God in a Box: Breaking Free from Dominion Theology

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend Bob Scott, former co-founder of the Kansas City Fellowship and the author of Three Books, the latest of which is some say they blundered breaking my decades of silence on Mike Bickel, the Kansas City prophets, and the international house of prayer. Bob it's good to be back and to talk about all things mess in the Christian world today. We've gone

through the series talking about how things got to where they are and you mentioned you wanted a break from that to talk about dominionism and seven mountain mandate type of stuff which is it's interesting because I like to take things from multiple different perspectives and as you know I've talked about this with multiple people at this point the last one was Jed Hartley but talking about just the differences between it and Christianity and there's some history there with which you know this history goes back millennia you can go back as far back as you want to go which you now talk about but in the near history if you

go back to where my my research on the latest book goes back to Christian identity and really that's the root of what became the latirane movement largely it was embedded in Pentecostalism but there was this notion that the United States was being infiltrated but through Christian identity they thought that there was basically subhumans and and the children of God and the it can't it developed from British Israelism they thought that the United States and Canada and the British Isles were the lost descendants of the lost ten tribes of Israel but the opposing thought to that once it became

Christian identity was there is this lesser class of humans they use different terms but basically false Jews that had taken over they've taken over our entertainment industry they're embedded in our politics they're basically every aspect of life and we need to fight back we need to take this back elders of Zion or something there it's oh it's a crazy interesting history and it tie it's more closely related to the New Apostolic Reformation than people realize so C. Peter Wagner who is the one who named it the New dollar reformation was at a fuller seminary. Charles Fuller, who founded the seminary, was

a leading ranking member of the, they were called the defenders of the Christian faith, which was led by Gerald Burton-Winrod. Gerald Burton-Winrod was a no-name preacher from Kansas, just humble guy, no money, allegedly humble. He goes to Germany and has counsel before the war. He has counsel with Hitler. He suddenly comes back with massive amounts of money, massive, and launches this huge campaign. The campaign included Christian fundamentalism, but also with that, he carried with him the copy of the protocols of the learned elders of Zion, and he starts distributing it. So he's distributing it and Henry Ford of the

Motor Company. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, dearborn of the independent. I should say, it wasn't alive, but I remember reading about this. Yeah, so they're spreading it too through the dearborn independent, but what happened essentially was it was coming into the, into the nation at a time whenever the politicized propaganda was that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was working with the false Jews, and they were trying to shift the country into a direction that essentially was leading towards Armageddon. And we'll get into it more as we go, but essentially what they wanted to do was they wanted to retake the mountains. They wanted to take over the entertainment

industry and block the false Jews, the government, block the false Jews, and it became deeply rooted into the laterane theology. If you understand, if you understand the history of what I'm talking about, you understand that it is connected to laterane. Well, then from laterane came the NAR.

So what we have today, it's not new like people think. This is history of heating itself then, but as you and I'll talk, it goes back from millennia. What parallel to what you're talking about, and you're going to have to forgive me, you're going to have to help me because I'm having a brain glitch right now. But there was also a movement of, you know, or Winston Churchill, Helen Keller, Theodore Roosevelt, we're all talking about the fact that there were a superior race.

What's the word I'm talking about? I keep saying Euthanasia, but it wasn't Euthanasia, but it was like an E word. It was eugenics. They were eugenics. That's the word I'm looking for. And you know, people don't realize that that was taught in American schools as though as a science, people were breathing. Basically, we can breed ourselves a certain way and outbreed all of the bad quality genes. Well, I'll give you an example of somebody, Charles Limberg.

Our modern world doesn't really fully grasp that Charles Limberg in the 1930s was the rock star. Like, he was the man, right, because of the fact that he had flown to Paris nonstop over the ocean.

But Limber bought into the whole eugenics thing. And of course, later it was discovered that he like, you know, this is the other scandal if you go to the English crown. There was a reason why Edward advocated because Edward and Mrs. Simpson were tied and they loved Hitler.

Like, there was a whole bunch of people in the British aristocracy that loved the German efficiency. They loved all of that. They thought it was a better way of life. And they thought they were superior race, right?

Well, it was discovered years later, years later, after Limber didn't die. There was two groups of kids in Germany that claimed that he was their father. Everybody used to laugh at him, right? And sure enough, once DNA testing became a thing, they tested him and you know, he had not only a family in the United States, he had two families in Germany.

And his whole idea was I have superior genes. I need to populate, like, I need to get as many women pregnant. I mean, it's really twisted now, you know, in 2025, but a hundred years ago, that was a thing.

Like, there, I mean, I'm talking about Winston Churchill, Helen Keller, who's blind in death is into it. Like there's all these really famous, high-profile people that all accepted this. And of course, as most people know, so did, what was it, Margaret, was it Margaret Mead or whoever that started Planned Parenthood?

It was all driven by this need of trying to, you know, control the birth of black people. So in my latest book, the Christian identity to the NAR, I go back through some of that history.

I actually got most of it from Michael Barkun's book Religion and the Racist Right. He talks about how all of this developed, but he only started at a point. So I went back, I traced it as best I could back before him and King James, whenever he was translating the King James Bible, I catch all kinds of flack when I mention this, but this is fact.

King James thought that he was descended directly from King David because he bought into this thing. So he's translating the Bible because we are the new, we're the lost tribes of everyone. King James, who loved little boys.

Yeah, it's a mess, man, when you think about it. It really is. Humanity is so broken. I think, you know, to basically give all of this, you know, an oversimplified generalization word, it's about elitism, you know what I mean?

And it's plagued humanity since the beginning of time. That's why I kind of wanted to touch on this dominion thing because, interestingly, because of this dance-older thing, I've been contacted by these newspaper reporters, right?

are starting out from a paradigm. And their paradigm is religious right, bad, right? Religious right wants to take over the world. And so they're all armed with dominionism, right? And so they're all trying to tie the knot between the link between vans and dominionism and whatever, because in their view, that's the problem, right?

Right? So here I am, well, just sidebar here, what maybe most people don't realize is the vast majority of the press is under 40 years old. That is the generation who has never really taught history.

I mean, and world history like hardly at all, right? So I'm having these conversations with these reporters. And I'm trying to explain to them that dominionism as a concept is not uniquely Christian.

And there, I mean, it sounds weird, but they're like, what do you mean? Like they think that the concept of dominionism is something that Christians came up with. And I said, stop a second.

Do you understand what's going on in the world, the Muslim world and the religion of Islam? I'm like, well, who do you mean? I said, do you know what their goal is? They want to build a caliphate.

I go, everything you're seeing right now, that's happening in the world with the Muslim community, the reason why they're here in the United States, the reason why they're into Europe, the reason why they gave Nelson Mandela $200 million to open up the border so Muslims could immigrate into South Africa is because they're building a caliphate.

They believe just like many in the religious right believe that Jesus coming back and he's gonna set up the kingdom of God on earth, they believe the same thing in Islam. It's the same exact concept.

And I said, and yet you don't talk about that. I said, have you seen what's going on down in Texas? You wake up one day and suddenly they're building this massive community down there.

Do you not understand what's going on in New York right now? Do you not understand what's going on? And I said, and here's the crazy thing about it, is Christians, they're trying to do this by having crusades and converting people and the Muslims are doing it and their plan is rock solid because they're gonna outpopulate us.

You know, or Christian women are having 1.7 children, Muslim women are having 5, 6, and 7 children. You know, and part of the problem, even. that. Even that problem kind of goes back to Christian identity. They were so focused against the Catholic Church and the Jews that heavily influenced people's thinking against, this is the Catholic Church, this is the people who did the Spanish Inquisition. And when people think about religious warfare, they kind of stop there. They don't go back in time and realize that religious wars have a real testament, religious wars have been since the dawn of time.

People want to take control of other humans. That's the way it works. And it's usually the bad guys that are wanting to take control of the other humans. And you know, God is saying we want peace.

We want to live and help our brother. I love your neighbor as yourself kind of religion. Well, that's not what's being created here. And the sad part is that's embedded into what is called Christianity today. We want this dominionism because that's our pride, our heritage.

We can be in control. It's all about control, isn't it? Really? And that's one of the things I was trying to point out to these reporters. I said, so you think dominion is a uniquely Christian thing that's sort of happening in the last few years, like in the last couple decades or the last couple generations. I said, do you understand human history? You know, as you just said earlier, I said, from the beginning of time, when the first humans were on this earth, until now, there's always been a consistent dynamic in play. And that's that humans want to control other humans.

Whether it's in your family, right? Whether it's at work, whether it's in your city, whether it's in your nation, whether it's the globe, humans want to control other humans. The ones like you were talking about that are driven by selfish ambition and greed. They want to control the masses, right? Because they want to control the wealth. They want the stature. So what's driving them is this overwhelming passion for status and stuff, right? So as I said, to him, I go, what do you think Nebuchadnezzar was doing in Babylon? Do you think he was happy just having a little city? No. He was trying to conquer everyone else. I said, what do you think

Cyrus was doing in Persia? I said, how did Alexander get his name? Like, sorry, how did Alexander get the name great? What do you mean? And I go, why is he great? He's great because he conquered everyone else. Right? I go, it's like, I go, we have a guy called Alexander the great doing the thing that everybody thinks is bad. Right? It's like, I go, you guys, this is the very thing you guys are all complaining about. And yet he's still Alexander the great. I go, What was Julius Caesar doing?

Why was he over there in what's now modern in Europe, conquering tribes? I go, I go, dominion, this need to control other people to go, it's always been there, stop it. It's like you're trying to make this thing a uniquely, you know, Christian right wing thing and I go, this has been human nature.

I go, what do you think the third right is? I don't know. It's the third thousand year reign. I have a buddy who introduced me to Colonel Eugene Bert. Colonel Bert was one of the first guys over the Ramaghan Bridge, which was the first entry into Germany and Second World War.

Colonel Bert went on to be the Commodate, it's Bando prison. So I enjoyed some evenings with him in Berlin. And guess who he had? It's Bando, Rudolph Hess and Albert Spear. Wow. So I got sort of an inside view of what Albert Spear was doing because Albert Spear was the architect, right?

You can go to Germany today and there are still buildings that he designed better there that they can't get rid of. Like they've tried to blow every piece of memorabilia from the Nazi decade there we'll call it.

Oh, like they don't want anything to remain, right? And yet they can't even blow this stuff up. He built it so well. And when you asked him why, what was his mandate? It needs to last a thousand years.

Right? So Hitler's dominionism, right? Him there had dominionism. What do you think Joseph Stalin was doing, right? So that's what I mean, I just, I have a problem when I hear this single very narrow perspective on dominionism as though somehow it's this uniquely right-wing Christian thing and I'm like, wait a minute, this is about human history for as far back as you can go.

It's funny too. I watch the comment feeds whenever we put stuff out and you can talk about dominionism and you'll find Pentecostal people who haven't really adopted the New Apostolic Reformation ways. They will just blast it and condemn it and say, that's why we stuck with Pentecostalism.

We're not like this and I don't comment back but I'm like, do you not know your history? If you go back to John Alexander Dowey, what did he do? He created the Theocratic party.

Look at the NAR today, what they've done is they basically created a Theocratic party. Dowey wanted to take control. role of the nation. First, he took over Chicago and basically owned Chicago. When he left Chicago, his void is what allowed the Chicago Mafia to come and take control. Because of Dally, we had the mob. Then he moved to Zion City, and he basically wants to create the city of Zion built in the United States, built on British and on Earth and they were like you mentioned the Third Reich. They were selling thousand-year leases to their properties

because of this. Well, he goes and they tried to take over, forcibly, take over New York City. So he goes in these, you can see these caravans of people going to New York door-to-door, banging on their door. You will be converted. How's that not dominionism? That's what he's trying to do. Take dominion of New York City. His intent was really to take over the nation with his theocratic party, but then he went crazy and it died out. When it died out, Charles Fox, Paul Romm and John G. Lake, all these other people came in design trying

to take over his empire because they wanted the dominion that Dally was establishing and creating. And they wanted his financial empire. You want to get in trouble? I always want to get in trouble. Okay. So I'm going to go there on something that's bothered me.

And again, when I share some of this stuff, I don't always have conclusions. I have ponderings, meaning that this is in process. So so much of the dominion idea is rooted in the Old Testament. And it's rooted in a worldview that the Israelites had about their destiny. And that one day this Messiah was going to come and they were going to rule the world, right? So it's rooted in that. But here's the paradox of this, which has always been fascinating to me. What people don't seem to grasp is the unified nation of Israel, i.e. the 12 tribes together as a unified nation. Modern Israel has lasted longer

than that little unified kingdom existed, right? So it's sort of weird to me because there's like you read all the, in fact, what it reminds me of is the Irish, right? The luck of the Irish, right? All this stuff. Where do the Irish ever been lucky? Like they're one of the most oppressed people groups in Europe, right? It's it's like in their oppression, they created this hope, right? This, you know, that one day there's a lot of change. You know, we're going to be lucky, you know, but they were never lucky. Even and yeah.

There's this whole thing about Shamrox and luck and all this kind of stuff. Well, you think about the Israelites, right? She got these 12 tribes, you know, these, these people that, you know, supposedly come out of, out of Egypt, who are being led by a half breed guy.

And what I mean by a half breed is that Joshua comes from the tribe of Ephraim. And Ephraim's mother was Egyptian and his father was Jewish. Our Hebrew will say, right? So in other words, you've got a biracial if you want to use that word, even though it technically isn't biracial, but I'm just saying two completely different cultures who's leading this group of people in, right?

And they get across the Jordan and of course, they're in what later becomes the tribe of Ephraim's land. But like they're proportioning out all this land and chasing out the native, right? So they did the same thing the colonialists did when they came to America, right?

And we pushed all the indigenous people out. Well, they did the same thing. They came in there, but again, everybody goes, well, that's wrong. You know, what they did was wrong. No, that's what you did.

There was no rule that, you know what I mean? It's like I get really frustrated with people trying to put modern, you know, worldviews on ancient history. Everybody was doing it to everyone else.

They were, you know, the only rule in the ancient world was power, right? If I got more power than you, so what was that's the fact? Might is right. In the ancient world, might is right, right?

So they come in there and they do, and they put their, all their stuff in a, in a big tent, right, in Shiloh, in Ephraim, and then they all go out, right? But for years, they're like, you know, 12 little independent, kind of travel things.

Until Saul comes along and he puts them all together and then David takes over. And of course, here's the problem. You've got this 12 raggedag groups of 12 raggedag tribes that decide to come together because they need it become a nation.

Why do they need to become a nation? Why don't they stay independent? The reason is that South of them is an ancient empire with massive armies in great wealth who can pulverize them at any moment, right?

What's north of them? Another ancient kingdom called Assyria, right? Who's got massive armies in great wealth? What's to the east of them? Babylon. What also great, right? They're this little puny, and this is what I don't think people understand because you read the Old Testament and it's glorious Israel, right?

Everything's glorious Israel. I listen to Sunday morning preachers and then they ask, oh, the glory of this, you know, all this kind of stuff and I'm like, you guys, these This is a minority group, right?

This is a little baby group to fact the stories, once you understand who they are and the limitations they had, the victories they won are even more miraculous, right? Because they're way out-gunned, right?

It's one of these, you know, like, you know, the dirty dozen movies, right? It's like, they're like this little group of, you know, that basically holds their own. I will like try to, anyways.

But that's because they're between three great forces, right? But here's what gets interesting. He's David takes over, right? He becomes king.

And he ends up in trying to unify and make the nation, creating the offense

that later would cause the whole thing to fall apart, right? And you know what it was? He moved the tabernacle from the type of Ephraim where it had been between, you know, where they had made their covenant with God to Jerusalem, to his tribe.

And he created an offense, right? Because we're the keeper of the tent up here, right? But, you know, for the sake of holding everyone together. So he dies and then it gets even weirder because the first born son of David doesn't even become king.

How does Solomon become the king? He's like the bastard son, right? He's the, he's the, you know, what do they call it? He's the affair son, right? It's like, oh my gosh, this gets so weird, right?

So, and I'm only trying to say this because I believe that the Bible is the most scrubbed pizza piece of literature on Sunday morning in the world. It's like, it's like it all of a sudden gets reduced down to little, you know, primary school, no one is a little arkiing.

We all sing songs. We have this idealized view of this whole story, right? So what ends up happening is that Solomon's son takes over Rhea Bohm and a whole thing splits, right? And then when Jesus, by the time you get to the time of Jesus, it's like all divided into three areas and they hate each other.

Say, there is no glorious united Israel that lasted for a thousand years. It lasted less than 70 years. I think modern Israel are in 72 years now. So it's so interesting to me because the modern Israel is far more sustainable than ancient Israel was.

And yet we have all this sort of idyllic view point of this thing. I'm glad that you brought that up because for me, a person who grew up in this weird, isolated cult, I read my Bible.

I read it when I was in the cult. And then after I left it, I... read it over and over. I've mentioned this several times. I just actually just had this conversation earlier, I guess it was yesterday with a person.

Once I started entering into mainstream churches, I struggled to fit in because I knew what the Bible said. And I would hear them preaching and I was like, wait a minute, do you guys not know what it is?

The book that you're preaching from. Right. Because like you said, they're glazing over and they're telling the happy points. And anybody who knows about history knows that if you only talk about the good stuff, you're going to eventually repeat the bad stuff.

But here's the bigger problem. What they have done, they have changed the nature of the Bible itself. And let me explain this because I'll get, I know we'll get pushed back for this one.

I'm going to put this up. That's what I said. Do you want to go down this road? Because we're going to get some push back on this. Yeah. But honestly, if you read the Bible and you know what's in it, if you know what the intents of the authors, when they're writing the books, they're very clear what their intention is.

If you read it as a book, not as a piece together, like these, I don't know if you've seen the guys who are doing the serial killings and they take these little snippets out of magazines, that's the kind of preaching that they're doing.

They're taking these little snippets. Yeah. At Thomas Jefferson did that. That's how he made his Bible. That's all the stuff he didn't like out of it. Well, so that's what they're doing. But it changes the nature of the book because the book is very clear.

The authors are very clear in what they describe as learning from their mistakes. Whenever, so God actually commissions some of these things to happen. They commissions the war, go down to this country, you'll be, you'll take over this country, et cetera.

And Paul calls, the whole thing is basically a lesson. They're learning a lesson. So God sends them out, the kingdom rise, they fall into sin, the kingdom falls. They're learning a lesson from it.

And each time they try to claim dominion over some other nation, that's what happens. They try to claim dominion. Some guy gets the big head and they start to think that he's something. And then he falls to idolatry and the whole thing falls down over and over and over and over again.

You can read the book of kings. It's talking about kingdom rises, kingdom falls, kingdom rises. That's why, to your point, I don't think a lot of people understand, is the Old Testament as we know it, was actually pulled together while they were in Babylon in captivity.

The second and most holy book in Judaism is the Talmud, but it's called the Babylonian Talmud. And the reason was, is they were people in a foreign country trying to hang onto their culture.

And so the preses and the scribes and the scholars in Babylon were trying to like, hey, we got to write all this stuff down like we need to... preserve our culture, right? And I get it. And it's not any different than when the African slaves came to America, right? Trying to preserve their African culture. So much of black churches, they don't, if they have never been to Africa, they don't understand that this goes there, this ties into that. Your ancestors came over here and a lot of this ties into their tribal backgrounds, you know, the songs, right? The songs they all, the biblical songs, they so identified

with the Israelites, right? Who were basically getting the crap beat out of them constantly, right? But, you know, and people get upset with me, but I'll give you just one little thing. If you'll notice, it says in Genesis, it calls, it says Abraham from Caldia. Well, the problem is, is that

Caldia didn't exist at the time of Abraham, but Caldia does, while they're all in Babylon. So somebody who's pulling all of this, these stories together, right, and translating this, uses a mod, and this is one of the big clues, right? They give you, it's, they're using a present example that people would understand, like, oh, Abraham's from Caldia now, you know, all right, in 700 BC, you know what I mean? So, yeah, this gets really interesting for me, you know, because it's like, okay, but here's what I do, just if you want to know, or I get my perspective from,

it's my point of view, that if you just read the Bible by itself, while you may find yourself getting inspired, and it's, you know, and there's great wisdom and knowledge and understand so much it's rich. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top, and as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I'm very careful who I have the conversation with So I don't know that I've really talked about this much

in the public, but you're right, if you have the context of what happened in history and you have the context of the Bible, you get a better understanding of what the people were talking about.

And the equivalent for people who don't understand this, think back to the Civil War and think about some person who's writing about the details that are happening at one specific battle in one of the battle states of the Civil War and he's describing what it was like, what the air was like, what the city was like, how they used to go to the market and suddenly the market is demolished because you get a better understanding of that battle because you've got another perspective looking in.

The more perspectives, the better you get. Well, what has happened is, in my opinion, people have preached the Bible delicately and avoided anything that people might find offensive, but that's not the way history works.

You want to read the good and the bad so that you don't repeat the bad. And there came a time after kingdoms rose and kingdoms fall when Babylon invades and they take all, they basically destroy the temple, the libraries, everything that the children of Israel had as far as their heritage.

They were creating cultural genocide to the children of Israel and they took the wise people from Israel. What does this mean? The people who could read and write were going like the Hebrew boys were going because they could read and write.

Well, after cultural genocide, what do you do? You start to piece back together your history because you just lost your culture. And they're in one of the greatest libraries of the ancient world in the Babylonian library.

How do you do this? How do you piece together something that has been obliterated? And I think that's the thing that people miss. You find atheists who say, well, I read the Epic of Gilgamesh and I see suddenly, wait a minute, the Bible copied the Epic of Gilgamesh and you find the fundamentalist hardcore evangelicals that say, no, this can't be copied.

And they don't understand their own history. They don't understand that it was obliterated. They had to piece back together. So I can picture the people going through the libraries and trying to find what matches what I remember reading in our holy books.

And that word holy books, I think that has became obscured over time because whenever people say the Bible is the word of God, it takes a different meaning than what they actually meant by a holy book.

This was a holy book of our culture, of our laws, our statutes, of our history. And it included both the good and the bad history. It included everything. This was their holy book. That was their culture.

So like you said, Babylon invaded, wiped out their culture. They had no culture. They start piecing together as best... they can, and then start to continue to build what became the holy books. And I'm not making anything up here.

You can read that directly in the Bible. You can read that this is happening. And you can read from some of the other ancient cultures that this is happening. So this is nothing that Bob and I are making up, but if you remove that element of history, what you end up with is you end up with a different Bible than they were even reading.

Now, well, maybe it's my personality or maybe it's life lessons, I'm not really sure. But one of my struggles within the religious, Christian religious world is this diametric mindset of, you're either right or wrong, you know, that's where fundamentalism kind of bothers me a bit because it's like this mentality.

If I'm right, that makes you wrong. So therefore I am right and you are wrong. And what does it do? It's like it reduces everything down to this simple little thing and then we end up having conflict.

And then as we know from history, we start killing each other over our conflict, right? Because, you know, I'm right and I'm God's man, so I have the right to kill you. And that's always bothered me.

And part of it is growing up and getting married, right? What happens when you get married? You get to live with a woman. And as we all know, when a man lives with a woman, you can look at the same situation and come up with two completely different conclusions happening in this moment, right?

The difference is her understanding is right and yours is wrong, but what I'm saying is, is there two perspectives? Right? In other words, and there can be different, right? So then when I got into the whole racial reconciliation world, right?

And you're in there with people that are just been beating the crap out of each other and killing each other, right? And you start listening and you begin to realize that they're both right.

So what do you do with that, right? And so that's where I began to realize, and I was just telling your friend this week, one of my favorite verses. And the whole Bible is when Paul's writing to the Ephesians and he talks about the manifest, the manifold wisdom of God, the many faceted wisdom of God, right?

And you begin to realize that, wait a minute, God's diverse. God's got many facets to it, right? But the thing that makes him so amazing is somehow he's able to hold all these facets together, right?

And handle it where we can. He seemed to like, it's my facet, first year facet, right? It's like we get into these kinds. So that's where I struggle a lot of times and I don't even like getting into some of these religious conversations because suddenly you just see people going to this defensive posture, right?

And it's like, it's like they're threatened by a different perspective. The way I look at it is, see people, and I've struggled with this my whole life is is that people immediately, if you say something different, they get on the defense and it's me, it's us versus you, right?

It's this kind of thing. My brain goes, how does this fit with that? Yeah, see I look at it like a puzzle, right? It's like, okay, you got a piece and I got a piece.

And why are we assuming that these things are confrontational and conflicting? What if they're part of the same thing, right? And so that's been my struggle. So that's what happens with me, even when I read my Bible.

I realized that wait a minute here, this is a single perspective, right? And again, so much of the Old Testament, just so people understand, is history. It's a giant history book. It's a people telling a story.

But what's interesting is they have found ancient writings in Assyria talking about the same battles that the Bible writes about. And there's an Assyrian perspective. That's very different than this part, right? And people like, well, they're wrong.

Well, it's kind of like what just happened in Iran, right? There's an American, there's a Western version of what happened. And then there's the Iranian version of what happened, right? I mean, you know, it's like you're sitting there and they're going, we won.

And we're over going, no, we won, right? And it's like, wait a minute, this is happening at the same time, right? And it's just been going on for thousands of years. So that's why, you know, like I said, I try to look at this, you know, it's like, I know this sounds funny, but I like to get up at the bird's eye view, like a helicopter and circle around the whole thing.

You know, I'm talking about, I think you understand, because you're a little bit like I am. It's like, I want to look at this from all the angles. So I go, look at history books.

I go look at all the other stuff that's out there that adds more facets, more color, more dimension to this story, right? And that's where you began to discover that so much of what's preached from pulpits is actually completely uncontactualized and the reason why we get into such bizarre thinking about stuff is because we don't do our homework and we don't really look at the bigger picture here, right?

And so we suddenly take a little thing like this, you know, I mean, there's a reason why there's 40,000 denominations out there, right? Well, he sprinkles, that's wrong. He don't help, because he didn't get dumped, right?

Oh no, the elder so-so can't baptize him, it got me past it. Oh, we gotta start another church now, you know what I mean? And I mean, the whole of Christianity is littered by people fighting over the most stupid rudimentary things.

And it's just like, God, are we children here? Like, can we grow up? It's like, oh, I don't, you know, it's the whole thing. I'm taking my ball and going home. I'm gonna stop my old church.

I'm gonna stop my old denomination. This is another problem that I have. This whole world is confusing to me. After leaving this isolationist group, I just don't understand it. Like you, I like the birds I view.

I like to know everything that I can about something. And here's where it gets really scary for me. There are really, really, really smart people that are my peers in this Christian world. They understand the necessity for a bird's eye view.

But the moment in which you mentioned the Bible with the birds I view, no, can't do that. It's gotta be Bible only. And the way that I try to explain it is, picture the military.

And picture you're a private in the military. And the general tells you, go and fight this battle over here. And the general knows that you're gonna lose that battle. And you go into it, your only perspective is that you're going to fight.

You have no idea that the general knows you're going to lose that battle. And you may lose men. But because you lose that battle and because so many enemy forces are focused over here, he can go invade this other territory and win the war.

So your battle is just as important, but in the grand scheme of things you're gonna lose. Your perspective is somebody who's got this little, little, tiny perspective. Well, the way they preach the Bible, where they cut out all of the things that are very important history and just glaze over it and give you these little perspectives.

What they're doing is they're taking God and they're putting him down at the private level. God doesn't have control over this enemy nation. God doesn't have control enough to let the people see that they can learn by their mistakes.

They've taken God and they've diminished him. And then take that to a broader scale. If you are, if you love history like I do, and you also love religious history like I do, ancient mythologies, et cetera, look at the shift in the world.

From the perspective of the way that Christianity is taught by these people who ignore histories, they have a God that's not in control. But what if God and all of these other nations and religions and cultures would have got a shifting them slightly towards truth in the same way, knowing that they're in error, in the same way that the children of Israel were in error.

Because this is happening on a global scale and God said for God loved the whole world. It doesn't say for God loved just this little tiny people. God loved the world. And so you have to believe that if there is a God that is that powerful, that is that all knowing that can shift entire cultures, we'll look at how those cultures shifted.

You know, there are instances of child sacrifice in the world today, but on the global scale that we have, it's minuscule compared to what it was in the ancient world. All of these things have shifted gradually towards getting better.

Now can I say that, you know, some ancient culture or some other religion is that's where you're going to go to find God? I can't say that, but can you say that God is in control of it all?

Yes. And that's really the problem that I have with dominionism because what they've done is they've taken God from the general level down to, well, he's a private and he needs us to be in control of these other nations and we're going to dictate to them the way that they should be.

So I'm just taking God out of the out of control into this little tiny scale. My head is exploding right now, so I'm okay, like 10 things popping in my head, but just a tear point here, Mike and I got a big fight over this in the 80s because he kept telling everyone there's going to be this end time revival, this was his mentor, there's going to be an end time revival, you know, Bob Jones was feeding this, there's going to be a billion souls saved and Christians are going to take over the world.

I mean, I'm simplifying this, but that's basically the home mentality, right? Which is it new, but again, that's what was driving him and I said to him, my day said, so who's going to be like running these nations?

He said, he goes, oh, the Apostles and prophets, and I just, oh, my God, I remember just inside of me going, oh, my God, and I went, hey, Mike, we already did that. It was called the Catholic Church.

It was a disaster and he didn't look at me and he was like, you know, he was like, I'm all confused. And then we already had the church ruling government. It doesn't work. I go, I don't know anywhere in human history where church leaders running civic government has ever worked.

They're not qualified, they don't have the skillsets there, you know, I go, I mean, I just could not get my head around the thinking, right? It's just like, what do you mean, like, you think that's a good thing?

But again, it's the theocracy, right? It's this whole theocracy. What Islam has, right? So it's anyway, so that's one thing, the second thing to our point here about diversity and different perspectives. I don't know how many people that's listening may be aware of this.

But during the time of Jesus, there's a reason why there's a conflict. between, you know, Southern Israel, you know, which is Judea, right? And Samaria. And you know what the conflict was? The conflict was the same conflict that David created thousand years earlier.

Right? Who were the Samaritans? The Samaritans had their own temple. They had their own scriptures. They thought that Judeans and David screwed it up because when Joshua brought the Tabernacle in and set it up in Ephraim in Samaria, what was then now Samaria, that was what God wanted.

And David missed God, right? So this is so funny because you're like, you know, again, because the Judeans controlled the narrative, right? Our viewpoint is, is David, you know, did the right thing. Samaritans didn't think like that.

Samaritans thought that David did the wrong thing. That he disobeyed God, right? And that David was full of pride because David wanted to be all about, I'm going to build my, you know, what David looked around and what all the other nations had, which made them a unique nation, was they all had a palace for their king and a temple for their God, right?

That's what you do. You build a national temple for your God and you build a national palace for your king. And, you know, now you're legit. And that's exactly David follows the same pattern that everybody else has got.

And that's what he does. Well, he makes every, he makes the Samaritans or the, if you're right, he's never mad. Like you still, so what do they do? They recreate it. They go, you screwed up.

And they, so what does Jesus do? He goes and befriend Samaritans, right? He does the very opposite of what we do today, theologically, right? We get, you know, we do what the Judeans do, right?

We hate these people so much. They're apostate. In fact, we hate them so much. We're not even going to walk on their soil to get to Galilee. We're going across the Jordan and up the other side and back across.

And we're going to take the long way because these people are apostate, right? Jesus doesn't think like that, right? And so this is always intrigued me. It's like, wait a minute. He's crossing the boundary, like the religious boundary.

He's over there with the heretics, right? That fascinates me. I mean, it just challenges me to my core, right? It's like, wait a minute. You know, we're over here killing each other because I'm right and you're wrong.

And Jesus going over there and healing the people that are the heretics. And I just think there's something there that the modern church needs to rally back around. Because I think that's a transformational way of living.

And we've lost all that. That's why we have 40,000 denominations. I'm right, and you're wrong, John, didn't you know that? We have lost it, and you know, so take that a step further.

I'm one of these people that I think architecturally. If you're talking to a Christian and you describe what you just described, because their mindset is that the way the Bible was written, it was written as a all perfect entity describing only the good things.

That's literally how it's taught in these Christian churches. It's scrubbed. It's scrubbed, but because they've been taught and you mentioned the word King David, what happens is it sets off the programming that's in their head, and they think, oh, I can relate to this.

So I see that there are two descendants of King David, and God loves both of them. So what Bob said makes sense. Take it back further, all the way back to Adam and Eve.

Every culture, every civilization that has risen in time. If you believe the Bible, and you believe the book of Genesis, it all came from Adam and Eve, and God, it's God's creation. Does not God love the people of the other parts of his creation?

Is he not leading them in directions? They don't have the same equivalent of a holy book that lasted through time like we have, but can we not say that God is going to lead them hopefully into all truth?

In the way that the Bible is written, if you read it cover to cover only for what it says, ignore what everybody else says, just read it for what it says. You can come to that conclusion for God love the whole world.

But if you read it from the perspective of these Christian minister, quote unquote Christian ministers that whitewash the whole thing, no, that was a warring nation. God said to invade them, God said to kill them, so therefore they're the bad guys.

That's how they look at it, and that's not the way, if you read the Bible, that's not what God says, that's not what is supposed to be. It limits God and it makes God a narcissist.

We had the conversation about narcissists before they like to do this. They like to change the personality of God to match their own flaws. And I think if you take anything away from this conversation, which this is going to get me in all kinds of trouble, thank you, Bob, but if you follow out to its logical conclusion, we're just thinking out loud here, John.

These people, because they don't understand God, the only way they can understand them is to put their own flaws into the nature of God and decrease his power so that they can understand it.

And when you do that, what kind of a box are you putting God in? Well, I've maintained to all of the people in my circle that death is going to be the greatest revelation of our lives, because I think once we transition out of these human limitations in our bodies, and we actually see God, we're going to realize, oh my God, I got so much stuff wrong, right?

It's like, think about this. of our descriptions of God are human. Right? In other words, we've taken this. I mean, you're talking about this guy created universes. Yeah. Right? I mean, do you understand who this is? And somehow we've reduced them down to human sexuality and human emotions and human thinking, right? Because we're so puny in what we know, right? That we can't think outside of it. We just can't get outside the box. And I'm just that's why even in these discussions, I'm always saying I'm thinking out loud here, but I don't hold anything like dogmatic because

I know I'm going to get my mouth shut when I die because I'm going to be going, oh my gosh, I so did not get this. Right? And the funny part about everything that you just said, you said this guy created this being. Yeah, exactly. You know, so one other thing and I know we got to wind this up, but this all ties back into what I've been dealing with with my book and leaders.

People do not seem to have the capacity to understand that good people do bad things and bad people do good things. This isn't a simple black and white yes or no good or evil. Meaning that I have a younger generation in particular who hurt by Mike, what did they think he's the son of Satan?

Right? I mean, they just think he's evil personified. And the reason is because they don't know him like I do. I've known him since we were 18 and 19 years old. I know his heart.

I know what's in there, but like so many other guys that have come through my counseling or consulting thing, they're good guys who are very broken and do bad things and hate themselves because they do bad things. And they're like Paul who goes, I don't want to do bad things, but I do bad things. And it's not that simple. I just wish people would would not be so absolute and dogmatic and they're thinking and realize this is manifold. It's many faceted that we live in the world of dynamic tensions. Good, evil up, down, in, out, right? There's all these words over here. But we live,

we're like the little slide thing on a balance thing on your stereo in the old days where you used to slide it. It's like in some situations it's this and then it slides over. It's not static.

So, you know, just I just think and the key to all of this is I think what's in your heart, at least what I was hearing from you is humility. It's like, God, that's absolutely humility here.

And not assume we know everything. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And it comes down to the point where... You have to understand that there are extremes on both sides Because whenever people demonize Mike what they're eliminating in my opinion Which I don't know Mike. I don't know his medical history anything like this But I do know and understand the mental health issues of the nation and I know that there are some very Good people who got executed for very bad things But something happened in their head and they couldn't they literally could not stop what they were doing and

Should they have died, you know, I don't know if I'm for the death penalty But they definitely should have been taken away from the public that can be harmed Should people if you're on the NAR will you restore these apostles because they're apostles?

That's wrong you're putting them in a position where they can hurt people again But on the flip side of this if you demonize them what you're doing and this is a this is a conversation for another podcast I won't go too far. We never got to the third key. We're gonna have to be that What do they know? We just need going down these money drills. Yeah, but it's mental health whenever you Whenever you demonize people who do bad things and you you turn them into the devil's god I'm this guy was bad from the beginning all of this stuff you

Make the people lose perspective of mental health issues and then what happens is say one of their children has a mental health issue or they themselves get into a mental health issue well now they're afraid to go get help because I've been demonized I'm doing this thing that I can't control or you got a demon or you got a demon and I won't go too far with that I have a huge problem with it. We'll talk about it in other podcasts of time Thank you for doing this. Hey, by the way, just PS here. Did you see that one of the leaders of the NAR is running forget governor of California?

I did it's unbelievable But what's driving that? Dominionism right. Well, it's just you know, that's God's mandate to us. We're supposed to take over and control everyone You know see and and again again, I got that we could keep talking about but this was another seminal World view shift for me and what I began to realize was is that religion this was years ago Religion religious leaders drive people to conform to the will of God Jesus drew people And it's completely different, right?

Christian institutional religion wants to control everyone and force their behavior Jesus transformed people from the inside out transformation of the soul is the soul of transformation He worked that way and he used water and bread analogies and said you're thirsty. You're hungry. I've come to me Right, he drew people and that's those are two completely different mindsets Right now the dominion guys are trying to drive people yeah We're going to get in control and you're all going to be forced to conform to our will.

Yeah. It's a totally different religion, but anyway, we can talk for two hours, we'll let it go. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. And if you want to read more about Mike Bickle and IHOP-KC, you can read some say they blundered, breaking my decades of silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.

We're going to get in control and you're all going to be forced to conform to our will. We're going to get in control and you're all going to be forced to conform to our will.