NAR - Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org. And with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of ChristianGospelChurch.org.

And together, we're examining the history and the intersections in history between William Branham and other key figures that either influenced or were influenced by the post-World War II healing revivals. Charles, this is again one of the most interesting series we've got into because the new apostolic reformation just blows your mind.

Last episode, I asked, what were they thinking? And I think today, I don't know if there's a way to accelerate that thought, but you take a step back and what were they thinking? We're getting into some history that I have semi, you know, inside knowledge on because I have spoken with this person that we're going to talk about today.

Multiple times. And it blew my mind just talking to him because in our sect of the message, we were so disconnected from it as though these figures were just casual names that that were only sent by God to point to us to point to the prophet as our deliverer or as our Moses that led God's people out into heaven.

So I'm excited to get into this, but the history here and the connections between William Branham and the guy we're about to mention is just unbelievable. Yeah, so in our last episode, we looked at especially Kenneth Hagen and Tommy Osborne and the word of faith movement, which is a critical link between, you know, the latter reign William Branham and the new apostolic reformation today.

And today, in this episode, we're going to talk about another link coming out of William Branham, the message, latter reign to new apostolic reformation. And this one is probably the key bridge to the largest factions actually coming out of latter reign.

And we're going to talk to be talking about a man named Paul Kane. And, you know, the word of faith movement is big, it's splashy. But in terms of just sheer numbers of people, the movements that Paul Cain influenced are much, much larger.

Paul Cain's another man who stayed also with William Brannum to the very end of his life, up through 1965. And as we've mentioned in previous episodes, Paul Cain was actually a closeted homosexual in most years.

After 1957, Paul Cain was probably the most frequent evangelist to still be touring and preaching alongside William Brannum. And he also served as William Brannum's proxy quite a lot, going to places on his behalf and speaking on his behalf.

And the two men were really very, very close. Paul Cain even built himself as another William Brannum, right? Like he literally, I'm another William Brannum, right? Like that's how he built himself in his advertisements.

So they were two peas in a pod. He was very, very much a man in the mold of William Brannum. He partnered himself with William Brannum and patterned himself, I should say, after William Brannum in almost every way.

And in later years, he did try to downplay his connections to William Brannum, but make no mistake. They were very, very close. Paul Cain even moved to Arizona when all the other message people started moving there in 1963.

The year that message people believe William Brannum became God incarnate. So he was very much a follower of William Brannum. Yeah. I've mentioned it a few times on the show and other interviews that I've had.

And I've spoken with Paul Cain multiple times. I can't say everything that he told me yet, but let's just say that they were some very interesting conversations, Charles. And what's really fascinating is the fact that it wasn't me contacting him.

In fact, I had really no idea who this guy even was until he reached out to me. He's the one who started this conversation, this series of conversations with me. And it wasn't until I began publishing William Brannum's deep connections to white supremacy.

That was the point in which he started reaching out and he was very insistent that he talked to me. And again, I can't say everything that he said, but what I can say is that he strongly affirmed what you just said.

He was William Brannum's proxy into places that William Brannum could not go into. He was whenever William Brannum was asked to come hold a big revival at some place. If William Brannum had a scheduling conflict or if he was not allowed into that country, it was Paul Cain that William Brannum sent.

Paul Cain was basically the one who spreading the message of William Brannum into these places. And after William Brannum died, this looked much differently. It was no longer the message of Brannum. It became the message of Cain.

There was a point in time, Charles, in which Paul Cain was the mouthpiece for William Branham. And I'm too old. I never knew that I was going to go to July to Europe. Well, that night, as soon as I was after midnight, the telephone rang, and by the William Branham, it was calling, and he was in Jeffersonville, Indiana, and so after a little small talk, he said, well, Paul, I'll get right to the reason I'm calling, he said, how would you like to go to Europe?

And I said, well, you know, I took me by surprise, and I said to Europe, did I hear you right? And he said, yes, how would you like to go to Europe? And here, you think you've arrived, you think you know everything by now.

And I didn't even know the Lord was setting me up. And so I said, well, I said, I think I'd like to go to Europe, so this is kind of unique. Yeah, you're exactly right, John.

He would, if William Branham got sick or something, and couldn't make a meeting, Paul Cain tended to be his fill in his substitute. And what you'd see a lot of times is William Branham would schedule week-long meetings, or even two week-long meetings.

And he would go do the first part, and then him and Paul Cain would overlap in the middle, and then Paul Cain would finish the revivals out. So he was, they were very active together for a lot of years.

They started doing that. I want to say, 1951 or 1952, at least, officially, and they did it very heavily after 1957. You know, they got more and more frequent through time, as William Branham lost other key team members with the split, with voicing healing.

So Paul Cain stayed with him through all of that. Paul Cain stayed with him through all the latter rain splits. He stayed with him through the voicing healing splits. He stayed with him through all the sanctions from the denominations, you know.

So he was a very loyal to William Branham. Manifested here, there, everywhere, all over the world. That's the reason the stadiums are going to be filled. That's the reason all the sports arenas and all of the meeting places are going to be filled.

The overfields in Africa and everywhere else are going to be filled with hundreds of thousands and hundreds and hundreds of thousands is because the glory of the Lord has come back to the earth to show forth the power and the glory of all body God in a wonderful outpouring call to the true one earth rain.

What Paul Cain was very famous for, as a minister, was his gift of discernment or his word of knowledge, people call it different things. And for him, his gift of discernment tended to be about the sins that people were committed.

And if you take time. to honestly look at what he was doing. Paul Kane was actually a really very abusive person with his revivalist style practices. In his services, he would confront people in front of the whole church.

He would accuse people of being adulterers and terrible things right there to their face on stage out of the blue, right? In front of the whole congregation. And he would get up in people's faces, even unsuspecting people who were just bystanders and he'd call them names.

He'd say all kinds of things about them. Very, very aggressive style of the gifted discernment. And you can find Paul Kane doing some of that stuff even on tape. And he would even do that just to random people, John, just sitting by and watching.

And so he was really big on using his gifted discernment in play of fear tactics and intimidation. Which again, I think he learned some of that from William Brannum. Definitely, I've been to churches of in the message cult from coast to coast.

And it's a very common thing. They, you know, the message capitalizes on fear. With the fear of the mind, you create an invisible barrier between you and the outside world. And that's how they hold you captive through fear.

Well, the other element of fear is the fear that, you know, fear of going to hell, but the fear of being persecuted. And they will attack you. If they learn that there's anything that doesn't agree with the theology, you know, of, for instance, if a girl is going into school and she doesn't want to look like the Pentecostal holiness style and she dresses like other kids and goes to school, they will rail you in public.

It's not just that they will take you in private and say, look, you're sending and you need to change your dress code and become more like Christ. They will actually just nail you to the cross right there in front of the people so that you're fully embarrassed, you're fully shamed.

And it's one step away from the Salem witch trials, Charles. But this was a thing that was happening in the message of William Brannum. Paul Cain is, he learned it from experience. He's in these meetings where they're doing this thing to the people and it becomes a big part of his ministry.

I remember growing up in the message, John, and I had a fear of the preachers growing up. Were you afraid of preachers growing up? I was scared to death of the preachers growing up.

And I can remember thinking, if I get too close to the preacher, God's gonna tell them all the bad things I ever did. Like the time I pulled my sister's hair or something, you know, the preacher's gonna know I pulled my sister's hair.

And then the fear is the preacher's gonna tell the whole church and shame and embarrass you in front of everybody. I remember living in mortal fear of that as a child because that really is what we were trained to think the gift of discernment was, right?

It was a gift for the... preacher to know the bad things that people were doing. So then they could expose you to the whole church, right? And I hate to say it, but that was very common in the message churches I come from and in the Lateran in general, I believe. And the preacher would do that. He would just tell the whole church in shame and embarrassed people. Something else. And the leaders love shaming and embarrassing people publicly. And more often than not, that's the way their gift of discernment and their word of knowledge tended to be used. Yeah. I lived on the other side of this because we

were we were the cult royalty. My grandfather was the head of the Brannum Tabernacle. And so whenever whenever the pastors get it, my grandfather is getting up to speak. And he's telling these stories that all shock and all the people, well, I live the other side of it. I saw what was actually happening in these stories. And there were times whenever I'd be in other ministers churches and they would get up and they would, you know, use whatever spiritual claim that they had that they had this inside knowledge of people. Well, no, man, I was there. I know how they

knew these things. And so I didn't have the same level of fear. What's funny is this was recently, I want to say this was like maybe end of last year. Some people had escaped finally the mind control of the cult. And they came to me and they said they lived in fear of these men. It was it was as though they could peer into your very soul, just like William Brannum. And they had all this inside knowledge. And this person said, I was going through some really, really difficult times.

And, you know, admittedly, this person went, you know, was not living the message by message standards. It was a sin by normal Christianity. It was not a sin. But they were struggling with it.

And they were pleading for help. And, you know, during the social media craze, they're talking about the struggles that they had openly on social media seeking for help, seeking for comfort from other quote unquote Christians from the cult. Not long after it was posted on social media, the pastor goes, I have seen from God and you have done x, y and z. Well, this person's like, no, man, you didn't see from God. You read my Facebook post. I know, John, after I became a preacher, I discovered the same thing. And I was, I have to say, I was shocked when I discovered this.

But they're, they would get up, you know, and they would pretend that it's just a miraculous coincidence that they are happened to preach about the sin that you commit it. You know, like, they would pretend like it's just, you know, a word of knowledge or gift or something like that, total coincidence. But I was in the back room when the tattletail came and told, right? Like, and I would hear all of these things. And, and then I watch them get on the platform and pretend like it's some divine thing from God. And I'm at a certain point you start to

It's like, oh my goodness, this is all it is and it's always this way. And it's probably always been that way, right? Like there isn't, it isn't legit, it isn't legit. It's, it's tattletails coming to tell on people and then they pretend it's a word of knowledge or something or it's inspired to go.

And even worse, half the time, it wasn't even true. It's just somebody hated somebody and wanted to throw them under the bus. I saw people destroyed. I mean, I saw people's lives literally destroyed with this kind of stuff.

I mean, just someone would come in and, and make up a story and then the preacher can use that in a power play, right? And because public shaming and humiliation is one of the tools that these people use to control people through fear and then also make themselves look big, right?

Like there's something special and some people, yeah, some people pretend like, you know, there's nothing wrong, even with the preacher who acts that way. But the truth is, I mean, it's just wicked, ungodly behavior.

You know, it's not an edifying use of a gift of, of discernment or a word of knowledge, right? Even if you had a legitimate gift, that's not the biblical way to use that gift, right?

It's just, it's evil, right? And it's not even the biblical pattern for church discipline, right? To just randomly expose people and accuse people in front of the entire church. And a lot of times when it's not even true.

So it's, it's, you heard the stuff even in the, in the Debra Tibido interview, right? How Leo did it, right? That, that is case and point into how this stuff, they just make this stuff up.

And everybody believes they have this gift. So everyone believes what they say, they don't even matter if it's a lie. Everyone's going to believe what they say, right? And you're just a liar for not admitting to it.

So it's, it's really abusive. Yeah. It's, it's awful. I mean, if you just look at the Bible, this is not the way Jesus did it, man. This is not the thing that entices a sinner to be, you know, to put away this sin.

This is not how it works. These men have truly learned the power of words. And they've learned how to abuse that power. I'm a firm believer of the power of words. And Charles, I've, I've thought long and hard.

And there are only two words that describe what these men are doing when they do this. And I can't say it on here, but it starts with a B and an S. I know, right?

Like you look at the woman at the well, Jesus was in private with her when he told her that stuff. I mean, like it's not, yeah, it just don't work that way. But William Brannum would pretend like, oh, let's do this publicly.

Let me tell all your sins to the whole world publicly, right? Like that's not, it's not okay. And William Brannum and the Laterane Movement, they introduced these really wicked and abusive practices and they totally abandoned the biblical models of church, governance, church discipline, and they started abusing these gifts of the spirit.

I believe there's legitimate uses for these things in the church. But what they do with it is, is nothing but abuse of these gifts, right? And Paul Cain built his entire ministry on that sort of thing.

Very sad. very sad. Yeah. And it created a movement. I mean, again, when Paul Cain contacted me, I had no idea who this man was. And I had no idea the significance in American pseudo-Christianity, right? This man built this ministry on top of this thing. And it created a movement. And that movement heavily influenced the pseudo-Christian world. So for some reason, and I don't know why, I would love to know why. And if anybody out there knows why, please tell us why. But Paul Cain totally disappeared when William Brandham died. It's like he dropped off the face of the earth when

William Brandham died. The only thing I know for sure is that he was living in Phoenix, Arizona for some of that time. And which, again, I find it really weird that he moved Arizona at the same time all the other deity people moved Arizona, right? The same time Jean and Leo moved Arizona.

Paul Cain moved to Arizona, right? The same time all the stuff was going on at the park, Paul Cain had moved to Arizona. So it's just, it's unusual. And to me, it's suspicious. Because Paul Cain definitely believed William Brandham was a manifested son of God, just like Tommy Osborne did. You can even find Paul Cain pretty well saying that directly on tape that he believed that William Brandham was a manifested son of God. And Paul Cain eventually came to believe that he was himself a manifested son of God. And he would do things where he would

kind of pretend to be embarrassed. I'm embarrassed to be a manifested son of God. I don't really want to talk about it. And he was afraid. He'd act like he was afraid to operate at his full potential as a manifested son of God because he couldn't handle it. That was a fairly common thing that was going on with him when he would talk about that. But he's pretty direct in his testimonies about it.

He brought some of the most destructive latering teachings into his ministry, John. Yeah. You know, I've thought too long and hard about the Arizona connection. Why did he move? Why are all of these men moving to Tucson, Phoenix, you know, in Arizona? It wasn't until I tried to dig into the government records of a quote unquote nonprofit business. And trying to, you know, trying to dig up record in Indiana, I can find everything about these guys. You go to Arizona, and it's a little bit different the way the laws are written. It's, you know, it's like a little

came in islands at people want to put their money there because it's almost untouchable. You can't really see what's going on in these places. No comment. So here's something rather interesting too, John.

Here's something interesting. Uh, uh, uh, too is about this. So that's some interesting stuff. John. Yeah, I have some thoughts around that as well, but I'll keep them in my head.

So here's something pretty interesting. You know when Charismatic Christianity, a lot of them still believe in a watered-down version of Malachi 4, 5, and 6. They do. Yeah. Yeah. And which originated in British atrialism? A lot of Charismatic's believe that the spirit of Elijah will come upon the corporate church in the last days. You've kind of contrast that with the message because we believe it came on one person, William Brown, right?

And so that Charismatic version of Malachi 4, 5, and 6, that's something I have hunted high and low, John, to try and figure out exactly where that came from. Because the original Malachi 4, 5, and 6 comes out of British atrialism, then through later reign it evolved into what we had in the message. And to the best of my knowledge, John, Paul Cain is the man who transitioned that Elijah prophecy from a single Elijah to the whole corporate church. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so that idea that there's going to be a whole generation of Elijah's, I believe Paul Cain is very

likely the man who originated that teaching. And he did that in the years after William Brown have died while he was one of the Kansas City prophets. I've not been able to find another person preaching that before him. And so that really leads me to a belief that it's quite likely he is the one who originated that teaching, which came directly out of the message, which again we know we can trace all the way came back out of British atrialism. So I find that incredibly interesting. And Mike Bickle in the other Kansas City prophets really popularized that idea coming into the 1990s,

which again, I believe originated with Paul Cain who adapted it out of the theology of the message. Yeah, it's just really unbelievable because William Brandham died. And all of these guys were promoting like Paul Cain, who is William Brandham's proxy. He's William Brandham's mouthpiece for the message, the quote unquote message, which was the laterane message. Well, after he died, most of the things that William Brandham said died with him, most of the prophecies that really required him to be alive died with him. And so all of these men try to take what was there and they transitioned it into this new thing. And it becomes a new prophecy. It doesn't even

resemble the old one. But again, what were they thinking? These people who knew this, these people who had heard these prophecies, they said, Oh, yeah, it's okay. We'll change it to this new thing and we'll go with you. One more little interesting tidbit about Paul Cain.

Most of his really famous miracles from the healing revival days occurred at the Calvary Temple in the last Angeles, which was Leroy Cop's church. And I find that really interesting because we know that's the same place that some of William Brown's most famous miracles happened, like the Congressman Upshall Healing, right?

Which we know was a hoax. And we have pretty decent evidence that, I mean, I think that Leroy Cop was involved in perpetrating, you know, going along and perpetrating some of these hoaxes. And we have pretty solid evidence that Roy Davis was connected to that church as well, you know.

So there's possible Roy Davis connections here with Paul Cain's stuff going on there at that church. And so Leroy Cop, the pastor of that church, he was also vice chairman of the four square denomination and evangelists.

And very interestingly, he was mentally unstable, right? He was hospitalized. He was in a sanatorium multiple times. And he was the man who served as the cooperating witness on the majority of Paul Cain's miracles that were published in Voice of Healing.

So I find that pretty suspicious, if you think so. Yeah, that's crazy. And I'll never forget the first time that I saw he had escaped from a sanatorium. These are men who, when William Brown was struggling the most, the cops, you take what's it called the 20th century profit video.

This is what picked William Brown and back up off the ground. And these men are collaborating together to help, help keep this thing from dying because it is a money train. And Paul Cain, again, when William Brown have died, he had to keep this money train going.

And Leroy Cop, who's involved with this thing, Paul Cop, the straight out of the angelist temple. This is the church that had Wesley Swift and had Gerald Winrodd. I mean, these very horrific things were a backbone to their ministry.

I'm not saying that they continued them by no means from what we can tell, but these guys were trained under this teaching very, very wrong, very strongly opposed to Christianity, what they were brought up with.

Well, these are the same guys who are taking William Brannum and lifting him up. And now after Brannum dies, these guys do the same thing with Paul Cain. So I mentioned that Calvary Temple in Los Angeles because I am pretty sure that's where Paul Cain met Chuck Smith and started working with him.

And so Chuck Smith was Paul Cain's campaign manager and was alongside Paul Cain through a lot of the healing revival years and later rain years. And after 1965, when Paul Cain disappeared for that period of time, Chuck Smith took over a relatively small church called Calvary Chapel.

And I've tried to put the pieces together. I'm not sure about this. It could be... that that Calvary Chapel was a continuation of Leroy Cop's Church. I've not been able to quite perfectly figure that out, so I'm not sure. I would like to find more pieces, but I believe it is likely that Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel was a continuation of Leroy Cop's Calvary Temple. And Calvary Chapel grew into a really massive charismatic denomination under Chuck Smith's leadership. And one interesting thing about Calvary Chapel, too, when the Shepparding Movement imploded and broke up. Shepparding Movement, that's the cult that Derek

Prance and earned Baxter and Don Basham and those guys created. When it broke up after all the abuses that happened in the Shepparding Movement, there was a lot of the Shepparding Church, Shepparding Movement churches exited and merged into Calvary Chapel. So Calvary Chapel is descended from two of the main branches of the latter reign in that way. And Calvary Chapel is a huge, huge group that was influenced quite a bit by Paul Cain via Chuck Smith. And let me just say here, not every group we're talking about in this podcast is a bad group. And I really don't have any

bad thing to say about Calvary Chapel. I just want to put that out there today. Chuck Smith predicted the end of the world and the week of Daniel would start, I think, in 1981. And of course, that didn't happen. And after that didn't happen, it seems like Calvary Chapel started to reform itself in a lot of ways, honestly. And when they took in the refugees from the Shepparding Movement, I think that brought them maybe some awareness of the dangers of the latter reign movement. And as far as I know, Calvary Chapel today has rejected a lot of the most

dangerous cultic elements of the latter reign and have largely reformed. So just in case, you know, Mike Winger or somebody like that ever listened to this, I want to be clear I'm not throwing a Calvary Chapel under the bus, but this is where Calvary Chapel come from. This is the reality of the history of their movement where they can't come from. Calvary Chapel is a cousin to the message. Yeah. You know, it's it's really sad because there were a lot of people involved with all of this stuff that really had good intentions, but they were manipulated to

believe very bad things, very wrong things. So you can't say everybody, even the ministers who were bringing some of these very heretical doctrines, you can't say that their heart was impure. They they really tried to do what was right, but you've got this group of men that were just seated with very, very bad people who unfortunately were listened to because the latter reign had no checks and balances. So like you, I don't, you know, I don't have anything negative to say, but this this whole thing was part of a much broader movement. So Calvary Chapel is one of the largest

charismatic organizations today. I believe they have at least 1500 churches, maybe more than that. So That's one group. So eventually by the late 1970s, Paul Kane reemerged from wherever he was and whatever he was doing. And he got involved with Mike Bickle in Kansas City.

I think it's Kansas City, Missouri. It could be Kansas City, Kansas. I think it's Kansas City, Missouri. I guess I should have looked that up. I'll just say Kansas City, how about that? They're both one of the same. Yeah, there are different sides of the border, right? I mean, they're right there. So anyways, there are Kansas City. And they start a group that becomes known as the Kansas City Prophets. And it's hard to overstate how influential the Kansas City Prophets were among the charismatic movement. The Kansas City Prophets are generally credited with starting the third wave with Pentecostalism, right? So if you know the first wave of Azusa Street,

the second wave kicked off by William Brannum, the healing revival, the third wave was kicked off by the Kansas City Prophets. And Paul Kane was the most senior figure among those men. He was kind of like the old, experienced old hand for the younger prophets to learn from, right? He was kind of a godfather in some way figure to the whole thing. And the other prophets were deeply influenced by Paul Kane. You're laughing because of the Arizona stuff, right?

No, I'm actually laughing because Pentecostalism had this weird thing. I recently came from a church that was given me how this history worked. But the Pentecostal movement, you had the Azusa Street revival, which if you go back and look at it, you had like, you had spiritualists and you had occultists who were in this thing. It was such a weird conglomeration of people. But once that ended and it started spreading throughout the United States, anybody who was there at the Azusa Street revival, they were seen as the godfathers, right? And whatever they said, it didn't matter what they

said, they would take it as doctrine and it would enter into the Pentecostal faith. It doesn't even matter if this person is a Christian or not, as long as they're there and pretended to be Christian.

Well, then William Brannum dies, William Brannum who created the second wave. Well, Paul Kane is the godfather who was there. He was William Brannum's mouthpiece and he starts the third wave of Pentecostalism. Well, he gets this, he gets this superiority among all of the others because he's the mouthpiece to Brannum and think of his rank among the entire group of men in the, in the healing revival. I can guarantee you every one of those other men were like, wait a minute, Paul Kane. Who is he? Why is he this new leader? Well, Paul Kane's the guy that rose up and he rose

up because of his connection to William Brannum. Paul Kane is to the Kansas City prophets. What FF Bosworth was to the healing revival. Right. He's the old hand from the old days transmitting the stuff, so he's the bridge, he's the conduit, right, that pulls the ideas into the next generation of the movement.

And so, many of those other prophets were deeply influenced by Paul Cain, and a lot of what Mike Bickle and Bill Hammond and the other men implemented was, in large part, guided and influenced by Paul Cain.

And whether they fully understood it or not, I don't know. It's possible they didn't know, but Paul Cain was teaching them things he had picked up from William Brannum in the Laterane movement, absolutely.

And you know, when I listened to Paul Cain's recordings in the 1980s and 1990s when all that stuff was in full swing, Paul Cain was teaching them pure Laterane, manifested sons of God ideas, five-fold ministry ideas, positive confession ideas, right?

He's teaching them all the core distinctives of the Laterane. And then as the Kansas City prophets dispersed, and their influence went far and wide with them, they just spread these Laterane ideas everywhere. They just went far and wide.

And a lot of people in these movements, I think, might just be totally unaware of the history of their beliefs. I mean, I think that's probably the truth. But ideologically, these guys are all cousins to the message. In a lot of ways, they're the message minus William Brannum. And their teachings and practices are very similar to the larger message sex, right?

I mean, if we just didn't talk about William Brannum, I'm sure we'd all get along just fine, right? We would generally be compatible in almost every other way. Yeah. You know, it's kind of funny when you step back from it because William Brannum was so purely evil that even while all these men are together, they're trying to distance themselves from him, but they can't because he's the guy that everybody's come into see. He's the entertainment, right?

And they're wanting to get away from this guy because they realize he's not, he doesn't even know the Bible and he's preaching, which is really odd when you think about it. And they try to separate themselves, but they can't. And so after he dies, they all try to disconnect as though that that never happened. Don't look behind the curtain at the guy that created our movements. That never happened. Let's just erase it.

So one of the figures from the Kansas City prophets was a man named John Wimber and he was a key figure in the vineyard movement. And the vineyard movement is where the Toronto blessing happened. So, you know, if you know, probably our most of our listeners have heard about that.

And the vineyard movement, I think they might be the largest group of charismatic churches in the world today. I could be mistaken, but they're right there with the largest group, I would say. They've got thousands of churches globally and they're even larger than the message.

And there are in some ways a branch out of Calvary Chapel in some ways. you could kind of classify the Vineyard Movement as Calvary Chapel with a dash of Kansas City prophets added in, right? They're more ecstatic in their worship. There's more emphasis on those gifts of the spirit. And the stuff I would say that Calvary Chapel reformed out, Vineyard Movement has that in spades. I'll put it that way. And so another group besides them that came out of the Kansas City prophets was called the International House of Prayer. And that was started by Mike Bickel. And I think it's fair to say Mike Bickel was the leader of the Kansas

City prophets. He's actually the one who discovered that Paul Cain was visiting homosexual prostitutes.

And you got the International House of Pancakes and the International House of Fruitcakes. The IHOP actually sued them. International House of Pancakes actually sued them over. Yeah, so funny stuff. But the International House of Prayer is very influential today. There's still very influential today. And then the last group coming out of this I want to mention, there's more than we're talking about. But the last group is the Christian International Apostolic Network. And that was started by Bill Hammond, who was another one of the Kansas City prophets. And that movement has built a global network of apostles and prophets who are

probably the most intense group. I'll use the word intense to come out of the Kansas City prophets.

They embrace variations of the manifested sons of God ideas, fifled ministry ideas, word of faith ideas, positive confession ideas. Most of the core of the things that we believed in the message exist in all their groups in a slightly evolved form. And Paul Cain was the bridge for transmitting those ideas to those men.

Yeah, I mean, you look back at how these groups came together and came to be. And you can find traces of William Brannum's quote unquote message through all of them. And when you look, when you take that timeline forward, it's really hard to believe that it still exists in how widespread it is. Because elements of the very wrong things that William Brannum introduced into Christianity have just kind of, it's like this big pain of glass that just shattered and splintered and went into infected the rest of the church. And not everybody is aware where this history came from. And so you'll find very, very good Christian groups that actually spread

the gospel that have reformed and they've they've become somewhat stable, but they have the roots in this. And so unfortunately, you may sit through sermon and you may hear very, very good gospel preaching with just this little seed of something that came from the latarane revivals.

You know, I really wonder when Mike Bickle discovered that Paul Cain was visiting the homosexual prostitutes. Did it ever run through their mind that maybe that guy had been tricking them all along and they shouldn't, they should probably go back and cut out all the stuff that he taught them, you know? Do you think that ever ran through their mind? I don't think it did. They basically threw Paul Cain to the curb and then kept, kept all the stuff that he taught them in practice. I guess they were too far along at that point. I don't know. It's it's something else. There's this pattern that

emerges that we've discussed it on the show before. There is a point of time in which everybody knows the thing that they later denounce or deny. They all know it, but it isn't until the public opinion is swayed against whoever is involved that they step out and say, yeah, we knew this was wrong and we separated from it.

And then they separate. You've got William Brannum who's touring, who's campaign manager is homosexual, openly homosexual. The guy, you know, we've talked about furry Ron Blumberg. You've got Jean and Leo who were following William Brannum around everywhere, homosexual. You've got all these homosexuals in this movement. They all knew it. And here's Paul Cain who's homosexual sleeping with homosexual prostitutes who is William Brannum's mouthpiece. These men had to have known it, but I think it wasn't until until the public opinion swayed against Paul Cain that they stood up and said, yes, this is wrong. We must stand against it firmly. But I think they all knew and you know, you take a

step back and you just look at the whole thing as show business. They're okay with it as long as people are paying the money and people are coming to see them. But the moment in which everybody says, oh my gosh, Paul Cain is homosexual and we as Christians can't have this, that's the point when they separate. So then you have to ask the question, well, are they truly Christian? Do they truly believe what they're saying? Or did they just separate because now the people have found out about this thing? Yeah, you know, I can totally see Paul Cain

tricking them. I mean, I can totally see him, you know, putting the sheep skin on and tricking them, you know, when they didn't fully realize where the stuff was coming from necessarily that they taught him, you know, and so I can see that being true. But at a certain point, they all became aware of who and what Paul Cain was. And, you know, I suspect they did what a number of people do and say, well, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. And so they threw out Paul Cain and then they kept all of the ideology rather than

stop to think that maybe this is a clue that something's wrong with some of this ideology, right? And so they rejected just the figure. and maybe trimmed around the edges a little bit, but they kept the core of what Paul came top them.

And they're carrying it on today. And so it's dangerous. I'm scared for those people, John. I really am. Like I don't have, I don't know, single one of them. And I don't have a bad thing to say about any of them.

But I worry for them. I have just a genuine concern in my heart for them because those combination of doctrines that they taught them is a very dangerous combination of beliefs. Fifold ministry manifested sons of God, positive confession.

Those contain all of the essential elements to produce a destructive cult, right? And it doesn't seem like they've taken the reformative route after they discovered these things, right? Maybe more like Calvary Chapel has.

They've continued on down the road with some of these things. But they've, through Fifold ministry, they've got the authoritarian leadership structure through manifested sons of God. They've got the carrot on the stick they're chasing.

And through positive confession type beliefs, they've got the brainwashing thought control techniques, right? So they've got everything they need to a dangerous person can take over and something very bad can happen, right? So the same is in the message.

They have the core elements of doctrine that allow the creation of a terrible destructive cult. Like you said, it's dangerous. You have people who have good intentions, who I think if they could kind of deprogram a bit, they'd probably be okay and they would probably reform.

And they keep somewhat safe. But the problem is it's like a train without rails. The moment that person passes away or steps down and some crazy nut job gets involved, well, he's got the insanity in his head, plus he's got the means to create a destructive cult.

And that combination is what explodes into a new cult. New splinter group. And that's how we see time and time again, these splinter groups of the message form. And Bethel, you know, there's a lot of talk about Bethel out there.

Bethel is deeply influenced by these Kansas City prophet guys. And you hear people talk about the new Apostolic Reformation and the NAR. So the seeds for that are right here in the third wave of Pentecostalism.

The new Apostolic Reformation can be directly connected back to the Kansas City prophets, directly connected back to the Shepherding Movement, directly connected back to the Word of Faith Movement. And from there, it's very easy to connect these dots right back to William Brannum and the Laterane Movement.

So the new Apostolic Reformation is a child of the charismatic movement and a grandchild of the Laterane Movement, right? It's just another iteration of the same ideology with the new flavor and a new spin on it.

When you look at Paul Cain as the father of this new Apostolic Reformation mess, William Brannum is the grandfather because Paul Cain was William Brannum's mouthpiece. And like you said, it's so fascinating to think of all the intricate details of how they emerged and evolved and cross-pollinated.

But at its core, at its foundation was this purely evil thing that you showed me the article from T. L. Osborne the other day talking about, you know, when this wonderful thing began and at what was the date, it was like he said 1944, I think, is whenever this wonderful thing we have now began, well, he is actually pointing back to the rise of William Brannum's one of his versions of stage persona.

Yeah, it's something else. And when you step back and you compare things, there's inconsistencies. And people who don't study this closely maybe don't pick up the inconsistencies. But like, you take Paul Cain's testimony of things that he says, something's off, something the dates don't add up right, something's off in there, you know.

And then compare to William Brannum or maybe to T. L. Osborne version, the dates don't line up right. They're either remembering things wrong, right? Or they're twisting facts, right? In order to fit an agenda.

But yeah, there's definitely and penicostalism in general is guilty of this, a mythologizing the history of all of this, right? They have, these movements are very heavily founded upon certain concepts of their mythologized history, right?

They're not all of their authority derives from scripture. A fair part of their authority derives from modern supernatural events and maintaining the mythology around those modern supernatural events is critical to these guys maintaining their movement.

Because if you take that away, then they're in their mind through ideology breaks in a key way because they're not really founded in a way that's entirely Bible-based, right? So which is, in and of itself, most people would say is a problem.

But that actually goes to the heart of all of this stuff, right? I mean, that's why when we say maybe the things we do about William Brannum that the message cracks up because they have to have this mythology around William Brannum to justify their beliefs, right?

I mean, just believe in the Bible and believe in Jesus isn't enough, right? So their belief is founded on things that simply are not in the Bible. And so these mythologies have to exist to justify these belief systems.

And it's really part of the extra biblical things that justify their existence and their belief systems. And they really have a hard time too because I mean, think about this. Jesus in the 12 disciples, you had 12 disciples.

who were, you know, 11 of them were really good men, and then you had one that was there to basically betray Jesus. You don't find, you find ministries that emerge from the 12 disciples, from the 11 disciples that grew into blossoming churches all, you know, spread across the world.

That's how Christianity spread. You don't find too many churches of Judas, you know what I'm saying? Well, you've got this post-World War II healing revival. There were some really genuinely good men that were involved.

I'm not saying that they had right theology. I'm not saying that I agree with everything they said, but the men themselves were genuinely good Christian men in whatever way they were deceived to be part of this thing.

There were some good people in it. But then you had William Brannum, who we've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, almost lying through his teeth, connected to whites, the Pernosy group, I mean, connected to so many evil things.

He was the Judas among the bunch, and all of these groups were built on top of William Brannum. So what do you do with that? You can't say that I'm the second church of Judas.

You have to, you have to basically uplift the guy. We'll look at the New Apostolic Reformation. You've got all of these men in the New Apostolic Reformation that say William Brannum had the greatest gift of discernment ever, and they don't tell you about all the plants and all the fakes and all the mistakes where the discernment failed.

They don't tell you about the failed healings where William Brannum said, thus say at the Lord you're healed, and then they died or they weren't healed. They literally have to take the Judas among them and say this Judas is the best Judas ever.

And that's what they did with William Brannum in his ministry. And Charles, it's really scary because that's what created the New Apostolic Reformation. Yeah, what underpins the, I will say, the ones that are the scariest theologically, I'll say the scariest theologically, the scariest in their thinking are the ones who, the messages is in this category.

They don't think Jesus can save you, right? At the root of it, right? They no longer believe, I can believe in Jesus, Jesus died on the cross. I'm saved, I'm gonna make it. They've introduced these concepts that, okay, Jesus died, and that's got me here, but I've got to get myself into this end day state.

I've got to reach the stature of a perfect man. I've got to reach a manifested son of God. There's these things that we as a church have to do in order to then be able to receive the rapture to receive the end of day scenario, right?

And they all have just different little spins on that, but their whole focus is not Jesus died for you. You're saved. They're, Jesus died for you. That's not enough. You now need to do all these other things in order to make it into the end of day scenario, right?

And so that's what they all, I'll do, and a lot of them, it is this last day revival concept where, which float out of manifested suns of God, where they are all trying to get into the supernatural gift states, where they can go about and do these special things that will bring on the end of days, or reach the special lifestyle that's going to, you know, let it all happen.

All of this, this, though, that concept float out a ladder rain. And that's what all of these groups are chasing. They're chasing their, their interpretation of this thing that ladder rain set up that they need to pursue to bring on the end of days, right?

And it takes different shapes, it takes different forms. And at the heart of it, though, at the very heart of it is, is, even though maybe it's not directly expressed, it's the belief that Jesus dying on the cross wasn't enough to save them and get them through the tribulation or get them through the end of day scenario and into heaven.

There's something they have got to do in order to finally make it into heaven, right? And so it ultimately denies the sufficiency of Christ, a lot of these beliefs when you actually take the time to analyze it and that's probably the most theological statement I've made since we've done this podcast.

But there you go. Well, I mean, literally if you follow their doctrines out to their logical conclusion, these guys become the mediator between God and man, which is anti-biblical. They present themselves as though you have to believe what they say, you have to believe in them.

William Brannum said the message and the messenger are one and you can't be saved without listening to the messenger. In other words, unless you listen to me, you're not going to heaven. So these men are creating mediators between God and man.

And what's really bad is, like you said, when it doesn't happen, whatever prophecy, whatever prediction they have, well, then they have to go to the next one and the next one. And they try to bring themselves into the state of perfection that can never be achieved while they're human.

And that's the same thing that happened in the early Christianity with nosticism. And there's so many similarities between the nostics and this thing that emerged from the Laterane. There were nostic groups that died out because they would try to achieve the state of perfection and one group would say, well, we're not going to have sex anymore because sex is evil.

Well, that group died out because they didn't produce any offspring. So you've got this weird thing in their heads and it's very, very destructive. Right. It's this pursuit of these things they think they need to do for the end time scenario that becomes their driving focus, whether it's signs, wonders, miracles, powerments of the Holy Spirit, whether it's whatever flavor of the manifested sons of God's stuff is, that becomes their whole focus.

then they of course have predictions. This is going to happen, and then this is going to happen. And then as each one doesn't happen, right, they get more radical and more radical. And then they spiritualize what was supposed to happen.

And at each iteration, they take one more step into radicalness, and radicalness, and radicalness. And that's why it takes time. It takes time for these groups to turn into these terrible destructive cults, right?

Because it takes a process of time, of just running through these iterations of failed prophecies, of failed things to gradually radicalize them, their minds to bring them into these states. And so you take these groups, and you look at the average one, once they get 20, 30, and 40 years old, you look at the message, it gets scary as time goes on in these groups.

Yeah, it is really scary. I mean, if you were to ask me, is any one of these groups going to move to South America and drink cyanide laced choulade? Well, I don't know. I mean, each one of these groups could, whenever you have a Doomsday theology, and your Doomsday scenario fails, whether it's political leader A, or contrary invading another country B, whenever that doesn't bring the quote unquote rapture, well, now you have to go to the next one.

And many times, whenever they create these Doomsday scenarios, the burden of being saved is on the shoulders of the people. It's not on the work that Jesus did on the cross. You have to save yourselves by doing this thing that we say is going to make you more holy.

Well, that weight gets heavier and heavier and heavier with time, and you get, I mean, we've talked about it sadly. There are many people in these cults that commit suicide because they can't take the weight of the burdens that are placed on their shoulders.

It is a very destructive thing that these men are doing. Right. And John, we could talk for hours about these things, couldn't we? Maybe as we, as we start to wrap this episode up, I hope we've shown our listeners how to connect the new apostolic reformation back to the Latter-Rang movement through Paul Cain, through Tommy Osborne, right?

Through these figures, there's very clear easy paths to connect word of faith and the large charismatic denominations back to Latter-Rang, will you, Brandon? It's just there for anybody who wants to look at it.

And there's so much stuff we've left out here today. I mean, let me refer you back to this little diagram. If you want to maybe get a high level overview of how some of these groups are interrelated.

There's so much stuff we've left out here. I mean, we could honestly do a multiple episodes on every single movement on that diagram. We've already done some of these. If you want to go back to our earlier episodes, we've touched on a lot of these things already.

If you want another good source, I'll point you to the New Charismatics by Michael Moriarty. This is a- really good book. You can find some cooperating information of the things we've talked about here today. I really like the way that this book is wrote. It's really well researched and it's really focused on how this ideology evolved over time. So check out this book if you'd like to learn more about the things we talked about today. And for me, what interests me is how the ideology evolved and turned into what we have today. To me, that's what has drove my interest in looking

at all of these things, not necessarily all the other aspects, but how this ideology came to be how it evolved over time where it came from and the patterns we can see in it.

Yeah, don't take our word for it. You can easily, what we research, you can research too. It all is out there. I mean, the problem that I think a lot of people have is each one of these splinter groups has denied its own history. And if you ask any of the leaders in this, they're going to say, no, we did not descend from William Brannum. That guy went off the rails and he was evil.

And the problem is if you take their theology, you're going to find its roots in William Brannum's extrabiblical theology. So without question, these groups emerge from it. And like Charles said, we could talk for hours and hours about the different splinter groups. We're just literally skimming the surface of what was created from this thing. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org and Christian-GospelChurch.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Brannum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William

Brannum in his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible. Join us again next week. We've got a great episode coming.

We'll see you next week.