Faith Power and Controversy: Post Latter Rain Confusion

Music Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org And with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of Christian Gospel Church.org, and the author of Come Out Of Her My People.

And Charles, today we're getting into one of the fun topics for me. Fun, I should say embarrassing because this is largely describing my life whenever we get into the return ministry. And you know, by extension, it is really when you follow all of its logical, its doctrines all the way out to their logical conclusion.

This is really just an extension of the deity cult, which is you should find no surprise that many members of the deity cult believe this doctrine. And I think you and I pointed it out during our last series. It wasn't so restricted to just simply, Brandham might follow us.

This notion of deity cult and Brandham's deism actually spread through many people who would leave the prosperity gospel movements and you know, they're a deep part of latter reign. We're talking men like T.L. Osborne who at William Brandham's after his death, he gave a speech and said this was God and human flesh. Much like my grandfather did during his resignation speech, he said, William Brandham was God tabernacle than human flesh. Well, when you think of God in a Christian setting, you think of Jesus and we think of Jesus, you think of the resurrection. Well, these people were thinking of the resurrection, but not of the same God that other Christians believe.

Oh, you're right, John. It is a very interesting thing, isn't it? And it's interesting how these things evolved over time. And I certainly look forward to chatting about some of that. And it's great to be Jack back, John too. I'm glad to look forward to picking up where we left off last time.

Last time around what we were in the middle of examining the first major schism in the message community that happened after William Brandham died. And there are four major things that contributed to this first schism. And it wasn't any single one of the four things that directly caused it, but it was combined weight of all four of those issues.

It was just too much. And in each one started to cause people to decide one way or the other in the schism. So the first four things, the first of those four things, we already talked about in the last episode.

And that actually started just before William Brown died. Before his death, the message community was already divided into two factions. There was the anti-church order faction, which was opposed to expanding the implementation of the aspects of church order that restricted the gifts of the spirit.

And then there was the pro-church order faction that was in favor of basically implementing these private rooms in the back of churches where all the gifts of the spirit had to happen. And so the community was divided along those lines already.

When William Brown had introduced church order, that piece of church order starting in 1963. And you remember when he did that, well, the community is already geographically divided. That came just after they've all moved to Arizona.

So the deity people are primarily in Arizona, the Elijah people are primarily in Jeffersonville area. And you've got that whole geographic division happening. You've also got this split kind of happening over church order.

And it's sort of breaking down along those same lines. And so as that's going on, right, after William Brown finally dies in 1965, so two years after that, those two factions, the anti-church order faction and the pro-church order faction, they start to coalesce into the first two sex of the message.

And what we're going to talk about today is the second of the four issues that led to that schism. And like you already mentioned, John, is the return ministry beliefs, right? Surprise, prize. That does sound pretty controversial.

I'm sure it outsiders, right? And in a nutshell, the return ministry beliefs is the belief that William Brown will resurrect from the grave in order to fulfill his unfinished prophecies and unfinished work, right?

Because obviously he died and all things were not restored. Obviously he died and there was no rapturing faith. Obviously he died and had not really introduced Christ at a second coming, right? So all these things happen and besides that, more of his own personal prophecies.

So when William Brown have died within just a few days of his death, some of his followers began to develop the idea that he was going to raise from the dead and fulfill all of this unfinished work.

And as we start to peel that onion today, I think the first thing we should point out is the reason why the return ministry beliefs got started, right? Why? And the reason why is really truly because of William Brown's unfulfilled prophecies, right?

You know, when William Brown had died, most everyone in the message was keenly aware that there were prophecies he had not fulfilled, there were things he had said, even thus said the Lord he was going to do and he never did them, right?

And so William Brown's death basically exposed him as a false prophet. And so everyone was aware of that and they had to do something, they had to do something. to repair the ideological system to account for his death and give an explanation to all these unfinished prophecies to hold it all together, right?

Because a lot of people began to wake up right there in that window of time. A lot of people began to wake up and some of them even left the message. Bank Woods is one of the probably the most famous examples.

I'd say he's probably one of the highest ranking people in the message who woke up and left in that period. Bank Woods, right? Bank Woods at that time was running what became spoken word publications.

Bank Woods was at that time senior trustee of the brand of tabernacle, okay? He was like one step from William Brannum in terms of power in the organizations in the central institution. He woke up and he left shortly after William Brannum died.

We're gonna talk more about that in our next episode, John. But there was a whole lot of things happening and they had to, they needed to patch the whole to explain how William Brannum could die and the religion could carry on.

And so the return ministry belief was a really easy way for them to keep the whole ideology internally coherent instead of saying he made all these false prophecies. They could say he would raise from the dead to fulfill them, right?

It's real easy, right? Yeah, he's dead. His prophecies are not failed. He's gonna come back and finish him all. Therefore, he's not a false prophet. So all the prophecies that he left unfinished was really what drove that and there was a lot, right?

There was the tent vision. There was the India vision. There was the brown bear vision. There was the all ride this trail again dream, right? All these different prophecies and visions and things that William Brannum was supposed to personally fulfill.

And so those things were all front and center in their mind back then because a whole lot of their religion, I mean, the early message community lived and died by that tent vision. You know what John, I do.

That was the hopes and dreams of the entire movement and when he died, they had to find a way to explain it. And so I think it's really safe to say that all those unfulfilled prophecies played a key role in the return ministry belief in why it initially developed or I should say maybe at least say the need for it to develop, right?

And then it was initially just a quick fix to patch all of the holes that William Brannum's death created in message ideology. And in the first few months after William Brannum died, I'd say something like 80's and 90's percent based on my knowledge, 80 to 90% of the message community was at that time believing in return ministry.

And the question I'm going to ask all throughout this podcast is did they really believe it? Because that's the question that honestly has been burning on my mind since I left this cult. I grew up in the return ministry sect.

We were taught in private, it's kind of weird and I'll get into that in a minute. We were taught behind closed doors basically by all leaders of this sect, whenever you would visit their houses or go out to eat, they'd get real.

Quiet and they would start talking about the return of William Brannum, the resurrection of Brannum. And they'd say it's going to be such a secret event. Many people in the message, Charles, they're going to miss it because they don't believe the return ministry.

They're going to get quiet like this. Some churches are going to miss it. Junior Jackson's church is going to miss it. And they would say that there's going to be this great tent and it's going to be all over the news, how people are coming here to this great tent.

But it would be very difficult to get there. And I can remember this clearly, Charles, I was about 16 the first time it really sunk in and this guy leaned over to me during one of these blessed conversations and he said, John, it's going to be very difficult to get into that tent.

You be sure you make it. If you don't make it, your soul will be damned. And so their entire salvation in the sect was tied to being in this tent because if you got in the tent, the mythology went, there's this little room in the corner of the tent and you would go in there and you would get your new body and then you'd be raptured into heaven.

That's how this worked. And they said, at the end of this, everybody in the tent disappears, everybody has raptured and the world suddenly realizes that William Brannum was the prophet for the age. And so the focus, as you can clearly tell, was on William Brannum, not on Jesus Christ.

There was no aspect of this mythology that where we're in Jesus Christ was the focus of the rapture. It was all through William Brannum. But here's the problem, Charles, and the reason why this question burns in me.

Voice of God recordings, as you and I have discussed, was largely comprised of members of the deity called. And as such, many of them believed this nonsense or they said they did. But many of most of this nonsense, you can also find in the recordings themselves.

And this organization really has one job, Charles. That's to spread the quote unquote gospel of William Brannum around the world, yet they don't translate it. And you and I, we've authored books and you and I have also made use of the technologies that exist today.

It takes approximately, what does it take for you five minutes to translate an entire book into Spanish or some other language? They have the same tools we have, Charles. And yet still today, after what is it now, 60 years, these guys have not translated all sermons to other languages.

And those sermons contain this nonsense that they're saying. So many people overseas that don't speak English, they're largely unaware that this is even a thing. So my question to you, do they really even believe this?

I think John that it's a mix. We'll talk about this more. So I think that some of the leaders, it was entirely a scam to keep the thing going. That's what I think. They needed to keep it together.

That was their quick fix. That's what I think that that some of the leaders it was they never believed that it was always a scam Rank and file though. Oh, yeah rank and file They believed it so much that some of them even tried to disinterr William Brown's body and install a telephone Kate in there to have him phone out right like they really believed it right they really believed it, but You know, but the leaders I know I think a lot of the leaders didn't know that that would be my personal take on it all

But it's it's crazy. It is crazy, but back then when he first died. Yeah at the very first I'm gonna say the first month that he died 80 to 90% of the people in the message Believed it or claimed to believe it But let me explain how the return ministry belief started to play into the first big schism in the message In our last episode, right? I already explained how you had the anti-church order and the pro-church order faction in the message When William Brown have died and it that was basically split 50 50 the message

You know within within the few months of William Brown's death is basically 50 50 of the message community breaks down along those lines Well the pro-church order faction John which the deity cult was also in they totally accepted the return ministry beliefs. They totally accepted him Return minister of beliefs took off, but but two key leaders two of the key leaders in the anti-church order faction Rejected return ministry right away right out of the gate. They rejected it Worm and Neville he started to organize his supporters to reject return ministry as soon as he first heard about it

And he's actually doing that on the sidelines of the visitation of William Brown as funeral He's organizing his supporters go out there and and argue against them. No, no return ministry, right? That's what's happening and And that's really really important because in 1965 as William Brown him dies Orman Neville is The second most senior minister in the message and when William Brown him dies Orman Neville is the most senior minister in the message So you know from from you know our vantage point sitting here You almost got a wipe all of that away and go back to that day that day when William Brown him dies

The most senior minister minister is Orman Neville You know, it's not your grandfather. It's not Raymond Jackson. It's not Perry Green. I mean Perry Green's a nobody right at Biscoll No one even heard of him right back then orman Neville was the most senior miss minister in the message and he's saying No no return ministry no and all but he's He's combating The overwhelming majority of the message community though who's whispering it and wanting it and so when he comes out against return ministry He gradually sways a whole lot of people over to his side to agree with him

And he's basically what what puts the brakes on return ministry and keeps it from becoming a totally universal view in the message. Had Orman Neville not did what he did at the funeral, the entire message would be return ministry beliefs today. But he put the brakes on it at the funeral, and basically over the course of a couple years leading up to this schism, he successfully pushed back return ministry beliefs and shifted it instead of being 80 to 90 percent of the message. He shifts it back to his more like 50-50 and it starts to break down right

along those same pro-church, or anti-church, or the lines of the people. And I'll point out at this stage too, John. My family was in the group that originally was return ministry, change their minds because of men like Orman Neville and ended up in the anti-return ministry. So my family is still at the bram tabernacle through all of this back in the day. So as Orman Neville, he starts to organize against return ministry. Let me read you a quote to that effect. And this quote is from Raymond Jackson. And I have a quote and lots more in my book if people want a deeper dive any of this. But I'm going to read you this

quote. This is from Raymond Jackson. He gave this quote in 2001. He said, that evening me and my wife, we went up to Cute's funeral home and we went in. And I was met at the door by a young fellow from the bram tabernacle. He said, Brother Jackson, brother Neville wants to see you. So I went in. Brother Neville was sitting in Cute's office. He said, Brother Juni, have you heard what's going on? I said, no. He said, it's going on through this funeral home. He says, brother Brannum is going to raise from the dead. And he said, I want

you to know I will not put up with that. Well, I said, don't worry about me. I will not stand for that either. But low and behold, when I come back out of the office at Cute's funeral home, the wife and I go to see brother Brannum in the coffin, right there. And after that, I later went out into the hallway. And that's where I ran in face to face with Dr. Lee Veil. And the first thing he said to me was, brother Juni, he's going to rise again. I said, no. So there's what's happening, John. It's happening right at the visitation.

It's happening at the funeral. Okay. It's, or it is, it's, it's loggerheads right there. So that's what's happening. And you can see how the factions are starting to line up, right? Lee Veil, who's full cessationist at this point, he's over on the William Browns going to rise again side of things. But then you see like Raymond Jackson or Manavila on the other. And so as everything unfolds, that is really how it all breaks down. The anti-church order faction, which pre-existed, they push back and reject the return ministry beliefs. And the pro-church order faction accepts it. And so return ministry through this gets

added to the list of the things that divide these two factions that are going to form the first sex of the message. And after William Brown and dies, right? It kind of, they, they become the anti-church order anti-return ministry faction.

And then the pro-church order, pro-return ministry faction, right? And now we've got two significant issues, you know, starting to divide these factions. And I'd just like to remind everyone because we've mentioned it, even in this episode, this is a snapshot of what it was like at the end of the post-World War II healing revival.

This was the culmination of that revival because by and large, many people believe that William Branham and or his message and or his ministry was the second coming of Christ. And you and I had this discussion offline that I think it's gonna surprise a lot of people.

Many people who were in this movement believe that there were three comings of Christ and that this whole post-World War II healing revival was actually the second coming. And so whenever you hear the term second advent and you're not in one of these churches, you know, you're looking for the second coming of Jesus Christ, well, these people weren't.

And so there's this big difference. William Branham started saying that, I wanna say it was early as 1949, he believed that there were three comings of Christ. And so by and large, the movement accepted this and the events that you're talking about, the funeral, the memorial service, all of these events that were happening after Branham's death, there were key figures that would end up leading the charismatic movement in this.

So as the post-World War II healing revival is dying and what you and I called the message, it was shifting into become this other thing. This is really, this is the epicenter of all of that happening.

You're right, John. And the message takes the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout in First Cessalonians. They take that verse. They take the verse in Luke about the days of the, you know, the day in which the Son of Man will be revealed that coming.

They take a few verses like that and they create a, they create a coming of Jesus between the first advent and the second advent. So they create three comings of Jesus, right? And I know in the churches I come from, by and large, we would avoid saying the phrase second coming and we would just call it the coming.

Because yeah, we believed that, you know, basically there was the coming of the advent there was the 1963 or the William Brannum ministry coming, you know, when the Lord descended from heaven with the shout and every sect of the message has their own kind of nuanced way to explain this.

But somehow or another, the Lord returned in around 1963 something to do with the cloud, something to do something spiritual. Yeah, and then you have, you know, the future coming when you were expected his bodily return, right?

And yes, a lot of people thought William Brannum, somehow or another, it varies, played some critical role in all of this. as the messenger of the covenant, you know, as this John the Baptist to forerun the second coming, right? Well, he forerun the second coming now. He's dead 70 years.

And you know what I mean? Like they've, it became all the more important for the message believer to have this mystical 1963 coming. Because without it, the whole thing doesn't make sense anymore, right? Not at all. John the Baptist came to forerun him and he never came.

But wait, he did. It was the cloud, right? So it's a lot of this stuff took a little while to be in a vent after he died, right? Hence it's far easier to just blanket say, oh, he's going to rise from the dead, right? So when when when you brought him first died, I would say 80 to 90% of the message community was believing in return ministry. I know my own family believed it at first John and so did quite a few people in the churches I come from. But gradually Orman Neville and Raymond Jackson and preachers in that faction convinced a lot of the people to give up the idea. And there

was a lot of active preaching to condemn the return ministry stuff, okay? Orman Neville is preaching against return ministry at the Brannum Tabernacle, John publicly. Think about that, okay? That's happening at the Brannum Tabernacle, you know, in 1966, in 1967 and 1968 before your grandfather came back, right? So let that so you come, right? The return ministry people won. They got the Tabernacle, right? But imagine that 67, 68, 69, 70. You have a preacher at Brannum Tabernacle actively preaching against it and you can kind of start to see how this sets up the fight, right?

Okay, so gradually in those months after William Brannum died, a lot of the people though started to walk the idea back as a result of Orman Neville attacking it as a result of the other preacher's attack in it. And over the course of about two years, 1966 and 1967, the message community went from about 90% believing in return ministry to about 50% believing in return ministry. And how they were able to change people's minds and the anti-church order faction they started to spiritualize a lot of those prophecies. They spiritualize the tent vision and so forth, right? And as they start to come up with those more spiritualized versions of interpreting

it all, you no longer need William Brannum to raise from the dead. You know, have this new spiritualized fulfillment. And so they started to come up with all those different ways to do it.

And one of the big ways they did it, John, is they started to say that the revelation of the Seven Seals was the fulfillment of the tent vision, okay? And it was Orman Neville that started to come up with some of these things after William Brannum died. The revelation of the Seven Seals, the sermons by William Brannum, they started to say that was the fulfillment of the tent vision, right? And people missed it. And so as all of that happened,

More and more people start to find ways to be able to let go of the return ministry and kind of move over into this new Spiritualized interpretation of all the unfulfilled prophecies. And so as all that unfolds You you can understand how this is the Relating to the creation of the first two sects of the message right especially when you've got fools like Perry Greene Who don't like to say I'm wrong, right or you know Billy Paul who's desperate for power, right?

They don't want to yield to orman devil. They don't want to yield To the more senior ministers. And so you've got these younger People in the message Billy Paul's a young guy. Perry Greene has been in the message less than two years, right?

And now you've got these older established ministers who have been with William Brennan for decades like orman devil like Raymond Jackson Right, and you've got the young guys Rebelling against the old guys is really how this how this is right at this moment, right?

And so from and so as we go through here from from the perspective of My sect of the message John. Okay, the young upstarts Came in and overthrew the established ministry in Jeffersonville right that's where it's heading But from I think from the perspective of the return ministry, you know, you're sect of the message um, I don't know do you got I don't even know if you guys remember any of this, right?

But Basically, it's we were all heretics, right? And we all had to be they had to be ran out That's probably how it looked from your perspective. Maybe I'll let you speak to that But as William Brennan died, that is how this thing is setting up. We would have condemned every church as a heretic Charles I mean, that's the way this cult operates if you're in one church and you go to you know, even if there are other Message cult churches in your city they they don't fellowship with one another. They often rebuke each other during the sermons

It's it's ridiculous but I've come to the conclusion that What you just said is key to understanding what happened after William Brennan died It took me a long time to come to this realization, but the message The quote unquote message that the messenger William Brennan brought was vastly different when he was alive than after he died And what men are saying about what he Came to teach and how he came to quote unquote restore the church as Malachi 4 That restoration differed from when he was alive to after he was dead And it's largely because men like Perry Green who were only in it for a couple years

Had no idea what the man actually taught and if you study William Brennan's own transcripts That message changed with each stage persona So the last stage persona that they had by that time he was So close and evidently just by examining some of the weird things he said He was so mentally unstable that there wasn't a consistent message So these guys that came in later have really no idea of what it was for the entire history of the healing of all So that's why whenever I have spoken with people from the NAR who have came and visited directly the church that I went to and they will say that it's a cult because they have seen how weird it gets in their undue reverence to Brannum and they separate the bulk of the rest of charismatic movement NAR they separate it from this thing because they point to what these men are teaching today as the quote unquote

of the message but they're largely dismissing the fact that what they're teaching today is vastly different from when he was alive I think one thing that it's important to say here John is I have I have a different view of the of the sect of the message you come from since I have left because when you're in the message there's certain things that you never think about you never consider but I absolutely believe John that your grandfather and Leo Mercer and Paragreen I absolutely believe that all those guys who went off to Arizona with William Brannum were carrying on what they believed was an authentic form of the message that they learned from William Brannum I absolutely believe that that time that they spent out there with him in Arizona

and Arizona led them to all these beliefs that's why they fought for it so hard right and I think that is so important for for people to recognize you know if you're from from the other side of the message because this thing breaks down this is going to split and there's going to be two factions of the message with a fairly different view of of everything based on what happened here in these early years and it's so important to realize that the people in the deed he called William Brannum did tell them he was God privately he did there's so many witnesses William Brannum did lead them down all of these beliefs privately right and so when they came back here it wasn't a craziness that they had okay cult leaders don't become cult leaders without leading people to it right John okay the people sitting out there in Arizona didn't all get together one day and say hey let's make William Brannum

Brannum our God don't tell him let's don't keep it secret no are you kidding me William Brannum led them all along into all of this stuff right you don't spontaneously get hundreds of people believing something like that about a person without the person insinuating it and manipulating them you know what I mean like it don't just don't happen so obviously William Brannum had to be doing things that we're leading all of those people out in Arizona do that and so when when the return ministry stuff happens and all of those guys out in Arizona start coming back here to overthrow the local community here in Jefferson

It really was stuff that William Brannum did with them out there in Arizona that radicalized them to come back here and up in the Jeffersonville community in the years after. So I think that's an important thing to think about on this side.

Instead of just looking at it as two people randomly fighting each other, it's important to acknowledge that it's two groups fighting each other, but William Brannum gave them both different versions of the message, different impedices, different focuses that set the fight up to begin with.

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So my grandfather, for example, there are many things that my grandfather did not, that he understood could not be true, and he would preach them anyway. I have mentioned that a few times in the podcast, but there were the core doctrines of William Brannum that he truly believed, and you could not shake his faith in them.

And one of those being, you know, the deity cult message. And if you ever got my grandfather when he was alive, if you ever got him alone and got him able to talk about it, he would tell you the things that William Brannum said that led him to that belief.

What's interesting is if you were not in the deity cult, if you were in some other sect, and you came and you tried to engage in the same exact conversation, he would word things in such a way where in his heart, he felt he wasn't lying, but he led them to believe that he did not believe in the return of William Brannum.

He was so weird because I witnessed this happening on both sides of the, you know, both sides of the coin, but he truly did believe it. And most of his belief came directly from William Brannum.

There are certain words and phrases in the message, which to the deity cult, the phrase means William Brannum is God, to the not deity cult, it means something else. And people in the deity cult can coexist alongside other message groups.

groups, especially tape church type groups, and get along perfectly. And they can, they can say the euphemism, William Brannem is God, they don't say that word. But they'll use the euphemism, right? And to them, they are declaring William Brannem is God and whatever.

And then the other person, you know, sitting next to him in this seat doesn't hear it that way. They hear it as, you know, something else. Because the language means different things to them.

And so, yeah, deity people are in a lot of places, right? And they keep their belief secret. They absolutely do. They don't come right out and say it until, you know, they get buried over in Eastern Cemetery and write it on their tubes, though, but they, they believe it.

And then they kind of keep it secret. And they speak about it euphemistically in a way that, that people, a lot of people don't catch. All right. So, let me share a little diagram I have here, John.

This is a little diagram I created, and I put in my book. I'll get you a better picture of it, but this, I put this together to help the listeners visualize how the early sex of the message broke up.

And in this diagram, you see the message broke away from the broader, lateral brain movement. And then out of the main sect of the message, you gradually have these sub-factions start to break away as the years go on.

As we go through, we're going to, we're going to walk through all of these sub-factions and more that aren't even on here. And this first split of the anti-church order faction breaking out, it really breaks out, really 1969 is the year that this schism unfolds.

And what's happening with the anti-church order, with the return ministry, this is all leading up to the schism when these guys are going to finally break away. And as I already mentioned, you got ministers on both sides of these things.

Norman Neville obviously is, I think it's very fair to say, Norman Neville is the leader of this faction. And I have to think, he is the most senior minister in the message at this point.

He's got a lot of sway. So as you got him, Raymond Jackson ends up on his side. He's the pastor of the church I come from. You also have Ewald Frank on this side of things.

Ewald Frank's rejects return ministry. He's going down that road, Bill Paderis, Ernest Fulture, that'd be the churches in Virginia, North Carolina, Appalachia area. And over time, they converted Don Ruddle. They converted James Allen, Estil Beeler, Joseph Coleman, and quite a few other preachers who had initially accepted return ministry, right?

Because you look at men like James Allen, they were initially in the return ministry beliefs. They switched sides, right? And then they came over on the anti-return ministry side. And so then on the reverse side of it, you know, that side of things, you've got Levail.

Levail is pro-return ministry, Perry Green. And they were probably the two biggest promoters of the idea at first, Levail and Perry Green. Billy Paul also believed in return ministry. And he is... is he is lending his weight to Levail and Perry Greene and the guy's favoring return ministry.

And most everyone out in Arizona did, right? Almost all the people that followed Willing Brown about to Arizona believed in return ministry back then. You know, Doug McCuse did, your grandpa Willard Collins did, Leo and Gene, all of the preachers out in Arizona were return ministry guys at the first for sure.

And let me read a couple quotes to you too, from some pro church order people. This first quote here is from Perry Greene. And this is out of only believe magazine, John. Perry Greene said, I never left the side of the casket.

Even it was it was wheeled out across a vast airport to a warehouse. It was in this warehouse that I was to take up a vigil of six hours with my ear pressed to the casket.

Each moment expecting to hear the prophet say, brother Greene, get me out of here. So that's what Perry Greene said, John. Perry Greene told everybody that he spent six hours with his ear pressed to William Brown on his casket, waiting to hear him say, let me out.

Okay. But this is bizarre stuff. Six hours, Perry Greene put his ear against the casket. Now we can debate, you know, did he do it or not? Is this guy just a liar? He might just be a liar, John.

But, I mean, but this is the stuff he's saying, right? And this is the stuff coming out of, they literally, as he is still in the casket are holding their ear to the casket to listen if he is, he's come back.

It's just so hard to believe, man. But this is the same cult that kept William Brandham's body on ice in the Jeffersonville funeral home for months and months. You know, I, I, in fact, I recently got asked as of yesterday was Perry Greene a liar.

And I'm not going to answer that question. People can decide for themselves, but here's the thing. As we get forward in this series, as we go forward and we start examining all of these different sex, I think there's enough evidence from the court system that we can compare to what he's supposed to believe and what actually happened in the court system, that the court system can make that judgment for us.

We don't even have to say it. But these guys, see, there was an issue. There was a huge issue with William Brandham's death. And I think this contributes to the reason why they haven't translated all the sermons, Charles.

William Brandham, as he became more mentally unstable, he would spout off random things that people would claim as prophecies because they were just so insane the way he said them. That it can't logically be normal.

It can't be a normal human speak, right? He's saying something that's insane. So therefore, it must. be of God. And he would say things like, now I believe before the end of the world, I'm going to have a part in the salvation of the Jews. He said this during his sermon, right?

Well, when he died, how is he going to have a part with that salvation if, you know, if he's dead? It's impossible. He has to resurrect for that to happen. Yet at the same time, why did he say it in the first place? Because the salvation that you should be, that should be Jesus Christ, not William Brannum, but he said it. And he was mentally unstable. So these guys have to believe that this is a prophecy. Once you take that leap, you have, you're given two choices. Either A, this guy was a raving mad lunatic that was spouting off random insane nonsense. And you have to walk

away and say, I was duped by this insane guy. Or you say, well, maybe it was true. And he's going to come back and it's all going to happen. So that that was really the choice that was left.

And many of these ministers, I think, capitalized on that. I don't believe for a minute that all of them truly believe what they said, as they got older and they got mentally unstable. Maybe some of them did, but I still think a lot of them died just fully not believing what they were preaching.

And it's really evident like Perry Green. It's really evident in their actions. I'm right there with you. I agree, John. I agree with you. I think your analysis of that is spot on accurate. And if you go back to the comment you made about William Brannum said he was going to bring the gospel to the Jews or whatever, I think that William Brannum was insinuating that as Elijah, he would become one of the two witnesses of revelation to the Jews. I think that's what he was kind of insinuating there and going on. And of course, just like he wasn't Elijah at all,

he also wasn't one of the two witnesses of revelation. So yeah, all that fell through. All that fell through, but you're right to to a lot of people in the message. These are failed prophecies, failed predictions, failed promises, which a resurrection of William Brannum easily patches that hole and let some keep the ideology going. It was much easier for the people to say, yes, he will raise from the dead and do all of these things rather than say, oh, he deceived us and we all got tricked and we were wrong. That's it. It's really that simple.

It's easier for them to say, no, we're all right. And every decision we made was right. He's going to raise from the dead rather than to say, oh, we were wrong. He lied to us. We were deceived. This is a religious deception. We need to go back and rethink our religion, right? And that is that is how these things unfold. And that's very typical of any sort of a, of a cultic system of religion, you know, when some, when an event happens that proves the religion wrong, right, that proves the religion as false, rather than

it's much easier to find a way to patch the whole than to step back and say, oh, this is a clue that this entire system is false, right? And that is what a lot of, this is what, this is what should have happened when William Brownham died.

People should have stepped back and said, wait, even he died. So now I've got a dozen false ill prophecies. I've got, no, he couldn't have been a lie, Jay. He couldn't have been this.

He couldn't have been that instead of doing that hard work of step back and say, we were all tricked. We were all deceived. We need to rethink this whole thing. They patched it. They patched it.

They either patched it with saying, um, William Brown is going to raise from the dead or they started spiritualizing all of, all of the, you know, the prophecies, right? And it's a very common thing and that's, it's cognitive dissonance that does that, right?

You read the, you know, books on that stuff. It's cognitive dissonance that, that presses the minds to do that because it's easier for the mind to patch the whole than to deal with the reality that their entire system of thought around this whole area is actually wrong, like that's like life shattering and you know, you and I know that John, we went through it, right?

Absolutely. We come to the awareness that no, I'm not going to patch the whole, the whole system is wrong. That is life shattering. It is so painful and hard to go through that. It is much easier on yourself to patch the whole.

But the right thing to do, I gotta say, the honest thing to do is not patch the whole, is to admit the whole thing is a, there's a major thing here and just to rethink the whole thing and, and clean it up, right?

That's how you and I got to where we are today, I think. So let me read you another sentence here from Billy Paul. This is on return ministry. And, and in this letter from, this is from a letter of correspondence from Billy Paul.

And in this letter, I'm going to read three sentences out of it. Billy Paul said, I personally believe that there is yet a further work for brother Brannum to do. He will be here at the coming of the Lord Jesus and will point the bride to the bride groom and say, behold the Lamb of God.

I don't understand it all, but I believe it. And, and when you see quotes like that from Billy Paul, right, it, it's acknowledging the fact that William Brannum has to introduce the church to Christ at his coming, right?

He somehow has to come back before Christ to introduce into Christ at the coming. So I, I believe as we go through all of this, I, I think we're doing a good job of painting the picture of these two factions, right?

On one side, you got Orman Neville, the most senior leader in the message. And on his side are most of the ministers here in the Jeffersonville area and about half of the other preachers overall.

And then on the other side, that Jack Palmer and Earl Martin and Lee Vail and Perry Green and most of the community out in Arizona and Bailey Paul, Billy Paul's on their side. And that's how these two factions are shaping up in 1966 and 1967, and I want to point out one more time.

At this point in 1966 and 1967, all these guys are all still getting together. They're all still holding joint conventions and everything in those years. The Easter meetings at the Tabernacle John in 1966 and 1967 were led by Orman Neville and the preachers of both factions were preaching there, Raymond Jackson was preaching there, Lee Vail was preaching there, Don Roddle was preaching there, Perry Green, Jack Palmer were preaching there in those years all together.

And besides those meetings here in Jeffersonville, they were still having special meetings down south and out west. And all of the message preachers from both of the factions were all still sharing the platform together.

They were all in that way still getting along all the way up through 1968. And it's also worth pointing out that through these years that Gordon Lindsay and Tommy Osborne and Kenneth Hagen and Dean Michikere and Joseph Matson-Bose and Paul Kane, and quite a few leaders from the other broader later reign movement that the message had been part of, guess what they were all still coming around too, right?

They had awareness that these things were going on, right? There are pictures of Joseph Matson-Bose and Leo Mercer together in these years, right? There are taped recordings of them speaking in our churches in those years, right?

Like we have tapes of Kenneth Hagen preaching to message people in these years, okay? So all the connections still exist, right? And anyone who tells you they don't, they're liars, they're liars, you can't believe it, that's not true, right?

And in equally important, message preachers are still going around to all the broader later reign movement churches at this time too, and that is so important because it was right in the years after this schism happens that the big, the first huge missionary outreach push of the message happens, right?

And that's when the men like Ed Biscoll are going to convert in, and Lonnie Jenkins are going to convert in, right? It's in the aftermath of this schism here that these factions are going to go out and start converting all kinds of people, and the message is going to explode in size, okay?

And I also want to point out that explosion in growth, John, is also predicted in, like, when prophecy fails, the books on cognitive dissonance, right? When your system or religion fails and you have a break away, the first thing you do, you spiritualize, you find ways to patch the holes, and then you go out on a big conversion push, because what you're doing by getting converts in is you're reinforcing yourself that you're right, right?

You're going out, oh look, hey, these new people agree that we're right, well, obviously it is, right? And so it's like it's bringing in reinforcing views to reconfirm to yourself that your system is valid by getting converts, and that's a very common thing that happens after you're a major failure that it would seem to prove the system wrong, okay?

So as that's happening, you know, in- And we'll talk about this as we go further. They're going around too, independent assemblies of God churches, to full gospel fellowship churches. And the message preachers are converting a lot of the people out of there.

And a lot of what happens, the view they take on this stuff, on return ministry, on church order, and you know, further things will suggest later, the side of it that they fall on has a lot to do with which group converted them into the message or out of those denominations.

And a lot of the leanings they take will have to do with which side of these factions that they side with as they finally convert to the message in the years after this. That's right.

And you know, you have to really understand that this thing that had developed during the post-war war to healing revival was a money train, nothing's short of it. In fact, Jim Jones of People's Temple, he said that these men openly admit they're on the greatest, what did he call it?

The greatest gravy train they've ever been on. And he said, William Brandham himself admitted that he did not believe the Bible. And when I first come across this, I thought, you know, Jones was just, you have to discount what he said because of who he was, but no, man, if you understand the doctrine that Brandham taught and you've read the Bible, you've actually read it, you realize that Jones was right.

Brandham didn't, Brandham did not believe a single thing that was in it. That's the conclusion that I have come to. And I've had one of the, I hope to be able to give the name, maybe I would like to during this series, if I can, but I don't know this, I'm in contact with an old timer who was around during the years leading up to the death of Brandham.

And they've described to me that there were men and women who were fully aware of the financial aspects of the brainwashing that was happening who weren't even religious. And so they saw this thing and they saw this opportunity.

And the brainwashing is key to understand why this is a money train because I've had a person tell me, you can't know the false religion until you know the true. So why aren't you just preaching the true, John, instead of talking about all the controversial issues?

But when your brainwash, that's not the case. You actually can't know the true until you fully understand the false when your brainwashed. And I've come to the conclusion that many of the men that I'm thinking about in my head right now who were in this cult and they were teaching it who did not believe a single aspect of it.

I think they were capitalizing on that fact. The fact that if their brainwashed, they'll never understand what is a true religion because if you think of how these schisms were, Charles, the people understand that there's some opposing faction of doctrine and they don't fully believe one side or the other, will they capitalize on the split?

because the minister can just discount that whole thing, they're brainwashed, they're not going to leave it and go to something else. So they spin off a new sect and then whoever's the leader of that sect becomes the king. So this is like a game of thrones with a brainwashed religion.

The formula here is just constant schism, constant new central figures and it goes on forever, right? It goes on forever and until somebody, you know, can put enough pieces together and actually start to wake up and critically think, you know, and realize what is going on here. Something is not right. Okay, William Brownham's dead 70 years. The end didn't come. He didn't return, right?

He separated the wheat and the chaff, right? He said, come out of her, my people, how about this? William Brownham said, come out of her, my people. So you can go in the rapture. Well, pretty well all of them are dead now. Pretty well, everybody William Brownham separated from the denominations is dead. He's dead and pretty well every single person that he has separated out of his dead. There's very, there's not a lot of them left. Ten more years, they'll all be gone, I would say, you know, the rate is going. How do you make sense of any of that? How could he have been the Elijah? How

could he have been the guy to get everybody ready for the second coming when he died and all the people he converted and prepared are dead too? It ceases to make sense, right? So, you know, as there's so many things in the message in the true version of it, if you're actually listening to what William Brownham is preaching on tape and, you know, the beliefs of the old timers and what I grew up with, it doesn't work anymore. A lot of the guys today, they, what are they doing, John?

They're doing exactly the same thing we're talking about. They did back here when he died. They're patching the holes. They just keep patching the holes, John. To the present day, they're patching the holes. What hole was they patching last year? Oh, Billy Paul died. So, they're patching the hole of, he's not going to be an old man till the sharks are swimming, right? They just keep patching the holes. And that's what they do. They keep patching the holes.

And, you know, I think at this stage, John, if you look at the message, the message is more hole than ship. It's just a massive patchwork, right? And so much of the original beliefs of this thing have been totally abandoned. And, and it's all just a big patchwork in order to keep it going. It is, man. It's, it's like a patchwork quilt of nonsense. When you think about the big mess that was created, have a hard time not laughing as I'm thinking about all of this, because you've got on the one side, you've got men who are just money scoundrels. They see the

opportunity, they see the ability to brainwash people. And this is the greatest field day for money that they've ever seen. On the other side, you've got people who believe the mentally unstable guy and believe that his mental and sanity was actually visions from God. So you've got those two factions warring. But the sad thing, Charles, for me, It's easy to laugh when you look at it from a distance, but when you get right down to the heart of it, think of all of those people that are in between those two factions.

They're separating, these schisms create new leaders, new factions of the message, and they're still caught between those two sides. But yet, these people truly believe it. Many of them brainwashed, but they truly believe it.

And for me, that's just really, really sad. I know, John, and you know, as we're slowly wrapping this up, I mean, how much easier would it be to just say, I know it's so painful.

It is so painful. I know how painful it is, John. I mean, I went through it myself. I mean, it is like a knife in the heart, painful, to say, we were deceived, William Brandham tricked us.

This thing was a scam. Boy, that's a knife in the heart. That is a knife in the heart, you know, and what I tell people, John, on this side, again, I tell them, you know, it's sad.

It's so sad our prophet turned out to be a false prophet, whether it's good news, Jesus is still a real savior. And so how much, why not just, you know, let William Brandham go, yeah, he tricked us all, get rid of it all.

And trust Jesus is going to save us from the wrath to come. I don't need a message to save me from the wrath to come, right? Jesus will save me from the wrath to come, right?

It's very easy. It's very easy to get there after you can get over that initial pain of the knife in the heart of leaving. But that is the big punch, right? The cost, the knife in the heart, the personal pain, the personal sorrow, and then the cost that the message community inflicts on you for leaving.

If you can get over that, there are ways to find your way to a healthier understanding of Christianity in the Bible for sure. So as we wrap this episode up today, I really hope we're painting a picture of how the early message schism was unfolding.

It started with church order. It got worse with return ministry. And in 1966 and in 1967, the message community, it's still pretty small at this time. Maybe 2500 to 5000 people. They're still reeling from the death of William Brandham.

These years are like, they're getting their act together. They're trying to figure, okay, oh, how do we fix all these problems, right? They're setting themselves up. They're stopping the bleeding, basically, and setting themselves up for a massive missionary push on the other side of the schism.

And it's really only after this big schism finally unfolds that the first major missionary outreach efforts are going to really get underway. So we got today, we've got through two of the big four issues that led to the schism.

And next week's John, we're going to go into the third thing, which added fuel to the fire. And next week, we're going to start talking about that. And it is when Billy Paul seized control of the Brandham tabernacle and started a huge fight with Norman Neville.

You're not going to want to miss it. So come back next week. We'll pick up the story there. Yeah, that one's going to be a good one. I will never forget the surprise. when I learned who was the actual pastor of the Brannum Tabernacle. It's such a such a crazy story man in the history is crazy. But to follow up on what you just said for the researchers who are watching who are never part of this cult and the message, I think you'll begin to understand as we go through this series. What we're watching, what we're talking about unfolding right now with

the different schisms in the message cult and what it developed into towards destruction. Think of that same thing, it's happening globally across all of the sacks of the post-war war to healing revival. Some are spinning off into destruction, it's like a train with no rails, you don't really know where it's going to head. Some of the cults like A. Allen progressed into a destructive cult much like William Brannum's message cult and you can follow that history if you go look at it. But there were others that even though they developed into a type of destruction, it wasn't the same kind

of destruction and you can see some of them spin off into the more unusual sacks of the prosperity gospel and cults that were destructive like the shepherding movement, etc. You can see all of this happening. What we're talking about is happening across the board with all of them. So as we get into this, I think you'll see some patterns emerging that you can kind of understand why the different groups have developed in the way that they did. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-brannum.org and Christian

gospelchurch.org. For more about the history of William Brannum and the healing revivals, read Come Out of Her My People, Available on Amazon and Kindle. For more about the dark side of the NAR, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, Available on Amazon, Kindle, in Available

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