Marriage and Divorce

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org. And with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Charles Paisley, the founder of Christian Gospel Church.org.

And together, we're examining the history and the intersections in history between William Brannum and other key figures that either influenced or were influenced by the post-World War II healing revivals. Charles, I've been waiting for this episode for so long. As you know, I tend to avoid theology discussions. I leave that for you.

But this is one that you just can't not discuss. It is so weird and so out there. And I don't know if you remember the old black and white comedy movies, but they would always give them two titles for fun, a fact, like a big blast or never run with dynamite.

And I was thinking, how do we even name this one? I got to think, a marriage and divorce or never let the mentally unstable taste theology. That's really what this is. And you weren't there. You were in the Jackson Sack, but growing up in the Tabernacle Sack, we listened to these tapes over and over and over every two times on Sunday, on Wednesday evening, sometimes on Saturdays.

I mean, everybody joined together and they sat there and they fell asleep to this two-hour tape. And my grandfather would play this sermon, marriage and divorce every single year, sometimes two times a year. And right before, as he's introducing this thing that they're about to sit and listen to, he would tell these stories of dating that would just make you cringe.

And he was, you know, this was all part of the train your women to be in their place kind of sermon. And the guys and the girls would sit there eagerly and listen to how William Brannum could just hijack their minds and say stuff that I can't believe people sat through and listen to whenever he first breached it.

Yes, John, you know, we're getting closer and closer to the end of William Brannum's life in this podcast series. You know, we started at the beginning and we've been working. our way through and today we're taking a look at what is arguably the most controversial sermon that William Brannum ever preached. There's some doosies but this one I think most everyone would agree tops them all and William Brann preached this in February 1965 about 10 months before he died and the title the sermon was marriage and divorce and you're right John. We have spent a lot of

time looking at where the I would say some of the influences of his ideology came from when we have looked at five-fold ministry in the Malachi four prophecy and we've looked at manifested sons of God and you know a few things along that line serpent seed but generally we haven't looked too hard at the things that he taught and this will actually probably be the deepest dive into a single sermon he preached that we've ever done and it's probably for this reason it is the most infamous sermon and there's the level of importance that William

Brannum placed on this sermon. We last talked about we last talked about this sermon quite a bit in episode seven so way back at the beginning when we talked about a polygamy in the message with Naomi Wright she had grown up in a polygamous sect and if you want to go back and check out episode seven and put along with this one that it's a great one they go together and I also think before we get too far along in this episode we should say William Brannum made a lot of very explicit quotes in this sermon and so if you got some young kids you

probably want to turn them all you know turn this off if they're in the back seat because we're probably going to read some of these quotes from William Brannum that are not fit for young children to hear even though there were hundreds of young children including children in my family there when he preached this sermon it's it's so odd man in today's world we have these AI verification bots that when you publish something it'll go through and scan what you do and see is it safe to go on the internet can you put it on YouTube without being

blasted I have to be careful what I put out there because there are certain clips from this sermon that if I put out there I'll get blocked as though I'm putting out some evil hate speech and you know some very discriminatory statements and it's not me saying it it's it's William Brannum that says it but you're right this is the most controversial sermon and it is you know a lot of people don't realize it especially those who are in the message of William Brannum but in the end of his life he was very severely struggling with mental

health issues and this sermon in its entirety is a full and unbalanced and unchecked version of William Brannum in which he does introduce theology and you can correct me if I'm wrong I've studied this pretty heavily but in the sermons in years prior to this we can kind of find where nothing he brings as new he's copying from this guy, or that guy, this book, or that teacher, and he's copying from Billy Graham to Clarence Larkin.

There's just so much pleasureism. But when it gets to this sermon, there are things that he introduces into the logical record of the message that are truly his own, and there are a result of the mental health disorder, and the background situation of this sermon, which I think we've discussed briefly in prior episodes, made him very angry, and the anger combined with the mental health disorder left him fully unchecked.

And the result of this, Charles, I don't get my books out much, but a friend of mine sent me this book called Marriage and Divorce by David Mammalius. This is just one of many, many examples.

You can see how thick this is if you're in the video feed, but what happened was, William Brannum introduced theology on the subject of marriage and divorce, but the theme that the ministers after this tried to use is that this was a divorce and remarriage sermon, not a marriage and divorce sermon.

And so they realized that theology is just off the wall, and what they've tried to do after his death is try to make it sound okay by not taking the sermon and learning the theology from the sermon, but instead, let's take all the sermons and let's take bits and pieces and just little snips from the marriage and divorce sermon.

My grandfather said that we're so thankful that William Brannum brought us this message, marriage and divorce, or we would have never known about remarrying after divorce. He would say this every single time he played it.

But in this book, Charles, this is a, I mean, this is a huge book, there's almost 400 pages. And the marriage and divorce, I'm gonna hold it up for the camera for the video feed.

The marriage and divorce sermon is just this end section of this entire book. It's just this little thin slice. If you're in the audio feed, it's not even a quarter of an inch compared to about an inch and a quarter of the rest of the book.

And marriage and divorce is minimally quoted. In fact, when you open up the very first of the book, the very first quotes that it's using is from and visible union of the bride of Christ at the beginning of the book.

And then it's literally trying to reprieach what he preached for marriage and divorce and make it sound sane by not using marriage and divorce and then calling it William Brannum's teaching on marriage and divorce.

We did a very similar thing in my second John. You know, before we look at the sermon itself, we definitely should just say how important this is to the message and the importance that William Brannum himself put on that message.

Because William Brannum held this up as one of the most important sermons he ever preached. In William Brannem's eyes, this was one of the greatest sermons he ever preached. And David Mammalis there, for example, you held up his book.

He was a very important preacher in the message, especially in the early days of the message. He is the one who made the original index of the spoken word books, right? He was the first man to put together indexes and study guides on message material in that way.

So, you know, he is very foundational towards, you know, building towards this idea that William Brannem's teachings are some equivalent to scriptural canon, right? And so he's very fundamental in that way, but yeah, that book, you see, they, there are things like that where people have tried to take it and do a deep explanation on it, partly because of the level of importance that William Brannem said it was.

Let me read you a quote from William Brannem to this effect where he tells just how important the sermon on marriage and divorce was. This is from this 1965 sermon, The Easter Seal. He said, it shook the hills for miles and around like that.

There stood seven angels and throw to sword in your hand and said, go home and open these seven seals that are given. And here they are, the true mystery of marriage and divorce, the serpent sea and all of these things that's been fussed about.

It's thus sayeth the Lord, okay? So there you can see in that quote, just very plainly, it's one of many quotes we can pull that says the exact same thing. William Brannem consistently put marriage and divorce into the category of his most important sermons.

He does it on multiple occasions and make sure you notice there, William Brannem says there, it's thus sayeth the Lord. This is a thus sayeth the Lord's sermon. It's supposed to be spoken directly from the mouth of God.

And he's putting this in the same category as his divine prophetic interpretations, the pinnacles of the mysteries that he is revealing. Though, I mean, very clearly in William Brannem's eyes, there's no way around it.

Marriage and divorce is right up there in his top 10 most important sermons that he ever preached of prophetic revelation restored to the church. And that's why people have spent so much time digging into this, John.

And that's why in a sense that it's had the impact that it has had throughout the message. It's weird. It's so weird looking back now. It's so odd, man. And you know, I guess I should explain for people who are in the message, who are listening to the podcast.

Everybody who's never been in contact with this type of religion, I don't even have to say this. They already know it, but for people in the message, whenever you have something of disimportance and you create a study guide, it is this thick, man.

The way it works is, if the substance, if the sermon, marriage and divorce, it's... That's your substance, and that is the most important thing, if that's the divine mystery as they call it. The way it's going to work is you're going to have the sermon spread the whole length and duration of the book, and they're going to take paragraph by paragraph, analyze it, put commentary, and maybe tie the commentary back to some additional sermons, but that's not what happens in this.

They basically rewrite William Brannum sermons so that he sounds sane, and it's just so really odd when you think about it. It reminds me years ago, there were these Super Bowl commercials, I was at a friend's house, and they're watching the Super Bowl, and I think it's Budwizers or something, but the guy is sitting there, and he says, I like to watch ballet, and other guy says, I like to watch sumo wrestling, and this guy comes in with a Budwizer and slams it on the table and says, let's watch both, and you see this sumo ballet dancer on the screen.

It was incredibly funny, but when you really think about what they've done, that's what this is. They have taken the substance of marriage and divorce, and they combine it with every other sermon to make him sound sane, and what you end up is not what William Brannum said.

You end up with what the other guy is trying to convince you that William Brannum said. The majority of the message does not believe William Brannum's sermon on marriage and divorce. The majority of the people in the message and the majority of the church is pretend large parts of the sermon don't exist.

We certainly did in our sect, we believe that this sermon was won. We believe, you know, the sermon on the marriage and divorce, this was one of the sermons that William Brannum preached to deceive the non-elect is what we believe.

Yes, this was a fake sermon from William Brannum to confuse people is what my sect of the message believed. We did not believe in this. We believe this was trash, right? If you believe the Bible, you almost have to believe it's fate because it is the most anti-biblical sermon that he ever preached.

It's terrible as we get into the analysis, you'll see if you've never heard anybody. My sect of the message is the same thing. We built all entire new material and we pretend like it's, you know, we're taking parts and continuing on with some of what William Brannum said, but no, we are 100% different.

We did not. There's not a, I don't think there's a single thing he preached in this sermon that my sect of the message actually believed in. This was entirely in the fan as in his hand and here's some, here's some chaff, here's something to blow away chaff in this sermon, right?

In our sect, it was the whip is in his hand and you will name you stay in submission to your husbands. We, you know, it's just so weird and the thing is, he said it's the Lord though.

He said this is one of the greatest mysteries. He said over and over again, even in the sermon. So how can you, you know, how do you make turn of the thus say at the Lord into something you don't believe?

He said angels came and gave him the sermon in the sermon, basically. Um, and I feel bad, Charles, we're talking about theology and I'm going to warn everybody who's listening. I'm going to laugh uncontrollably through this episode. I can't help it. You know, this is a very serious matter. This is your soul going to heaven or going to hell. This is thus sayeth the Lord. This is, you have to either choose. William Brownham is actually speaking from God when he says these very, very anti-biblical horrific things, thus sayeth the Lord, or he's got a demon and the Lord is Satan. It's that big of a difference. So it's not funny.

But every time I read through this sermon or I discuss it or I think through what's in it, it is so uninsane. What he's saying that in my head, I get this mental image of Jack Nicholson when he loses his mind. You've seen those, those memes in the videos. It is crazy funny in that he is so mentally unstable. And he's got this whole audience of people who thinks that he is speaking thus sayeth the Lord, divine revelation from God. And they're not catching this guy on the platform is mentally unstable. And it's a great setup for a comedy movie. So in my mind,

I just kind of replace the very serious aspect of this, which is horrific with the comedy. I'll be honest, I can't help it. That's just the way my mind works.

So William Brownham said this entire sermon on marriage and divorce as thus sayeth the Lord. And we've already read one quote to that. In fact, there's moral read as we go along. But at the end of the sermon, he said several times very plainly, very plainly that the entire sermon was thus sayeth the Lord and that he got it from an angel. And he says the same in other quotes. And so with that in mind, let me just start off reading a little bit of what this, some of the things he said in here. And he starts off in the sermon. I think the first thing worth

pointing out is that he says that basically women are the worst thing that are in creation. Like they're the absolute bottom of the bottom of everything God created. And so he says now there's nothing designed and that can deceive and can be deceived as easy as a woman.

There's nothing designed or can stoop as low as a woman can. Think now, there's nothing designed in all creation that can stoop as low as a woman can. She can tear a man's heart to pieces easier than anything else in the world. It's his wife. Let that nice little wife get to running around with some other man. Look at that fellow sitting there with his children and tears dropping out of his eyes. She is designed that way. And she is designed to do this.

There is no hog, no dog, no other animal designed to stoop as low as she can. Now that is true. And so then after he says that, he goes on to explain that woman was designed by the devil.

himself. Even all women were designed by Satan. Let me, I'm here to quote to that effect says, now you may question me about Satan being her designer, but that's the truth. Satan designed her. He still does. Let me show you something in the scripture. I take you back to scripture and draw your opinion as you look at it today. Satan is the one who features that kind of beauty. If we'll notice he is the most beautiful of all the angels in heaven, right? And he desires to make heaven a more beautiful place in the kingdom of Michael. Is that right? Also,

to show that Cain was his son, he offered a more beautiful worship, decorated as alters with fruits and flowers and so forth. Is that right? Beautiful. Sin is beautiful, what we call beauty today. And sin is deceiving by beauty. You never look at a woman going down the street and tell what's in her heart see, but I wanted to say these things so you can say see why that Satan is her designer.

That's exactly right. His own son proved it Cain. Now she is beautiful so she can deceive. So, and I think that's another good example here where William Brownham went in quite a bit of depth. They're explaining how Satan designed women. And a lot of what he said, John, is just not fit to read out loud. And I, I just can't believe my family sat here through this. I mean, how can you sit in a sermon and the preachers telling you women were designed by the devil?

It's very difficult. Let me read one last quote here. William Brownham says on the same thing, he says, now you can probably well understand what I've been hitting at by her beauty and her sex control, her shape that was given to her by Satan. Let me say it is the man who shaped woman. The byproduct that Satan did, she is sent to deceive the sons of God and she can sway more of them to hell than any instrument Satan has got. That's exactly right.

It's unbelievable. You know, again, in the tabernacle and not just the brand of tabernacle, but many of the churches that I grew up in, they use the sermon and they, again, they twisted out of context. They try to take all of the other sermons and and turn this into something that it's not by just combining the old ones with the, the insane one. And they try to frame this in such a way that makes the listener to believe, leads them to believe that William Brownham was actually not talking about the good women. He was talking about the bad women.

In other words, whenever I say that Satan designed your wife and your wife might run around on you because she's designed to be that way, I think he called them sex exposals in this or dispose all of something like that.

Instead of saying the thing that he said, they try to frame it such that, no, he's talking about these other women who who aren't in the cult. Satan designed those women, not women in general, but that's not what the man said.

And if these men were being honest, when they produce books like this that are twisting every way possible to twist that sermon to make it sound sane, they would instead use quotes like in questions and answers number two, 1964.

William Brattam said, now whenever you want to, when you want a woman, you need to take her like a cow and look in her eyes and look at that wild cow stare. She's got that wild cow stare.

She's not a good wife. If they were to take that quote and put it in here, it might closely match what he's saying, but they've tried to frame it such that it was a number one, a sane sermon from a man who was not mentally unstable.

And number two, it was a sermon speaking out against non-cult women. And Charles, you know, I know, and everybody who's ever studied the sermon knows, that is not what the man said. And he said it as quote, thus saith the Lord.

You're exactly right, John. I mean, it is absolutely unmistakable in this sermon that he is saying that in the very beginning of creation, that God designed man in his image and Satan designed woman in his image.

I mean, that is very plainly the point that he's driving home. Man is in the image of God. Woman is in the image of Satan, right? That is, it's unmistakable, but that is his point here.

I've even heard cult people defend this and they say, well, that's true. The Satan, woman was a byproduct because that's, you know, that's what William Brandham taught in his high reading theology, but that's not what the Bible says.

They fully ignored Genesis 127. So God created man in his own image in the image of God. He created them male and female. How can you ignore that verse? Again, I'm not theologian, but I do know the Bible and the Bible says that God created both male and female in his image.

There is nothing in here about Satan designing the female. You know, that's it exactly, right? And I mean, if you say that Satan designed woman, then clearly you're saying she is not in the image of God.

Right? I mean, and you're spot on, John. Obviously, anybody can read that. Genesis 5, 2, right? God created them male and female, just like you read. And he blessed them and called them mankind on the day that they were created.

Genesis 5, 2, right? I mean, it's, there is no way to fit Satan designing women into the Genesis account of creation. You cannot do that, right? So obviously, William Brandham is preaching heresy contrary to the Bible and saying it's that Satan the Lord, the whole sermon.

But it gets worse. Okay, let me read another quote. Okay, so how was Satan able to pull this off, right? How could Satan design women? William Brannon went on to say in that sermon, how did Satan ever get to her?

Did you know Satan was co-equal with God? One day? Sure was. All but a creator. He was everything stood at the right hand of God in the heavens, the great leading shareable. Okay, so this is this is out there stuff. Okay, William Brannon said in the sermon that Satan was co-equal with God.

This is the Seth the Lord sermon. And just to point out, John, you mentioned some of this is unique in some sense. But things like that, that's from Joseph Smith, right? That's if those are Mormon ideas.

And the concept that Eve was created by malevolent forces, that's actually can be found in a Gnostic apocrypha, right? Which we know William Brannon had access to. So it is entirely possible. He got this idea out of the Gnostic apocrypha.

It's entirely possible. He had been influenced by Mormonism with this stuff as well. This is not in a sense. It's not really new. And I think I'll be honest. My honest assessment of the sermon is that William Brannon accidentally said these things. I don't think he meant to say.

Like when he said designer, I'm pretty sure he was misspeaking. I really, that would be my honest assessment as he was misspeaking when he said these things. But here's the thing. Can you thus say at the Lord, misspeak? No. God is not capable of misspeaking. Okay, it does not work.

You cannot say he was misspeaking. And it's thus say at the Lord, if he's misspeaking, then he's lying when he said thus say at the Lord. It don't work that way, right? I mean, it just don't work that way.

You know, my mind goes a different way. I've studied this as you know to know in. But there's this weird thing towards the end of William Brannon's ministry where it's so very closely aligned with Eastern mysticism.

And I know that there are certain pieces of this that he did copy from, you know, different American cults. But if you just take a step back and you think about what he's saying, William Brannon is affirming the statement that Satan designed them when he says Satan was co-equal with Jesus one day back in before time. That is an affirmation.

That means Satan created them and I from this because Satan was co-equal. And if you study Eastern mysticism, even just the ancient mythologies, you find that in the ancient mythologies, there's always this balance between good and evil where there is a divine evil entity and a divine deity.

And those two play tug of war. You've got Thor and Loki. You've got the Yen and the Yang. You've got, you know, it's a balance of good versus evil. And it makes for great movies, but not really good Christian religion or Christian theology.

But William... Adam tried to twist it into such a way where Satan had almost as much power as Jesus. He literally takes the Satan of the Bible, the Satan of Christianity, and he says, let's empower Satan.

Let's make him more powerful than the Bible says he is. And in doing so, Charles, this is where it gets really problematic for me. There is no way to look at that without realizing that William Brannum is actually worshipping Satan when he does this, because he is lifting Satan up into a place that Satan is not supposed to be.

Right. I mean, honestly, what can you do with that quote when he says Satan is co-equal with God? That's evil. That's evil stuff. That is evil stuff. And even worse, he's saying that this sermon, the whole thing, all the way through, is thus, say, the Lord.

But the Bible is very clear. Satan was a created being. And you has never been equal to God, never will be equal to God. You know, Ezekiel 28, 13 says that Lucifer was created, right?

And there is no excuse for William Brannum saying something like this, right? I mean, you can't claim that you're speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and then say, Satan was co-equal with God, right?

This is a very serious problem. I mean, this is a huge red flag that there is something seriously, seriously wrong here, right? And any other preacher said something like this, certainly anywhere I come from, we would immediately recognize him as a false teacher, right?

If we saw a preacher say, Satan is co-equal with God, we would immediately recognize this preacher is a false teacher. And I think most anyone in the message, the same thing, if they heard a preacher say that they would recognize, this is a false teacher.

But somehow, William Brannum gets a pass for teaching this. He gets a, you know, he gets a, get out of jail free card here. Yeah. And I've seen that to be the case there, because William Brannum taught both sides of almost every issue.

I've been to churches where they teach the one side, and they try to convince their following that the other side doesn't exist. Well, when they have a guest minister come to speak, and that guest minister is more familiar with the thing that they don't believe that William Brannum also taught, thus the Lord.

Well, when he says it, they oust him. They say, this guy's got a demon, and he's just repeating what William Brannum said. But they ostracize you if you say what William Brannum said that doesn't believe with your version of what William Brannum said, which is the other thing he said.

And in the end, Charles, again, I go back to the Jack Nicholson image in my head. It's just so kooky. It's, this is the one flew over the kooky's nest sermon. So according to William Brannum, Satan, who was co-equal with God, designed women, and women were designed for the purpose of deceiving man, man-waring gods.

image, but women were designed by Satan, okay? So this is the core of William Brannum's thesis here in this sermon. Let me read you another quote, and this is a quote I read, John, you mentioned that this makes me cringe, okay?

Because my mother was sitting there as a child, other members of my family was sitting there as children hearing these things. Just about every single old timer in the message I knew was sitting here when William Brannum preached.

And said these things, okay? All the little children, all the young girls, just sitting there listening to William Brannum say these really explicit things, these very lengthy explanations of explicit things. And let me just read a small excerpt here of one part, William Brannum says, that's what she was made for.

A in-moral woman is the lowest thing that can be thought of in the earth. Excuse this, young ladies. So, you know, this is kind of like, excuse this, I'm gonna say the most terrible thing that's ever entered your ears, no kidding.

I mean, give me a break. I mean, that's don't make it okay. Excuse me, young ladies. She's nothing but a human garbage can, a sex exposure. That's all she is. An in-moral woman is a human sexual garbage can.

A pollution where filthy, dirty, ornry, low-down filth is disposed by her. What is she made for? For deception. And every sin that was ever caught on the earth was caused by woman. So, I think our listeners here can start to figure out why this is one of the most controversial sermons William Brannum ever preached, right?

And he kept this off by saying that all the sin that has ever been in the world is caused by women. Women. So, again, I mean, just remember this entire sermon is supposed to be thus, say, at the Lord, yet Romans 512, and the main teacher, real preaching of the Bible, is the sin came into the world by man, Adam.

I mean, that's a direct quote. Sin entered the world by one man, Adam. So, William Brannum's telling us though that sin came into the world and all sin came because of women, right? So, again, he's flat out saying the opposite of the Bible in these quotes and telling his listeners, it's thus, say, at the Lord.

You know, I have a very analytical mind. I like to study how things work. When I was a kid and I would get a radio for Christmas, I would always take it apart and see what's inside of it, what makes this thing work.

And whenever I took a step back after leaving the cult and started thinking about this sermon because it is the most controversial, the most heretical, you can't say enough bad things about this sermon, that is thus, say, at the Lord.

Well, I began to think about just the themes. What are the themes in this sermon? What is the message that he's trying to convey? And if you break the sermon down and you put it into categories of themes, the sermon is titled Marriage and Divorce.

And the ministers of the cult, by and large, try to make the theme of it divorce and re-marriage. That's the theme that they try to say that this is. But if you put them in categories, William Brannum will start towards the divorce and re-marriage theme, but his mental health doesn't let him get there.

And he'll flip back and attack the women. Then he'll try it again and he comes back and he is just be raiding the women in the sermon. And to the extent, if you line it up in categories, here's where he's attacking women, here's where he's trying or attempting to preach the re-marriage thing, it's like 80, maybe 85% attack of the female gender.

There's very little substance about the actual thing that the sermon is titled after. And again, if you take these books, if they were to be fully honest and they were to say, okay, we're going to take thus say if the Lord message of marriage and divorce and we're going to back it up by all the other things in the message, why don't they pull quotes like 1956?

William Brannum said, you'd find out how illiterate they were. They'd beater till she was so full of wealth you could not get the clothes over the top of them. That's what needs done tonight.

William Brannum did have statements all through his ministry, dating back as far back as you want to go, where he's fully attacking and be raiding women. And that, Charles, that's 80% to 85% of the sermon.

Why doesn't this book take the be raiding women quotes, which is the subject matter of that sermon and compile those in these books? Right, and I would agree with your analysis, the main thrust and the main bulk of this sermon is to demonstrate that women are not in the image of God.

They were designed by Satan for the purpose of deceiving man. And that is the main point here. I mean, that is what he spends the most time on. And that's the overwhelming majority of what this sermon is about.

Example after example, proof after proof, suppose that women were designed by Satan, who was co-equal with God, to deceive men who were made in the image of God, and drag men to hell. I mean, there's just no way around it.

That is the point of the sermon. It's something else, and through it all, like I said, thus saith the Lord yet he has said Satan is co-equal with God. That's anti-biblical. Women is designed by Satan.

That's anti-biblical. And in the last quote, he's saying that women... then are what brought sin into the world, which is also anti-biblical. I mean, a direct contravention of what the Bible says, Bible says, man brought sin into the world. So it's very difficult to understand how you could thus say, the Lord say these sort of thing, because you can't. God's not going to contradict himself, right? And you think that really terrible explicit stuff he's saying there, right? I mean, I'm not going to repeat it again. That's the end all I'm going to say about it. But if your kid went to school and they were learning

that in sex education in school, I mean, you would have a problem with that teacher, wouldn't I mean, if you was in the message and you sent your kid to school and they was talking that kind of sexual stuff to your kids, the average message person would pitch a fit, wouldn't they? But here, William Brownham can get in the platform and say this absolutely, I mean, despicable stuff. What kind of a sick, filthy mind does this man have to say some of this stuff that he says? I mean, this is a, William Brownham has a perverted mind. I hate to say it.

This is not a decent mind. This is the mind of a sex pervert that says these things that William Brownham is saying here. I think that this sermon is a good indication that William Brownham is some sort of a sex pervert, honestly. And I'll just say these are not things that come out of a mind of a man or a woman with a healthy mind when it relates to these things.

This is someone who has been involved in some degree of sexual perversion to say this kind of stuff. And I know people will probably hate me for saying that, John. But this is, if anybody else said this, we would, in the message, all agree this person is a sex pervert. So, I mean, William Brownham is a, is some sort of a pervert here saying this sort of stuff. Two children, two children for God's sake. Yeah. And I know that you're not going to say it. So I'm going to go ahead and say it and back you up towards the end of the sermon. He actually stands up and

he, he says, I know that we're in a mixed crowd, meaning I know that there are women present in this building. He says, so I'm going to stop here. But I'll get some men and we'll go talk more about it. He said, I got the papers and things laying right there at my hand. And I was going to bring it to you this morning. I was going to take the full day in this. And he says, I've got papers there. And I'm going to get some men and we're going to go talk about it. So he's talking about

papers of sex. And again, to back you up to affirm what you've said, the statement that he made immediately prior to that, he said in that sex act that Eve did, that same sin works around the woman. And that's where she gets her wall-eyed conditions and things, sensations far beyond what any man could ever do. He's, he's literally talking about orgasms and sex and the way that women's faces change while they're having sex. Charles, if you were to go visit a church, just pick any denomination in the nation and go preach a sermon. And at the end of it, say,

I've got some pornography here, and did you know that women's faces change whenever you're having sex with them? What would they do, man? Would they run you out of their church or what? God have mercy, John.

God have mercy. And here's the sick thing is, when the sermon was over, he did have that meeting with the man. Yes. Raymond Jackson was there. I mean, I know that he went on and had that meeting.

That A, I mean, you got to be kidding me. You got to be kidding me. But no, he did. He really did have this meeting with the man afterwards, and I mean, I've heard testimony of what went on in that meeting.

I think we talked a little bit about that in episode seven. I mean, come on. You've got to be kidding me, right? And you know, what's so terrible about this ideology, John, which you mentioned is that as William Brown was preaching all of this stuff, it has been used to justify all manner of abuse, right?

And I really believe a number of people coming into the message back then, because I mean, I got to think who in the world would sit through this sermon and not run screaming out of the building?

I know. Right? I mean, this is what I think. I mean, I'll, and here's the thing. All you message old timers that know me, I know you are sitting here. When William Brown and preach this thing, and I want to say to you, what in the world is wrong with you?

You don't have no moral high ground. You, you listen to filth and trash, don't you talk down to me? I mean, I could really get in your face on this stuff, John. I mean, this really makes me angry, some of this stuff, but I tone it back down.

But anyway, what's so terrible here is all the abuse that's happened in the name of this stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's unbelievable. If this were a true study guide, Charles, it would have those papers and things that he shared with the men, because that's part of the study guide.

That's what William Brown said, does say at the Lord, and he was intending to bring these pornography papers or whatever they were and show them to the men, does say at the Lord, Charles.

So why is, does say at the Lord of the papers and things of how women's faces distort with an orgasm? Why is it not in this book? I, you know, you can go cover to cover.

You're welcome to look at it with me. That's not mentioned in this book, and that's, does say at the Lord. I have to wonder, did, and how many of these old timers sat there and stayed in this stuff because they liked what they heard.

They liked the control they were being given over their wives. They liked to hear that their wife was somehow inferior, and they, how many of them stayed in there because they liked what they heard.

Right. I mean, if you liked the things you heard in this sermon, I got to say, there's something seriously wrong with you. You are a deviant yourself, right? If you liked the things you hear in this sermon, and maybe there's a percentage of the people sitting there when he's preaching this old timers in the message or deviance themselves and I got to say, John, I really do believe that's true, having known a fair number of message old timers.

I hate to say it. A percentage of them were deviance themselves. These were men who were abusing their wives. physically. These were men who were involved in deviancy of different ways. They liked what they were hearing. They liked how this empowered them and they liked what this allowed them to do because this fitted the kind of life they wanted to live. I hate to say. They used it to justify their abuse and their corruption and wickedness. And remember William Brannum's ministry started from the very, very early inception from a sexual deviant. Roy Davis came into town

running from the law for underage for sex with an underage girl across state lines, which is a violation of the Man Act. He's with William Brannum and Jeffersonville, Indiana. He gets arrested off the platform and it's a it's a big big church scandal. Probably the biggest church scandal I've ever heard of. And William Brannum stays with him. I can guarantee you that this is the type of sermon that that's perverted sexual mind of Roy Davis. I'm certain that that's the same kind of sermon that William Brannum would have heard under him. But then the papers and things

that was a learned thing. That was not something new. William Brannum had to have learned this from Davis. And look at the pattern that we have. Like you said, all of these men who are doing just horrific things. And in the name of God, they're doing this. Like you said, this is a thus say at the Lord. That means it is not me, William Brannum speaking. It is God speaking through me to talk about these horrific things. Oh, John, on this topic, a spousal abuse.

There is one really weird story that William Brannum told. I think we chatted about this a couple weeks ago and you know, like, oh my goodness. And this story gives some insight that William Brannum was actually abusive towards his own wife. And if you want to read the whole story, you can find it in his 1963 sermon. Look away to Jesus. And in that sermon, William Brannum tells a story where one of his children was misbehaving. And his wife, me to Brannum, asked him to discipline the child. Then William Brannum refused to discipline the child. And then when he refused to help

purr with the misbehaving child, his wife talked back to him, went in the house, slammed the door and locked herself in the bedroom. Okay, this is the story that William Brannum told. And then William Brannum goes on to say that his wife was then cursed with cancer for talking back to him and locking herself in another room. Okay, let me just read the quote to it. He says, well, when I went, when I seen that, I run in and she was in the other room, I knocked on the door, she'd set herself up. I told her, I want to speak to her. I went in there and I talked to her.

I tried to tell her what it was. I said, sweetheart, you know, I love you, but God didn't like that. You oughtn't have said that. Immediately after that, she took a trouble in her side. We took her over the door.

after here in Louisville, Dr. Arthur Shone, and he found a tumor on the left ovary, okay? So about the size of a walnut, he goes on to say, so basically their story is incredible, isn't it?

I mean, can you imagine, okay, his wife has got sick, she's been diagnosed with cancer, and William Brownum is telling her, you got cancer because you talked back to me. You got cancer because you slammed the door, right?

I mean, this is, that's pretty wicked behavior out of William Brownum there, right? He's just playing mind games with her, right? And I think that most, any reasonable person you're outside of a cult and you hear somebody's treating his wife that way, you'd say that is abusive behavior, right?

Oh, yeah. And even worse, okay, even worse, okay? So you want to say that's maybe not abusive, well, look at the next level he goes to. He's telling the story in a sermon of the whole congregation, okay?

Imagine how humiliated his wife is sitting there as he tells his entire universe of followers that God has cursed his wife for talking back to him, okay? Just imagine how humiliated she is sitting there, okay?

And just take off the message glasses and look at these things that William Brownum was saying in doing, this is a very wicked way for him to treat anyone, let alone his wife, right?

And this says something really bad about William Brownum's character, that he would publicly humiliate his wife this way. And I think it tells us everything we need to know about how he viewed his wife and his own relationship.

At a minimum, it is a full admission of emotional abuse of his spouse, which is, in many minds, in many eyes, it's grounds for divorce. If you're emotionally abusing your spouse, you know, a woman should not stay subjected to this.

They're going to go through marriage counseling and if the guy doesn't change and he continues to emotionally abuse his spouse, their counselors that would recommend that the woman escape this horrific situation that she's in.

So we're talking about a sermon of marriage and divorce while he's emotionally abusing her. But there's something in there that she said, she went and she locked the door. Women don't usually lock the door and hide from their husbands for emotional abuse.

They usually do for physical abuse. And this is a man who, I just read the quote earlier, this is a man who is saying that you should take the clothes off of the women and beat them until the flesh is mutilated so badly that they can't even pull the clothes back over them.

In other words, their skin is so swollen from you beating it and mutulating the flesh. That's a man who is preaching these kind of things to children in his cult. I mean, it's mind boggling.

That's a man who is saying these things who's surrounded with many, many homosexual men in his camp who's surrounded by many men who have sexually abused or molested underage girls whose ministry was started from a man who molested underage girls. That's the kind of person who Mita Brannum was hiding from.

It's very sad. I know people have asked us to look into Mita. Everything I've ever heard about Sister Brannum was very positive and good. I've heard she was a bit of a nervous woman whose nerves were pretty frayed and you don't get that way by living in a happy pleasant environment, right? Your nerves get frayed by living in an environment that is very high pressure.

Something else, something else, that story. That's one that that's one that just takes my breath away, that he, it's bad enough that he thought God would give him his wife cancer for talking back to him. But then for him to get in the platform and put that in print, to even this day, people are repeating, God gave William Brannum's wife cancer because she backed him and you'll hear message preachers actually talk about this in their sermons, right? That's actually the first time I've ever heard about. It was message preacher using this as an example in their sermon of, you know, what happens to women who don't obey their

husbands? God gives them cancer. Yeah. And you know, William Brannum was credited by his cult of personality as being the Elijah of this day, the man who's setting the example in that, that commission or those commissions, I should say, he had several different commissions varying and conflicting, but they started as early as the 19 was the earliest one, 19 20s, I believe, is the earliest that he said, but he's supposed to be commissioned to bring a message to the people.

And this, this thing marriage and divorce, all you have to do is read what the Bible says about divorce and remarriage, which is the theme that the ministers try to change this into. And they say that William Brannum brought this divine thing and we, my grandfather said over and over, we would never have known about divorce and remarriage had William Brannum not preached it.

And yet the same man, you know, my grandfather was there for, for, you know, visiting with the Brannum family. He had to have known some of these things. William Brannum in private helped his brothers, remarry over and over and over and over again. I've got the, I was at the courthouse. I've got the, you know, the divorce papers and the remarriage papers. These guys, William Brannum's brothers traded women around like cattle. They really did. And apparently they didn't look at their eyes and see that they have the wild cow stare before they traded for another one.

Well, William Brannum is performing the ceremonies to remarry these guys. And, Some of them, if you look at the court documents, it strongly suggests that they were physically abusive to their wives. So here's a guy whose own wife is hiding behind a door, a locked door to keep him out.

While he's helping his brothers remarry some of them who are physically abusive, and in normal Christianity, Charles, whenever a minister sees this thing going on, here's a man who's going to get a new wife and start beating her.

He's not going to condone the second marriage or the third or the fourth. I have no idea how many times William Brannum did this. I could only find a limited number because you had to scan through thousands of pages, tens of thousands of pages.

But this was going on, and William Brannum was doing this. So in private, he has a message for himself that if you're in the end crowd, I'll help you divorce and remarry as many times as you want.

But then to the public, it's just a berating of women, and then he's telling the men that up and to this time, he says that you cannot remarry ever, thus saith the Lord. Then Charles, you know this as well as I do, in this sermon, he changes it, and that's the mystery.

He says he can, but she can't. It's something else, John. It really is. And you know, so in this sermon, we got William Brannum saying, Satan is colloquial with God. He designed women and women are sent to deceive men and be human sexual garbage cans.

And so this is his main thrust, and you think, can it get worse? Yes, it can get worse. It gets worse. It gets worse. As the sermon progresses, OK, William Brannum ends up accidentally introducing polygamy, OK?

We recovered that in episode seven, right? And again, I, I am personally of the opinion that William Brannum accidentally said a lot of these things. I, I really think, I honestly, my honest opinion here is that William Brannum was mispeaking and just choosing the incorrect words here, and that's my opinion for some of this.

Some of this, no, I mean, he's absolutely just off his record. Some of, I, I think he's just misusing his words and using bad analogies, but he brings in polygamy in this sermon, and he's using polygamy basically as proof that a man could remarry after divorce because in God's eyes, yeah, a man could have multiple wives.

So we said, and so he's got, so he's using polygamy as this really bizarre explanation to justify a man getting remarried after a divorce, right? But as he does this really bizarre thing, you know, rather than just go read the scripture that says, yeah, get remarried, right?

I mean, instead of just go read... scriptures so you know about that he's using polygamy as his example right and just let me read what he says because as he does this he accidentally then brings polygamy in he says now there is a true woman a true woman of virgin that marries her husband and lives and she is a blessed thing to the man if god could give his son any better thing than a wife he would have give that to him but she's designed to be a sex act and no other animal is designed like that

right so this is even the good woman right that's married to her husband I mean he's very plain right that she's designed by Satan for the she's designed to be a sex act no other animal is designed like that no other creature on earth is designed like that that's the reason you see polygamy because of that that's what brought it in okay so that's his logic here's that polygamy became acceptable and let me read one more quote he says then when the double covenant was made by man and woman through sex another covenant all together not the original covenant but another

covenant now what's introduced polygamy in all then after the beginning polygamy was introduced both in man and in beast after the beginning the fall god now secondarily sets a new nature again by sex god created the first without sex do you believe that now it's another covenant with nature he sets it in another order by sex second covenant one male many females one buck deer a whole harem of does is that right one bull a whole herd of cattle cows one rooster a yard full of hands is that right one David after his own heart with five hundred wives and children born into him in

one year of different women uh huh a man after god's own heart one Solomon with a thousand wives but notice now it wasn't so at the beginning but now it's after the beginning okay so can I I really think this is accidentally introducing polygamy he's really trying to justify remarriage after divorce but there's just no way to read this he is full out endorsing polygamy in here and he's saying the sermon is thus say at the Lord one of the greatest mysteries right so he is thus he's in his thus say at the Lord sermon he's accidentally preaching

polygamy right this sermon is a dumpster fire John yet William Brown says it's thus say at the Lord it just again every time I think about this sermon that image of Jack Nicholson and one flew over the cookies nest comes in my head you know he uses these off the wall examples in the sermon that can only be connected by an insane person I mean who does this who introduces polygamy to try to support and we'll get into who it was but to try to support some man who wants to marry a new wife and everybody's condemning him for it

Who introduced this polygamy to support this? Why not just use a, you know, Bible scripture or something? But he does this and every example one of the funniest scenes of internal conflicts that I had leaving the message. I Have heard this sermon preached and twisted out of its original context to mean something else by every single church I've been to in this called every one of them. They all preach it and they all like this book. They take Quotes from other sermons and try to make it sound sane Charles the quote of no other animal can stoop that low. No other animal always like this. I

Will never forget, man My my mother and father that they're kill me when they hear this, but I'm gonna say it anyway My mother and father had this dog a little poodle that when a visitor came over that dog really liked to go at it on their leg The dog would just hug it and make love to their leg every new person that came over and I'll never forget my grandmother coming over and She looked down and I don't think she realized what the dog was doing and she's like, oh look the dog likes me and

Years later after coming out of this and I heard that quote. I got to think about that dog His analogy is not even correct. He says no other animal like he's essentially saying that a human is the only animal that likes and enjoys sex. Well, look at the dogs look at the hogs every animal who has the internal Makeup to reproduce and repopulate the world has the same thing and If you're in the cult your mind is manipulated to believe that the women are out to get you because As a human you have the sting that the animals don't have I

I'll never forget that realization. It's like wait a minute every animal has this thing It's it's crazy, John. It is just it's just something else and when you when you put all this in context with

The homosexual episodes that we've done It just paints a really disturbing picture. I got to say his paints are really disturbing picture So there are lots of people who took this sermon on marriage and divorce and They have not only used it to justify all manner of spousal abuse, but they've used it to justify polygamy, too, right?

There are a number of message polygamous sex. I think Sydney Jackson is probably the Most famous person in the message history who was a practicing polygamous, right? And message people brag him up Cindy Jackson was a polygamous for goodness sakes, right?

Don't brag him up. What what is wrong with you people? Okay, Cindy Jackson was a polygamous. Okay, that man was from South Africa He teamed up with William Brownham in the 50s. I think he was already polygamous before he started working with William Brownham is is my My thoughts although I'm not perfectly sure that he was and quite a few people were recruited to live in polygamy after the marriage and divorce sermon was preached. I know for a fact Sydney Jackson preached preach polygamy right and he there's a number of other South Africans who were converted

into polygamy because of Sydney Jackson and it's safe to say there's at least a dozen polygamous groups here in the United States there's more in Canada there's more in South America but the largest percentage are in Africa where polygamy was already being practiced by a lot of the tribal people before they converted to Christianity and so the message offers those people a path to be you know Christian and still practice polygamy so the message appeals to them you know when it's preached in that polygamy way and as far as I know there is just a very sizable

percentage of African people are practicing polygamy in the message I think one very famous group the most recent probably one that was in the news a lot was Robert Martin Gumbura right he had over a hundred concobines in his group he's hardly the only one I mean while Keem Silvis was probably another another one who's very well-known he's from South America probably the most prominent message preacher in Brazil I mean he had a whole heroine of women from from according to the news reports I've also heard Ewald Frank he at the very least is tolerant of polygamy there is fairly widespread

polygamy on one Ewald Frank's followers in Africa and as far as I know again that's the second largest sect of message followers in the world today but all of this polygamy in the message across all kinds of sex has its roots back in William Brownham's 1965 marriage and divorce sermon where he accidentally thus say the Lord introduced polygamy and you know who this is as well as I do but Gerald Walker mentioned this in his intent to sue for I've mentioned it in the Sarah Brownham investigation videos there were men working inside of spoken word and even before it

was spoken word whatever it was called before that were having relations with several women overseas when William Brownham were going these trips and everyone knew it my grandfather knew this everybody in the message who is of rank knew that this was going on earned backster what did leave they'll say he said when when they went into India the the priest would come and say is it lawful for this man to have our women this stuff was going on and it was widespread and these men cover it up and part of me wonders if that's not why they put these kind of things out these books

that that try to twist this into something else because if you take the substance of this sermon entitled the marriage and divorce and you take it or it's full meaning, which is women are your sex objects.

That's literally the substance of the sermon. It is enabling, empowering every deviant mind to do whatever they will with the women because one male buck, all of the dose, I mean, that's what this is saying.

I've heard private conversations from men who were with William Brannum and they, I mean, the instructions that William Brannum gave on sex, I won't even implicate the men or say who it was, but his views weren't Christian views.

His views in private, I'll say it like this, his views in private supported the substance of this sermon. And so all of these men who are speaking to William Brannum in private know exactly what he was talking about.

No matter how hard you try to twist this into something that it isn't, they knew, A. William Brannum believed it and preached it. B, he was supporting all of it in private and C, it was thus saith the Lord.

Let me read one last quote here from the very end of his sermon. I think this is like the second or third to last sentence in the sermon. He says, I have told you the truth, thus saith the Lord all the way through, okay?

At the end of the sermon, he says, I have told you the truth, thus saith the Lord all the way through. And if you back up, oh, about three or four paragraphs before this, he explains how he had been up in a mountain and he'd had a supernatural experience with God, which had given him this sermon and authorized him to preach it, right?

So he is saying this is this, the fact that Satan was co-equal with God, that Satan designed women, that women came into the world to deceive men and that men can remarry

as many times as they want after divorce, but a woman can never remarry and that the accidental endorsement of polygamy is all thus saith the Lord. That is what he is saying in this sermon.

And I just gotta say, it's unmistakable. There is no way around it that he says this sermon all the way through was thus saith the Lord. He's making his marriage and sermon divorce the equivalent to prophecy.

This is supposed to be God speaking from heaven, to William Brantum. And if that be the case, then God from heaven said, Satan is co-equal with him and Satan designed women and God's also endorsing polygamy.

And there is no progressive revelation, there is no fan is in his hand, there's no, oh, he's just a man way out of this one, okay? He said it's all thus saith the Lord.

He said it was thus saith the Lord. He's saying the exact opposite of Rutt's road in the Bible repeatedly. And then he's telling his listeners, it's thus saith the Lord. And you know, you don't gotta go round and round with people.

about the red horse rider and the seventh trumpet and the three woes and the angel with the rainbow over his head, all that's you don't got to go around and round with people on all that stuff.

William Brannum falls down right here on the sermon in marriage and divorce. You want one simple sermon to look at that proves he was a false prophet and a false teacher. The sermon on marriage and divorce desert right here, this whole sermon is supposed to be thus said the Lord. You can find anything in the sermon that's wrong. He's a false teacher and he's a false prophet, right? And the thing is this sermon and to end is not inspired of God. This is this is unbiblical trash this sermon I got to say. And we believe that in my sect of the message. I'm not saying anything I didn't

believe where I came from. So Charles at the beginning of this, I mentioned that there were two reasons why this sermon is such a mess. The biggest one of which obviously is that there were some severe mental health issues going on. But there was another situation that was happening in the church that really was the spark of the need for this sermon. And I think not many people in William Brannum's cult of personality are aware of this. And for certain many of the historians who've studied William Brannum have no idea that this was a thing. But there was a reason why marriage

and divorce was necessary for William Brannum to preach. And that need to cover up the scandal combined with the mental health resulted in the explosion that we're talking about in this episode. Right, John. And back in episode seven we talked about some of this in detail. If you want to if you want to check back there to get probably more than we'll mention right here. But in short summary, one of William Brannum's sons had been divorced and was going to remarry. And this presented a problem because at that point the teaching of the message and most of the other

later reign groups was divorce is not allowed and remarry is certainly not allowed. So the purpose of the sermon was to open up a clear loophole for someone to remarry after divorce. And you're correct. That's what instigated this sermon. Yeah. And you know, ironically it was a son.

And so William Brannum says during the course of the sermon, he can, but she can. In other words, if you're a male and you're in our cult of personality, you're free to remarry people. But if you're a female, you're not allowed to. Charles, I sometimes wonder what would happen if it was not the son. But what if William Brannum had a daughter and she can, but he can't.

It's very unusual, John. It's very unusual. And you know, as we mentioned before, you and I have both known multiple witnesses who were in the private meetings that happened after this sermon. And I know I've heard through multiple them as you've heard as well.

That very plainly, it was explained in that meeting that the sermon had been preached for this purpose. And so all of the accidental things that happened in the sermon appear to really, I think, perhaps were true genuine accidents.

And the true purpose of the sermon was to justify one particular person's desire to re-marry after divorce. There's one statement that he said that I truly believe that he was being honest and being accurate.

And that's when he said, let's say at the Lord, we just mentioned in the sermon in the episodes prior to this, William Brannum, by his own admission, he admitted that he had a demon.

He said it right on the tape. He said that he had a demon. And he went to Mayo Brothers and they told him, it's an incurable disease in your mind that you have. You are mentally unstable. And he preaches the sermon and introduces this theology.

And he says, I got it from the Lord. But the problem Charles is, which Lord? I mean, you have to step back and ask yourself, what God is it that he was serving? Was it the demon that he fully admitted that he had?

Because Charles, the substance of this sermon, I know it, you know it. Everyone who writes these books, who studies these things, every person who has ever cracked open the cover of their Bible, knows that this was not a sermon from God.

There is no way in which you can twist this in any way, shape, or form to say that the true God gave the sermon, unless you do like these men do, and they pick and choose other statements and make the sermon say what it doesn't.

But there's the problem, right? Because it was, thus say, the Lord. It was William Brownham saying, I'm not speaking, the Lord is speaking, which Lord? One last thing I want to point out, like I mentioned before, my sect of the message never believed William Brownham's sermon on marriage and divorce.

You know, and I suspect very few people in my sect of the message have even listened to this sermon before, right? And because again, we totally rejected everything in here is something that William Brownham preached to something to confuse the non-elect, and Raymond Jackson publicly repudiated the marriage and divorce sermon several times.

I mean, you have to. I mean, unless you want polygamy and deviancy, you've got to reject what's in the sermon, right? Otherwise, you get deviancy and polygamy and all those sorts of things. And I suspect quite a few of the other sects of the message are the same way.

I suspect that a majority of people in the message do not believe what William Brownham said in the sermon. They reject his polygamy teachings, they reject his remarriage. teachings. They reject the idea that women was designed by Satan. They reject the idea that Satan was co-equal with God. I think the average message Christian rejects all of those things.

They reject all of that, but yet somehow, they do that by pretending they didn't notice that he said this whole sermon is thus, say, at the Lord. Okay? Because how can you reject this sermon and say, this is garbage without also saying William Brownham is a false prophet and a false teacher?

You can't do it. If you don't believe what he said in here, then you are admitting, if you don't even say it out loud, that William Brownham is a false prophet and a false teacher.

He gave false thus, say, at the Lord's, and you don't believe he taught things that are false. If you reject this sermon, it's something else. For me, it's just an honest thing, is how can you make sense of that? If you can just focus on that like a laser for a minute, I reject this sermon, this thus, say, at the Lord's sermon, but I still believe he's a prophet.

You gotta realize that does not make any sense. That does not make any sense. Something is wrong upstairs in your mind. When you tell people that their beliefs are wrong, or you say their prophets are wrong, it's like telling a lady her babies ugly, right?

What you get is not, it don't matter if the babies ugly or not, right? It don't matter if you're telling the truth that they get an emotional reaction, and I'm not saying, don't go tell some lady her babies ugly. That's not nice.

But if you told a lady that her babies ugly, it don't matter if that baby's ugly or not, she's gonna have a emotional reaction to you, and it's the same thing when you point some of the stuff out that we talked about in this episode and a lot of our episodes.

People just get an emotional response to it, and there's no actual processing of the things that you say. But if you can just calm yourself down, and just think about this logically, right? I mean, it's really simple. Do you believe Satan is co-equal with God? Because William Bramson does say the Lord he is. And if you don't believe that you have a mental logical fallacy in your mind, right? Where you are saying this man is a prophet, yet you don't believe his prophecy is from God.

It's a conflict in your mind, and you just got to find a way to follow that logic path down to the true root meaning of it all, which will ultimately lead you to the conclusion that William Bramson was not who he claimed that he was. Yeah. You know, in many ways, your sect was,

I hate to use this phrase, but in this one particular instance it fits, and your sect, it was deceptive. I know they were using deception, whatever he said, it's the fan in the hand, but it was less deceptive because in my sect, they advertised this as divine truth, as the hidden mysteries, as thus saith the Lord in its entirety. But then what happened is, after the sermon was played or they would give it to you and you'd listen to it, they would preach a sermon, talking about it, in which they would support things that this sermon did not say. In other words, they did not believe this

sermon at all. None of them did. They would preach from other sermons and try to affirm,

they can't even affirm it. There's nothing good in this sermon. There is not a single thing in the sermon that's of value, but they would pick and choose from these other sermons and then call it their sermon on marriage and divorce. In doing so, they're saying things that is in full disagreement with this sermon. They were doing the same thing as your sect were, but they were doing it in a very deceptive way because people thought, oh, marriage and divorce is good because I heard this sermon, which is nothing to do with marriage and divorce. The problem is, this was

the sermon that, as we've mentioned, was the result of mental insanity. This is William Brannum, who has just been released and they've told him, you cannot be cured. The things that are going on in your head are bad. We can't fix you. And he goes and introduces this theology, which results in polygamy. It was an insane sermon. This was the result of insanity. But then take a step back every single minister. They have one job, Charles, one job to study the message. That's all they do.

They get paid massive amounts of money to study this. They know this. So the question is raised, are they mentally insane or are they being deceptive? It can only be one of those two.

Very sadly, I think you have a mixture. People fall into different ones, depending on who it is.

John, as we bring this to a close, I'll just say, if every copy of this sermon that exists in the world could be burned and destroyed and erased from the face of the earth and history, the world would be a better place. That's not certainly within our power to do, and that will never happen.

But this is something that William Brannum preached that made the world a worse place. This sermon made the world a worse place, and William Brannum is responsible for that. The world was made worse.

Nothing good, only bad came from a result of this sermon. That's the truth. There is no way around that. That is the truth, right? And if you're in the message, that's another thing. Just wrap your mind around that. Only bad things happened as a result of this sermon. There is not a good thing that came out of it, right? This is not something that edified the body of Christ in any way. This is something that did harm and destruction everywhere that it went. To this day, it does the same, right? And William Brannum is responsible for that. And he's responsible for

telling us this thing was thus say at the Lord, right? William Brannum is accountable for the things that he did, right? And there is no fan as in his hand, excuse. There is no, he was just a man, excuse. There is no progressive revelation, excuse. This is wicked. William Brannum did something wicked, right? And that makes him a bad person. I mean, there's no way around. It's just like in publicly humiliating his wife. He did a bad thing. This makes him a bad person, right?

Does that mean he went to hell? I mean, that's between him and God, but I mean, honestly, these things are very seriously bad stuff has happened as a result of this, right? Just go back and listen to the polygamy interview we did with Naomi, right? I mean, lives have been turned upside down, destroyed, and ruined, and people dead because of this sermon right here, okay? And William Brannum bears that responsibility. He bears it. There's no way around it. He bears that responsibility. Yeah. If you are a Christian historian and you've never been involved in the

message and you've, you've heard this and you've now come in contact with just how bad this was and you go and you read the sermon, I don't even have to say it. You're aware that this theology, if it was being introduced as divine truth from thus say at the Lord, the sermon itself is the breeding ground for bad things to happen. It is an open breeding ground for heresy, for abuse, for all kinds of abuse, sexual physical. This is a horrific thing that has happened and it was the result of insanity. There is no two ways about it. That's what this is.

But as you mentioned earlier and I alluded to, it's not just the sermon that's the problem. He also had the papers and things that he met everybody in private. So I'm going to put a call out to everybody listening. If you have left the message of William Brannum and you somehow have a stack of those papers that he shared with the men with the instructions that he gave them, which were worse than this sermon. Send them to us, but please, I'm going to preface this too.

If there are images in there, please take a black marker and black through the private parts that are in those papers because I don't want to see that. But send me, if you have access to them, papers and things because it needs to be documented for historical evidence.

If the members of the message were aware that William Brandham in private was sharing that filth, there's no way that you can stay in this cult. I mean, if Charles and I were to show up in church with the stacks of papers that William Brandham gave, they'd kick us out.

But William Brandham is openly saying in his insanity from the platform, hey, I've got some papers on how women react when you have sex with them. So if you've got them send them to us and if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-brandham.org and www.ChristianGospelChurch.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Brandham and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Brandham and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Join us again next week. We've got a great episode coming.