The Reckoning: Indictments Hit Faith Assembly

Hello and welcome to another episode. I'm John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Chino Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D Ross, YouTube channel.

Chino it's good to be back and to talk all things Hobart Freeman and we're winding down to the final moments before the indictment and the you know whenever the cult begins to suddenly realize that wait a minute we're in a cult and the feds are cracking down the indictments coming and I'm really interested around this time period because I want to hear what some of the people think about what happened and how they felt and hopefully we've had a few people share the stories and I've got one more lined up, two more lined up actually from the Freeman call.

Hopefully more people will come and share their stories and I'd like to take people back into that moment in time and try to better understand what it was like leading up to this, whenever you, what did you think when you first heard that Hobart Freeman was indicted and how did it affect you and your family? So I'm interested to hear those people if there's anybody out there that's willing to share their stories but for the sake of this podcast we have an incredible story about leading up to the destruction of a destructive cult.

John I really wish you well and trying to last some of these people in to record. I have told all of them that have called me and I've just talked to scores of people in one fashion or the other that that here in me relay this information is one thing but to hear them especially the people that were there, the people in the satellite groups they have good stories too because they were second class citizens and it was like a pilgrimage to Rome or to Mecca to get to go to faith assembly for them and that was fun for them to get to go and they have their take on everything

but the people who were at faith assembly and saw it weekend and week out yes I really do want you to continue to get... to talk to some of those people. You do a great thing, I think, on Fridays of our stories where we get to hear these people, and I hear things and learn things that I didn't know.

But what you really hear is this raw perspective. You know, you and I are more like an analytical take on everything. You know, we know what's going on. I was a part of Hobart's message early on in my life.

You were a part of the message early in your life. But now, all these years later, our approach is a little more analytical. Someone even asked me the other day, I mean, I think it was just this past week, and it may be one of these people you're about to get to interview, but he asked me, he said, so what was it like for you, you know, way back then, was it easy to just dismiss everything?

And I said, absolutely not. I mean, you cannot, with a flip of a switch, when you have been a part of something like this, you just can't dismiss it because, and I know that's very difficult for people who have not been in a cult even began to appreciate.

They think, well, you just reject it. It's not that easy because it is, it is all a part of the way you were trained and raised, and the way your mind goes from point A to point B to point C, you've been trained to go down a certain path.

So I said, no, it was not easy for me, and I had ups and downs early on. Now, I probably sound fairly confident, but we're talking about 40 years later. But, you know, don't let that deceive you, and I wouldn't want anyone out there who is struggling with whether I should believe it or not believe it, or give up, or give in.

You know, we all process it differently, but when you are at the early stages of hearing, the contradictions and the inconsistencies, and the flat out unbiblical nature of so much of the teaching, and we've looked at that with some of these examples, then it's that time for the person to begin to work their way out of it, and it's not gonna be an easy road to home.

And for some people, it takes a couple of months, I think for some people, it probably takes a couple of years. I'm 40 years removed from that, and you're what, John, it does in years, removed from it for yourself.

Not very many, and for me, it's the same way. It was the single most difficult thing that I've ever gone through in my life with separating from this, and I believed every aspect of it, and the funny part of it is, if you look at what I do now, and you think of me in this research mode, you get the picture that this must always have been, John.

John always must have had an analytical mind towards religion and philosophy, et cetera, history. I was actually the opposite. I liked music, I liked art, and I liked cartoons. And that was in a nutshell, that was the sum of my life, those three things.

That's about all I really, I was happy, go lucky. And then I found out it was wrong and I just wanted to know why. And really a lot of where this podcast has gone and where my research and everything has gone is a result of me trying to heal myself because I wanted to understand what they did to my head and why they did it.

And the what's kind of easy, my head was scrambled, but the why it took me several years to understand. And after I understood the why, ironically, then after all of that, you go back to the what, because things like the way they taught the Bible, for example, it's hard to put into words unless you've been brainwashed in one of these cults, but they have a tendency.

It's a black or white mindset, but it's always on, always off type of mindset too. So when you're thinking of, say, the gospels and you're thinking of some of the words that Jesus said, well, the way that they twist the doctrines are such that you don't really consider who was Jesus' audience, what was the time period?

In fact, I just had a commenter today on one of the posts that was this exact topic. Who is the audience Jesus was speaking to? Were they under the old covenant or had they entered the new covenant?

And obviously Christ had not yet been crucified. So obviously they were under the old covenant, but you don't think about those things. So when you're in these cults, they want you back and they really want to put you back under the law because if they can get you bound, then they can wreak havoc with your minds and take full control and authority.

So after I learned why they did what they did, I went back to the what. I started trying to understand just what does the Bible say? And not through like a deep theological standpoint, I just wanted to know, what does it say?

If I open up and read it like a book, what does it say? And that's more difficult than you really understand at first because you have to understand what is the culture? What are some of the metaphors that are used?

They're not today's metaphors. So you have to kind of try to understand some of the language and it really takes time and study and I've got in my closet full of books. I've got this big, thick, strong concordance and that thing was my friend.

I don't know if you've seen those books, but I wore that book out, man. Go and cover to cover. But yeah, it was the most difficult thing I ever went through and it is for me, it will be a lifetime of learning to get back out of it.

And I'm in no hurry, it may take the rest of my life. But what they put in here, it's going to take a lifetime to get it back out. Yeah, I'm a big proponent of all of what you just said, John.

of proper hermeneutics and Hobart was a scissors and paste kind of teacher. As are most of your people out there today, they just cut and and take back together, passages of the Bible to get them to say what they want to say rather than following a good exegetical hermeneutical approach.

Well in our last time together we look at the civil trial that had been brought by an Illinois couple, the White had gone through a deprogramming session through help from her husband and his friends and then they had ended up hiring a Michigan attorney to bring this civil lawsuit which helped bring to lie Hobart's financial standing and that's what we spent our time last go around looking at and it was really important. I mean he was a relatively wealthy person not extravagant as I said he didn't own a home in Italy and one on South Beach. It wasn't that kind

of extravagance by any means but he was a very wealthy person and I just like for people to see that in contrast to how poor most of the people were in the church. I mean if you were all top-level executives, managers, business owners and you're you know kind of all in the same socio-economic group and if Hobart was worth a million dollars so what you know so we're half the other people in a church like that but but not in this cornfield in northern Indiana and especially not when we backtrack and remember that he had discouraged any further education you know that's all of the

devil you're going to be deceived if you go to college that's where the church loses its young people is when they get to a secular university and they get talked out of their fate and he had just set these people up to know nothing, have nothing, be nothing except people sitting in a chair underneath his ministry. Well after the civil trial was or the civil lawsuit was brought and Hobart died before he ever had to go to court on that now the criminal matters are in the works and they are about to burst upon the scene and we're talking about October the fall of 1984 and I just want

to say at the same time this is happening there are so many other cases it is like once a month now that the Indiana state legislature in the fall of 1984 had had passed some laws and had eliminated loopholes for religious exemptions Now, they have the state law statute written in such a way that when they need it, they can use it and they can go after these people that are withholding medical care from people who need it.

And so just about every month, I mean, all the way through the end of 1984, all of 1985, a good part of 1986. I have a folder full of, here's just all the newspaper clippings from all those years and months, all of these stories, and people have asked me, why do you have all those newspaper clippings?

It was the only way I was able to find out what was going on. You know, this is way back, you know, in the days of the dinosaurs. We don't have any other way to find anything out, no cell phones, no internet.

I'm living in New England in another state, faith assembly had cut me off, but I really wanted to know what was going on, you know, this was my background and I wanted to know what was going on.

There wasn't any way to know it. Nobody would tell me anything. So I subscribed to the Fort Wayne Indiana News Sentinel and to the Warsaw Indiana Times Union and, you know, I get all these papers in, John, I've got to read the whole darn paper and the only thing I'm looking for is anything in red, anything that's talking about Hobart, Freeman, or Faith Assembly.

So most of the newspapers, you know, I'm just sewing in the garbage can, but enough of them have stories about what is going on. So that's how I was able to educate myself. And yes, I've held on to these for 40 years.

I still have all of these same articles. You know, whenever I began investigating the Brandham Co. We had, I won't tell the whole story because it's out of place for this, out of context for this, but there was this alleged prophecy that this bridge had, was going to fall and sixteen men were going to fall to their deaths and drown.

And this couple had researched this prophecy by William Brandham and they informed me that the Jeffersonville Library had many of the newspapers that I could go look at them. Now, we had always been told that all of the newspapers before the 1937 flood had been fully destroyed and I guess they shared that with us to throw everybody off the trail because the newspapers just completely undermined the cult's history.

So when they told me that it was there, I can't tell you how many hours and hours and out weeks, months, I don't know, probably maybe a whole year. I was in the library every, every chance I could get and I'd pull up these little microfish and I'd go through and like you said, You can't just type in a search phrase, you have to read the entire paper.

And so where you're getting to read it like this, I'm looking in this little tiny window where I can read one article. And then I'd have to scroll it over and read the next one.

It is a lot of work to do this, but once you do it and you find the things that are related to what you're studying, I too kept everything that I have and you can go to my website and type it in.

I hope to some of the documents that you've sent me. I hope to also be uploading those to the Hobart Freeman page so other people can look at them. Very good. That would be very helpful, John.

So in the same month, in October, November, December, the same month, the end of 1984, here's just a case that was the newest one at the time. And the woman's name was Barbara Irwin and there are several newspaper articles that we can show the people and they can kind of work their way through the timeline of this.

But this is what was going on at Faith Assembly at the time. On November the 22nd of 1984, this woman who was a member of Faith Assembly, Barbara Irwin, took her infant son, DOA, to Casiasco Community Hospital.

So as soon as something like that happens, you know, the antennae of the legal and medical community

are up high and they are on high alert. It takes a little while for that information that a five and a half week old dead infant been brought by the mother to the hospital to get to the legal sources.

And then finally on Monday, December the 17th, 1984, a six member grand jury can be in 9.30 in the morning. They only listen to about two hours of testimony, they deliberated for less than an hour and they returned a three-count indictment.

And see, here's what's going on, remember, we've got laws now in Indiana that they did not have prior to this year. And so the grand jury is listening to Dr. Patricia Newhouse who was the Muncie pathologist who performed the autopsy of this child and found out that the child died from severe, severe pneumonia in both lungs, malnutrition and dehydration.

So the grand jury was convened to make sure that the public part, which would be the six members of the grand jury, thought that there was enough to indict this woman and they did.

And so on Thursday, December the 20th, 1984, she was arrested. And I just feel so sorry looking back for these people. And every... Every month, John, every single month is happening. It's happening around Faith Assembly and it's happening in neighboring states where there are satellite groups.

She appears before the judge and he reads the charges. He asks if she has an attorney. She said, and I quote, no sir, I don't wish to an employee an attorney. The judge responded and I quote, may I ask why?

She responded because I trust the Lord Jesus Christ as my defense end of quote. Exactly the way they had been tall fair. And where is this in the Bible, John? I mean, there's a passage in 1 Corinthians 6 where Paul is talking to the Corinthians, a really carnal church that he is trying to whip up into a higher level of spirituality and he makes a comment to them there, why is it that some of you who have all with your brother are going to law before the unbelievers and not settling it among yourselves there in the church?

And that's all that he said. That's not an indictment against the legal profession or attorneys or the court system or anything. It's just a statement where he said, look, if you people in your own local church can't resolve a difficulty among yourselves or between two people, then how are you ever going to be fit to judge angels and judge the world?

That's what he goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 6. But they all say, no, this is my view. This is exactly what they were taught by Hobart Freeman. When you go to court, no attorneys.

You have to simply have the Lord Jesus as your defense. But as I was watching this unfold, John, and I watched these trials happen, I never saw Jesus showing up to defend anyone. You know what they did, they defended themselves.

That's exactly what they did. And that's what Hobart was doing whenever he had both the civil and the criminal. He said the same thing. I'm going to trust the Lord as my defense. And I think, well, that is just nonsense.

The Lord never showed up to defend anyone. I think what they're meaning by that and what they're hoping misguidingly is that somehow God will just shape the foundations of the courthouse building and bring everything down on the head of the judges and the jury and they'll get to go free.

But they actually do believe in defense, but they go and defend themselves. And the judge, the judges and several of these trials said, let me warn you that the court... system is a complicated system. And filing motions is not something the average person can do.

And you know what's interesting? When they say I'm going to trust the Lord to defend me and they never did trust the Lord, they defended themselves. Those that started down that path, what's interesting is that Barbara, and I don't fault her, this is not criticism at all.

Barbara, as well as almost all of the other people, once reality set in, I mean, you are arrested, you are fingerprinted when you're indicted like that for criminal offense. Now you have a mug shot and you have your fingerprints taken. You know, this isn't singing power in the blood on the front row of faith assembly anymore. This is the long arm of the federal government after you. And it gets to be a very scary time. And I can appreciate the fact it would be scary. I'm not diminishing that or mocking that at all. You definitely need an attorney.

And so what these people, almost all of them did, you can guess, they hired an attorney when they found out, oh wow, this is really going to be difficult. And I don't think I can do it.

Then they went ahead and hired an attorney. So one thing on this case with Barbara Erwin, people were wondering, where is your husband in all this? Another little interesting tidbit of information that just ties in to what I have said for weeks now about the model of ministry and the message of Hobart Freeman at faith assembly. The husband, she was married. The husband was unemployed, couldn't find any work. And he had found some work down in Indianapolis. So he was spending all of his time down there. I don't know what he was doing. Drawwalling, painting, you know,

something. But because these poor people did not have professional jobs, skilled jobs, or higher education that would get them that kind of job, you know, they're just scrambling around for work. And that's the way most of those families had to live. And they will all say that, you know, with a few exceptions, they will all say that to a man. They were scrambling for work. So he is living down in the Indianapolis area the prior three to four weeks prior to this child's death.

So he was not even included in the indictment because he evidently didn't even know what was going on. So the potential problem would be 32 years in prison and $30,000 fine. But if you follow the court cases, and I'm not going to go to the end of all of these, the judges were very sympathetic.

I mean, they realized that these poor people had been duped by a religious leader. If you spend enough time, say, get a year or two after each of their appearances in court, a lot of them.

had gone back to wearing glasses or going to the doctor or getting their children shots or whatever it was they needed to do. So my point in saying that is I think the judges realized that we need to go easy on these people. The church beat them up badly. Let's not beat them up as badly as their church did. And that is exactly what happened. So most of the sentences were suspended. The hall, Mr. Hall spent some time in jail. Most of the ones were suspended for the very reasons that I just said and I'm and I'm really thankful for that. So that's what's

going on with Barbara Irvin. Now let's come to the big news what everybody has been waiting for and it was probably the biggest news in northern Indiana in the fall of 1984 and that is when this became public. And you can see in all red letters that Freeman has been indicted.

You know I'm living in as I say in New England I get this newspaper and I go wow because I was behind time saw what was going on there. And what the indictment was over was the death of a teenage girl named Pamela Men. She was 15 years old. Her parents were James and I own men. They were members of Faith Assembly and she had died of kidney failure on September the 16th of that year 1984. Prosecutors, offices on Hyalur you know any kind of Faith Assembly deaths they're definitely going to find out very very soon. So here's just a little background to what's going on with this

death and this they actually are indicted John. This all happens on Wednesday October the 17th of 1984. The trial of course is not until the following year by then Hobart has already died. He has passed away. He did not end up in this trial but he would have been had he remained alive.

But the parents James and I own parents of Pamela Pamela was actually James stepdaughter. They had lived in Wisconsin and had moved to Colorado and out in Colorado. The men's had heard some Freeman tapes and when they heard the tapes they thought this is what we want to be a part of.

They were in Colorado at the time. They packed up and moved to Northern Indiana and I think they arrived back in the Midwest in Indiana in the early fall of 1978. So no one's going to Remember, from our past discussions, except me.

So in 1978, they had left the glory bar in that spring. They had not moved into the new building in December yet. So the first of all had a tent in Warsaw and then in Goshen.

And then when it got too cold to meet in the tent and before the new building was ready, the church just broke up and met in all kinds of house groups all over that area.

And different teachers were responsible for teaching in these different house groups. So those are the circumstances to which the men's moved when they came from Colorado. And I can only picture in my mind what an exciting time that was because they had left the glory barn.

They were getting ready. They all knew going into their big, own brand new building. I mean, that was a really exciting time for them. So they had brought their other two children along with Pamela.

They have moved here to Indiana. It's an exciting time. You don't know which house group you're going to be a part of. And they're hearing this message of healing is in the atonement. God expects you to exercise faith for healing.

There are no exceptions, but there are conditions for you receiving God's promises. They were hearing that. And then as they stayed the next six years, then they began to hear not only that, but then they began to hear, you can't trust God and the doctor.

That's a contradiction. Then they began to hear doctors are evil and wrong. And it's sinful to go to them. Then they began to hear medicine has something to do with witchcraft and sorcery because that's the Greek word, pharmakia, in the New Testament.

Then they began to hear at the very end in his deeper deliverance and discernment series that if you've ever been to the doctor, if you were ever taken to the doctor, if you are taking medicine or have taken medicine, if you were inoculated as a child, if you've ever darkened the door of a doctor's office and ever had any kind of drug or medicine in your body.

Even when your mother took you and you were two years old, then you need to have hands laid on you and those demons cast out of you. So it would be a demon of penicillin.

It would be a demon of aspirin. It would be, he actually said that the names of the drugs are the names that the evil spirits go by. And so in order to deliver yourself or be delivered from that, you have to cast those demons.

by name out. And if you don't get them out, close the door, then that's why you're going to have problems in your life here in the future. That's the kind of message that they were hearing in the fall of 1984, whenever a panel of men died of kidney failure. You know, this whole thing that we're talking through today reminds me so much. And it should. It's really a descendant from it. But it reminds me so much of what happened in Zion City with Dauy and the Dauy cult. When I began reading through the newspapers, I was writing this book, Militant Christian Extremism, a critical

examination of John Alexander Dauy. And I don't know if you've ever done any of the online newspaper searches for Dauy, but there's probably a hundred thousand of them. And this guy interviewed me when I wrote this book. He asked me how many of those I read. I'm pretty sure I read almost all of them, if not all. Some of them were duplicates because they hit the associated press and I skip the duplicates, but I went through every single article. And it's the same exact religion. And it should be because FF Bosworth, who was one of the elders in Zion City, and he was also a deeply

embedded in the Pentecostalism. He was a co-wrote that who wrote the book Christ, the healer. The book Christ, the healer. He was a book to use. Yep. He was one of the original founders of the assemblies of God. This was a big name in the Revivals. He was William Branagh's mentor on Doctrine and Scripture. And they out of the Dauy sect, they taught that the healing was in the atonement, who's called a dual atonement. The healing was part of it. And they were telling the people the same exact thing. Medicine is witchcraft. It's sorcery. Don't take it. Doctors are

evil. If you go to a doctor, you're sinning. And really the same exact doctrines from start to finish, if you think about it. And reading through the newspapers, I kind of got the sense even back then of what you're describing with the leniency of the court system. When I first read the article of the Dauy was indicted. And I found one of them. And I read it. And I thought, you know, that must have been horrific for the people who were in the cult because now their cult leader is indicted. And what do they do? How do they act? Because they've been preaching this doctrine.

Well, then I started expanding my search to understand all of the articles related to the indictments. And I found there's like 300 indictments. And this was all as they were moving out of Chicago into their Zion city, very much like the, you know, the move that you're talking about with Freeman. And just exactly like you said, they're saying that they're going to avoid lawyers. God's going to be my guide.

As soon as they get in there, they've got an attorney and Dowie is denying, he had set up what's called healing home. So you would go there, you would take your sick loved one, if you had a lot of money, you'd take your sick loved one, give Dowie the money and he would say that he was going to heal them.

Most of the people died or some of them escaped. It's a horrific story. You can read the book, but he claimed that no, these weren't healing homes. These are vacation homes and that was his legal defense.

So when you get in front of the law, everything changes, right? Everything changes. And what's really sad about it is, so this happened, they left, Dowie goes and he creates Zion City. After his fall, this doctrine, I still get contacted from people who have family and loved ones who are in the Dowie cult.

Much like we have with the Freeman cult, it's the same exact thing. It will continue while there's somebody who will believe it. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

You're so right. And having you also seen, John, that the cream and tall, the people that judges, those are evil, wicked people, and attorneys are evil, and medical doctors are evil, and people and other churches, those are unsaved, evil, wicked people.

And what is so funny, it's not funny, it's tragic. To share an event that's going on now, but I won't give any details because I've been asked not to betray anything or anyone, but here is someone who has believed this their entire life, their older, believed this healing message, they have not been to a doctor in all of these years, they have a very serious issue.

They were or are going to die from this issue, that's how serious it is, they were finally talked into. By loving and concerned relatives to go to the hospital and Get things checked out. So I'm not gonna give all those details. That's their own private stuff, but but what made me just

You know, you just shake your fist at Hobart Freeman and all of these false leaders that have Trick these people and deceive them. So anyway when this person gets in get through the hospital You know, that's a traumatic thing when you think you are sinning and going to hell because now you're leaning on the arm of the flesh They went through all that to save their life and you know what their observation was to all of their relatives Oh the doctor the nurse those are just the nicest people I've ever oh They were so helpful and so kind and they had a smile on their face

You know, that's not what they were expecting John right they thought they would see Horns and a pitch fork, you know, that's what they thought they would see these are nice good people who have chosen the field of medicine Maybe to make money, but probably to help people, you know, that's why they're there and it's such a shock to these people to go and realize Wow, they're actually human beings are not little demons and lab coats are actually human beings with families and feelings Ironically, I had the same exact feeling the first time I visited another church

They indoctrinate you in that same way, man You're either part of this group or you're not you're either with us or you're against this so much so much so John that is so true so So we have this indictment it it comes down on The afternoon of October the 17th 1984 and just so people understand the death of this young lady You know the indictment took all the news as you saw big red letter. It's the leading article on the front page. It's all about Hobart Freeman and All about his indictment and and rightfully so I'm glad he was indicted

But I don't want to lose sight of what the indictment was over. It was over the death of this 15-year-old child And so as this trial progressed the next summer Hobart is already dead and buried by this time We get to see some more of the details of what happened. So again, I'm reading Some from the court on the night of September the 15th The teenager suffered a seizure while in bed her father said he had been sleeping on the couch near his daughter's bed in the living room for several weeks So she was not unattended and

He commented that she had one seizure during the night, you know All this comes out in the trial. And let me just say these are Christian people. So they are telling the truth, you know, whenever they're in court.

On the morning of September the 16th, the father said he was awakened by a choking sound being made by his daughter. I began praying with her and expecting her to be raised up when his daughter came out of the seizure.

Mr. Man recalled her last words. She said three things. The blood of Jesus, the blood of Jesus, and the last words out of her mouth, the blood of Jesus as I was holding her.

The breathing ceased. He continued, it wasn't anything horrifying. It was a deep sigh and then peace. The father said he believed his daughter had gone back to sleep, but then noticed she had stopped breathing so he checked her vital signs.

Realizing she was dead, he explained, I prayed over her, expecting her to be raised up because I've seen that in the Bible. People had been raised from the dead. However, he said later, when I prayed with Pamela, I knew the Lord was not gonna bring her back.

So it's just a really tragic loss, not in the infant, but of a 15-year-old, and a 15-year-old who, by her own admission, wanted to trust God, she was not forced by her parents to not go to the doctor and just listen to tapes.

She was not forced by anyone, but yet she was coerced because of the teaching that she herself had been under and that her parents had been under as well. So, as I said, this girl died in September of 1984,

works its way all the way to the prosecutor's office, whose name was Michael Minor, and he calls a grand jury on Wednesday, on Wednesday, October the 17th, a six-member grand jury late that afternoon, they indicted both the parents, James and I own, and their pastor, Hobart Edward Freeman, charging them with three felony counts.

The father, for the mother, and for pastor Freeman. The first felony count was aiding and inducing neglect of a dependent. The second one, aiding and inducing criminal recklessness. You know, we're kind of working our way in ascending order up here.

It's just kind of neglect of someone who's dependent on you. Now it involves some recklessness of a criminal nature. And the third one was the big one, aiding and inducing reckless homicide. You know, I just want that to sink into people's consciousness.

That's what the parents were charged with, but not only parents, that's what Dr. Hobart Edward Freeman was charged with, aiding and inducing reckless homicide. What is homicide? Homicide is one individual killing another individual.

You know, it could be accidental, it could be intentional, it could be premeditated, there are all kinds of extenuating circumstances, but homicide. Homicide is one individual killing another person. As a matter of fact, in the actual indictment that was read in court, here's how it read, the indictment alleged that the men's did recklessly kill their daughter, Pamela Margaret Men, by failing to provide her with medical care, with lack of medical attention, resulting in her death.

The indictment also alleges that Freeman did knowingly and intentionally aid, induce and cause the death of another person. I mean, that's just horrific. That is absolutely horrific. That here in 20th century was then 20th century America that a pastor of an evangelical, fundamental, Christian-oriented, Bible teaching and preaching church is going to have in its leadership a minister who's charged with reckless homicide, at least aiding and inducing.

We're gonna talk about that more in what Hobart's response to that was, because he did have to talk to the judge, we'll talk more about that next time, but this is one person killing another person.

Did he reach out with his hands? No, but the court said he aided and he induced the death of this young lady. Six, a 15-year-old young lady, and when you compare that, they were so proud of all their beliefs and teaching on healing.

When you compare that with what you read in the New Testament, the early church, they caught heat, overracing people from the dead, not killing people. They called heat over healing, not death. I always said that faith assembly did not have a doctrine of divine healing.

They had a doctrine of divine death because they had 100 times of eternity an infant mortality rate within that county where that church was, than anywhere else in the state of Indiana. So they weren't raising the dead, they were killing the living.

They weren't bringing people out of the grave, they were putting people in the grave. And it was because of Hobart's erroneous teaching, divine healing, miracles, that's all good. and well and wonderful and we do see it in the New Testament, we see it in the Old, we see it in the New, we see people healed, we see the dead raised, we see Jesus and the Apostles saying, your faith have made you whole. We do see that there and I would never take that out of the Bible, but what we don't see there is what Hobart taught. Hobart says, if you're sick, you claim your healing,

then you confess your healing, then you act on your healing and you can't act contrary, which could be going to the doctor taking medicine and then you endure to the end and then you wait for the manifestation of your healing. That was his healing doctrine and this waiting for your manifestation, that was the biggest thing and guess what everyone did? Everyone was waiting for their manifestation and their manifestation never came. So whatever people want to say about me or you or healing or faith, you can't deny the fact that that was faith assemblies doctrine of

healing. You don't ever really get healed but you claim that you're healed and when anyone asks are you healed even though you aren't, you say yes and then you act accordingly and then you endure to the end, you take that. This is all I ask people to do. I ask them to this day, that's Hobart Freeman's message. You take that and you compare that with what happened in the Bible when they prayed for someone, they leap up and they haven't walked in their entire life. It's not like a twisted ankle. It's like these people have never walked. They were born lame. It's like these

people were dead. I mean dead dead and they were raised from the dead. So that's the new testament's method of healing. It actually worked and Freeman's did not work at all. So believe it or not this very day, this afternoon that Hobart Freeman is sitting in his study in his home on shoelike and he gets this very bad news that he has been indicted.

Three felony counts including aiding and inducing reckless homicide. It's also his turn to preach. And so he preaches a message on this Wednesday night. It's out there on YouTube, John. It's entitled part one of comfort for trouble times October the 17th, 1984. We have actually referenced this message before because believe it or not, this is the same message where he goes on his overcomers will not kill any animals. Overcomers will not hunt. It's actually the same message.

I mean, all of them on the same day, he's in He's got to preach this message and at the 35 minute and 15 second mark is when he starts talking about no hunting This is what this was a final straw that broke the camel's back for Bruce Kenzie where Bruce just said, you know I'm not gonna come back here anymore because Hobart said that overcomers won't harm any of God's creation. They will not kill any creatures We've talked about this before and in earlier podcasts and I said to you then John I said Hobart's wheels were spinning because he had the mind and the mouth of a magician and he was probably thinking about

Jesus telling the disciples throw your net on the other side of the boat and they killed 153 fish So right in the middle of him saying that he said, no, I'm not talking about You're not being able to go out fishing to get some fish to eat. You'll just have to put it all together And I said no, don't make us responsible for your confusion. You know, that's totally up to you because you're confused I'm not responsible for that Well, let me responsible for your contradiction But I know he had a magician's mind and mouth and he's thinking, uh-oh, I just said no killing him

What am I going to do with Jesus approving killing poor those poor 153 fish in the sea of Galilee that's in this same message that came on this indictment dead It's unbelievable and it's sad all at the same time because I'm thinking with the people who are sitting there listening as all of this is playing out the fear I don't know if they all knew that he had been indicted, but some of them surely did and the fear that must have been going through their mind What are they going to do to the cult? What what's going to happen to us and you've seen in history

You've seen some of the cults. They really go explosive whenever they feel like the government's cracking in and like you said earlier The court systems. They're not only are they're lenient They're filled with juries of people who are feeling really sad for the you know for the cult members I got the same thing whenever I was reading the dowry books You could just tell by the way things were worded They wanted to put a stop to it, but how do you stop it without hurting the people and the only way that they could find was to

invent new laws and regulations that could prevent people from dying in the sect But when the government is doing this the sect is being taught by the cult leader the government's closing in on us They don't they're they're part of the devil scheme. They don't like our divine healing And it's just so sad when you think of the people in it Yeah, John you asked you didn't know what people knew he was indicted Yes, the people will go online and listen to this message in the first 30 seconds of the message He's teaching on Romans 8 and

He is actually going to say and that in the very first 30 seconds of the message that he was just indicted that day Romans chapter 8 and Believe it not. The Lord was already giving me this before I was indicted. So I'm not just trying to comfort myself, but the title he gave me was comfort for troubled times. If people want to go further into that message, I'll give the timestamp and you may or may not want to play all or some of this John, but from the 13-minute and 22nd mark to the 16-minute and 27-second mark. You see what's happening

today concerning faith assembly is no different than what happened to Jesus or the Apostles or the church down through history, and we've taught you that faithfully for many, many years that eventually the church will suffer persecution. And now the state is encroaching on the rights of the church by passing legislation to cause us to have to be indicted and arrested and face grand juries and sued and all of that litigation of all kinds. We've warned you that it's coming.

The purpose is and why people fear man their purpose is is to get at us and not only closes down but to destroy us. They can destroy you by incarcerating you, they think. And so up to this time I haven't been indicted, I have been subpoenaed and been targets of indictment, but now I'm indicted.

I thought they had to have a basis, but apparently they don't because I ain't done nothing. But preach the word. God's will be done. You can preach it in prison as well as in faith assembly.

Friends, there is so much peace in my heart and so much comfort that I'm just about ready to be translated. What a privilege I wouldn't miss it for the world. You see because this is proof that you're ready to be manifested as the Son of God because he says if we suffer with him we'll be glorified with him. Hallelujah. I don't want to labor the point but I'm saying for your sakes you have to be prepared. It's too late after it happens as some do fail their test after it happens. They go to the arm of the flesh, they tremble, they fear before man.

So you have to get your preparation ahead of time and we've been faithfully preparing you for many many years over a decade, almost two decades. You say well I haven't been here but six months.

Well pray the Lord will do a quick work in your heart because you're subject to the same things that the leadership is. Every one of you can be with all of us holding services in some institution somewhere.

Praise the Lord. Wouldn't we have a time? I'm not confessing prison, but friends the Lord's will be done. I would have to work up a problem about it. I'd have to work at it. I don't have a problem. It's a privilege. We've been telling you this. Now that it's a case of being indicted, tomorrow I get fingerprinted and go through all of the processing as a criminal, what a privilege to suffer a approach and abuse for the Lord's sake. He said, when it happens rejoice and be exceeding glad, leap with joy for great as your reward in heaven. I

want to tell you something if there wasn't a reward in heaven for suffering reproach for Christ's sake. I would count it a privilege anyway just to be identified with the name of Jesus Christ and his word. He is just so glib and I actually have a transcript of it sitting right here in front of me. I could read that whole thing, but he is just so glib. Well, I already had this message on Romans 8 and God knew we needed it because I didn't die today and going to get fingerprinted tomorrow, which we'll talk about next time. That was a media circus Thursday morning,

the next morning in Warsaw, but he's careless in his statements. He's just saying and he's so arrogant, boastful. I have preached this faithfully to you for the last decade, the last two decades that we're going to be persecuted for our faith in God's word. It just goes on and on. This boastful tone almost daring the courts to do anything about it. Had he gone to trial, he probably would have gotten the suspended sentence, but here's the thing that the courts require in order to give that suspended sentence and they required of the men's, by the way, which that trial went to court. They

were convicted. It happened in the next summer in the summer of 1985 and the courts were very they gave them a suspended sentence as they did for most of the parents under the condition that you'll seek medical help for all the rest of your kids. You know, you can't be pulling this stuff again. You pull it again, you're going away for a long time. So, Hobart in one sense, John is, in one sense, he's lucky that he died because he probably would have been convicted. There's no doubt about that. There's too much evidence on all the cassette tapes. He would have been convicted

that he had aided and induced and encouraged and threatened the people that if you go to a doctor, you're going to hell. So, he definitely by his own words would have been convicted, and then a stipulation would have been put on him, you can't be preaching like this anymore.

And of course, it's so interesting to see them. They don't want to be members of society. They want to be separate from society until you infringe on their American rights. And then you'll hear Hobart in this saying, well, I thought we had a constitution.

I thought you had to be guilty of something first. Well buddy, you are guilty of something according to the grand jury, inducing and aiding reckless homicide. You're very much our guilty of doing something.

He was so blinded, so deceived himself that he somehow could twist things in his mind and end up with, well, I preached such and such, but everybody made up their own mind, whether they're going to do it or not.

That's not my fault if they made up their mind to do what I told them. And here's what you and I would say, because we're so familiar with this, in a normal church setting with a normal minister, no, he wouldn't be guilty because he is not pressuring you and threatening you and manipulating your mind.

He's just reading in the Bible verse. It says, if you don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you won't go to heaven. That's a true statement that will always be true. But what Hobart did is he would take these faith in healing and hell verses and send people to hell that they didn't believe his view on healing.

He absolutely would. So yeah, he was absolutely guilty. So I just see this careless, reckless, boastful attitude and maybe I should conclude with this because I just have a heart for these people, John.

One thing you've done here, you can hear the whole message. You can hear part one in the next week on October the 24th, another Wednesday night. You'll preach part two of that. And you know what I don't hear?

Not a single comment about Pamela Men. Not a single comment about this young lady. He's all revved up and excited that I might get to go to jail and that proves whatever it proves about me.

And not a single comment about the death of another human being, a 15 year old child who was raised in his cult, who faithfully listened to him, who faithfully believed when he taught her and it calls this young lady her life.

Not a word about her and not a word to the grieving parents and let me add a parenthetical statement there. The parents didn't grieve by their own admission, by their own admission. And I have heard this from so many people and it's not that there's something wrong with those parents as far as their love for their child.

I'm sure they dearly love their daughter. John, it was a way they were taught that this isn't... really reality. Reality is our church and our beliefs and relationships and emotions and feelings sympathy for someone and sorrow over something that had happened. It's like they were not capable of feeling those emotions. And that's exactly what the parent said to we didn't we didn't grieve any because he didn't know how to grieve because grieving is evil, grieving is a negative confession, grieving is not faith, grieving is not trusting God.

So I would encourage people if they are of the mind to listen to this and see what does Hobart talk about most of the time he talks about himself, how great his faith is, how he's just going to preach in prison. Oh no, you're not. You just got you're going to go from preacher to prisoner here if you still continue to live and preach this message. Just boasting about himself, how faithfully I've taught you the word of God, how evil the world is, how I have faithfully warned you that persecution is our lot in life. And this is the devil's persecution against us, not at all

owning the death of this young lady at his hands and at his teaching, not commiserating with the parents or the extended family or anyone. It was simply all about him. You know what's really sad is in the cults that we've examined and we like you said on the Fridays we have the R stories.

And almost every story that is the pattern. It's all about the cult leader. It's never about the person who is in the cult. Many of them suffering some mentally, some physically. It's always about the leader. And then if somebody were to leave the cult, you know, the people are so focused on the leader, they don't even think about the person that's left half the time. I've had, I think when my family left, I think we had one person out of the thousands of people that I knew in the cult. We had one person who contacted who legitimately tried to bring us back. And it wasn't a family

member at all. It was just one single person. And the whole rest of the cult, it's not that they didn't care. I truly believe they do care. But they've been programmed and manipulated to focus solely upon the cult and the cult doctrine. And it's just so sad when you think about it. But I'm, I get down when I think about the people and what they're going through. But I do get excited for things like our next episode when we talk about the aftermath of what happened now that the people, here's this, where's this headed. So I'm looking forward to, to the next episode.

Thank you for the opportunity, John. Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.