Manifested Deception: Unmasking Dominionism’s Sinister Agenda

Hello and welcome to another episode, have the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Sisti, former members of IHOP KC. Kevin, Barbara, it's good to be back and to talk about all things IHOP and I get a little bit excited you were talking about manifested sons of God and mentioned the name Branham and some of the weird connections that I have to all of this mess and I'm I'm excited to get

into that and learn more people back that covers deeper on what was being taught at IHOP KC. So I'm very glad to have you back. Thank you so much for coming back. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, John. Yeah, I think what prompted me to actually reach out to you in the first place was the Bethel Communion Revival and I believe you had Adam on there and he was referring to the the confrontation that happened at IHOP on a Friday night with Dean Briggs basically saying confronting them on the fact that they were trying to diminish

Michael's involvement and whatever. So he had mentioned that and it reminded us of many conversations that we've had with Dean reminded us of the whole IHOP debacle and we wanted to we wanted to kind of bring out some information that maybe people don't know all for the sake of warning the sheep. As you said all things IHOP really interesting thing about IHOP it I have found out through the last couple years of study and looking at it that really the heart of the teaching was dominionist in nature wrapped in kind of a pre-millennial blanket so to

speak and I don't think people realize that. So one of the interesting things and why we wanted to bring up Dean Briggs is that he was in that environment of a pre-millennial environment. We thought that that was his view and so we were praying for him we were a part of his his ministry so to speak.

and And yet we didn't realize the dominionist roots of what he really believed in what he really wanted to teach, but felt like he couldn't teach at all. Yeah. It was interesting to, as we kind of studied more, so I grew up, Missouri, Senate, Lutheran.

So this is very far, and working in ministry world, in the mission world overseas, and nationally for about 22 years about,

I've worked with a lot of different denominations and dominion theology has not been something that I actually understood. I had heard seven mountain mandate, I had heard about all that from people praying for a canopies of prayer, good friends of mine, that I didn't understand the connection and I really hadn't, frankly, done due diligence to understand what the dominion theology actually was.

And to me, initially, it was like, well, why wouldn't we pray for every sphere of society and that people who are in those spheres would, you know, talk about the gospel, tell people about Jesus, whether you're at the hospital or, you know, your CEO or your stay at home mom, you should be talking about Jesus wherever you are in the gospel.

So to me, that made a perfect sense and that was the frame that I had heard. But interestingly, in the last several years, certainly since everything has happened at IHOP, the question that I have been finding that I've been telling Kevin that we've been asking more, that I never thought I would need to ask people that I've run hard with after the Lord I thought in ministry for 20 plus years is, what do you actually believe?

What do you actually believe? Who is Jesus to you? And who are you in reference to him? And I think, I think Kevin has been more understanding of the situation than I, I think I was much more naive about blatant deception, intentionally deceiving people.

I just thought it was an issue of not being a clear communicator than that I needed to re-engage the conversation and maybe be more specific. And so that's kind of where we found ourselves with Dean.

Dean's been a good friend and colleague for several years. And mostly in a ministry context,

but certainly I read his Ecclesioreizing book and I really liked it. And we talked about Dominion with him and he was assuring everyone, including colleague, friends of ours that we recommended the book to.

It wasn't about Dominion at all, that that was... doesn't, you know, and even Kevin read it like looking for the dominion overtones, which, you know, and he's like, you know, it's just, you know, but I think that's when I was first understanding the duality of conversations, you know, Kevin keeps saying, we're having two conversations.

And I'd be like, what do you mean? He's like, we're saying this word. And they're saying this word, our definition is completely different than their definition. And I was like, no, and that is, in fact, what has proven to be true.

Absolutely. In fact, I've had this conversation a few times on podcasts that have recorded before this. I think they will come out maybe before, maybe after this. People are going to get tired of me hearing me say this, but when I was growing up, I did not know that I was supposed to be this arrogant person.

I had no clue. I was supposed to be arrogant because it's not in my nature to be that way. And I actually read my Bible. So whenever Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world, I took that to mean what he said.

He said, it's not of this world. And for me, it was a defining profound statement because no matter what happens to you, it doesn't matter. Your kingdom's not of this world. If somebody is misusing you, mistreating you, well, there, their eyes are focused on this world, this kingdom, my eyes are focused on a different kingdom.

That was how my life, that's how I operated my life. And most of my life has been that way. That was how I was defined. What's really interesting is the sermons of William Brannum that I grew up on, we listened to him over and over and over and over and over.

Up to a certain year, he kind of taught that way. He, you know, it was mixed with a lot of cult theology that was horrific. But when he talked about the kingdom, he did put it into a different place.

It wasn't dominion here. What's really, really interesting is whenever the civil rights battle got heated and all of the civil rights, the anti-civil rights leaders were rising up in opposition, fighting the governments, et cetera, that's when it seemed to shift.

And he started saying things like, we need another Elijah to rise up against Ahab. And he was, what he was doing was he would take biblical figures, the bad guys. And he would label politicians as the bad guy at this big biblical figure.

And like you said, two conversations. When I was a kid, I didn't realize he was doing this. And so when he was talking about Ahab and Elijah, I was thinking literally Ahab and Elijah.

And he was talking about Kennedy. And when he was talking about Ahab and Jezebel, he was talking about Jacqueline and JFK. So I didn't realize that I was supposed to put those two and two together because had I did, my logical brain would have thought, well, wait a minute, JFK is dead.

What does this even mean? matter to me, why am I listening to it? Right. And I went back in time and I wanted to know what is the roots of this. When I was writing my latest book, I wanted to know why it turned into dominionism.

Was it because of William Brannum or something else? And what I learned was, before Brannum even was a, he was a minister, but before it was a name, before it turned into a big, laterane movement, there was what was called the Supreme Kingdom.

They were just like today. They were trying to oust everybody who did not believe their political views. They were putting many things into the spiritual realm that should have remained into the physical. And they were manipulating heads to believe that if you wanted to stand up to be a Christian, you need to align with these political policies.

That was the Supreme Kingdom. And it was created by leaders of the clan who had been ousted from the clan. Some of them for severely horrific things, immoral things that they were doing. So this movement was created.

Brannum was touring with the leaders of this movement and it was short lived, it dissolved. But what happened was it was carried forward almost underground and resurrected again in the 60s. What's really, really scary is that I'm watching this history repeat itself now three times.

It's resurrecting again in the NAR. Absolutely, John. I think the first time that I reached out to you before we did our first podcast, I had asked some questions about reconstructionism because it seems like somewhere along the line, the reconstruction as Rush Duney at North and those guys kind of combined with the kingdom message of the 80s, how that actually occurred and all that is another story.

But really the reconstructionist, I started to go back and look at where that came from and what you were saying was a good point, but it goes back even further, it goes back into the Reformation, it goes back into Calvin and the system that he was setting up in Geneva and basically built on biblical law.

It goes back to Constantine where the Catholic Church was eventually formed out of and basically marrying the church to the state. And so yeah, I think it's been done so many times and now as we look at that, if we look back at history and just go, okay, we've tried this before and we've ended up with inquisition, we've ended up with crusades, we've been killing each other in the name of Jesus.

This is all going to play out again if we're not careful and so that's pretty scary. So once again, getting back to how we... We started, we're seeing this movement, we're seeing the threads of this movement.

And IHOP was kind of an explosion that happened for us. We backed off, everybody dug in, it seemed, and kept on going with ministry. And we were asking, okay, Lord, how did this happen?

And he revealed to us this bigger issue that is across the world right now. And that is the threads of the NAR, the threads of dominion theology. And it all kind of just showed its tentacles and its true reality in unfortunately our friend Dean as we started talking to him more and more and more and more had been exposed.

We asked more and more questions. And as we were asking the questions meeting after meeting, maybe about six meetings, we finally got to a last meeting. Well, I think that was the initial, it was questioning of, okay, are we understanding?

Because I thought you met this and then the fruit looks like this and I was concerned,

I've been concerned for many, many years in different streams. I've had conversations in the disciple making movement streams about multiplication. I've had issues at Saddleback Church, different places where I'm seeing some things that now all of a sudden I feel like it's like, oh, wait, there's, they're all tied together.

It's called something different, but there's a thread of, it's like a big spider web. And some are way more full of web than others, but even the denominations, the Presbyterian, the specific denominations because of the language and because of this need to be relevant, which is not difficult, and emergent and the new, the postmodern era we find ourselves in, the seeker friendly, going door to door to ask people in the community what they want and then starting a church based off that.

That's a famous thing Rick Warren says all the time from the pulpit of, okay, so, why are we asking people who don't know Jesus, what they want and then do it, that's not, that's not the gospel, that's not the gospel.

And I think it, it seems very American to me. You know, it's very consumer driven. It's very about PR and strategy. And I think that's the reality that I'm coming to is I've been having conversations for years across different streams and maybe I'm slow.

I think maybe that's part of it, but I just, I took things at face value and I believe that the Bible is true and I believe it's an errant and I believe it's literal and I thought my colleagues did too and so I think when we sat down with Dean initially, I just thought it was a giant miscommunication misunderstanding which we had multiple meetings, sometimes his wife was with us, sometimes there's just three of us, but it was always the two of us and I think where I finally, you know, we were on the way to a meeting in Colorado Springs and this is in Kevin and his kindness turned

to me and goes, bye, I just want you to be ready for the fact that you think we just have to explain it better and he's going to hear it and go, oh my goodness, I understand what the disconnect is, here, here it is, here's what I want to say to you is he's intentionally doing this and this isn't about you communicating better, this is about he has a different agenda and we had had a meeting in outside of Kansas City where Kevin was very concerned about he was starting a new venture and he had really militant images and words on his PR stuff

for this new embassly Ecclesia, he called it and so we met them and him and his wife and and with the question of why the militant language, like kind of confusing, we don't understand and this is where I kind of started to get the glimpse of, wait, I think this is something else is he he was very specific about well, you know, there's three big motivators for people who we find that most people are stuck on high center, I said okay and he said and there's three motivators for getting people off and so I use that language intentionally

and I said okay and he said fear, anger and sadness are the three best motivators of people to get them stuck off of high center so I'm intentionally using provocative language to move people off of high center and I said that's sounds like manipulation to me, that is manipulation and Jesus doesn't manipulate people, Jesus doesn't manipulate people, people come freely or they don't come and that's up to between them and God but we're not supposed to manipulate people and so then he kind of went into these things and I finally said in that conversation which I was getting really concerned and elevating for sure and I said

you know it sounds like you're talking about Christianizing everything and that again isn't Jesus, it's about Jesus being chosen I said here's what I'm not okay with and what I will I will not be part of what you're describing which sounds like Christian jihad to me.

I'm not okay with that. That is not okay. Just like any kind of jihad is not okay to me. But especially with Jesus Christ because we are able to choose him. And it is him that builds his church. He's the one that saves us. He's the one that chooses like it's him.

Anything good in me is Jesus Christ. So from there and unraveled. The quote reminded me of the wise words, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate leads to suffering, which is the wise words of Yoda, which is probably not relevant to this conversation.

But there's so much that you said to unpack both of you. So agenda. For me, that's really the big thing here because what I have come to understand and learn through all of this research is that there was always an agenda. It wasn't that there was this agenda that suddenly appeared. For example, people in mainstream Christianity and the news suddenly are shocked that this movement is trying to create a theocracy. They're shocked. But if you trace the trace it back to its roots, John Alexander Dowey, who is the prototype for all of this, started the Theocratic party and tried to take over Washington, DC. That

was the initial goal of the movement. And he was deeply involved in many of the core doctrines that evolved into eventually what became Iop KC, but fundamentally to the latirane movement. So this notion that we need to rise up as Jules army. We need to take over the government.

All of this was nothing new in this the Theocratic party. I want to say it was 19 was in 1906, I think somewhere around there. So this has been going on for hundreds of years, right? And so that movement existed, but you also mentioned reconstructionism, which is interesting because those two things are so similarly, similarly related and not many people know how deep it ties to the NAR. Whenever C Peter Wagner, I think it was in 2008, he published his book, Dominion, how kingdom action can change the world. He traced his intellectual theory of his dominion theology right straight to Rush Duney. And he said,

he had Rush Duney to thank for this. He was indebted to Rush Duney. I can't remember his exact words, but Rush Duney essentially was painting the picture of what Dominion would look like. And many of the people who were the backbone to this movement also came from Latter-Rain and Latter-Rain descended from Dauy and Dauy had the Theocratic party.

So you've got multiple streams of this theocracy notion coming in, all of which are in defiance of Jesus' words, my kingdom is not of this world. So this was an entire movement that their agenda was to create a theocracy.

See, and yet it's defying Jesus, but here's where it gets really problem. The agenda is never published. So when people come in, like you said, you're talking to a minister or you're listening to a sermon, he's saying one thing and you're hearing another, it doesn't really click until you understand that underneath every single statement that the man makes is this agenda, and that agenda is not a biblical agenda.

That's where it gets problematic. Absolutely. It's so interesting because I've had, after we had our final meeting and we'll go into the final meeting and what was actually said, but after we had that, I've been having conversations, so to speak, or confrontations with Dean Brakes on his Facebook and until he blocked you.

Yeah, until he blocked me this last time, but at any rate, my concern was in this last meeting.

He had mentioned, and again, I think we'll wait to get into that, but he had mentioned that he was, that he believed in manifestant sons of God, and we just immediately were just appalled by it, but I've been confronting him, and as I've been confronting him on this, he's doing exactly what you're saying, and that is he doesn't, he pushes back and said, I never said anything about William Brannum or manifestant sons of God, but yet he's still teaching everything.

He's still throwing it out there for everyone to chew on, but he's denying the fact maybe because so many people realize that the latter reign and William Brannum is an aberrant movement, and he doesn't have to be associated with it, right? He's a strategist, that's his son.

But, but all that said, I'm agreeing with you, and then I wanted to as well go back to the final meeting that we had with Dean Brakes in Colorado Springs. Just happened, we all happen to be there at the same time. I texted them in the morning. I said, we want to talk to you. He said, great, I'm here on the stop by. I think it was four o'clock in the afternoon. He was staying at the Broadmore Hotel. He was fasting with Luangal together. They were fasting for the million women march on Washington, DC, which was going to happen in about two weeks, which is a whole other story.

But with that, I'll let I will let the barbe. Yeah, that's a whole other probably hour. A conversation at least. We want to talk about misogyny in the church. But he's women for political gain. That's not new. But, yeah, I think one of the things that is critical.

Didn't matter as a friend, but matters as a, as a, as a peer in a colleague in a, in a sister in Christ is the fact that Dean is a brilliant strategist. And he was in charge of strategy and PR at IHOP KC the whole time he was there. Dean is a brilliant, brilliant person. I was really wanting to work with Dean for years before I got to know him because he is incredibly smart. And very intentional, which I didn't see very a lot of in a lot of places I was. And so it was really great. And I think that's the, that's the reason this

is such a hard thing. This isn't just like, oh, we want to call somebody out. And there's so much of that going on that needs to be done. But there's so much I think of it being done in ways that are not honoring to the Lord. And I want truth and love. And we love Dean and Jeannie. We do. We, we have, we've prayed for them for a long time. I've edited some of his books like I know the man, well, he, he gave a commissioning prayer at the end of our wedding. That's how well we know Dean bricks. And so I, I hope that it's more of being

deceived and deceiving others as the scripture talks about. That's still horrific, but it's, it's easier to swallow. But the, the more I look at and pray through things and look at scripture and look at quotes and line hold up my Bible and hold up the words being spoken, they're such a disconnect that I can't put my head in the sand. I just was writing about in Ephesians that, you know, do not be part to participate in and fruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them. And so we did Matthew 18. This was our attempt with dear friends to go and say, hey,

hey, is this what you're saying? Because this is what this sounds like. And, and we love you. And this is not biblical. So we want to, as a leader and a speaker and a, I don't know what he calls himself, but he definitely teaches from the platform. This is, this is scary. So when we were in Colorado Springs, there had been some evasion because after the conversation when I said there's no manipulation in Jesus, there was, I wrote a big email to Dean after that. And in his email response, he, he indicated and he was right, hey, I, I'm no different. I've always been the same

way I've always believed. I'm not believing anything that I've ever, and he is right. He, he is right. The problem is we, we define things differently. I find somebody praying for the, in the mission world, and I've been to 18 countries and done a lot of work with major leaders around the world. When you tell me that you want to be a member on mission and you want to bring Jesus where, you are. I, yeah, that's in my Bible. I believe all of that. I think that's right. But it's the Jesus of the gospel. It's not an elite chosen group of people who call themselves

apostles and prophets and who are, get this super secret information. And they're not, no one's building Jesus' kingdom here on earth. It's interesting to me. I've been in Ephesians and I told him that it says in the passage in Ephesians 5, so he is going to sanctify and her having cleansed her by the washing of the water of his word, the he being Jesus he's talking about his church, that he might present to himself the church in all her glory.

So I guess I'm confused why people think that we're going to take over the mountains, the seven mountains, and then we're going to give Jesus the keys to his own kingdom. When his kingdom is one, not of the world, and two, Jesus is going to present to himself the church. It says nothing about society. It says nothing about world. Jesus didn't change the leaders. He called out the religious ones because they were lying and misrepresenting him, but he never, he didn't take on Caesar. He didn't take on a bunch of pilot. And so I look at my Bible and I'm really confused. And so we were in Colorado Springs and we're

again, this is right before Kevin's like, bar, this is going to go differently than you think. He was right. God help you. I was so upset. But take it. Yeah, you care because I was a mess. So so yeah, barb was a mess. And we're sitting down with Dean as he's fasting at any rate of keeping medicine at the broad more, whatever, medicine outside. We sat at a table and I just said, listen, you know, there's actually the conversation started out with Dean saying, oh yeah, saying listen guys, I know you have some concerns over some

of the stuff that I'm saying or teaching or whatever. But I think we have more things in common than what we actually imagine. We're probably going to come out here on the same page. And I was like, okay, so we just started talking about some of our concerns about militancy and why taking over spheres and why pushing back the blue and prayer strikes and all these things that he's talking about. And so eventually barb chines and just says, you know, Dean, we're kind of, you know, I look at myself like an ant compared to God, just as an ant, you know, I mean, he could just step all me if he wants to. But

when I, you know, it's the God of the universe that we're talking about. Well, and that's what there's a little sugar in on the ground. And I said, I look at the ant and if I'm God, and the ant is me.

What could that ant possibly do to help me? Like what, what could he possibly give to me that I couldn't do? He's an ant. And then what do you say? And Dean's response, which Kevin picked up on, I didn't understand it.

He goes, well, I really love this analogy and I might use it because you know, sometimes an ant is more than an ant. And so Kevin would, And I'm not going to say it.

Wait a second. Wait a minute, wait a minute. What, what does that mean? Because this is what we're having to do nowadays with any of our conversations. His words don't mean the same to us as they mean to other people.

We actually have to define those words as we're going along. So I said to Dean, I was like, what does that mean? He's like, boy, you know, it's like sons. It's like sonship. Yeah, he started grabbing the ants.

And then I said, manifested. And he did, he fell back in his chair and goes, yeah, the whole thing, the whole William Brannum manifested sons of God, souped enough. I'm souped enough. And he has really, I like, I remember this whole countenance change and it was just this silent moment of like, oh my gosh, wait.

What? So though we were saying this in a humorous way or a doubt, we're just, we were appalled by this. So by the end of the conversation to kind of wrap it up, we, I just said, listen, Dean, when we, you had talked in the beginning about having more in common by the time we were done, I just want to say clearly to you right now, we do not, we do not, was at that point that he said, I think we need an exit strategy.

And he said, I, I don't want any more emails from you guys. I don't want you praying for me or my ministry. Yeah, you can, please don't. Please don't pray for my ministry. And we, we basically parted ways at that point, except for the, the ongoing Facebook discussions that I've had with him.

And as your wife, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take a little offense right now because I, he continued, to, to post and continues to this day. These alarming pictorials that are straw man arguments and basically he's got this idea that we're in this new era.

And the old era was the church and the new era is Ecclesia and he's shaking this to this place. But one of the ones that, that Kevin saw that he found particularly appalling and unbiblical and heretical, we'll go there, was he, it was this Christ spirit in Jesus.

No, it was a, it was a, yeah. A picture of, it just said, it had a door or a window. So in the middle of picture a computer screen, on the left hand side it said Christ in Jesus and then the doorway to the new era Christ in us.

And I kept pushing back on him saying, what does Christ in Jesus mean? Are you saying basically what I've been saying that you've been saying that this is manifest in the sons of God and so on and so forth and that's what he was pushing back on, but little by little increment by increment, he keeps throwing things out and he does it in this way.

He says, some people think that this may be true. What do you think? And then a few posts down the line, it becomes actually a truth. And anybody that studies psychology for five minutes knows if you say a lie three times people buy it, even if they know it's a lie when it starts.

And I think the conversation, the thing that makes me very angry is the intentional deception. If Satan is the father of lies, anytime we're lying, we are aligning ourselves not with Jesus. And the Bible is very clear and what concerned me about, he wrote a blurb that was just as appalling as the picture and then Kevin called them out on it as a brother in kindness and love.

And Dean's response was to call Kevin a liar about what happened with the William Brannum suits and that's comment. And then, you know, doing that, well, I thought we were friends, this might be what, you know, it was just so gamey and so duplicitous and to lie about what he said.

And then to call Kevin a liar. And then he eventually blocked him and took everything down to delete it at all. Because I was asking him to simply come out and say it, what you told us, tell everybody and he won't do it.

Well, and that's what we said at the end is if he's, if he, if this is biblical and what he's saying is, you know, because he says he's a voracious reader of scripture and he loves the Bible.

If this is true, then why is he just not telling people? Why is he not calling it dominion? Why is, if it's right and it's biblical, okay, then say it. Tell people what you believe, call it what you call it.

That's, I don't understand why if it's, if it's of the Lord, I don't get it. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery. John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. So I thank for the sake of people who are listening who aren't familiar with manifested sons of God. We've used this term a few times. We need to

probably explain what this weird mess is. And then on the flip side, for people who are indoctrinated with this and does not realize that it's anti-biblical, we should probably explain that a bit too.

But there was this notion that was, it was a direct relation to the Christian identity doctrine. This spawned off of the mixture of fundamentalist religion and Christian identity. They were birthed Joel's army. They were taking on the identity of the, they believe that the British Isles and the United States were the descendants of the lost 10 tribes of Israel.

Therefore, we are the Christians. This is our identity. And we are the manifested sons of God. What does this mean? They were taking any passage that talks about what Jesus will do when he returns. They would apply this to the people. So they were making gods out of the people.

And anytime that the minister says Christ in you, if you are a non-programmed Christian who attended a normal church and understood the gospel and has read the Bible, this just simply means what Jesus said. I will be with you even in you. I will send the Holy Spirit. He will lead you and guide you to all truth. It's more of a leading and you are a follower type relationship.

But under manifested sons of God, it wasn't that way. They taught that this entity came down and embodied Jesus and it was divine. And that entity would come again and that entity would embody itself in the humans at the end of the world. And there would be this great race war.

That was literally the doctrine. And even the people who teach this doctrine, they take away, like you'll never hear one of these guys say race war. Never. They will take it out. But that's what it was. That's what they were teaching. And so if you are a normal Christian, you hear a say manifested sons of God, keep in mind that we're literally talking about a belief from a person who's claiming to be Christian minister, saying that you will become gods. You will become Jesus's.

And you will rise up and you will fight. That's the doctrine. On the flip side, if you're indoctrinated in this, you have to understand that there is nothing in the Bible that describes what I just said.

You can only do this if you take single passages and take them entirely out of their context and try to build your own context by scattering a few random verses that are literally talking about the deity of God. But they have taken them out of context and they're saying that if you read this and don't read the rest of the Bible mind you, but just read this one passage, you too can become a God.

Well, that's where it gets dangerous for the ones that have the super knowledge and they're the apostles and prophets, they misuse any authority that they have. And I think that's what's so dangerous and scary to me, this duplicitous nature.

And watching in the town I grew up in, Andrew Womack is doing this and they're massing things and they're openly talking about this civil war that's coming. And it's the simultaneous stoking this fire about hating certain politicians or loving others and making it about this, we're being persecuted as Christians and the reality is anybody who's been to any of the countries where Christians are actually being persecuted for their faith in Jesus not because they are obnoxious, unkind, mean-spirited people.

That's a whole different ballgame and it's appalling to me when I've seen the suffering in other countries where Christians are being mutilated and killed for their faith in Jesus to say that anything like that is happening here in that context on that level is just, just profoundly wrong and untrue and to stoke the hatred and the anger and people's hearts that are supposedly lovers of Christ when we're called to love God and love others.

There's nothing about Jesus, Jesus who came to serve, he came to die and he was made perfect through suffering. I don't understand why I need a lear jet if Jesus had no place to lay his head. There's so many things that are just not okay and not biblical.

I think one of the things that concerns me, especially about the situation with Dean and this is one of, I think, my main points, as we are, as Barbara and I go out into mission circles and we've, like Barbara said, we've been involved with these, with DMM and finishing the task and GAZX and some of the other ones. As we go out, we are sitting there and we're saying we want to unify as a body, as a group to bring the great commission to the world, what is the great commission?

What is it? When you have one person sitting there that might think that the great commission is the New Testament interpretation of the cultural mandate or the Dominion mandate, another person is saying, let's just bring Jesus. But we're holding hands together and it seems like a big mix and a big mess. If we have people believing in manifest sons of God or Dominion or perfection or any of these things and yet we're trying to unify as a church for the great commission to be fulfilled by a certain day, where is the gospel and what is the gospel? And that's not John 17 Unity anyway, which is what people are promoting

because it's about the truth and sanctifying people in truth. It's being unified around the truth of the gospel, the truth of the Bible and its entirety from Genesis to Revelation, not just chosen passages. I think that's been the confusing conversations that I'm no longer confused by, I think God, but the decrees and the declarations and the strategic warfare prayer.

I don't see these things in my Bible. I don't understand why prayer is talking to Jesus about my friends and about the state of the world and it's a conversation built on intimacy.

I'm not supposed to be standing on a street corner letting you hear my prayer seeing how great I am and how many words I can say. But so I'm watching that there's these super special prayer people and it's it's just it's not a thing and it's it's scary when that you know we asked Dean we're like we're I don't understand this declarations strategic targeted warfare prayer and he's like oh it's in the Bible I'm like well where? Oh what a Daniel did it and I'm like here's here's the deal. Daniel was praying to his God. He was a captive

and by the way for those that are confused Esther Daniel and Joseph did not intentionally put themselves in government positions so that from the inside out they could undermine the truth and be a super covert operative for Jesus. That's not biblical either. The bait and switch thing is not Jesus that's people and so when I hear that that's what Daniel was doing he wasn't declaring anything he was praying to the God that he loved he was asking him to help and asking for forgiveness when he was presuming things that he was not to be presuming and I think we would all do well

forgot on our faces and ask for forgiveness not because America needs to rise up and take her place but because Jesus is the king and we are not. Absolutely. There was a statement that you made in there I want to expand on just a little bit because not many people realize this connection and it is profound.

You're talking about the great commission and from your perspective, when you hear great commission, you're thinking the biblical version and whenever they're talking, it's two conversations like you guys have been saying. Yes. Well, take that to a much, much deeper level because I don't think many people realize what actually has happened here.

Many of these leaders, they call these guys Gods Generals and they're pointing to this movement that existed in the 40s, 50s and 60s and they're naming precursors to that movement as the line of Gods Generals that lead to this.

So John G. Lake, for example, one of the biggest con artists and scan, he was a scam artist, he was a just scoundrel, I'll just use that word. This guy was not a good guy, but he spread what they called the gospel overseas and he was one of the precursors to the laterane movement.

He laid the fertile ground so this thing would grow over there and then the laterane movement and all of the worldwide revival movement, all of this spread around the globe. People who were in that mindset that this is the manifestation of the sons of God, this is the end of days, all of that theology that's wrapped into that, they believed that it was the fulfillment of the Great Commission, go make disciples of all lands, so this happened.

And so every single person who's in today's apostle NAR role looks back to this event as the fulfillment of the Great Commission, so the manifestation of the sons of God can take place. And now we're past that, now we need to go take authority in dominion.

And so when they say Great Commission, it has this loaded language that means nothing like you expect it to mean. That's right. Right. Well, that's the kingdom now thing too, that we've been hearing where in all these, all these different missions organizations and denominations are coming together.

So you know, my dear friend, and I know he talks about, and she asks this question, it's kind of crass, but she always asks, so there's just a little bit of poop in the brownies.

Would you still eat those brownies? So that's the question. I told Kevin, I said, there's more poop than brownie right now, and people don't even realize that they just got used to eating poop, and they forgot what brownie tastes like.

And well, unfortunately, people are not in the word, and they are not, and we hear that all the time, right? We've got to get back to the word. But we really, you have to study the word, you have to understand it to know what's happening out there.

And it's like we're just saying the whole idea of the Great Commission now, and we see all the movement out there. You see groups like empowered 21 or FTT that want to get the Great Commission fulfilled by a certain year, and there's an urgency of that.

But what... is the great commission to them. A lot of them believe that it's just a reinterpretation of the of the cultural mandate from from Genesis, the so-called cultural mandate, which is Christianized the world, it brings seven mountains and but who we we need to preach Jesus. We need to preach the gospel. That's what needs to go out. It's inner transformation of the heart that's going to change somebody, not community transformation. I'm sorry. That's the first for everything else from there can happen because the heart's been changed.

Okay. And community transformation, it is, you know, it's that CS Lewis quote you say all the time that if you put the first things first. Yeah. If you if you if you put first things first, you get second things thrown in. If you put second things first, you lose both first and second things. And that's what I think we're doing. I think we're losing the baby with the bathwater. We're losing it all because we're choosing seven mountains.

We're choosing dominion. We're we're not of this world or citizens of heaven. We're choosing all these secondary issues to concentrate on when Jesus is saying I came, I died for people for individuals to come and and to and to have forgiveness and to have a change card and to change life. That's what we want to see. So with all his mess, that's that's the one thing that we want to elevate today and in all of this is to say Jesus, one look at Jesus, look at the word read the Bible. It's in there. Read the Bible and and you know,

it's it's everywhere. And read it in context backwards and like know it. And you know, Jesus is is imploring his disciples who know him and who've walked with him. Hey, you know, it's like, I think it's 12 times in Matthew 24, stale or pay attention. Keep be ready, watch stay. And it's like, we're here. Like we we are in a place where deception is happening and and things are shifting rapidly. And whatever whenever Jesus comes, that's not mine. But there's a there's a readiness being a student of his word and sitting at his feet and not from

a I'm going to take over and you know, run things and it doesn't really matter if I know Jesus or not. I mean, that's the thing that I've been horrified about even the domain thing is like, it's like, no, it's a person that's at the top of the mountain. We don't really like see Peter Wagner's books are kind of appalling because it's like not kind of they're appalling. But it's because this idea of, you know, it doesn't really matter if they love love Jesus or if they have good character or anything. It's just about their the head of the medium mountain and the head of the,

you know, and we need to just stop this this idea of of, you know, making, I used to drive me notes that I helped KCA. This is just a personal. But when people are like, we need to be esters or we need to be David's or I'm like, no, I need to be Barb. God made me and I need to, whatever that means. And I'm glad for David and I'm really excited about Esther. But I'm not supposed to be an Anna. I'm supposed to be a Barbara. And so that's this thing of just like, we have to be that or or or making

people like you talked about earlier with, you know, JFK and like that idea of recasting people, you know, when we saw Dean last, he, he said, you know, I said, oh, well, what are you doing here? Because I grew up outside of Colorado Springs. So I'm pretty familiar with the area. I think he said, oh, well, we're, you know, probably aren't going to like why I'm here. And I said, well, that sounds interesting. And he said, well, we're getting ready to do the, you know, million women march in Washington, DC. And it was like three

weeks before the election. And I said, well, that's, that seems really timely. I said, so it's like a pre-election rally. And he goes, no, no, no, it's, but the tagline was so appalling. I said, okay, so how many women are actually going to be at this like on the platform?

Well, Louis and Cheyenne. And I said, so it is a rally. And he goes, well, we can't, I go, Cheyenne is clearly stumping for Trump. Like again, I don't, it's not about politics. But if we're supposed to be people of the kingdom, it's, it's not about left or right or democratic or it's not about that. It's, it's, we're not of this world or just not.

But, but you're going to gather women and make them feel like they're not good mothers and sisters and daughters if they're not in Washington, fervently praying. And there's a spirit of Ishtar and I get confused. I get confused, wouldn't I think that's a, that's a whole other podcast. I think people have done those already, but I just think that instead of focusing on Jesus in the Bible and learning the Bible and knowing what Jesus says and what God, the Father, is like in, and how we can see the fruit of the spirit and how we know what the fruit of the

spirit is. We're focusing on, you know, building altars to Ishtar so we can be, you know, hit them with sledgehammers. I don't, I don't understand what that has to do with the Bible at all.

And it's a, at best, it's a distraction. Well, I think it was summed up best by the ants analogy because if you go back and you study just ancient cultures and ancient histories, from the dawn of time, men have tried to be more than they are. And that leads them into false religions when they want to be more than they are. And you have clear examples of this like in the Tower of B- ebbel example in the Bible. They want to become more than they are and destruction happens because of this. And like you said, it's very similar to being me and an ant. How can the ant empower

on me and embody me and become more than me? I'm so much bigger than the ant. And if you read the Bible, that's how it's supposed to be between man and God. But people have tried to become more than they are. And they don't realize it because they're so indoctrinated that they lose sight of that and try to entice people, entice the itching years with doctrines that are the framework for developing other doctrines where people are more than human. I got into a conversation with this guy when I started doing investigating John Wimber. I was actually investigating the kingdom

of mythology and how it evolved from laterane into this. And John Wimber is a stepping stone as you go into this. And the focus, the guy who was arguing with me, his point was, well, John Wimber didn't teach kingdom of mythology. And for me, they're both one and the same. If you don't teach the biblical version and you have this intermediate version that leads you to the kingdom of mythology, it's the same thing. You've just taken the steering wheel and the steering wheel is turning further as you go. Well, that's the way I see it because if you're trying to be more

than an ant in God's eyes, you're trying to be something that you aren't and you're actually out of your place. So for me, if people could just focus on the simple things and ignore all of this doctrine that leads you to believe that you too can be a manifestation of the Son of God and be empowered with God and rise up to fight this race war that they're not telling you that it is a race war that you're going to fight. If you can just focus on the biblical things, you don't have to worry about all of this other mass. That's that's by take away from everything that you guys have

said. Well, I would agree with that. So yeah, I just think that there's a lot of there's a lot of hype out there. I think they're targeting the younger generation for sure with great commission mandates and you can do this for Jesus and that and it's a big man-made movement and I just think that if we're really talking about the Great Commission and fulfilling that, we could do that in our own workplace and in our own neighborhoods. Yeah, and I just it's an interesting dilemma especially in the Western culture, particularly in the United States because we are

we're so individualistic and we're being all we can be and we're trained and so it's so anti that to allow God to be God and to simply not try and build my own name or my own legacy or you know this quest to have a great grand adventure and to leave a legacy and you know I think one of the things that was really appalling and the conversation about the ant was when Dean continued and said you know that you know sometimes God ties his hands on purpose and he leaves it up to the ants and he because he's done that he can't intervene even if he wanted to and if

we don't do our job his ants the job is that he's given us because some ants are you know doing the border and he went into this thing that's like whoa and I would say where is that in the Bible that's what he said that is actually what you said where is that going to the page but he's in there it's in there for it's it's a sweeping you know it's like well but I think that's it is his God is enough and he's big enough and and we don't we don't need to be here I don't I don't need to be God I I'm a mess I can't do that I don't

want to do that and I'm scared of anybody who says they are and want to it's it's it's heretical but it's also really scary because people are just so broken absolutely there there's a problem with arrogance and it starts with thinking that you can become a God how can you not be arrogant if you think that you are a God and something you said I was just laughing I was picturing you said something to the effect is all you have to do is look at the minister and say where's that in the Bible think of what would happen if every single person in every one

of the branches of this movement were to suddenly rise up to the pastor and say where's that in the Bible they would realize that half the sermons they preach aren't from the Bible it's from their own I don't even know what you call it it's it's a I hate to use the word Christianity it's their own version of Christianity but it's not even Christianity they're bringing because that's might crisis it my kingdom is not of this world and that's not what they're teaching so if everybody would arise up and say that's not in the Bible show me where that's in the Bible I

think change would happen and I think things would be much different so thank you so much for doing this well thank you for had us yeah thank you so much well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at william-branam.org for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation read Weaponized Religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon Kindle Inaudible