Grace for Us, Judgment for You: The Double Standard of the NAR

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer. Jed, the false prophet, the son of a prophet, all of this is it still gets me every time I do it.

I laugh at this to think about having that label. I don't know how you can stand it. I'm glad that I don't have that label but you do my friend. It always leads to interesting conversations whenever I first meet a person because that really is my my background and especially without like if I'm meeting people who have no idea of my background and then they see some of these videos or just Google my name. There are always interesting conversations to be had about like yeah, grew up with a prophet or false prophet you know. It's quite a label my

friend. I'm somewhat joking because I still you know suffer thinking through the fact that my family was behind creating this mess and it's you know and the grand scheme of things which one is worse it's hard to say the the prophet has an unusual label but to be honest everybody in this movement who has risen to some sort of authority has abuse of power and and which leads us to our discussion today on what do you do with that abuse of power yeah you probably haven't seen it but Charles and I have gone through our entire phase two of the

revival history research and I think before this one comes out I think the last one of it is published and then he went back deep into exposing all of the wrongs and injustices and his sect of the cult and I'm I'm like watching it watching it's all unfold and it's just unbelievable they were advocating for the capital punishment of children and covering up sexual abuse all kinds of things that was happening here so I'm watching this unfold and what do you do with this whenever something this bad happens it's awkward when you're in a Christian setting because in Christianity God can forgive you of this so on the one

hand whenever you make this argument there's always this notion that, well, God can forgive them for it, and therefore let's restore them into power and put them back into the same position where they had abused their authority.

And on the other hand, you're thinking, heck no, man, I don't want them back into power to do this thing. So it's gonna make for an interesting discussion. That juxtaposition of having, you said like, within the church, especially within the church, there's God can heal, and there's compassion for people, and there's, people can be restored.

I've experienced, I mean, throughout my life, entirely, but just, especially within these two years, I've experienced so much whiplash from the judgmental nature of the community of the community that I grew up in, and then the non-judgmental nature of the way in which people deal with abuse and everything from pedophilia to child, well, just child sexual abuse in general, and just some of the most horrific things, most blatant atrocities, deception, fraud, corruption, the way that that's handled versus the sort of attitude

of judgment. So what I mean by that is, if you think about the message of the international House of Prayer community, like I legitimately grew up in one of the most judgmental sex of Christianity that exists in the Western world and certainly within the United States right now, and that's not like, I'm not being hyperbolic about that.

If anything, people like Sean Foyte, now there's like, actually hang their hat on this where they probably wouldn't say it the most judgmental, but they have the most restrictions around who gets into heaven, what behaviors you can and cannot do, what is right, what is wrong, what is a lukewarm Christian?

I remember so many different times being told that the Lord will spit the lukewarm Christians out of His mouth, and it's only those who will be on fire for God. So it was this judgmental demanding religion in which everyone outside of our circle was going to go to hell and was going to be tortured for eternity because they did not believe the right things, even people who thought they were Christians.

Like I remember the passage often being used of Jesus. being like, I never knew you, this idea of like even people who think that they're saved are not saved because they didn't actually know Jesus in the right and proper way.

I think that I've mentioned it before on here, but when I was, so this is in 2008 or 2009, there was a tenor at pastor that came to, or a tenor at minister of some sort, who came to the International House of Prayer, and this was right during the same time that there was all of these prophecies about 2015 and solar flares that were going to disrupt all of technology and so how 2015 was going to start the sort of like right before the tribulation, the sort of pre calamities that would precede the tribulation and the resurrection.

It was quite literally supposed to start happening in 2015 and so there already was this spirit of like fear and anxiety because it was like, oh my goodness, this is going to happen, not just like the Lord is returning, but the Lord is returning in just a few years. That's sort of how it was being felt. In 2008, I was 16 years old, 16, 17 years old, so I was a young adult, well, a teenager going into sort of my young adult years, I mean, starting to form my independent life and trying to decide where I was going to go to college, which by the way, this absolutely affected

where I went to college and everything like that. This has had a dramatic effect on my life. But during this period, we had this itinerant minister come in and I remember he gave, he was one of those individuals during this time. There's a lot of people who were traveling around talking about how God took them to hell and how they had hell visitations and they saw what hell was like. I don't know if that's still a thing, I imagine probably still is, but that was a big thing in 2008 for sure. And the sort of late odds was these, all of these different traveling

ministers who had been to hell. And they were all Christian before they had been brought to hell. And so too was this man, like it wasn't like he was unsaved, had never been a Christian and the Lord showed him hell and then he repented. It was he was a Christian.

and he didn't realize that he still was going to hell. This is the narrative, is that he even though being a Christian, and this individual, the reason why he was going to hell that the Lord shared with him was because of masturbation. We had a similar doctrine in Branemism, although I know this wasn't limit to Branemism, it was widespread throughout Pentecostalism and fundamentalist religions.

In fact, I think there may be chick publications about this, but for a long time after leaving, I was still even uncomfortable hearing that word, and it wasn't until I read Dr. Stephen Hassan's book.

I think it was combating cult mind control, but it might have been the other one, freedom of mind. He was talking about how that was used as a manipulation technique for children, and I'd never really thought about that. I had taken health classes in school, biology classes in school, and I knew some of the science and biology reasons, but I had never really recognized the fact that the cults could turn the minds of the children against themselves. That was something that I really had to really work hard at trying to understand. In the end, I put it into the stack

of many, many things and ways in which they manipulated children through fear, and the psychological damage that is done by this is just unbelievable. Especially in these worlds, the doctrine is never super clear. It's very fuzzy, but what was to be inferred from this conversation was that if you are a Christian, but then you are giving yourself over to the lust of the flesh, which in this case meant masturbation, not even having premarital sex, not even just masturbation alone.

That in of itself represented that you were not truly saved, and you did not truly know Jesus. You profess knowing Jesus, but that you did not know that him in your heart, because if you did, you wouldn't be doing these particular behaviors. All of that to say, the world that I grew up and was extremely judgmental, and had this fire and brimstone sort of, if you masturbate, you're going to be tortured for all of eternity, and you better figure it out quickly, because in 2015, the world is going to begin to end, and you are going to be tested whether you're ready or not.

Yeah, that's pretty much what we had, but our version of End of Days was much different, because we were stuck in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, and literally as children, we were reliving the Cold War. So, while we had the same things going through our heads, We were thinking atomic blasts and Russia and what's really sad and scary and interesting all at the same time Now that Russia is finally again flexing their muscles, and it looks very likely that there's going to be some sort of a world conflict all of those same fears that are being indoctrinated into children

When I was a child still happening today those Cold War fears are escalating so the the minds of the children are just I can't even imagine the crushing weight of fear that is in their heads right now and yet Now the same people who preach these messages the same individuals who would get on the pulpit and would preach these sort of Fire and Brimstone messages with such anger and conviction the same people who would talk about the depravity of the American Politics and and the worldly sort of Harlet Babylon spirit that had taken over America are now

when it's in the context of literal pedophiles and literal individuals who are abusing um Vulnerable individuals There is suddenly a message of grace and it's well, let's think about what God is going to do with Mike pickle Exactly the double standards are just unbelievable. It's totally inconsistent and that there's this sort of whiplash of like judgment for The and not for me sort of thing and um It is really difficult and I think too It makes it really difficult even in our jobs now of being like clearly you and I John are interested and invested in

writing some of the wrongs in the world that we both were

Kind of grew up in and that we have studied and that we have spoken about like clearly there's a lot of Uh Passion that we have of of making sure that a lot of the injustice of this world is exposed and dealt with um, but I find it difficult um especially being you know sort of a young man. I mean, I mean my 30s now, but um

For to orient myself around being like well, what it even is the proper pursuit of justice because the the well The way that it was modeled to me is so clearly inconsistent just so abrasively inconsistent of huge and demanding expectations for everyone else and then completely benign Consequences for serious offenses of of what's going on within the community.

So there's a lot of, I've definitely, we've talked about this sort of subject before, but I think it's worth repeating again and getting back into because I think it's just, you know, there's so many different branching ways that we can kind of discuss.

What was wrong with that sort of structure of justice and how do we implement and advocate for justice in a way that is totally different than the way that I, you know, I sort of saw demonstrated.

The irony of the whole subject matter is that the moment in which a person who came from that group, here's the word that you used, that's the end of their listening to this podcast.

That's how ingrained it is, but yet they will allow the leaders to go as far as they have. For me, it's just really a set of double standards. Even the use of the word, I don't know how it was in your sect, even the use of the word in my sect, like there's not a single brand of might that will be listening to me talking at this point because the word was used.

And yet the same kind of thing was happening there. And where it gets really problematic is that the way that it was presented to the children does severe psychological damage to the children. And so the example that I gave earlier where Charles was going after exposing the group that he was in, specifically what they were calling for the execution for is that anyone who did not obey their parents would be executed.

So what this is, obviously no parent is going to do this, but you have a minister who's standing behind the pulpit, scaring the heck out of the children. Yeah, just one day I'm gonna be executed.

I better go home and obey my parents. That's not how you parent your children. That's not how further, that's not how you preach the gospel to people in a church. Simply put, it's not.

But what we have replaced with Christianity really is agenda. We have an agenda of control and manipulation. And the things that you described, the things that Charles has described, I've talked about some of it in the past too.

All of these aren't really doctrines to further the church closer to Jesus. It's literally a doctrine that has an agenda of forcing control. I'm glad that you use the word control too because I've been thinking about what is this justice in this world about?

Like where does it come from and what is it unto? Because if it's unto just, if people like Louis Angle and Sean Foyte and some of these others who have this justice chip who are very outspoken about the...

wrongs, especially when it comes to sexuality and the persecution of children or the abuse of children, like this is, if that's what your sort of message is about, and then you do not speak out against those who are abusing and exploiting children within your own myths, it's like, okay, well, what is this about? Because it isn't about protecting the children anymore.

It isn't about caring about these behaviors because you have way more influence on your own community than you have on other individuals' communities. And like, it takes way more courage to speak about your own community than it does to speak about somebody else's community or the community at, you know, the world at large. And if you're not advocating for these things, if you're not calling out the Mike Biggles, if you're not calling out out, the Bob Hartley's, the Sean Bowles and the others who have clearly used prophecy specifically to abuse

the vulnerable, whether it be children or not. Then you don't really have a just like, it's not coming from place of justice. And I think that this idea, the word control, I was kind of searching for the right word. And I think control is the right word. It's coming from a place of control. It's about, this is how I would like the world to look. Well, that's just it. It is a, if you consider how the group think works, you have a central figure who's pushing the agenda. You have all of the people who are now indoctrinated to believe that agenda. And the way

in which they're manipulated is that it's us versus them. It's the outsiders and we're the insiders, we're the holy ones. However, however, the verbages that they use, but it's always us versus them. The problem is, as time continues, you get constrained in that little box that you're created in and pushed and manipulated in. So the box starts to seem very small. And then you want to change the outside world to fit inside your box. That makes way more sense because then if it's from this place of control, then speaking out against other leaders is not within your

agenda. It's not, it is not beneficial to you because one, you're going to lose a bit of your control because your control has come from this place of like cohesion, leadership, cohesion, where if, if Lewingle undermines the credibility, the credibility of Mike Bickle, then he's undermining his own credibility.

in some ways. And I will say that Lou Engel did like write out a statement that was critical of Mike Pickle. So I am picking on Lou a lot partially because like I grew up with Lou, I grew up with his kids and like this is something, you know, I really believed him for much of my childhood and teenage years.

I really believed his persona of he really wants to write the wrongs that are going on within the world specifically when it comes to like sexual immorality and exploitation of the vulnerable. That was the idea and representation of what I had for him.

And I'm not totally saying that he doesn't have some genuine sense of that, but it clearly is rooted far more in control because as much as he like put out a single statement in that statement, he even starts my friend Mike Pickle and at the very end he talks about the path to restoration.

Like there's no way to talk about criticizing these men without in the same breath talking about restoration. Like it's sort of like, it's like what you're told to do in couples counseling when the stakes are way lower where you shouldn't if you wanna talk about an issue with your partner, you first start with a compliment, you do the compliment sandwich thing of like, well this is what's, you know, you do good.

Here is what I would like improvement on, but then this is where we can go and this is what I appreciate is this idea of just like, oh, I don't wanna ruffle any feathers and I'm saying this a little bit disparagingly, I do think that is a very effective in couples counseling.

It is a terrible way to deal with abuse that has been going on within your community because it's like, no, you need to speak clearly and with your full chest, especially if that's your entire persona about horrific things that are going on within your community.

Like this is not a, let's waffle, let's talk about his path to restoration, let's not talk about him being your friend. This is, let's speak clearly and emphatically about the injustice that was right under your nose and that you missed and you say that you get, you know, you hear from the Lord all the time and for 20, well more than that, 40 years while you were partnering in ministry with this man, you had no idea he was exploiting teenagers.

That's a problem. It is a problem and it's an, interesting one because when these guys have pushed their agendas, often because of the apostolic networks and the new apostolic reformation, one network's agenda is supported by another network's agenda.

But each agenda, each different group has their own central figure that is pushing their agenda forward. And so if you combine those and then suddenly one falls, well, everything that you have said that is supporting your agenda that required the other guy who just fell, all of that is at risk.

So in other words, your agenda becomes at risk. So these guys have to support each other like this. And again, so going back, when it's about control, you don't want to upset the cart.

You don't want to be in a place where you're speaking out against the very men who have validated and given you some of your own power. And so Shalfoy is never going to you talk and be angry about Michael.

There's just never going to be this sort of sense of accountability because again, it's not justice from a place of compassion for the victim, it's justice from the place of control and wanting to have the world look like whatever benefits you the most.

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I am working on, and I'm not certain when I'll actually get this published, but I'm working on digging deeper into the roots of why the latter reign started. Because all of this mess we see, we can all trace it back to the latter reign movement.

And there's this very interesting point in history. I discovered this by accident because I was digging into Smith-Wigglesworth and his connection to doctrinal connection to all of this movement. And I suddenly came across a prophecy.

and I want to flesh out all the details before I give the names here, but I came across a prophecy where in a person prophesied over William Brannum that essentially he was going to be the next Smith-Wigglesworth. And if you put the timeline together, Smith-Wigglesworth died, then suddenly Brannum is everywhere. So this prophecy apparently spread throughout the United States and Canada, and everybody's going to see the new Smith-Wigglesworth, which is really, really interesting, and there were people in Brannum's campaign team that had toured with Smith-Wigglesworth. I mean, this is a big deal. Not long before that happened, however, the person who issued the prophecy,

which was a very esteemed member, high ranking member of a Pentecostal organization, had a scandal where he was groping young women. And the women complained, they wrote to the, I guess, the superintendent. I have to look up the titles here and understand what all these titles mean. But anyway, somebody above him, the women wrote to him, and basically exposed this whole thing. This person was being inappropriate with me, multiple women, not just one. And what happened was the guy admitted to it and then claimed forgiveness with no justice and stayed in the movement, stayed with his title and everything for years and years to come. Well, that guy, if I'm understanding

it correctly, this person, which I'll be publishing this later, but he is responsible for the mess today because he is the one that literally initiated William Brannum into this weird faith healing thing. And yet he had this past, where's the justice for the women? That's one of the problems that we see here. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that this, when you have a victim first, sort of conception of justice, I think that it requires these sort of like, okay, well, no, you don't get to just be restored and keep going. Because who's to say it won't happen again?

And it is incredibly disrespectful and validating to the victims, the women in this scenario, when their stories aren't taken seriously, aren't validated. And so I think of the three women who, I mean, many more than just three women, but the sort of three individuals have come forward with their name being my mother, Tammy and Deborah, who have spoken up against my vehicle. I would I am encouraged by the way some of this has happened because I think this wouldn't have always happened in the past. Like the way that Bob Jones scandal unfolded was much more in this

sort of method and structure of expose it as minimally as possible and then have him restored a year or two later. I believe that although just as I do not believe has been fully served with my vehicle situation because there's a lot of like legal and civil I think that there should be legal and civil consequences and there still is a process to sort of have that happen.

But the arm of justice in this particular case is going to move very slowly and because some of the events transpired several decades ago it is hard to both prove and statue of limitations.

It is going to be hard to get civil or criminal justice in this particular case. However a lot of the advocacy work that has happened including the advocates who were once like Alan Hood and some others who are part of the sort of initial advocacy team supporting Deborah who were once very much in and perpetuating a lot of the cult I grew up in.

I think that there was a change and I really respect that there is sort of positive movement that's being happened where it was much more victim focused than a lot of the attempts in the past where it was about validating these women's stories and in some part you know I wonder if my vehicle had not fought them and had not doubled down and tripled down maybe we would have seen sort of him get away with it or maybe we would have never even known because maybe it would have been like okay he repents and secret and we just don't see him on

the pulpit for three years and then later we find out what happened but because he doubled down it sort of had to become more victim focused because he was revictimizing these victims by reversing doing the whole Darvo denial attack reverse victim and offender thing that still is going on today but anyway all that to say like I know that there has been some sense of progress because these women's stories were heard and validated and they're like especially for Debra and Tammy, like they're best friends now.

And I think that there's something beautiful about that Debra and Tammy. And my mom also, my mom is living in California and it's kind of separated from the situation a lot. But I think that there's this sort of validation of like, this really happened to me.

This shaped who I was, this is affected me. It was wrong. And being able to have that accepted and heard by your community, which it hasn't fully been accepted and heard by the community because there's still people like Mike's little sister who are still trying to paint them as the villains and the victims.

But largely I think that there has been a lot of positive reaction. And so this is when it's victim focused, we can start seeing that like, okay, we're on this progressive path towards justice of these women being able to have their stories validated.

Mike Bickel is, I do not believe that Mike Bickel will ever be able to return to ministry without this hovering over him. He might return to ministry, but I think that this is always, always going to affect him.

And I think that that's good. Like I think that that's a step towards justice. I would love to see civil and criminal justice as well. But like, again, when you're sort of centered in this victim first, understanding our justice, I think that we can start seeing the sort of healthy pursuit of justice.

I think we'll start seeing more and more of this as time goes on. There have been so many people who have hid behind the statue of limitations. And think about this. If you're a cult leader and you have the people manipulated, you do something like this, well, you know you can control them.

And as long as you can control them until the statue of limitations expires, you get off scot free. Now take that problem and amplify it. You have multiple people doing multiple of the same things to other people.

Each one waiting for a statue of limitations to expire, and they keep each other's groups sort of corralled under this indoctrination of fear, so they don't come forward. That's why you hear different cult leaders say it's wrong to accuse the brethren or whatever's the verbiage they use because they too are fighting similar things themselves.

So if you can have multiple people in your network helping fight for you to exceed the duration for the statue of limitations, then everybody gets off scot free. However, there's a growing movement who these people realize that this is not right.

Not only the statue of limitations doesn't really make sense, but it's being you... use specifically to help the people who are empowered as predators to continue doing the same thing. So there's a growing movement to just do it away with it all together. And I've weighed both sides of the argument. I think I'm in favor of just doing away with it because you can't keep letting this happen. You can't keep letting the predators continue to pray upon the people.

So when Bob Jones abused use prophecy to abuse two different women, a mother and a daughter. I've told the story before. I won't tell it again right in this moment. But I mean, really, really horrific and manipulative sexual abuse that was because it was couched in prophecy to make it just all that much more traumatic. When it was addressed, there was sort of a council that was called of ladder rain and new apostolic reformation leaders. Mike Bickle was very much at the head of this. There is even a document that kind of details some of the notes of it. I can find it. I've read it several different times. And I can send

it to you, John. If you'd like to see it, you might have already come across it. But it sort of is in Mike Bickle's own words, sort of his accounts of why it was wrong and what needs to be done to have restoration happen. And the primary thing that Mike Bickle and not the primary exclusive thing that Mike Bickle said was that it was like a sin against God because he was an anointed man. Bob Jones was an anointed man. And he had used that anointing improperly. It's kind of like the Moses, you know, being told to speak to the the rock and and the watershed

verse fourth. I think I'm telling this story right. And instead he strikes them rock with his staff. And it's like the Lord gave you a specific man. You follow the command of the Lord because especially because you are anointed in it. This is not a not a victim first sort of perspective of justice because it doesn't Mike Bickle didn't give two shits about the the women who are abused. It was about the mantle. It was all about the mantle. And in talking about how it was wrong, you are validating the authority of God. It's like, oh, this was wrong because you

were chosen by God, you know, and it's this sort of like backwards compliment of being like, okay, well, God is using you. And it is more about control. It's about, okay, you have this power, you use this power incorrectly, but it's still invested in keeping the power.

So it's like, okay, let's get you on a restoration plan where you then receive the power back. I mean, it immediately focuses on how do we make sure this character of Bob Jones regains his power and authority.

That's all that it's dealing with. It's not dealing with how did you affect these people? It's not calling to question whether we should have ever given this person power to begin with. It's not questioning whether they lie prophetically and are a false prophet.

It's not questioning any of that because if it were, then it would be undermining the control of both that individual and Mike Bickel's entire ministry was validated with the Bob Jones prophetic history. And so if Bob Jones becomes invalid, so does Mike Bickel.

And it's disgusting to read and see how Mike Bickel frames that and know too that during that exact same time, he was abusing women and young girls of teenagers

at that time. And it totally makes sense. I just saw like a week ago, someone posted, I don't know, I can't remember who it was and I didn't recognize the name, but it's some new apostolic minister talked about Mike Bickel and it was like talking about why Mike Bickel had fallen and why it was wrong.

And he was like, he used the words of Bob Jones. He was like if Bob Jones had said that if any minister, anointed by God, he is involved with sexual immorality and invalidates their ministry.

And that is something that Bob Jones had said. And he was like, he said something like the biggest reason Mike Bickel is at fault. And it's like, that's not the biggest reason. It's not because of what Bob Jones said, it's not because of misusing God's mantle or authority.

It's about abusing people. What's wrong is that you harmed people and you used your power to manipulate young women and that will affect them throughout their entire lives. I mean, the victims who are coming forward most vocally are in their 50s and 60s and talking about how this affected their entire life.

And so men and power within this community so quickly dismiss and disconnect from the actual victims. And I think that that's got to be at the heart of this discussion of justice and this clear disparity between justice for the or punishment for the and not for me.

That is clearly at the heart of the new apostolic reformation movement. It gets real interesting when you think about the roles that these people play. We've talked before about how an apostle means nothing like they're using it for in the new apostolic reformation.

An apostle means somebody who has sent out and all of the biblical qualifications of an apostle, none of them have this. In fact, they can't have this. But each one, like I said before, they're all in this network where they're helping each other so that if one falls, they can pick them back up and then forward the agenda.

Keep the agenda moving. And if one falls, they can't let them fall because everything that fell with his part of the agenda could drag the whole agenda down and they just can't have this.

But now think about the structures that are in place. Most of these people use the fivefold ministry. It's a hierarchy of authoritarian control, but whatever is the hierarchy that they use, it's like these pyramids that exist within each group within the network.

The person at the top, the central figure, is generally the one who is falling. So within each pyramid, you have people who are underneath him as, I guess, enforcers. So the rank and file members, they have to be corralled.

They can't think about what's happening. They can't think about the atrocities that are happening. When it goes beyond that, somebody from one of these other authoritarian control structures has to come help. And it's all about keeping the agenda moving.

They cannot let it fall. But yet at the same time, none of this can be found anywhere within the description of the church in the Bible. There are no structures like that. In fact, the only structure that I can even think of like this really is the way that the mob operates.

If you will do whatever I tell you to do or give me whatever money I say to give me, I will let you continue to operate in your syndicate. But we're all cooperating in an organized syndicate.

That's really how this fits. It doesn't fit the biblical model. Yeah, and you have these different families who are, I think, a mob parallel is perfect. And I know I've talked about it before, but I'm going to talk about it again.

Because you were even talking about how the brand, um, we're going to... Those worth dyes and then immediately there's this sort of taking the mantle thing where Wiggles worth dyes and now Brannum is assuming the mantle of Wigglesworth and there also was throughout, I mean all of Pentecostal history, there's been the assuming the mantle of Elijah has been this sort of thing that people have been trying to, I mean there's seven different people who have claimed that they are Elijah reincarnated or the spirit of Elijah is upon them and stuff. I think that this is an under discussed aspect of the New Apostolic Reformation too is

this like vying for the mantle of it and I think it's very, it's like the mob but um with spiritual magic sort of at the heart of it too so that's where I get the Game of Thrones thing too where it's like it feels very um feudal there is this weird magic that is possessing very demonic um spiritual warfare aspect behind it and the moment where I saw this most poignantly before I was even really that critical of the world in general um so this was this was me as a young man who had started to recognize hey things are off I think I was

twenty one or two when this happened but Bob Jones died Bob Jones passes away and we my I travel with my dad I think this is in like 2014 I could be wrong but I travel with my dad to North Carolina where the funeral is happening the memorial service and I'm in the green room of the memorial service first of all the idea that there was a green room for memorial service was like very weird in general and that was the first thing where I was like oh this is what we're treating this man's death as

this weird speaking event and it was very um my dad was very upset that he was not being given opportunity to get up and and speak um and he was talking with uh Bonnie Jones but uh Bob Jones widow about there was this sort of like hey well you know how how can I get on the mic and but she was like doing some of these politics of like well no you know that you were so important you were like son to him and all of this. So she was sort of taking care of him emotionally. And I remember just being

one very frustrated with my dad in that moment because I was like, get it together. But it wasn't just him. It was all of these different egos that were there. And it's Mike Bickle, Bobby Conner, but all of these different people were like kind of had this like, it's important who goes first, who talks where and what at at this man's memorial service. And then there was this big vine within the prophets of who is going to take on the mantle of Bob Jones. And my dad started telling people that Bob Jones was coming and visiting him in the night. And it was like,

someone, I remember someone getting very upset and accusing my dad of necromancy, speaking with the dad and I was like, man, I don't know what the boundaries of this is because they said that they were like necromancy. And I was like, that's ridiculous. And then I was like, well, technically, that is speaking with the dad. But like, we do that all the time. So do we just do necromancy in this world? That was that sort of like feudal magic thing that I was getting at, too, where it was like, this is kind of creepy. This is weird. All of this is weird

and creepy. And because there were all these egos involved and stuff. And it was just this firing for like, okay, this man has had this anointing. And now that he's done dead, there's a vacuum. And there is sort of like who will take on the mantle and who will take on his power. And for like, I think for like a year or two, my dad really was like stepping in the Bob Jones mantle. That's when he became very prominent in Bethel. And then very quickly after there was he had a quick, he had a quick rise of power and a quick descent out of power

because of all sorts of reasons. But that I remember that just being so clearly like

the magician's mob was was very much the vibe of that moment. And it's of course, there's, you know, no discussion of how Bob Jones had fallen. There was no discussion of anything, which I don't know, it was this funeral I understand that to some extent, people don't like speaking ill of the dead. But at the same time, it was just so clearly toxic and corrupt.

And if people just had any idea how much this world, the leadership in the New Apostolic Reformation world is about control and power and exclusively about control and power, I don't understand how it's still, how any of these ministries are still viable.

Like, I don't understand why people go to it anymore. Because I mean, I guess that I guess a lot of people are deceived and don't see this, or a lot of people want to find a measure of control themselves. And so it doesn't matter because they're like, well, I want to be a part of the mob. So this is great. But people who are genuinely a part of it as as a sort of like a progressing the gospel, that's not the agenda of this world. But it just explicitly is not the agenda of that world. It's not about

compassion. It's not about helping the poor. It's not about the widow and the orphan. It's not about even sharing the gospel and sharing the good news of Jesus. It isn't even about healing people. It's about power and control and profit. And so when we talk about bringing it back to justice, when these people, when it looks like they're speaking out against the injustice of the world, it's only the injustice of the world that it is profitable for them to speak out against.

That's the only injustice they're concerned with is the injustice of the world externally because that talking about things that people hate and is a very easy way to make a lot of money and gain a lot of attention. It's just being like, oh, look at this. Look at these people who are doing this activity. Oh my goodness, how horrible and awful is this? It's so easy to make money that way and to gain power and to make it seem like you're brave and courageous. That's the this is the last thing I'll say. Obviously, I've been going on a tangent. But I pick on Sean

Foy a lot in this. He is often the person who I criticize because he is so obviously phony to me and in a way that is like so one annoying but also beyond that, just like corrupt, where he really presents himself as he is doing something courageous. Like he really presents as he is a pioneer fighting against the injustice of the world and who is bringing clarity and

justice and righteousness to the world, and he does not have the courage to even speak against the literal pedophiles within his own community. Like that to pretend that you are some courageous crusader, when in reality, he would never threaten his own power and authority. And I think that's absolutely disgusting. And because, you know, I feel like I have had to actually lose things by speaking up against the injustice that I've seen. Like I actually, it is not profited me at all throughout all of this. And so I feel like I have some foot to stand on

and criticizing him. And I would say that to his face. So if anyone knows him, you know, you can tell him that Jets said that directly. But yeah, yeah, it just is so, it's so disgustingly corrupt and so clearly rooted in control instead of compassion. And that has to change.

And I'll keep talking until it does not. I'll stop talking now. But we might be talking a long time. Yeah, there's it anger's me. I can tell that you're clearly upset by this. And I am too. It's just one of those things that the problem has became so vastly widespread. And the people are under such control and manipulation that they're actually enabling the predators. And how do you stop the wave of people? That's really the problem here. It isn't so much the predators who are in power. Those aren't the people to fear. It's actually the people below them or the ones to fear. How do you stop that wave of people? So

anyway, we could probably talk for an hour about this and still get nowhere. But at least we've invented. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. And I do think that this important thing of being compassion and victim first when dealing with justice, I think slowly but surely, I think that there is a shift that's happening at least with the community that I was raised and that people are starting to understand that. And I think that there is, we are not just shouting into the void.

And we are not alone. Obviously, you and I are not the only people speaking out against this. And so as much as, of course, I am upset and frustrated by the state of the world and state of the New Apostolic Reformation world, I do think that this victim first view of compassion is probably the most salient way to attack and dismantle the structures of power and control.

that I've been established. Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed a show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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