatnot.

And so then, you know, by the end of the weekend, I'm totally exhausted and they got to wake up and go to school and started all over and there was a doorbell. You know, it's funny because in what you just said and what we've previously talked about, you're describing my former life, although I was not a dancer.

answer and you don't want to see me dance. I can be honest with you. But we lived in that mentality. The world was ending, we were joyfully doomed. I don't know how best to describe this.

We were joyfully doomed and we enjoyed the fact that the world was ending. And it's really sad when you think about it, because of what that does to a child. And I just, you know, looking back, there are so many things I felt, today I feel kind of robbed because I lost opportunities in living in this mindset.

What was it like for you as a child in this? What were you thinking when you were dancing about the end of the world? What went through your head? It's funny, you say that because we actually like would do these dance productions about like eschatological scripture passages, like at every one thing conference every year.

So yeah, I grew up. And again, I was 13, so I was very young. And maybe things just sink in deeper for me. But I feel like most of the people around me were not terrified.

Like I was. They were like, oh, this is so cool and so epic and so glorious. And like, and I was like, are you kidding me? This is like the worst thing ever. Like I'm praying to God that this doesn't actually happen in my lifetime, even though I am hundreds convinced that it is because of all the yada, yada, yada, yada.

Like all this extra biblical prophetic confirmation. Therefore, I know for sure that I'm going to die some horrific death, probably like in a concentration camp somewhere. So you know, in school, when I'm required to read Koritan Boom, that takes on a whole new meaning for me because I'm like looking at my future.

You know, so yeah, it's just, it was very dark. I often thought like it would, I really wish I could die. Like it would actually just be better to not live through this. Like I would just want, I just want to skip this part, God, and go to heaven.

And like, so I don't, yeah, I don't, I guess you would call that suicidal. You know, at the time, it was kind of like, not that I ever like attempted to take my own life.

But I didn't have any hope for the future or like too way for living. And I was a teenager, you know? Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And it's weird because in the brand of cult, there was different splinter groups.

And you go to one part of the country and it was the same thing. It had the same foundation of Doomsday, but they had different takes on how it would all happen out. And I can clearly remember as a child going to one part of the country and they were preaching on the concentration camps.

The Russians were going to storm the shores. They're going to rape the women and they're going to steal the children. And one horrific scene that still, I'll never get it out of my head, but I think it came from my own mother telling me that they will actually tie a people between two elephants and rip their bodies apart.

And whenever all of this comes down. And so you'd go to one part of the country and it's like, I don't know, scenes off of a B-rated horror movie. Then you go to another part and they had quote unquote.

grace and they said things like, but the bride won't have to go through this and the special elite of the believers. If you can just be that one and a million and they would do this kind of stuff. So they had like tears of Doomsday. You had the rank and file members who weren't the good, who weren't the elite of the members and they're going to be ripped together, who ripped apart by these elephants and what not. The peasants. Yeah, the peasants, you're the peasants of our cult, right? And you know, and now you say that, that actually triggered me. And I'm thinking

they were actually doctrines where they were entire sermons about the peasants of the cult. They were, I think they used the maybe the foolish origins, they used some kind of biblical passage. And they said, these, these are the lesser ones and they're the ones that will suffer.

Well, we are not going to suffer. But to a kid, man, this is not what you want to hear. This is not a healthy thing to hear. No, it is not. Yeah. And I didn't, again, it's like, it's years, years later that I'm finally putting that together. I like, as an adult, I started to like have. So Mike Bickle would get like random emails that are about like how things are going so horribly in the world. And then he'd like forward them to my mom who would then like forward them to me.

And then they'd hit my inbox and then I'd have like an anxiety, like panic attack sort of thing, like every time, like, even though it's like, okay, and like, it's like my husband. So he is not an eye-hopper. Like, thank God. He was like, that's crazy. He was like, that's just like conspiracy theorists. Like he's like, don't, and I'm like, but it feels so real. I think when it comes from your parents, like I never, I didn't really individuate like really ever, probably recently, maybe, you know, it was like a 30 in my 30s. So my parents' voice was always like the word of God to me.

So if they're endorsing something, and then Mike Bickle too, right? Like if they're endorsing something or saying something, it just resonates with me. And like, even if I don't want to believe it, it's like deep down, I had this like gut feeling that they're right. You know, and I'm wrong.

Even though my brain's kicking in and it doesn't, it's like I was taught to ignore my own intuition, my own instincts, my own what I'm hearing from the Lord, if what like Mike is saying or what my parents are saying contradicts it. I would say those are probably the strongest voices. There were other teachers and other voices too, but I'd say those three are probably equally powerful in my life, which is wild to say. But mainly Mike, obviously the parent thing makes sense, but the fact that someone that wasn't my parent could have that strongly. It's fun. What your husband said,

I had an interview with the man and a woman. The woman had escaped the random call from here in the main sect and the man, they fell in love and he married her and they're telling their story.

And he just doesn't understand any of this. And he said, I was with her one day and she wanted me to listen to a tape of this guy that sounds like Adolf Hitler and he said something to the effect that women are worth a good bullet to shoot him or I can't remember how he said it but he's quoting directly from you know from Branum and the look on his face when he said it it was hard for me not to laugh because I'm trying to picture picture myself in his shoes when you hear something like this it's just nuts

and you look back to the doctrine and what you said is exactly dead on there's so much of it there was nothing more than conspiracy theories but they weren't even the cool ones like

I studied conspiracy theories and some of them were kind of fascinating but these aren't these are like I don't know how to explain yeah it's like the worst possible way to punish people in their minds is all this was yeah we didn't you said you there were tears in your group where like you could escape the tribulation we didn't have that luxury at all like we were taught you know like we hit the rapture that's wrong that's not happening and like given all the reasons why and uh yeah so there was there was no hope there was no escape um like there was no mental you

know because a lot of the kids that I know that were in more traditional environments they would teach the rapture and that was kind of they're out like okay yeah like we're going to take revelation literally here but we don't have to be here you know but then like I was taught by many teachers like all the reasons why that's not you know actually bibliote accurate or was it the historical view you know it's a it's a recent view and like all the things so I was of course like very convinced and therefore you know and I'm still convinced frankly you know I don't know

I mean obviously I'm at the point where I'm just like willing to lay on my theology on the table but that rapture thing that definitely has a lot of holes in it so yeah there's so much I went through several iterations after leaving in fact it's kind of good I had um I had an original YouTube site that the cult attacked and brought down so I had all kinds of videos some of them had a hundred thousand views or more and the cult attacked it and brought it down they're trying to suppress the information so I'm rebuilding starting a new one but I look back at the way that

my mind was back during those years that I had it and I was a crazy nut I'll just say it man I had just escaped this thing and there was so much packed into my head that I was trying to evaluate and the problem is it's like it's like a ball of yarn that's you pull the string and then it just kind of unravels well that was happening to me verbally as I was pulling strings out of my head of things that I believed and the more I pulled the more nuts it got you know what I mean

it's like they're nuts stepped on top of nuts a further nonsense and when you when you pull it all out and you realize that none of the conspiracy theories were even close to something that a normal person would even believe. Then you're stuck in this world of, well, what do I do? Now I'm no longer in this. And if I tell somebody who was never in it, what's in my head, they're gonna flip out.

Right. Yes. Yeah. And so my husband is, you know, I think when I got married, I was actually at the time. I was like, I didn't, because I felt that like he was the guy that the Lord had for me, you know, because at that time, it was very much like you don't have a choice. God picks your person, right? You know, I don't believe that anymore. But you know, he still was a good choice. And I'd say he wasn't. But I died just, you know, my views were different then. And so at the time, it was like, God, I don't understand why

you picked somebody for me that didn't grow up in the same community as me, because there's just parts of me he's never gonna understand, you know? And obviously I see now why the Lord did that, because he needed someone to bounce me out and help point out, you know, the flaws and the weaknesses. But it is true that like there are parts of me that he's never gonna get, you know, like only other cult members, like understand, you know, like the specific, you know, like nature of everything, right? So, yeah, that is definitely, I think there's

an inherent loneliness when you come out of something like this, because you're leaving behind everyone who gets you. And then you're jumping into a world of people who just inherently don't get you, like, you know, because it sounds wacko if you say it out loud.

It is. And, you know, and I'm still like, I still keep going back to the conspiracy theory because I can't believe that I believe some of this stuff. I really can't. But what's odd is for me, and I don't know if it may be the same for you, after you leave, you're no longer believe any of the conspiracy theory nonsense. But when you have people that some major event happens in the world that is tied to one of those conspiracy theories, they want to do the aha, see, we're right, and they send you the conspiracy theory. Now,

me, I've already moved on, I realize that it's nonsense. And so it looks further like nonsense when they send it to me. But then to them, they think they're sending me some great revelation that proves that all of this nonsense was correct. Has that happened to you since you've left? Oh, yeah, like, yeah, like, especially, I don't like throwing people under the bus. It's hard because like, there's many people that are like relatives and very close to me and we're all at different stages in this process, right? Like, since, you know, since October, like, a lot of people are starting to, like, kind of wake up to

things. I was a little farther along in my journey by then, but I still didn't understand the ramifications of, like, the fullness of it. It was more just like, I sent something and it's off, but didn't really understand. Oh, it's like, oh, something is deeply on here, you know, and it's really odd, too, whenever you feel something that feels off because all of that mental programming comes back in your head, right? Yeah, I have to fight a lot of things. Yeah, like, well, so to give an example, so like around And maybe, I don't know, 2020.

So around there, I started to realize that like, something was off about the eschatology, mainly because the fruit of it in my own life was panic attacks, right? Fear, anxiety, you know, no joy, no peace, no hope, right?

Like all these things, you know, I feel like the Lord was leading me to Matthew 24, where it's like, you know, I hop your top at the main point of this passage is that we're supposed to know the times and the seasons.

But so which means, and by that they mean watch the news and freak out about current events. Like, I feel like it's what they were, that's the application. And I was like, okay, Jesus is like, okay, but what is this really about?

And he's like, what is the thing I mainly say in here? It's watch and pray, right? Like watch and pray, and it doesn't mean watch the news. It means watch him. And so it started to make, like it led me on a journey of realizing like that something was off.

There was this preoccupation, this like hyper focus on all these things that was just making everybody or at least me terrified. I think a lot of people didn't take it that seriously or didn't understand maybe, because like when I would say this to my parents later on, they would be like, well, we never taught you this.

We never said that. We never taught you about the, you know, that you were gonna die some perfect death. And I'm like, I mean, maybe you didn't actually say it, but you put me in a community where this is, this is the ramification of like what they're saying, right?

Look, when they're teaching this thing, like this is how I'm applying it to my life. Like, and I did have people tell me, yes, we'll be in concentration camp. So like, not them, but like maybe others or whatever.

So I gotta have your take on this. I'm on the outside looking in and I'm still trying to entangle or as brandly calls it detangle, all of this mess that is I hop. And I understand Paul Kane, I understand his connection to Brannum, and I can see how Brannum is evolved into this.

The trails are just very obvious. But the thing that is the total, it's like a black box to me, is trying to understand Bob Jones. How did you see him as a child? When you saw some of the things that he said and did, what was it like seeing all of this stuff about Bob Jones?

Yeah, so that's a good question actually. Bob wasn't really around by the time I was there. So I guess, like so I was there, like pretty much at the beginning of the prayer room, like I hop, you know, like we were in trailers, we were getting the thing going.

My family's one of the first families to come for that. But I think Bob and Paul Kane, the Kansas City office, was kind of leading up to that. And then by the time the prayer was around, they weren't really around.

Or if they were, they may have visited ones or twice, you know, kind of thing, but they weren't like super intergrueling involved. However, we heard their names all the time because we had to study the prophetic history.

Well, I say had to, you know, for students, some students were required to. And so maybe when I was at the time that I was a student, I was required, but as a child, I just listened to it because like it was, you know, cool.

And, right, like to me, impassinating, right? So we studied it and my dad was obsessed. with it and everything. So Bob Jones was more of a mythological character and so it was Paul Kane.

And I do have vague memories of at some point in my teenage years them talking about how Paul Kane and Bob Jones at different times had stumbled morally. But it was very glossed over and minimized.

Also had randomly heard about Ernie Groen and how he is, it's in the prophetic history actually that he had attacked Mike and that ultimately repented and make forgave him and all these things about how humble Mike was during that whole thing and then the guy died and all this stuff.

So there was this story that was spun and that's just what I believed. And so it wasn't until October that I actually started looking into things and I found your podcast. There's other resources that were like, oh, hey, maybe the story that was spun and told to you wasn't the real story.

So I guess for me, Bob Jones was just like this awesome dude that had this uncanny ability to hear from the Lord, same as Paul Kane, it was kind of quirky or whatever, but like, yeah, guys like that.

And Mike, because Mike told these stories about how he'd go to heaven and stuff, like in a chariot or whatever and see God directly. And so I wanted to be close to these people because I wanted to be close to God.

And I'm like, well, if they're that close to God, then if I get closer, that's who they were in my mind. There was the mythology there. They weren't real people. So yeah, I wasn't old enough to have been around when they were actually super involved.

That makes sense. And the fact that it's glossed over makes great sense. One of the other, and I'll open up to you in the world about this, one of the issues that I'm struggling with right now is that the information is so critical, but it's also so bad that I can't actually say it on YouTube or YouTube will censor me.

If I say the things, if I say the things that Bob Jones did, I get censored and the video gets knocked down. And that's, you know, I'm looking through our Ernie Groen's report. I'm looking at some other things.

And Mike Bickle ties the origins of this movement all the way back to the years in which Bob Jones was there. So this was significant, but yet it's so bad, I can't even put it on YouTube.

Yeah, exactly. You have to use terms like CSA and all the things right to that. Yeah, I'm trying to find a non-offensive way to talk about a man who is asking women into his private quarters to do things that I can't say were YouTube will censor me.

It's just, it's so nuts. And, you know, I take a step back because all of this very eerily, similarly resembles what I came from, although in the Brandon Colt, it was men with men instead of men with women.

But I look at this and it's the same thing. It's just different. But neither one of them can be possibly a- of my god because this isn't the way that god operates god doesn't send predators to his people and say here listen to my predator my beloved predator who i'm sending you international house of predators i actually had not heard that one yet so i think that's that's actually i just came up with that my own mind awesome uh... i'm using it going forward i'm using it another one i think me and my brother were joking about was i'm

pickling referred to the bickle pickle oh yeah so whenever i'm pickling people that's when i whenever i made the little cartoon and i chose pickle that actually had more meaning than i even knew i guess yeah most people say bickle debacle i'm like pickle might be a better i don't want to be like throwing people under the hard because i feel like i'm walking the line of like there are so many people that are like at the point where they can like you know light hearted they joke about things right and then there's people that are like

definitely not there and i don't like want to hurt people's feelings or offend people yeah but sometimes it's just you've been through so much you just like start joking about it you know even though it is serious uh... and it's it's a healthy way i used to read the reader's digest might magazines and laughter's the best medicine you know it's a healthy way for your mind to comprehend something that has happened to you that's a very bad but not drive you deep into depression so there are things that i try to find the funny and everything in my history

and i'll open up about this to i think i did this before but usually when it's something that's really bad involving a character that i would have you normally just feared in the cult i try to put instead of his face in my mind i put daffy docker bugs bunny i think of it and i frame it like that so in my mind it's different but then the problem is as i'm talking to people through the podcast i've got bugs bunny and daffy duck in my brain so i have to be careful how it comes out

but to people who are escaping or in the process of deciding whether not to escape what i learned is there are varying levels of being able to laugh about it some of the people who are hurting the most and they're getting ready to when they see other people laughing about it they think it's mockery they really don't understand but then people who are trying to reconcile what just happened to them after they escape they kind of see the humor in it but they're hurting so badly they can't laugh and it's not until you go through those two stages that

yeah this was some kind of funny stuff i was in what in the world was i thinking you know right so we initially for the random cults we set up different i guess you call them silos of support groups so if you first come out this is the shell-shocked group and then here's the angry at the world group and then here's the yay let's party group and Yeah, it's like the stages of grief. I feel like I've seen that even in myself. There's disbelief, and then there's anger and bargaining. I've been in that, you know, like, oh, if only I had not gone die-hopied, right? Oh, if only I had not.

Yeah, and I do want to disclaim and say like it's not like it was all bad. Like I, you know, grew up with a very strong personal relationship with the Lord. And a lot of that is due to some of the good, you know, and actually scripturally based teachings that I was exposed to and being an environment that prayer was encouraged, right?

So, you know, there were things that were mine, that were me and the Lord that weren't being outside influenced by like weird stuff that, you know, I still have, and I still take with me.

So, it was not all bad and, you know, like a lot of people went and had like, you know, similar, like a lot of good experience. I think it's just when people start getting into the prophetic history and applying, you know, eschatology to current events, you know, and all that stuff that it starts to, and when at any time it's just getting off of scripture and into this like weird little side cult area, that's where it, you know, starts to hurt people.

I get it. And a lot of people think that because of the way that I do what I do, it's mostly the critical stuff. They think I didn't have a, I didn't view my life as a happy life as a happy little cult member waiting for the world to end.

There were good times. I mean, we had some real, real fun. The one of the things about a cult is you have this level of closeness that you're not going to find anywhere else in the world.

After you leave, you'll never find it again because it's actually an unhealthy level of closeness. And so when you leave, you miss that, but while you're in it, and you don't realize how destructive it is to be that much in other people's business.

It feels good, and you feel like you're, I don't know, it's almost like being married to every single person in the cult. You're right in each other's business, and it's not that way until you, you know, for normal people until they get married, they're not, they don't find anybody that they connect that closely with.

So we had happy times, we had good times, but at the same time, it was unhealthy and destructive, and our minds were, you know, our minds were being abused. It was spiritual abuse. In many cases, it was emotional abuse.

And some people suffer whenever they leave the cult with the, I'm, I'm drawn a blank on the syndrome, but whenever an abuse victim wants to go back to the abuser, a lot of people who escape a cult, they, they go through that and somebody in the comment feed can say what that, what that.

It's like it's alluding me as well, but I totally a Stockholm syndrome, Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever seen the office. I see you probably have, but there's that quote from what's his face, where he's like, oh, I've been in many cults, both as leader and follower.

That's so hard when I heard that you make more money as a leader, but you have more fun as a follower.

Yeah, it's unbelievable. So you went through life, you started as a young dancer, you were looking for the world to end. Once you got into your adult years, how did it affect your way of thinking?

What, the frame of reference that they indoctrinated you with as a kid? How did that impact your normal day-to-day life as an adult? Yeah, well, I mean, I chose to go to ministry school. It wasn't even I hop you at the time, it was FSM and then FMA, and I had a Y-WAM year in between all the acronyms.

So I gave up, you know, a normal college experience, which at the time seemed like, you know, like better and holy. And you know, there were good things about it. You know, like I had a lot of classes from like good teachers like Alan Hood, who actually taught, you know, like really great stuff, you know, like and actually heard sermons about the cross. Like, what? You know, that was a rarity, really, you know, believe it or not, but so yeah, like there were definitely like good things about it, but you know, I, I didn't pursue like a normal path. I ultimately ended up being

able to turn my years in ministry like and kind of merge them into an education degree. I still took education classes, but I was able to kind of like get to where I needed to go because there were still some schools that would take I hop credits at the time. I'm sure they won't need more.

But yeah, so I was able to get a Christian education degree in a time of private school. That was right across the street from my hop. So the course and I was extremely involved in theater. I directed theater for like 10 years. So you know, it's not like things went bad like I enjoyed what I did. Education, those very exhausting and I guess I maybe just one of the practical physical things right as I had already burned myself out like from the age of 13 up like, you know, and then I hop you like it was even more intense of the schedule because I was also still doing like props rooms

and dance team on top of the, you know, 24 hours in the prayer room and all these classes and all these services and all these things. It was a lot. Yeah, so it was and then my body started to like fall apart. So I guess some of the other ramifications was like my physical health was really impacted. And I think that's ultimately what kind of pushed me out. I didn't stay because yeah, my body is like couldn't really handle it and then even as a teacher, you know, so I came into that already worn out and then I'm teaching, you know, and that's exhausting. And so I just got to the

point where, you know, I got married and then after a couple of years, I had to leave teaching and go do like like administrative jobs for like different ministries and stuff because my body just was like burned out and I just had so many like digestive issues. Like my hands would just like shake and people would think I was on drugs and I'm like, I'm not on drugs. Like I'm just nauseous and my stomach like stick can't handle any kind of food like it was bad.

So yeah, I would say my physical health was very impacted by just kind of the like, I don't know. I don't know what you even call that. It's just like this pressure to like, you never rest.

There's never, there's no like observing the Sabbath, you know, that's something I've had to learn like in my adult life and it's hard to do as a mom, but I try to like have at least like one day a week, you know, where like the kids are with the grandparents and I'm like actually resting, you know, because you know the Sabbath, I guess, right, like Sundays, it's like, oh, well, those are work days, like, or they used to be, right?

And so I'm like, I'm working, my whole weekend was working, you know, in ministry. And so I guess seeing ministry as this work thing that just like drains you. So I'm trying to reorient myself now to see, you know, just a practical level that like spirituality is not separate from like physical and emotional wellbeing.

You know, like this is all one thing. So resting is a spiritual thing to do. You know, I don't have to feel guilty that I'm resting instead of, you know, running around serving and doing whatever, you know, that I think is spiritually productive or whatever, you know.

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I've read a few books by cult experts about the effects on the body from being in a cult. And they talk about the, they call it high control groups or high demand groups and they push the people to exhaustion because while they're in a state of exhaustion, they're very easy to manipulate the minds because their mind is tired.

And so one of the key differences between IHOP and what was in the Brandham movement that it came from, we weren't, so we weren't as demanding as what I see with IHOP. It's like hyper-demand, it's crazy, physically exhausting.

But we were mentally exhausted because we listen to these long recordings and constantly focus on Doomsday much like you did. And one of the things that I've noticed and countless people, I've worked with several people out of the cults.

While they're in the group, they look unhealthy. Some of the women, especially because the women are the most abused in the brand-um religions. They look sickly and weak and sometimes we've got, you know, groups all over Facebook and Twitter, etc. Sometimes whenever a person joins the group just to make sure they're not a cult plant. I go through some of their profile and look at what they're saying and the pictures, etc. And it's weird because if you go back far enough, you see a person who looks sick and weak and tired and worn out. But then after they escape, it's like they've got new

life. It's like a new birth almost. And, you know, you can attribute some of that to just being excited about leaving a cult. But I've been in the support groups long enough that I have seen people go through that initial excitement and then enter into, unfortunately, after the excitement, there's a reality that hits you. And it's a burden because now you feel sorry for all those people in it and it kind of brings balance to your sudden party, your sudden excitement of being leaving, of having left. And so I look at the pictures from that point in time and they still look healthier. So I know it's

not the excitement. What would you say about your health after leaving? Has it changed? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm much healthier now than I was. And I had to go through, you know, there's just a lot of like practical steps I had to take. Like for one, you know, not being in the environments that were emotionally abusive, frankly, you know, that because that also was a contributing factor. It wasn't just the demand. It was also like the emotional stress, you know. And yeah, I had to, you know, I started juicing every day that helped. I literally like drink like giant, like

just enormous amounts of vegetables in liquid form, basically. So I'm one of those. So, you know, like, yeah, my body did eventually recover. I was able to have two children, you know, when I was like seriously worried at one point that like I just was not able to handle it. So, and motherhood is like extremely exhausting and physically demanding, but like, you know, I've gotten through it, you know, so I mean, I'm still in it, but I got through the pregnancies and all that. So yeah, you know, and then we moved to Florida, so I get a lot more sunshine now. So that's nice. Oh, wow. I would love to live

there. My wife won't move there because of the bugs. She said the bugs are just too big. And the alligators, she cannot take the alligators. Well, we have a lot of screens like we've got screened in torches and all that to handle the bugs. So yes, the alligators are kind of like tornadoes.

Like when you live in Midwest, it's like, yeah, whatever tornadoes here, it's like I have whatever alligators. Like, you know, obviously I don't let my kids run around outside on supervised, but, um, you know, like, I'm not like in my house, how to leave your alligators. One of the other things that I've noticed, when a person leaves a cult and they have children, their perspective is so much different than their parents.

Because, well, the parents are in a cult, so, you know, it's obviously going to be different. But where other parents are thinking for the well-being of the child and the normal motherhood, fatherhood stuff, a person who has escaped a cult has baggage beyond that.

They're thinking about all of the things that their child can do that they never could, and the life that they can have that they, in many ways, they were hindered from having. How has it affected you as a mother with your children?

Yeah, I would say. So, yeah, my husband obviously was not, you know, from my world. He was from a totally different world. So, I think, like, ironing out the what I'm okay with, you know, like, has even evolved, like, since getting married and, you know, having kids, like, initially, it was like, we will never celebrate Halloween, you know?

Like, and now it's like, here we are, you know, they're on their little costumes, trick-or-treating, and, you know, and there's part to me that's like, oh, the devil's holiday, and part of me is like, I don't know, I guess there has been this gradual evolving, because, again, it wasn't even till October, that I even, like, it fully sank in, like, oh, wow, like, all these, like, feelings I've been having about that things were being off, those are, like, super valid, and, like, way more valid than I knew.

So, I think, for a long time, I still just, like, have felt guilty and felt, like, ultimately, like, I'm wrong, and they're really right, deep down. And so, now, I think, for the first time, it's like, oh, maybe, like, they're not actually right, deep down, like, at all, you know?

So, it's probably affected my perspective on, like, you know, like, entertainment, you know, like, and then I, like, like, yeah, there's just so many things about, like, the world I grew up in, and this isn't even necessarily specific to IHOP, it's also just kind of a charismatic, conservative thing, just, like, paranoid, like, my parents, like, they've loosened up over the years, you know, I'd like to say, like, I wasn't allowed to watch Barney, you know, I'm the oldest child, because of the magic.

Never thought to mention the fact that Barney ended up being a pedophile, we don't care about that. We just care about the magic. Yeah. But, like, my little brother, Simeon, was sitting there watching, like, Brave Heart and Gladiator, like, sucking his thumb, you know?

So, that, but that also wasn't even that far off, really, because there was, like, violence is fine. They got to get used to this, because this is what their future's going to be, but there can be no sex, right?

Like, or, sorry, I probably can't say that word without you getting blind. That's okay. Leave it out. Yeah. They're just, yeah, there was, like, you can watch rated R as long as it's violence.

But if it's anything else, you can't watch it. I don't know. So there was, there was all these, like, weird rules about, like, movies and entertainment. So, kind of, like, as an adult, like, easing myself into, like, making my own choices and, like, using my own discernment and, like, loosening up on a lot of those things, being, like, oh, I used to think that, like, this was God saying that you can or can't do this.

And, like, no, it actually wasn't. You know, it was people saying that, you know? So. Yeah, with regards to the S word, which, I'll probably leave it. It'd probably be okay. But, I'll never forget, when we left the cult, I was working with a guy who had, he had been in the brand of cult back.

years before me, but he was from another country, and in that country, it wasn't the same as in America. So whenever he was an adolescent, he went to the beach, there were nude beaches, and the skin wasn't the same, the way that people viewed the skin wasn't the same in his country.

And he came to America and it's like, what is this? People here are freaks. Man, it's not normal. God gave you that skin. Right. And it was the first time that I ever came to realize that even that was unhealthy.

And so I'm one of these people that I just study things to know in. So I start going through everything that I could find about the ancient world, and the ancient clothing, and what the ancient Christians would have wore.

And you look at some of the togas that the women would have wore, and Greek and Roman Christians, man, my children would not be allowed to be with a woman who was dressed like that.

And you talk about the festivals, the Halloween, I think it was that same person. He said, John, I don't understand why you can't move on beyond this false religion. And he came from the same religion. He was further along than me.

But he said, look at Colossians, too. Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, and with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath, do you understand, John, what Halloween is?

It's the festival for the new moon, and every country has its own version of this. And he was explaining this to me, and I'm scratching my head thinking, yeah, but there's demons. There's witches.

And, you know, I was like, you know, this can't be. We forced ourselves early on. I want to say it was within two years of leaving the cult. Another ex cult member invited us to a Halloween party.

And it was one of the most fun things I've ever done in my life. Yeah, yeah, holidays, because I even remember, like, I love Christmas, like big deal to me. But as, like, my parents kind of got to this point, I don't know if they started getting influenced by some of the people that were like, you know, Christmas is actually a pagan holiday, like Constantine, blah, blah, blah.

We shouldn't celebrate it. They started to lose their Christmas enthusiasm. And it got to be the point where it's like, I'm by myself putting up Christmas tree, because like, I'm the only one that will do it, you know.

So definitely, obviously, as, you know, having my own household of like, we do Christmas around here. Like, yeah, there's just a lot of like joy that was like stolen by like these kind of, these like legalistic ideas, like, oh, well, all, you know, like these religions are rooted in paganism.

They're for, or sorry, not religions holidays are rooted in paganism. They're for we can't celebrate them. And it's like, okay, well, yeah, like sure, maybe there's pagan reach this stuff, but it doesn't mean that you can't, it's like being in the world, but not of it.

It's like, we don't want to just totally separate ourselves from the culture. We can still like be salt and light. in the culture, we don't have to participate in the things that we feel are not good, but we don't have to just completely reject joy and happy.

Well, and it's even, for me, it's even deeper than that. Like I say, I study things to no end. I can't tell you how many books I read about this, but it isn't that we're taking that from the pagan cultures.

It's that the pagan cultures took that from just simple logistics on how to grow food. We have to study the moon cycle as in order to, in the harvest, all of it works together because we live in this world where there is a winter, there's a summer, there's a time to plant, there's a time to, there's a time to sow, there's a time to reap, sow and and so forth, and so eventually over time, that's how they celebrated this, and the celebrations turned into the pagan deities, et cetera, but from its inception, it was just literally

celebrating the harvest, the moons, the things that people required in order to live. You had to know those things to live. We have watches and calendars, and it's all foreign to us. We wouldn't think about having to go outside and look at the moon to know, should we plan our corn right now or not.

But what happened was the pagan cultures built their, all of their holidays and their rituals around this, and then the moons became worshiped as deities, et cetera. It entered into pantheons of deities, and then fast-forward into Halloween, we're doing the same thing that originally was just a celebration of a harvest, but because of all of this weird history that went with it, you have the witches and the demons and the draculas and whatnot, and I like fiction, so I enjoy it, and I don't think people could take it away from me now.

Well, that shows how far you've come. Exactly. So let's talk about life after cult. That's something that everyone who listens to the art stories on the podcast, really that's what they're looking for. They're looking for how do we survive after leaving this thing, and a lot of people, everybody goes their own separate ways, some people remain Christian, some people don't.

What was it like for you, whenever you came to try to decide religiously where you were going after the cult? I'm assuming you remain Christian. What did you choose, and where did you go?

Yeah, I think that's like an ever-evolving thing. I've always had that personal relationship with the Lord through everything, and so I've never lost that, but at the same time, the reason why I wear even doing this is because I reached out to you for recommendations on apologetics books.

So obviously, I feel like there's this split thing going on in my brain. There's the me that knows deep down that I love Jesus, and then he's real. And then there's the me that's like, wait a minute, there's a lot of things that I used to 100% believe are true that are like lies, and so now I have to evaluate everything.

So I got a double check. So yeah, so they're so yeah, I don't know I guess like there is I guess there is more of an open-mindedness to be wrong Which is good because obviously there was much spiritual pride before of like we have it all figured out and you know All these little peasants don't know what they're doing and we're the light and once right so let that go So yeah, I guess I'm more open to just kind of like as far as just like all theological things right like what you know What should fall to the ground and what should stay you know just kind of still there and you know a lot of it

It's like you know, I kind of I mean there's not a lot that's changed and then there are a lot They're like as far as like scriptural things I feel like you know a lot of those things for me haven't changed because they were Scripturally rooted but anything that was just like not scriptfully rooted. I'm just like whatever, you know Away with the extra I'm tired of it. Yes, so that's why it's like oh nope Got to be gone, but I mean that's not a bad thing But you know there is that like there is those fears that arise of you know

God are you real? You know is Jesus who he sent you was I guess got a double check here, you know I got a and then I've wrestled a lot to emotionally with like Like how do I know that I'm saved because I feel like I hop was a very like works-based environment Not that they ever would have outright said that but the the just what you kind of picked up by being there was like I got to earn my salvation is kind of the it's like the vibe It's kind of like I got to try really hard to like be so holy and spiritual

So the idea that there is nothing that I can do to help God save me is just like Still blowing my mind like I like there was a time that was literally weeping on the floor in my room for like hours Like literally is reading the gospels and it was like hitting me for like the first time Like after we had moved to Florida, and I was like oh my gosh. I feel like I've never heard the gospel

Yeah, and then like oh the chosen I love the chosen right and I'm like Why do I love the chosen so much? I'm like the biggest fan like ever and I'm like Maybe it's because I've really haven't had the gospel actually like portrayed to me all that often You know we spent a lot of time talking about Revelation and song of Solomon, but we really didn't there wasn't a lot of crit like just basic Christology So yeah, I feel like in some ways I'm like a child just like trying to like learn that But I feel like I'm constantly battling in my mind this idea that like I got to do something like I wasn't baptized

Exactly the right way, so I got to figure that out I got a you know like if I have even the smallest level of sin somewhere that I can't kick like that That's not except one going to hell like I'm fighting all these things a lot So I feel like that's a still a wrestle even though it's like I'll rationalize with myself like all the reasons why that's wrong I still am not my heart's not settled. So there's that And then there's the part of me that's like I still pray and I still read my Bible and you know what I mean

I live my life like I pray pray and God answers it like regularly, you know So it's like he's there and I know that he hears me and he answers me and like I know And then there's the part of me that's like, am I even saved?

Are you even real? So yeah, so anyways. And so the church question, church kind of triggers me a little bit some most of the time. So right now, I guess the church that we're at, I don't know.

I mean, so you call it, it's non-denominational. But what does that mean? Because I hop was non-denominational too. So I guess in some ways it's not like I've really switched. But I hop was not like a traditional non-denominational anything.

It was a very unique messaging there that you're not going to hear literally anywhere else. So it's not anything like I hop. But yeah, I guess I've just like, I don't know. Mainly, I kind of I'm going like where my husband feels the most connected.

And I feel, it's not that I, I don't know. I grew up in a different kind of ministry culture. So I've always wrestled with like, I don't really feel, there's nothing familiar about this to me, like all the different places, right?

Like, I don't feel connected to people. No one's going to get me, no one's going to understand. And then what is church even? I used to feel really guilty because once I had babies, I was just impractical to go to church in person.

So I would web stream. Because otherwise, I'm like, well, just being the nursing mother's room, anyway, streaming. So I might as well be in my living room doing that. What's the point being there in person?

But I'd always feel guilty about it. And I think I just recently realized, I don't have to feel guilty about that. Because I don't think that going to a mega church sitting there around thousands of people and then leaving is actually what the Bible meant anyway by church.

And it's a thing that's good for people. It's helpful to my husband. So I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I'm not saying it's this biblically mandated thing that that's what it's supposed to look like.

So I feel like that's kind of a freedom for me of like, oh, I don't have to feel guilty that I'm not like a front rower every week in person. Yeah, we actually stream every week.

But yeah, I don't know. So I guess I'm not fully landed anywhere in particular either. Because it's always been hard for me to connect with most preachers. And at IHOP, it was a little different.

I used to think that I was the only place ever that I'd ever connected with anybody. But it actually even got to a point where I wasn't connecting with anything they were saying either.

And then my later years, I was sitting there like, wow, I'm not getting anything out of this. I don't even know what he's saying. What does he even say? He's saying the same things I've heard for 20 years.

Yeah, different children. I remember that feeling. I sat down with the minister one day and I was trying to explain that, you know, we had a different frame of reference than most people had.

If you grow up in a cult, you know all the cult things. But a lot of the basics of Christianity, they really, they distract you. They don't want you to know the basics. They want you to know the extra biblical stuff.

But then on the flip side, the people who are in normal churches, they have this normal church tradition that they assume everybody knows. So the trouble that I had when I started going into new churches was they were talking about things.

things that they assumed everybody knew and believed and, well, these weren't our core values. They were their core values. So fortunately, one of the churches had a, there's like a new Christian convert class and even though I wasn't a new Christian, I set through the class and they took me through the basics of what is the gospel and suddenly I realized, I had no clue what the gospel was.

I had this word that I called the gospel that meant something like the gospel actually was. So whenever you, whenever you left this thing and you, you started entering new churches, what was it like just learning the gospel for the first time?

I think that, like you said, like growing up at IHOP, I didn't hear a lot of the basics and I assumed it was just because it's like, oh, well, we're above and beyond that.

You know, it's like we, everyone already knows that and we were too elite for that, right? Like we need to be focused on all of this stuff because the end is not, you know?

And so, and then now, like after everything came out, I'm like, maybe that stuff was just too convicting. That's why I need to be talking about it. In some cases, obviously not everybody was corrupt, but for those that were like, is that why you didn't talk about, you know, like basic morality?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So I guess the gospel was more hitting me at a heart level. Yeah, like afterwards, you know, because it's not like I hadn't heard it. I guess it's just like we were preoccupied with with other pursuits, you know, mainly eschatology.

Yeah. So, yeah. I don't know. And I'm still trying to, I feel like the gospel still hits me. It's really hard. Like I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that. You know, like I guess that, or not my mind.

I think it's more just like those, you know, like when you have those deep down, like gut feelings of like, I may be telling myself the truth, but deep down, I don't believe it.

You know, I feel like I still have that result. Yeah. Where you're at when you're at the top of the page, you know, if you're at the bottom of the page, you're at the top of this page.

And then I really, really like that. And I think it's really hard. And I went through similar things that you're describing for years afterwards. And I remember one period of time in which somebody would ask me what I believed.

You know, they're curious because I was in a call. And my answer that week may not have matched the answer the week before or the week after. It was changing so rapidly because as you're deconstructing and you're pulling out parts of your foundation, well, when you take a certain piece out, the entire foundation changes.

that it completely changes your core makeup and your core values. So, if you could give any advice to people who are either thinking about leaving IHOP or people who have left and they're coping with trying to enter the real world and understand what is normal after leaving IHOP?

What advice would you give them? You know, in some ways normal life is normal life because IHOP was a part of our lives, but it didn't necessarily, there's just different degrees at which we were all connected and involved.

Some people had jobs outside already and some people didn't, and those that were financially more dependent. on, you know, racing support through there, those are the ones I feel for the most because they're having a completely regroup and, you know, deconstruct whatever level, you know, all at the same time.

So, yeah, I guess like the most encouraging thing I could say is that you're not alone. You know, we're, we all may be scattered across the country now. I feel like I was a pretty transient place and most people aren't still there.

There are some that are still in Kansas City but there was just so many people that came through and went and left over the years. There's a lot of people that, you know, all feel the same way.

And even though we all feel like we're, or at least many of us, I know on myself feel like I'm just like processing alone on an island, you know, because everyone in my current life has no idea about my former life, you know.

We're not actually alone. There's a lot of other people that are experiencing, you know, the same feelings and they're not crazy and they're not weird. And that God is still there. You know, Jesus is still there through all of it.

And, you know, he's fully able to lead us through the process and he's not afraid of the process. Well, that's good advice. Thank you so much for getting on here. I'm sure you're gonna give a lot of people great encouragement and thank you for doing this.

Yeah, definitely, thanks for having me. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web, you can find us at William-Branham.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Thanks for watching. I'll see you guys next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.