Prophetic Manipulation: The Victims Step Forward - Detangling IHOPKC - Jed Hartley

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer. Jed it's good to be back. We for us it's been what is it now a couple weeks. We had a good Thanksgiving break and get away. I think these are scheduled out so this will come out later in December early January but I had a much needed break and I was able to get my

voice back. I had this fighting you know the winter colds that I usually get every year and spent the whole week just recovering and watching cartoons which is my my usually go-to past time but good to be back and hope you had a happy Thanksgiving and hope everybody has had a good Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas that's listening. Yeah well and I'm glad to be back. I'm glad that you got to watch your cartoons and I hope that was light and fun because we're about to get intense and serious over here so you know gives a good balance.

Yeah hi. This is a doozy of a topic to come back to off, be honest but I did I did have a good time off and that's that's how I recover and recuperate. I sit and I do things that other adults would be looking at me like what is John doing over there. In fact I I had somebody say that I'm embarrassed to say but anyway we we had a good break and we're getting back into one of the more explosive topics. I'm certain that this is what everyone has been waiting for us to talk about and yet and I'm going to try to say this delicately yet in my

opinion I understand how horrific this is I mean make no mistake this is awful this is evil this is criminal this well we'll let the courts decide if it was criminal. This is this is problematic and I understand why people would choose this as their leaving point but there it as we'll get into as we go further in this episode and probably the subsequent episodes it takes a real strategy of other similarly evil things to be able to even do this so it's not just we're we're going to be talking about the the issues with the women and we'll try to avoid redflat

for YouTube and the the audible channels, et cetera. We're going to get into that topic. But to be able to even do that, you have to set up the, it's like an alley-oop. You have to set up the play that you're going to make. And so he's doing in what it appears to be manipulation of all kinds and, you know, spiritual abuse, et cetera, that's leading up to what we're going to talk about.

Yeah, and I really appreciate how we've been going about telling the story. This is, yeah, this is getting into the details of Mike Bickle scandal, what happened, who came forward, who has publicly come forward so far. But those details can be confusing and it's a lot to keep track of. And if you don't have the background, like one of the central things throughout this entire story of the Mike Bickle abuse scandal has been the prophecy that he gave to several different young women about his own wife, Dine, and this prophecy that they will then be together.

And we will get into the specifics of that. But even just understanding and having that hit a way, you have to, for it to fully weigh on you, you have to understand the larger conversation of what it's like going, you know, being someone who's grown up in the prophetic community, whether at the international house prayer or in the Pentecostal community at large, knowing what prophecy means. And so I'm glad that we have been able to talk about some of the surrounding details to give people context. Yeah, because it's not just this one story. It's a much larger, much larger thing.

I think because of the subject matter, I'll start with some legal ease. Keep everybody safe who is talking, being me and you. But we are not legal experts. The courts of law will hopefully determine if it ever comes to that. What what happened? Who's right? Who's wrong? We're basically just piecing together a timeline of what happened based off of information that's either already out there or there are a few aspects of inside knowledge that we do have that, you know, it's our word against theirs. It would, you know, some of this might not stand up in a court of law. But

to keep everybody safe, we're just reporting what we can determine based off of the research that is already out there. And we'll just say it looks very bad. What's out there? And should it come to a court of law? They will make the decision whether or not there is guilt, etc. But we will just state the opinions that are already out there. Yeah, excellent. Good deal. So this is a complicated mess. I'm not going to lie. I've looked through various timeline. I actually have a timeline up on on my screen. I don't know if you...

I knew I had it or not, but there are many different ways and angles from which to look at this, but I think because of your connection to it, I'm going to let you determine where we go in when. So I'll let you kick it off. How did all of this begin to happen?

Yeah, so the way that I think is the most coherent way to tell the story in a shorter condensed time is to start with when the scandal began unfolding and then to tell the testimonies of those different individuals who, so we'll dip back into the 70s, 80s, 90s and all that sort of stuff, but I want to begin in March of 2023 because that's when the Mike Bickle scandal began to unfold.

There's been plenty of unnecessary scandals that international hospital has been involved in, even that Mike Bickle was involved in back during the earning, growing days and all that, but this is when when people talk about the fall of Mike Bickle, it started happening in March of 2023, just this, you know, just this last year. So it began with a woman who has identified herself as Jane Doe. She's come forward anonymously. I know who she is. Many of the people who are in the international hospital community know who she is, but she is attempted to remain anonymous,

although she's been docked several times by Mike Bickle supporters, but she is attempted to remain anonymous because all of this coming forward and speaking up about your own abuse is incredibly difficult, just in general. It is extremely difficult. It's compounded when you are speaking about abuse from a leader, specifically a religious leader. So I will be referencing her as Jane Doe throughout all of this, but in March of 2023, Jane Doe is listening to a podcast about Bill Cosby, and she hears testimonies from this podcast of women who were abused by Cosby, and she recognizes

patterns that Cosby did that were similar to things that Mike Bickle had done when she had first come to the International House of Prayer as teenager. And so she had wrestled with a lot of whether it be guilt or whether it be anger. She had wrestled with a lot of things in relationship to her experiences with Mike Bickle, but she has- I didn't have the language and understanding to really consider it abuse until she starts listening to this podcast about Del Cosby.

And I think it's really funny. You'll see a pattern as I tell this story. You'll see a pattern of women coming forward, and men coming forward later, but of those who are abused, finally being able to have language and understanding of their abuse by hearing the testimony of someone else who is abused.

So this whole story is a cascading story of victims finding their voice and then other victims hearing the testimony and recognizing their own abuse and coming forward. So it's sort of the snowballing effect.

And it makes sense from a more sinister perspective, why you have a lot of religious leaders trying to curtail and make sure victims never share their stories of abuse because it genuinely is one of these snowballing effects that once it is so difficult to recognize your own abuse and when you hear it from the perspective of someone else and then telling their testimony, that's when you can recognize it in your own life.

So this is what happens with Jane Doe and her story by listening to the podcast about Bill Cosby a few days later, some one of her friends who has never mentioned in any of these articles.

Oh, and by the way, I want to mention for anybody who is tracking and wants to really get into the details of all of this, Julie Royes of the Royes report and Judy Thomas of the Kansas City Star have written extensively about this scandal over the last year, year and a half, both are excellent journalists, Rebecca Hopkins with the Royes report as well.

All excellent journalists and they have written very extensively about all of this and so a lot of things that I will be referencing is what is already mentioned in the Royes report and the Kansas City Star.

I remember whenever the Bill Cosby scandal come out, it was powerful because people were able to understand and see patterns and when you really look at what happened with all of the Me Too movement, et cetera, I know there are a whole lot of people who don't really critically think about what was happening and they disparage anybody who is giving into the Me Too movement.

If you really understand that these were people who recognized patterns and they were seeing similar patterns across similar people and there were similarly bad things happening, it wasn't so much what happened that was powerful, it was that they were able to see the pattern.

So Bill Cosby, it was horrific. what he did. But because that pattern was exposed, a thousand voices just suddenly started speaking. Pattern was very, very, very powerful. And, you know, speaking of patterns, whenever I began to look at the international house of prayer, one of the things that made me really hone into it as it relates to the Brannum research was the fact that it was the same pattern of not the same exact story, but it was the same pattern of a story that made the two so similar that I recognized this was Brannumism 2.0 established by Paul Cain, right? You had this gut-wrenching sorrowful

story, backstory that was created with the Pat Bickel episode. And that was playing on people's emotions yet giving them hope combined with in-time themes and an in-time profit. I mean, if you take all of the key elements and milestones in the creation of IHOPKC and just look at them architecturally, avoid looking at, you know, the doctrines are not similar, the people are different, etc. Avoid all that. Just look at the pattern that was established and you see the exact framework for Brannumism. So this is Brannumism 2.0. Well, now you enter in the story with the Jane Doe and

apparently the subsequent Jane Does, they had helped establish a pattern. So in all of this, the pattern is really the key for identifying how big and explosive this was going to get. Yeah, that's so true. And I think that you have on two different fronts, you have on the abuse front and then use the sort of like religious kingdom that is being built for lack of a better word, the way that these men rise to power through their religious sort of storytelling through their prophetic manipulation, you having these grand prophecies and then the way that they then

abuse different individuals is so similar. It's all comes from the same playbook and by pointing out these particular testimonies and pointing out these playbooks. I mean, part of the reason that we are talking on this podcast or at least one of the reasons I'm talking on this podcast is to recognize these patterns for future abuse. You know, these are not patterns that are going to stop.

These are still things that different individuals are going to do and replicate. And so the more and more people can be aware of these testimonies and these patterns, the more and more they can see it for themselves and their own lives or in their family members lives.

Exactly. The patterns are powerful. So looking at the Jane Doe story, how was the pattern able to connect other people to understand that this was a this was a strategy. This was more than just a one-time thing. What what actually happened to connect it to? Initially, I don't think Jane Doe even thought it was something that was a pattern in Mike Bickle's life. I think that she thought she was isolated.

She was the only individual this ever happened to. But then shortly after she listens to this podcast about Bill Cosby, she has a friend come to her and ask her if anything had ever happened to her with Mike. That there she was asked did Mike ever do anything physically to you? And this friend told her that there was another woman who was involved with Mike and started sharing some of the same patterns. And that's when Jane Doe recognized, oh this isn't just true for me.

There are others out there. And so for the kind of key aspects of the story for Jane Doe, this is this is the story that she shares on the Roy's report and has shared with Kansas City Star. But there were certain behaviors that Mike was doing. First, he was I mean, he was really grooming her from the very beginning. She came in to the international house prayer. And as she did, he began giving her her prophecies in the Roy's report. She wrote, he gives me the biggest word of my life. It was, you're not just an estuary, you're going to lead thousands of esters. So Mike gives

this young woman, she was 19 when she came to the international house prayer. He gives her this very specific and intimate word that is from, so he's using his position of power to give her this sort of specific word. In the Roy's report, she writes, or she, Julie Roy's and Rebecca Hopkins, right, a few weeks later, Bickel called Doe from Asia to say the Lord spoke to him about her.

She said, this time though, he sounded drunk. He begins, this is Jane Doe. He begins telling me that the Lord has spoken to him and that Diane is going to die and that we're going to get married.

She said, and he's talking to me and I'm thinking, is he drunk? And he did start talking about the alcohol that was in this fridge and that he had been drinking. So Jane Doe gives this story of Mike Bickel calling her and telling her that this prophecy, that the prophecy that we sort of spoken about, was she says that Mike Bickel said to her.

are probably a hundred different times that Diane is going to die, Diane being Mike Pickle's wife, that Diane is going to die and that this would open the door for them, for Jane Doe and Mike to be together in the future. So we have these prophecies, these very manipulative prophecies that Mike Pickle is using to gain intimacy with Jane Doe very early on. He puts Jane Doe up in an apartment, he gives her a key to his office, they engage in what Jane Doe said, sexual interactions, and then he takes her on a trip to Paris. There's more than just her,

but there was this trip that Mike Pickle leads to Paris that's some sort of religious trip and he brings several young women with him, including Jane Doe. This is where Jane Doe here, I'm just going to read what is written in the Royce report. In Paris, Jane Doe is in her hotel room, Mike Pickle splurges and gets hotel rooms for each of them. She's in her hotel room and then she's approached by Mike one of these nights. This is now quoting, he reportedly didn't tell her where he'd been, but she said he infited her to eat alone with him at a restaurant. He also said he'd

splurged on everyone having their own hotel rooms, she said. At the restaurant, she said he ordered her a couple of rounds of cocktails at the time, Doe was 20 and Pickle was 43. After dinner, she said he took her to an alley and kissed her full-on. The next thing I remember, I was waking up in my hotel room the next morning. She said, I definitely blacked out. I remembered I was clothed, that's all I remember, and just being very disoriented. So here's one of our first instances of sexual abuse, where Doe believes, and then later she is expounded on this in other articles, but Doe believes

that she was drugged by Pickle during that trip. Then she doesn't remember exactly what happened, but she believes that she was abused on that night. She was drugged and abused. So this is sort of the framework of what is beginning to happen with Jane's store story. There's a lot more to it.

I encourage you to read the different reports on it, because she is spoken in more detail of it. But she shares these details that are very clear indications of abuse, of grooming tendencies, of the way that Mike Bickle has set her apart very similar to the whole bridegroom, sort of rhetoric of setting her apart, preparing her for them to be together later, using prophecy to do this, using sort of his role as a prophetic authority to isolate her, and to give her the sort of, to gain intimacy with someone who is a very young person.

She was a teenager at the time when this started, and Mike Bickle was a grown 40-year-old man who had children and who was married at the time. So that's sort of the first story in of Jane Doe. It's really incredible, you know, to think somebody's watching Bill Cosby and seeing and identifying what happened to the victims in Bill Cosby's instance, and then recognizing that the next day I woke up and all of this was much the same.

I also encourage people, if you haven't read the Royce reports, you can go through and you can understand, piece together, what happened much, much more deeply than we're allowed to even say here, because of the YouTube environment, et cetera. There's so much, and so many intricate moving parts too, it kind of weaves you through those. But I can't even imagine having gone through that. So in my head, as I'm piecing this together, you have the grooming instance that you're talking about, and then you have the, you know, the, if there was a drug involved or whatever, you had

that involved, right? Prior to that, there's a different kind of grooming that has to take place before any of this can happen. And that is the prophetic grooming. You have to, you really have to convince the person that you are more superior to them spiritually than they are, that you're up on this higher plane, that they're on this lower plane, and that literally everything that you say might be coming from God, you have to convince them that the words coming out of your mouth might be the words directly from God, and then they get in this weird spiritual days so they accept

everything at face value. And at that point, you've been groomed to completely disable critical thought. So this is what happened. She was, she was apparently in that state, and then begins the grooming that you're talking about, which is, you know, that's a, a whole new level of grooming.

So you've got all of these intricate parts coming together. Where does the story go from here? Yeah, so okay, so from here, Jane Doe has a story in that she's trying to figure out what to do with it, you know, she's in August of 2012.

I mean, three, she hasn't come forward to the Royce report. This article hasn't come out yet, but she is remembering sort of all of these different experiences and recognizing after a few decades after the experience, she's starting to come to terms with it being abuse.

She always knew that there was something wrong about it, but again, because of the way that it was secret and quiet and she was not really a full adult when this happened to her, there's a lot of questions of, is this wrong, is this abuse, is this manipulation, and she isn't really able to come to terms with this until the summer of 2023, and then she's then, as she's coming to terms with it, then there's the next question of what do I do with it?

So she tells her husband and then this is when if people have been tracking the story at all, this is when a first sort of advocacy group arises where Jane Doe approaches different individuals.

I'm gonna throw out a lot of names, I don't want to bog people down with the many different names, but she contacts Duane and Jennifer Roberts, Michael Sullivan, and then eventually Alan Hood as well, and Alan is very, I mean, all of those individuals, I know really well because these are the people that I grew up with, these were the leaders of my community that I grew up with, and so they were all important figures at the International House Prayer.

Alan being one of the most significant, I mean, he was really pickles, right hands, man, and the second in command at the International House Prayer for most of my childhood, and by the time this happened in 2023, I think that he had branched off and been a part of his own ministry, but these are, Jane Doe comes forward and talks to these different leaders, and this is when this advocacy group is first formed, where they know her, they believe her, Jane Doe has been a well-respected member of the International House Prayer Community for decades, you know, people believe

that she's telling the truth, and when she starts telling her story, she tells it specifically to Michael Sullivan, who, as he's hearing the story, it rings a bell with him, because he's heard a similar story before.

Specifically, he had heard the prophecy that Diane was going to die, and that when she did, that that would open up the door for Mike and Jane Doe. have a relationship, Michael Sullivan had heard that before.

And this is where, so for the audience here, this is part of the reason I have not told this story and we haven't gone into detail is because I wanted to make sure that I could tell part of this story.

And I have since talked with the individual involved and she feels comfortable with me sharing some more details. She's still in the story she's always referred to as TH, but TH is my mother and my mom was one of the other individuals who came forward about abuse from Michael.

And specifically about the prophecy, the prophetic word that Michael had shared to Jane Doe is the same prophetic word that he had also shared to TH, this woman who is my mother. So Michael Sullivan had heard my mom and my father had divorced in 2015 when they divorced.

My mom went through a lot of counseling with different religious leaders, including Michael Sullivan. At some point in those counseling sessions, she shared with Michael Sullivan that Michael had given her that word when she was younger.

And Michael Sullivan didn't know what to do with it during that time. It wasn't the topic of the conversation, you know, it was about the divorce and processing through that. My mom shares with Michael Sullivan back in 2015.

So when Jane Doe comes to him and gives this very specific story of this prophetic word, Michael Sullivan immediately knows it's true because these women are credible anyway. But when you have two independent testimonies of an extremely bizarre story, like Mike Bickle has said that Diane is going to die, like the prophecy of the death of someone's own wife, when those match up, it's a pretty good indication that there is not deception going on, especially if these two individuals weren't coordinating at all.

So this is, this kind of is what really starts the ball rolling is that it's not just Jane Doe coming forward, now it is corresponding with another testimony of abuse that Michael Sullivan has heard.

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Well, I want to thank your mother for allowing us to talk about this because that's a huge step for both her and for us. You know, that's important and I want to thank her for that.

I also want to hone in on something that you mentioned with Michael Sullivan. Michael Sullivan, as you probably know, had an interview on my podcast and we talked through various things. And I received all kinds of feedback from that.

Oh, really? You can imagine, I mean, whenever people feel like they're victimized, then they start, it becomes, I hate to use the term because, because of how it's used in politics right now, but it becomes a witch hunt and you start pointing fingers without really thinking through the finger pointing, but what happened as I understand it and to the best of my knowledge unless somebody corrects me, what Michael Sullivan did was the biblical mouth of two or three witnesses.

He heard it once. You really can't yet act on once unless there's something to act upon. And yeah, from what, as I understand it, there wasn't yet that it was on the cusp, but it wasn't yet.

But then when you have two stories like this, now you really have something to act upon. And from what I can gather based off of the pieces of information that I do have, he did the appropriate thing and took the appropriate actions and started, you know, started raising his voice, that's, that's what should happen.

Now, could he have done it earlier, you know, I don't have all of the facts, I don't know, but based off of the way that I understand it, I don't think he had enough to act, but he was still in the investigation stages.

So that you really have to think through how all of that works, especially in church leadership. It's really, really complicated, but anyway, let you continue that I wanted to, wanted to inject that. Yeah, totally.

And I, and I, this whole question of like believing the testimony of these women's that come forward, as we go through in the story, we'll realize that that is, becomes the battle here is that these women...

are attempted to Michael and his team attempt to tarnish the reputations of these different women and attempt to deny and wreak havoc on their testimonies, and I am wholeheartedly someone who believes that you need to believe these stories when people come forward and that when someone shares in the testimony of abuse, you know, it is always always should be taken seriously and always always that the honest should be on belief and not suspicion regardless of who it's about, just because it is so difficult to come forward, it is so difficult to share stories of abuse most of the time victims themselves don't even

really fully understand their abuse. So I have seen so many people silenced and I definitely think that if you ask Michael Sullivan, I think that he probably wishes that he would have been way more proactive when he heard my mom's story in 2015. It wasn't really about, she wasn't coming forward with any contention towards Mike Bickel, but that should have raised some red flags and I personally wish that Michael Sullivan had done a lot more, I wish Alan Hood had done a lot more, I wish a lot of the different individuals that I had grown

up with were way better than what they were. That being said, I am so thankful for their response since 2023 on because it took maybe a while to get the ball rolling, but this advocacy group that came around Jane Doe and came around my mother never, never blinked with any of this. They fully supported these women and had that not happened, had they been individuals with less character, with less who were just like some of the other villains that we're going to be talking about here. Jane Doe's story could have probably been buried. My mom's

story could have been buried and this could have never come to light, but Dwayne and Jennifer, Michael Sullivan, Alan Hood, whether a little later than what it should have been, they finally did recognize that hey, this abuse was going on and they chose to stand up to it and I'm so, so appreciate that of them. But to keep going with the story, we now then have my mom's story, which basically just cooperates a lot of the story, a lot of the testimony of Jane Doe.

My mom, her story wasn't from her perspective, she... really wanted to share her story to cooperate Jane Doe's story. She didn't herself at first even see what Mike had done as abuse even after these times. The big thing was the red flag of, hey, he gave me this prophetic word when I was pretty young about Diane Dying and about them being together. And so that was sort of cooperating. The story that's kind of initially all that my mom was sharing. As more people came forward, she started recognizing more of the abusive patterns. My mom and Mike Bickle actually dated when my mom was 15 and Mike was 20.

Before Mike had married Diane Bickle, so my mom was really there at the beginning. And Mike Bickle was the youth pastor at my mom's church during that time. And my grandmother, actually, they stopped dating because my grandmother thought that the age gap was too big.

And it wasn't that sort of gray area where he's a young man, he's 20, so she's 15. That's a lot of people, there are a lot of people who have different perspectives. Personally, I think that that's way too big of an age gap. But you know, I think that there's always going to be some sort of abuse and manipulation there, not to mention that he was the youth pastor. So there were sort of these inappropriate patterns that were being started really from the get-go. And I think that now, as more stories have come forward, my mom has looked back and seen a lot of his behaviors

very early on as very manipulative, as very coercive, as very grooming, just trying to really attach and latch on to a young, impressionable individual. So she kind of echoes some of these same stories from Jane Doe. What had happened is that my mom dated Mike when she was a teenager. She then left, or they broke up, she left for college, Mike left for college, Mike married Diane, and then fast-forward six, seven years, Mike Bickle calls up my mom and says that he was thinking about her and kind of invites her into the Kansas City Fellowship community and tells her about

some of these pre-i-hop church doings and everything that's going on there. And my mom gets sucked right back in to the world. That's when even though Mike Bickle is already married, at this point, he has two children. As soon as my mom gets involved in the community, Mike Bickle starts going on these lines.

walks with my mom and starts attempting to initiate a relationship with her. There's one story that my mom tells of how they were out walking and he had been on this long trip and he was saying that his back was really hurting and he wanted her to start massaging his back and stuff.

And she was like, I'm not going to do that. And so he kind of makes these advances and she kind of rebuffs them and then he tells her the prophecy. And I've talked with my mom about this too of like, how was that not a red flag? Like, how was that not an immediate

sign that something way wrong was going on? And she's been really honest and I've so enjoyed the last year talking with her and getting, she's been so vulnerable and honest and being like, I didn't, I should have been more, that should have raised more of a red flag in me. But it, it just felt weird. It felt like she thought it was very isolated. She thought he had slipped up because they had been dating when they were young. She thought he was just getting his wires crossed and he made a mistake. He gave this prophecy to her, but he was never going to do it again and

nothing ever came about it. And then quickly afterwards, my mom ended up marrying my father. And so that kind of shut the door on that. And she kind of packed it away and tried not to think about it.

But it definitely affected her, her, her, her telling her full story is something that I'm not going to attempt to do. But it was, it was clearly a very impactful series of events and I'm glad that she has now been able to see it as abusive after, after hearing more of the stories and seeing the patterns that he demonstrated with other women. So I think that is a very important point that people hone in on. And remember, I'm talking about there's a, another type of grooming that happens before this. Yeah. And we're talking about patterns. We're talking about establishing patterns.

So here we have a person who is pretending to be a prophet. And this is happening long before IHOPKC even came to fruition. So here's a person who is grooming people by claiming that he is a prophet. And he is honing his skills of how to spiritually groom people. So he's doing this with your mother. And she's a witness to that fact. I think that's really significant because it establishes a pattern of spiritual abuse that also coincides with the same patterns that are being established in the Royce Report. Yeah. And you can see a sort of evolution with it too. My mom

talks about how Mike Bickle was with or when Mike Biggles 20 am, my mom is 15, he's doing some of these patterns, but they're not the same. It becomes very different, even just the difference between a 20-year-old interacting with a 15-year-old versus a four-year-old in interacting with a 19-year-old.

There's different power dynamics at play, and so you can see the sort of grooming behaviors get started, and he kind of hones in on them as he gets older. Yeah, it absolutely establishing that pattern along with the other patterns that are, like I said, in the Royce Report, it is hugely significant.

Now, I've read through the Royce Report, and like I said, I've got different timelines that I'm looking up as we talk, because I wasn't there, I'm not as familiar as you. However, reading through the Royce Report and understanding the multiple women who have stepped forward, for me, that was significant, because it established the pattern of what others are saying was sexual immorality that was happening, along with the spiritual immorality that was happening.

So let's talk a little bit about one of the other witnesses that came forward. Yeah, so the two women, and there's other women who are involved that I have not mentioned, and that are not mentioned much in the reporting yet, because again, sharing your testimony coming forward is a very difficult thing to do.

But so Jane Doe comes forward, my mother comes forward. This is the instance in which the advocacy group contacts Mike Bickle and contacts the IHOP staff, and this is when everything should have changed.

Everything should have been, it was very clear, it was that there was this pattern, there were testimonies that were, even if you don't give any credence to these women who are coming forward, the fact that they're testimonies.

Support one another gives plenty of evidence and credence to it. Yeah, IHOP didn't respond that there were so much questions, there's all the sort of attacks against these different women

because there were an anonymous, there was a lot of public attacks against them that would not have been viable, had their names been for because it just was silly if you knew who the actual people were.

But because they were anonymous, there was this sort of ability to sort of keep everything gray and nebulous, and so for several months, we were in this sort of pattern where, It just I really didn't know if anything was going to change if it was going to be all kind of Squashed if there was never going to be an independent investigation. There was some investigation that they said they Did and and found no wrong doing we can talk about that later next week of of I hops response to it But for several months there was sort of this very nebulous are these women telling the truth is this a

Campaign against Mike Bickle led by Alan Hood and former disgruntled employees and did they manufacture these testimonies to these women who even Exist there's a lot of this sort of confusion intentionally built into this situation And all of that broke when a third woman come came forward So the third woman her name is Tammy Woods and she came forward Think in January of this year wow it feels so long ago that this happened I mean when this is being shared it might actually be right around the one year day of of when Tammy Woods came forward but

Tammy Woods shares and basically cooperates she tells the exact same story that Jane Doe told and that TH my mother told but Tammy Tammy was a babysitter for the pickles Tammy was not in Kansas City. She was in St. Louis and just the rough Details of her story is that when she was 14 years old Mike Bickle she was the babysitter for the pickles and Bickle began to

Make advances towards her he started treating her like you would treat someone you're dating you know He took her out on dates. He sort of had these secret rendezvouss with her and he began grooming um grooming her during that time And from 14 years old until really Honestly throughout her entire life Bickle had this sort of extremely toxic relationship where he was emotionally sexually physically Abusing her and manipulating her totally stunted her entire childhood her teenage years Her early adulthood years And that story I mean honestly people should just

Read her entire account which is in both the Royce report and there's a great article and the Kansas City Star, where she gives a lot more in depth details of what that looked like, of what the grooming looked like. But she comes forward, and she didn't want to come forward, even four months previously, when everything was first coming out, when Jane Doe's story was first coming out, she still was a defender. Tammy was a defender of Mike Bickle, because it just became so ingrained in her, a lot of those grooming techniques just became solidified in her development, and even into her 50s, she had these beliefs, this sort of defense

mechanisms for Mike, and it wasn't until Jane Doe's testimony came out that she started to see her own story. She started to recognize the abuse that was going on, and it took several months, but eventually she sort of worked through and worked up the courage to speak out herself, and when she did, it was extremely powerful because she did use her name, and not that it wasn't powerful that Jane Doe didn't use her name, or anything like that, but it was more Jane Doe comes and speaks forward, and she doesn't share her name, and she uses the Jane Doe that should have

been enough, everybody behind the scenes knew who this person was, verifying the story was true, but because there was anonymity, it was sort of gray and nebulous, there were so many, I remember seen so many Facebook accounts and Twitter accounts of people defending Mike Pickle during that time, just saying the most insane, bizarre stuff, saying that it was all fabricated, even my father was one of the individuals who was trying to defend Pickle during this time, and again, I think that next session we can get into a lot of this, but all of this sort of conversation is being had that

intentionally trying to clutter, trying to confuse, trying to dismiss the testimonies of these two women who had come forward, and then when Tammy Woods comes and shares her testimony, that was the damn breaking, everything switched after that, you saw a bunch of people who were Mike Pickle defenders suddenly delete their Facebook accounts, delete all their previous history, you had a bunch of individuals, Rick Joyner, other individuals who had defended Mike, it suddenly became real when that third woman came forward, and yeah, so the testimony of the Of everything that has happened with Mike Bickle in this entire scandal, I mean it all rests

on the back of these three women. These three women coming forward had they not have the courage to do it. None of this would have come out and these are not the only victims of Mike.

I want to be very clear on that. There are many other victims of Mike too, but these are the three women who came forward and I believe others will come forward too, but like I said, it is incredibly different for a cool thing to do and just on a personal note, I am so proud of my mom.

I'm so proud of her coming forward and her speaking up and this last year has been obviously extremely difficult in relationship to my relationship with my father and seeing a lot of like how he is responded, but you know, whatever respect I lost from my father, I've gained twice as much respect from my mother during that time because she really is his brave and incredible and I feel that same respect towards Jane Doe and Tammy because it was not easy.

It was never easy to come forward and speak up, but they did and I believe that people are starting to recognize now that their story is true and now there is an actual independent investigation that is being led against the international hospital prayer and I feel like this is just the beginning of the story, but after Tammy spoke out, it felt like the ties changed and it started to, started to feel like, okay, this is going to work that the story, the truth is going to come out.

It's a big deal and your mother is brave, I'm thankful for her and others and whoever steps forward next, I'm thankful for them as well. I too heard that there are other victims that may be coming forward soon, so hopefully that's the case and hopefully they find some peace after everything that has happened.

I really want to talk about next time and go a bit deeper into the defense mechanisms and all of this. I think that's really critical to understand because as I said before, you have the spiritual grooming and then you have the grooming that the victims are talking about, the spiritual grooming led to the defense mechanisms because if you can groom a person to shut off all of the critical thinking and think that you're a voice piece for God, well, they're going to give you the benefit of the doubt in almost every scenario and we saw that in branemism,

but the structure that was created with the latarane movements, the five-fold ministry pyramid of hierarchy of authoritarian control, that cascaded down. You had the apostles and prophets. at the top of the tier, they could never do any wrong. But it carried down, too, because your ministers, even your rank and fall ministers, had superiority over the congregation in similar ways, much like the shepherding movement, which I think developed into some of this.

And interestingly, we're going to soon be diving deeper into the shepherding movement, and not many people are aware, but John Limber was working with a lot of the shepherding movement. As all of this was being built out and established. So there's so many moving parts to this puzzle as we try to unravel it. But anyway, thank you for this and tell your mother. I said thank you for being able to come forward and let us share parts of her story. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for thanks for having me as always, John. Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to have

more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branham.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Audible.