The Cloud: Leslie Douglas Ashley

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org. And with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Charles Paisley, the founder of Christian Gospel Church.

Together, we're examining the history and the intersections in history between William Brannum and other key figures that either influenced or were influenced by the post-World War II healing revivals. Charles, today we have a complicated ball of mess to untangle.

I want to do this for some time because this is such a complex topic that people who just look at some of the details, they really don't grasp the full depth of how problematic this is for the message and William Brannum.

There's so much to it, there's so many different angles to take. And I've wanted to dive deeper. I know that I've published a few like 30-minute videos and whatnot, but really 30 minutes can't even begin to scratch the surface of this.

The subject we're getting into today involves the background that was created when Richard Nixon initiated the ladder rain and voice of healing and full gospel businessmen charged to spread the fear of communism. You had the actual fear of communism, the Russian threat that was rising in the United States.

You had the rise of white supremacy being very outspoken, being very public, lynching people of color, just horrific history in the civil rights movement. And then if you look at every single person whose ministry was created by this thing that William Brannum was leading, they will all tell you that this is the point in time at which William Brannum went astray.

And they'll totally ignore all the history leading up to this, which was, in my opinion, it was actually worse than all of this. But this is the point in which they tell you that William Brannum went astray.

And he had a great ministry. quote unquote, of God up until this point in 1963, and then he went astray. And, you know, our story gets really complicated, really funny, really strange. I doubt we finish it in probably even two episodes.

This is going to be really big. And it involves an actual circus clown. Yeah, we have a very unusual episode today, at least it's certainly unusual to me. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about a couple people who were on death row in 1963.

And at first, that might not seem all that important, except it actually breaks a key part of message, mythology, and its history, right? And because 1963, John, like you're getting at, is the most important supernatural event in the entire history of the message.

It supposedly happened that year. The face of Jesus supposedly appeared in the sky above William Brannum in Tucson, Arizona, and angels descended from heaven to give him a special commission that would lead to the opening of the seven seals.

And in the message, we believe that the opening of those seals was the ultimate culmination of the ministry of William Brannum. And in message beliefs, the opening of the seals in 1963 is what sets in motion the final phase of the preparation of the bride of Christ to get ready for the rapture.

And the whole story, the whole event, it's a very, holy, very sacred thing. And without it, the message just falls apart, honestly, because it's totally central to the teachings of the message. In my sect of the message, our preachers would say it was the most important, most dynamic thing to happen since the days of Jesus.

After the events of the resurrection, this thing that happened in 1963 is supposed to be the next most important thing that happened in the history of the church. But unfortunately, the entire story is totally made up.

The seals were not opened in 1963, William Brannum never met seven angels, and the face of Jesus never appeared in the sky. The whole thing is a total hoax. And in the next few episodes, we're going to start peeling back the layers upon layers and look at each part of it.

And that's the first part of what we're doing today. This is our first phase of that. And as we look at the story of these two people on death row, we're establishing the actual true timeline of what was happening during February and March of 1963.

Because the day the face of Jesus appeared over Arizona was February 28, 1963. That's the day, the picture of the cloud. I have originals of that, John. Wow. Look at this. I have originals.

This cloud appeared on February 28th, 1963. Like this is the day that this happened, okay? And we're gonna talk more about that probably in the next episode. But the day that that happened, William Brown was supposed to be out hunting standing underneath that cloud.

But as we look at the story of these two people on death row, we're just establishing that actual timeline for these things because instead of being out on a hunting trip and doing these very sacred and holy things, having this very holy experience and this very special visitation by angels, William Brown and was actually doing something else.

And what he was really doing was working with the committee of people to get Caroline Lima and Leslie Douglas Ashley off of death row. And so let's dive in, John. And maybe you can share with the audience who was Leslie Douglas Ashley?

And what was he on death row for? People who were brainwashed with this stuff, you know, the cult had this mythology. And like you said, it is the most fundamental element of the cult of personality that was created after 1963.

All of these men who say William Brown and went straight after 1963, that is because it was at that point, they tried to sever them themselves from him and it turned into a cult of personality.

And the cult of personality was built upon this event, like you said, this cloud thing. And we're going to be blowing heads because as we, as we try to unravel what that mythology was in the people's minds, we're also going to be bringing the facts that they're not telling the people when they brainwash them with William Brown and propaganda.

And William Brannum mentioned on recording that he won an Oscar from the Humane Society for saving a boy's life. And when your brainwashed with this type of thing and you hear the prophet who, according to the current cult mythology, every word spoken by William Brannum is thus say at the Lord.

That's a quote from William Brannum's own son who's the current central figure of this cult. When you're programmed in that mindset, which a large number of people are, and you hear the quote unquote prophets say that he won an Oscar from the Humane Society.

You don't think about it. You just, you don't even think about the fact that the Humane Society is not the one who gives you an Oscar and you don't receive an Oscar unless you're acting.

And this whole thing was an act. So William Brannum was literally telling the people, I'm acting and I won an Oscar for my performance. And it's so weird because the reason why he quote unquote won this Oscar from the Humane Society.

is because he was trying to rescue with a group of very famous people. We're gonna drop some names in this episode that I think will shock people. But this person who William Brannum allegedly won this Oscar for saving, his name was Leslie Douglas Ashley, and together with Caroline Lima, they had committed murder, and Ashley was the nephew of the two photographers who took William Brannum's halo photo back in, you know, in the 1950s. They held the copyright to the halo, and so they had something over William Brannum, and they were deeply connected to this laterane movement. Ashley's mother was deeply involved with the

movement, and there were some very famous people, Charles, who came to try to rescue this person, and what's interesting, they all fought for Leslie Douglas Ashley, because again, this is the man who is related to the guys that have the control of the halo photo. Almost universally, they never talk about trying to rescue the female who was involved in the same crime with the same person. There was always to rescue the man, and as we'll get into as we dive deeper, this person, Leslie Douglas Ashley, was a male who hated women, who considered himself to be a female, dressed like a female, was a prostitute with

another female prostitute, and they were together with a man named Fred Tom's, and there's really no good way to say this in a g-rated fashion, Charles, but they were having a three-day orgy in a hotel, and during, I won't get to graphic, you can find it in the newspapers if you search for Leslie Douglas Ashley, if you want to see the actual details, but during the course of the things that they were doing, Ashley pulls a gun and shoots the man and kills him. Right during the middle of this three-day thing they were doing, which I again, if you

want it, go go to the newspapers. So here's this person whose relatives have control of the halo photograph, who Charles, for lack of a better way to say it, would create the scenario for career suicide for any minister who's coming to try to even get involved with this. And you see William Brannum's campaign team come and try to save this guy. One of William Brannum's early campaign leaders, his name was Chaplain Ray, he went by the name Chaplain Ray, was trying to save him. John Osteen, Joe Osteen's father joined in this, this big laddering thing joined together to try to save Ashley.

And again, you had Ashley and you had Caroline Lima who were both facing execution. So this whole thing gets really weird and I won't go too deep yet, but there appeared to be some reasons why they would want to save this person.

Yeah, so Leslie Douglas Ashley was a homosexual prostitute and he was the stepson of James Ayer's who was one of the full gospel businessmen. And as you said, John, this family actually owned copyright control over the Halo photograph of William Brannum. And during 1961, along with Caroline Lima, Ashley was having that three-day weekend with a man named Fred Tone. We had a picture him right here, Fred Tone's. And during the event of that weekend, they shot him to death and then they burned his body and they dumped it in a ditch. And the next day, the police figured out

what happened and they ended up chasing the pair to arrest him. Somebody would, there was actually a witness that had seen them driving away in his car, so they also stole his car afterwards.

And gave their identities to police. And it launched really a nationwide manhunt. They thought they went to New Orleans, they chased him there, then they ended up in New York. They finally ended up arresting them in New York. Here's pictures of the moment of their arrest.

They're in New York, as you can see. It appears they're arresting two women, but it's actually a man and a woman that they're arresting. And so they ended up arresting them. They took them back to Texas.

And then it became national news again because once they were arrested, Leslie Douglas actually escaped prison. So he got out of prison after he was arrested, goes on the lamb again. So there is a second manhunt. He ends up on the FBI's top 10 most wanted list when this happens.

And so he's on the run a second time. So this was actually pretty big news back in the early 1960s when all this was happening. This was in national newspapers across the United States.

It was involving lots of different jurisdictions trying to hunt them down. And so anyways, they end up finally arrested, finally put in jail, finally locked away. They have a trial. They end up convicted. And the initial date, they're convicted to die.

The initial date for their execution is February 28, 1963, which if you guys remember, that's the date the cloud appeared, okay? And what happened as you get into late February, is that the fool?

Gospel businessmen, they organized a prayer vigil for Ashley in Lima, and they started bringing in the heavy hitters to campaign and to lobby and make appeals for the two to get pardoned by the governor to have their death sentence commuted.

And their prayer vigil went on for quite a while. There's different newspaper articles we have about it. We've got recordings of it. And it was, again, that was also fairly big news at the time.

And pictures of the convicted pair, here's pictures of them in the newspaper. You know, while this stuff is going on. And they're pretty obviously in good spirits, right, in the pictures. And there's news footage from the trial that's going on.

The day they were supposed to be executed, you know, there's reporters outside the jail, like we've got video footage of all that stuff. All this stuff's out there to be looked at, anyone wants to look at it.

And as you come into late February, all these religious figures are being called in and coming to Houston to try and use whatever influence they have to try and get these two off of death row.

Right. And like you said, Charles, they were the date was February 28, 1963 in message cult mythology. That is the date that seven angels allegedly came down to William Brannum and gave him the seven seals of revelation, the mysteries behind them.

And William Brannum spoke with these angels during a hunting trip in Tucson. He was allegedly hunting Havillina hogs during the time. And then the angels ascended into heaven and formed this supernatural cloud is, that's the mythology behind, you know, the cult of personality that formed.

And as you said, the date of this thing is February 28, 1963. The actual date that the Thor missile detonated, which we'll get into and created this cloud. But it goes even deeper than that.

If you take a step back and look at what all is happening here, William Brannum is, you know, again, he's committing what would otherwise be career suicide. But he's also trying to disconnect himself from it.

It's a very public event. So in Texas, everybody knows, but it's not like the world of today where if there's a convicted trial, you've got your news media, your social media, you, you did have radio back then.

And there were, you know, there were some news that went national, but it was nothing like today. So your average person in your message cult of personality churches from coast to coast, your average person did not know that William Brannum did this.

And William Brannum goes back into his hunting trip and then what we'll get into this later. But the timeline, if you examine the timeline that he gives to the people, he per- Purposefully changes the dates so that it would appear that he was not in Texas doing this thing.

As they organized this pervigil, they started bringing in big names. One of the preachers, the full gospel businessman, Brodyan, was Ray Hoxtra, Rayman Hoxtra. And if you remember, Ray Hoxtra was working very close with William Branham in the 1940s, when William Branham was still primarily operating among the United Pentecostal churches, Ray Hoxtra had actually been the pastor of Calvary Temple in Indianapolis, which was one of the largest UPC churches in the United States.

He'd been pastor there before he went off and became the campaign manager for a little David Walker, the floating boy, and started touring nationally with his roadshow and yet other people. And, you know, initially William Branham had been part of his tour.

And if you want, we actually talked quite a bit about Ray Hoxtra in that period back in episode 14 and 15, if someone wants to go back and listen to that. But as the healing revivals died down, Ray Hoxtra started to transition into a prison ministry.

And he became very well known as Chaplin Ray. And this event with Leslie Douglas Ashley, I believe this actually might be the start of his prison ministry, John, which is the thing that most people actually remember him for today.

That's what he's most well known to day force his prison ministry. Exactly. And again, it's such a weird thing, you know, William Branham saying that he won an Oscar from the Humane Society. I actually dug deep into this to try to figure out, was there any way in which William Branham even remotely tried to help the situation beyond, you know, inciting the people as anger against the government, et cetera, which he did.

You know, there are newspaper articles where it's talking about the mob of lettering Christians who are defending Leslie Douglas Ashley and their photographs of Ashley's mother out there, you know, protesting this thing, trying to save the life of Ashley.

And, you know, William Branham did, to some extent, influence the situation, which we'll get into a bit later. But William Branham gives Ashley a strategy that appears to have worked. And it's, it's a very unusual strategy because William Branham, again, he's creating this cult of personality, the cult of personality today that exists by and large believe that William Branham was the return of Elijah.

During all of this, William Branham apparently goes to Ashley and says, you too can be Elijah, because right after William Branham does this thing, Ashley begins claiming that he is the return of Elijah, the prophet, and he positions himself with an insanity plea.

So we don't know what William Branham said. to Ashley. We can't say, hey, go present yourself as Elijah, but we do see that William Brandham comes, something happens, something said to Ashley, after that something was said, William Brandham claims that he is the one who saved Ashley's life.

And the reason why this big buildup is happening to save his life is because of an insanity plea that emerges because Ashley becomes Elijah the prophet. So another big name that the full gospel businessman brought in was a man named John Osteen, who is the father of Joel Osteen.

And all these guys actually were working together back then. I mean, Joel Osteen probably met William Brandham, I'd say, as a boy, John Osteen was working with William Brandham quite a bit, but Joel Osteen and John Osteen, they're actually both pastors of the same church.

And Joel took over his father's church after his father died. So anyways, John Osteen, he gets called in by the full gospel businessman to help Leslie Douglas Ashley. And John Osteen, he goes into the cell, he visits Leslie Douglas Ashley, and he supposedly leads him to Christ, and he got him to record a testimony on tape of how he repented and how he became a Christian.

And you can listen to the tape, we actually have a copy of it. I went with Alma Hart, body and soul to be able to reign with Jesus Christ. My God, I see the second life and kingdom.

At that moment, I believe in my inner thoughts to another vision, that the change in me took place and from darkness I passed into Christ's light. Although at the time I was in January, I may say, I was convinced without a doubt that God is everywhere, he could be found anywhere.

He was solved, even here in death row. I saw how God was present when Palantines were bound in prison. I saw God was present in the overheated furnace and delivered Shadrach, me Shadrach had been to go without a blemish as the battle pointed out.

But basically, if you listen to the tape that they made of Ashley, it's pretty clear he's actually just reading a prepared statement off a piece of paper. And the whole thing about his conversion story, I'll be honest, it comes across as really disingenuous.

So I think I'll just leave it up to our listeners if you want to decide for yourself what you think about that. But for me, personally, when I listen to Ashley's conversion to Christ's story, I just don't feel like it's genuine what I'm hearing.

And I think it's really fair for us to say that these big name preachers came in and they were just helping Ashley create a cover story rather than really bringing him to faith in Christ.

I don't believe there was any sort of a genuine conversion going on there at all. You can listen to your tapes yourself, see what you think you might have a different opinion. But in the end, they all did a really good job of helping Ashley make his cover story.

The full gospel businessmen and all their friends, they really laid it on thick. And remember, Charles, this was before Ashley broke out of prison and made the FBI's most wanted list. He was quote unquote saved. He was then granted a stay of execution.

Then he broke out and went on the lamb and made all of these men who touted his salvation and put him up on a totem pole as having been saved by God, put mud on all of their faces.

Gordon Lindsay and Jack Moore even got involved. They published In Voice of Healing articles, which we have here. They've got excerpts of the conversion testimony. The John Osteen helped him put together. They put Leslie Douglas Ashley's photo in Voice of Healing magazine.

And it's all designed to try and get people to sign onto this petition to have his death sentence commuted. And when you look at all over just all these different big names, you know, every, every organ that the full businessman can pull into it. James Ares can pull into it. You can see this elaborate coordinated effort by all these men to rehabilitate Ashley's image and try to show everyone he was a changed man. Right. And remember, again, this was a prostitute dressed as a woman who's working with another prostitute for a three day orgy, in which they shot the man who paid for the orgy. So you've got, I'm trying to, and trying to

picture this child, but you have all of these full gospel business men, Laterane guys who are defending this thing, who again is connected directly to the Halo photograph. And you have to understand in Texas back during this time, actually in the United States during this time, they did not really understand what we what we'd now discuss as the transsexual community.

They understood homosexuality. And if you go read any newspaper about Leslie Douglas Ashley at that time during this era, they called him homosexual. This was a homosexual prostitute who dressed as a woman. And the notion of transsexual just kind of, you know, it was so different back then that being a homosexual who dressed as a woman was also grounds for an insanity plea back in Texas during this time, because they did, again, they did not understand the transsexual community at all. But to the people who he is presenting this testimony of being saved, which, again, I'm with you, it sounds very, very forced. Ashley is appealing to a community that by and

large, see his transsexual, his homosexual, his prostitution, they see all of this thing as the greatest evil that ever existed. To the extent that there are many people in the cult of personality that formed after 1963, that if you're a homosexual child, it is an unpardonable sin you are doomed to hell.

There is no hope for you. I grew up with people like this and I've actually heard that statement from other people who I won't give their names, but ranking people in the message, that's the views and that's go listen to any sermon, that's how they talk.

That is the community that he's appealing to because again, his family is connected to the Halo photograph. They own the rights to the Halo photograph. Even still today, if you look at the copyright of the photograph, it's held by Douglas Studios still today.

That's the company for James Iars and Theodore Kipperman, the relatives of this transsexual prostitute who killed a man. And again, like you Charles, this sounds very forced. It does not sound genuine. It's he's obviously reading from a paper and he's saying, yes, I will, I will read this thing for you if you can help save my life.

And behind the scenes, Charles, I'm thinking and we'll continue to let you use the Halo photograph that we have the copyright to.

It's something else, John. I mean, there's so many news stories. I think that this is probably the most interesting of the printed versions of the stories of what happened. Let me just read, let me just read part of this.

You know, that way are the people listening online can see how this is being covered in the news. Because you know, this is an entirely different time. And just imagine William Brown, I'm deciding to connect himself to this.

Here is what this says. This is the headline on here. It says, she hated men. He hated women. So the teenage lesbian and the prancing mans decided to put their cross-wires together in the queerest mating this side of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Oh, holy cow, John. Soon she had to become a prostitute to help pay for their purple passion. It was the most perverted partnership and the end result was sheer, unadulterated murder. So this is the kind of newspaper art.

This is the press that these guys are getting, okay? That's not a good press, John. I mean, it don't get no worse than that, okay?

So this is going on. They're both scheduled to be executed on February 28th. And again, remember February 28th, the most important date in the history of the message, the date the cloud appeared in Arizona.

And it just so happens that these two were set to be executed that day. But in the week leading up to the execution, this committee of men that was leading the pervigil were able to get the governor of town.

access to approve a petition and delay the death sentence for 30 days. And so on February 27, this prayer vigil goes into overdrive. And James Ayers, a full gospel businessman, he started getting more desperate and more desperate and calling in every favor that he could.

He was exhausting basically every resource he had access to to try and get his steps on off of death row. And this is about the time that they pull William Brannum into the picture.

Somehow they reach out to William Brannum, they convince him to come help out. And so William Brannum travels from Tucson, Arizona to Houston, Texas to take part in this prayer vigil. So William Brannum, he packs up, he travels over a thousand miles, this is a long journey, he leaves Arizona, he goes to Texas, and you're looking at at least one day of travel each way, that long of a journey back then, by car.

So William Brannum drops everything, he goes to help get Leslie Douglas Ashley off of death row. And like you mentioned, John, they hardly mention the girl, right? And the reason they hardly mention the girls, because the guy who is behind trying to get them all on death row really only cares about the boy, because that's his stepson.

You know, the girl is a, don't matter too much to them, the focus is all on saving Leslie Douglas Ashley. You know, most anyone who has talked to me about this, John, and I got to say even me myself, I just wonder why in the world would William Brannum do this?

Because this seems to be just so very incongruent with the way he presented his ministry, and it would be really, really strange, and it is just so really, really strange that he was willing to become publicly involved, trying to get a convicted homosexual prostitute murderer off of death row.

It is really odd, and it raises a whole lot of questions, Charles, that I really can't answer. But, you know, in the past few episodes, we've examined the homosexual history of William Brannum, and we've actually not even gone as deep as we want to with that yet.

You've got all of these homosexual men who are surrounding William Brannum, who William Brannum openly takes in his arms and says, here be my tape boys who are the scribes for my message, or, you know, campaign leaders, et cetera.

You've got this unusual conglomeration of men who are in a movement that strongly condemns homosexuality, who are trying to save a homosexual, actually, transsexual back then, but they called him homosexual, who held the rights to the Halo photograph.

It's such an unusual story, Charles. And it's this weird, huge intersection of all of these histories and the strangest of all again is that you've got these men who are working with Brannum, who many of them I am certain are aware that William Brannum himself has homosexuals in his campaign party.

There's no way that they did not know this. Who bring William Brannum, the man who's got the homosexuals in his party and try to save the homosexuals. Charles, it blows my mind and I'm somewhat disconnected from the brainwashing and programming that was in my head.

It still blows my mind to even try to think of this. For me, it's still kind of fuzzy as to why William Brannum got involved in this. I think there are several plausible explanations for why he did this and it's possible that multiple of them are in play here, maybe not just a single explanation.

I think the halo photograph could very likely have had something to do with it. I could see that, but of course you can't completely get inside of William Brannum's head to analyze his thoughts, but I do think it's very safe for us to say that William Brannum was not trying to get Ashley Lima off death row simply out of the goodness of his heart.

I believe we're very justified in suspecting that there is something under the covers here that compelled William Brannum to get involved in this pervigil that we don't know about. At this stage, from a financial perspective, the full gospel businessmen are the key men financing William Brannum's ministry here.

It's possible William Brannum got involved here just to keep the money flowing, right? That's possible. These men have been very financially generous to William Brannum. I could understand why he felt obligated to him, maybe from that perspective.

And then there's other things we could wonder about, right? I mean, like you said, if you think back to the homosexual episode, and I think this is worth pointing out, Leslie Douglas actually was born in Indiana.

They're from Indiana, and we don't know exactly what time they first came into contact with William Brannum or what years they moved to Texas, right? So we don't know that backstory. So there are quite a few possible angles which could have compelled William Brannum to participate in these pervigils and the efforts to save his life.

And I feel it's very likely that whatever it was, there was something going on that made William Brannum feel compelled to do this because there's more to this story than we know. One thing that we should point out Charles, because again, this is such a complicated mess that especially if you were programmed and brainwashed with this mythology, you really avoid the critical details because that programming still to some extent is in your head.

Think of any normal, non-cult minister. who's organizing a protest to save the life of somebody, leading up to that protest. There is going to be talk about, you know, I'm going to do this thing, I would like for you to pray for me.

Please get involved, you know, plea with God that this guy be saved, right? These are the years that we have the most recordings of William Brannum. This almost everything the man said was recorded during this period of time.

We do not find any evidence of any plea with the people leading up to this. Hey, I'm going to go save the boy's life, pray with me, ask God that he saved this boy's life.

What we instead find is that after he does it, he tries to fully erase it by changing his timeline and introducing this cloud story. Very strange, very strange, and you know, today, John, today if something like this happened here in 2023, and I'll say things like this have happened in the message in recent years. There have been people connected to the message who have been involved in these lifestyles, have went to jail, and have went on death row. I could actually give you specific cases. But here today, if this thing happened today and everyone in the message knows

this truth, there is not a single message preacher in the entire world who try to get these guys off death row. That would not happen. The typical response in the message to something like this would be to celebrate the execution of justice. I mean, that would be that would be the message response to this situation, okay? Not to help get them off death row. So it's really bizarre that William Brannum did this, right? It is so far outside of his teachings and his persona, right? And the message. And so it just tells me that there is something more to this story.

There's something more going on here that made William Brannum feel compelled to go to this pervigil. And here's the thing. You can actually listen to this pervigil, right? The parts where William Brannum spoke is recorded on tape, which means there were some tape boys there, right, John?

Thank you, Brother Huckstrins. Good evening to Houston. Certainly, Dean, that's a great privilege of being here again tonight in Houston. It's been many years since I've had the privilege of being here. And I've been setting listening tonight to each of these speakers. And the other day, when I had arrangements made for something else, another place, and I knew that those children were facing death. I thought if something would have happened to those children, I would never forgive myself. I'm not coming here to give my opinion and doing all that I could to help this and father and of these children and to do all that I could for the saving of their lives.

And William Brannum preached and called the sermon there an absolute. And so it's pretty funny that William Brannum talks about this whole situation on tape. You could listen to the whole thing on tape, but you know he never actually says on tape the details of this case. He never really tells that he was actually trying to get a convicted homosexual prostitute murderer off death row, right? Like he never says what what it's about, right? It's always I'm trying to help save the life of these children. There's no these children who are homosexual prostitutes and murder demand and burned his body. Like there's not that part of it. It's just so weird,

you know, as you listen to him talk about all of this stuff. You'd think that these are just some you know he sees rescue in a couple little innocent children out of a concentration camp or something, but I mean that these people are I mean they murdered a guy they burned his body, they ran from police, they escaped prison, you know, and and and they're they don't look the least bit repentant in jail. I mean I got to say they do not look at least bit repentant. So anyways there we go. It's something else. It's just something else. And again I'll point out William Brannum

when he talked about this it was always to save the life of the boy. He does mention the girl in a couple of places, but I'll read a quote. He says well I was called in a case the other day.

You know over here in Texas I got a little certificate from them the other day saving a life. We went over there for that little ire's. The man that had taken the picture of the angel of the Lord that night over there in Houston and criticized me and everything in the world about me threw his arms around me and hugged me and said just thank brother Brannum. The very man that I said was hypnot practicing hypnosis has come to save my son from the electric chair. That's right.

I talked to them before all. What did the governor do? He pardoned it. Oh my again he's there. He's talking about saving the boy's life. And he's telling the people yeah this is the guy that took the photo and I saved his son's life. But what about the girl? You know in most cases William Brannum never ever mentioned the girl which makes it very apparent that his whole reason for being there was for James ires and Theodore Kipperman who had the halo photograph to save the boy.

The girl was in the same crime. The girl had the same sentence. It's very clear he is called in some kind of favor from William Brannum. Something happened there that pulled him in specifically to help Leslie Douglas actually. One thing I'm also curious to know more about John is Fred Tom's the man they murdered. And it seems like a distinct possibility that Fred tones himself could very well have been one of the full gospel businessmen. He could have been one himself had seen, you know, this past week, I spent some time reading all the different newspaper

articles about him, just trying to find more about him. And some of the articles about him and his family certainly leave me with the impression that that's a possibility. And, you know, if that's the case, right, that just adds a whole nother layer of sickness to this whole thing, you know, yeah. But that that is something I wish I could find more information about.

We do know that Ashley's mother was involved and there's some testimony there. It appears to me if I'm understanding the situation correctly, John Osteen was very big in the full gospel businessmen's community, his whole ministry, actually, if you go back and read the history of it, it was started by the full gospel businessmen for the latter rain. He was a latter rain preacher. I have you somewhere on the website, and I'll try to pull it up for the podcast for the video version. But he's preaching, you know, with Jack Moore, Jack Moore's church, this guy is deeply connected to William Brannum in the latter rain

movement. So you have this whole community in Houston, where they have all these latter rain people. And apparently, Ashley is his family, somewhat famous in it, because these are the guys that took the Halo photograph. And Charles, they weren't reputable guys. I've got, and I'll pull up the government document for the video feed. But these guys were counterfeiters, Charles, the guys that took the Halo photograph were counterfeiters. And they got prosecuted for it. So you've got these counterfeiters who took a Halo photograph, who to this day own the Halo photograph, whose nephew is a transsexual

prostitute, who murdered a man, and all of this latter rain community is coming to the aid to save the boy, not the girl, though boy is being saved because that family is the one who took the alleged Halo photograph. Yeah, and if you look, I'll just throw this in. If you carefully look at what they're doing, they're actually trying to blame the girl through this, they're saying the girl murdered him, Leslie Douglas actually is innocent.

Like that is actually what they're throwing her under the bus through this thing. Honestly, if you look at the strategy, part of the strategy they employed, which is, I don't know how I feel about that, probably not good. There, you know, there's there's another really weird thing here in this story, too, John, and I we've got to point this out, you've mentioned it already, and it's the insanity defense plea that was made by Leslie Douglas Ashley. So as this whole story is unfolding, Leslie Douglas Ashley is trying to demonstrate that he is insane.

And the proof that he is insane, the thing he keeps telling the judges and the psychiatrists is that he is Elijah the prophet, Elijah the prophet. And of course, you know, the average person hears that, and that sounds weird, right?

But if you're in the message and you hear that, and you hear that William Brannum has been involved trying to help get him off death row, I mean, that sounds really weird. I mean, extra weird, right?

And you just have to ask a question, you know, where did he get this idea to start saying he was Elijah the prophet? Because, you know, it's a really bizarre coincidence because at this time in 1963, the cult following a William Brannum believed that he was Elijah the prophet.

And so at least the return of Elijah the prophet, the anointing of Elijah the prophet, right? And so I think the fact that Leslie Douglass actually was saying such a similar thing is just too much of a coincidence for me.

And I think it's very, very safe for us to say somewhere somehow he got that idea from the teachings of the message, if not from William Brannum himself. I tend to agree with William Brannum.

William Brannum says that he saved the life. And if you examine everything that happened that actually saved his life, it seemed that the turning point for Ashley, you even read it in the newspapers, the turning point was when he started this Elijah claim.

He began claiming to be the return of Elijah and they said, yes, this man is truly insane. There's no mention in the newspaper that the guy who is leading the protest also is insinuating that he also is Elijah the prophet who is, you know, by the same critique would also be insane. But Charles, for me, it gets even worse, right?

You almost can't get worse than what we've talked about so far. But William Brannum uses this event. He, again, he doesn't mention the homosexual, he doesn't mention the transsexual, doesn't mention the prostitution, all of the weird stuff.

All he says is, I saved the boy's life from the electric chair. And this goes down into cult mythology as William Brannum saved a life. And you'll find these little children's cars. Did you know William Brannum saved a life by saving a boy from the electric chair?

In 1964, while William Brannum is still making these claims, Leslie Douglas Ashley formed the Ashley Ires Evangelistic Association, wherein he becomes a evangelist in this movement. This transsexual who later will get into this, in another episode, who later did transition to a woman in later years.

He became Leslie Perez. This person who doesn't believe any of this stuff, who If you listen to the testimony of salvation, he's reading from a paper. You can clearly tell this guy is reading from a paper that he fully doesn't agree with.

Claims to be Elijah, forms the Ashley Ayers, Evangelistic Association, and while he's out doing this religious thing, of which he'll later denounce, William Brandham is saying that he saved a life. Now, all of the weirdness aside, Charles, take the cult out and just think normal Christianity.

In normal Christianity, there is one sole purpose to save the lost. So in normal Christianity, this could be a good thing. If you save the person's life who is clearly living a life of sin, share the gospel with them, bring them to the gospel, and help save their soul to a Christian that is saving a life.

You share the gospel with them. They have chose Jesus. They're going to be in heaven. Their life is saved. In the cult, in William Brandham's cult of personality, this saving a life is saving the mortal flesh from being electrocuted.

It's not even focused on the actual saving of the actual soul to bring them into heaven. Brandham doesn't care at all. He saved him from the electric chair and he Brandham uses the phrase, saving a life.

This person continued the same life of sin, transitioned into a woman, and was a strong supporter of President Bill Clinton in the later years, which would blow the minds of the cult. This whole thing, a homosexual person, according to the Bible, anybody can be saved.

The things that this person did can be redeemed in it, and we don't know, like I've not studied the very end of his life, was he saved, was he not? I don't know. I should say was she saved, was she not?

But according to message standards of what the message cult of personality considers to be salvation, this person went to hell. That's core message cult theology. And while all of this is happening, William Brandham says he saved a life in every cult minister who parrots William Brandham sermons will say that he saved that life.

But it's an internal conflict because also, according to message cult theology, this person is doomed to hell. So the life was saved in the human regards, but the soul, according to message cult theology, the soul was eternally damned.

So at the end of the day, I just keep shaking my head all through this John. I mean, I'm just like this is, if this hadn't happened on February 28th, 1963, right? Like I probably just, who would even, I probably would almost not even, care but this okay but the date it's unbelievable I mean it's unbelievable but wait there's more so I have the book Charles dangerous games a true story of a convicted murderer on death row who changed his sex and won her freedom by Robert L Bentley and this is the authoritative book on Leslie Perez or Leslie Douglas Ashley and according to this book in 1950 when the halo

photograph was taken Leslie's mother Sylvia worked for Douglas Studios that's the company that holds the copyright to this halo photo it was her brother Ted Kippermann's business and her husband Jim who went by text ires worked with her at Douglas Studios Sylvia Leslie Douglas Ashley's mother was the business manager for Douglas Studios and Leslie went by the name Douglas Douglas Studios and he worked at the Douglas Studios but at the same time that he's working there according to this book Leslie or Douglas had already started prostitution you started prostitution before his teens which means that everybody who we're talking about today every single one of them

was involved Sylvia's mother was the business manager you've got Theodore Kippermann and Jim ires who were the two photographers that are mentioned and you've got Leslie Douglas Ashley who was he worked in touching up and doctorate the photographs so he was also deeply involved but because he had started his prostitution there's a very strong possibility that he was hooking at the Houston debate event where William Brannum's Houston photograph the famous halo photograph was taken and according to this book it gives a detailed account of the trial of Leslie Douglas Ashley in Caroline Lima and according to this book it was because of that halo photograph that

they reached out and contacted William Brannum to come speak at this event trying to get Leslie Douglas Ashley off of death row for execution and according to this book and this you know this is the authoritative book this person actually spoke with the Kippermanns and the ires Sylvia ires had contacted William Brannum almost 30 days before the scheduled execution which puts it long before this cloud event they're already talking to William Brannum to come to Houston so not only did William Brannum you know not only was he dishonest about being under this cloud does, you know, as he said, look, you know, the timeline of the hunting places it after

going to Houston, right? Not only was he dishonest about that, he knew based on these dates that he, he was scheduled to go to Houston almost 30 days before, before this cloud even happened.

So, so at the end of the day, you know, this prayer vigil and everything was successful. And the judge ended up commuting the death sentence and Ashley and Lima both ended up getting out of prison after a couple years of legal wrangling.

And so after Leslie Douglas actually got out of prison, just like you said, John, he went on to become a very prominent figure in Texas. Go figure, right? I mean, how does this kind of thing happen?

I have no idea, but it does. Only in Texas. So, he became a Democrat politician. He ran for Congress. He made a full transition to become a woman and he made lots of speeches.

He was a very active, busy activist for transvestite causes. And through all of that, I have to say, he made it pretty clear he was no longer a Christian. I think certainly the message version of Christianity.

And to me, it's just so unusual because, you know, after the voice of healing published, the Leslie Douglas actually conversion story, after what John Osteen did, after what Chaplain Ray Hoekstra did, after William Brown, I'm taking all up for him, you know, all of the stuff that they did to rehabilitate his image and say he was now a Christian.

It is very clear when you read the newspaper articles about Ashley's later life, he was not a Christian. He repudiated Christianity. Maybe he had a death-bred conversion, like you said, God knows. But it's very obvious that the whole conversion thing, at the time that they were presenting it, was just a big, fake story that those people were creating to help get him off death row.

There's just no way around that. And I will say, I think it is entirely possible that Ashley and Lima, they may have killed their customer in self-defense. I'll just say that. It's possible they did not deserve the death sentence, right?

And I can honestly see that a case could maybe be made for that. So I really don't have a problem that their death sentence was commuted. And I trust the justice system made the right decision, right?

I mean, that's all you can do. But for these preachers to fake, a Christian conversion, I really do find that reprehensible John. It shows how all of these guys are willing to abuse Christianity and to abuse their positions.

And whether they were doing that for the sake of money, that the full gospel businessman was paying them, or whether it was for some other reason, you know, whatever it is. These preachers were all engaged in some really questionable behavior.

And this whole situation, it honestly should make you seriously question the integrity of men like Chaplin Ray and John Osteen and William Brannum. You know, it's a good thing to help people in need, but when you morally compromise yourself in the process, like making up lies to an advance in agenda, right?

Which is a very clear thing they were doing in this story, that is corrupt behavior. And that's a clear red flag that all of these men have serious character deficiencies. And I think what this story does do, for me anyways, it is demonstrates how some of these people in these systems get preferential treatment, Chaplin.

People with money, people with power, people with connections, those people get a special level of treatment from the message, from these groups, they're willing to compromise principles for people like that. And that kind of special treatment, Chaplin, can accurately be characterized as corruption of the leaders.

And that's what the Bible says about it too. This is corrupt activity, this is corrupt behavior of corrupt men with corrupt character. It is corrupt, but Charles, the bottom line for me is this, Leslie Douglas Ashley was a statistic.

When you take a step back and just examine the bigger picture of what this laterane movement did, each person that they claimed healing in the moment was a statistic. If you showed up to a meeting and you claimed that you were healed, you didn't actually have to be healed.

You just said, yes, I accept my healing. You became a statistic. If you went home and died after that, you were still that same statistic to these people. You still were accounted among the people healed, even though you died.

The problem for me, the bottom line is, the statistic is so flawed in this movement that it's not just the healing that they count as a statistic, it's the salvation. Leslie Douglas Ashley, who became Leslie Perez, was a statistic of saved.

William Brannum counts this person as saved because they got him, they forced a confession from him in a testimony to God. And so he became a statistic and he became a recognized statistic in Texas.

They don't care that he went on and lived the opposite of the message. I've got articles somewhere. This guy was actually was a female at that point, passing out condoms in schools and on the streets.

This is not what you would consider to be saved in the message by no means. But William Brannum will still say that Leslie Douglas Ashley was saved. And worse, Charles- There are message churches in Texas.

Those churches are aware of this thing because this was, this was big, big news in Texas. Every one of the message leaders from Texas are aware of the person that William Brannon went to save.

They are aware that this person was not saved according to message standards, but they will still tell you that the prophet said that this person was saved. So for me, the real problem is this is not the way salvation works.

Again, I'm not going to say that Leslie Douglas, Ashley or Leslie Perez is condemned to hell. We don't know what happened on the deathbed, but this is not the way salvation works. You can't just say that somebody is saved because you pushed them into a corner and said, here, read this testimony, and therefore you can be counted as a statistic of our people that we have saved.

True Christian conversion involves a heart change. So John, as we wrap up this episode, like I said at the start, this is just a really unusual story. I think we can definitely categorize this story as a rich guy using his influence to get his step-son off death row and a bunch of religious leaders who are willing to morally compromise themselves for whatever reason in that process.

And for me, again, honestly, I think this would be a fairly minor footnote if it wasn't for the fact that all this stuff happened at the exact same time William Brannum was supposed to be having special meetings with angels.

And for the message, you know, that is a really big issue here. William Brannum was supposed to be out hunting why this is going on, standing underneath a miraculous manifestation of the face of Jesus in Arizona, being visited by seven angels, and the revelation of seven seals was in the process of being unfolded, right?

That's what the message teaches us was, William Brannum was up to the week of February 28th, 1963. But instead of that sacred and holy event, we find out William Brannum was actually in Texas, participating in a prayer vigil to help save the life of a homosexual prostitute who had been convicted of murder.

And that is just the first really big red flag that there is something very, very, very wrong with the stories that William Brannum told us about the opening of the seals in 1963. And so come back next week, we're gonna do a more detailed analysis of the timeline, and we're gonna walk through very solid evidence that will prove beyond a shadow that out William Brannum was not out hunting in Arizona on February 28th, 1963.

And believe it or not, as strange as this episode was, this is not even the weird stuff. We're about to get as we dive deeper. This is the strangest thing. If you... You are in a church and you are wondering about William Brandham's history and the cult of personality.

The next few episodes, we'll just blow your mind because you'll think how in the world are so many people worldwide believing this weird, this is like watching the ex-files. I mean, this is the weirdest thing ever.

And like you said, Charles, come back next week where we're going to blow your minds even further. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Brandham.org and Christian-CospelChurch.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Brandham and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Brandham and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Join us again next week. We've got a great episode coming. 24 August, 2020.