Racism in the Early UPC

Music Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Charles Paisley, the founder of ChristianGospelChurch.org.

And today we have our very special guest, fellow researcher and historian, Bernie Wade. And together we're examining the history and the intersections in history between William Brannum and other key figures that either influenced or were influenced by the post-World War II healing revivals.

Charles, Bernie, I'm so excited about this podcast because we've, Charles and I have been leading up to the moment that we're about to discuss here. And we realized as we're researching William Brannum's early history, some of it's been erased. And what do you do with this?

And Charles and I have been, you know, going through all of the hundreds of newspaper articles and publications and life stories. And we found that most of the official biographies of William Brannum are completely different. They do not match each other. And elements of history has just simply been erased.

And while researching, we came across an article written by Bernie Wade describing William Brannum at the Mishawaka meetings as a healing revivalist. And that meeting, I believe, was 1934. And William Brannum's official story is that his healing ministry, his alleged gift of healing did not come until the very day that Israel became a nation, which according to history is 1948.

So we've got this 1934 to 1948 discrepancy. And we tried to talk through it and we actually, you know, discuss different ways in which we could spend this. And I thought, let's just go right to the source.

Let's bring Bernie Wade on the show and let's, you know, let's try to uncover what actually happened in history because it does appear to coincide with some key events in Pentecostal history. And Bernie Wade, who is, you know, is...

Over time has become a very close friend of mine has extensive research in Pentecostal history and Bernie, why don't I just let you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do All right, well, I'm Bernie Wade and the Chancellor of Life College and service President of International Circular Faith And we're a global Christian or Christian world network is what we say so You know our goal is just trying to help people Live for Christ should be simple, but unfortunately It's often complicated by men

Surprisingly so and you've got a book that's out recently and another one that's about to come out, right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Thankfully Yeah, new book new book was released on on Tuesday of this week. It's War on earth And essentially we deal with the fact that Satan declared war on women Shouldn't we look around our society. It shouldn't be a big surprise

Men are always trying to get the attention, but He really didn't care about the man. He kind of bypassed that didn't seem to be too bothered by the the new zoo keeper in God's kingdom But when that woman came along all the sudden She got his full and then divided attention and he had a Very horrible plan for her and her descendants and so That's all of us. So I write about you know why did why did this happen?

Why did he attack even? kind of ignore Adam And what we should be trying to do about it Right So we've got so I don't know how we'll fit all of this into one single episode, but we're gonna try I Thought we can get right exactly. I thought maybe I'd let Charles take the lead with Some of the research because he's been piecing together the timeline and I've been filling in with some of the gaps and Charles you have you have some main points that we're trying to Clarify and I thought I'd let you take the lead on this

Sure, it's real nice to meet you doctor Wade and I'm real glad to have opportunity to chat with you and ask a few questions We appreciate that and I know one thing that you know as John mentioned it was William Brown I'm really was not supposed to have any sort of a healing ministry before the 1940s and so it's very interesting When we found in your book that he was actually at the Misha walka meetings in 1934 in a in a van with or a truck with healing advertisements printed on it. So that really interested us a lot. And so I know at that point in time a UPC did not exist and

there were multiple other oneness apostolic type groups that were out there. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the different groups that were around at that time that went on to form the UPC and then specifically what was going on at those 1934 meetings when William Brannem attended and preached at them. Marvellous. Well of course the the book you reference is not the book that I talked about beginning of this broadcast. The book would be the time table apostolic and Pentecostal timetable of key events and that would be I believe

volume five I actually have seven volumes of that's whatever your volume covers the the 1930s. But of course you guys know that William Brannem was busy working in some level in Jeffersonville and Deanna's early as the 1920s. But it does it does historically pan out that he was in Mishawaka for a conference and interestingly enough I'm so interested in this topic that I will be speaking in that church in Mishawaka in October. I'm going to spend the weekend there they're going to pull out their archives let us say historic church it's been over a hundred years and let me look at the documents they

have and I'm open to find a picture that you know maybe somebody snapped you know a lot of times you guys know this as researchers and historians people don't know what it is you're looking for and you may not even know when you see oh yeah right it's been really really cool book pick for example one of the guys I'm I've researched and I'm looking for more research on is a missionary to Japan named Leonard Coot and he came to the United States in Texas and started the school in a church you know after he was a missionary in Japan he does

some called the World War II happened in like Americans in Japan so he left the mission field but you guys found a picture of William Brandon standing in front of some sign and in the corner you can read what looks obviously to be Leonard Coot's name so it's a cornerstone or something of the church so it's those pieces of history that are there and they're kind of like look over here you know so you can't argue with those so one of fortunately there is an eyewitness that is still living and it is Bishop GB Rouse daughter she's

way up in her 90s very sound mind I had opportunity to interview her and of a variety of things, primarily about the church, but then I was equally fascinated or once you talked about, yes, you remember when William Brannum came to their conference and of course, would begin to narrow down the time.

You have to kind of understand what that church was, what it represented. Why Brannum went there? I'm not sure other than it was a large church for the large following and they had every year, they had a two week Bible conference.

I think they called it. So for two weeks, people from all over the country, probably the world were gathering there in a big meeting, you know, several hundred people. And for some reason in 1934, William Brannum showed up there.

Sister Willoughby described, you know, the vehicle he was driving. And so then I looked at the makeup of that meeting because if you will, reference Charles, Brannum shows up in the mid 1940s and then newly formed white supremacist organization, the United Pentecostal Church.

And my friends in the United Pentecost Church won't be happy that I just said the newly formed white supremacist organization. But I am happy for them to rebuttal my historical research on the topic.

I do have another book in Red to Be Released. It's called Legacy Charles and Sarah Parin that we released in October. And the story for all Pentecostals is not about pretty when it comes to race relations.

So William Brannum, who we know, he doesn't have a very pretty history in race relations. He shows up in Mishawaka at a love fest for multiculturalism and having read and listened to some of his tapes and read some of his comments about what he really thought about people of other colors.

I'm sure he was quite shocked because I can tell you that GB Rouse kind of trademark was that he was very multicultural. It's very important, historically, because the South Bend, Indiana area had some very horrible riots and not as extremist Tulsa, but a lot of black people simply left South Bend rather than deal with the racial violence.

Many churches would not welcome people of color to their churches, but not what started out. Originally, where our church was called Midway Tabernacle and just off the top of my head, I don't know when they changed it.

I believe today it's called Apostolic Temple, but they are a continuation of the Apostolic faith message that started in... and the Topeka Kansas revival where it really became known and spread to the whole world.

So Rao was very much in the imprimature of Charles Parme where he was embracing of both men and women as ministers embracing of people of all colors. Didn't matter to him if they were Japanese or Mexican or Blacks.

And so that was the environment of Bishop Rao's church. And more importantly, in 1925, he was ordained a bishop in the Pentecostal assemblies of the world. Now there is a group that exists today called the Pentecostal assemblies of the world, but it is a reorganized effort that group, the original P.A.W. went into a merger, got into a serious fight between the Blacks and the Whites.

The Whites left and became one of the arms that formed the United Pentecostal church. And the other arm, of course, eventually in the early 1940s reorganized. Again, as the Pentecostal assemblies the world picking up the charter sadly today, none of those groups embraced the imprimature that was brought by Charles Parme to bring the gospel to every people.

So, Brandama arrives in 34 in Mishawaka to a meeting that I'm sure he didn't really like. I can't imagine that he would have liked the multicultural environment. Some names, if you're looking to see who might have been there.

There's a bishop named Silas S-I-L-A-S is his last name. Very prominent man. He happened to be Black. I'm sure he was a speaker. And he also is a man who preached Bishop Rouse funeral.

Rouse was so well received in the Black community that when the most famous, if you talk about what we would call the apostolic Pentecostal movement, the most well-known name that is appreciated by people of all colors is Garfield Thomas Haywood and then in Apples, they named it named a street after him.

He was a very amazing individual, very talented writer. I believe he worked for a newspaper there named in Apples for a while. And GT Haywood was the leader, even though he didn't necessarily have the title of most of the time.

He was the leader of the early Pentecostal symbols of the world. He's the guy that really got it done. It was, they moved it from the West Coast to Indianapolis, rented buildings. When they would rent a building for their conferences in Indianapolis, they just couldn't hold the people.

Where's that many people come? It was very, very multicultural, very inclusive. And for- People like GB Row, it was wonderful, obviously, for people who don't like people of color, that's probably a really bad place to be.

So there was a split in 1925, and that would become the beginning of the United Pentecostal Church. A guy named Howard Goss, who has, you can read his own history, he's always on the wrong side of racial strife.

He led the charge to divide from the P.A.W. primarily because G.T. Haywood, being a black man, had risen in that group to be the secretary. If you guys have been licensed by an organization, generally the secretary signs the ministerial license, and there's absolute historical documents that say, they didn't want A.W. to sign their documents, which is just, from my vantage point, it's, I can't imagine.

Can't imagine saying, I don't want to be part of this group because I don't want a black man signing my documents, but that's where they were. So this is the group, and Row is a big part of it.

Haywood died in 31, so it would have been previous to Brandon's visit. And I think, this is my personal opinion, no evidence. I think he, someone had probably told him, that it was a group that might be right for harvest.

People were looking at, when Haywood died, everybody was trying to see if they could get a piece of the pie. And in fact, they reorganized, emerged, and reorganized in 31 after Haywood's death. Still remained at that time a very multicultural group.

But there were a lot of vultures, looking to see if they could pick up the pieces. I think that's what brought Brandon there. Somebody had told him, or, who knows, there may have been somebody with him that was somehow connected, he becomes pretty good friends with Howard Goss later on.

I've got a lot of quotes in my time table from the 1940s where Howard Goss is singing his praises. Obviously, after the halo incident in San Antonio,

the United Peninsula Church preachers, they were all enamored with them. They had bought into the special brand of mysticism that he and his friend from Indianapolis were selling. And I can't think of that.

Chaplain Ray, right? Yeah, Ray Hoagstra. Yeah, Ray Hoagstra had also come to Indiana and I think the same about the same time as Brandon began to make his move, about 22, build a massive church in Indianapolis that is still there.

Has done a little better job being inclusive, but was really, as far as I know, the largest church in the newly formed white supremacist United Pentecostal Church.

And he got off into mysticism. He's got to, you know, he's telling people that the little David Walker is levitating. And it's interesting. I actually did a whole study on levitation because you know, those people think, well, yeah, that was, look how powerful God's levitating him.

And I'm like, yeah, I did the same thing. Where's that in the Bible? What do you mean? You know, you're gonna tell me this, kids levitating and nobody in scripture did it. You know, there's so much there, Bernie.

First off, I have to say, I went into your research with a, you know, me. I always start out by nature, highly critical, and then try to separate all of the fictional stuff and see what actually happened.

That's how I researched. So I went in, even your research, I went very critical. And as you and I have discussed openly, I'm not a Charles Fox Parham fan by no means, but after studying your research and reading the book that's about to come out that you, the third one you mentioned, you changed my mind on quite a few things after reading that book, history.

In the way that William Brannum has erased his history, people against Charles Fox Parham have rewritten his history. And some of the biggest ones, as you know, the claim that he was in the Ku Klux Klan, you completely convinced me that's incorrect.

And he's, I think he's charged with, he's not charged with, but he is accused of sodomy, which I'm now understanding from you. That's also not quite right. It does appear based on, well, I don't want to give the surprises away that's in the book.

I'll let the people read the book and you can find out what is the real truth here. But like I said, there's so much there. William Brannum, I don't know how much we've talked about this yet, but he was in a Pentecostal sect that Roy Davis, who was the second in command for the Ku Klux Klan, he was the ambassador, the Royal Ambassador for the Knights of the Flaming Sword, which appeared to be in opposition to GTA Woods victim of the Flaming Sword.

And they're trying to grow this Pentecostal organization. And I think you hit the nail on the head as an opportunist going to Rouse Church would have been very strategic for the organization. And Brannum, at the time he went there according to your timeline, puts him in Roy Davis's church as basically the bishop of the Pentecostal Baptist Church of God's sect.

So, then, from there, it's like this spider web of connections. There's not even enough time to discuss all the names that you just mentioned, but researchers can go back and go through each one of these men, and you can see the spider web of all of these connections of men that some of them, as you said, were highly racist individuals.

It's really interesting the stuff that you shared there, because, you know, you're spot on that there, there's something, you know, in very early Pentecostalism, I mean, obviously you had William Seymour, you had Charles Parham, you had, there was a, there was very racial openness at the very beginning of the Pentecostal movement, but, you know, by the time you've come into the 20s, there's definitely signs that there's attempts to segregate Pentecostalism, and I think you have some great documentation along that line, and when it comes to that, it appears very strongly that at least in the 20s and 30s, William Brannum is strongly

on the pro-segregation aside of the Pentecostal movement, and that racial strand of thought stays in Pentecostalism into the 40s, for sure, and I'm, you may know this, Bernie Wade already, but, and this is one area our research is heading into wards, and we're going to do some episodes on this, but Wesley Swift actually came out of Amy Simple McPherson's church in on the West Coast, Wesley Swift, the father of the Christian identity movement, the man who is responsible for the most prominent white supremacist Christian ideology in the United States came out of Pentecostalism, and his white supremacy views were picked up

and were quite prominent within the latter reign movement, and within parts of the Pentecostal, overall Pentecostal movement, and William Brannum stayed somewhat connected to these views for his entire life, and it's just very interesting because he does seem to come back in and be somewhat multicultural starting in the 40s, and, and as you mentioned, I just want to hold up for our viewers if they didn't see it already. Here's a little David Walker that you mentioned, levitating off the ground, and, and it's, it's incredibly interesting because this is actually how William Brannum, one of his vehicles to rise to fame is he was David Walker's

side show at first, it seems. He was actually touring with a little David Walker, in little David Walker's tent with with Hockstra, like you mentioned, here's a picture from 1947, and we have here a little David Walker, and William Brannum standing off to the side with him, and that's in the St. Louis Keel Auditorium in 1947, when William Brannum had meetings there, and so, in nineteen forty seven. That's a good question. Maybe you can answer that for us. I tried to be a good attorney and they were asked question. Can't answer.

Keel Auditorium is the is the most preferred location for the United Pentecostal Church. They will have most of their major meetings. They are at Keel Auditorium. I believe even their organizational meeting was in Keel Auditorium in St. Louis. So, well, David Walker is so David Walker is their host is there.

This is a preferred place for the for the United Pentecostal Church and I have no doubt that a large percentage of that crowd is the white base of the United Pentecostal Church. You know, one of the things that's interest to me about William Brandham as it is about other similar shaman and I hope I'm not being too forceful, but that's who I who I know that he is is that here we are. William Brandham has been dead for 60 years. Right.

Something like that. Yes, I was a baby. I know I got this gray hair, but I'm not really at old. So, William Brandham has been dead for 60 years and the people that call themselves the church cannot decide whether or not he was a shaman or a man of God.

He's very frightening. Yeah, it tells me that there's very little discernment in the church and if you if you look up the word channeler. You will give you almost a textbook definition of William Brandham. It's like this guy was a channeler. It was channeling spirits.

I have said to people, not I want to say when I was growing up, William Brandham was the devil. So, it was no problem for me. It wasn't like it wasn't until I began to expand my sphere and talk to people that I was like, wait a minute.

So, you know, and people would challenge my perception William Brandham. But here's the interesting thing. In 1947, the United Pentecostal Church makes William Brandham their poster boy. Well documented, you know, their chairman Howard Gauss is, you know, saying how wonderful William Brandham is and they're going to his meetings and supporting and he's preaching the whole summer of 47.

He's preaching predominantly in the United Pentecostal churches and not just in their churches, but in their all of their main churches. You know, he's preaching for a hoax. He's preaching their major conferences, their camp meetings. He's preaching for kids and some others. I mean, it's just like, oh my God, this guy is the second coming, which I think he thought he was. I didn't say he was the second coming.

So, and I think Robert Dordy, the one who lifted William Brandham into fame, Robert Dordy, he was in St. Louis at that time as well. Okay. Well, that Robert Dordy, I know, I don't know him well, I met him as, when I was much younger, probably 45, 50 years ago, I did not know that connection until I began to see it.

And you also showed it when I saw his name, the first time connected to Brandham was like, I wonder if it's the same Robert Dordy from Central City Kentucky, because that's where it was the time I knew it.

But I'm not surprised because these guys as, you know, to use an old look, who isn't worth thick as thieves. So Brandham, you know, Brandham just races to the center of the pack in the mid-40s.

You know, he was looking for a group, he was looking for more victims, he needed some new ones, he and Hoekstra, look, Hoekstra's a golden boy, Hoekstra could walk on water in those days.

So nobody's going to connect her question, anything Hoekstra does. That's really why it takes such a toe hole. That's why the David Walker thing becomes such a big deal. And that's why Brandham becomes such a big deal in the United States, church has no one, no one cares.

And hey, look, these guys are all white. You know, we don't have to worry about the darkies, because we got rid of them. And, you know, so 47, Brandham's their hero, mid-70s, they're running the opposite direction, denouncing the same group, United Pentecostal Church.

Yeah, right. Right. He's not less white, but he's got off into crazy, more crazy stuff, and he's made it. So now they're calling him a false prophet, blah, blah, blah, blah. But strangely enough, many of their followers still to this day, you know, are, you know, I really, I don't know something, something with some Brandham might.

So people who are uninformed, you know, who just live maybe in the general world or not, don't live for Christ, or them to think that William Brandham was something special, doesn't really bother me.

But the people that claim to know Christ, think that this guy is something special, I mean, I think Judas will have a better case before God, and William Brandham, you know, I think Judas, I think when I look at Judas, Judas was a guy who just wanted the kingdom to come right now, and it wouldn't really go in his way, a Brandham was a guy who thought he was the kingdom.

Yeah. I think the biggest thing that I discovered from reading your research about this time period and the key players, Raymond Hoekstra was just a name that I, you know, I came across several times, and I knew he was an early campaign manager.

But your research, as you just said, points out to the fact that Hoekstra took what most people thought of as... You know just revival was in religion and turned it into showmanship and he had you know lights camera action here's the boy that can levitate here's here's your next is almost like a circus if you really think about it and Hoxtra stays well connected to William Branham well into the 60s whenever branda we've just released this research in another podcast with a long for truth guys but Whenever William Branham is supposed to be under this alleged

Cloud of seven angels that you see all these Brannamites praying to William Brannam actually is going to save a transsexual From death row a transsexual prostitute and you have this weird Conglomeration of famous people there trying to save the transsexual prostitute and what's interesting is there are actually two people there There is the transsexual and there is Caroline Lima his his prostitute partner. She's female The transsexual was the nephew of the guys that took the halo photograph and They were two counterfeiters that took the photograph and They were well connected to the Pentecostal Circles because they took Brannam's halo photograph

So all of these big names and I'm fixing to drop a big one here that I've not even told you yet All these big names come into Houston to save the transsexual Don't even mention the girl that's also on death row that committed the same crime She was in the saint. There's a three-day Orgy with a you know a guy in Houston and they shot him during during the act All these Pentecostals gather you've got Chaplin Ray who kind of organizes the whole thing Raymond Hoekstra William Brannam leaves his hunting trip that he's supposed to be under this cloud and

The other big name is John Osteen was there with them and we actually have some recording of the guy's name was Leslie Douglas Ashley before he had a change to become Leslie Perez the female he was a You know transsexual crossdresser who claimed to be Elijah as an as part of his insanity plea and as you know William Brannam also claimed to be Elijah So all of these names. It's just fascinating the way that it spider webs into entertainment and The way that it comes together doesn't even seem Religious but they're using the word Jesus now and then and making it sound like it might be religious if you know what I'm saying

Yeah, and back kind of just centered on Hoekstra It's interesting Hoekstra has a very strong miss you walk a connection as well Because there was a minister that's Yeah, he there's a guy who administer very often for for for Bishop or out there and Misha walka and I'm just witness off the top of my head, but I believe his name was Bishop, his last name was Bishop and Raymond Hoekstra started liking his wife real well and so until she became his wife, it's kind of how you do it in the if you're in the upper echelons

of the United Pentecostal Church. Peeons in the United Pentecostal Church, if you if you have a marriage problem, you're you're gonna be out, but you're in the upper echelon, they can overlook that. So when you look at Calvary Tabernacle, I want to make it clear, I'm not saying I am, but I'm not it's not coming from me that Calvary and Tabernacle is considered as they say a flagship church in the United Pentecostal Church. It's in their history, you can google it, it's it's right on Calvary Tabernacle's website that they're a flagship church and Hoekstra went there in 37

to take that church. It was pastor by a guy named Oscar Hughes, they called him Pappy Hughes. Very very humble from everything I've been a research, I'm very good guy, but so really strong, but really strong mainstream in the Calvary Tabernacle Church and Hoekstra shows up in 37 and else. And it's he's all about Hocus Pocus from day one, he's doing whatever he can do, and there's evidently very charismatic, drawing people doing, so that William Branham would be sucked into that or they would be sucked into each other's fear. They were they were birds of a

feather. The tragic thing is that no one in the United Pentecostal Church could figure that out and they'll make a big deal of the fact that in 49 Hoekstra resigned, but Hoekstra only resigned because first of all, Nathaniel Urshan who was his assistant pastor was trying to get his church. I mean, let's just say it like it was and I'll get some Nathaniel and people see this.

He was trying to get his church and Hoekstra was involved in this big cork battle to a control of David Walker. I don't know the details. I've never I've read it and it's not really something I care about. The whole thing with David Walker was a sham. I mean, your your prostituting really this poor kid who I have no doubt had probably some real gifting from God. I think he really did. I think they found a kid who was uniquely being used by God and they prostituted it for two cases full of money. I've got some of that research published on the website in the

newspaper section. You can read through, but it looks... like that Hoekstra and possibly random through the connection had custody of the kid and the mother of the child had to fight to get her son back.

Well, the kid is I understand it. And I'm just my understanding. It was from California. Right. Hoekstra came to come to contact him. I have to assume that the connection was that he was connected to a United Pentecostal church in California.

Hoekstra was a big deal in the United Pentecostal church. These people ask for help. We've got this kid. He's special. And Hoekstra sees another good operator, like a true circus master. He goes, hey, here's another act for my show.

And they're making a lot of money with this kid in short order. The parents then all of a sudden, they gave him some kind of guardian ship or whatever. The parents didn't all of a sudden realize, hey, we're not getting, we're not getting our cut.

So when you read the court documents, they're all fighting over over the money. And it's a big deal until it looks like they agree to a payout. Looks like Hoekstra agrees to pay them.

And you guys, maybe this guy's still alive, I think I believe David Walker is still alive. I don't know if he would open up and talk to you about any of it, but it would be an interesting interview.

I actually have had the chance to speak to him a few times now. I think he did pass away, but I could be wrong on that. But yeah, he's very adamant that he did spend, what was it, five minutes in heaven or something like this?

He had some sort of experience that if you talk to him, he won't deny. I don't believe he levitated. And as I mentioned to Charles on the last episode, I was not aware of the levitation thing when I talked to him.

Otherwise, I would have just grilled him about it. How did you do it? What did you do? But I did not. As a circus act, there's no doubt. Now, you know, you know this, but there's another part of this unholy triumvirate in Indianapolis.

And he is working in the assemblies of God. They deny this like the United Pentecostal Church. Here's another white supremacist organization with a little bit older history. And many of the players in the United Pentecostal Church and the assembly of God are the same people at times or they have similar history, similar DNA.

And they've got this guy over on Laurel Avenue. I believe it's called Laurel Avenue, assembly of God. And the deal there is, it's almost the same thing as how a holster comes in. It's an older preacher up in years and they're looking for, you know, the new young guy to come in and help their church.

And so they... of this guy named James Jones and he is having services and he's not the pastor so he don't get the Sunday pulpit but he's doing the midweek stuff and same kind of stuff that Hokesh was doing that Brandham's doing.

The only problem is the assembly of God realizes this guy is going to take over if we don't stop him. So they just come in, vote in a new pastor who just shows Jim Jones the door and what the assembly of God wants to do is they want a virtual signal and pretend like that they came in and dealt with Jim Jones and that's why he left their group.

No, you came in and said he wasn't going to pass you your church because he wasn't one of your blood people and this was one of their main churches in Indianapolis and so they showed him the door.

If he had been willing to stay on and do other stuff for him, they would have let him stay. Instead he goes and gets a license with a splinter group from the assembly called the independent symbolies of God and he has a license with him.

Yeah. And they were that Laurel Street tabernacle that you're talking about. I've actually have a lot of research on it on my website as well and they were closely tied to the message of William Brandham.

I don't know how much I've explained to you about this, Bernie, but they're different stage personas and they're a different quote unquote messages. The message that our family grew up in when before we escaped this cult was nothing like the previous versions and iterations and it actually was the name itself even was derived from quote, ladder rain message and the Laurel Street tabernacle that Jim Jones was participating in was until the event that you mentioned was very closely affiliated with ladder rain.

And like you said, they came in, they booted Jones out to the street. They brought in some other people and just totally changed that church. It was at that point Jones got ordained into the independent assemblies through Joseph Mats and Bozay who we also have extensive research on.

He was a close partner and eventually this is about to come out. It's not out yet. Maybe by the time this podcast is released, but Jones and Mats and Bozay basically became the replacement campaign managers for William Brandham.

After he lost Gordon Lindsay, Mats and really become his primary publicist at that point. Yeah, Lindsay's a big deal and Brandham doesn't really seem to get it. He doesn't realize that he's without Lindsay, he's really going nowhere this.

Here's one of the things guys with ladder rain that I got myself sideways on and I had to re-redu some of my research because I really... the letter rain is a word yeah it's a concept and it is it is a part of several movements so you have to really get into um and see what exactly and frankly what I just for the most part have done is stay away from it because uh what most of what people try to connect random to is letter rain came out of Saskatchewan and it was simply uh it it was kind of like the

Toronto blessing uh it was just a a little temporary movement and i i i i i'm not going to make a judgment on whether the people were good, bad or indifferent that's up to god um but people try to connect will you and random to that and i won't deny that maybe their ministers were infatuated with random because you know he was as big named in their mind big guy that was you know all these miracles and signs and wonders um but he wasn't connected to it and the whole concept of letter rain is actually older than what we would call the pen to call some movement

uh we find i found Lily and Tisslethweight uh whose Charles Parme sister in law talking about letter rain and we're talking about 1900 um so it and it was all really based you guys know on that scripture of talking about the former and the letter rain uh uh uh right so but that's rain r a i n there's also letter rain r e i g n we're going to be spelling here um so it's it's really it may be a good topic for some of this study and say what was the what was letter rain about how many different versions of it were there um but you'll see that because

it's scripture you'll see that woven through a lot of different movements and it's kind of a really weird weird ball of string you know it's kind of like I always smile uh when people come to two services and they get up to absorb or speak and they'll go and the sick kind of glory is falling and and they think they think this is what happens a letter rain did they have invoked some wonderful special word you know all cults need special words um when chicana is

like dinging in the gang chicana is a if you go if you just google it you'll be like oh my god what have I stumbled into you know but it's in strong concordance therefore everything in strong concordance is is the gospel um but it's not in the bible we're going to always take people like to get we just stay in scripture um you know and so I don't get all weirded out when someone says chicana uh but you know I we teach we teach people not trying to indoctrinate people trying to educate people and so this

out of where we want to use your, but if you're just trying to revoke a response from the crowd, people think it's special, they thought, well, you're a brand almost special. They thought David Walker was special.

And they probably weren't as special as you two guys. We're going to have a whole episode on Laterane and we will only skim the surface of it. We actually decided to dive in and try to understand it and because again, the message, the quote unquote message of William Brannum is shortened from the Laterane message.

And we've not published all of this history yet. We're going to and we have some testimony from a key individual who was in the formations of later, he's the son of a guy that was in the formations of Laterane.

But you're right. William Brannum wasn't in the main sect Laterane. It was the Laterane Revival, which led to the Laterane movement. And at the same time, you have this going on, you had the voice of healing revival, which Brannum was the head.

There was a period in time, a brief period from 47 to I think 48 or early 49, where the two movements merged and they became one and the same. If you went to the voice of healing revival, you were going to the Laterane Revival.

And then when they splintered into numerous, numerous countless cults, like you said. And they're each claiming some variation of this. William Brannum was there in the onset, according to the eyewitnesses that were about to publish.

But he was teaching them how to do the mysticism. Brannum had this trick where he would hold a string in a bracelet and say, now use your faith and move the bracelet and the bracelet would start moving, which is a trick.

You know, I don't frequent bars, but if people go to bars, it's like a bar trick, right? Here, move the bracelet. He's doing this kind of thing in the early inception of Laterane movement.

He's training them how to do mysticism. And then what happens is he tries to inject his manifest sons of God theology into Laterane, and it actually sticks through, I can't remember the guy's name, Houghton, I think it is, Arn Baxter's secretary gets involved in the Laterane, Brannum convinces him that God is manifesting himself as in the fivefold ministry as apostles, priests, prophets, etc.

And that the return of Jesus Christ isn't what everybody thinks. It's coming as this movement, which literally becomes the new apostolic reformation later. So it's this fascinating history much bigger than this episode can hold.

But yes, William Brannum was deeply, deeply connected to Laterane for a brief period time. I'll put it like that. That'll be fun to dive into when we get there, John. Because you're exactly right. Laterane is, you could look, the message is deeply influenced by laterane. And you look, there's so many splinter groups. Some of the more prominent ones are like sandfights, the move. John Robert Stevens, the walk. Right. There's the walk. There's the move.

There's the message. There's, there's something about these catch phrases that all spun out of laterane and forms all these different groups. But I got one more question. I'd like to ask Dr. Wade for a week, for we wrap things up. But I know William Brannum, he was especially popular among the apostolic Pentecostals and the UPC in particular. And I know my own family was largely in the UPC before they converted into the message of an influence by William Brannum. And from your perspective, what, what was William Brannum's appeal to those people, you think during that period

of time, during the forties, during the fifties? Well, first of all, as you well know, there is life after the United Pentecostal Church. My dad, my dad held license with the United Pentecostal Church. It was kind of fun. We had a gentleman who visited our conference last weekend. He said he was in the United Pentecostal Church. And I looked him dead in the eye, was having just a little fun with it. But I said, it's okay. You can still be saved. But in many ways, I'm not being funny.

The United Pentecostal Church has developed a very special cult. And if you're not in their cult, they don't like you. There are some cracks in that, however. There are some people that are going, you know, what, enough is enough. We really cannot do this anymore. You know, they're realizing that their group is, what are you going to call it, if shielded themselves from the whole world.

You have to get, I'll try to just do this quickly because I know you're bumping into your hour. The United Pentecostal Church is very complex. But yeah, it's not. Most people in the United Pentecostal Church think they're the continuation as Nathan Orisham. We are the continuation of the Church at Jerusalem. It's kind of like Kazarian Jews were told they were, they were a continuation of Abraham. They didn't realize that they were converts in year 1000 and beyond. So when you look at the United Pentecostal Church, they came out of several messes, merges, fusses. But they emerged

at the white version of the movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901 at the Charles Parme. Parme, of course, was completely unwilling to make the blacks and Hispanics and the Japanese and others that they've considered undesirable to leave. So they formed the assemblies of God first.

And the assemblies of God as really a job of, you know, it's okay to have black missionaries, but we really don't want any inner churches that we don't have to. And you talked about, you talked about the division of Pentecostals, and because we all have some Pentecostal connectivity, we don't realize that the division is much larger. Pentecostals do not have any special connection. We're victims of all the same thing. It was Protestants primarily, primarily the Methodistic Piscobal movement that moved this nation to end slavery. They thought that Abraham Lincoln was the savior from that vantage point. They backed his election. They backed the Civil War, the overthrowing

of slavery, and but once that slavery had ended, they did not agree on what to do next. Most, many of them, most of them, I will say, did not see black people as their equal. So it's fine to free them. There's a kind of a fun, fun line in Mel Gibson's movie, The Patriot, where he goes, or one of the characters says, what? First, we're going to free them. Then we're going to teach them to read. And these same issues we're going on with women in society.

You're going to give them the right to vote, all this stuff. So it's very complex, but it's not. So I always say, after the Civil War, white people adopted the separate but equal Jesus.

I can't find him in the Bible, but in fact, almost every American denomination has a black calendar park. It was the separate but equal. So you have Baptists that also have, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention, which is a total joke to me. This is a group that organized particularly. So white people go to own black people. But yet there's a black Southern Baptist group. There's black Methodists. And they were forced to form their own separate but equal groups, which were just separate. They were unequal. And the Church of Christ, the holiness movement, and Parham is painted as a holiness guy. When in fact, he's a Methodist.

Parham's message never moves from Methodism. His wife's a Quaker. He never moved from their vision. And that's not generally accepted by the separate but equal Jesus people. So we have first the assemblies of God. And then they start fighting again for control, start arguing about what is the, they count as a doctrinal argument. Walter Hollingway, one of the foremost experts in Pentecostal history, says how convenient for the assemblies of God that they were able to count counts their racial problems into a doctrinal argument. And they make a big fuss about the 1950s in St. Louis. Talk about key a lot of touring back to St. Louis.

certain that was in Keele, but it probably was, and they're arguing about what you say when you baptize someone, as though any of us has the power to remit sins, and the person being baptized is not more important than what I might say.

Now, I wanna get stupid, obviously you can't invoke Buddha and say this as a Christian baptism, but this is what they were arguing about. And it was a straw man. The real deal is a straw man, because I know assembly of God pastors today that's simply baptized in Jesus' name.

Why, it's into the Bible. You have prominent guys like T.D. Jakes that baptized in Jesus' name. Why, you ask him? He says, it's in the Bible and we move on. But these guys decided to make it a big doctrinal fight.

And the reason they mainly made a doctrinal fight is the champion of the, what they wanted to call the Jesus only arguing was a black man named Garfield Thomas A. Wood. They were happy for all those in that faction to follow him and give them back their all white group because they weren't quite sure how to retain what they had created.

Yeah, I was shocked. It was your research actually that pointed me towards A. Wood because there's a lot of indoctrination that happens in these types of religious cults that we escaped and one of the indoctrinated quote truths that William Brannum brought divinely to the world was that he taught them how to properly baptize.

And we literally were indoctrinated to believe this originated with William Brannum. And I met you and started, yeah, I started looking through your research and you set me on G.T. Haywood and oh no, he's just literally copied G.T. Haywood, the black man and he's in a white supremacy group.

He's actually, and if you really think about it, he was successful in this. He was trying to limit the historical value of G.T. Haywood by claiming Haywood's right. Haywood is one of the reasons why that one is Pentecostalism exists.

Probably the primary reason, if you think about how famous he was, William Brannum tried to limit that fame by claiming Haywood's doctrinal baptism. And then I think he adds one word to the baptism phrase or something, but he's literally just robbing from Haywood, claiming it and then around the globe, you will find people who have been influenced by or are still in this cult of personality who believe that it was William Brannum who brought the onus baptism to the world, which is completely incorrect.

Yeah, William Brannum added the word Lord. You have to be baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Well, it's interesting because Haywood definitely, I think, brings forward the concept of oneness. It was a red badge of courage fighting against his white supremacist enemies in the assemblies of God and so he's trying to differentiate what were they disagree?

But the reality is that baptism, of course, other than being in Scripture, which is the most important place, any of it should be, was brought forward by Charles Parham. People don't know that because even those like me who are raised in a group that baptized in Jesus name, we were told, you know, Parham was the enemy because, you know, how dare he have black people, you know, like William Seymour, William Seymour was a scourge to these white people.

That's why the fuss with the zoos of street happens. That's why they cut them off. They didn't want to be associated with the darkies over there in California. So, you know, this is just unacceptable. So, Heywood, you're right. Heywood emerges. When you use the word oneness, he emerges as the most prominent oneness minister, fascinating because it's in the 1920s, any day inapolis when the state of Indiana has a governor who's prominent in the Ku Klux Klan.

So, what he fought against there is vicious, but Parham, when you look at Parham, he did not believe in baptism. He was a Methodist and kind of more online Methodist. So, they baptized infants sometimes and you could get baptized, but it wasn't necessary. And then he felt like God had spoke to him and said, no, you need to be baptized.

And then he said, okay, if you do need to be baptized and, you know, you guys know, if you study baptism, there's 100 ways to do it. Parham said, well, if we're going to baptize, we should baptize, according to the Bible. And of course, he just went to what the Apostle said and didn't.

He started baptizing, simply invoking the name Jesus Christ. He wrote extensively about it in his book. I think it was published in 1900 or 1901. People just kind of ignore that. Like, oh, yeah, he didn't really believe that. No, he did believe it. And he makes a very strong point. He says, neither Sarah nor I just because of his wife have ever been baptized using a triune formula.

So, he is absolute opponent of the idea of invoking the formula developed by the Roman church. And so he takes a very strong stand, but people trying to act like it wasn't there. It's there. It's in writing. It's historically preserved. It's what he believed.

And so, you know, when he talks, you can read it. It's not like you have to just like, oh, my God, what did he say? So, but the assemblies of God rejects it. Not so much because it was inscriptural. They reject it because it was connected to power.

Everything connected to power and they want to do the. opposite and so this is a really big deal and it's fine you know you have to realize when they simply got first organized it's a little bit it's a fellowship and we're all going to work together but they really were focused on making an examination and in 16 they make sure everybody knows you're going to do it our way or the highway and that's when it becomes a doctrinal division and it is on the opposite side of that and he's black and so there's some very strong things that

happen including in the 1915 assembly of God meeting they threatened to lynch Haywood. Oh wow and that was at the time if I remember right that was at the time the FF Bosworth William Brandham's mentor was in the assemblies he helped establish the assemblies. Yeah Bosworth is one of those guys and I mean he's a Dowie I would really describe you know Dowie tried to bridge the racial gap with the reality is Dowie was just there for the money he was a much better it being a shame than William Brandham I mean this guy got it done I mean he built it he built an

empire yeah Brandham was trying but but Dowie you know give the devil his due he was getting it done I am certain that we're going to get blasted through all kinds of comments on much of this discussion you know we've got some very hardcore trainitarians and you know people who baptized the trainitarian way who watch the show we've got some really hardcore oneness who say the trainitarians are going to hell because they baptized in the Trinity and you know I'm not a I'm not a minister I don't claim to be I don't even want I don't even want to be a minister but just taking a step

back from all of this if you just think about it if a person has the power to send somebody to heaven or hell who's actively seeking Christ who wants to be baptized because that's what the Bible says to do and the person who dunks them in the water can say a word that sends them to heaven or sends them to hell you basically have you've basically given an incantation to the minister who's baptizing them it becomes an incantation instead of you know displaying your faith to God right yeah so colds have these special words yeah here's the thing and anyone who denies this I can't help them

the scripture gives us very specific scripture on what to say baptism we lost immortality in the Garden of Eden a free plug for my book I talked about what we lost and what Christ came to do to get it back for us because we could get it back we lost something we could not get back that was our immortality so the Holy Spirit is that improve mature of the Holy God in our lives to help us get back to our immortality and we always trying to get people to understand the kingdom when the kingdom is in us. We're trying to

get people to gain something that it already hears here where the kingdom is in us and our job is to try to share that with other people they need the kingdom and we get bogged down in these theological debates that I don't really think bring a lot of value.

Yeah Charles add to our list of side episodes that we're going to have to do we're going to have to do a whole episode on baptism because like Bernie is saying here I cannot think of a single person who gets baptized the trinitarian way who says wow I've just been baptized into the Trinity they're all thinking no I'm a Christian I've just joined Christ I've joined the kingdom and same with the oneness you know William Brannum there's many many things that he indoctrinated us incorrectly but one of the biggest things that really hit us when we left and started visiting other churches he falsely taught everyone who's

in his sect to believe that all trinitarians believe that there are three gods plural. I have not yet met and I've been to several different churches after leaving the message call I've not yet met one single person who believes that there are three gods and I've not yet met a single person who is baptized in the trinitarian formula who says that I've been baptized into the Trinity no they've been baptized into Christ Jesus their savior that's who that's why they joined the church that's why they call themselves Christians otherwise you would call yourself I'm a trinitarian and you're a Christian it's totally different

there are some that actually do believe there's two thrones in a bird perch in heaven but they are rare yeah they're very rare you're right we've been it's indoctrination we've been indoctrinated to be divided from our brother fellow brother and our comrades and arms and it's the work of Satan to come in and so tears you know they said we so good field student Satan is field and it's got tears what happened in enemy has done this description says so that's what's happened we've been divided from people unnecessarily and the only one that benefits from that is Satan

yeah tell us where we can find your book my book is available everywhere Amazon just go to Amazon type in my name Ernie Wade it'll come up war on earth Barnes and Noble all the book stores they tell me it'll be on the shelves in Walmart in about 30 days awesome I think that'll be kind of fun to walk in a Walmart and see my book so excellent and I'm excited like I say for the parham book that one is specifically interesting to me but Well, we've we could talk forever. I think I'm going to wrap it up and

Yeah, we may have you back on again if you don't mind because this is Fascinating If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web You can find us at William-Branum.org and Christian gospel church.org For an overview of the historical research of William Branum and the healing revivals Read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branum And his message available on amazon kindle and audible Join us again next week. We've got a great episode coming

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