Christ Gospel Church: Deconstruction, Healing, and Personal Growth - With Darrell Carlisle II

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Darryl Carlyle, former member of Christ Gospel Church. Darryl, it's good to have you and to share your story on the podcast. I think before we get too deep we have to talk about the elephant in the room and that's the eye sore that is in the picture that I'm looking at and we're talking about the UK emblem on your shirt. That's gonna offend a lot of

people around here and I can say this because I'm a Georgia Bulldogs fan so I don't have a dog in this fight but welcome it's good to have you. Yeah thank you very much. Georgia just beat us a couple weeks ago so yeah so I appreciate you bringing that up. No thank you very much. My wife was on, I guess it was about a month or so ago and you know it's it's kind of taken a long time. It's been a crazy journey you know for the last several years kind of getting out of this whole thing and just kind of embarking on a new journey

you know as a couple much different than how we grew up and I like a lot like Renee I was born and I was born into this but my mom started going at about the age of five when I was at five and then she would take my sister and myself and so we were essentially I guess you could say raised and that my sister was about two or three or so when when we started and I went obviously through high school and ended up meeting Renee at an event a youth event when we were in high

school we dated for a year and then and then basically when we were out at school we got married and so but we're still in and we moved to Missouri and had some really good friends there that I had known in Indiana where we grew up where I grew up and they were in linear Missouri going to Christ hospital and I went to visit them and we really liked the area and so I went to college there and that's kind of how we ended up in Missouri.

We were there for, had both our children there and still in the church where youth pastors and I know we kind of started on the journey, you know, everybody's called, right, you know, to be pastors and whatnot.

So we were doing some classes and it was kind of crazy, the stuff that we were basically taking her books and then the workbooks and obviously cost a lot of money to do this.

So we did that for a bit and then we had some interesting interactions with the pastor in our classes because the local pastor would administer the classes, there were three couples and finally I was like, you know, we got to get out of this, that portion of it.

And what kind of got me going on getting out of this was I took a job out and I was a nurse and I took a job in the industry as a sales rep for a company and I met some really cool people that were Christians and they didn't like look like me or like you know, or at least the whites didn't look like, you know, how we looked.

But they were obviously, we're good people. The total opposite of kind of what I had been led to believe it was out there, right, if you stepped out of the cult. And it really got me thinking, and I had had lots of questions along the way, I know Scott was on his podcast for the other day, I knew Scott, we went to the youth camp together and he kind of got into the nuts and bolts of a lot of the details of, you know, the teachings and whatnot.

So and a lot of stuff like him, I was like, I don't know about this and throughout college before I even took that job I started really thinking about things. And so I had a lot of questions and then when I took that job and I met some other folks outside of the cult and started to, you know, build other relationships, you know, it just made it a little bit easier because you know, one time I was out training and I came back and Renee had cut her hair and that was a big no-no.

And I was like, okay, it's on because now I know she's kind of where I'm at. And it was wild and you know, she kind of went through that kind of got it going because as you know, I'm sure you experienced this, once you do something like that, you're kind of ostracized, you know.

So that's kind of her doing, all the things that happened that, I believe it or not, was kind of like that line in the sand like, okay, we're doing this, you know, and that was kind of very out.

And you know, what's really odd about that is whenever I was in it and I was of the same mindset, right? I believe that it was wrong for women to cut their hair. I had not studied all of the things that I- studied now and understand the passages. But whenever I was in it, and somebody would do something like that, whether it was the hair or wearing something, usually it was directed at the women, but there were a handful of rulers that the men had. And when they would break them, I never looked at people like that and ostracized them. I was of the mindset that Christ came to save the

centers. And if somebody stumbles and falls, you pick them back up. That was my mindset when I was in it. But at the same time, when I left, I knew that a vast majority of people would be exactly like that. I'll cut you off. It's really weird. It's like if you're not part of the group, we're going to sever ties with you all together and you're no longer even human to us. That's really how it feels in these groups. Yeah. And then she went, I'm doing some training. And actually the funny thing is, is that I'm thinking, well, I got back from a trip and I was asleep. And I remember

she came into this apartment because we were building a house. And she woke me up and out of a dead sleep and her hair was cut. But it wasn't when I went to bed. And I was like, oh my god, like, yeah, I didn't know who walked, right? And it was the craziest thing. And so then I went to another training class, right? And at St. Paul, Minnesota, right? I'm gone for a week at a time. And she had a meltdown. And she had visited another church and it was weird to her as everything was to us

at that time. And other than, you know, Christ, gospel. And so she ended up going back on the next Sunday that I was gone. And people didn't even talk to her. And because she cut her hair. And you know, and then that kind of was a good thing for her to experience that because maybe they would have, I would have been there, maybe they would come up to me and make conversations with me.

And then maybe we would have, uh, a flight felt like, okay, well, you know, we messed up, right? But we're coming back, right? But it wasn't. It was that was very hurtful to her. And also, obviously to me too. But after that, you know, that, that was it. We were done. And one of the things like for me was that we, we were kind of going through this thing now. And I'll say this part because I'll go, and I'll go back this deconstruction, right? Of, of, and, and it's a tough and painful thing because I've heard you talk about it. You, you realize, oh my goodness, I was so

blind. Like, how, I mean, I was embarrassing. I think it was 27 or 28 when we left 27, maybe. And, um, it was like, but we didn't just, you know, now that we're fully deconstructing that, right? And we're, we're, we're on a much different journey. But at that moment in time, we couldn't just leave.

We went to something that was a little less crazy I guess you could say and it was an assembly of God church and it was it was it was okay to be were very nice. I love the pastor and I've heard you say it a lot not all these pastors are meaning to be harmful to us right or to people and there are a lot of good ones out there but what some of these folks what they teach and what they believe and it's just what they believe is very hurtful and harmful and so this was less it was it was charismatic but less crazy I guess you could say and

it was like a step down right and and then we moved and we ended up in another church another amazing pastor small church we ended up in North Dakota transfer for work and this this again you know we're going through this journey of like okay you know we're not on a cult anymore we're not on a cult and we ended up at a church that was affiliated with Kent Copeland oh wow and Hagen yeah I mean that guy network was river to be like 750 million is you know a few years ago which I don't that's probably not true but it's

probably not far off and it was like I don't and and one of the things that I've learned so many of us when we get out of this we if we don't really deconstruct and really tear this thing down we ended up in another situation very similar to the one we left and we left North Dakota and we ended up in another assembly and there was some crazy stuff that went on there and we finally got out of there but it took us five years and it's it's and I don't know how your journey's been but I mean and I'd love to hear like kind of like your process but it

it was again it's like you know just it's felt like we were just getting a little further away but we're still in something kind of crazy and it's just you know it's it's hard it's so hard to just walk away yeah all at once it's really common people see the problem is we had such a false foundation that literally I could talk to somebody to another Christian about a passage from the Bible and he's talking about the same passage that I am and we're both think we're talking about the same thing but my head is often left left field because we had such a wrong

foundation that even the text of the passages had a different meaning to us and I'll never forget the moment in which I read the Bible cover to cover just trying to wash all this out of my head one day it just suddenly clicked this is this is a set of books the Bible is actually a library it's not a book it's a library it's a set of books each book has different genres you've got history books you've got the law you've got the prophets you've got the scrolls you You got the letters from Paul.

And suddenly it just clicked. You read it in the way that it's written. You don't read it through what some other person has said or through some other book. And so my journey out was similar.

We didn't go to the extreme of choosing another Pentecostal church, but the church that we chose after I would, there are things that I consider healthy about it and there are things that I consider very unhealthy about it and some of them very problematic.

After we left and we started discovering, I heard the gospel for the first time in that church. I'd never heard it in the message. And yet at the same time, there were things that were fundamentally, in my opinion, fundamentally in sync with what we had left in this church.

And I realized, I've got to get my family out of here because if there's that level of destruction that we came from and then there's this little tiny level of destruction in this new place, what will it grow to?

And I was really concerned about this. So I went to another church and I'm not going to tell you where I landed because I try to avoid, you know, where my journey's personal, I try to avoid that.

But the gist of it is we were taught something that was so incredibly false that even our understanding of the Bible itself was wrong. We were taught basically, if you really think about it, you're taught at almost like a elementary kindergarten level understanding of what the Bible is, rather than what it says.

And once you grow to an adult, if you're reading a book, where you're going to want to know more about the book, you want to know more about the culture and the people and what does the book say?

And so I went down, I went down paths of study that most people won't, but I got into the studies of text criticism, which is basically, how do we know the text is accurate?

Out of all of these families of text, how do they determine which, you know, what's, what families of the text are correct and why? I wanted to know how the Bible was formed and then church history in general.

I wanted to know all of it. And so I started, at the very beginning, I'm reading all of the early church fathers, everything I could get my hands on. I'm reading some fascinating old stories and you find out some of those guys were nuts, but some of them are respected in the church.

But you have to remember, they too came out of cults. They came out of the, you know, the cults of Dionysus, the cults of Zeus, whatever, you know. So these men came out of cults and they started forming what was their thoughts about Christianity and over time, it was refined into a way in which what we have today. The interesting part that I'm building up to with all of this is the movements like the ones that we came out of takes it in the reverse direction.

Instead of refining it and growing to a better understanding of God, they want to dumb you down so they can control you. No, and this is kind of where I've come to, and this is kind of the thing that I'm really really where I'm at now. And Renee has been a couple months or six, eight months behind me because I didn't dig in like you did, but I have dug in and looked at all this because I'm like, okay, I look around, I did a little bit of research.

I was astounded that there are 46,000 different sex of the Christianity. 46,000. And they all think they're right, obviously. I mean, you know, everyone I've been to, the handful I've been to.

And I also came across a really cool, interesting thing is there's 10,000 cults in the US. So you think about a lot of those, they're not all Christian cults, but a lot, most of them are.

So you take those 46,000, those 10,000, a lot of them are kind of co-mingling, right? And it's like, I looked at all this and I'm like, what have we done, right? As a nation, a lot of, you know, in America, it just seems like a lot of this stuff is just running rampant. And it's all, you know, it's all, I call it the triad, sex, money, and power.

I feel like that most all of these have at least one or two and typically all three. And it's become more of like a business and it's not about people. It's, you know, I was reading, this is another crazy number.

Last year, it was estimated $74 billion the church brought in. Wow. I looked up how much the percentage that they give to charity, two to eight percent on average. And most of those charities are administered by that church.

And I'm sitting here like, what are we doing? Like, why have we built this machine? And again, to your point, it's, it's control. Like, like, they, they, they, they dumb it down. Like you say, they control this and, and, and people just, just tell me what to do.

Tell me what to think. Tell me what to say, and, and I'll do it. I feel more comfortable in, you know, doing that. And I, I felt like for me that, and I think I've heard you say some of this.

And I, and I, I've listened to a lot of your stuff lately in the last six months or so. Um, and you really, you talk about the onion and all that. As far as peeling back all these pieces, a layer of the onion.

And I felt like I had to get to the very middle. And to where I was somewhere between agnostic and almost atheist. Not that, you know, I just, had to, because I want to say, you know what, I need to find out for myself, like, what do I believe? Like, what does all of this mean to me? And I did come back to my faith, but not to someone else's, I guess you could say, right? And if that makes any sense to you.

I've had deep discussions with men of the faith, ministers who tried to change the way in which I do things, because I allow anybody to talk. I don't care who you are. I don't care what you believe or don't. It's your story and you've gone through it. I've gone through it. And what they were trying to push on me was the notion that, John, you can't let them deconstruct.

They have to hold on to Christianity. Otherwise, they'll go atheist and then they'll be the bad guys. I mean, that was the gist of what they're trying to say. But you don't really understand, when you have such a false foundation as this, you can't try to put something else on top of it.

It's like if you, you know, if you got a building a house and you suddenly realize there's quicksand underneath, you don't just take part of the house down. You take it all down and build a strong foundation that you can build up with it. And when you're in these types of groups, the only thing that you can do is start to tear down the God that you were trained to believe.

And in a lot of cases, you find out this is a false God. This is not, this is not the God of the Bible. So in effect, somebody who's deconstructing, I hate to say it, because it is the most painful thing you have ever done. You literally have to take it all the way down to, okay, is there a God who made the universe? How does this place exist? And you go down to the basic questions. What's interesting about this is those basic questions are literally how religion came to be in the first place. Man wanted to connect with God's, right? So you're in a

sense, you're going back to the beginning. But like you said, you're building up things that you know and you can prove, here's the Bible. What does it say? It's that simple. No, it is. And I, I look at where things are now and you know, we currently aren't going anywhere. And I really respect people. And any, any choice when you get down and you boil it down and you tear it apart, if you land as an atheist or agnostic, you know, I respect you. I, because if you went through what I went through, I can understand. And at the same point, I see people that are

deconstructed and they don't know it. And they're kind of holding. I'm like, all right. same thing with me, and they're still talking the same language, they're still saying the same kind of things, but they're kind of pulling away. And I can't cast judgment, because I'm like, hey, what are you thinking, man, don't you see this? Well, it took me a lot years, a lot of years. So you can't, you have to respect these folks, you know, even if, again, it's like I respect another religion, you know, it's the same thing.

Yeah. But it comes down to, it's a personal journey for each person. And what I describe with the deconstruction process, my foundation was built because of the indoctrination, when indoctrination works differently from person to person, because in the way that they indoctrinate you using the power of suggestion, usually that's what it is. The suggestion combines with your own thoughts and your own feelings. So what I feel and what I think and how that merges with my brain doesn't merge in the same way with another person, which is interesting because that's how it causes all these splinter groups. They'll have different notions

and they'll say, but the cult leader said exactly what I believe. And then they realize that no, it's the power of suggestion. It works differently. And, you know, I'm the same way that the people have to go in their own journey. And where they are now, it's the old saying, walk a mile in my shoes, right? Until you know what somebody has been through, you can't really talk about it. No, no, you can't. And, you know, it's one of the hardest things. There's a couple different podcasts I listen to because there's a lot of folks

that I've went through. And like, there's a, and then I don't agree with everything, but I find myself understanding a lot of what they, what's it called, the newly vangelicals. It's one of the ones that I have listened to because I understand because they came from a lot of the charismatic movement kind of where I came out of. And it's, it's, they do really good job of respecting people as far as like, you know, like where they're at this whole thing and not being judgmental towards them. Because it's, but one of the things the reason why I brought him up is is the guy that Tim or something like that. He always

said it was the hardest thing he ever did in his life. And people are like, well, you did this, did this because you don't want to follow the rules. He's like, man, I didn't want to lose all my friends. I didn't want to lose my job. I didn't want to lose my whole social, uh, uh, French structure. Like I lost, he lost it all. And I, I feel like, um, I, the blessing and all this as we moved a lot. So we had to build friendships because, you know, we're, I'm pretty outgoing. And so I made lots of friends and I didn't, I

didn't, okay, where do you go to church? You know, I just, I just, hey, I like that. They're nice people. Let's be friends with them. And so, um, when, when we were going through this, the hardest parts of it, we were actually moving here, you know, and meeting other people outside of the church and people in the church.

church. So I didn't lose everything like some people did because they if you decadstruck and you live in your own town, you might lose it. You might lose everybody. Oh yeah. You're family and everything. And Iris, and I told my wife the other day, I said, I rather is crazy as it sounds. I rather you you break this whole thing down and even end up agnostic or atheist because it might who knows how long or whatever, rather than to live in that lie because I know that that's wrong. And I know it's good. You're gonna get hurt. You're gonna get

used and abused. And I just I mean the alternative has to be better. And who knows where you'll end up? Because once you once you started all over, you're gonna build something back. Yeah. Right? Eventually. And and I think that you know it's a good chance. A lot of people will come back to their their faith. You don't have to be in a building. You know, I mean, we have all been told that our whole lives, you know, that's one of the things like of, you know, keeping us in like little sheep, right? To keep feeding the machine. And being comfortable

with all that, that's hard to do. But but anyway, I know I feel like I'm rambling, but I it's it's a hard thing to walk through and process. And without losing your mind, you know, or at least feel like you are losing your mind. And that's that's kind of where what we've been going through as, you know, lately in that. But I but I feel like we're kind of coming out on the other side and and building something more healthy. And now I've kind of taken another step like doing something like this today. I love love love what you do. And there's

others like you that I feel like people really need to dig in and listen to what you have to say because you've done so much work. And so you know, so much about this. And people need to have an open mind and just really just sit and listen. And I don't don't don't think about it. Just listen. And then be honest with yourself. And because I know there was someone let the comment about on Renee's pie that and I don't care. People again, I respect everybody in where they are. I you're not going to hurt my feelings. And said, you know, you're

rambling on. You know, a lot to do about nothing. And that it's sour grapes. And and I and I responded very kindly. And I said, the fact you're here tells me you're listening to this. You're looking. Just be honest with yourself. It's hard.

It's not easy. Just just just let yourself go through the process. And don't be hard on yourself because it's going to be scary. But you know, but let yourself listen and learn from these from folks and their experiences. And so yeah, that's kind of I don't know. That's just kind of where we are right now. This whole process. So what's a it's a both a difficult place to be and a good place to be because The deconstruction, I'm not going to lie, it's difficult and when somebody starts working with me either offline or in the sport groups, I'd never try to make it sound better than it is.

This will be the hardest thing that you've ever gone through, but if you can make it through to the other side, it will also be the most empowering thing that you've ever gone through.

I have a friend who is semi-famous in this area, I don't know if famous is the right word, but he's built a pretty good name for himself in Christianity in this area. And he was part of the Branham movement, the message, and for years and years and years, he had tore down partway and then tried to go to another church, couldn't make it work, tried another one couldn't make it work.

He tried to make his foundation fit with something else, and he finally just gave up, he says, I guess I'm just not meant to be a Christian, because he had never tore it down, he had never fully deconstructed.

And I met him, I guess it was seven years ago, eight years ago, I met him and we just started talking and I found out, mentally he had left, but mentally he was still trapped in it.

And I started asking him like the basic, basic questions about his faith system and what he believed and why did he believe it? And the root of the problem usually comes down to this, I believe it because that's what I was told to believe.

And so I've accepted this, whatever this belief is, and I've built all this stuff on top of it, I can't just let it go. And my question was, well, if you don't let it go and it's not correct, how can you build anything on top of it and make it stand?

And anyway, long story short, he is now very happily deconstructed, doing very well for himself and very active in his church. And not everybody has the same journey, not everybody will make that same decision, but I feel like if you don't fully deconstruct, you've got this baggage that will always weigh you down.

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I think that trying to, without going all the way down, you end up going, like I kind of mentioned earlier, to something that feels a little comfortable, a little familiar, but you have to go all the way to the core, which is the scariest thing.

I would say things to Renable, because again, I was ahead of her in this whole process, and when I got down to the core, she was like, you're scared, you're scared, because I would say things like, man, I would just challenge different things, and I said, just listen to me.

Don't judge me. I'm just talking. I mean, I'm not telling you what I think, but I'm telling you, I'm questioning this. You know what I mean? This doesn't make any sense to me. Then I look at a lot of the things, the channel Ross, I think you were taught, was he the one that was going out and working, ministering with the homeless?

Yeah, I know we mentioned it, because one of the churches I attended, they worked with the homeless in Jeffersonville and Louisville, so I think I had that conversation with Chino, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I loved it, because he was kind of talking about all this effort and money that people would give, and he was like, he wouldn't did something, like I say, working out, I wouldn't physically went out, wouldn't help these people, and that's kind of like, when I'm looking at this, after I went through all this, and I scared my wife to death, and I kind of

rebuilt some things back. Now I'm kind of at the point where I'm like, okay, I want to go out and do, like, you know, live this out, so I start, I've started donating, like I'm not donating to the churches anymore, because I feel like there's so many things out there that we can do, and a change that we can affect with our finances, with our time, with just us, as people, as being friends with folks.

And it's like, when I look at this thing, that it's like kind of the opposite of what we're seeing now with a lot of the Christian nationalism, and just a lot of just things that are going on that just are, that make me scratch my head.

It's like, I don't feel like we're being the hands of Peter, of Jesus Christ at all at times. I feel like we're not out there helping people, you know, kind of like what we were talking with, with channel, and I just feel like there's so many other things that we could do, as Christians, and as, as people follow Christ, you know, other than this, this thing that we've been taught, like, to your point, like, just, like, dummy down and just, mindless robots, just, just giving millions and billions to these people.

who in turn, I mean, I mean, what they're doing with it, you know, and it's, that's kind of where I'm moving towards this whole idea of like, hey, you know, I'm going to start taking and not being ashamed to, is someone asked me, I, you know, I challenged them, you know, as far as like what they're doing with their time, their effort, I mean, you know, what's the church doing, right? It's, it's because I think that these are tough things that, once you deconstruct, I feel like the church itself needs to have some of this happen

to it and get back to what, what are we here for? What are we doing? Like, like, do we really need to build a $90 million sanctuary? Or, you know what I mean? Or I mean, you know, why are we doing this? Because I think that we don't, I don't know that many people want that answer though. And I think that's, that's one of the reasons why, you know, if we don't stop and take a step back and vote with our feet by moving out with our wallets, then this, none of this is going to change. I don't think personally. I don't think so either.

You know, as long as you give them their money that they're asking for, they're going to continue doing it because why would they stop? When we, when we tried one of the churches here that was really involved with the homeless ministries, homeless ministry, just because I use the word ministry. A lot of people who are in these cults, they mistakenly think that this is somebody who's going to the homeless and just preaching to them. But no, these are people who don't have food. They don't have shelter. And I sat down, I took the pastor out for lunch one day and we, we were just talking about it because my wife had

became active. She was cooking for the homeless and they're preparing meals, doing some things. And he said, John, this is really sad. And I'm not going to name the church. Somebody listening can decide for themselves, but they're the closest thing we have to a mega church in this area with several campuses around massive, massive amounts of money are flowing through this thing. He said they would not donate a dime. And we're talking, these are people who don't have food to eat. That's how bad this is. And the mega church in the area won't give a dime to help them. And he, he said he approached them. He tried

and he said, they just shut them down. He said, our little church, in fact, I think the church actually kind of, they imploded and had to merge because they did not have enough money to feed the poor and to sustain the building. So the mega church with the millions of dollars flowing through it won't give a dime. The little guy who can't hardly keep the lights on in his own church is the one who's helping the poor. That's how upside down this mess is. Yeah. And, you know, and that also underscores the fact that there

are good places out there. And you can find them if you look hard enough, but I think these Aga Church is you think about Olstein and Driscoll. I think Olstein made 55 million just on books last year.

Like, Mark Driscoll. I mean, these guys are pulling in, Judith Smith and Frank, Jenison Frank. I mean, these guys are pulling in billions of dollars. And I mean, you know, when you look at, I guarantee if you dug in to what they're give back to the community, it's probably a small, well, you know, the two to eight percent's probably generous and some for some of these folks, you know.

And I think you mentioned it in one of your podcasts recently that just eliminating the tax exemption status for sure. I'm all in. I think I've seen so much and just my little experience, just myself, you know, a couple of churches I go, my wife, you know, she was on staff.

And she would see this same thing. I mean, we're bringing in a lot of money. There's a big place and a lot of people were turned away. I mean, we did help some people.

I'm not going to, I'm not saying we didn't, but I will tell you there was a lot more we could have done. I have a lot more. And that's why for me personally, I'm going right to some of these organizations and sponsoring like a room for a homeless for a year or whatever, I just did that recently.

Just little, just wherever I can see like, hey man, like I want to give it right to the organization that's doing this locally, you know, because I think that again, I mean, to your point, I mean, this happens everywhere.

I mean, these big churches that they just aren't, you know, and you know, you can imagine how much, I mean, like yourself, you know, I can't say, I mean, thousands I've given over the years.

I think about how much I could have helped people. I mean, it's, you know, and then I told them a wife the other day, I'm like, you know, we all have friends or family that are suffering.

If I give all this money to the church and then they do whatever, and I don't help my family or my kids, and when am I telling them, you know, I mean, to me, I think that's important.

That I, you know, I show these people around me that the love that, you know, and help, and then just let them know, hey, I see you, I understand. You know, if I am ever in need, I hope you help me.

And I think it's starting, like, almost like grassroots, so to speak, you know, so that's kind of where, you know, I've kind of landed with all of that. What's a good place to be helping people?

Really, that's what this is all about. You should go to church, you should hear the gospel, yes, but hearing the gospel and letting somebody suffer because they don't have food, can you really call that Christianity?

I personally can't. I don't, I think it's, it's got a different mission. So let's talk a little bit about Jeffersonville. So you were, you said, Your family is connected to Jeffersonville here where the headquarters of Christ's Gospel Church.

What was it like for you when you come to Jeffersonville and saw the headquarters of the Christ's Gospel? Yeah, when I was young, we would come up for like July convention or March convention.

And it was just like there was this, we get to see, you know, sister Hicks or, you know, whatever. And it was just like everyone was in awe and the services were wild and I was little, right?

And I mean, oh my goodness man, hours and hours, right? And then as I, you know, grew up in that and as I got older, then I got involved with the youth conventions and stuff like that.

And man, we were just so excited to come to the mothership or whatever we called it. I don't know if kids had nicknames for it. But it was always, I guess when we were younger, it was a treat, so to speak, to be able to sit and listen to her.

And I mean, I do remember, I will tell you that I couldn't understand anything. It was, she would say all this weird stuff and then she'd make those loud, you know, words she would, you know, speaking of tongues or whatever.

And I was like, it was wild, man. And you know, I was, be honest. The older I got, it didn't help me understand it. I was like, man, I was right. But this is crazy, you know, but yeah, it's kind of the way, you know, it was always this thing of, like you always wanted, like we go to youth convention, she would be in the youth, it was a smaller, we back from my dad's funeral and I saw the building.

And I always thought it was just massive, the youth place, the center or whatever, it's tiny. And she would be in there and we would always be like, this is going to be in there because after the service, we'd go in there and eat snacks or whatever.

And it was just, basically we're just worshipping her. You know what I mean? It was just, I mean, that's all it was. She was the false deity. Yeah. And it was, and so I mean, you know, I lived in Evansville

and I will say my pastor I grew up with was an amazing human being. And I, you know, I don't know if you've had a boss or a manager in life where he was really good at taking the garbage from up here and not letting it get to you in protecting, you know, the folks he manages.

That was my pastor and what that I grew up with. I'm, he married myself in my Renee and loved him to death. And I don't ever remember him teaching crazy stuff. I mean, we were in it.

He was obviously taught the standards. But a lot of that stuff, I don't, I'm guessing he got in trouble because he did not, I don't know, just a guess. But he was really good at just being good human.

and loving his, the folks in his church. And I did, I did appreciate him and I was very thankful to have known him. And but other than that, man, it was a wild ride, you know.

We had a hell and, and we were only two hours away for Jacksonville. So we were there a lot, you know. We were there every chance my mom could get. So. I think that's a good point to bring out because the national media and all the documentaries that you see, whenever they investigate a cult, whatever cult it is, cult A, B, C, D, when they investigate cult A, and then suddenly, somebody realizes that, wait, cult A, they've got a church in our town.

They're just like this in this documentary. But what you see in the documentary, they're showing you the worst of the worst, right? I, too, had some really good leaders that I came in contact with in the message cult.

They were off base, they did not understand the Bible. You know, I give them, I give them a little bit of leeway just because I was in the same boat as they were, right?

But they were truly, truly good people. And as far as cultish, some of the men that I knew, they were not at all. They, in fact, they would frown to think that they would even be considered to be a cult.

But then there were those others. They longed for the power, they were hungry for the power. Money power, I don't know if there was power, if there was money in sex, and some of them, I guess there were in a few that I knew.

But most of the cases that they just wanted the power, they liked the respect that they got from it, and they fed on that. Yeah, yeah, and I feel like that in these organizations, like I say, the money, sex, and power, it's like, it could be one, it could be all, but I think power is in all of them.

I think that's the initial draw of it, is they do something, and they, oh man, did you see that reaction? And then that, and it just feeds that, and it feeds it, and from there, it grows into whatever.

We've seen it, I mean, because my pastor, it's funny, to your point, not all of them were crazy like that when you look at a documentary, but I will tell you, I've been in plenty of them that were, that should have been in the documentary, missed them.

And they would have, it would have been great if they would have discovered them, but you know, but some of them were just, oh my goodness, and I was so thankful that that wasn't, Renee got more of that than I did, more of the crazy, and you know, and I felt like growing up, I was very thankful looking back that, for my pastor that I have, because he shielded us from a lot of that stuff.

Yeah. But he was a good guy. Yeah, but yeah, but no, it's it was interesting and we

went when I grew up and went to college, one of my best friends that that brought me to Missouri.

He introduced me to another couple of guys brothers and their their dad was the pastor in Missouri they were a great family as well. A very kind, brought us in, true to slight family and as all good cults do, they split, you know, in the family.

That great family went one way, the other family knew with the other and I had both of them call me where he was going to go. I'm like, I don't know, you know, and it was just it was horrible, but but yeah, we we've had some good ones along the way. I mean, if you're going to be in a cult, I mean, you know, we had some good cults. Yeah, what you said made me really, I feel really sympathetic for the people in the Civil War. Once you've been through a cult and you understand how it grows and splits and all of this and then you see both sides of the split and they're both

good people, right? It makes you really sympathetic for what happened during the Civil War. But yeah, I I shared some good experiences. I had some usually they were away from Jeffersonville. When I came back to Maca, that's where all the crazies were kind of concentrated. So you saw some weird things we used to have every Easter. There used to be this big, I think it was a box truck, but the guy had painted Joseph is Lord. Joseph is William Brannum's son. So he would be the son of the cult central figure. He would write Joseph is Lord and he would park it right there by my

grandfather's church, shut the keys off and lock the door. So everybody walked in the building and it's hard, you know, I look at it and that was nuts, but I feel sorry for the guy because he's trapped in this religion that spawns off this hero worship. And the first time I saw it when I moved back here and I'm seeing all the crazy stuff, I thought, man, this is really weird, that guy's off his rocker. And nobody's going to think that the son is God, right? And lo and behold, I'm here for it was oblivious to me for about a year, but after a year,

I suddenly started to realize that in the church, there were these three categories of people. You had those that worshiped the cult leader, William Brannum, who's dead, those who worship his son who's still alive and those who thought both sides were nuts. God, it's like strange the fiction, man. It's unbelievable. Stranger things, the religious version.

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure, but I went back home and you know, we went for my Renee share the story and me going in and meeting with them prior to my dad's funeral and

Strange like like just the feeling you get when you walk in there. It's just it's just so impressive And it's it's just bizarre and you you just look at this and like man like like you know How do these people still do this like like you know you're like like like it's 2024 or 25 Yeah, it's like like I mean have you guys not let just Google I mean just just just for you know There's for the heck of it Google some say any of this and I think I don't know. It's just it's just so bizarre

Like it's a stranger things the religious version. Definitely Definitely man. Well, and the sad thing is so I've also had to come to terms with this I had to come to terms with deconstruction. That's hard. We talked about it before. That's the most difficult thing you'll ever do Well, I also had to come to terms with the fact that some people Will go down that journey so far and see how hard it is and Then purposefully go right back in and I've seen it a few times after leaving I work with people who came out they knew every single thing they were asking me questions telling me things

I didn't know that was false right and then they went so far and realized wait a minute the moment I do this I'm gonna lose every friend I had I'm gonna lose all of my family some people were employed by people who Were a part of the cult so they're gonna lose their job may lose their house I mean there they literally will lose everything and some people say I just can't do this in fact I had one person blatantly tell me said I'm sorry. I know it's wrong But I'm not going to lose all everything for doing this and I'll just go and be happy in the cult

Okay, that's that's your journey. It's not mine, but that's your journey. Yeah Yeah, and you know, I I won't say who it is It's it's I don't know. It's you see some of these people that they'll they'll go and but they'll still maybe dress the same or You're just like what they can't get this out of them and I think some people are afraid You know what I mean? They're just they're just like when I when we left the one pastor who's not even in and anymore He's like you're gonna miss the prize. I'm like dude. What prize are you talking about man?

Was I gonna get something Go back Is it worth anything? Is it all the money I gave you? And I'm like dude, what what are you talking about and but some people will get told you're gonna miss the prize And then they they'll fret and worry and like oh man, maybe he's right, you know, and I just think it's and you know And they might they might get away for a brief moment and let you say they go right back in it Yeah, you know, and I just it's it's wild Fear wild the fear is a big thing. I have seen countless women who they leave

They start wearing the pant like you said they start wearing normal clothes and And then they'll tell me, John, I'm going back to my mother's house and I've got to put on a dress so that I don't offend her.

She's requiring me to wear a dress in her house. And I'm like, well, do you require her to wear pants when she comes over to your house? Because it works both ways, right? If you're going to set the boundaries in this house, you can also set it in the other house.

But there's that fear, right? And the fear, I joked with the person, but honestly, I'm sad for the situation. Because the fear isn't what most people would think in all of this thing. The fear is that what little thread of relationship that they have, that thread will be severed if the person enters the house wearing the different clothes.

And that tells you the power and the destruction of a cult because it's stronger than the bond between a mother and a daughter. That's how bad this is. Yeah. And I, you know, I don't remember if Renee said, but both of our parents are, well, my mom is still in it.

Her parents are still, they don't go, they physically can't, but, and most of her family still claim to be, you know, part of it, again, most of them are elderly and just can't, physically can't go.

But it's, it's sad. And I think a lot of it is that they put so much into this and it's, it's fear, it's the anxiety of, of starting over, you know, and they just don't want to know.

I mean, it's like, and maybe they do know, maybe they feel like that they're all their chips around and they just have to ride it out and hope that they're right. And I just, it's just sad.

It breaks my heart. Yeah. It really does. It is sad. If you could give some advice to somebody who is about to take their journey and going down the pathway of deconstructing, what advice would you give them?

I think that when you first go into it, I didn't know this, but you learned it quickly. It's hard. Number one, super, super hard. So saying that you have to have the fortitude and the strength to not get mad at yourself, to not worry about being embarrassed about, oh my goodness, I spent my whole life, whatever, you can't, you can't think about any of that.

You got to, you're going to, you're going to experience it, but you can't let it stop you. And you can't be afraid to think about things in ways you've never thought about them before.

That might scare you and make you think that, you know, you're, you know, you're going against God or whatever, he's okay. You have to get okay and you have to go through these things and you have to just have the fortitude and the strength and the courage to go all the way through.

You can't go part of the way, you can't go through. the way you got to go all the way through and I really feel that if you do I feel like you'll be surprised once you get through on the other side I feel like the air is clear you know you can bring it easier you can see more clearly and I will tell you can't unsee what you see on the other side you can't unsee it and then once you do that all the way you won't go back I believe all my heart I once you see the you know what's on the other side of this and I just

think I think you have to do that because if you don't you won't last long yeah you know you may not even start you know you might think you're gonna start you just say you know it's too hard it's a very good advice and I will add to that because I'm an emotional person and this whenever you're going through something that difficult if you're an emotional person you'll struggle with your emotions and things your thoughts will come out emotionally and sometimes it may come out in anger sometimes it may come out in humor which is

out of place I was doing this all over the board all over the place and as I was deconstructing there there were times that I remember making my wife so angry because I'm just so mad it came out as though I'm so mad at things I shouldn't be but that's not the way it was that's not me it was just me trying to break through this so I learned very carefully and after a few meltdowns in the family some things you have to process before you express them verbally yeah that's that's my piece of advice yep yep and you know what John you had the

nail and head there it's like going to the stages of grief oh yeah and then anger's part of it I mean it really is I mean I I'm getting better because I see some of the stuff now especially like with some of the things the church is doing and I I still get super angry I'm like like like why why would they say that why would they treat those people like that why would they treat those people like that like and but I have to understand that they're not those people aren't there yet they have obviously I'm deconstructed and so but to

your point it's like being it just it's okay you're gonna you're gonna go through those things you know just learn how to not take it out on somebody else yeah exactly it's it's unhealthy yeah it is it is and no you're gonna scare people that aren't where you're at that's the other thing I have to you know I've said it before but yeah but it's worth it it's it's it's it's so it's so worth it man I feel like I yeah I feel like like the relationship with God it's everything's different because you're kind of seeing him for who he

really who he is to you not only you get to make it up but I mean by and thinking on your own and not being told how to look at it, you know, and think about it.

And that's part of the reason why we're not going anywhere right now is because we, I don't, while I'm doing this, I don't want to get caught up in that thing of, well, we get friends with this person or the pastor or whatever and all of a sudden, now I'm, you know, I'm letting myself work through this so no one can take it from me. And, you know what I mean? Because those guys are good. Some of them are really talented. You know, like convincing you to follow them, you know, you know, so. Well, this has been a fun conversation. Thank you so much for coming here and

sharing your, sharing your thoughts. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I appreciate everything you do. You're doing an amazing thing and we've turned a lot of people on to you. And I just hope that you, I know it's a lot of work, man. I get it. But I mean, I just appreciate you doing this for.

Well, thank you. Thank you. Hopefully it helps some people who are listening. So well, thanks for doing this and tell you why if I said hello and we'll hopefully I'm getting some more people from Christ's gospel church that'll share their story. There's so much more that people are wanting to hear. I just got an email two days ago and they're wanting to hear more about the inner workings of Christ's gospel. So hopefully some listeners will share their story.

Yeah. Yeah. There's so many things that that being as we were always in like part of the inner workings, anywhere we went, you know, we would always volunteer. We always on the board at places. And there were so many things that, you know, and I kind of wanted to take a little bit different path here just to kind of share, just to encourage people to to go down this path.

But as far as Christ's gospel, there are so many things that would just blow your mind. Well, I wouldn't blow your mind because you've seen it too. But the listeners, just the nuts and bolts and the things they did with the witness and the things that happen behind the scenes that some of which I probably shouldn't, I wouldn't say because it's, you know, you know, I don't know. I'm assuming someone listening might, you know, come after you or whatever because like, you know, I don't want to say illegal or whatever. But there's some stuff that was just crazy.

And I, you know, and I, Scott did a really good job of talking about the teachings and things that I remember. But the inner workings, like if there was someone that would come in and just the structure of it and how they did things and not just what they taught, but it's wild. How they move people around and how they treated families and how they treat my wife's dad. And John, it was, it was something, man. And all of it was to bring money into the the offerings that she would take up at conventions and raise six figures to remodel a mansion.

And then all the 100 guys that were in this big auditorium that would volunteer to come do it, there was just a lot. I mean, if I started thinking about it, it's just, yeah, you should talk to other people because everybody's going to come at it from a different angle and remember something different and I enjoy listening to it too because I'm like, oh my God, I forgot about that.

That was crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Hopefully somebody does listen to this and they'll come share their story and if you have enjoyed the show and you want to share your story, you can check us out on the web and you can contact us there on the contact page at William-Branum.org.

For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.