Homosexuality in the Message

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Charles Paisley, the founder of Christian Gospel Church.org. And together, we're examining the history and the intersections in history between William Brannum and other key figures that either influenced or were influenced by the post-World War II healing revivals.

Charles, we have a somewhat fun and somewhat unusual episode today. I'll be honest, this whole week I've been trying to mentally prepare with how do we even approach this subject? Because the subject matters, you know, it kind of fits within the rest of the history.

It's something that I think people need to know, and it's widely something that's been covered up by the cult of personality. It's something that, as you know, everyone in the inner circle knows these things that we're about to discuss. And yet, it's just not talked about, and that's the subject of homosexuality in the message. I will never forget when I first began my YouTube site years ago. I think it was like, I can't remember. I think it was 2012, whenever I first started publishing the YouTube videos and got myself going through the research and I was talking

through it. And there was a guy who, you know, people who remember my old YouTube site, the one that the cult took down a few years back. Everyone who was active on that site remembers this guy, because he was all over the comment feeds. Not only YouTube, but even I think on some of the other social media, but he swore up and down that William Brannum sexually assaulted his father.

And I actually took the time to contact the person privately offline and asked him, because I, at that point in time, I had heard these rumors, but I'll be honest, my mind had just kind of blocked those, you know, how in the cult, you mentally blocked so many things, even after escaping.

And again, I was, you know, newly out of this thing. I had mentally blocked it and I talked to the man. He was definitely sincere. There's obviously no way to prove. Did it happen? Did it not happen?

And at that time, everyone who's active on my channel begged me to talk about it. But the focus of my research was something that I could confirm through documentation or history, something that's historical and just his word is hearsay. It's not historical.

So I never really did, but people even still, I mean, even as of just a few weeks back, people have begged me to talk about this. And so, you know, we're going to talk about it. I had the opportunity also shortly after this. There was a ex-member who a lot of people know, you probably know this guy. I'm not going to give his name, but he was quite active in multiple churches and he took me out to lunch one day. I knew this guy, right? And I was thinking that he was going to talk to me about the failed visions, the, you know, the prophecies, the doctrines,

et cetera. And he sits down and we're at a restaurant in Clarksville, Indiana. He sat down with me and he said, John, I want to tell you something. I said, yeah, what's that? And he said, I'm gay.

And, you know, back then, we're in a cult of personality that pushes homophobia. Everybody's afraid of it. And I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I doing here? I'm sitting with this man who just told me he's gay. And I was uncomfortable. I really was because, you know, I at that time, I didn't want to be seen with a gay person. You know, I was a homophobia indoctrinated to be homophobic. I was very much that way. And I just, I didn't know what to do. But he sat down with me and he told me and I'll never forget the surprise, man. He told me names of names

of people who were in the different churches who were either a homosexual and privately opened to him or be linked that way. And everyone who was homosexual in the message could pick up on it. And when he started naming names, I'm like, oh my gosh, I never thought about that. And Charles, their name is everybody knows. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Now, again, that too is hearsay.

And it's not really so much on topic for what we're going to discuss today. But I wanted to set the background that this thing exists in the message. A lot of people are aware of it.

The people who are in William Brandham's inner circle are aware of it. The people who were assaulted are aware of it. Their families who their father was assaulted are aware of it. And it's sad. It really is because for me, I think I'm going to set the stage for this episode by saying this.

For me, the issue at hand, the one that we're about to discuss, isn't about whether homosexuality is right, whether it's wrong. You can go to your local pastor and you can have them explain to you what the Bible says about homosexuality.

That's for you, that's for your pastor, that's not for me to tell you. I am not a preacher, Charles. We need to discuss this from a historical standpoint, though. And we need to talk about the difference between what people are preaching and what's actually going on.

And just simply talk about the hypocrisy that's going on in the message. And Charles, I think I'll let you kind of explain that a little bit better than I do because you are a minister.

Let's set the stage where it doesn't matter if what your view is on homosexuality again. You take that up with your pastor. We want to discuss this from a historical view. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it, John. I think you've introduced the topic pretty well there.

And I think whatever viewpoint someone takes, I hope that what we talk about today can be appreciated from the aspect of the absolute hypocrisy of this situation in the message, because just like you described, John, in the message, yeah, you are afraid to even be seen with a homosexual person.

So that being the average person in the message is viewpoint. Take that in light of the things we're going to talk about today. Because in today's episode, yeah, we're definitely going to talk about something a subject that is incredibly taboo in the message.

And this might be the most controversial episode we record, John. I kind of have a feeling it will be. And as we go into this episode, I can appreciate that there's a lot of people out there who are probably going to think this is a subject we should not even talk about.

But I truly believe that the people have been affected by the message have a right to know about these things to hear the facts. Just make up their own mind on this based on, you know, the evidence is there.

But if you are still in the message, I want to highly encourage you not to listen to this episode. Go back to the start of the beginning of this podcast of the series. Work your way up to this. This is not the place for you to start listening.

If you're still in the message, you've not listened to... The episodes before this one, you are not going to be able to handle this episode. I could say that from personal experience, John. So that's a word of caution before we dive in.

And so I think, okay, everyone's been pre-warned. We've set the stage. So in today's episode, yeah, we are going to especially examine the homosexual rumors about William Branna. And these rumors are whispered by some of the old timers.

And while I was in senior leadership here in the Jeffersonville area, I heard these stories, John. And as we go through it, you'll see for me especially, it just leaves a person with a whole lot of disturbing questions, all of these rumors and the accompanying evidence.

Because these rumors, without evidence, they're just rumors, right? But the problem is there is some evidence that cooperates these rumors. And we do have undeniable evidence that William Branna was regularly staying the night and having sleepovers with known homosexuals.

That is something we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. And so in this episode, I want to share the rumors and also share the evidence. And then certainly the audience can decide whether or not the rumor should be dismissed and what they want to do with this topic.

Yeah, it's such a troubling thing. And I agree with Charles, if you're in the message, this is not the podcast for you. Go back and listen to the others first. But if you are out of the message or if you're a researcher interested in it, it honestly, it's a little bit fascinating because if you think back to the era of time and which all of this is going on, men who were homosexual had to stay undercover.

I mean, they in the South especially, they will string you up for this during this era. And you have William Brannum in this inner circle who, you know, regardless of whether we say William Brannum did it or not, this went on in his inner circle.

And we have multiple, multiple people saying this, so it's not just our words. So you've got William Brannum who's preaching against the sin of homosexuality. While at the same time, this is going on in his inner circle, while at the same time he has a homosexual campaign manager and his quote unquote tape boys.

They're openly homosexual. Everybody who knew them could see by the way they're affeminate actions, the way that they talked, the way that they held their hands, the way that they moved. These men were homosexual and somewhat openly depending on the crowd they were with.

So this went on. Obviously, I was not there, so I can't say that I saw this first hand. I have to rely on the witnesses and as the Bible says in the mouth of two or three witnesses, we have way more than three jarls.

Definitely way more than three. earlier pictures. Yeah, you know, as you mentioned the context of time, again, you remember this is all the 50s and the 60s. Homosexual acts were still a crime in the United States until the early 1990s. You could be arrested. This was illegal.

This was illegal activity in the United States too, back then. So it's not simply, you know, a lifestyle choice back then. It's also illegal criminal activity to engage in homosexual acts in these days and people could and were arrested for these things and put in jail back then for that. So it's an entirely different atmosphere. It's an entirely different environment than it is today on this thing back then. So you couldn't... It took something special to survive as an open homosexual in those days. You know what I mean? Because odds are you were going to be targeted and you would probably possibly end up in jail or

highly persecuted by society for doing those sorts of things in a very open public way. So it's... This whole thing is just a little bit odd. It is and, you know, it's difficult for me because I've never swung that way Charles. The mentality of a person who is having this in their mind and yet being in this Pentecostal holiness religion where it's harshly condemned, strongly condemned by the ministers. It does something to your psyche. And again, I sat down with this person and he's naming names and I'm just... After I picked my jaw up off of the

floor, I... My curiosity got the better of me Charles and I started asking him what... Okay, what's it like? You know, you're homosexual in the message and you're covering this up and what's it like? And how can I apply that to my research about William Brannum? And he kind of walked me through it in a way that I understand and I'm certain I won't be able to explain it as well as he did because he's experiencing this firsthand. But one of the problems that existed especially during William Brannum's era and it continues to exist for people in

the message who are struggling with homosexuality is that when it is suppressed and your psychological tug of war in your mind of whether you're going to just leave the message and be openly gay or stay in the message and cover it up, that tug of war in your mind wreaks havoc on your life, your personality, everything. You become very angry and bitter.

And he went further to tell me that there are men who have this, who are married to a female. And the problem is because they are homosexual, they don't have the solid connection with their wife that other people have.

So they don't treat their wives very well. And again, he started naming names and there are people, you know this as well as Michal's, there are well respected men in the message who physically abuse their wives.

It's a very sad thing. But when he started naming names, I'm like, wait a minute. And he started talking about the way that a person who's in this position will speak very derogatory about women who will, you know, suppress the women, oppress the women who will verbally abuse the women all the time.

And I'm sitting here at this point, I'm having a difficult time hearing everything he has to say because my mind is racing. I'm going through all these names that he's given me and I'm thinking through each one and how some of the things that they've said about women, even their wives, one of the names he mentioned, this person told many, many jokes about his wife and everybody kind of laughed because, you know, in the context of a group of men who are laughing, once a person starts laughing in the second person, laughter spreads, but when you take a step

back and think about what they're doing, they were making fun of their wives and they were in a way they, the joke was intended to belittle their wives and when you put that in the context of a person who's struggling with this in a closet fashion, it all began to kind of make sense.

And from there, again, we're not going to talk about whether William Brannum was or wasn't, we'll just talk about the people around him. But if you do take a step back and think about the very, very negative things that William Brannum said about women, it really makes your mind start to explore the reasons why he said those things.

Yeah, that is a very excellent point, John. Yeah, you know, and we know that there's a pattern, you know, behavior around William Brannum as well, just unusual stories. Going back to the early days of the healing campaigns, just a long pattern of unusual things across the history of his ministry, you know, back in episode 22, for example, I know we examined how according to his own statements, William Brannum talked about visiting the Pagal in France, right, which was at the time the most infamous red light district of homosexual prostitutes in the world, right?

So we have unusual things. that William Brownham mentioned through time that puts him in compromising situations, right? Like you said, John, there's these unusual behaviors in his ministry, especially around the stuff the way he talked about women.

And I have wondered that exact same thing, John, is did some of his very harsh treatment towards women come as a result of something like this? But in regards to the Pagal, for example, I mean, when you look at that situation, you're left wondering, why in the world would a Christian preacher want to go to the homosexual capital of the world in 1950?

Like there's such odd things that have went on through here, and you just, you observe a certain pattern of behavior. Yeah, exactly. And when I first began researching Place Pagal, I had no idea what this place was.

Your mind just kind of glazes over when you're programmed to listen to these recordings of William Brownham, over and over and over. And he says many things that would just shock you if you were to actually listen to what he's saying.

And he's telling his audience that they should take their daughters to see this place where there's open homosexuality and sexual acts on the street. He even mentions there are sexual acts on the street whenever he's in Europe.

So you know that this is not a place where any respectable Christian is going to be taking their daughter, and he's recommending that you do. Once I discovered what this place was, Charles, and at that point in time, I had already talked to this man who's telling me that all of these things and combined that with the stories that I've heard, you know, about the others in the inner circle, my mind is blown.

I'm, my jaw is on the floor and I'm picking it up, trying to research and I just cannot believe that even William Brownham openly talked about this. And when you think of closet homosexuality in the world, Charles, at that time during William Brownham's ministry, it looks as though there's a struggle to contain the secrets that everybody in the message is aware are going on in this thing.

So for me, when I learned what place Pagal was, that's whenever I began to just kind of open up to, okay, I knew this, but I suppressed it. I just kind of, they call it put it on the shelf.

I just put this on the shelf in my mind and I didn't really think through this like I should have. But once I did, it opened up all these areas of research that I may never publish, but are fascinating to me.

Yeah, you know in in the message. I mean where I come from I mean the word homosexual itself is almost taboo Yeah, I don't even even say the word right I Don't think you almost wouldn't even say the word gay. You wouldn't say the word Lesbian like you would not use this words. I still feel I still have a little Like these are words that do not come out of your mouth, right? Yeah to put it in context for people who were never in this thing Who were never in the researchers who were never in this Pentecostal thing my grandmother used to actually spell out the word

Diper if she was in in a public place and there's all these people around she would say I need to go buy and she'd whisper I need to go buy some D.I.P.E.R.S Yeah, and the normal people look at her like why'd you spell that out?

So homosexuality just the word man you don't say this word Yes, and when you look at William Brown's quotes for example about going to Pagal You'll notice he talks about the women and the things stripping Stripping on the streets right the things that were stripping that were women And thing that is you know again where I come from John which is old-timers from the a lot of we're descended from the old-timers that new William Brown Yeah, the thing was a phrase that would be used to refer to someone living a homosexual lifestyle rather than a he or she a thing right and so

When William Brown says thing in those quotes, I mean it is That is a word that would be used in that context for homosexual right so William Brown I mean from my perspective admits on tape to Witnessing homosexual strip on the streets of Pagal, okay So yeah, and you know another thing that we should probably talk to is just the surprising number of people Who were closely connected to William Brown that we do have positive confirmation were homosexuals and The number is really quite surprising when you step back and you count them and Some of the the obvious examples obviously are you Paul Schaeffer and Jim Jones, okay?

Paul Schaeffer and Jim Jones were both Active homosexuals and they're both carrying on some level of relationship with William Brownum, right? We've also mentioned Shreery von Blomberg who worked very closely with William Brownum over the years at different points especially his international activities and With all three of those men Jim Jones Very von Blomberg especially and we got solid evidence. They were staying together in the same hotels They were traveling together, which again in and of itself is not a smoking gun evidence of anything But it's just weird right preaching the religion that he preaches that William Brownum has so many of these type of figures in close proximity to it

It is very strange and Joneses for me Jones is the oddball in this because I've read through his sermons, and I don't see him strongly condemning women like William Brandham did. Jones was married, and he remained married, you know, for the rest of his life until the massacre.

He seemed to go either way very easily. Yeah, I would probably call him by more than I would homosexual based on that, but he did commit homosexual acts, and it was a part of, there's another thing I think the researchers who are aware of this will know, but I think the average person does not know this.

Homosexuality, even historically, was used as a way to cause submission. Even, you know, I've read some of the ancient authors, and they talked about how homosexuality of the ancient world, people would, you know, when they're traveling from town to town, you're in this either on horse, sometimes walking, sometimes by carriage or whatever, but these bandits would come, and they would attack your, you know, your caravan or however many people were with you, but they would not in a romantic way.

They would sodomize them in as a way to show submission and dominance, and it's, that's a very different thing. When you think about homosexuality today, you're thinking of men who are, you know, fighting the politics of the nation, trying to open up gay marriage, et cetera, and you're thinking about romance, you're thinking about love and two men loving each other, which I don't understand it, but that's for them, you know.

But in the ancient world, there's a way to show dominance, and everything that I've read about Jones was that he was using it as a form of bringing people into submission. And again, as I'm thinking through this with all of these things that I know they're going on in the background and the message, now my mind is like, it's turned into this complex puzzle, and how do you take all the pieces of this puzzle and make them fit?

Were these men showing dominance? Were they doing it as a way to make others submit, or was a romantic thing? I don't know, and because everybody's covered this up and suppressed it, we'll never have that answer, but there's so many pieces of the puzzle, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I could very well see being a mixture of those things, too, honestly. So these people will get even closer to William Brantum, you know, when you look at men like Gene Goat, or Leo Mercer, or even Paul Cain.

Paul Cain, we do plan to do a deeper dive into him before the series is over, but he is very important, actually, to the spreading of William Brantum's ideas and the latter reign ideas in general into the charismatic movement, but Paul Cain was an active homosexual.

Paul Cain first started working with William Brannum in 1951, and his William Brannum broke away from voicey healing at the end of 1954. Paul Cain stuck with William Brannum through that split, and he gradually served as a prominent figure who traveled with William Brannum, and served as a supporting evangelist in a lot of his revival meetings, and so Paul Cain and William Brannum worked very closely together for many years.

In the years after William Brannum died, Paul Cain was actually instrumental in starting the Kansas City Profits, from which he's descended the international house of prayer. There's lines from this all the way straight into Bethel, for example, the vineyard movement descended from that.

These are key inputs into the new apostolic reformation, but anyway, Paul Cain is one of those direct bridges between William Brannum and that group. A very large section of the charismatic movements descended directly from the Kansas City Profits, where Paul Cain was one of the original central figures there.

Anyway, so I think about it was 2005, Paul Cain was discovered to be visiting homosexual prostitutes, and he was confronted over it by Mike Bickel. And Paul Cain made a public confession that he had been a homosexual for decades.

And if you look through, this is just one of the articles there are, there's about a dozen articles altogether you could look through on this, but as you look at them all and put it together, his confessions actually indicated that he was living in this lifestyle actually all the way back to the days that he was touring and working closely with William Brannum.

And it was a really big deal when he made that confession at the time. The story was carried in charisma magazine, which was one of the main publications of the charismatic movement. So anyway, Paul Cain, I would say that after 1957, Paul Cain was probably the number one most frequent preaching companion evangelist who traveled with William Brannum.

So he stayed with William Brannum up until the very end, and he was still doing revivals with William Brannum up to 1965. So you would have William Brannum and Paul Cain traveling together taking turns preaching.

Jean and Leo were traveling right along with them, right? Sell them the convention memorabilia, Brannum memorabilia, Prairie von Blomberg, even financing and working on some of these exact same campaigns, John, right? Early in the mid-1950s, I know Prairie von Blomberg even sent Paul Cain over to Germany himself multiple times, you know, on kind of some solo tours, even.

And Jim Jones was along the further ride for some of those activities in those years in the mid-1950s. And so at the very least, we can know with certainty that there were times when there were no less than five of the key members on William Brannum's team were homosexuals during those years.

Yeah, you know, I had multiple opportunities to speak with Paul Cain before he died. And, you know, at that point in time, he called me several times, I called him, at that point in time, I did not know everything that I know now.

is that I did know, I really didn't have any context for them. So the questions that I asked whenever I was interviewing and, you know, just trying to collect information from, I didn't know what to ask and I didn't know how to ask it.

So some of it really did not fit. But what was interesting when I think back about it, Paul Cain was William Brannum's proxy into countries where William Brannum was not allowed to go into.

Now remember this fascinated me because, again, at that time I did not know the context of history of William Brannum. But one of the places that he specifically mentioned was he was a proxy to Germany.

There was a point in time, apparently, at which William Brannum was not allowed back into Germany or there was a period of time he was not allowed. I've not really understood the context of that.

Why was he not allowed? But according to Paul Cain's testimony to me, Paul Cain said that he was very active in the Brannum Tabernacle. He mentioned, I could do a whole episode on just the things he mentioned, Charles.

He talked about there being a female pastor at the Brannum Tabernacle, which now that I think back that was likely six sister Hicks, but it places Paul Cain in the very, very early stages of William Brannum's ministry.

At least early enough, yeah, regular, because this is not an open subject of conversation in the message. But William Brannum had a female who organized his sermon notes who I'm told by somebody who was very close to the situation.

Wish I could give his name, I can't, but the William Brannum sermon notes were written by a female and he preached entire sermons that I know these sermons and they were written by a female.

Well, William Brannum is condemning female ministers and it blows your mind. But Paul Cain mentioned that to me and he said that there was a point in time in which he was not allowed, when William Brannum was not allowed to go into Germany and Paul Cain is the one that was sent.

In the context of all of this, we see that Prairie von Blumberg is sending Paul Cain, so it all kind of makes sense. At that point in time, when I'm talking to him, I did know that Paul Cain had openly confessed, and I think you held it up to being homosexual.

I was troubled by this. I think this point in time was before I sat down with a guy in the restaurant talking about homosexuality and the message. So I asked Paul Cain about it because I'm just confused, how can you be a Christian in my mind?

That's how I was thinking. How can you be a Christian and be openly homosexual? Because again, I was programmed to be homophobic and here's another homosexuality. man contacting me. Well, he denied it strongly on the phone, not just once. Multiple conversations, Paul Cain denied it while he's telling me this while he's telling me, no, I've never been homosexual.

I literally had this article up by charisma and I'm looking at it and I'm looking at the quote from him. So here, now I've got this guy who's lying to me on the phone and I have to question everything the man says, Charles. I believe, I mean, we have a copy of his confession letter. Yeah.

So, you know, anyways, and there's lots of witnesses to him issuing all of that. So, strange stuff, you know, you mentioned there the woman who was writing his note, you know, a certain point we're going to examine where William Brown, I'm got some of his revelations, I'll look forward to chatting about that. I know the same woman you're talking about there, if we chat a little more about that. And Paul Cain, yeah, before this is over, we've definitely got to do an episode where we deep dive on him and his importance because I know a lot of our

listeners want to better be able to understand how to connect the dots from this movement to the broader charismatic movement and we will certainly be able to do that when we examine Paul Cain.

Well, at any rate, Paul Cain is another known homosexual working very closely with William Brandham in his inner circle. Okay. So, Ian, in our last two episodes, too, we examined Leo Mercer and Gene Goad and the things that were going on there at the park with William Brandham and his many followers there at the end of 1962. And when you examine all of the details around the park and what was going on there, John, which included widespread child molestation, rapes, tortures, there was also rampant widespread homosexual activity occurring at the park. And I think we can

safely say that certainly dozens of the adult men in the park, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, and I have a suspicion that a lot of it was involuntary, we're engaging in homosexual acts at the park.

And one thing that is fairly widespread about that, and I don't, I don't want to be too descriptive here, John, but I've heard this story from multiple people from the park. I know we've discussed it. You've heard the same thing and we've even heard it from people from the park directly, but Leo, he took the story where Abraham was sent out to Ellie Ezer to find a wife for Isaac. And Leo took that part of the story where Abraham made Ellie Ezer place his hands on his loins and take an oath. Okay. And Leo took that really intimate act and he used that as an opening to create a

practice where he required other men to similarly take oaths. And when that happened, when that happened, that verse to rationalize homosexual acts between the men in the park and so I heard that from multiple sources that many men in the park were engaged in that ritual and it's something that would happen whenever Leo puts someone on the spot it was the way they could swear they were telling the truth or to show their loyalty and from the different ones I heard that from I feel quite confident that there's there's truth to that story and I feel very safe

in saying there was widespread homosexual activity going on among the message believers who relocated to Arizona with Leo and William Branham and John what I was told was that Leo actually claimed to have got that practice from William Branham and whether Leo was lying and making that up which is entirely possible right or whether Leo was just pretending to have got that from William Branham that was how it was presented in the park was these practices were flowing from the authority of William Branham and so you have in the park 50 plus men who either voluntarily or

involuntarily are engaged in homosexual acts at the park and you have William Branham coming and spending time there with those people on a regular basis and William Branham was sleeping over with those guys and spending quite a bit of time on all male hunting trips with the same it's unbelievable and again for the context of history we weren't there we can't say that we saw this going on but in the religious in the biblical way the biblical mouth of two or three witnesses as you've said I've heard it from numerous people you've heard it from numerous people

and this is a thing that was apparently going on while William Branham was alive there are like the passage you mentioned from the Bible there are specific passages in the Bible that men who used homosexuality as a form of dominance they used that these passages to convince otherwise non-homosexual men to engage in these acts with them and that was one of them like you said Leo claimed he got this from William Branham and if you think of the context of this Charles this is a commune openly condone supported promoted and praised by William Branham by men who were going on these hunting

trips with William Branham and who William Branham travels from Indiana to to meet with these men to hunt in these locations and the average person isn't going to easily accept this if you were to come up to me and say hey John I want to make a promise to you can I touch your loin oh it runs screaming think about these men these I don't believe that majority of these men that we're talking about, we're homosexual, some were, and we have evident, actually we have court record that some were, but not every one of them was

homosexual, yet they participated in this, which tells me that being manipulated and coming into the mind control of the central figure of occult, you're going to do whatever the central figure says, because your manipulate, your mind is fully abused by this person.

So I have really, I have no reason to question whether William Brann, I'm taught this to Leo. I can't say with certainty that he did because it's not on recording, it's not on tape.

You're obviously not going to find a tape of William Brann saying, hey guys, let's go touch each other's groins, it's not going to be there. What we do have, the mouth of not just three, but multiple witnesses that this was a thing.

And for the context of history, we can use the mouth of two or three witnesses to say that this was definitely going on. What we can't say is make the leap, did William Brannum privately tell Leo, because what we don't have, the men who are participating, will not talk about it.

So we can't interview a man who was engaged in this act with Leo and possibly William Brannum. We can't interview them and get them to tell us, did William Brannum do this or did William Brannum teach Leo, because they will not answer.

Yeah, like you said, I also believe that a fair chunk of these people, it was definitely something involuntarily, something involuntary was happening there. Because I don't, a number of them that I have known, I did not see any of them as being homosexual characters, right?

Like I think that it was something definitely involuntary that was happening in a majority of the cases. So in our last couple episodes there where we talked about Jean and Leo and even here right now, I think we definitely drove home the point to convey what type of man that Jean and Leo were.

And they were right out front with William Brannum for the last 12 years of his ministry. For example, we got a picture of William Brannum and Leo Mercer with Robert's and his wife, right?

William Brannum, do you think that's weird, okay? So here's, or Robert's and his wife, and now here's Leo and William Brannum. It's weird. And so, but the point there is, William Brannum had these guys right out front with him.

You know, Leo and these guys were rubbing shoulders with all of the big figures that William Brannum worked with. Right? Right out there in the open. and William Brannum was keeping those guys by his side almost everywhere he went and there's some really unusual stuff that went on over the year concerning those men and one John and for me this is everything we've talked about right here what we're coming up to this is where the most evidence is this is where I am most disturbed on this topic and the really disturbing thing to me is these hunting trips the hunting trips so William Brannum loved going on these all male hunting

trips the hunting trips are part of his whole Elijah mythos Elijah was a wilderness loving man therefore William Brannum had to be a wilderness loving man and so that expressed with his love to go out and hunt and spend time all out in the wilderness with just his male hunting buddies right so that's that's the way and that's a very common belief in the message and so he many times a year would go out on these all male hunting trips out in the wilderness you know miles and miles and miles away from everybody else just just all him and the guys and William Brannum was pretty

selective about who got to go on those trips my grandfather's actually invited to go on just one of them I was considered a pretty special thing to get invited on those hunting trips right so it wasn't just anybody that got to go yeah and it's when you step back and you think of the context of a group of men many who we know were openly homosexual Gene and Leo like you mentioned all Roberts had to know that these two men are homosexual the way that they act the way that they talked the way that they moved there's no way that all Roberts was not aware and it just

it blows your mind when you think about it but the hunting trips especially Charles they it's hard to believe that this went on and the men many of which who were not homosexual saw this thing I mean think about if you were to go into this into a remote area of the world with a group of homosexual men they invited you to go would you even go I don't especially while being indoctrinated with homophobia you couldn't pay me to go to one of these hunting trips but here's this group of men with well known homosexual men saying hey let's go hunting and then I've got a page up on this

just because it's it's fascinating to me but the way that they interacted with each other Charles there is a page on my website called holding hands and I've got photographs that when I was in the message I've seen these same photographs and I'm like praise God that's God's prophet and now that I take a step back there's the way that he holds the hands of the men there's no Wait, Charles, if you were to come up and grab my hand like this, I would be like, get away from me, man.

I'm, do that with your wife, not me. But here's William Brannum doing this and the way that they interact, like there's a photograph of my grandfather and William Brannum is loving him in a way that Charles, if we were to have held our wives like this in public before we got married, we would have sermons preached at us.

They would, they would have ran us out of the church if we would have held our wives in the way that William Brannum is holding these men. And I, I've been wrestling with this, Charles, how do I say this in a safe way?

So I'm gonna try, I'm gonna do my best. I can't say everything. There is a person who has been working with me through this whole time. I'm sure, I'm sure that the cult elite have wondered where I got most of my information.

There's an old timer that everybody knows who has been giving me information here and there. And it's somebody that I've known my whole life. I fully respect what this person said. Everything that they said, because of what it is, I have to go verify pretty much everything that they said before I publish it, but I've not yet found anything that can be verified that this person has told me that's false, everything that they told me is true.

And one of the things this person told me that disturbed me heavily, especially during the time in which I was homophobic, was that the way that my grandfather interacted with William Brannum was in a very homosexual way.

And they showed me the picture. I mean, look at the picture of my grandfather. This is not a way in which you interact with a man. This is not the way that a straight man interacts with another straight man, this does not happen.

I don't care what you're, I don't care, you know, they tell you, the cult tells you these photographs that the men back then, they were all in one accord and they loved each other in a godly way.

Well, this is not a godly way to hold another man. Well, according to this person, and again,

I'm sworn to secrecy while this person is still alive. I can't talk much about, because there's some bigger things that quite honestly might put this person's life in danger. So I have to be very careful what I say.

But according to this person, my grandmother was aware of what was going on. And she was very, very distressed. Sturbed when my grandfather went on a hunting trip with William Brannum openly disturbed like it people were aware that my grandfather was upset that my grandmother was upset so if it's openly If people are openly aware to the point at which They're aware that the women of the men who are going in these hunting trips are disturbed about their husbands going For me, this is a problem. This is a huge problem Now I can't really say that this is historical record because it's not the mouth of two or three witnesses. This is just a person who has given me countless

Points of information that I can confirm are true You know, I go through all of all of the things that this person has told me and good Lord man The stuff that went on in the message. It's really unbelievable But they're telling me this and then they pointed me to a Audio recording in my grandfather, which I'll play here in a second, but my grandfather Talks about when William Brannum Asked him to go sleep in the hay with him in a barn. I kid you not when I heard this I'm like you got to be kidding me not grandpa and

The person said at the end of my grandfather's life, which I was aware of this But at the end of my grandfather's life he struggled with Dementia so badly that he he began Removing his filter he would talk about things Charles He talked about flying into into Guyana with William Brannum son and They're openly talking about yeah, that's where it happened right there and And when I saw this and I had just discovered the Jim Jones research I'm like good Lord man. How close were they to Jones down, right?

Well apparently my grandfather Became more open than he should have about these hunting trips and One of them actually got on recording and the recording used to be on YouTube. They've since pulled it down so I don't know why they pulled it down, but it's I Looked this morning. I could not find it on YouTube But my grandfather mentioned William Brannum asked him to go sleep in the hay and They were at his mother's house my grandfather's mother, which would be my great-grandmother And she said no you you can sleep in the bed and William and my grandfather said and

That was the first time I had the opportunity to sleep with William Brannum and And You know, I'll play the to I'll play the recording here in a second, but when I heard this I was just I Could not believe it. That's my grandfather who's now removed his filter To William Brannum and I know these things are going on in the hunting trips and here's a hunting trip where He said, he's bragging about being able to sleep with William Branum and it blew him on my, here's the recording.

One day, he said, let's go down to your dad's squad of them. I said, okay, well, we went down there. He said, we'll hunt tomorrow and then we'll stay all night until next day and I said, okay.

We got there and he said, now, I saw Paul Hay on the barn and said, you and me will just sleep out there. And my mother found that, she said, you're not sleeping in the barn here, you don't sleep in my bed.

Well, that was the first time that I had the opportunity of sleeping with him. Wow, John. I mean, that's incredible. I remember the first time you shared that with me, shocking, shocking, you know, by itself is it, is it enough?

But in the grand scheme of thing with all the other evidence. I mean, you just, this stuff just keeps piling up. Let me tell you actually how I first heard about this stuff, John.

So I actually got this from the old-time message preachers who were at the tabernacle back in those days. Those are the men who told this to me, okay. And back in the 1980s, there was a message preacher in this area.

I won't say his name, he's actually still living. But he's a well-known message preacher. William Brown even mentions his name on tape. Same thing that a lot of these people are living, and so some of them, these are our friends and family, John.

We love these people, right? Like, I know, I know a lot of them. I try not to destroy, you know, I don't want to send a mob of harassing people to this man's door.

So maybe when they're past, I'll be glad to divulge the names, you know, of some of this stuff. But yeah, he shared a rumor going back in the 1980s when he was still in the message.

And he told people back then that there was a, that while William Brown was still living, there were people spreading homosexual rumors about it, okay. So while William Brown was still living, people were spreading homosexual rumors about him, according to this whole time message preacher.

And so, you know, that's just a rumor, right? But through that story, I did confirm that the homosexual rumors existed while William Brown was alive, okay. So the fact that the rumor existed while he was alive, I think that's notable.

And so when I was investigating this stuff before I finally left the message, I actually

about this. At the same time I asked him a bunch of stuff about Jean and Leo. And my pastor is an old timer. He was at the tabernacle in those years with William Brannum. He preached at the tabernacle, why William Brannum was still living, okay? My pastor told me that he knew about the homosexual rumors himself, John. He told me he also saw some things that actually really disturbed him back in those years. And he told me it bothered him so much that he was actually thinking about leaving the message back in the 1960s. And he told

me that he prayed about it. And then he had a dream. And in the dream, William Brannum comes to him, all dressed in white and gives him a hug and says it's all a great big lie.

So he stayed in the message because of that dream. And he looked the other way and stayed in the message because of that dream. So my pastor told me that. Now, will they publicly deny all this? I mean, I'm sure they will, right? But I mean, I have ears. I took notes in all of this. I mean, these people are outright lying today, you know, about some of this stuff. But my pastor told me that. And so he told me that actually because he was telling more or less, this was a good enough explanation for him. So it should be a good

enough explanation for me to just dismiss the homosexual rumors and move along. But really, John, that did not do it for me. My pastor, what he actually did in that, he's, he confirmed to me. Again, the rumors were real. He confirmed to me. He personally saw something that disturbed him. And he confirmed to me. He was so convinced by what he saw. He was ready to leave the message over it. So that is what, that is what his eyes and ears saw in those days, right? But he, you know, did he have too many tacos before bed that night and just

have the stream? I have no idea. But I do know what his eyes and ears saw and heard, right? I don't know about the tacos that he might ate before he had dinner that night. So anyways, I just didn't do it for me, John. So at any rate, this, this just confirms to me that there is some level of substance to these rumors, right? I don't know how much, but there is some substance to these rumors. It also shows the deep level of control and manipulation by the laterane version of the message, because this was a movement, Charles, that they

put more emphasis on revelation, vision, prophecy, then they did on actual biblical facts. And in this case, even a step further on an actual event, this person put more emphasis on his dream, you know, thinking the dream was supernatural, then the actual thing that's going on that is telling him, man, run for your life. So, you know, it's, it's unbelievable.

But he's just one of many that knew something is wrong. He's one who talked about it, but a majority of people who are... in this thing who were involved with this thing that was going on with William Brannum won't talk about it. They'll go to their graves and never talk about it.

Yeah. So John, it's not just one or two old-time message preachers who confirmed these homosexual rumors were around why William Brannum was alive. On tape, William Brannum actually personally confirmed the existence of these rumors while he was alive. So you don't got to take our word for that. You know, William Brannum told his audiences that while he was on a trip to Canada that someone who was traveling in their entourage was arrested by the police in Canada for committing homosexual acts on the trip. And after that arrest, William Brannum was approached by the ministerial association connected to the revival and the ministerial

association had suspicions that William Brannum was involved in what happened. Okay. And so there's three spots on tape where William Brannum gives a little bit of details about this. It's not much but if you take the account, you piece it together. It seems like this happens somewhere around the year 1960. It seems to be someone traveling in William Brannum's entourage, participating in his meetings that got picked up by the police. And let me read you one of the spots where William Brannum briefly mentions this on tape. This is from 1961 Sherman. Revelation chapter five, number two, William Brannum says, the man was picked up right there by the the FBI from here,

sent up there and picked him up there. The royal mounted police. And the ministerial association come to me and a homosexual, they say, why brother Brannum's probably the same thing. Okay. So, so that is William Brannum on tape admitting that these homosexual accusations were going on while he was living. And that at least in that case, it was because someone around him was arrested for committing homosexual acts. This man was close enough to William Brannum that the ministerial association at the time thought William Brannum was connected. And I want to point out here again, you know, we're not saying that's definitely that William Brannum was a homosexual. But we are

saying that these rumors and these accusations were definitely being made while he was still living. Right. This is not something, John, that's brand new that you and I are just making up. These things go all the way back to all those years ago when he was still living. And I believe people deserve to know that and believe to be believed to know why those accusations were made back in those days.

Right. These accusations have been made since William Brannum was living. And according to the old time message preachers, these accusations stem from things that happened on these all male hunting trips. Right. This is what it all revolves around when I've talked, you know, the people I've talked to, it revolves around what happened on these hunting trips. That's the origin of the homosexual room accusations all the way back to when he was living and by William Brannum's own words someone in his entourage was picked up by the police for committing homosexual acts somewhere about the year 1960 and it was close enough

to William Brannum that the ministerial association he was working with thought he was connected yeah and the ministerial association would have not only been around these men who were with William Brannum who were openly displaying themselves in a homosexual way they were aware many of the men who worked with William Brannum were close enough to be aware of the unusual doctrines that went on one of the things that and I've heard this from in multiple places not just in Jean and Leo's commune but there were these doctrines that existed where people were forced to be abstinent during a period of time and

this is not just limited to the message sac that this is a very common thing among mind control destructive cults your body has needs it's it's not even you know it's not even just for procreation there there is a chemical that grows in your body as a male that you must release and not not to get too graphic but the men who are manipulating people are aware of this and they caused people within their sect to abstain from sex for a period of time until basically they're uncontrollable and that's the point in which the ones who

are manipulating the heaviest Jean Leo Mercher did this even a court I think that's on the court record if not I know that I've heard it from multiple testimonies that there would be these abstinence drives in the commune until the men were in this state where then they go out on the camping trip and that's what they're alleging is what's happening so this was not the white ribbon so if you had the white ribbon you had to be abstinent for 90 days you got the white ribbon from yeah yeah so this was going on now in the way in which this thing was

presented it wasn't presented in a hey let's let's see how long we can do this it was presented in a doctrinal way so here's the ministerial association I can't say with certainty that they witnessed this doctrine firsthand but this was widespread enough it was probably talked about so they may have heard rumors that this was going I don't know but the ministerial association knew that there were people in William Brannem's inner circle that were homosexual they may have also heard the rumors about this practice that's going on, which is, it's unbelievable when you take a step back and think about it.

But regardless, they associated this homosexuality directly to William Brannum to the extent that Brannum mentioned it on recording, which for me is, that is the smoking gun because you're not going to casually mention this.

You're not going to, you know, if you're trying to cover this up, which not only William Brannum, but everyone in his inner circle, we're doing. If you're trying to cover it up, you don't even mention it on recording, placing yourself into the position where you're denying it because once you do, now everybody's thinking about it.

So the fact that William Brannum mentions it on recording, for me, this is the smoking gun. So John is someone who spent his entire life in the message, you know, as someone who loved and respected William Brannum, you know, I feel so betrayed to discover what was going on around him.

It was certainly going on in the sleeping bag next to it if it wasn't going on in his own. It was certainly going in the next sleeping bag next to him, right? You know, in the message, I mean, a lot of people are not even allowed to watch I love Lucy because I love Lucy's too racy, like we can't watch I love Lucy, it's too racy, but William Brannum can't have sleepovers with homosexual child molesters.

I mean, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? You know, and it's not like William Brannum did not know his companions were homosexuals either, right? Because that's another thing, you know, was I went through this, well, William Brannum just didn't know, like he was fooled, right?

You know, so you got a, so there you've got to set aside while his discernment wasn't working with all of these people, obviously. And he just didn't know what they were, but John, again, I actually, that's another thing I went through.

I can, for everyone knew these guys were homosexual, William Brannum knew they were homosexual, we even got, you know, like leaveale on tape confirming that he knew that William Brannum knew they were homosexuals when he hired them to be his tape boys, right?

Like, leaveale pretty well says that on tape, William Brannum knew they were homosexuals before he brought them into his inner circle, even. I mean, what do you do with that? And we have pictures, John, we have pictures like this one.

There's lots of pictures of these hunting trips. Just go through. Here's a picture with William Brannum laying his head on the lap of Wallace McNally on one of these trips, right? And this trip, we've got other photos of the same trip.

Here's another photo with the same trip of the same trip, William Brannum, Wallace McNally and Leo Mercer, right, on the same trip. And there's other photos. There are multiple other homosexuals on this trip besides them.

And here you've got William Brannum laying his head on the lap of a man on one of these. trips. What do you do with that? Because we have these photos on these trips where it certainly appears that a majority of the people on these trips are homosexuals. And here we have William Brannum, certainly in what anyone else in the message would consider compromising photos.

And so it's just unbelievable. You know, when I first saw, I call it the Brokeback Mountain photo, Charles, when I first saw William Brannum laying like this with his head on another man's crotch. At that point, I had been awakened to understand that these things were going on. And when I saw that, I was just, you know, I was disgusted by the fact that we were so indoctrinated and manipulated to be homophobic. And this is a common subject when you're going to these churches. They're commonly railing the people who are homosexual. It really bothers me,

Charles. And here's why it bothers me. I am attracted to women. I have always been attracted to women. And it's a natural thing for me. If you were to in a service, tell me that I can't even think about being attracted to women. Before I met my wife, whenever, you know, there's all these women in the church who are sitting right in the pews around me. And you're going to tell me that I can't even think about the women. And so after church, I'm going out, I'm having to like, you know, I don't know. It's hard to even picture this because it's so unusual. But

for the people who are struggling with homosexuality on the inside, you've got the same ministers who are just ridiculing the homosexual nature. I don't understand it. I don't, you know, for me, I don't get it. But for them, this is a very real thing, Charles. For people who are struggling with homosexuality in a sermon by ministers who are ridiculing them, verbally abusing them, offending them, people who, you know, there's a lot of people, I know people who now who struggle with homosexuality who are Christian and they want not to have this, but they can't help it.

So for me, this is a real thing that they need to think through and they need to address. But in the message in this cult where you're being, you know, manipulated like this, when a person who's going through that finds out that everyone knew, including half the time, the minister who's doing this to them, the minister who's doing this to them was aware that William Brannum was engaged in these acts.

with all of these people who were openly homosexual. What does it do for them, Charles? What does it do to their mind when they're sitting there thinking about? I've struggled with this all my life, and here's this person who is hypocritically ridiculing me when he knows.

For me, that anger's me, Charles. This undermines the ability to actually reach people in those situations with the Bible, because now they've discovered not only when they were in a call. Our leader has been this terrible hypocrite.

You've talked about how the message creates atheism. The same with this sort of stuff, the message produces a hyperversion of bad things in some extents, or it ends up having the reverse effect. I'll say of what it intends for a lot of things with the way that it handles and does things.

Because of all of the hypocrisy that goes on. I hope that our listeners can at least appreciate this from the hypocrisy angle. For me, it's just a very simple question. A simple, simple question.

If you never spent your whole life in the message's question, it might not even ring true to you, but if you lived the life that I lived and grew up in this cult, John, this is a knockout question.

What would make a message believer go on an all-male hunting trip where he knew that the majority of the men on that trip was a homosexual? Who in the message would do that? Why in the world on a trip like that would you lay your head on the lap of another man?

Who and what in the world? If you're in the message, that question explodes your head. I want to hear an explanation to that question. I want to hear a message preacher, I want to hear a message leader, give me an explanation of why William Brannum was on a hunting trip with the majority of the people who were homosexuals, and we have pictures of him and intimate poses with those people.

I want an explanation of how William Brannum can get away with that, but nobody else in the message can. I want to hear the explanation on that, John, you and I in the message, we would be destroyed forever beyond repair if it was you or me in this situation, John.

You and I know it, right? If we were on an all-male hunting trip where the majority of the people were known homosexuals, and there was pictures of us laying on top of another man, we would be ruined forever in the message.

Apocrystic, right? But that is exactly what we have pictures of. That is exactly what we can prove happen. And if you are in the message... Did you hear your preacher telling you about all of these glorious hunting trips that they took with William Brannum and there's message preachers who do?

I hope you will bear in mind that there's something your preacher is leaving out of that story. And I think you should ask yourself the question, why has my preacher never told me that William Brannum most always took multiple homosexuals on the hunting trip with him, right?

John, for me when I was in the message, I looked for ways to make sense of this, but I could never find a way to make sense of this. And I think even in most of Christianity, if you discovered, you discovered your pastor was regularly staying the night with homosexuals.

I think in most of Christianity, you would expect to hear a reasonable explanation for that, right? And that's exactly what we have here. We have indisputable proof that William Brannum was regularly staying the night on sleepovers with homosexuals and we've seen the proof, we've seen his own words, we know homosexual acts were even being committed in those events through multiple witnesses, including William Brannum's own, that statement on tape we read from him where someone was arrested.

And so John, I do absolutely believe that we are owed an explanation for this. The message preachers can't just look the other way. They owe an explanation to us for this, a reasonable explanation, especially the ones who were on these hunting trips with William Brannum, they need to tell us what was happening.

Because William Brannum was on a regular night, I keep saying, spending the night with homosexuals and doing that for years. And quite a number of the people knew it back in those days and I am still open to hearing a reasonable explanation to all this, but I have not heard one yet.

For me Charles, it's this simple. The world we're living in today is much different from the world of the days gone by. So this scenario that I'm about to describe would not have existed back then, but it does apply.

In today's world, homosexuality is much more open, I won't say widespread because I think it was just as widespread, but it's more open today. People who have the same sex attraction now openly talk about it.

What's unusual for me as a parent, Charles, is the fact that now my children are interacting with people who don't keep it to themselves if they are homosexual. And for me being raised in a homophobic way as a parent, this is very difficult for me.

It really is because I am no longer homophobic. But then when you as a parent, there's this element of you that still kind of, you know, what do you do? Right? And we had this scenario where one of my children was asked to go on a sleepover.

And the purse, one of the people who is with him was homosexual and we set back and thought about this, this is something that this is would have never happened to us when we're in the cult, right?

And so my wife and I were discussing with, you know, logically thinking through this, the way that you have to think through it as a parent is very much the same way that these men who were and their wives who were going on these things with William Brannum would have had to have logically thought about it.

I'm certain that what went through the head of my wife and I as we're going through this talking about my son, I know that that conversation would have came up or at least been thought about by the men and women who were involved in this thing.

We have to fully pull ginger out of it when we're talking about my son going on a sleep over, we have to pull ginger out and we have to think, okay, my son is going on a sleep over with the person who may be sexually attracted to him.

Can we let him go? Absolutely not. There's no way that you're going to get me to allow my son to go sleep over with somebody who potentially wants to have sex with him. Absolutely not.

We said no. Yet here are these men and women, Charles, and this topic had to have come up for them. These are men who, they knew they had the same sex attraction. So, these men are going on these camping trips to sleep with people who may be sexually attracted to them.

For me this is a problem and like I said earlier, it angers me because these people know it. I'm no longer of the same mindset. Thank God I'm not because this homophobia is a problem.

Like you said, in our support groups, there are people who are homosexual and there are some who want to remain Christian and thankfully, they are with pastors who are helping them understand that their psychological makeup is different than somebody who's not and they're helping them understand the scriptures in the Bible and they're counseling them and that's the way it should be.

I'm not here to counsel. I'm not a preacher. Never wanted to be. It's between them and their pastor. But there are also a large number of people who were in this thing and they saw the hypocrisy.

They knew, like this man who sat down with me, he knew who was homosexual because he struggled with this, he saw all the signs, he knew who they were. Some of them are respected in this message, some of them.

Charles, I'm not going to say it, but this person knew who it was. That's all I'm going to say. They knew the people that were involved. There are a large number of them in our support groups who, if you are homosexual, there is a large chance that you're going to be atheist. Because of this false religion, this false indoctrination that makes homosexuality into this demon that if you've got this demon, you're going to hell and there's no chance for you. They don't openly say that, but that's what all of their conversations behind a pulpit imply.

So for me, this angers me that a minister would be this much of a hypocrite. And like you, I'm not even going to ask for an answer. There is no answer to why you would be this level of a hypocrite. But here's where it gets even more problematic. I've been holding back on this episode, Charles, because the men in question, they know what I know. They know my family. They know what I know. They know my position. They know what I know. And the first thing that's going to happen when this episode gets out into the public is they're going to attack me.

They're going to attack you. The moment in which I began to investigate some of the names that were given to me by this person, and they saw the research going up. The very first thing they did, Charles, is they attacked me and they called me a homosexual. And I've never, ever struggled with this. Never. Like a let projection, John. Well, what it does to what it does to a people who are indoctrinated to be homophobic is that it takes the things that you have to say that are true, and it makes them question the things that are true. I've even had people who have escaped.

I've actually had many who have escaped the message told me, you know, John, I would have listened to you before, but it was a real stumbling block that you were homosexual. That's like, man, what are you talking about? And then when I found out it was my own uncle who spread this, I was pretty angry because he knows that I'm not, you know, these people know I'm not.

So for me, I think I'll end it like this. We're going to be attacked. I'm warning you now, Charles, they're going to attack us. They do not want this information out to our listeners. Why are they attacking us? That's that's the question. You've seen the photos, you know, regardless of the testimony. You've got William Brandham's own word. It is the smoking gun. It is William Brandham admitting that this thing happened. So for me, I think I'll end it like that. Don't take our word for it. Don't even take, you know, We have the mouth of two or three witnesses on many of the things that we've just told you.

Ignore all of that. Look at the photos of William Brannum lovingly holding the hands of people who are going through this. Take gender out of it. Take those same photographs. These are people with same sex attraction. Put William Brannum's face right next to the face of a female and have his arm around her and interlock the fingers and hold the hands up close to his heart. What would you think if William Brannum is openly holding women like this, you who are indoctrinated in this message or were indoctrinated? What would you think about that? I'm no longer of that mindset.

Now Charles, it's kind of funny because I still get the same accusation. If they were to accuse me of being homosexual now, I would just simply respond, well, I'm a sinner. Cast the first stone. You who have without sin cast the first stone, right? It's just a sin. It's just, according to the Bible, it is one of the things listed as things that Christians need to help other Christians work through to be a Christian. It's the same as it's mentioned by Paul and the same breath as gluttony. How many overweight, heavy-set pastors have you heard of Charles who need to go on a

diet? Who have the sin of gluttony make the same accusations about people with, you know, same sex attraction? And what's interesting, the uncle, and I'm not going to disparage him. You know, this is between him and God, but those who know the uncle in question know that there is a problem with the sin of gluttony. I'll just put it like that and end it. But I'm angered that this exists, but Charles, it needs to get out, and I'm glad we did it. I'm glad that we talked through it, now it's off my chest. Everyone out there has been begging me since, what was it? 2013, 2014.

Now you have it. I've talked about it. I did hold back about probably 40, 50% of what I know, because for the sake of the people involved, Charles, it's not just for the protection of the people, we have people who, you know, people who've told me this, who struggle with it, and I don't want to further victimize the victims. Totally understandable. I mean, I'm the same way, John. You know, I do love, and I care for a lot of these people, including people who went through this very kind of situation we're talking about. And it's, I think it's most important. We've done a good job.

Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy of William Brannum and the hypocrisy of the message in general. As it relates to this topic. Yeah. Well Charles, I'm glad we did it. It was fun.

I, um, like I said, I sweated bullets leading up to this episode. So I, I don't know. I think it turned out well. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did enjoy our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Brannum.org and Christian-GospelChurch.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Brannum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Brannum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Join us again next week. We've got a great episode coming.