Assimilated: The Subtle Shift Into a High-Control Church

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at www.William-brannum.org and with me I have my very special guest, Preet U.S.R., former member of the New Apostolic Reformation.

Preet, it's good to have you on board and to share your story. Hopefully I didn't slaughter your name. It's a very difficult name to pronounce, but thank you for coming to share your story. Thank you very much for having me and know you didn't slaughter my name.

It you pronounced it very very well. I was actually surprised. Well good. We've been talking a little bit through email and you were involved with the church, which honestly, similar to what I just described before we started recording. There's so many churches out there that should have no relationship to the New Apostolic Reformation.

Even some of them, I've looked at even if you look at their histories, there isn't a direct lineage back to Laterane or New Apostolic Reformation, Carysmania, but so many churches are starting to adopt the New Apostolic Reformation philosophies. I'm using that word specifically philosophies because it is a variance between what you see in the Bible and what they're doing in teaching and it can only be an ideology or a philosophy. So so many churches are adopting this you are in one such church. Maybe if you could just start by telling us a little bit about yourself

and about the church. It's actually a very sad story in a sense that I was part of this church for almost 24 years, actually 23 years plus and unfortunately I had to leave together with my spouse with my wife and also there were many other members who left but but in the beginning when when I got saved I was just 14 years old and I also come from a broken family. My father was like alcoholic and thank God he's not anymore but still the family was shattered because of that and me and my brother grew up with my mother and I was only like nine years old when that happened

so everything was messed up already. So I started also to drink a lot of alcohol when I was like 13 and my health got really really bad. So It went so bad that actually when I was like 14 and a half, I almost died because I smoked so much, I got sick and I still couldn't stop, you know.

So, and I had so many problems and trouble for a young person like me, like the police station was sometimes my second home. You know, the police picked me up like even from the school and I was so embarrassed, there was always something happening.

So, my life was a mess even in the early age, but long story short, then I got saved and how I got saved was basically on my deathbed when I was having these breathing problems.

I had asthma and other sicknesses and then I thought that okay now is the moment where I'm going to die. And then I cried out to Jesus because I heard in the Sunday school like way back when I was a child that God forgives, God loves you and no matter what people say about you, God still cares for you, He wants to have you.

And I remember all that on that bed. And after that such a peace came and I couldn't even care less if I live or die because I felt such a peace and I knew even if I died right now, I go to be with God.

But anyway, I promise to God if I survive I will go to church, I will turn my life around. And that's exactly what happened, so I repented from my lifestyle, my life became quite boring compared to what it was before, like explanation marks boring, but everything changed.

My health got better, my got better friends and the church was awesome. And the first three years of me attending to the church, my foundation was late, I learned about the love of God, I learned about prayer, I learned so many things and I was really excited about things of God.

Especially like coming from that background where you basically had no love in your life, but now you have friends who love you, the pastors who love you, the Christian community, it was so awesome.

Three years and I felt pretty confident in God, I knew that I know Jesus, I had fellowship with Jesus and I couldn't ask for a better life and I was so thankful that I could say it.

But then what happened was during that time that was now 2001-2002 where, and I got saved, 1999 actually early January, so it was exactly three years. And then our church was... united with a network and it was called a postolic network and how it got to that was that our pastor actually was in the United States and and he was in Robert's Leridon church and there was a conference and there was this a postal who was doing a seminar there from Malaysia and this a postal preached in a way that our pastor never heard before

so it was very new it seemed to be super powerful and something that's very much different from what we have had so far so it was like a next level so to say like in teaching and revelations and everything and he was so excited to to bring the church into this network because he got in contact with the the postal and and then then we were pretty much part of this larger apostolic network and all the teachings all the books CDs whatever you can imagine where teaching can come from they were in our church books were even translated to our native languages

and language and so on and even our church like collectively traveled to the seminar to Malaysia I think it was like 40 of us not everybody went but it was around 40 people from Estonia that went this one and two week long seminar one was for members and other was for leaders additional one so it was like hours and hours of listening to teaching and in the beginning it was very exciting it looked like wow God is really doing something something new something that's not boring at all because the basic teachings they felt already so you know like how long do you teach about faith

and how long do you teach about prayer now we went deeper much deeper and it became to an extent where the scriptures that you read before now suddenly you were introduced to totally different translations or not translations but revelations about the scriptures so you felt like oh wow that's deep I never read that from the Bible so it was super exciting and you you sort of thought that now I understand even deeper and better those scriptures that you read like for years and and now there is something new hidden you know so we called it the scriptures

coming alive basically and what it was because I read the Bible I knew the Bible but what it was they would they would have the scriptures that you would read and then they would inject things and they You have to read in between these lines, so what they're doing was adding their own ideas, and it was coming alive because they were making it colorized.

Exactly, and so having these deep revelations, then you thought there were deep, of course, and then there were sentences and slogans like, we are the cutting-edge believers, we are the tip of the spear, you know, and it felt like we are like a university level in the teachings, and the rest of the churches, even here locally, they are like maybe primary school or something, you know, you felt that your revelations and the teachings there are so much higher, and so much more deep that, yeah, so there was certainly element of pride in there, where I talked more about that a little later, but anyway, it was quite the latest, you know,

and we couldn't see it then, I couldn't see it then, I thought it's normal, you know, that's what Scott is doing now, and actually I never seen an Apostle even before, you know, before this big Apostle that was in Malaysia, you know, so that was something new.

But what happened, what I noticed pretty soon, being part of the network now for a while, that something started to go missing from the things that were so foundational, I experienced that one thing that was fading away was the joy from the people, also the level of peace, you know, this was totally fading away like grace.

So many things that you said that brought up memories, in fact, as you were speaking, my mind went one direction because I was thinking of my own past, you mentioned the breathing problems, the asthma, this is something I've suffered with all my life, in fact, there, you can probably even see it in the comment feeds, people comment, why do you clear your throat all the time?

And it's because I have this respiratory issue of had all my life, it's actually better now than when I was in the movement, but when I was in the movement, the, you know, this was a faith healing movement, believe in God, all of your, all of your sicknesses, your ailments would leave you, and yet I was suffering as a child, I had allergy so bad my eyes would swell shut, and there would be sometimes days I would miss school, and fast forward to an adult, I did not know what it was, they, in fact, they thought it was,

because of the, all of the drainage was causing my esophagus to swell up, and constrict, and I couldn't breathe, I thought I was dying, I had a scope, and they thought maybe it's acid reflux, something like this, and they couldn't find anything because it's, you know, just an allergy problem, but I thought I was dying, but yet I was, and a faith healing cult that said, believe and confess your faith and your healing.

So I was pretending that I was healed. I did not have this thing. Yet I was suffering, heavily suffering. After I left, I started going to an allergy doctor. Most of it went away.

I still have a little bit of a, right now I have a head cold, but usually I have just a little bit of a clearing of the throat and that's it. But that's the type of movement this is.

They want you to believe something that isn't there. Add things to the scriptures that aren't there. Make it come alive in ways that really, if you take a step back, it's more of a fantasy than it is reality.

How did this change your faith? What, you mentioned that they came in with these conferences, what changed in your worship style and how you viewed religion and church? The one thing that changed the church immediately, actually, very short time after joining this postolic network was a notice that the peace was going away.

You didn't feel that peace anymore. It was all the time some kind of urgency and something to achieve, to do something, to, yeah, I get to that a little bit later. We got a bunch of prophecies from there.

The church got a bunch of prophecies that we started to chase that were coming. Obviously, none of those prophecies came to pass, but still we felt like we have to drive towards making those prophecies happen.

Then the joy from the people, it disappeared. I definitely saw that people started to get more depressed and not feeling this joy of salvation anymore. And me, myself, obviously, I was one of the first ones, probably, I felt that because the foundation that was laid in my early years of becoming saved, it was so precious, the love of God, the care of God, that was so precious to me, because that's what was missing in my life.

And that's actually what I found when I came to Jesus. But now, suddenly, some sort of other picture from God starts to be painted to you. And this picture doesn't connect with the one that was when your foundation was laid, that God is loved, God cares for you, God has good plans for you.

And obviously, to walk out the Christian faith from this kind of position that I am accepted by God, that I am loved by God. But now, there was something else coming. And obviously, this also robbed your peace, this robbed your joy and everything.

Now, I have to do stuff so much. And it was very like a listing. It was like, now, you have to earn. Actually the love of God basically nobody said it with these words, but that's exactly how it feels like you know now You must earn the love of God That's why often The believers who maybe were more needy more weak maybe had more problems They were looked as Nobody again said these words, but it looked like they were more like Hinderance to the word of God do the plans of God because now we must deal with these

Believers who have been saved for years and they still have those problems you know So you'll basically live them alone with their problems. I myself had this experience I felt so long I felt like this heaviness and I couldn't explain what's this heaviness season now Deconstructing and looking back I understand obviously But back then I didn't so I went to the pastor and And talk to him and said that hey, I really feel so heavy like it's like a depression or something And it's been a long time and I don't know why why why is it there and

And my experience was and and the pastor was looking at me and smiling in a Very arrogant way like very arrogant way And I was shocked I felt no love no compassion and nothing So I thought okay, why did I come to counseling and then of course came the basic Instruction, you know what you must do, you know read the word and pray and be in fellowship with God and so on But there was no connection in harsh preaching, you know that was going on in the church like in his mind And I don't know if he did it

Probably out of this place also where he was he he also felt like okay god is doing something we must go on Very quickly and and those needy people, you know they you know they must They always have some needs, you know, but but we must strive for the higher purposes that God has for our church, you know So I felt pretty much like left alone and that was the last time actually I went to counseling that was many many years ago Because with that experience I felt like there is no safe place even Where to go to because my spiritual leader was always the one that in my mind was closest to God, you know, so because he braced the most he

Um reads the word the most so obviously he must know God better than I do and back then I I didn't understand Now I do but but I felt very helpless and then You know still God was working in me. So the good thing is even if you are a sheep under some kind of system Jesus is still your shepherd so he was stealing with my heart and I still felt that actually the foundation that was laid in the first three years, that is the true thing, not the new one that we joined.

Again, it's like you're telling my story. I struggled with many of the same things, because it felt like there was no love among the people. And even more to the point, there was no love outside of the people. And what I mean by that is, you were this body of believers, you were the elite. The outside was considered the world, and you were better than the world. You're better than this, right? The scriptures come alive. The other churches don't have this. And there was this concept that they taught. They didn't come out and say the words,

but it was essentially this. The other churches have the gospel. We have moved beyond the gospel. They didn't use the word gospel, but they would use other words. And essentially, that's exactly what it meant. If you go to another church, they're just going to teach you Jesus. We have something else. We have something better. And that something better for us usually ended up to be divine healing or something related to the Pentecostal faith. But you look around and many of the people like myself, many of the people were still struggling with the things that we were supposed

to be better in. So I asked the question, well, what is this? Why does this matter? And I started struggling with depression as well. At the same time, I was going through several other things that were very difficult life situations. And I went to a pastor and what you described as exactly what I remember vividly, we have this phrase. I don't know if you have it. It's like like a used car salesman, which is offensive if you are a used car salesman. But what it means essentially is you put this big smile on your face and you show somebody this car that's not very good and you try to sell it with

the smile on your face. And that's kind of what I felt whenever I went to a minister, especially with regards to mental health, because any mental health medication is frowned upon. For me, it was just simple clinical depression and mostly situational depression that was easily, easily I could have got help for this. But they said, don't go to the doctors, John, because if you go to the doctors for this, they'll give you this medicine. And once you take it, you'll leave the faith. You just watch what happens. I've watched it happen many times. And at the time, I'm thinking, well, that's

amazing. But now in hindsight, as I'm deconstructing, people who are struggling severely with different issues, and they're preventing the help that they need, it's literally robbing the people of their own happiness. And when you're not happy yourself, you can't be happy to others. Exactly. And could say that you also can't give what you don't have. So that means also love, like basically loving people.

It's very hard to do it when you don't experience love or you don't experience love yourself, you know. So this was another thing that just like you mentioned, the focus to even reach saved people, you know, that was basically non-existent because the doctrine suggested that we must do more church building, you know, whatever that means, you know.

But we now built the church, you know, that's God's plan for the church. And also in your podcast, I see that you have talked a lot about it. And so many things I have recognized that we had like this dominionist theology, you know.

But in practice, it doesn't work, you know, it's just an idea of a bad doctrine, you know. But in real life, it doesn't work, you know. Because it was preached again and again that the church must be the one in society who calls the shots, you know.

And oftentimes I remember where examples were brought from John Alexander Dowey, how he was in Chicago. Was it in Chicago? Yeah, that basically all the politicians came for advice to him. And he had such a evangelical reach like everywhere in Chicago and even further.

And he was basically living out this position that God wants his believers to have in society. So basically, mayors and presidents, they come for counseling and the churches establishes the kingdom that way. You know, that we rule, we rule.

And of course, it's a broader topic, you have talked so much about it, you know. But what it creates is, it also creates this fleshly desire to be important, you know, to be something in the eyes of people, you know, in the world.

So that the church wouldn't be something strange in the eyes of people. But it's some, well, basically when you go back to a constant in the era, then you see that that's exactly what happened.

And you know, so I don't know, like that didn't work out well, but somehow people want to go back to it still, you know. Yeah, the irony is they preach so heavily against the Catholic church, but they're wanting to set up the same exact system that they condemn.

Yeah. And, and yes, now, now, now we smile and talk about it, but, but it was so serious. And this dominion is the theology and this elitist, how to say, state of mind maybe that the leader is had and the church, frankly, everybody had, you know, that obviously the grace and peace and the character and traits of how to say the characteristics of God, they are not present when you have pride, when you have this kind of fleshly desire to be important and so on.

And the thing is, it felt to me that these things are explained away as, as, okay, that's the norm, what God wants for you, and you don't see a problem there, you don't see that it's in conflict with the basic scriptures, you know, like love your neighbor, you know, honor each other more than, you know, how is the scripture like?

It's actually all through the New Testament, you should love others even better than yourself. Precisely, but now we try to be important, we try to dominate, we try to rule, you know, and achieve this. And obviously, the church did nothing in local community, basically nothing, never, like, like no reach out, only maybe some, sometimes during Christmas time, did something and invited people and so on. But to be honest, in the end, I didn't want to invite people because of what was preached. So coming back to the, to the theology that was going on, that created a super heavy atmosphere, and that's why people got, got, so depressed, and I was

actually part of leadership. I wasn't like one of the main leaders maybe, but, but I was sometimes preaching, sometimes leading the meetings and so on. And I always tried to preach something, like positive, something that would lift up people that would create a little bit of joy, and I remember precisely one older man that is with the Lord now, he came to me after church and said that, yeah, I so much agree with you and I have thought, so long time, like, does it have to be so hard all the time, you know? So obviously, you could see that people were burdened, you know,

church should be a place where your government, you experienced the freedom in Christ, but now you, you get new burdens instead. So it was very heavy. And that's, that's sad. And frankly, I was very close to the pastor's family, like I was friends with the kids and so on as well.

And to be honest, I know that the pastor himself, he, he's sincere person, but to me that dilemma always has been, how can you be sincere? Like, we are in a coffee table, we talk about the things we've got, but then from the pulpit, like often times you, you breach such heavy messages, you know, you become another person and, and also how you treat people, how you have been treating people, like, like, there is no love, how you treat people and have been treating people. And so this, This one ends in my mind like, okay, but he's sincere, he loves God, but then the behavior

is like this, you know, like such a disconnect, and it was so hard to figure out like, what is it? Like, how? How? If you get closer to God, you automatically should start to love people more, you know, care for them more, you know, be less selfish, and all these good things, the fruits of the spirit should come forth from you, but there is nothing.

So I personally believe now that he and the leadership also is a victim of very bad theology, you know, that has caused this. I don't know, God only knows, but they do what they believe is right, you know, to protect the work of God and to build according to these blueprints that they have received from the postolic network and who knows where else, but the fruits have been very bad and they didn't cut off, you know, the thing that, where the bad theology comes from.

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Like I said, you remind me so much of my own journey, so many things that you say, and I'm certain because if I feel it, I'm certain the listeners are feeling it too. Whenever you come to terms with the fact that what they're teaching really isn't the gospel, something's wrong, the love that we used to have is not here, the love that even just think beyond even the church system.

Think of a person who has never been to church. There's a human side of you that you want to love other people. And they even take away that element from it, usually, that people on the outside, they're not to be loved.

Like you said, there's no incentive to go spread the gospel to the doomed. That's usually the way the doctrine unfolds. I felt that, and so I'm a person who I want to take action.

In fact, that's a large reason I do what I do. I begin to think, is there something that I'm doing or could I'm not doing or could do better? or to make the church better, is it on me?

Is there something that I'm doing wrong? I'm sensing this or other people sensing this. And I started going through all of these thoughts, trying to think of, okay, there must be something wrong here, it must be just me that's feeling this.

Otherwise the whole rest of the church would just be in an uproar. I'm certain if I felt that and you're describing my story, I'm certain you felt it too. What was it like when you came to terms with, there's just something bad wrong with this place?

How I came to terms with that was very interesting. Because one other thing is crazy that I think now is that it was preached from the pulpit that our destiny is actually tied to the local church, to the leadership, to the leaders.

So because God has placed those leaders over you, now we can talk about also a little bit later, maybe about the covering theology that was very heavy. And for you to fulfill your destiny, you have to be part of your local church.

So even if you would think about leaving the church, you believe, because you heard it so many times, you started to believe a lie that your destiny and God's plans, whatever God has for you, is totally connected to the church that God has placed you and with the leaders that God has put over you.

So it creates such a trap, like mental trap, where you cannot escape, you know? Yes, I love God, I want to do the will of God. Also, I want to have God's protection. I don't want anything bad to happen to me, you know?

Because the covering theology also teaches, okay, if you are not in this church, you know, with those leaders, you sort of lose your protection from God, you know, basically you are not safe anymore.

So this kind of lies also keep you in captivity. So you basically, a lot of people don't go away from cults and this kind of churches because they fear, they fear that the plans of God will not be fulfilled and also that they are not covered and they are like a prey to the enemy or something.

But for a short time, that was one and a half years, I could go to a Bible school in another country. And to be honest, I was so looking forward to go because just to get out and also it was a church and the Bible school that I had visited before like many years, like during some holidays and so on and I really liked it.

So this place was sort of like a rehabilitation center for me. I could wash off a lot of lies, a lot of dogmas, like bad dogmas and doctrines that I had believed. And also to have leaders actually who really were God loving and caring leaders that I could talk to about things.

And that was sort of fresh. But obviously it is one and a half years and two years they go pretty fast. So I felt that my depression was gone. I felt that I'm so well mentally over a long time.

And I felt like such anxiety that now I go back, you know, where I came from. And it all starts to come back to me again. Because even if you know the truth, still if you are in this atmosphere and if you are in this sort of setting like daily or two times a week or whatever, you still, it starts to influence you.

You know, because the positive things, they fade away. And that's exactly what happened. You know, it didn't take long time. Then I was a leader of missions work, just doing missions like meetings where I talked and preached about missions and so on.

Why I'm not saying a leader because we really didn't have leaders. We had only one or two who were leading that were the pastors. And there was like a team that was basically doing what the pastor said.

So there was no plural. plurality. Exactly. Very complicated words, sorry. Of leadership. Yes. And so basically the leaders did only what what the main leaders said. So there was no like no discussion or debates about the ideas or stuff or even the directions of the doctrines and like never, nothing.

But anyway, so and but then what happened was that since I had this good face now in between the years, I felt like more confident in my faith and more confident to actually not submit myself to do the teachings that were going on.

And and it was very hard to sit actually on Sundays and oftentimes when and and I'm not saying that every service was some bad things. There was some like relatively good meetings as well, I must say.

But it felt so bad to sit there with a straight face where you cannot even say a man where you cannot, you know, be with with the preacher, you know, because there is so much stuff that you are so against, you know.

So what kind of what kind of attendance of a church is that, you know, why should you be there and suffer, you know, through the meeting. So it was so bad. So oftentimes I didn't go even anymore.

I skipped Sundays. I just couldn't bring myself to go. But then there was a time, of course, that Minusta, että COVID- laat osattavia, jos eivät paljon quad 17 bragoria. Minusta tämä on omуса, jotka haluais olla autausi podobВО, edelleen tul Lautta.

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And whenever the pastor preached not 100 per cent maybe but a lot of teachings were about Gods each questions and things like that that puhelこれは enemmän järvää emähtii aina lapsia. I tuomme tosi jo voisi pois että jota eri storiak準ta.

Voi ei ole hoffe su Stephanie saatu enseltesi, mutta2020 spaudat ihmisairanasutustilla on่ tella 7 rutinaa. Sitten on meille taranneet valbein ja sitten luovoneitaen. Whenever the prophecy said what you need to do, what people need to do.

Then there came some promise how much good it will come out of it. And I don't believe that anybody should actually even talk like this. That so says the Lord because, then it implies that there is such an authority that you must obey it.

哈哈 kata tuvoa, Surekossa mentre on ha掉 shottaa, hillä on suура olleet harvoaemiosinta. Nämä on edelleen metsäojaitaios, suoraan comparedantaja. Whenever they're doing, aren't setting up this kind of monarchi within a church, they are the king, they are the ruler.

And in fact, because it's Christianity, they are the God so when they say, thus say, if the Lord usually, it's thus say, if they're them and you can tell this very clearly because the things that they say, they're either anti biblical, they're against just the basic principles of Christianity, the love piece, the things that give people love and peace.

Työ ordin pität täytyy k beverageset antukneet ja muotohtiiet microscopen ja muotohtiiettei monkelutta kboltset kitiveettat bagus�eringi etettämään brinstableisille hyökee hyökin But now it's embedded into the church and they're using the name Jesus instead of Zeus or Poseidon or one of the ancient gods.

Exactly. But these prophecies were given very lightly and I remember in one leadership meeting, even the pastor said the prophecy that I could judge on the spot and say that that's not the Lord.

Of course I didn't tell it to him but anyway the prophecy, in the prophecy he said that and now speaking as a God would speak and I will leave from those who don't give 100% to me, you know, everything.

So wow, so 100% is not defined. What does it look like 100%? I mean, even if you give 100% like in your mind 100% maybe there could be some more that you could give, you know.

There's never enough. So again very legalistic and very obscure. You wouldn't understand. What does it mean even? But such a serious threat, God will leave you when you don't give this 100%. So and obviously the Bible says that I will never leave you nor forsake you.

So with the word we can test it and say that no, the Lord is not going to leave you, not even those who don't leave like 100% to the Lord and we all fall short.

So so this kind of prophecy and obviously that again another dose of fear that gets injected into you when you listen to that because now there is a man of God now like your bastard that you trust 100% like let's say 100% He's the spiritual authority. You should go to him for advice, you know, that's like common practice in churches where you seek like advice from some elder, some older, somebody who is maybe older in the Lord and who is a leader and and and then this person, you know, speaks in behalf of God now.

And obviously, you know, even if consciously you know something is wrong subconsciously, you still like that's so heavy, that's so how to say so serious. That's so like how to say not sad, but but that's so serious, you know, that's so fearful and and this kind of, you know, if you get enough of those messages, what kind of picture it paints from God, you know, what kind of picture. And I am sure if I would talk today to the pastor and and say, hey, those things that you said, those things that you prophesied, the pastor would probably say, whoa, I have never done it, you know, I have never said things like this, you know, and and wouldn't see any fault, you know, so because many people who started to feel in the church that

something is really wrong when they went to the pastor and talked about the things, I know firsthand many people who went, they always came back with understanding that the fault was in themselves, in their heart, that they must change the attitude towards the leader, that they must change their thinking. There was never wrong anything with the message or anything with the behavior or the words that the pastor had said or never, so it was a lot of gaslighting, so people didn't trust their own feelings, their own perception anymore, they rather trusted, okay, well the leader must know, you know, so because they are the ones who are closer

to God and they know God, you know, who am I? So basically that was how the counseling sessions that was one of the surprising things for me, just simply reading the Bible over turns most of the theology that they're pushing, and it turns into agenda, basically what they're preaching is not the gospel or the good news, it is preaching an agenda, and so when you go expecting to hear the good news and be uplifted, you're really not, you feel like you're on a mission, they're wanting to give you a mission, what is your mission, what is your goal to basically, you mentioned,

dominion, as many of them have this and they don't even recognize, your mission is actually to take over the world, that's what they want you to do or believe, and it becomes a fantasy because also like you said, logistically that's not possible in the way that they're trying to push this, nobody's just going to forfeit all of their control over to the religious leadership, in the past we have proven that this is a very, very bad idea, but it is the difference between the gospel and what is their mission and the two are not equal. One of the other things that you

mentioned, which is fascinating to me, I actually meant to interrupt you whenever you said it, you mentioned COVID, if you understand how the cult psychology works and the cult mindset, interestingly from what you've described from start to finish at this point, you have described a normal church, a normal body of people coming into the cult mindset, gaining a central figure, now creating the cult hierarchy, taking on the impressions of the central figure, they basically take on the cult identity so everybody's kind of alike in the same manner.

What you've described is essentially an entire church being assimilated, which is fascinating from a psychological standpoint. Interestingly, I've studied this to great lengths as you can imagine, but the most interesting study was during COVID, because during COVID, whenever you weren't allowed to go into the churches, the cult psychology just was simply broken. You cannot have group think if you're not in a group, so people started breaking away and they started waking up thinking, what is this mess that I was in, and so churches in really...

response. They started to do these things like come join our online session and pay our online ties to fund the online ministries, which was for me it was just very odd because most of the expenses were to go to the body of people who aren't in the building at all, but they're asking for even more money after COVID. So COVID disrupted a lot of churches. I'll just say it like that, but specifically the cult churches it overturned a lot of cult indoctrination. What was it like for you during COVID?

During COVID I would say like if it was bad before then then during that time the worst time started I would say and the pastors were so anti-regulation anti-COVID there was a lot of conspiracy theories of course they wouldn't consider it conspiracy because they still believe that it's the truth.

The point is also with the vaccines like it was believed a videos were circled by the leaders in or mailing list where some were known doctors talked about those vaccines and warned against those vaccines. So also obviously the pastor warned the church against the vaccines and he was convinced whoever takes the vaccines will get I don't know if if not like some serious illness then then no if not only a serious illness but also die so he quoted some sort of noble price winner from France I checked up by the way he didn't win the noble price in that field at all

it was something else and supposedly he said that that it's dangerous vaccine and people who take it will die double checking and seeing what he really said he didn't say anything near that like that people would die but anyway that's how loosely this kind of things were said from the pulpit you know where only truth should be spoken but now came all kind of theories a lot of these q anon theories also started and that was already with the elections but also with the COVID stuff so yeah it became really bad and I had actually the chance also to talk with the pastor

I knew if I have an official meeting then I would be like talk to like opponents talk talks to another opponent but I wanted to have this discussion in some more friendly setting so I brought up this topic once while we sat privately in during Christmas time and then I said that Hey, the thing is that in church obviously there are people who have different political opinions, you know, and different opinions about all kinds of issues.

So I think if we talk, if we preach these very serious topics in the church, I believe that at least for one serious message we should have at least like four or five uplifting messages, so to say it very discreetly.

And he didn't disagree with me, but he also said that the problem becomes when the people are brainwashed by the media but don't listen what the man of God has to say and obviously referring to himself as the man of God.

So you could see that our leader felt like there is something very important going on in the world and he must preach the message and expose the lies of Satan and so on. So there were very much anti-mask, anti-regulation and that was actually one of the key issues what split the church, not even split it, but why so many left the church.

It wasn't a split, people just didn't go anymore. There was one specific Sunday morning service and the wife of the pastor came to the pulpit and said some announcements, but then also said that yeah, we had the leaders meeting and we agreed in leaders meeting that we don't give masks to the people, you know.

And one leader ignored this and gave the masks and we didn't agree with this, with we as the pastors and was very angry, was very angry. And obviously didn't say the name of the person who was the leader that didn't obey.

But this leader then stood up and this never happened, but stood up and said and tried to clarify, no, I didn't give the masks to people, we made them available as we should by law and I didn't give those masks.

So this accusation is not true and she was very respectful, but then she was told to sit down, sit down and obviously that escalated, she was sitting down, but the atmosphere was so bad, so bad, like I wanted to just disappear from there, there was a lot of fear and what's going on now and what's going to happen.

So next Sunday, then there was a big discussion, of course, still present, but next Sunday, there was a meeting where this person who stood up, she was there with the family and they had agreed that this person cannot interrupt whatever is preached from the pulpit, not explain anything, they had a meeting.

privately during the week but now on Sunday and the pastor had two-hour meeting basically scolding this person who stood up, never should have stood up and basically put it in a context of rebellion and this happens everywhere in the world right now and the demonic forces coming on that want to interrupt things and this poor lady who was serving the church like 30 plus years like has done everything for the pastors, served people, been so faithful now it was compared to a wooden statue that God is craving very carefully but then or what's the word not craving

but you know like creating or making but it can burn down with one fire so basically

that's just the problem it like I said whenever you take even out the human respect for other humans and then call this religion call this the gospel you're changing it to something that not only is it not gospel it's anti-human and that turns into a turns into a strange and unusual mass so after you've gone through all of this and you have started to experience what life is like not an occult what would you say is the strongest difference between where you are now and where you were then? I think the strongest difference is that that I know that I can actually

no God for myself I don't have to be dependent on a leader who actually you know is somewhat

making or trying to tell me what the direction of my life should be or what God wants for me in my life so the confidence in that and the confidence of knowing God myself you know personally it's it's so sad that that oftentimes believers make make themselves so dependent on the leaders or shepherds that they call you know and and oftentimes those leaders are obviously more equal than others of course they are more important another thing that was preached was this I hyper-honor like such honor for for for the leaders that you must have you know if you don't

honor the leader then basically God is shutting off all the blessing even bad things may come to you if you talk about the leaders there's so much more that I could talk into this there are so many stories about this absolutely it has literally turned into hero worship instead of worship of Jesus Christ this honor culture that they've created you have to honor the leader and in many cases some of the leaders are dishonorable so what do you do in that case and I've I've learned it's just simply not Christianity if you could give some advice to

others who are trapped in this kind of religion, because I'm certain if what you're saying is very similar to what I experienced, others are going to say the same exact thing. This is exactly like my church. What advice would you give to these people? I would give this advice that you must and I really urge you to not be dependent on any type of leader, especially those who demand honor, who demand submission and referring to the word of God as of that's what you're supposed to do when you want to please God, because this is basically put you in a trapped system where

you actually start to obey a man more than you actually obey God in fear of missing out of God. For instance, there is this one like church that was connected to our church and this pastor is, I would say sometimes even more cruel than what I've seen from some people in our church who were the leaders. There was a couple with kids and they disagreed on certain teachings and they then it up so that this family was about to leave the church. Then the thing is that the pastor was not very pleased with them and then started to prophesy over them, prophesy.

And the prophetic word was that their family will fall apart, their marriage will fall apart, they're going to have in next five years they're going to have financial problems and then they will probably come back to the church. So basically instead of blessing and saying I hope you find some place where you feel more comfortable, they curse them, the pastor curse them.

And the problem is that these pastors who act like this, first of all they don't act in love at all, they act in selfishness, they act in this kind of a totalitarian way where they think that God has given power to them over the people, but that's not the shepherd. God has never given to anybody, power over the people, the rule them. One leader said even that I don't care when I come back next Sunday and the roles are empty, me and the pastor will still do the will of God. So what is the will of God of the leaders? The will of God is to serve the people to be an example. If you don't

have this kind of pastor who is an example for you, example for Christ then you should find another place where to go. So my encouragement would be if you feel trapped in a kind of system who abuses your sincerity to do the will of God and to please God, who makes you feel uncomfortable all the time, like in a bad way where you experience fear, where you experience maybe depression or whatever, find the confidence.

I know subconsciously it's very hard to do, but find the confidence in Christ that actually Christ is your shepherd. You are countable to Him foremost. He loves you. The people don't represent Christ who abuse you, you know.

And you are in any way you don't have to serve them and be in some sort of trap that they have put you into, with the teaching or whatsoever. So that's why discovering teaching and the John Bewears teaches in the fate of Satan and things.

This is all designed actually, even if you feel something inside of you that's not right, you should push it under the rug, you should ignore it and still obey the leader, but this is not what Jesus wants you to do.

That's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much, John. My pleasure. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Thank you. Thank you.