When Nonsense Becomes Gospel: An Interview With Gabriel Landmark

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org and with me I have my very special guest, Gabriel Landmark, former member of Faith Assembly and the message. Gabriel is good to have you on and to finally connect so that we can hear your story. We've been chatting a good bit through email and scheduling finally connected us so I'm glad that we can and I was debating do I say former member of Faith Assembly or former member of the

message because we have a Faith Assembly cult that came from ironically was a spin-off of the message and we have a Faith Assembly church which was a yet another spin-off of the message so you're the one that is not Hobart Freeman and anyway I thought it would be good if you just take a moment and introduce yourself. Well as you said I'm Gabriel Landmark I'm from the actually Minnesota so it's a little different in that regard so far north of where most of us has all taken place. I do come from the same church that Charles

Paisley had come from and I remember when he left it was kind of interesting because I didn't know where he went he was just kind of gone and nothing was really said about that from anybody so that's kind of where the curiosity started in a way of like the hardcore research but more back on myself I grew up in the message I was born into it in that regard mom my whole family going back to my great grandpa's when that all started and we're just kind of a bunch of farmers trying to serve the Lord I guess and I happened to be more scientific techie and

kind of felt more separated that way and have my own ideas of how things work so that's me sounds like me you're a high tech redneck and that's how I grew up only you're a redneck from the north I guess that has a different implication than from the south but yeah so we we share some background in the fact that we were both in the message but the faith assembly sect was a little bit different than what we had learning from Charles the differences as I go but in the main sect of the message we thought Brannum could do no wrong

and it was my grandfather would hold up his hands like this and say it was more accurate than today's newspaper and then he would introduce the recording and the recording would be riddled with inaccuracies but that's what we've listened to and according to Charles this was I guess Raymond Jackson posed the thought that all of these riddles and contradictions and mess that was created, Brandon was trying to weed out the bad weeds of the group so did you ever as you were growing up, did you ever come across any of those thoughts or any any critical thinking about the message itself?

I went to public school and so I had hung out with all the like Lutherans Catholics, Baptists, atheists, pagans if you will even I mean one of my friends in school was Muslim so it's like I had all these conflicting ideas and then you go to church on Sunday and we're the select few people that are going to be bride of Christ but then they'll say stuff like that one quote which I've heard it's said before the if I tell you there's a purple elephant with polka dots in the parking lot then believe it because I said so which

is like how do you test that I mean it I guess and maybe that's my problem is I'm too scientific because it's like well how can you can't prove to me because you won't let me go out and look you know and then the other things it was like NASA was lying to us about how vast space was and just a few other things where they would read X amount of verses but then stop before it would like kind of in a way not contradict itself but like fill out the whole thought of like here's the big picture but that part is bad so let's not read

wait down and then brother random said this well if you look at it no he didn't but okay just have some random stuff it was like sometimes I think I just blanked out and it was just like well I'm here because I'm here I clearly remember sitting in a room and there were you know it was all the family and we're sitting there and they're talking brother brand him this brother brand him that you've probably been in family environments where it's like this everything out of their mouth as brother brand him said this brother brand him said that and at a cousin I don't know

how he got on the subject but he said and I and I believe what he said everything that he said he said that it takes a million light years to get to the moon and or to Mars and I believe it and I'm sitting there I've seen the Mars Rover man I know that I know that we have a Mars rover there and we sent a rocket to get there but the actual quote was it would take a an angel a million light years to get from earth to Mars and he was condemning the Mars initiative

he said we'll never get there and I you know that was back in the 50s and 60s they were saying this nonsense. On today's technology things have changed so significantly that you can't really try to say that those things are true if you have any sense whatsoever but I've come to the conclusion that the lack of critical thinking that you're manipulated to have in the group makes you turn what is common sense to everybody else in the rest of the world completely upside down.

Yeah it's well and that's interesting because you can go look it up and light takes eight minutes to travel from the Sun so if the Sun goes out you don't realize that for eight minutes so and the Sun is vastly farther than Mars you know it's just yeah but they're never and that's the thing they don't care they're never going to look they're never going to really figure it out and and that was always my thing is I love space I wanted to be a astronaut I was like ready to go do it except I have asthma so they typically only take people that breathe apparently uh you know

it but it's like the little things like that so if you can't even get that right are you getting the big picture stuff right are you really what you're reading is that really what it means because I could tell you one thing and 10 people can listen to it and they're going to think completely different of each other you know but it's story story of God so it's you know and I make it make it sound bad but it's like people die for it man it's really sad I know people who have there's different personality types

my personality type is oddly everything that I'm doing right now is outside of my personality type I'm the guy that if I go to a big party I'm standing in a corner sipping coffee watching everybody else have fun and I just I'd rather be kind of alone and reclusive that's my personality there are other people who just can't stop talking and I have family members that can't stop talking and it's funny because they realize that they have this personality trait and they start rambling and they realize that they've said things that just don't make sense and they expect you to know this

and laugh with them as they laugh about it and what it looks like happen you've got a man William Bram who gets behind the stage and gets behind a microphone and he's starting to ramble and he says all of this nonsensical stuff I truly believe he he did not believe half the stuff he said.

He was just rambling to fill a microphone to fill a recording. And yet what happened was because of the hero worship in the group, everybody started taking every single thing that he said like the Pharisees and lawyers did back in Jesus' time.

If they can find that he said something, that is the ultimate truth, that is the law. And they don't realize the concept of somebody who's just talking BS. And that's pretty much what he was doing about 90% of his sermons.

And that's what's so interesting. So I was born in 95. So not a lot of like what Charles has talked about in the church going down of witness per se. So you know, and that was growing up, learning about William Brannum.

It was kind of like, yeah, he started the thing and was our prophets were building off that per se. So it's like a lot of things that he probably actually said. I have no regulation about because I don't know.

So then it's just kind of like, well, I have to take your word for it because, well, I heard him. And then the other problem is you got the pastor there now

is from the other pastor that actually was with Brannum. So now you're playing the telephone game because Jackson, he died I think 2004. So it's like, he said, she said, we said game. And then it's just, it gets twisted because it's like even me, you could tell me something three days later, I'm gonna repeat it and probably get 80% of it correct.

And now you're talking from 1940s, 50s, 60s to 2020. That's a long time. And then don't listen to that tape because he said something kind of weird. So we won't, you know, air that one.

I've seen that before. So let's talk about that a little bit. So what you're essentially describing is how a splintered group works. So you had the main sect of the message from that splintered, the Raymond Jackson faith assembly sect.

And interestingly, the Hobart Freeman faith assembly sect, both groups from faith assembly and from Hobart Freeman, both did not have any direct thought about random, kind of like you described. They went to instead the new cult leader.

And now you're talking about a different splintered group that is, it's still the same cult, same sect, but it essentially is forming into a new splintered group, which will have a new leader, new theology.

And that level of contradiction there, the opinions of the new guy won't match the opinions of Raymond Jackson. Raymond Jackson clearly did not match the opinions of William Branham. So there's no cohesiveness to all of this.

Let's talk through that a bit. Have you explored differences between the new leader of your sect and Raymond Jackson? I think it's more chillaxed, as I like to say. It's not so. Because we would listen when the internet would go out up here.

We would go back and listen to old tapes that we would get. Because they would email our mail the tapes up from down there, and it was Brother Jackson. And it was a lot more aggressive and hurry up.

Because Doomsday is like tomorrow, man. And I remember even my own uncle said that his little kids won't even get through school so why doesn't matter. Because we're not going to be here. It's like, well, OK, but you should still have a plan.

And a lot of people went into debt because of it. So now the tune has turned to, well, we're on borrowed time. Because people aren't ready. You guys aren't good enough. AKA basically is what they're getting at to, for the Jesus to come back to take us away.

You know, it's like, well, I don't know. It says no one knows the date. And I think the date to set somewhere, whether you're ready or not, it's kind of like hide and seek, man.

If that's all true in regard to that, but it's like the difference. So I think it's a lot more relaxed in a way. And that'd be my opinion on it. Because yeah, I was so young too.

And it makes that hard. But just from listening and remembering it, it seemed like a lot, a lot more relaxed for a long time, which now it's ramped way back up when the last time I watched.

So I don't know. It's kind of a crazy, crazy town. You mentioned borrowed time. It's interesting how leaders try to reconcile the things that can't be reconciled. And we had, in the main sec, we had the same thing.

So William Brannum apparently prophesied to his son, Billy Paul. Before you're an old man, this ground that you're standing on right here in the middle of downtown Los Angeles will be underneath the ocean and sharks will be swimming here.

And I remember this tour by Billy Paul. My dad actually sponsored one of his meetings in the tour. And he'd came and he would talk about how we're living on borrowed time because he's getting on up there in age.

And this was in late 1980s, right? And he lived until just a couple of years back as when he finally did pass away. So we lived on borrowed time from the 80s whenever he was an old man until the mid-2020, early 2020s.

So then after he dies, people try to reconcile even that. And this said, well, I think they're had been a fish tank right there where he was standing, and so because they might have had a shark in that fish tank, that prophecy was fulfilled and we're going to just, through cognitive dissonance, erase it, not thinking about the fact that the whole city is supposed to be underwater, but a fish tank reconciles this.

So it's interesting that your sect was reconciling in the same way. Doomsday didn't happen, we're still here. How do you make sense of this? Well, God's giving us borrowed time. Yeah, because that's how it works.

And when it's interesting, because speaking of the different sects and everybody's right and everybody follows the same guy, we were told that you guys worshiped him like he was God. And I'm not really getting that vibe from listening to videos and whatnot, but then I was curious because the one day I was just kind of going through YouTube and that Brannum Tavardakal came up, like Sunday's past service or whatever, and I looked at it and this is at the thumbnail and say, huh, you could just print Thaif assembly over that because it looks the same.

So I clicked on it and watched a little bit, it's like, it's not really any different, but hold my word, you guys are double worshipers. Well, so there were multiple tiers of false worship of heresy, I should say.

Back in the early 60s, you had T.L. Osborne, who's big in the word of faith. He helped Kenneth Hagan launch the thing at William Brannum's memorial service. He said, we just saw God in the flesh.

God has came down in human flesh, referring to William Brannum. So that would have been not just the message cult, but that would have been charismatic movement as it is beginning to form. Charismania apparently believed this in the early years.

Nobody condemned him of heresy because apparently everybody believed this. So Laterane had this notion of Joel's army where God was pouring out his spirit and that spirit was coming down and they would go to these specific Bible passages that clearly talking about the return of Jesus Christ, but they would apply it to the movement.

So then what happened is it turned from William Brannum being God in the flesh to the movement itself being God in, I don't know what you even call that, spirit or multiple fleshes. God coming down in multiple fleshes.

And so there were a lot of people that believed that the message was the return of Jesus Christ. I don't know, the thoughts and intents of William Brannum's mouth and all of his opinions and nonsense like the, we're not going to make it to Mars in 100 light years.

That was God in the flesh to many people in the message. I would say probably that's where I sat on the subject. However, my grandfather. In his resignation speech, he clearly said that William Brannum was God tabernacled in human flesh.

So that's a step of heresy further than where I was. My grandfather, who was the head pastor at the main sect, Brannum tabernacled church, believed that the human form of William Brannum was actually God.

And he openly declared it as he is resigning from the church. He's resigning because there's this big movement coming to Jeffersonville that they also have additional tears of heresy, some of which include William Brannum's son being God in the flesh.

And then the son takes over, they outgrow the church, and then it turns into what you saw on the internet. Well, and that right there, it's like, so do you guys believe the Trinity then?

Because that's kind of what it sounds like to me, because it's interesting. So I am probably the worst out of all the people. This is nothing against her or anything she knows. My wife is Lutheran.

We got married in a Lutheran church with a Lutheran pastor doing it the Lutheran way. And my thought it was like, well, that's what she wants. We agreed that we weren't going to try to pull each other either way.

She believes this, well, she will come. I mean, it's kind of like, well, the Lord's will and everything, you know, and then it's like, well, and she thought the same. She goes, well, she finally sees the craziness that he goes to church and because she's come before, you know, then hopefully he will break out of it because when we were dating and engaged and stuff, she would come down, you know, and come to service or whatever and dress appropriately or whatever, because it's like the other thing, too, is she doesn't dress like most people think that a worldly person dresses like either.

So, you know, I don't know, it's just this weird divide, but then saying that and saying that, well, he's literally God again, well, then, yeah, so then, okay, so is he Jesus then? Because that's confusing, but, you know, no one will fact check that, it's just, I don't know, like they hand him a shovel and dig the whole deeper is the problem.

And then, well, that's not actually what I said, what I said, and then it's even worse. Whenever I was a kid, I actually tried to bring people into the message. I was one of the few who believed it strongly enough to do this.

And I'll never forget getting into an argument with it. But I understand now was a very strong Christian friend of mine. And he was trying, I was telling him that I did not believe in the Trinity.

I believed differently. And he was explaining to me all of the Bible verses that support the Trinity. planetary in belief, and he's going right to the ones that we have indoctrination. The quotes just fly out of your mouth instantly because we've been indoctrinated to attack those.

And he's describing the verses. And I'll never forget the moment in that argument where he's arguing with me about the Trinity. And I read the Bible. I was also one of the few Christians who read the Bible.

So I read it. I knew that God sent his son, God loved the whole world, so he sent his son. And I knew that his son said he sent the Holy Spirit. So I believed essentially what the Trinitarians believed.

But I had been falsely taught that Trinitarians believed in three gods, not one. And so I remember this long debate we got in. And I was trying to convince him to understand how he believed, why he shouldn't believe the Trinity because he was believing in three gods.

And he was trying to explain to me, no, that's not what the Bible says at all. He's literally saying exactly what I believe, but he's using the word Trinity. So our argument, and this probably, gosh, it's probably a two hour argument, it was over the Trinity.

And literally it came down to his use of the word Trinity. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like when you start realizing what these people actually believe, it's not what they said, but then the next problem is, well, did you ever actually go look when they said that?

No, you just took it as they did and went. I mean, I did too for the longest time because it's, well, actually, how I came to realize that this is more of a cult than a religion is I started watching this lady on YouTube.

She's ex Mormon and she's about the same age as I am. And she was kind of going over a lot of things that what the Mormons did and everything. And I started to think, it's like, man, this is really similar in a lot of ways.

There's a lot of ways that it's not either, but it got really got me thinking one thing led to the next. And I remember I was like, well, I wonder what happened to Charles because all of a sudden I was, he was preaching one Sunday night.

And then the next Sunday night, I was visiting my wife, so I wasn't there. And then I come back in the next Sunday, oh, yeah, Charles, Charles ain't preaching anymore. He's not even in the building like, well, so now I remember asking what happened.

Oh, he said some stuff about brother Brannum. But, okay, well, what stuff could not get a straight answer for anybody? And it's like, okay, well, I could write an email to, you know, the pastor down there.

It's like, well, good luck with that. That's a thought experiment in itself right there. So then what was funny is I was doing some race, my own research on Brannum and all Google was because I remember somebody saying that brother Brannum was a pedophile and that's why they kicked Charles out or did some something. So I typed it in Google was William Brannum a pedophile. Well then after you scroll for a while because they're all bias claims because I already know all the other side. Let's listen to the other side for a little bit. And I think I came on your website and then it

was like here follow our YouTube page. So I did it and then there's Charles the space like, huh? Well, let's listen to a couple of these. It's like, oh, no. And I remember I called my wife. I'm like, Hey, uh, yeah, it's kind of weird. I think my phone where Charles is she goes, Oh, where is that while I'm like, well, the other thing is I think I'm in a cult. She goes, yeah, like, yeah. She goes, why do you think that? So I'm like, I don't know. But let me get back to you because this, this requires some in depth research because

you just can't, you know, there's, and that's the problem is you can find anything on the internet. But then it's like everything you have access to, I can go look for it. It's not like you have some secret wisdom somewhere granted. Yeah, you lived more of the old school way than I did. But it's like, I could go look at the records. And I did. And it's like, hmm.

Well, this is kind of confusing now. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website William-Brannum.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute

to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. You know, I've been waiting for somebody to bring up the William-Brannum as a pedophile claim, because I I choose to go down the path of historical research where I can document the history. And there are certain topics that you cannot document because they happen behind closed doors. But I have had a conversation with

the person who has made that claim. And it's not just in one place. This my conversation with this person essentially was this, his father came out of the message because he According to this person, his father had been molested by William Brannum, and when I had that conversation with him, there was a lot that I did not know about William Brannum or his inner circle, and so I just fully discredited.

There's no way this is real, right? And then after that, you start coming across so many things that may be not directly corroborate his story, but does indirectly. And one of the first things that I came across was Lee Veil talking about how there were men inside William Brannum's inner circle who were homosexual, and they were actively engaging in homosexual acts.

And I found newspaper articles, and most recently I even found a CIA document that kind of corroborates that story. Many figures who Brannum's sponsors in multiple countries was caught in these type of situations.

So you have this inner circle that's just filthy, I'll just say it like that. And my family knew this. I was not able to say it until Charles found a document, but Roy Borders, who was instrumental in helping set up the voice of God recordings, all of this stuff, he apparently had a lot of relations with women as he would go on the overseas tours.

And this was a rumor that I couldn't cooperate, so I could not really document this. But when Charles found the document by what's his name, Gerald Lee Walker, he talks about the situation that's happening, and he doesn't mention the name, but he's talking about the Roy Borders situation.

So it kind of gives me an outlet where I can say it and still have a document to go back on. I still have no document to go back on for the person who claims that his father was molested.

However, I can say this, he's not the only one that has told me that. There have been several people who've either hinted at it or given me situations that they're really describing something that's awful happening.

I can't say whether it did or whether it didn't, but I can say that there are the mouth of two or three witnesses. And that's the thing is that I heard once from people in the program, AK, black programs saying that it was a really interesting quote, because it really hits home all secrets have an expiration date, it doesn't matter what they are, everything will come out.

It might take several thousand years, but it comes out, and then it's a thing. It's like how many people have said it. Are they all lying? Do they all know each other or they just, you know, sad to say, but some people do it for attention, you know, but after a while, and especially when you're like in some like this, I don't think you are. Whether he did it or not is besides the point, there's just kind of the... That's what he said. I wanted to see what Google said. And from what I found, there was

some really strange stories, but they would never... I guess they really danced around it. Because it was like, well, you're still trying to protect them in that regard, which abuse people do. Yeah. And you know, that's in my conversation with the person whose father apparently had been abused. The person, for them to say that publicly, it actually put them at more risk than just keeping silent about it. So he had nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing it. He was more...

In my conversation with him, he was like more warning people that this is messed up, what you guys are in. This is messed up. And again, when he first said it and I came across it, when I had the conversation, I discredited the whole thing. I thought, there's no way this is possible, but I'll say that if I had that conversation again now, I would think about it a lot more than I did back then. And that's so weird too, because it's like, I know, and we would go down there to convention. And that's all people wanted to talk about. It was like church stuff. And I'm like,

let's go do things, dude. This is vacation, man. We're a thousand miles south. Everybody talks weird, everything looks different. They always told me I talk fancy because of the northern accent, you know. But it's like, there was some stuff you couldn't bring up. Otherwise, guess who's getting preached at next Sunday? It's just weird. But it makes me wonder now thinking back, because I have no friends down there anymore. Or most of them, I'd say 98% of them have left.

The last time I went down, it was kind of like, oh, okay, well, I guess I'm here. But I would wonder what they would say about some stuff, because they're not attached anymore. And it's like, were you really skating around and for how long? Because I feel like there's a lot of people ready to leave. It's just pulling the trigger, because you've invested so much time into it.

And I feel like that's where I was for a really long time. It's like, well, been in it for 28 years. I mean, everybody else kind of in the same boat. You know, it's like, wait it out and see who do you know, run our see how long borrowed time goes. Well, there's some people that they like to continue borrowing and make it even worse.

I had several friends who were in the message who you could clearly tell that they were struggling to keep what we called keeping the faith. But essentially, they weren't keeping the Christian faith, they were trying to reconcile all the issues in their head.

And the really strange part about it is, after I came out and started being very public and vocal about all of the real underlying problems, it seems like people who were on the fence, the indoctrinated responses to anybody who's in opposition, caused them to dig in deeper.

And some of the same friends that I was certain after I left and published my information, I was really certain that they would just leave because they didn't believe it. But what happens is they dig in and they get even more devout as an internal mechanism that tries to make it where it doesn't feel so wrong to be in it.

They just dig in deeper. And so in doing so, it makes it really hard for some of the people to get out. The thing is, it's like, I'm really thankful that I've always been as open-minded as I was, but then you could go back and be, well, how come you never noticed?

Well, it's because I never really looked into it. It was just, we went to this church, those people down the street, they went to that church. They weren't mean to us. We weren't mean to them.

No one tried to convert each other. And I feel like it helped being up here kind of isolated in a lot of ways. And being out in the general public, 90% of your life, because it's like, well, everybody believes everything at some point, you know, and we're just kind of the landmarks that kind of have church and great grandpa's living room.

And that's that, but the fact that you could not walk up to somebody that like after a church service and be like, hey, here's a stack, this deep of why the thing is wrong, they would burn it.

And then they would say that a devil approached me last night in flesh. He's trying to root us out, you know, because that was the other thing. We could get to that later that everything is the devil, because I got so much that needs to get out of my thoughts.

Which planning on doing it here in a way of like, it's not the devil. Sorry, it's just how things work. And you know, and that's in the problem with that is maybe you're serving the wrong side.

You know, do you ever think about that? Sheeps, you know, wolves and sheep clothing. That's kind of a phrase they like to bring up a lot. Well, maybe the very people you're staring at are the wolves.

Not saying they are, but you got to, at some point, you got to consider everything. That actually answers another question I was going to ask you. But in the main sect, we overspiritualize everything.

Everything was an angel, everything was a d- and everything was the devil ought to get you. If you didn't get a parking spot and you had to go circle to the back of the lot and had to walk further, that's because the devil was getting in your way.

That's, I mean mentally, that's how we were programmed to think. So hearing you say that the devil's out to get me, I'm assuming that you guys had that to some extent as well. It was, I don't think is extreme in a lot of ways, but I remember testify because salt, the backstory.

So I have two kids now. Both of them are, have a lot of food allergies. And that caused their early life and our early parenting to be hellish, literally. It was terrible, but it took us, I know, she'll probably correct me on this, but I think it took us till six or seven months to figure out what our oldest child was allergic to when he was just after born and it would make him just vomit, non-stop.

Like he would fill a cereal bowl in seconds all the time and then just scream because it's all acid. Well, I remember I testified in church that maybe I'm doing something wrong in my life to deserve this punishment, where it's like, oh, actually no, we got him tested.

His body can't digest the thing we're giving him. Okay, so change the diet. Now he's fine. It was like, and then I was thinking about that the other day because it's like, it's so sad.

Here I am telling my congregation that there's something wrong with my life openly and I'm being punished for it in a severe way. You know, like my own child is being tortured basically where it's like, no, his diet is the problem, fix it.

Now he's perfect, nothing wrong with him. It's just now he runs around a lot so trying to keep the fruits away that he can't have is the next challenge. But it's just the mental shaming constantly and then everything is some sort of spiritual battle which led me to not talk about a lot of things that happened to me growing up because it's, I already knew what the answer they were gonna say and that's not what it was.

And that's one of the hard parts about being in a divine healing cult is because there are issues that people have to go through in life health wise that no divine healing cult has been able to take away.

And people, not only what you're describing but people would also try to augment that. So I have family members who have high blood pressure issues, for example, one family member in particular wasn't taking any medication, would refuse the medication.

But instead what they did was altered their diet so they cut out all salt, they cut out all fried foods. then essentially what takes it like cardboard for years and years, they may have eventually had to go on, I can't recall if they did, but what they were doing is they were trying to circumvent using medication by altering their diet and then claiming that they're healed.

Well, if you're having to adjust your diet, you're not healed. You're trying to cripple yourself along and then take that a step further. There are other family members that I had who had chronic diseases, that there is no cure, and although, you know, God could heal them, God did not.

And so they, for the rest of their lives, some of them are no longer living sadly, they thought that they had done something wrong and they kept looking to see, praying to God, what did I do to cause this chronic disease that is just totally wrecking my life?

And it's really sad to think that what the cult did was it robbed people of their happiness. This person, even though they had this chronic disease, they could have been happy, but instead they were just totally distraught because they thought they had done something to earn the disease.

It's a hard struggle. And for people that have struggled with it, it's, you know what I mean? Because I grew up having really severe asthma and it took them a long time, doctors anyway to figure out what the problem was because it, mine started from a traumatic event.

Mom and dad think that it was from being stung by a bunch of ground hornets. And that's what research says is either you're pretty much born with it or you have the gene and the gene needs to be activated at some level of extreme trauma.

Well, being stung in the head by a bunch of ground hornets, they'll get her done, you know, but then it's like, okay, I figured out how to mitigate it. I ran track, cross country, I raised motor cross.

These are all extremely physical things, but exercise and knowing what my triggers were, I guess they kept me going. I never got healed. I still have it. If I get too excited, I'll have an asthma attack.

But it's like, I don't, I never really perceive that as being a bad thing. It was just kind of like, well, this is what I got to deal with. Maybe one day I'll get healed, but then you're supposed to outgrow it too, which I don't know what age that that, but, but then speaking of playing sports, that was the other thing.

I had to wear shorts. I know about the short thing. What's funny is, so my family was real close to the Brandon family. My dad played, you know, as a young child played with Joseph, my uncle with Billy, and not many people know this who were in the call, but the Brandon family did not live by the rules that William...

random preach from behind the pulpit. And so up to a certain age, I was allowed to wear shorts. And except for, I think there was one period of time when my dad got over religious and I was in the basketball team.

I had to wear sweatpants. But there were plenty of other times until a certain age I was allowed to wear shorts. And I have seen photographs of the random family. You know, these things exist, right?

So we did not live by the same rules that everybody else did. However, all of my friends lived by the same rules and there were multiple tiers of rules for sports. We had some of the church that I went to, the women could not play with the men, like volleyball or whatnot, because the women are, I think the word that Deacon used was bouncy, but I'll leave it at that.

You can let your mind wonder what he meant. But there were multiple sets of rules. And some of them included clothing, some of them separation. And it was different from church to church. Yeah, the whole dressing thing.

You know, and then it's all you're doing is especially on the women's side because I grew up with two sisters and a brother. And I guess looking back on it, that's really what it is you're sexualizing the women.

Because now you got them covered up so bad when you go to a mall or something like that. It's, you're starting to trigger some things that are half ways normal. And then in society, you're so nervous because it's like, oh, I'm having all these thoughts and I don't know what to do with all my words.

She's wearing shorts. But I remember, I guess to me it was like, well, you're running.

And it's hot out. I'm not doing, you know, and that was always the thing, well, what's your intent? It's like, I like to run track cross country because I like to run. And we're going a long ways.

And if I could, I probably wouldn't wear anything because air flow, man, I mean, it gets hot, you know? And it's like 90 degree days, three miles. Yeah. But then it was like, okay, well, when the round is done, we were instructed by our coach, put your sweats on.

You got to keep the heat in. Otherwise, you're going to get muscle damage, potentially, you know, so it was like, okay, well, we're done. We put our stuff on. I'm not showing off. Well, then I remember too growing up just through the summer, staying in shape and whatnot.

And we had, I want to say like 500 acres, we could just kind of go wherever we wanted on woods and feel, a lot of it was tillable. But I would run around in that area because it's kind of mimic a lot across country courses.

And my mom said that one of the neighbors that we have, you know, they're in the message as well that, you know, she's kind of worried about you, Gabe. She saw you wearing, running.

wearing shorts. And like, seriously, I'm thinking my mind like, oh, yes, because I want everybody to see these awesome, sweet legs of mine that are so beat up from wiping out under bikes all the time. And it's like, I'm running, mom, I'm not. Oh, it was just, I could never understand it. And, uh, but the thing is too, all the takeaway of that even growing up, I didn't really like wearing shorts. I never really have. I still, if it's really hot out, I'll work in them. But then it's like, well, we always had the actual air to protect

your legs, you know, run through the woods and whatnot. But it's down to the, I guess I wore shorts to May time. So I'm not making it to the bride of Christ. I'll just have to pick a lower rank. You know, that's, it's like real, that's it. It's like the Mormons.

Well, you drink coffee, I guess. Too bad. Well, like I said, you know, the Brandon family were short. There's a photograph of William Brandon wearing shorts. I mean, the Brandon family wore shorts. What's funny is after I left the cult, I was explaining all of the many various rules I was trying to compile. You can go to my website and you type in rules and you can see some of the rules that we had, not not even all of the rules, but a good compiled list. And I was going through that list and I was working with, I was having

launch with another minister and I was explaining to them what, what we had to go through. And he was explaining to me what legalism is. So we're kind of working together a little bit.

And when we got to the shorts, he just started laughing. What's wrong with you, man? And he says, do you know what the Bible means? Whenever it says, gird up your loins. No, I've never thought about that. And you talking about airflow made me think of it again, but gird up your loins. Take your robes and tie your robes up so that your legs are bearing, your legs are showing. And you have airflow. So whenever they say, gird up your loins, they were essentially talking about the men were getting ready to run to, you know,

in haste to some city or whatever. And they would open up the air, air to the legs and not the airflow. Yeah. But then it's like, who really cares? You know, it's because I'm sure right now what I'm wearing probably has some symbol or something on it that could be demonic. Or, you know, and at all it is, it's a nice sweatshirt. I mean, it's land of 10,000 ice rinks. It's a hockey thing. But somehow, I don't move away, you know, don't watch the black spirit in the window here. Yeah, I don't know because it was just like,

I think about it all the time, you know, and then people would ask me, like, okay, how can we don't wear shorts? You know, and school and stuff. And I just, I don't really like them.

So I just, I just wear jeans. But then it's like in the back of my head. It's like, why can't I really tell him that? Well, my church says, then they then they start questioning stuff and I don't want to deal with that.

Well, then it's like, okay, well, right there, Gabe, you realize you're in a cult, but you won't admit it because you're like, this kind of venture off to the right here, like I'm sitting in the corner too, because that'd be mine.

I don't, I'd be like you that way too. I'd sit in that corner at big social events. I don't typically like people too much, but then you get me going and I can't shut up, so that's still a problem.

I guess I'm the same way too. I have a lot to say, but I usually keep it to myself. I usually like to think about it and like to process it before it comes out.

Abe Lincoln said, my favorite quote is, it's better to be looked at and thought of as dumb than to speak and remove all doubt. And I'm of that mindset. I like to think about what I say.

So doing this is a little bit awkward for me, but back to the way that the cult structure is, I think that if more people had have listened to Abe Lincoln in the movement, and all of these ministers weren't trying to create this great showmanship act and actually just stopped and thought about what they said, we'd never end up in this mess that we have.

Go by what I mean, not what I say. It was always that it was like, well, I know, but you said salvation, you can get there three different ways. So what which one is it there?

Because I, yeah, that one was interesting. But that's probably a spiritual mind game too, like Charles was saying, the fan is in the hand, which makes zero sense to me. It's like, well, if people are going to do it, they're going to do it if they don't, they don't.

Well, when you're talking through your butt, the whole sermon, you need a fan in your hand. I mean, it's just the things that the man said. It's just, it's unbelievable, but thankfully you got out and I'm glad that you found the courage to tell your wife that, hey, I'm gonna call, I can't imagine what must have been going through your head when that happened, what was going through your head.

So I'd like to go back to the fact that my mom and dad, thankfully, raised us to be open-minded. And not just take things willy-nilly. Well, just because he said that, you need to go check it.

Just because some scientist gets on TV and says, X, you should go check it. Don't just believe it to believe it. But then I feel like we all kind of follow into that somehow and it just ends up that way.

But that was my thing was like, well, these are some pretty steep claims, dude. Like, wow, how dare you come across the prophet? You know, but then it was just kind of like, I sat there for a little bit, you know, I was at work, just kind of like, hmm.

Well, this is interesting. So actually what I did, is I went back to the other side of people defending him. Because now, once you're exposed to it, you're done. There's no going back. You know the truth per se.

So then it's like, OK, well, what are people saying to defend these points?

Well, they weren't making much sense, in my opinion. So then it's like, OK, well, you said x. This person says why? But then they end their quote of, well, they're not righteous so they're not going to believe it anyway.

Well, it's like, OK, well, right there, you just created a duality. Sorry, you're wrong, then. So I guess Mr. Collins wins the debate. But then it's like, then you go, OK, well, let's go really deep because that's typically what I do and some of the stuff.

And it's like, oh, I don't know. And then you get involved in the KKK stuff. And then there's pictures of them standing with the people. And it's like, well, I don't know how much more obviously you want to get, you know, because it's like, well, sorry, I'm not, you know, a nice thing.

Is it's like, you're not trying to, I guess, how I feel. You're not trying to be like waving your fists in the air. See, the whole time we're all lied to is like, well, here's the fact, leave it or take it.

This is what I think now. And I feel like a lot of people either need to get, just don't take it in the wrong way, knocked in the head. So they look at it correctly.

Or it's just, well, I mean, if you're happy where you're at, you're happy where you're at. And, ah, I don't know, it's a mess. You know, I don't know that I would use the term knocked in the head, but I get what you mean.

You almost, there needs to be a good slap of sense that somehow gets into people. But, you know, it's such a difficult thing because on the one hand, they're in a prison that they don't know they're in.

They're in this mental prison from this cult. And there's no way to really get them unless you really shake them. And interestingly, everything that I do was never really intended to help people out of the cult.

I have partners in different websites and podcasts that do that. Mine was more putting up a marker in the water that says, there's danger in this water, do not swim. That kind of thing.

And to fully document the history that they have tried to erase, I've been trying to push that up. But, so after everything that you've gone through, what advice would you give to people who are still struggling in this cult and still, we have people who are listening to the podcast who are actually in the cult.

What would you say to them to give them some advice? Well, yeah. I know that there's people listening to it that are in the cult, because I argued with one on why you think you both said it wasn't.

I mean, I don't know what his thoughts are now, but it. I guess I was trying not to be too rude, but look at the other side. It's not as bad as you think.

I'm not here to convert anybody. I'm not here to tell you which way you should go, which door you should open, but I think you should consider all routes and make your decision there.

If you're happy where you're at, that's perfectly fine. Nothing, nothing taken, just you need to actually really look and figure out what you actually believe. Very good advice. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story.

Thank you. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. And if you want to share your story, you can contact us at William-Branum.org.

For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.