The Cost of Waiting to Live in Deliverance Ministries

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Browns, I'm your host John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former member of Charismania. Franny is good to be back and to dive deeper into what it means to escape from deliverance ministries. And today, I was thinking, as we were talking before regarding this, I used to do consulting where I'd bring in different consulting teams or individuals and there was always that one team that would come in and they would

quote the job and they'd say, we do the job and it's going to take us X number of weeks and X number of dollars and so we would engage them and then they'd find something else that made it extend a bit and then they'd do that and then they'd extend it again and again and in the end you ended up paying what all of the other competitors their higher prices, you know, paying it because they were just squeezing every little dime out of you that they could. And I got to thinking about the deliverance culture.

You're in this pattern where a lot of people come into this thing because they say, I can be healed. I will join this thing, I'll get healed and then I will serve God to the fullest once I get done with this and they kind of put their life on hold while they're in there and then what happens is the healing really never comes or they're those who join because of spiritual warfare. Once this battle is over now I will go and I'll enjoy life and they never really go and enjoy life.

They just kind of get stuck in this weird limbo and the sad part about it is after they're in there for a while they forget that they're in limbo and so it just becomes normal to them and they forget what life was like before they got involved with this. Then on the other hand, you have people like me that were born and raised in it. I never knew what life was until I escaped this and I'm like, oh my gosh, what in the world were we thinking? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, you described it perfectly.

I was thinking about almost like titling it. It's like the life you actually have, deliverance, prophecy and the cost of waiting to live and was thinking a lot about the cost of waiting to live and the thing that sparked me kind of thinking about it over the last couple of weeks based on the last time we talked was seeing a, you know, they're all over social media viral clips of, you know, whether it's like Catherine Crick in LA with her deliverance ministry.

A lot of performative stuff but the thing that stood out to me was a real that they had. And it was this couple, like these parents that wanted prayer for their son that had autism.

And you could see, I mean, that could be reading to this. We could see the desire, you know, the longing that just, you know, please heal our son or whatever. And it just sort of sent me, you know, thinking about my own childhood, like, upbringing, the things I witnessed, and how a lot of times like these, well, a lot of times, I feel like these ministries prey upon PREY, people who are very vulnerable.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with asking God to heal, you know, your child or heal you of whatever it is that's afflicting you. But what I notice, and like what you said is these ministries, or they keep you stuck.

Like you don't, it's like you're waiting to live your life. You're well, when God heals me, when God heals my son, we can, or whatever. Or it's always based around like, you know, well, maybe God didn't, the healing didn't stick because we have this generational curse.

Or you're always trying to like figure out where the open door is other than, you know, instead of just like, you know, my child is autism. I pray that God would heal them whatever that looks like, you know, but at the same time, I have to live my life.

Like this is the life that God has given me. If you believe that or whatever, or, and it's like, I need to live in reality, in the present, and you know, move forward, how should I live?

So I'm not, you know, necessarily, you know, criticizing people for going for prayer or wanting, you know, some sort of healing or a resolution to an issue. It's just that, you know, it is very similar to, I'm a hate saying snake oil salesman because I feel like that's always ever used.

But it's like, you have this issue? Like, I have the cure, or we have what ails you. You know, Bill Johnson, and at Bethel, they always would say something about like, you know, God wants to heal everything.

Like, you know, I believe, or we believe that God's word says that, you know, there should be no sickness, and whatever, and God wants to, it's his will to heal you. And I see that so like, in my opinion, unbiblical, but also like, that's such a dangerous thing because personally, I can speak, being in that, especially like you were saying, you're raising it, like, no any different.

And so it's just automatically, it's like, why am I not healed? Gosh, what did I do wrong? And so you are, you honestly fixate more on whatever it is that you have, or what's ailing you, or tormenting you, or whatever your problem is about like, well, maybe if I do these five steps, This way, this will make my healing permanent or then the healing will come.

Or sometimes, which is a normal human reaction, you get tired like you're burn out.

And so you take a break, but even then that gets framed as like, well, you just, you didn't have that fervent faith, the woman with the issue of blood that held on, or whatever.

And so then you pile more shame and guilt on top of it and blame. It's like, well, I guess it's not, it's my fault. Instead of looking at the people who are perpetuating this system of, you know, it's not of unhealth or whatever it is.

It's benefiting them like you, you know, but not necessarily benefiting you. The sad part about this is you mentioned your son. I know I've worked with people from all types of life, people who are, they have a life with no challenges, whatsoever, and they're trapped in a cult.

And I've met other people who really have some really hard challenges. Those are the ones that really make me angry, because picture yourself being one of these ministers and you're trying to connect people to God.

And you see this family come forward who's really, really struggling. And you tell them that you have the answer. And they come, you give them the answer, they go home, they're obviously not healed.

They keep coming back, keep coming back, and you keep telling them that the answer's just right around the corner. Well, eventually there comes a point in every single person's life. I don't care which minister type you are.

You realize that this is something that this family is going to have to go through. This is something that they are going to be challenged with for a long period of time. But instead of giving them the basic answer, which is, I'm really sorry you're going through this, let us all come together and help you, because you're struggling.

They'll tell you, I can heal this. I can make this go away. God can heal this, God can make this go away. And you give them this answer that's a cared on a stick.

And so they keep chasing that cared on the stick. I knew families that went through this even when I was in the cult. And it really, really bothered me, because I, in the back of my mind, even though I believe all of this stuff, hook line and sinker, in the back of my mind, I knew that they were probably going to suffer with this for the rest of their lives.

But you kept telling them that you had the answer. And in the end, that was one of the things that made me start to really question, because I had a family member with a very, very, very awful thing happened to him.

I won't get into it. I actually start breaking up when I think about it. It's so bad. They were going through something that could not be corrected, and likely not to be corrected in this life.

And the answers they were given is, God can fix it. God can fix this thing, which I'm not going to say that that isn't true. But if you look at the percentage, the batting averages that these deliverance ministries have, it's such a low percentage that there's, you know, it's unlikely.

and you should be giving people the correct answer. Let us come together, let us help you. You're struggling, you may struggle with this for years, but our church is here to help you. When I escaped this deliverance type ministry and started experiencing real churches that had real, real genuine experiences and real genuine answers, that's what they did.

I don't understand why you're going through this, but we're going to help you. And that help, that I keep emphasizing that word, that was missing in the deliverance ministries. Yeah, no, I would agree with that too, because a lot of times, you know, it did.

I mean, just listening to your podcast and then really going down like these different, I don't want to say rabbit holes, it's just the history reading about like different paths or pulling different threads and you see, you know, what really where a lot of these modern day ministries are rooted in like Charles Fox Parham or you know, some of those ministries where it's are unaccountable, itinerant ministers that, you know, hop around from place to place and so you can't verify their claims and if they are very charismatic and people react in services, then for them that shows like, look, I'm anointed

and people get really frustrated with that, but it's interesting. If you talk to people outside of what we grew up in, or outside of this cult, they have such a hard time pinning down the new apostolic reformation, like so hard, it's like such a hard concept for them and because it's not like you can't Google, like go to the NAR's official website and then see, you know, who's a fill, you know, we're affiliated with the NAR or whatever.

A lot of these people, they don't, it's very loose, it's a loose term for this network, you know, for people like us, but a lot of the people who are part of it are like, I'm not an NAR, I'm not part of that or whatever because they don't want to be held accountable.

And so that's how they're able, in my opinion, to kind of get around that, it's like, oh, well that person, like, we're not affiliated with them, like, you know, like what Bethel's doing with all the stuff happening with Sean Bowles and all that mess or whatever.

And it's like, it's ridiculous. Yes, you guys are affiliated, you just want to be held accountable for, you know, the wounding and the damage that, you know, this one person has caused to a lot of people.

And I think that's like, you know, for me too, I'm sort of thinking like the biggest, I guess, we're moving, I guess I'm speaking to the person who's like us or like me, who you either grew up in this or you've had something traumatic happen to you and you really want that healing, you believe, you know, whatever, or someone gave you a prophetic, word. And so you just keep holding onto it. So it's, you know, I grew up with like constantly being prophesied over. It was, you know, or, you know, being delivered and having those

like manifested. So it's interesting on the YouTube videos and of these churches, people are like, Oh, it's a fake paid actor. It could be, but it also could be like a genuine reaction. Like that, there's like a scientific reason for that. And I would say, you know, I see that. And I'm like, well, like I, remember being prayed for and like hands laid on me and people are shaking me. And so then I'm, you know, I grew up in it. So it's trained how to, I knew how to react. And I assumed that that was God. But towards the, you know,

the end of that, it was so, I think my emotion, my nervous system, everything was just so depleted. And then I just had a level of shame. Like when I, you know, finished up at IHOP and I was like, well, I'm not what this, you know, was prophesied. I would say like from a young age people, I don't know why, but like they used to like prophesy over like, Oh, you're going to, I remember being seven being like, Oh, your God has your husband. And so there's always that like weird, you know, seeds being planted about like, God's got a great ministry

for you. And he's got, you know, a great husband for you. So so bizarre. I'm like seven. I'm like, I have no concept of that. And so I think what's another dangerous thing with like prophecy in these deliver, or like you're praying deliverance over somebody, you're like, I'm sensing this is like those, you plant those ideas too and susceptible people's heads. And so they hold on to it. And so I remember by my mid 20s, I was, felt like a big loser because I'm like, well, I must have missed God because like this person who's a legitimate prophet that everyone loves, like prophesied that I'd be married

or prophesied, I'm going to have like a great ministry or I'm going to be wealthy. And I'm not. So a lot of times too, if you like confront them about it, it's like, well, you know, well, you know, we see in part. Well, or you didn't walk it out right or you open the door to the devil or or something like that. And so then, you know, just talking about like living in reality in the life that you have, like living in the present, it does keep you, you know, I start to get fixated on like, why isn't this happening? Where's

the open door? What did I do wrong? How, you know, what did I miss? Or just this low level shame that I know that I felt for years, kind of like, what was that? And it really wasn't until, you know, I was in a pretty toxic work environment where there was a lot of similar patterns to the ministries that I was in, where it was very like double speak, covert narcissistic type where I started to get language for that. Whereas able to kind of draw like, oh, okay, I was in a cult, it's like I'm not a loser.

Like, you know, yeah, I don't, anyway, it's sort of setting me free from that shame piece or that kind of like, I don't know what that was. And not necessarily being mean to my former self, but also like there is a level of freedom of like, okay, I can be normal and I can go about my day, I can live my life, I don't need to like, labor in the place of prayer, you know, for healing or deliverance or whatever it is, I can live today and free from that.

And so I do have a visceral reaction when I hear about it on social media or see, you know, these sensationalists. And I have a real problem with like, Bethel and those places because they do perpetuate this life, this kind of cycle of keeping you stuck.

And the only people, it truly benefits are the ones that benefit from the ministry, the power, the money, whatever it is. And yeah, I don't know, it is funny because you can have people like argue with you like, no, no, I received healing and I would say I'm 44.

If you talk to me probably 10 years ago, I would have been defensive. I would have been like, well, you know, I'm not still in it and they kind of weird. But, you know, God uses them and I've seen, you know, and now I'm kind of like, no, I don't see the benefit other than, you know, a lot of destructive fruit.

You mentioned the prophecy of marriage and that's one of my favorite ones when people tell me this because think about it. If you are one of these ministers doing this stage deliverance thing, you've got a 50, 50 chance.

So you're all just pretty high. Either yes, you're going to get married or no, you're not going to get married. It's 50, 50 and I would say that in the culture that they are promoting, the odds are much higher that you're going to get married because most people are going to get married in that scenario.

But one of the things that people don't really think through and I did after I left because I kind of saw both sides of it. I was on the receiving end of some of these things, not to the levels that you were.

We didn't have that level of personal prophecy but we did have some ministers traveling that would do this kind of thing. I think the funny part is I think I got prophesied or some weird word that I was going to be a minister and I have no inclination whatsoever to be a minister, right?

But that's one of the things in my background. But one of the things that I've noticed because I was on both sides, we were on the receiving end of it and I knew some of the people who were doing this kind of thing.

So I watched both sides and I didn't pick up on this until I left. After I left, I began to realize number one, the personal prophecies don't match the Bible at all. We had a commenter who said, I no longer believe in personal prophecy and almost respect.

bonded, but my answer to this is, well, we didn't even really had that. What we had was more like fortune telling, and the Bible condemns the fortune telling. But the other thing that people don't think about is this.

It's not so much about the prophecy to the person who is being prophesied for. It's about the audience who is watching this person prophesy over this other person. There's this element of hope that gets built up in the entire body of people when they see this.

They're like, oh my gosh, God is moving, God is powerful, and look at the power that this man on the stage has, and they'll often go talk to the person who has such a personal prophecy.

In fact, they will often watch what happens in their life to see, did it come true? And then if it doesn't, they just forget about it. But if it does, now this is the all-powerful wizard who's on stage.

So it's more about the display of the action than it is the actual prophecy. When that hit me, I began to realize why would God do that in the first place? Why would God make something so trivial, so insignificant that it only matters to one single person?

It doesn't edify them. It doesn't build up the body of Christ. All it does is prove that the minister has some kind of special power. I just don't see the God of the Bible doing that.

Yeah, that's actually an excellent point, too, because you can draw that parallel to the deliverance ministry as well. It's like, who is that actually benefiting that those dramatic convulsions and shaking and screaming or whatever it is?

It boosts the minister's profile, because it's like, whoa, they are so anointed, demons manifest around them, and people are getting set free or whatever. I mean, the number of times I've heard that in my life about, oh, you just go around this person and they're just set free.

The devil just can't stand to be around this person. It just builds up this lore, and I believe some of these people start to believe that that's true about themselves. You really are giving away your power agency to these people when you go, I don't know.

There's something about it, and I'm picking on Catherine Crick. I don't know much about her. She's kind of in the zeitgeist right now, people debating, is she biblical or whatever? But yeah, they build up this, I'm going to try the lore.

I don't know what it is persona, and so then other people, word of mouth or whatever, talk about it, and so you kind of go into this atmosphere, which you've talked about many times your podcasts, like expectant, they have the music, the lights are low, like it really primes you, primes your body, your nervous system, whatever your mind for that, you know, a parent with people who, you know, may struggle with mental illness.

who are in a dark spot in their life desperate for some answers or some kind of healing. And then you have this very charismatic looking person coming on stage, promising you healing, you know, that the Bible says God wants you healed and I believe he wants you healed.

And it's interesting, you know, because in this video, you know, she was like, oh, and she's like, God's healing you right now. They all say that, it's just so interesting because I'm like, that's like 5,000 times growing up and you know, watching Benny Hen on TV.

It's like God's healing you right now, God's delivering you. He is setting you free right now, it's happening right now. And you know, it's like, okay, well, I was healed and set free, but you know, five days later, it's like, I still have this sickness or I'm still mentally tormented or I still have this addiction.

And it's like, nope, nope, by faith that you don't speak that. You have to walk it out. And it's like a denial of this person's real. There's almost like this fear around speaking what is true, like reality, like what is actually happening to me or what I'm experiencing.

And I would say even my own life, I still, I have to, you know, be like, it's okay for me to say like, I'm having a bad day, you know, it's like, and I feel depressed and I'm just like about that.

And that doesn't mean I'm like opening the door to Satan or agreeing with the devil, like I'm saying, reality, you know, and yeah, and there's like this toxic positivity element in the sense where it was like, I'm all over the place right now, but like the speaking, you know, speaking the word and believing the truth or whatever.

But yeah, like you were saying, it's just interesting with the prophecy thing and the deliverance and healing are so tightly aligned in a sense of the same mechanism and how they use their tactics and then, you know, keep you honestly trapped.

And it's really interesting too how you get these true believers, like people just, because you want it for yourself, like you're like, well, they had a manifestation, like maybe they are healed. And so, you know, a lot of people are claiming like, well, I was healed, well healed of what?

Like where is the verify, like that's where, you know, like I guess you can't medically verify a demon was delivered from you or whatever, but like, you know, people get very defensive and I get it, but there is a level of like critical thinking and even if you believe something, it's okay to like question it just to, you know, make sure you're on the right path or verify it's validity.

You said you were all over the place, but I was actually connecting all of those dots. So I'm going to connect it for the people who are listening. It actually, for me, it actually does make sense because I've kind of processed this.

What happens is your life gets put on this, spiritual probation. You join into the movement, or like me, you were born and raised into it, and you are no longer allowed to experience things that other humans do in the same way that other humans do. So you mentioned your emotions. They want you to be happy, shiny people, because if you're not, you're not going to have other people joining in to become also shiny, happy people.

They, there are some people who join into the movement, and they start to put relationships on hold, careers on hold. Medical or psychological treatment is taboo, obviously. Education is a big one. In the group that we were in, they had varying levels. There were certain levels that you could not have education at all. And then there were others that, like the one I was in, the sect I was in, they just frowned upon it so strongly, and they preached against it so strongly that you just didn't want to do it. Yet they never actually condemned it. They,

they would just talk about those people who go off and get the educations. They usually leave the cult. Well, that did happen. I did get a, I got my associate's degree and I did leave the cult, but that's not why I left the cult. I left it because I discovered that this whole thing is, it's wreaking havoc in all of our lives. We've got to get out of this. But the point is this, once you're in one of these groups and you put the rest of your normal life on hold, they have essentially put you into this prison of their own making and of your own making.

It's actually both. The prison that they've built because they've got all the rules and boundaries and things you can and cannot do. But then you take it to new heights as a member of these groups because in your mind, you're trying to be just a little bit better than what they're saying. So there are people who join into this thing and they actually give themselves even additional rules and boundaries. I was talking with one guy who left the random cult and he would never, while he was in it, he would never wear a t-shirt with prints on it because that I guess made him

look more holy. And I was like, well, I wore Kansas City Chiefs t-shirts when I was in it. They never really preached against it. But in his defense, that's how the mind works. You want to become more holy. And they have taught you that it's the way you look, the way you act, the way you dress, the way you behave, the way you vote to all of your politics, all of this wonderful thing that they have wrapped up into what they call the gospel, which isn't the gospel. It's all these extra things. That is what makes you holy. So you try to go a little bit above and beyond that.

Yeah. It's funny. You talk about the way you dress and making holy. I've heard on this podcast a few times people mention Louis Engel's name, which I've never done a deep dive into him.

I don't think he has anything in his who knows. But you know, he really, whether you, you can argue like, oh, he's a great person. I don't know him personally, but my goodness, like he's had a big impact on the youth in the last however.

many decades, and as far as like the outward manifestations, the pausing of your life, you know, that's how they get you. It's like, I've got this great cause and he is a charismatic figure and he will lure you in like that father figure type.

And so you see, like you can pick out his disciples. They all like have that, you know, he's like big on the nasorites or whatever, like not cutting your hair. And whenever he talks, he does like the back and forth.

And so you can see like his little, I'm ever being at IHOP and seeing like his crew. And I'm like, oh, that's low angles crew cause they're like, ah, you know, rocking back and forth and praying, but a lot of these young people, they, you know, they get them and they, like you're saying they put their lives on hold and many have done it forever.

And I always think about the people who, as a teenager, I mean, I'm the same. Like I'm captured, this is amazing. I want to be a change maker, a revivalist, Lord, martyr me for your purpose.

I want, you know, to be, you know, someone important and, you know, for God's glory or whatever and bring people into the kingdom and blah, blah, blah, usher in the second coming a craze, revival, all those buzzwords or whatever.

And you get so wrapped up in that and then you make these pretty big commitments. But if you look, so if like you say, I go into like extreme missionary ministry in my 19 or 20, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

I'm just saying like, what is the life path? Like you can't endure that level of intensity for years and years and years and years and where is the support in that? And, you know, like places like Y-Wam or to every acute recruit youth and, you know, I have KC, it's like, it's just these funnels to have youth to basically be the grant work, the free labor and a lot of these young people, you know, throw away their life.

Or, you know, their youth, whatever you can God can redeem whatever you believe. But yeah, there's a lot of things. I remember I went to college, it was an undergrad. And of course found like the most charismatic church I could go to, it's like, and there is a guy in, you know, our young adults group, whatever, and really smart, he's like pre-med and he, you know, got saved through the campus ministry and you was so dedicated to like this church and to God and basically like quit school to go into ministry.

And I'm just like, and I remember at the time, like I was like, I don't know if I would do that, you know, but I'm like, wow, that's, that's pretty amazing. But always, I don't know how that he is.

Like maybe he went back to school, I'm not sure, but it's like, wow, you're such a smart person and like he wanted to be a doctor. But in that, and now I can see why like parents, because he's like, my parents think I'm in a cult.

And I'm like, how could they? They just don't know the truth. I'm like, well, yeah, if my child, He was like pre-med that wanted to be pre-med. It's very smart. All of a sudden it's like, I joined starch.

It became a Christian. And now I'm like, I want to drop out of school because I'm going to go in full-time ministry. It's like, I want it. But yeah, and then there's no accountability for that.

I'm sure you were to go later. Like, you prophesied over me that I was supposed to marry this person and it didn't work out. And it's like, well, we see in part. And this is just what I told what the Lord said.

It's how you walk it out or I didn't tell you to quit school. And so I think that's what's so frustrating. There's no accountability for those people. And so on the flip side, there is personal accountability.

And you do have personal agency. Then there is a point when you can decide, like, this is not working. Like, I need to step out. And I think that's a hard thing for people.

The deeper and they get and the longer they're there because it's like, if this isn't working and you start pulling on the thread, it's like, what else have I built my life on that's not working?

And it is. That's a hard thing to come to terms with. But I would argue that there's a level of, like, freedom of living your life. And being able, like, not everything has a deeper meaning.

And I'm not even necessarily saying, like, I'm not an atheist. I still attend a church or whatever. I mean, I have my own baggage with that. But yeah, you know, anyways, I'm saying this because there is room.

Like, if you believe in God, like, that is big. Like, there's things you just can't explain. But at the same time, like, you know, like, this is, you have one life, like, you just need to live it.

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You mentioned the no accountability as it relates to prophecy, and the interesting part about that is what you're describing with that is actually cold reading. I prophesied that you have this thing, but it's in part.

And then once I get more information, now I have the information, it's gonna get fulfilled this other way. I was wrong before because it was only had just a glimpse. And then it just goes on and on.

And what they're doing actually is cold reading, but they're not cold reading you, they're cold reading the actual events as they happened. So in the end, you can make anything say anything. If you, any prophecy say anything, if you do this.

And the interesting part about this is, you've mentioned also a few times in this podcast, the charismatic figures and how they operate. The funny part about that is after I left, and I started to deprogram, and I'm watching, we weren't allowed for the most part to watch movies and television.

There was a period of time my family did, but we weren't allowed really to watch it in the movement. Once I left and I started watching it, I'm watching things like, oh, Saturday Night Live.

There's the stereotypical use car salesman. It's in Saturday Night Live, it's in comedy movies, it's in action movies, Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. It looks and behaves just like that use car salesman that you go to the use car lot.

When you meet him and they start acting like that, you walk away, I want no part of this. That guy's gonna scam me out of my money. Well, they also portray the charismatic minister in the same way.

If you watch what's on the movies and the comedy shows, et cetera, and then go to one of these churches, it is exactly to a tee. That's how they act, that's how they behave.

And the average person who's not caught up in this mindset, they'll run screaming. No, I don't want that. That's just like a comedy movie. And this is a comedy of errors that you have in your church.

But we were so, it's like we had mule blinders on. We saw only what we wanted to see and we allowed ourselves to see. We could not look around at the world around us and see that this is just wrong what they're doing to our heads.

It's funny you say that too, because it's like you're primed for cults or high control groups or whatever. So I had left IHOP and it came back and I was low. I was kinda like, I don't know what to do with my life.

It was kind of wandering and a good friend of mine from high school was living in the area at the time. And she's a Christian and so I reached out to her and I was like, are you involved in a church or a Bible study and she was like, oh, okay, she was like a member of AMway and she tried to get me joined before and I was like, I don't wanna do that.

But she was like, oh, people might, she called her her business, my business. We all go to church together and I was so desperate for community or just like belonging that I was like kinda help my nose and I was like, I'll go hang out with you.

And at the time I was working at Starbucks and I was going back to school to get certified to teach. And the people in that group, they all came in to this Starbucks and so I was seeing them all the time and they were just so nice and then they started using like Christian language, like Lingo and I was like, hard believers. And then it was like, they didn't talk about the business at all, like AMway or anything like that. And they're like, Oh, just come hang out with us and you're welcome. Oh, your friends with, you know, my friend's name. I was like, yeah, you know,

so anyway, I would start hanging out with them, um, movie night. It's all kinds of stuff. And then there's a slow underlying pressure to join, like, whatever. And it was framed over time to me that it was a way, it's actually not a business to make money. This is God's like way to recruit people into the kingdom of God. And you are recruiting people into the kingdom of God. And isn't that so amazing? Like we're recruiting at whatever. Anyway.

And I mean, I, the reason my parents were horrified. I remember they're like, why are you in this? And I went to like, I was in it for like six months, like went to the conferences and was like, definitely at the time of true believer. And it was so hard for me. I was like, I didn't understand why my parents were against it because everything that this like multi-level marketing amway cult said was verbatim, the stuff that I'd grown up with with like the prosperity gospel language, the sewing seeds. And, you know, like God wants

your heart too. And God can, you know, use this and speak what you speak, you know, becomes reality and whatever it is. And also it was just so like in this intensity of like, we're laboring in the field for God. And actually, you know, people think we're in this business, but we're actually laboring for God's kingdom and all that language. And they're very much like, you know, if you go to their conferences, I don't know if it's still like this. This was back in like 2005, but they had like, kind of Copeland people like come speak. And

they take up an offering and it's this whole thing. And so, and we all know about multi-level marketing, whatever. But my point is that it was just such a hard thing for me to wrap my mind around because I was primed for that. And I, it's like, you know, my parents were so against it. And I was like, this is what this is the exact same like language pattern.

They use the biblical principle, you know, they quote the Bible. You know, and so of course, it would be, you know, a normal thing for me to, you know, step into whatever after. So, you know, there is a level where I have to be aware of who I'm friends with or talk to, or what, you know, just that awareness of that proclivity that I have to join a cult. You know, or I control group or, or something like that. But, but like to your point of what you were saying when you're watching TV, there are themes like patterns and themes that,

like they're, they have these caricatures for a reason because it's like that you can, you can pick it out. Like, and it's, you know, a lot of, you know, they're always like, oh, you know, they're being blasphemous or, you know, making fun of us or, you know, the devil is always trying to. But I'm like, no, like, you know, these, or observations that are true, that people have picked up on.

And I think one of my greatest struggles growing up too, not greatest, but I had such a hard time reconciling was like, okay, well, you're not allowed, psychics are bad, horoscopes are bad, tarot, all that, whatever, we'd be bored, blah, blah, blah.

You know, open towards the devil. But we can go and be prophesied over. You know, we can even go sign up for a prophecy room to have a prophecy given to us, healing rooms, you know, my parents did John G. Lake, healing rooms, all that stuff.

Like, you know, sowing your seed to get your healing. I mean, I've like emptied, I was 19, 20, emptied my savings account, which wasn't huge, but and wrote on the check like what I wanted, husband, it's just like, it's embarrassing, but it's true.

So if anyone's done this, like you're not alone, like, you know, it's what I tell my husband this now, and he's like, he did not grow up like this, so he was just like, I don't, I don't mind now.

Yeah, so just be grateful. But anyway, like you were saying, like when you start to use your brain and think and a lot of times these people in these movements scare you from that, because you're gonna somehow walk away from the faith or, you know, when I quit that MLM, I did, I told my friend, I was like, this is a cult.

They took offense to it, and then I had quit Starbucks, and I was teaching at the time, but I kept up with some of my old coworkers from Starbucks, and this one coworker of mine was like, she's like, they keep coming in, and they act like you've died, you know, because she knew that I was there, you know, they're trying to recruit these people, and they're just like, oh, pray for her, you know, she's, and I'm like, us is crazy.

It's like, it's because it's a cult. The financial cult are actually interesting when you think about the similarities, because not many people, not many people will call amway a cult, but it actually is, if you go read and research some of the things that cult experts say about amway.

I'm not a cult expert, but I've read stories from the cult experts that, you know, it's pretty hard to deny what they argue, but the financial pyramids, they have this way of slowly getting you to adopt what they want you to believe, much like, I've given this example before in the podcast, I'm somewhat of a prankster, and I'm not a person who takes immediate gratification in my prank, so I would come in after work and move this guy's desk just a millimeter closer to the wall every day for, it was like, I don't know, three to six months,

and he started feeling like the walls are closing in on him, he went on a diet, he lost, like, I probably hooked his health, he lost like 40 pounds on his diet, but it was a great prank, but it happened so gradually, he didn't catch what was happening, and that's how they operate.

They gradually give you just enough information to make. you hooked. And then what happens is they don't give you enough to verify the success. And what they do is things like if you start making money, well, the pyramid is working.

If you start not making money or losing money, well, the pyramid right now is in a state of holding and it's going to fulfill your money dreams later. It has this weird way of playing things out. And they give you all of these pieces just gradually until you've spent so much money that you realize, I don't think this is a good idea what I'm doing. You finally wake up. What's the same way in the deliverance ministries? If the symptoms that you have disappear, the deliverance worked. But when the symptoms returned to you, the spirit came

back. And how can you measure this? There's no way to measure it. If nothing changes at all, you had no faith or the spirit was, it was a spirit that needs a different deliverance ministry. You've got to go pay the other guy or you have this family curse from a family history that you didn't even know about. They always throw the blame somewhere else so you cannot really measure success in these things. And it's the way, whether it's a financial cult or a religious cult, any type of the cults, it's that way. And in the end for me, I look

at the way that it meant it changes the way you think and such a way that you start to, like we said at the beginning, you start to get so wrapped up in it, you don't see the world around you. While everybody else is watching you do this, they're like, stop spending your money on this financial cult. You're just doing it because you know that if I put another dollar in, it's going to pay back at 10 fold later. Yeah, that's so well said. It's so true that there is, like, yes, it's a reality bending. It's not willful ignorance. I'm going to turn to think of

it. It's just that you're you're staying stuck in it. And I think it's taken, unfortunately, like being in these systems, reading about it and then getting out and then being able to, like, and I'm so appreciative to people who have shared their stories that have written books that go on podcasts because that that's what ultimately has helped me. Like, he'll find a level freedom in peace in my own personal life, you know, many different resources or whatever, but it was the way I was the way I was brought up, primed for coercive control, like cults like this

with the Christian language, with the spiritual peace to it. And so it's like, it really is, like, you're not a learned helplessness, but it's like a double bind. Like, it's, you know, I'm stuck.

It's like, I'm not God. Like, I was raised to believe this, like, that, you know, God heals. And if you're not healed or if you're not set free, then, then I guess the reason must be you or, like, you were saying to, like, another thing.

It was always said to me if it wasn't an open door because I'm like, I have said the curse prayer. I've closed doors. I do not know what else it is. It's like, well, then you just are so anointed that the devil is trying to take you out.

And that's like, so it's like you're just, like I'm saying, it's like learn how I'm give up. Cause it's like, I'm trapped. Like there's a response for everything. And then there's a level of shaming and feeling like, oh, I feel guilty that I don't want to be a part of this anymore.

And I don't really want to be anointed. God, would you please set me free? Like I don't want this. And you know, there was a lot of that that I grappled with. Where it's like, I don't want this in the billing guilty for, for not quote, unquote, wanting it or whatever.

Well, and you build up this dependency on it. Yes. People who are in this type of movement, they become so dependent on these spiritual specialists that it's like, oh, there used to be this television commercial for I can't remember the name.

Madam, Madam, so somebody that you would call up and they would tell you all of your struggles.

It's the same kind of dependency. You get so dependent on the person who's going to tell you your future that you don't really recognize the world around you that is going to build your future.

And as many of the decisions you make now become your future. So if you're not making the right decisions, things happen that turn really, really bad for you. And the problem is you're coming to them because your situation is bad.

They're putting you in the state where you don't really realize the world around you. So you make these bad decisions. And then it gets worse and you think the demons more, it's infested you even more and you pray harder.

You do all of the, do all of the stuff, like they say. And it doesn't work. And in the end, you're like, well, why isn't this working, God? What's wrong with me? What have I done?

And you put the blame on yourself. And I'm going to go out a little bit on a limb and say that, yes, that's actually probably true. It is partially yourself because you're not watching the world around.

You're not making decisions planning for your future. You're looking to somebody to give you your future. And in the end, like I said before, it is fortune telling. No, it really is. That's so true.

And it does keep you in a loop because you're looking for the next emotional hire, the next dopamine hit or the next. You're outsourcing your agency. You're outsourcing to other people like tell me what to do.

And I did that a lot. Like, you know, I didn't know where to go to college. Like I didn't, you know, luckily, my parents were supportive in that. But I was just all over the place.

I've transferred school so many times and changed majors and quit. You know, I was going to be nervous and I quit that. And then I was going to do this and I quit that and, you know, over and over.

Just and it really hasn't been until, you know, my late 30s, early 40s, the era of trying to seek some level of stability and just also. just like an acceptance of reality. It's like, um, this is who I am. This is my life. Like I'm not anything special. Like I'm not insulting myself, but at the same time, I'm just like a human, like everybody else. And, you know, it's just, yeah, like an unlearning and then a reframing of like, I don't need to ask this person, you know, for in special insight from God or what is God

showing you, um, cause it really also does lead to like a level of like paranoia. There's a lot of, you know, with these deliverance ministries and prophetic ministries. A lot of these people, they have a foothold, you know, I've seen it in people's lives, especially like in the, um, political world too. Well, just in your life, but it's like, but it kind of bleeds into everything where it's like, well, we've got to fight this like huge conspiratorial, deep state or whatever, or, you know, this sex trafficking ring, some blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, but you also

like have a job and you're a mom and like, let's live our life, you know, like I, it's, there's not much I can do. I'm not saying to stick your head in the sand about reality, like, or whatever, or like what's going on the world around you, but it just, it leads into where I've seen people getting trapped in a lot of these, um, like QAnon-esque type, um, movements. And, and for me, that's what's been most alarming too, is to see the tie between these like charismatic leaders and like the dominionism and whatnot to, you know, political leaders and how that

impacts our, um, you know, the life that that we all live, like, and, you know, so people in this country might not be Christians or whatever, it might not think that way, but, um, and then that they recruit a whole nother, you know, generation of young people to whatever carry this mantle of like, you know, freedom fighters or what it is, you know, whatever it is. Um, and, you know, I'm not knocking, you know, I love this country. I used to teach history and I taught government, like I think we, you know, understand our, you know, form of whatever, um, but it's just more,

like what this movement, these ministries, what this might, it primes you for, like you see threat levels everywhere, you see everything is like a crusade, um, and you have like special knowledge or power or it leads to like where I was where, you know, I thought I was special for a long time and then like things weren't really working out. And so I was like, you know, what was that? You know, like I feel shame and, and, you know, um, and then you kind of repeat the pattern until you're able to see like, I need to stop joining these groups. You know, it's like,

let me pull myself out. What happens is the deliverance replaces some, that you could actually do to help yourself. Therapy is a big one. They do not want you to seek therapy because once you do, the therapist is gonna make the connection and realize, oh, they're under a deliverance ministry.

I understand the whole problem right now. That's usually what happens, but it goes beyond just therapy. I understand the complexities of the demonology, et cetera, behind that, but even medical care. I know families who their mother would still be alive today had they not rejected medical care for this deliverance tile ministry.

Medication, addiction treatment is a big one. There are people who really, really struggle and when you're in this mindset, like everything that I say right now is not gonna make sense to you if you're in that mindset, but once you escape this, you realize that there is a cause and effect with certain types of addiction.

There are people who are struggling so severely with mental health or other issues that they turn to something to self-medicate and it turns into an addiction of various types. Well, what happens is you go to these deliverance ministries and they'll call it a demon, that addiction that you have, but they're not really treating the thing that caused this.

And so had you gone to therapy or you're gone to some sort of addiction treatment plan, you might get off of this. Financial planning's a big one. They really don't want you to have that because the financial planner is gonna be like, you're giving all your money to this church.

You're not planning for your future. What's wrong with you guys? But it goes down the line. I can make a list of probably a hundred different aspects of your life that this takes away from you.

But in the end, it's just simply the fact that the robbing you of your lives and you have to get out, you have to be yourself, you have to understand that there's a world around you.

Even if you're still in the end time's mindset, the world's gonna end tomorrow. Well, think, well, what if it doesn't? Am I prepared for the next few years? If it doesn't, this hit me like a brick wall.

What happens now if I go all the way to retirement? I had zero dollars retirement whenever I left this thing. And I'm now, at age 37, I'm actually at age 40, I'm trying to build up what other people have had 40 years to build up from.

Well, minus the 18, I guess, but you get what I'm saying. They don't really plan for the future because they're caught up in this thing. And the world around them is still progressing. It's moving forward and you're not, you're stuck static.

Yeah, no, that's really good too. It's funny you're talking about, I was thinking about a lot of times, I'm sorry, I say this a lot, sort of repetitive, but it's usually the not very flashy, exciting dopamine hit answer to living life.

I mean, there's fun things you can do. Like, I'm not, you know, enjoying your life, but at the same time, it's like saving money for retirement isn't as fun as getting a prophecy that you're going to be, you know, God's going to bless you and be a millionaire.

But I see this in people that I know very well for decades have been... leaving for their breakthrough and are not, you know, they're not ready for retirement or anything like that. And it's like, well, waiting for God to come through.

When is he going to come through for us? And it's kind of like, well, you've had your whole life, like God gave you a brain. And it's a, you know, going back to even, you know, deliverance stuff.

And we've talked about this before too. The idea of like, you know, mental illness and, you know, specifically keep touching on like borderline personality disorder, just because I think that's so interesting to me.

But I know people in my life, you know, usually that comes from some type of trauma, you know, whatever it is. And it is curable, you know, in that not necessarily, like, even having to take a medication, it's curable in the sense of this therapy called DBT Dialectical Behavior Therapy, which is you've ever done it.

It's the most basic, well, I, you know, it's like child, child like almost, it's my friend's a psychologist and she was like, oh, yeah, that's usually what like, psychologist and training or whatever when they get stuck having to do the DBT groups or something like that.

But it is, it's the basic emotional regularly teaching emotional regulation is what it does. It's not like, you need to go get deliverance or the devil's attacking you or look how special you are.

And, you know, keeping up these delusions, it's like being in touch and learning how to regulate your emotions the way you would teach a child. And I mean, I've done it. It's been very beneficial to me.

But when you put a person like that in a deliverance type of deal, it can dredge up old traumas. It can, you know, make things, it can make it worse. And again, I'm not a therapist, but I've seen that in my own, you know, life.

And I've seen it with other people too, that continue stuck in the cycle. And at some point, there is a time where you have to sort of stop the insanity in a way and just sort of decide like, I want to, you can feel better, like you can feel peaceful.

There is like healing in that way, but it's gradual. And I would say that's more biblical. I think like the working out your salvation or just the gradual redeeming of things, like, you know, more so than you see these, like, you know, suddenly, suddenly curious.

And I think too, it really is like use an individual confronting yourself, like, you know, I, this feels good for the moment, you know, but is it really benefiting me, my family, or whoever, in the long term, and I would say no.

And one, you know, and we could, you know, talk about this towards the end, but like one thing, like I've said a million times, but I mean, I would love to, like, if anyone wants book recommendations or things that have helped me, but it's really been reading people's stories and looking at their patterns and being able to connect like all that happened to me.

And then seeing there, you know, what modalities that they use for healing, like, where are they now, um, in this sort of, you know, giving me hope too on my own, um, healing journey as well.

Yeah. So if anybody wants those recommendations, you can go to my website, contact me, just put a note in there that you're asking about the books that for any recommended and I can respond with them.

So thank you so much for doing this. Yeah. Thank you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.