Little Gods and Big Control - Escape From NAR Authoritarianism

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org and with me I have my very special guest, Joey Ebblin, form a member of the NAR.

Joey, it's good to have you on and to share your story. I'm getting so many people contacting me about the new Apostolic Reformation. In fact, I want to say the last two or three interviews that I've done have been out of people who have come in some way connected to the NAR and then I had this one guy who had no idea what it was but yet was probably in it which was kind of a funny side story but it's this big spider web of mass and hopefully by sharing your story we can untangle that mass. So maybe if you could start by just telling

everybody a little bit about yourself. Well, first John, I just want you to know that I appreciate and I know that everything is about Jesus and His glory and that's why we do the things that we do but I just want to say thank you because when you leave a church and you leave something like the NAR and I know you are very aware of this but you really have to work through things you know and that's kind of my goal here today is not really to turn it into a bash session about you know my former pastor and the control issues and

things like that but really to warn people about the spiritual abuse and try to awaken them or stop them from getting into the dangers of it you know so I just want to say thank you because I have a lot of friends who are working through what they thought they believed in summer in church and summer out of church right now you know so and I know you've probably gotten that a lot but it really does mean something you know so keep up to good work. Well thank you it is a tough journey I remember the first weeks of that I thought my life had

ended I couldn't eat I couldn't sleep all I could think about was how how could I how could I've been so wrong but how could the leadership have covered up so much of this from me and for me it was a a bit more difficult and some because my family was part of this and you know I had I had the added complexities of knowing that family members were purposefully deceiving people and that that's ball of worms. It's really difficult. Yeah, it is a difficult journey and I don't blame people whenever they just walk away for a while. You have to walk away at some point. I tried to fight

it myself. I tried to just hang on to everything and try to say, well, there must be some part of this that was real. I'm just going to hang on to what I can and just take little pieces off the top. But what you realize over time is it's the foundation that's wrong and until you just clean your slate, you really are sticking to the same things in the same belief set. So it is quite a journey. Yeah. So unlike you were saying, my name is Joey Ebbwin. It's fine. I'm 41 years old. I'm married. I have four kids. We live in a small town in southern Illinois. My wife and I both actually

went to what I would consider a conservative Bible college and not really a school of ministry because they're different. They really are vastly different. I went to a St. Louis Christian College, which was the Stone Campbell movement, right? The Christian Church, the Church of Christ.

And it took me five years to graduate Bible college and took my wife four. I always say she's smarter than I am because it's true. But I wouldn't have traded that for anything in the world.

The foundations that they taught, the hermeneutical principles, the good, godly men and examples. I mean, these are professors who don't have a lot of money, been married to one woman their entire life, have sewed into all the local churches, sewed into the Bible colleges. It was more valuable than gold. Let's put it that way. Which is actually kind of crazy because I got saved at 21 at a small country Christian church and in February of 2005.

And I remember saying they're going, man, I just feel like I've got to go somewhere. Like, I don't know what it is. And then I heard St. Louis Christian College and it was like, I knew that I knew that that was the place, you know. And so I went there in August. So I got saved in February, when August, I didn't know anything because I wasn't raised in the church. I mean, I had good parents who did the absolute best that they could do, you know. But wasn't not raised in the church. And I remember going there and they gave us like this all encompassing

test over the Bible. And I did, I probably got, I mean, I was lucky. I probably got 10 out of 200 questions right. I knew nothing, you know. But by the time I was a senior, I felt like I smoked it, you know. And so, but in Bible college, that's actually when my wife and I turned charismatic, you know, which I find really unique and to the I would say the benefit or want to give one of the

the president of the college is due because he actually set me down, he warned me about the charismatic movement really about the moral failures, really the moral failures mostly centered around sexual morality. But what really started my journey was I had a friend who started going to a charismatic church and he had given me a couple CDs of these preachers and they started talking about all of the supernatural. And I remember thinking if that's real, like if that is real, I want it, you know, because our college did not talk against it, it just didn't

talk about it, right? They did a very good job of helping you build your own foundation, according to the scripture. But I went all in, unfortunately, you know, I listened to every sermon that you could get your hands on, I did every studying the Bible I could do. And basically got to a point that I just believe that I believe that I would believe and no one could talk me out of it that the fact that the gifts of the spirit were here today and not only here today, but vitally important. And I think that's probably one of the biggest changes that I've had now

because I still believe in God's supernatural working power. I just will never ever be a part of a place that has set a primary focus on them. I just had this conversation not an hour ago with somebody else. Part of the reason why I haven't really picked a side, I know people want me to, and they often mention the comments, but I don't pick the side between cessationists or continuous because I have experienced things that cannot be explained and I understand that.

However, I loosely use the phrase which I made up, I just pulled out of a hat while I was talking one day, skepticismist or something like this because I'm skeptical of the fraud. I'm skeptical of the trickery. I have seen things. I have friends that just, you know, we've had interactions that I know that there was something more that doesn't make sense to the human mind. I fully get this.

So I'm not going to denounce the whole thing, but whenever I see people using parlor tricks to do the same thing, and the comment I made earlier, which I think it was on a podcast, so I think it will be, it's worthy of mentioning again, when you really have something like this, you don't want to flaunt it. You're actually, especially if you have the gift of, like, they call it an article, that you could peer into the very soul of the person you're talking to.

Well, if you really had this, people were just freaked out when they can do something like this. It's not something that you just brag about. It's something that you really don't want it. Why would I want to know the inner secrets of your heart and scare me to death?

So when I want to see all of these people doing it, it becomes a little bit laughable when you understand how it all works. So I don't ridicule it, but at the same time, I have seen things and I understand that there's a lot more going on in this world than me to the eye. Right. It's like I always just want to leave room for God to do something, you know, but it's just not the primary focus. The primary focus is growing into the image of Jesus and sharing the gospel and growing in maturity and being there for one another, you know, and living

a life of humility, right? So we had left Bible college and went to this charismatic church, and we loved it. And we thought we were going to live and die there. And we loved everybody.

We loved the pastor. And what had happened is the pastor had a moral failure with the worship leader, and it was a small church, and it just devastated everybody there. I mean, there's still some people there who I think have never come back to the faith because of it. And so my wife and I were in a dilemma because we decided that we needed to leave the church, but we're not the kind of people that just set out, right? Like we knew that going to church was essential. And so we never missed a single church service, but we just didn't have a home. And so after about six months, maybe

we just decided, hey, listen, we got to pick a church. And we need to go there every time the doors are open because that's the only time we're going to actually meet the people, get to know them and really learn about the church. And so there was this church that was close to us that used to do things with our first church out of college. And so we started going to it, right? New everybody had a good relationship. And then so eventually, like I said, we just any time the doors are open, we were there. And it became our home church. We had no idea that the new apostolic

reformation even existed, you know, and it really wasn't even until three, four years ago that I actually heard it come out of the pastor's mouth. But the pastor, you know, would always say that he has had an apostolic gifting, you know, and I always struggled with, and I've listened to your podcast about this, you know, and so it has me thinking, because I do struggle with the fact of, you know, I think we all are okay with the evangelist, the pastor, and the teacher, but that profit and the Apostle just, you know, but I'm like, right, and it's like, and my will

to do away with all of them or why am I okay with three and not two you know it's just that whole thing and it's okay if I don't know right that's the beauty of God but I always kind of looked at the apostle as this there was obviously no one will ever be like the 12 right and no one will ever have that kind of authority but it was more the church planting gift you know and so that's kind I was okay with it and it's so thankful for what Bible College did teach me

but over time you know because we were in there for like 10 years and I didn't become an elder until I don't know probably three or four years before we left and then I really got to see what the NAR really was about and I tell you it wasn't until you started teaching about Christ for the nations I'm like is there a handbook for this kind of stuff you know like I am serious like I had to I'm like then I finally figured it out this is what these people are taught I mean and you said it the other day in a podcast that you had released about it's like they all had this

like Moses mandate on their life it's like they all want I've been saying this actually for about a year and I heard you say it and I thought exactly it's like they want the everything under the Old Testament where it's like it's all about the one man but they want it like under the new covenant and it's like it's not you know I mean it's just crazy and it's all about like their call and their gifting and there's really no room for anyone else you know um that we began to see that um and it really didn't set very well with this but when you're so sucked into the people

and the pressure and that's what is kind of embarrassing it's like knowing some of this stuff was going on why did we stay so long you know we had family members in it and um you know like

like uh like one of the things that we saw was the financial accountability um so we used to get and it took several years to where this actually started happening but we would get a monthly report okay and it was in quickin or quick base or it'd be quickin and um it was just hard to understand like like there was no there was nothing inside of me that was like oh I think there's frog going on it was like I just don't understand this like the way it's broken up just doesn't make any sense so I call the the secretary and I say hey can you just send me um like the full

full expense report like none of this you know I don't want it broke I want to just the fullness of it all uh and again not to dig for anything that was wrong just because I couldn't understand it and so she calls the and he says absolutely not, right?

And if he has a question about the finances, he can ask me and I'm like, what? That doesn't make any sense, because my heart behind it was not, but what it tells me is things going on inside of him.

And so the next Sunday at church, we had a meeting before the service and it was just like, listen, we're shutting off all reports. If you've got a question about finances, you can ask me and my question to you is, what are you even doing here if you don't trust me?

I mean, it's just mind-boggling. That's unbelievable. I, you know, whenever somebody asks like that, it's like an invitation to figure out, okay, what are you hiding, buddy? And I think legally they have an obligation.

They have to be transparent about the reports if you ask them. And I know that you can go through the IRS and you can get many of the reports if they're holding their non-profit status.

But yeah, they, I was shocked. The first time that I went to a non-cult church that had very strict policies on, we must be transparent. And they handed me the financial report and it was clear, concise, right down to, this is how much we spend on toilet paper.

I started, I'll never forget I was in the business meeting and I was looking through this, I started laughing. I don't know if people are watching me, but right down the toilet paper, you got to be kidding me.

We had, at the cult church, they, I think they only gave just the overall number and that was it. Here's what we spent. All right, yeah. What are you spending it on? You know, when I come to find out later, there's a whole lot of issues with even that.

So whenever they're not transparent, there's a problem here, definitely. Right, right. And you know, the church we're at now, like I, I love it. And so our children's church, and I'm not very good at judging the size of church.

I never have been. That's just something that I don't even really think about. So if any of you guys watch it and I think the church is like 150 people and you say, oh, no, Joe, it's like 200 people.

That's just my bad, you know? But the children's church, they might, four children bring in pennies and quarters and dimes and, you know, dollar bills and they have it marked down every single penny that my four kids bring in and they are four years old to 10 years old, just the transparency, you know?

And that level of excellence, honestly, to track down pennies, you know? But I'm just like, it just speaks volumes to when people don't have an agenda and aren't trying to build their own thing.

Mm-hmm. Well, and the transparency, so you mentioned that nobody wants the apostle or prophet after you've been burned. Well, the transparency helps you prevent being burned. If you're very open about it, people, that's how you get people to trust you.

You don't say that forcibly you must trust me, right? Or get out of here. Obviously, that's not going to work, but the so the five-fold ministry mentioned in Ephesians I actually don't even have a problem with this. I've I don't know if I've mentioned I think I guess I've mentioned on the podcast, but I have a great-grandmother who was apparently a prophetess and apparently had some backier prophecies So and this is coming from family. I wasn't there so I can't back in you this up But I have no reason not to think that they still exist

But the way that the movement has shaped it where it is in a authoritarian structure. That's the thing I have a problem with There is no hierarchy in this. There's Jesus and everybody else if you read the Bible So whenever they create a hierarchy, they're hiding something and then when they hide the When they're not transparent with the finances, you can tell they're clearly hiding something. What is it?

Yeah, and you know, and that's the thing most of the people are in congregation and none of the eldership at that time would have ever thought that any Anything wrong was going on You know, like I said my little ask was because I couldn't make sense of the report You know because it is my job to oversee things, you know, and I think that that was one of the biggest issues that the you know Apostle Had with me because like I wasn't saved there. I came from Really I got saved and went to Bible college for five years and it was just like I knew the responsibility of an elder and I

Just spent like two years being so worried about how I would be judged by the Lord Concerning the things that I believe that he put me over in that position You know, and that was one of the main reasons why we had to believe well No, it was one of the the stackable reasons was because it was just I was just worried about that knowing that certain things were going on But yet had no control because really you can say well you were an elder will listen no one's really an elder when it in a place like this

Like you have there's zero control. Yeah, the elders are basically the enforcers in that type of movement Yeah, you know, and so but I was just so worried about that, you know, like just the finances And finances is just one aspect of it, you know, like The covering up of sin. We had no clue just the depths of sin that was covered up, you know in his family internally really I'm not really here to Talk about, you know that kind of stuff But I know that it that is a part of that the NAR, you know, it's like protecting people for what?

their platform You know, like and like we just couldn't be a part of that like we just we couldn't and I think one of the things that Not really bad was The outburst and the anger and the meetings the yelling, you know, and just that like, forcible control.

I just remember sitting there thinking like, wow, just like absolute, like disregard for scripture. The cussing, I know that there was alcohol and stuff like that happening, but I didn't find that out until later.

Cause obviously, one of the couples had said to us who had left, we said, we always wondered why you guys never hung out with the pastor and his wife. And this is what they said, oh, it's because you guys didn't drink. And it was like, you know, all that's afterwards, you know, just so hidden and isolated, you know, but just that kind of stuff was just couldn't, we just weren't okay with it, you know, yeah, I grew up being in the upper tier, not the down to the rank and fire. I would, I would have been, my family would have been the

enforcer level because of my grandfather. And I knew the leaders and elders that were drinking, and we're in a religion that's telling you that if you're drinking, you're going straight to hell. I knew which ones were doing it and which ones weren't. And I interestingly, while I was in it, I really didn't have a problem with that so much if they didn't get drunk, because I did read my Bible. And I knew, I knew what the Bible said about it. But I knew the ones that were doing it. The problem that I did have was I, one of

the, one of the people that was involved was in a leadership capacity, and they were preaching to other people against them doing it. And when you set up that double, double standard, I don't even know how you could inwardly do this and be in sleep at night. How could you sleep at night knowing that you're doing the very thing you're condemning somebody else for? And I became aware after leaving not just because of that reason, but many other things similar to this. It's more about the image than it is actually even the religion. It's more about the image than it is even Christianity, because they

don't care as long as they maintain the image. And every single guest that I have on, no matter who they are, no matter which group that has sprung off of this, they all have that same theme. They were trying to uphold an image. They're trying to be better than a human can possibly be, because humans, by nature, humans have problems. And human problems are getting in the way of maintaining this image. Oh, absolutely. And you really do see it. And it's sad. You know, it's kind of like, what good is it to gain the world, but to lose your

soul, you know? Yeah. And it was so. I was listening to one of your podcasts about the manifest sons of God, you know, and it's like the preaching just began to just get so loose with the word. And I remember setting there, even when we first started going, and I was like, how can I can't understand these sermons?

You know what I mean? It's like, am I the only one in the room who is struggling to like understand the sermon and is it above me? Am I not spiritual enough? Am I not charismatic enough to understand like what they're talking about? You know, like, I'm not dumb, but it's just like, it's a whole other level. Like, you know, I'm talking about. Yeah. Sometimes I go back and forth on this. Sometimes I think, because I have studied how mind control works and how manipulation works. Sometimes I think that they spout off just insane doctrines because

if you can confuse the mind, you can control the mind. That's one of the techniques. As you throw the mind off guard, while the mind is racing to figure out what it is they're saying, well, then you say all of the stuff that you want to plan in the head and it's a tool.

It's a technique. But on the other hand, I know some of the people doing this kind of thing and they truly believe the nonsense that's coming out of their mouth, but it is truly nonsense. The thing that I don't know that I've mentioned this before, but the funny part of this is, I know people who, if you know the people themselves, they, I hate to, I'm going to tread very carefully here because I don't want to speak evil of people, but I know people who have mental issues. I'll just say it like that. There are mental issues

and they're in a capacity of leadership and anybody who personally knows the people involved, they know that they have mental issues. I think the word nutcase was used at one time. So you know the people, they have issues. Well, once they start preaching and get into the spirit and all of the stuff, some of those mental issues are coming out.

And if you know the person and the way they talk, the way they think, you're hearing the mental issues, but the people who aren't familiar with them, they think that this is some new thing and oh, I can't even understand it. Oh, my gosh, what is this? And the really hearing mental problems coming out of the mouth, right? So the interesting part of all of this is in this type of movement, because of the way that the foundation has been laid, there are people who actually believe that this nutcase type speech is actually coming from God. And they want it more than they want thoughts that are organized in a

way that you can understand it. Oh, yeah. And I mean, it just speaks like the whole, with the Lord God told me, God told me, God told me. And it leaves, it leaves you powerless to defend it, right? I mean, and that's one of the biggest issues, I think, because it's just like, all of it was like that. It was like, you know, for one week, we're going in one direction for a month later, we're going in another direction. It's like really whatever book you're reading, because you're not really reading the Bible, you're just reading books, you know, and I remember in Bible college, this is what they told us, they

said, if you want bad theology, right, read books. And yeah, right, like books are valuable. My wife's actually written two books, you know, so like we're pro books. books. I've got a lot of books, but it's true. The Bible needs to be the main resource that you're using. In fact, I remember one time, I was in, I think it was Romans in college, and I raised my hand, I asked this question, I said, so I was reading this book, and then the doctors, professors said, that's your problem, brother, read the Bible. And I know he was

just, you know, you build a good relationship with these people. And I know he was just messing with me, but I know he meant it. And I will have never forget, have forgotten that ever, you know, and this is something else he always told us, always be reading the Gospels, you know, and like those two things, like have stuck with me in my wife, you know, and it's like, so if you want bath theology, read books, you know, and that's actually, so after several years of sitting there to listening to these things and not truly understanding them, I started going, this just doesn't make any sense.

And so I would get my phone out and I would type in a sentence that he had said, and then I would literally find the blog or the book online. And I had to quit doing this because it was like every week and it wasn't just a little, it was almost the entire message, you know, and I don't have a problem with using other people's material, but you need to cite them and source them and give them credit, you know, but it was no credit. Like even things like, I mean, I'm sitting here reading the

passage or reading the blog on my phone and it'll be, and then the Lord took me to this scripture, and I'm like, that is not true. It's literally right here, like the full bone lies, you know, and it was like you're a fraud. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top, and as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. You know, acknowledges power, not just powerful in the way that that phrase is intended, but powerful for yourself. I've mentioned this in the podcast. I was in a

study group and you know when you mentioned the book it made me think of it because I think there was a some book involved on the consequences of anger or something like this but I mean this men's group anyway in the the leader of the men's group is saying that how how much of a sin it is to get angry and he goes off in this tangent and I just like literally had a few months prior to this escape to cult that was having emotional control behavioral control all of the bite model and I'm sitting here thinking oh my gosh what have I stepped into you can't do this and I actually believe

it or not I'm a little outspoken and right there in the men's group I broke the silence and I said but Paul said in your anger do not sin and actually got called out after after the men's group and was scolded pretty harshly for this and I said look man I can't I can't really say what you're saying is correct or not but I know what Paul said it's not it doesn't match man it doesn't match and I I look back on that not because of the interaction it was an unhealthy interaction afterwards but I look back on this because I knew what it said and I knew and could hear the

difference between what he was saying and what the Bible was saying so I knew the knowledge was powerful for me and I can't be deceived in that area because I already know you're not going to toy with my emotions it's not gonna work there are many people who've never even read the Bible who are Christian and this boggles my mind if you're Christian why would you not read the book who is describing your religion right right the book that was supposed to be given to you to empower you like this yeah I totally agree well because you know one of the other things with the NAR is

everything's the religious spirit you know if that's the religious spirit that's the religious spirit and and I think it was one of the ladies you had on one time and she was talking I think it was maybe it was a comment but like I really believe that the NAR is the thing that actually brings spiritual bondage you know and it's all about freedom and that's the religious spirit but it's it's driven out of so much hate and anger and I used to preach that all the time that Jesus could have these big confrontations but he never hated them in his heart you know and it's like

it's just so I don't know I just think about how many times this just well that's just religion well that's just religion that's just religion well I'm like let me tell you something James tells you you better get some religion you know you better show up to church you better read your Bible you better be mindful of the widows in the orphans you know like I always say our problem is we just haven't seen pure religion right like you know but Christianity is religion and you know just the NAR just attack well that's just religion that's just religion get that religion

off you and I'm like read your Bible you know like read it you know but so like I would set there and I would I just I just had to with following the sermon is my phone because it just, it wasn't doing my heart good, right?

So I knew, I found out what I knew. I found out why these sermons sounded like the way they sounded because they weren't from him at all, you know? And then I just started hearing this doctor and I remember one time he said, I don't remember what he was talking about but he said, little gods.

Oh wow. I know, right? I know, I know you know I'm talking about, right? So I'm like, but like that good person inside of me, you know, the Christian person is going, surely that's not what he means.

Like, you know, I went to Bible college, I'm a critical thinker, you know? And I'm like, maybe he means the fact that the only way we would actually be like God is the fact that we are now righteous because of what he did.

And no, that's not what he meant, you know? But when everyone in that congregation, like, it's just, I never want to beat myself up for believing the best in me, but like, there comes a time where you have to really say, you know what?

Like, if they're saying this stuff, they mean it, you know? And I think that's like one of the biggest traps, like I had to finally realize like, no, no, like quit making excuses for them because you're a good person, right?

Or you don't think they're off that much. No, they really are meaning what they're saying, which is mind-boggling to say, little gods, you know? You know, Paul said in your anger, do not sin, but Jesus said, to love your enemies.

And this really hit me hard after I left because not only was this a foreign idea in the movement, people took it a step further. It wasn't just their enemies that they hated, but they hated anybody who disagreed with their doctrine, theology, the spiritual world that they're proclaiming.

If you disagree with the five-fold ministry, they were literally bringing down curses upon your head. And if you ever walk away from it, they will especially bring down curses upon your head. Jesus said, love your enemy, this is not the way of a Christian.

It took me a long time to understand that it really wasn't a Christian religion at all. It was just a framework that you could enable people to take control over other people. And yes, they used the name Jesus in their speeches, but that's all they were.

They were speeches, and they really had nothing to do with learning how to love your enemy, how to show the actual fruits of the spirit, how to show the peace, love, and, you know.

So once I began to understand this, and I started reading the Bible over and over and over again, it really changed the way that I looked at all of it because I don't know how you feel.

I know that some people, when they first leave in their journey, they kind of get angry at the people that they left because there was such a harsh reaction when they left. I felt that I was I was mad at the world man because not only was I angry because they shunned me in all of this but worse they had deceived me and 37 years of my life I thought was wasted.

But I've come to learn it really wasn't a waste. It was me learning all of the things that I know now that I hold dear. I learned some solid things in this that you can learn from even in the type of religion.

But you have to learn the difference between what it is and what Christianity was. So I spent the next several years just trying to understand the variance. Here's what I was taught. Here's what the Bible said.

What is this in between and why are they walking this in between? What is this variance? And interestingly if you open that door then the world of all of this new apostolic reformation just kind of unfolds because in the variance here is the foundation that was laid for this other one and they built upon that variance and they created their own each time getting further and further and further away from the Bible and oddly into mysticism and spiritualism.

So I began to wonder okay this wasn't Christianity what is it and now it's heading toward spiritualism. If I contract that movement in that direction is it is it something evil what is this mass and I don't know how you feel but I I struggle with that quite a bit after I left.

Oh yeah I mean so when we had left that first church we knew like we had already went through it once right and we had survived and so we when we finally made the decision to leave we knew that no one would talk to us we would lose all friends but so we knew that going in but we needed our children to understand that Jesus was worth it right no matter what.

And so like we were just like we've been here before right our faith has been tested like he is worth it no matter what and we knew that like taking the stance so our children would know that he was worth it was more beneficial and not only that we could not let our kids think that this is what normal Christianity looks like you know and so when we left like we had a plan it was you know read the Bible every day together as a family which we've been doing that for years anyway and it was get plugged into a church as fine a church until you get a home

church you know just don't miss and then also keep your mouth shut like like you know we knew that we would be the bad guys it's not church discipline they're walking out it's anyone who leaves they are the bad guy you know and it's and it's really how they how you treated the pastor you know it's the someone's mind boggling it's like all about him so we knew that going in that we would lose fellowship with everybody you know and they and within about a month seven other families. I didn't think it was seven families. Five to seven left. And we didn't even tell

them the story, you know, because we weren't going to be like that. We weren't trying to so division. We just knew that this wasn't for us and for our household. And we have friends. There's a friend of ours who she's still, she's even said like, that was a waste. Like so when you were saying that, I was like, and so like, that's just what we've been praying for her is to like, it wasn't a waste, you know, like you need to see how this is all connected, you know, like you're saying. But it did like as much as I'd like to pretend like that pastor doesn't take up real estate in my mind, he does.

And I hate that. And it bothers me. And I want to have a heart posture that he repents. And he, you know, is found faithful on the day of the Lord's coming or at his death. But it's like there's just some real estate in my mind that he takes up because you don't even know your inspirational abuse. Like you don't even know it, you know. And so yeah, we've had a lot to deal with, you know, with that. But we also knew that like he's worth it. And I think going through it the first time

really helped a lot, you know what I mean? Yeah, the spiritual abuse and the spiritual trauma is something that's really hard to work through. When children are abused and traumatized after they become an adult and they start going into counseling and therapy, the first thing that they will do is talk about all of the negative things that happen between them and whoever was the abuser. And it's really difficult. It's a touchy situation because you don't want them to sympathize too much with the abuser so much that they form this weird relationship. But you also want them to

understand that the people who are doing this to you, they're also human. They're also people. And there were good times. And so a lot of times counselors will have you focus on, okay, what we know the bad memories, what are the happy memories? What happened that you can relate to that you did enjoy? And it kind of lifts you out of that depression because you're thinking of things and memories that you hold dear. It was really hard for me to do this. After I left, my whole family cut me off. I had a few family members escape with me, but for the majority of my

family cut me off. And I all I could think about were the things that they said right whenever I left. And anytime they come up in conversation or if I saw them whenever I was out on the town, that's what I thought about. What they said to me when I left and the aftermath. It took me years before I started to understand. I need to think about the memories that I did enjoy with them.

And I had a lot of them. I had a, I had really good memories. It wasn't until I discovered that most of the things that were being taught weren't true. And I started realizing that I'm in this world of deception. I have to leave. That's when it got difficult for me. So I had all of these but memories and then bam, just right out on the street that we don't want you anymore because you don't believe our fiction that we're telling you.

Yeah, yeah. Like I said, when I first, when we first started about like I really do think that that's part of your ministry is to help people work through things, you know, because we don't want them to leave the faith.

Like that's the absolute worst case scenario because Jesus is real, you know, like He is the rock and the things that you know to be true according to the scripture are true, you know, and I think that's one of the driving forces is for me to desire

that people would not would leave an NAR or never be involved in one is because of the spiritual abuse because not all of the teaching is wrong. Like there are good Christian people and you can get saved in an NAR church.

I mean, you know what I mean? But it's the spiritual abuse that happens to some that derails them for eternity. Like that's what is the most dangerous part to me. And honestly, you know, if their biblical teaching is strained right now, where's it gonna be in 15, 20 years?

And so that's the other dangerous part, you know, and I believe in safety. Like nowhere in the Bible do I see the cutting edge, you know, what I see is hold fast to the things that you were taught, you know, like, and so like that's, you know, like honestly, like that's one of the dangers because I know you can get saved in an NAR church.

I know you can't and I know all of it's not wrong, but it's just the spiritual abuse that goes on and then on and then if you were to have any real issues and then come under that authoritarianism and just get, I mean, yeah, it's just that spiritual abuse that worries me that that causes people to leave the faith, you know, and that's why I think it's so dangerous.

And it gives the whole religion a bad name. I was having this conversation with Bob. There comes a point when you understand how all of this works and how influential all of these people are and yet many of them are predators, many of them, most of them in these type of groups are having some sort of abuse in their church, at minimum spiritual abuse, you know, and so they branded themselves with this image.

Whenever people who've never been in contact with any of this ask you, what is your faith and you tell them your Christian? There's a point where it's in the back of your mind you're thinking, I'm a little bit embarrassed to even say that because in their image of Christianity, they're seeing all of the news, they're seeing the sexual predators, they're seeing the spiritual abusers, the all of these things.

And when you say that word, now it actually doesn't mean what it used to mean even 20, 30 years ago. All of this is being exposed, it's coming to light. And it's embarrassing because you don't want to use that word and brand yourself with this, but yet at the same time, how do you do it?

I was having a... I had a conversation with a minister who has nothing to do with any of this that we're talking about, and I was explaining to him just what we talked about in Moore, and he says, I just tell people I'm a follower of Jesus.

He said, I don't even, as a Christian pastor, I don't even use the word Christian anymore. I just say, I'm a follower of Jesus, and that labels you differently than being branded in this weird world that we're in.

The more I thought about it, the more I'm just shocked that we, as an American nation and now across the world, have allowed Christianity to become this thing that doesn't even resemble Christianity so much so that it's embarrassing.

Yeah, it really is something that you have to fight against all of the stuff. In fact, I was having a conversation at work the other day about that, about sin being ran rapid and being it let to run rapid, and I'm like, that's not always the case, because really what I do is I go back to the scripture, and I use the Corinthian brother as an example when Paul says, hey, I'm more like, just because people are doing it wrong doesn't mean that it's not addressed in the Bible, and one of the things that I wanted to bring up

was, and I'm sure you probably are aware, but like the passion translation, you know much about the passion. Some, I've studied a little bit, but not in depth. Yeah, so I say that the passion translation is the NAR Bible, and John Bevere's bake for Satan, Bate of Satan is their handbook, you know? Are you familiar with it?

No. Yeah, so it's really all about being what happens when you're offended and working through forgiveness, and so it's just like anything else in this movement. Some of it is good, but it begins to teach that when you're offended, you don't even know you're offended, right?

So it leaves you powerless to the authority of the church, and it was anytime we had a small exodus of people leave the church, you could almost just bet that we were about to do a Bible study through the Bate of Satan, and it was truly all centered on they don't even know they're offended, you know? And it's like, man, this just robs people. Like you know, like I have the Holy Spirit inside of me, I am working towards sanctification and holiness. I might not know I'm offended at first, but it doesn't take very long for the Lord to show me truth that I am offended. Like you

can't just say like only the apostle or the leadership of your church can tell you you're offended because you don't think you're offended, even though you are offended. It's such a spiritual abuse, you know, it's a trap, but there's positives in it, but man, it just leaves you powerless. Like you can't leave a church unless it's a, it was a good leaving, you know, and you've been sent off, and it's like, that's not true. You know, like I'm just supposed to sit here underneath this, because you think you have some love.

what authority over me like, you know? And that's why I answered the way I did on the passion translation. It's, as I understand it, this is coming from a person who has no expertise in biblical language at all, and is translating the Bible in his own way and using some spiritual mumbo jumbo to say God spoke to me and here's a Bible.

That's the mentality of the people who are in this type of movement. And sadly, people will buy it, knowing that he's not a translator. I don't know. I did not read much because when I learned that, I'm like, yeah, I don't, nothing to do with this.

But I think he might have even put that into the preface, if I remember right, I could be wrong about that. At minimum, it's out there, and if you study, it's out there. But the fact that the movement doesn't care, it tells me that there's something wrong.

And if you trace its roots, it goes all the way back to random spoken word theology. We have the spoken word now. It's a new thing. It really became superior to the written word, if you understand how it is.

Combined that with manifest sons of God, your little God, your speaking new words, new Bibles. It, again, it's turning into a religion that's not even the same as what it was to the point that they've even come up with new Bibles that replace it.

In Brannemism, his spoken word kind of replaced the Bible. Now, the new, the passion translate, there's another one too, I'm trying to think of this. So there's the mirror, probably the mirror. I've done extreme depth studies on all of this, which I didn't even know necessarily about all of it until the pastor started using it.

But like what you're saying is we've lost the authority, the standard, and when you lose your standard, who knows what's gonna happen? And that's one of the things that bothered me the most was like, why don't you care about the word?

Like I remember, Brian Simmons actually went to Wagner University, Peter Wagner's unaccredited college, where he got his doctorate degree that only takes somebody two years to get with no previous college or biblical studies at all.

So I'm like, well, that's a fake doctorate, right? Like I don't have a problem with something not being accredited. I do have a problem walk around saying you're a doctor when you're really not, because that lends a level of authority, you know?

And so, because he's not just saying that he wrote a book, what he's saying is he's writing the Bible, which is totally different, you know? And so I do think in the NAR there is an absolute attack on the authority of the word of God, you know?

Like, and that's not for me and my household. You know, we're gonna hold fast to it. And that's one of the hardest things. I remember making that decision. I'm hearing in your words that you came, came through the same thing.

Your family's embedded in this. All of your children's, friends or friends of the church. When you pull them out, this is not an easy thing. Right. And when you leave oddly, members of the church will condemn you and they'll say, he went out because they wanted to be part of the world. And not even knowing and understanding how difficult it was for you to make that decision to take that first step, and it's a step towards truth, not towards error. So I sympathize with you because I know exactly we still to this day think back to all of the turmoil that we went through whenever

this happened. It's a difficult thing. Yeah, it really is. And so like with the passion, the pastor started using it. And I never really liked it because, you know, like I had five years of Bible college, like where we did Greek and Hebrew. But he said he was a doctor. And so I equated him to the professors I've seen who can literally take a Greek New Testament and, you know, real, real doctors, Old Testament, New Testament, real ones. And so it gave me a little bit of comfort, but I didn't really like their make because I knew that the Old Testament, Hebrew and the New

Testament is Greek and that's not my fault. That's God's, you know, God's choice. And once I found out that Bible Gateway app took it off, that's what I started in my research. And so I just found out like just about the Peter Wagner thing. So I called Wagner University and started asking questions about the doctor program. And I'm like, what's the name of a real doctorate like at all, you know? And so I took that information to the pastor.

And he's like, we're all looking to him, but I'm still going to use it. And I said, look, I'm not going to fight it, but I will not use it. And I never did anyway. And then a couple of weeks from the pulpit, this is what he says. And I know all this stuff going on with the passion translation. If you don't want to use it, you're crazy. I mean, like there's no regard for any other leadership in any of these churches. Like it's not, you know, such a control. Absolutely. And the other thing I keep hearing from you is something that

I've been thinking through in depth because I'm actually doing some research in this area. But when you're in this type of movement, they don't preach for you. They preach at you. And so the target is not to save the lost. They will actually preach at the lost. I remember after I left hearing an actual gospel sermon where they're inviting the sinners to come up, the sinners from outside in the world, we want everyone. We want everyone saved.

Well, that's not how it is in these churches, man. If you do something that even just is slightly against the opinion of the minister, they will just harp at you from behind the pulpit. And what does this do to a person who's sitting there listening, the people who are listening, especially after they leave, they don't want no part of this movement, but they also want no part of the person because this is not a good person. They've learned that some of his actions aren't very good. And I, you know, I I have to wonder when you think of just normal human interactions.

Take church out of it, take religion out of it. If you walk up to somebody and you have a difference of opinion and he suddenly just starts screaming at you, are you going to continue talking to him?

But yet when you're in this mind control, you'll sit there Sunday after Sunday, you'll take beaten after beaten. Whenever we left the brand of churches, there's this one church in particular that the men would gather outside.

And one of them said, man, we sure got a good tongue lashing this day, didn't we? Everybody starts laughing. And as a kid, I laugh with him because they were laughing now as an adult, I'm thinking, why did you submit to this?

Why would you want a verbal beating every Sunday? It's crazy what we subject ourselves to. It's just unbelievable. It reminds me, and when you were talking about Michael's sister and about that congregation, it's like they came there that day, didn't even know that they were going to get involved in something that they had nothing to do.

And they're basically getting beat down for something they have no, right? I mean, it was like exactly what you're talking about, and you do just set there Sunday after Sunday, but you keep seeing the best in them, you hope that you're like, surely that's not what they mean, but it really is.

It's just crazy. And you have to forgive yourself and understand the grace of God, and it's like, why did it take so long to leave? Why did it? So we finally made that decision, and it was one of the best things that we did.

We don't know if the church we're on now will be our forever home, but we love it. We absolutely love it because it's no longer centered around one man and their gifts and their emotions, but it's really centered around Christ and about serventhood.

I mean, like, listen, that apostle did nothing. He didn't clean. He didn't move chairs, nothing. Our pastor and his pastor's wife and everybody's leadership of the church were at. I mean, they're the first to take the trash out to scrub the toilet.

And it's just like, it's just so refreshing to see an atmosphere of humility, right? Where no one is really, it's not perfect, but just the serventhood attitude of like seeing Jesus and it all is just so refreshing, you know, it really is.

If you could go back in time to whenever you was in this, and before you came to realize that it was a cult, but to give yourself some encouragement of how difficult times were about to be, what would you, what advice would you give yourself?

Well, honestly, it would be, get out as fast as you can. It, you know, it really would be that it would be when we first started going there and like I said, we didn't know.

in this church for a couple of years, the pastor used to say these like real bold statements that need to be thought out because if they're not thought out, they were kind of offensive, right?

And it was always, you know, the local church is not for the unbeliever. And I'm like, I understand what you're saying, but no one else does. Like, and so I was just talking to him, right?

Like one moment after service, just talking, going, I would never have said that from the pulpit, thinking it was friendly. Oh no, verbally attacked right there. And then after literally ridiculing me, telling me I was arrogant, said, now you have a choice not to be offended.

And I just, at that moment, if I could have said, we are out, I would have saved all the heartbreak, you know? It would be get out, honestly, get out. Yeah, I grew up, I spent a lot of time in the South and I'm trying to, I'm the reason I keep laughing.

I know that you're looking at me and wondering why it was. Oh no. I'm picturing that same scenario, take away the church, take away the religion, and do this down in Georgia. Walk up to somebody and treat them like this guy, just treated you down in Georgia.

You'll get a good beaten by some of the good old boys. They will not put up with it. And yet, I know some of those same people put them into a church where they're under the spiritual abuse, let them be abused every Sunday under the mind control and they sit there and put up with it.

I'm not advocating for fist fights or anything like this, but I'm saying that if you really understand that you're under such a level of control that you'll submit to a verbal beating, that's what this is, a verbal beating.

I can't, I just can't imagine staying. So I'm like you, get out as fast as you can. Yeah, I know, really it is. Like I had a question for you. So like, because I thought, I'm like, can people really be this manipulative?

Because that's not how I am, right? Like I don't think of like that at all. So I'm like, were they taught or is this something that like they're actually thinking about how to control people?

Like I do think that there are some people who really think about how can I control everybody, you know? But like one of the ways that we never, we were controlled was any meeting that we really had was like 15 minutes before the service started and you couldn't get anything done, you know?

And it was like periodic and it was only with issues. And I'm like, was that how it was with you guys? Like, you know, it's a complex thought and not one that we can do in the five or 10 minutes that's left.

I started a new series with a lady. It's going to come out, I probably, I think before this one. But we're studying the mental effects of what happened with the youth and youth with a mission, Y-WAM.

And one of the thoughts is the manipulation. How do you get this manipulation? I know people who were very close to me, who were manipulators. And yet, I... and knew some of the same people were very, very good people.

How do you do this? How can you be a good person and a bad person at the same time? That's a conversation Bob Scott and I often have. There are studies and she mentioned it first, and I had forgotten about this study, but I think it might have been Harvard.

They did this scenario where they brought in just average people and had them run a prison as an experiment to see how people reacted. And within the course of just, it wasn't long, it was just a few hours.

They were just brutal to the other people who were in the prison ward, right? And normal people off the street, you can read the study. It's, I'll try to, actually I want to do a whole podcast on it, so I'll put something up.

But an average human person who has a tendency towards anger, towards control, especially if you have narcissistic personality disorder, if you have any of these negative personality traits, and you're given unlimited authority and control without boundaries and without any sort of accountability, these type of people will spiral out of control.

If you give the same people boundaries and accountability, and there's an equal board where they're watching you and they're making sure you don't spiral out of control, people like this can really thrive and survive in an environment.

The problem is that this movement, because of the way the framework was laid, there is no accountability. And so you take really good people. Bob Scott will say Mike Pickle is one of the best friends he ever had, great person.

And he just went down this pathway. I know that this offends a lot of people, but I'll say I probably believe him, because Mike Pickle did not have the accountability that restrained him from becoming a bad person.

And yes, he had this evil in his head all along, but everybody has something in their head all along. Well, he had his levels worse than other people. Don't give me wrong. But given the same accountability, even though he had this thing in his head, and if it was addressed quickly, maybe he needed some counseling initially.

Maybe if this thing were exposed immediately, maybe he could have gotten help, and then it never would have grew into what it did. So good people can do bad things. That's a theme that Bob Scott uses.

But I qualify that with good people can do bad things if they don't have proper accountability and boundaries. Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. It is definitely deep, because it's just like, you know, when you set back and you think about things and you're like, you know, was the, was he, was were they taught that we're gonna communicate by not communicating with the congregation?

You know, like is that what CF and I taught? You know, like, or is that just something, like these people pick up on their own, you know, and it was just like, I remember thinking, So we're not going to tell the congregation. We just had leadership change and eldership. Well, no, well, I just Confuses me, you know what I mean? Like I just I don't I don't get it. And that was just one of the things is like where they really Is did they really think like that? You know and you know one of the things

I think I'm going to take away from talking to you is I'm going to try to think about you know the positives that we did have You know because as much as I mean listen, I will tell you right now. I think that's that a Pastor disqualified himself from the ministry For because obviously I know a lot more than you know, then I would care to share Because it's really the NAR that is dangerous and what it produces and the people that it puts into power but He also did come to every one of the births of my children

You know, I'm sure he showed up to feigners, you know, I'm sure there was a lot of times So you know, I think I'm going to try to hang on to that because you know, that's one of the struggles that we have is to You know because I it's not going to be okay if I spend the rest of my life and not forgive him like that That's anti-kingdom. So like I have to work that out, you know, and so that's one of the things that I really Appreciate you saying what's a lot to work out and it's something that is it's not easy

I I can say from experience. It's not easy But on the other side, you're better for it if you can go through the the trouble of doing it So thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, no, I really appreciate it and like I said you felt a lot of people It was one quick thing. I was talking to one of my best friends who got saved together and I was like have you heard about leaving the message And he's like, oh John. Yeah, yeah, of course. He's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've listened to John for about two years

You know, and I'm like, oh man, you didn't even tell me that so it's just yeah, I think her influence is a lot Maybe bigger than you might realize and you know, so great job. We appreciate it a lot because there's a lot of us who

Are leaving places like this, you know, well, I'm glad it's a help and I'm glad that you shared your story There are a lot of people who are in similar situations that I think will be helped by by what you're sharing So this has been really fun. Thank you. Thank you again for doing it. Yeah, you too John I appreciate it a lot if you've enjoyed a show and you want more information or to share your story You can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branham dot org from more about the dark side of the new

Apostolic Reformation you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR Available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible