Weird Doctrines: A Church Culling

Hello and welcome to another episode. Of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at www.William-brannum.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, and friend, James Goad, and together we're discussing the very weird things that preachers say, why they say them and how they relate back to the latter-ring healing revivals of the late 1940s through the 1960s.

James, for some time, I've been toying with this concept in my head. I've been wanting to have an episode on preachers behaving badly. It's difficult, right? Because almost every single minister that you have been researching and in many of their cases, almost every single sermon could be an episode of that and of itself.

So where do you start, right? And apparently somebody sent you a sermon in particular. I don't know if I would even call this a sermon. Somebody sent you a preacher behaving badly, I'll just say it like that. We're not going to mention the minister's name, but gave you some special insight on what was going on in the course of this quote-unquote sermon.

And you asked me before the show, had I researched it, had I gone through what you have? And this is going to come as a complete, almost complete surprise to me. I actually did not listen to any of it yet.

I purposefully, for the sake of the episode, I purposefully want to be somewhat shocked at what you have to say. So I purposefully did not get into it very much. And you did mention, however, before the episode that there was some sort of a rant against t-shirts.

And I know this is a thing. There are many, many churches that I've known about for some time that are affiliated with this thing that t-shirts with prints are taboo. You're not supposed to wear them. I was never in any of those. They had limits as to what you could have on them. But you and I, for the audience who don't have the visuals, we're both wearing t-shirts.

Mine is the most, I call this my ex-culturet. You can't read the word j- Yeah, I'm gonna sit up here in a minute, but it says, it's got a picture of the Star Wars Death Star and this stormtrooper looking back and says, no, I had friends on that Death Star.

So, there's no better way to describe it, man. I had friends in this thing, you know? So, anyway, I'll let you take the lead on this one because you've done all the research and I'm the person who's gonna be shocked.

Yeah, so this is definitely one of the most interesting ones that we've tackled and I think it's a topic and it kind of wraps into the whole concept, especially in the sex that we're familiar with, this whole hyper militarized view of church order, this concept of church order and in these destructive cults, these sorts of things are used and weaponized to sort of get what the administration wants and a lot of times in the most, they're not usually very nice when it comes down to it.

But yeah, it's, and yeah, the whole t-shirt thing is definitely a sort of a mockery of the whole thing of this militarized view of what you have to wear and if you wear anything less than you're not, you're not the best Christian that you could be in the moment and it's just, it's one of those things that when you're in and around these groups, all this stuff is extremely familiar to a lot of people and if you've never been around a group like this, it would sound so foreign and so alien.

You're like, you're wearing clothes. Yeah, you're wearing clothes, right? Yeah, yeah, so what's the problem?

It's really so odd, I mean, I'll never forget when I first started doing this thing, I started out, you know, I didn't understand what this was. I actually thought that the central figure was actually a prophet and I thought that he had failed prophecies and yet he was still a prophet.

There's this weird thing in my head that it took me a long time to get out. And so if you go back to the early versions of what I did, which wasn't very polished, I'll admit, there were people that actually thought that I was still a part of it.

And I'll never forget, I had this lady contact me and she was from, I can't remember where, somewhere way up in Alaska and she said, man, I'm sorry, brothers, I just, I really want to be part of this religion, but I have to tell you, I would freeze to death if I wore the clothes that you guys want me to wear.

My legs would get frostbite and even still then, I'm still kind of unraveling the difference between what the Bible says about modesty and what the Pentecostal religion and this, you know, these Pentecostal cults taught about modesty being skin, because the two are separate, and if you actually know the cultures behind the statements in the Bible, speaking of modesty, it really doesn't have that much to do with sexual desire, skin, or anything like this. It's more about don't go dressed in gaudy with these, you know, heavy jewelry into this primitive tribe that's going to look at you like you're some kind of a

king or dictator monarch, whatever. So it was really odd to get this comparison, but then take that level as further, don't wear t-shirts, it's just absolutely absurd. Yeah, the whole thing about all that stuff with the t-shirts is it's all crazy, you know, that it's so there's so much weight put on what you're wearing in these in these services, and it's all about, you know, we are the elite, we are the best, so we wear the best, and there's a lot that goes into that, but one of the things that I wanted to do is I kind of wanted to circle back, and because that topic is actually further in

the discussion, but yeah, so because one of the things here that is so key about this situation, and this is something that people who have been in groups like this, they will have seen things like this, and they will have probably experienced something like this at one point in time in their group, and you kind of need the larger context and the larger picture to kind of see it all play out, to kind of really see what's going on here, because in isolation, you can pick out a few things that are kind of like, oh, that's odd or that's weird, but when you kind of see the entire thing

playing out, it kind of sets a picture that is even more sinister than just a few isolated pieces. So I want to go back to this, and then I'm going to set up this first clip here, but you have a situation where there's apparently some murmurings in the congregation that a deacon may be taking more authority or maybe influencing the pastor, which is people who know are familiar with these groups. The pastor, especially the groups I'm familiar with, is like the supreme, like he is the central figure of that group. So if someone comes in that appears to be

taking more authority than that central figure, it kind of creates a problem, especially with that pastor's his authority, and then also whatever else is going on behind the scenes. So it's very interesting, and of course, since this is sort of set up in a church setting, of course, just like everything, it's set up with a prayer. So let's take a look at this prayer real quick, and see how the foundations being laid for what's about to transpire.

Let's just pray. Heavenly Father, Lord God Almighty, Lord, you know what needs to be done. what needs to be said, Father. Lord, there's nothing new under the sun, Lord, that Satan has his devices. He uses over and over and over, Lord, because they work so effectively, Lord.

The Father made this to these words, help to put something down, Lord, and may you take care of it, may you caress the hearts, Lord, and may they repent of these things, whoever they may be, Father.

Lord, may that perfect will be done, help me lead and guide me now, Father. That precious name of Jesus Christ, I ask, amen. Oh, boy, James, whoever they may be.

I've been in sermons like they're, you know, setting, I don't, I hate to use the word sermon. This is not a sermon. I've been in situations where there was a calling. Let's use the word calling in this episode. I've been in churches where they had a calling and, you know, to the average person, if somebody was out on the street and suddenly decided, hey, I want to go see what this church is all about, they'd hear this and they'd just think, well, that's kind of odd.

They wouldn't understand. But in the hierarchy that you mentioned, you're right. The pastor is the ultimate authority. He is the dictator for the people and he's the king of his kingdom. But even more strange to people who were never in this thing, the deacons are the policemen.

But they're more than that. They're the policemen. They're the private investigators. They're the all-in-wonder enforcing, enforcing the, I don't know what you call it. They're, they're the ones that in, in school, there were the people that would tattle tail on you. You know, they're, they're watching everybody, they're telling the pastor so that the pastor can give a sermon.

So whenever he says, whoever they may be, he's setting up the situation where the pastor can initiate a calling. Right. And one of the things that is something that even I was more shocked about when I started learning about how these militant groups, how things sort of go, was a lot of times, there was a lot of people in the administration who play, they play like they're not as clued in a lot of times as they are. So they'll say things like, you know, Lord, whoever. But a lot of times these people know who's about to get the chopping,

who's on the chopping block. And you know, it's so sad because in these groups, we're, we're taught to have extreme reverence and, and we're always supposed to be humble and neat to the spirit as it's moving. And when you've got situations that creep up where people take control and they use them for nefarious purposes, they take that weakness and that, and that humbleness and they use it to cover you into a corner.

or why they beat you mercilessly to get the results they won out of you. Yeah, it's a verbal whiplash, man. They're, it's so, it's so awful because now having experienced normal churches and understanding that it's not meant to be this hierarchy.

The pastor is meant to be your humble servant, the lowest among you, the one who's trying to help you. And there's all these parables of the shepherd and the sheep. He's just literally a person who's there to help and help guide.

And in these churches, they, they want to give you the mentality that he alone is the mouthpiece of God. And in doing so, they usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the one sent to lead and guide us.

The ministers, even in their sermon content, they'll try to set it up such that the Spirit can't guide you. I have to be the one guiding you and we call that the Spirit. And so literally he's combining himself, his ministry, you know, whatever it is.

And I've not, you know, researched this particular minister, I'm speaking in general terms, but they try to combine themselves where they become the mouthpiece of God, the Holy Spirit. And then every single time they mention the helper that is to come, they are that helper.

They are by proxy. They're the Holy Spirit to the people. And it sets up this hierarchy that it's, there's no other way to say it, man, it is demonic. And that's why you see these callings that we're talking about today.

James, let's do this. So we try very hard not to single out a particular church or minister and, you know, pick on them. I'm like you, I know nothing about this church, hardly. I know a few things because I've been told, but honestly, people don't realize this.

I'm just so far disconnected from it, even when people send me clips. I'll skim it. I don't usually, I'll try to find some way to translate it, so I don't have to hear it because it's obnoxious.

But this is one of the ones that you told me about and I apologize, I've not listened to it. I have listened to bits and pieces of this sermon. I've not listened to anything of this calling.

I said it again this sermon. I've listened to bits and pieces of this, but honestly, it's so painful to listen to what he is doing to the people, spiritually abusing the people that it's just hard for me.

So let's do this. Let's take what is happening here. This is one of the few, I think there are three that you told me about, wherein this deacon is describing the church is struggling.

I don't know if they're imploding or if they're, maybe there's some sort of a division being created in the church. but essentially what has happened according to the way I understand the intent of this clip is that when the latter-rain movement was established and William Brannum as the central figure began setting up the hierarchy for a destructive cult. He made himself, made the deacons, he called them gods policemen, so instead of their servant he's made them into a militarized force, basically. And to the average person who sits back and look at this, well, they're the authority. They are the policemen, right? And so it looks like there's this big tug of

war going on in the church, like you said, but let's just play this clip and let's build upon this and see where this heads, because if you look at what happened in this calling, this appears to be the pivotal moment in which the whole thing turns from a Christian quote unquote Christian sermon into the calling. And here's the clip. I'm not comparing myself to brother but there's been a thing rustling along the people apparently. That's makes all the decisions around here. My brother, I guess it's just a figurehead. You bring shame upon me. You bring shame

upon my pastor that you would say or think such things. Again, again, I try to tell people, you think brother. He's the one that makes a decision. You're the ones that supply the money.

He gives a little bit of the back. He gives a lot more back to you than what the government will give back to you. I'll tell you that. I hope you're satisfied brother. Just sold a house and bought a house. Did I have anything to do with it? No, I didn't. My wife found the house on the ads and a paper called brother. There's a house over here and he bought it. But please, please don't shame me. Don't shame my brother. He's not Joe Biden. Yeah, so there's so many weird things that and I have so many questions and I wish, you know, yeah, it just there's so many questions that

have bound when you hear these sorts of things going on because, you know, what you see here is evidence that things might not be as healthy as they probably are presented on the 10, you know. Yeah.

There are situations that only come up when things start getting funny and fishy and people start poking around and asking questions because things don't seem quite right. Now, like you said, we're not intimately, we don't have intimate knowledge of a lot of this stuff that's going on.

There's probably a lot of underlying even deeper context to a lot of these things that we just don't have the context for and probably gets even weirder if you dig even further deeper. Like, if you were, if I was intimately involved with this, with this church and I like knew what was going on, it would, it could probably get weird.

just from my experience being around so many other churches and seeing how things go, especially when subjects like this come up and things start happening this way, it's usually not exactly how it's being presented at face value.

But yeah, so there's, especially when it's what's going on with the money, what's going on this, and like we've talked about in previous episodes, you know, churches, normal churches are a lot more open with what's going on, but in these cult churches and these small isolated churches, the pastor or the central figure and his few lackeys, they control the funds, and like you as a layperson, you don't know anything that's going on, you don't know how much toilet paper they're buying to call back to one of your previous examples.

But it's so crazy how when people start asking questions or something seems to scratch at the surface of what's being obfuscated from the group, the claws come out, and it's so weird. It is, man. I mean, people have no idea.

Some of the people in the churches have no idea that they're supposed to be the policeman, otherwise, you know, if they're the ones that are tattletailing to the pastor, they would steer clear. I mean, these guys would be alone in a corner and nobody would talk to them because anything you say can and will be held against you, right?

I, you know, when I was in it because of my rank, my family's rank in the cult, I really had no idea that it was this thing, and I kind of toyed with the deacons.

I was, you know, I was close friends with them, and I knew their weirdnesses, I knew, to me, they were just average guys. They weren't some sort of a weird authority like they're made out to be. And I never forget there's this one deacon that he had a thing for money, which is the opposite of the quality for a deacon.

I'll just leave it at that, but he had this thing for money. And if you were to drop any piece of change, he was going to find a way to get it in his pocket, or what? And I used to toy with him like, I would be walking and I would keep, this is wrong. I can't believe I'm saying this publicly.

I purposefully kept extra pennies in my pocket so that when I'd walk past him, I would roll it as far as I could to watch him run chase it. Literally, no matter where, he was going to run chase it.

And one time I got one of those half dollars and I got one of those glue mouse traps and I shoved that thing way up under the glue and just said it somewhere. And later on, he was walking around showing somebody how a styrofoam cup could stick to his hand.

It was just, it was so wrong, man. But the point I'm trying to make here is these are just average people. They're not some supernatural authority. like they're made out to be. But they're in a situation where the central figure has made a destructive hierarchy where they are, they're not just your spiritual elder, they are your physical authority. And they, to some extent, judge jury and executioner in some churches. And it really sounds like that's what's being set up here. Yeah. And that whole thing about judge jury and executioner, that's something that a lot of us who come out of these groups are very familiar with

because it's, it's all sunshine and roses when you're in line with the group and everything's hunky-dory. But the minute you start asking questions or you were causing problems that wouldn't be problems in a normal healthy environment, the way in which you can be removed and extracted in the most painful, vicious way possible, opens your eyes to what these people, what, what can happen in some of these situations because the, because it's a shot to so many people because, especially if they've never encountered a bad side of a destructive group, if they've only seen the good side, they've only had a, they've only had a good dinner with the pastor, you know, these

things are, they have no reason to see the group as anything else. But when the clause come out and, and, and this, and stuff like this happens, it really is a, is a shot to the system to a lot of people and, and a lot of times it further creates even deeper trauma, especially if these things result in people coming out because it, they've got everything else going on and then they're also trying to deal with this, the shock that they were forcefully removed from a group that they considered to be part of them. Oh, yeah. And in a lot of cases, one of the most common questions

I get in our support group, believe it or not, somebody who has recently discovered that they're in a destructive cult and just decided to change churches, go to another church, see how it is, they, they may not have even fully mentally left the cult, but they just want to go, okay, let's go to another church and let's compare. Well, these deacons, who are also the private investigators, find out. I think I mentioned this in the finale on our first season with Charles, but we had a deacon, not a deacon, but he was an elder in the church who actually went every

Sunday to spy on my brother as he started attending a new church every Sunday. He was parking there, watching, walking the door and then drive off for intimidation. And that's the way this thing set up. But when you leave and they discover this, then what happens is the deacons want together around and they want to become spiritual mercenaries. They will, they'll ask you to come to their house or you go to theirs. And whenever they, meet you, they spiritually be radio to the extent that you don't know, some of these people don't know where they are and where they're going.

They're like so beaten down because they've been spiritually executed by these people. And to a person who's just now finding their footing, realizing that they were in an obstructive cult, this can be terrifying.

I mean, it just terrifying. They tried to do it to me and my wife, I could see on her face, she was maybe not terrified but she was really upset and they actually came to my house or said they were coming to my house.

I don't know if they actually came, but I told them, I'm not going to let you in. And my wife was like really upset and I said, don't be upset. You know, even if they come out in front of our house and chant purses at us like an African, you know, African witch doctor or whatever, it's no different than if they were just spraying my windows with the water hose.

You know, the water is not coming through. So, but that's the problem with the way these groups are set up. The deacon is your judge, jury, executioner, and then becomes the marks whenever you decide you want to lead the church.

There are no real teeth to these people who try to control and manipulate you in your mind because if, you know, there's, we have laws in place, there's things that people can't do. But the thing that they try to do is get you with manipulation and control and fear.

But once you're able to set aside those things, you remind them to move on from the fear and control, they have nothing over you. So that sort of leads us into this next thing that's happening here.

And something that when you're dealing with a spiritual group, one of the ways to get people in a mood of control and sort of being receptive to what you have to say is to really get in on this spiritual aspect, really hone in on this and get people to think something really spiritual is going on, especially because a lot of people normally aren't receptive to being told you're a bad person or so and so is about your best friends, a bad person.

You know, we need to get rid of them. So what's the best way to do is let them think that God is moving and God is behind this entire thing that's going on here, even if you don't understand it, you know, understand that God is God is the one orchestrating this right now.

And that's one of the things, without knowing the context of what's going on here, you zoom out and just look at this from just an unbiased point of view. And you see all these things happening, you see things that just don't look right.

This is something that you, we've all experienced and we've all seen in other situations dealing with these kinds of groups. And you know, it's a very interesting, it's very interesting and it's kind of area at the same time when you start to examine the levels of manipulation that are going on in a lot of these groups.

I say obey these things or I shall remove thee, I say unto you my servants, I speak this word unto thee. You have been well pleased in my sight and I say speak not against the administration that I choose to put up before thee, before I have led this and these things shall got thee through the end and I say my son, I have used thee through the years.

I say lay this burden down for I am well pleased with thee. I say this unto thee my son, I shall give you a repression and I shall lift this burden from thee, the saith, the Holy Ghost.

Oh boy, James, you did not warn me that we're going to have this on the show. You know, I'm going to receive hate mail for it, but I'm going to give my opinion and it's my opinion.

Welcome to your opinion, if you are opposed to my opinion. In these Pentecostal groups, there are people who strongly believe that anything said in tongue and what they call speaking in tongues, that anything said is directly from God.

Now what's odd about that is many of the same people that believe that will compare a prophecy given by a minister, leader, evangelist or whatever, and they will critically examine that prophecy and if the prophecy fails, let's say that was not from God, but the moment in which they have a spiritual utterance, whatever you call this, they call it speaking in tongues, all critical thought is suppressed because wow, they just spoke in tongues.

They don't think about what's being done in this church is really wrong. This is not of God. If this thing that this person said was from a deity, it wasn't the Christian God, and think about the way in which it's phrase, let's say at the Holy Spirit, they're taking the Holy Spirit, which lives according to the Bible in each one of us and leads us and guides us.

And they're saying that this tongue, this thing where I'm saying bless these people that are about to execute a calling in the church is being blessed by the Holy Spirit. So I for one, I'm going to give my opinion that this is wrong.

I don't care where you stand on tongues. I also know that in those same examples I gave. They'll look at ministers who have what they consider what they call a prophecy and when they examine it and they realize it's false They'll say, well this person lied that wasn't a prophecy. It didn't come from God. They made it up Well, what about this person?

He's literally blessing a calling in the church Can you really say that that person really was doing that or was this all rehearsed for me? I look at it and I I really question whether or not that was a rehearsed Speaking in tongues. Yeah, it's it's something that As I was going through an examining what was going on here It's it's it's something that really stood out to me as extremely odd and I've been in churches like this I've been I've been around when when people start doing the tongues thing and It's one of those things that especially in the church that I grew up in it was always everybody was always extremely

Revolent everybody was always extremely fearful because of the way like you said that they were taught that this was this was God This was an angel. This was something that was happening that was extremely supernatural and We're just going to be extremely reverent and we're just going to treat this like it's God and then we'll sort it out later and When this is going on it really It really sets the stage of of the things that are to come and and it It really It really makes you nervous about the potential for for for what is like like you said

Maybe the potential orchestration level of what's going on here because it's just seems so odd like like it seems out of place and It doesn't feel like something that's just natural occurrence, you know and I don't know the person who who did this. I don't know anything about them. I This is not a attack on that person This is all just to draw an example of of what's going on here because Yeah, it definitely seems odd Yeah, and I second that this what I said is not attacking the person. I don't know the person's heart

They they might truly believe that that came from God I can truly tell you my opinion is if it was it wasn't the right God. I'll just leave it at that I know people who claim that they have spiritual dreams and I have even seen them tell me something That they knew it from a dream before it actually happened in my life. So Whether that's real or not. I'm not going to say but they they believe this thing I've also seen that same person who had that same thing happen as a spiritual prediction or whatever you want to call it who

New of a situation and was so deeply deeply involved with it that night and day that's all all they could think, they couldn't eat, sleep, they were continually thinking about this thing. And lo and behold, while their mind is obsessed with it, they suddenly start having dreams about it.

And I have to question, was that really a spiritual dream or did they just hype themselves up to a mental condition where this thing came out? I do know, I've studied speaking in tongues, and I do know that there are psychological conditions in which you can condition your head to do this.

And anybody, I'll get hate mail, I already see it, but anybody who thinks otherwise, it's a Hindu practice as well. Hindus can do similar things, and they don't call it speaking in tongues like the Pentecostals, but it's very, very similar.

So if you believe that, then you also have to believe by extension that the Hindu gods and their thousands of them, that the Hindu gods are the true God because they also spoke in tongues.

So for me, I have no problem, critically examining anything like this. Whether the person was doing something purposefully wrong or not, I'm not gonna say, but what they said was wrong. Right. And, you know, I think one of the things that would be kind of helpful here is to kind of quickly recap real quick, kind of like where we are in the chronological order of things.

So we start out with the Deacon doing his prayer, setting the stage, then also going into talking about the issues, the things that have come up, and, you know, trying to set things from his perspective in the right framing of how they want it to go.

And then after he's done speaking, you've got a transition over to the pastor gets up to speak, but before that, we've got this, this tongues, this tongue speaking, interjected in the middle of that.

So as we're handing off to the pastor, we're moving on from the tongues, and then we're going into the pastor speaking. And this is where we start getting into the situation about what we're wearing.

And, you know, it's one of those things that like we talked about, and I probably should not harp on it too much since we spent so much time at the beginning, sort of set the stage for that.

You know, it's very, in these churches, it's very, very important what you wear to church. And, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, there's a big difference between wearing, being disrespectful, and there's a big difference for just, you know, coming and wearing what you have or whatever, and there's like, because you know when somebody's trying to be disrespectful with what they're doing, you know, and so it's not like a fine line between, between that kind of stuff, so, but it's one of those things that, if you were, and a lot of these groups,

if you were not wearing almost the biggest and the best sorts of clothes, post-to-church, especially like suits and all this sorts of thing, then you are almost shamed for not having either God's not blessing you enough to be able to wear the right kind of clothes to church that we're expected for being the bride.

We have this great knowledge, God is bestowing all this wonderful secret knowledge on to us, and you can't even wear your Sunday best, you know. It's crazy, but yeah, let's roll into this clip here and then we can dive in a bit further.

Okay, I was looking this morning at some young brothers, 14, 15 years old, and stand up. I stand up, stand up, come on, stand up please, come on. Look at these young men, the **** boys, there's this **** boys, stand up, nobody told them, you boys wear your best on Sunday.

When we went to, you don't know how proud that made me to be able to look at some young men that were in a crowd of people that don't care how they dress. I love your brothers, you can be seated now, and I'm going to say this this morning, if you've got a position in this church, honor that position enough to prove that you will dress at least with a jacket on.

I don't care if you have to work, you put it in your truck, you put it in your car, but you wear that when you come into church. I'm not talking to everybody because we got young men sitting back there, they're men now, they're in their 20s, not all of them, but I'm proud of them and you sisters, God bless your hearts, I would expect to see you and I believe a would if I met you on the street tomorrow dressed before that you were covered.

We're not in this for a show, we're not in this to just be church people or try to fool somebody. Yes, so James, this is one of the, I think there were three clips that I did know about, this is one of the ones that I did know about, and this is an example, if when you're under this you don't recognize what's happening.

So he's having the boy stand up and saying, you are the ones who are doing right. Well, the flip side of that is he's singling out every other person in the congregation who isn't doing right.

It's part of the calling process. So these are the ones who I'm going to say that their spiritual significance is greater than all of you others. I've been in churches. where they did this kind of thing and it's awful.

Because like you said, not everybody can even afford good clothes. And I have seen people who literally had nothing but rags and they would come to church and they would feel so, I don't know what's the word, insignificant is not even cutting it.

Like they feel demoralized. They feel demoralized because they don't have good clothes. And that's what the passage is about modesty and the Bible are talking about. When you come and you look like this and remember, the Bible says God does not look to the outside.

He looks to the inside. And when you present yourselves in this way where you're taking specific individuals and saying they're more godly than these others, well what about the others that can't afford it?

Does God not love them? That's the problem with what's happening here. And like I said, I had seen this quote towards the end of it and I'll play it here in a second. They start talking about going on vacations and how no matter where they went, the wife dressed holy.

And it makes the deacon sound like they're on some spiritual plane. I'll play it right here. I went on a trip, which was a trip of the lifetime to me. You say, well you just been to Norway.

That was a work in vacation. I preached five times that every day we was on that trip, sister's dress, just like she is this morning. You can't wear out a Christian life. You can't wear it on the outside.

So gotta be something inside pushing you on. So he's talking about the wife and the wife is apparently dressing like the saint while they're on vacation. And it goes even further to the point I'm trying to make.

If they were sent to spread the gospel in some of these islands, you know, like the lady in Alaska that I mentioned who couldn't become part of the religion because she might die if she wore the clothes.

Well, think about near the equator. You gotta wear all this heavy garb and you're sweating like a pig. You might also die or dehydrate at minimum. So there are there are island nations where they wear the custom according to their environment.

And they present themselves like this. The odd story I'll give here and I won't give his name. I probably can't give all the details, but one of the deacons that I knew and considered to be a close friend, he and his wife went on vacation to a place like I'm describing.

And yes, his wife wore the Pentecostal garb, but he had chosen a nude beach. I'm not going to give too many details, but let's just say it like this. He enjoyed that nude beach a lot.

Oh, man, yeah, it's crazy. is because I've experienced the way this is sort of being presented here. I've experienced this a lot in these types of churches where the speaker will speak out of both sides of their mouth. So they'll say that I'm not telling you what to do, but I'm also going to take this example that I'm trying to promote, and I'm going to put it up on such a high pedestal that you choose to align with it because I'm presenting this as this is a whole year route. And so you end up with this sort of thing, and I saw this a lot where everybody

is always trying to one up the other person because they're told it's something on the inside, but that if it's truly on the inside, it's going to be fighting to get out of you.

And so everybody to prove how spiritual they are, they're always trying to one up each other, wearing better clothes, being more getting to church earlier. They're always trying to do these outward things to one up everybody else to prove how spiritual they are. And it's one of those things that you end up doing the thing that they want, and they can sit back and say, well, I didn't tell you to do X, Y, or Z. I never told you you had to wear a suit. I just told you that these boys who are wearing a suit are an extreme

example of what we were trying to promote. And so in effect, they get what they want without exactly telling you explicitly do X, Y, or Z. And it's something that this, I experienced it a lot with all different types of topics and all sorts of things where the minister can sit back and say, well, I never said to do that, but you did it. They got what they wanted, but they can sit back and say, well, I never told you to do it.

Exactly. And you know, these churches, the way that they are set up, they are churches of condemnation. It is a quote unquote gospel of condemnation. And the problem is because they condemn based off of opinions instead of actual biblical themes, whatever it is that the pastor or the deacons don't like, they will just be right you for it. And they will, they'll try to make you think that you are a low and evil person. If you're doing something that they have an opinion against, and it's just an opinion, but because they have associated and linked the Holy Spirit to whatever is their opinion, their opinion then becomes a

God to you. And in doing so, I have to say it becomes a false God to you. One of the things that you'll see happen in some of these situations where you do have a calling that's about to take place, you know, you have, you also have to talk about those who have also went away.

And it would not no longer part of us and one of the things that this next clip it's so it's so interesting because I know I've seen from A lot of the examples I've seen I've never seen one yet where What was presented over the pulpit and one of these churches about somebody who left or someone who's no longer part of the group is Exactly how it actually is in reality So there's always it's always framed in a way that Makes the group look good and the other person who left look bad But let's let's roll into this clip and dive in a bit further

We had a couple and their family that left a few months ago now Now here they're Trying to pull others into the church to which that they've gone to You know why they left Because it didn't only hear us brothers speak about sports Because their young people are tied up in them Whatever whatever you're tied up in is probably what you're going to do Now they're trying to get other people to follow them Yeah, you know whenever I first left again. This is a gospel of condemnation quote unquote gospel And what they like to do is they like to find something that they caught you in and

It's a sin that they've invented. It's not even an actual what the Bible would consider to be sin It's extra biblical sin an extra biblical God creating an extra biblical sin that you have to wear You know these weights on your shoulders to uphold well there's also varying opinions among the ministers so what one opinion what what one minister holds is his opinion and He gives it with the authority of the Holy Spirit as his Holy Spirit opinion Well, the other ministers may not share the same opinion So I grew up in a world where sports was not forbidden

I also went to churches where it was Some some of the churches I've been to sports were forbidden my family my father was a sports star and in fact He was he was actually You know won some medals. I believe it was in high school. He was he was actually pretty good I grew up. I'm a musician and an artist and you know, I I'm not very good at sports I'll just say it like that. I I do enjoy them. I'm not very good at them But I do play from time to time and somebody after I left the cult somebody caught me

either through a Maybe a Facebook post or something saw a photograph of me doing some sport. I don't even remember what it was and They thought they would hold it over my head as though I would be embarrassed by it and I'm not you know I'll probably if they saw my score I might be embarrassed about it I didn't see that, but they start holing my head.

John is doing the sports. He's the evil guy. And I just kind of laugh because they have no clue what they're saying. And, you know, I made the point earlier. I'm going to continue to make it.

It's a false god. They have a false god with a false religion with a false set of rules that has no basis in the Bible whatsoever. But they'll try to uphold it because this quote-unquote holy spirit spoke it to a minister or a speaking in tongues or whatever it was.

And they have now taken that and it has become molded into this false deity that they worship. Yeah. Sports is one of those things. It depends, like you said, it depends on which group you're in.

But I know I've seen it both ways where sometimes it's a little okay and the minister allows the parents to put their kids in sports activities. But always encourages about the time they reach adulthood.

They probably need to be putting that away and getting more focused on the church. But while they're, you know, young and doing all that stuff, they shouldn't be playing professional sports because that's ungodly and that's just, that's gets further into the world and all the things that they would have to have to be around and all the money and all that, yeah, no, no, no, don't do that.

By the time they reach adulthood, they should probably know if it. Then you have other churches who are like just, I mean, sports is just, it's a completely ungodly, it's a waste of time.

We should not be, our young people shouldn't be focused on that stuff. And they should be more focused on listening to tapes if you're in a message context, reading their Bible and, you know, worrying about getting to church on time and being involved in the service and all those things.

They should be solely focused on that, you know, teach them how to be productive and go to work and that stuff. But when they're not doing that, they should be focused on church, you know, and this, this one, and it's, you know, I hate to even call it church when we're talking about these cold movements, but that's how they think of it when they're in the movement.

But, you know, and it's, it is. It's so destructive because you get people who do. They push back on it and they reject because they're like, this just doesn't seem right. This doesn't seem to line up with everything else I know.

And this seems completely overboard and overkill. And then, you know, if, you know, if they need a good excuse, it's, it's, they love sports too much as a really good excuse. You know, there are so many examples I could give.

I'm actually having a hard time deciding which ones, but one of the clip, one of the three clips that I knew about was talking about dancing at weddings. And this is a funny thing to me because in the cult and its affiliates, dancing is forbidden.

Which just blows your mind because all throughout the Old Testament, they were dancing. And they were dancing and it was forms of dancing for praise, for celebrations. I mean, on every occasion had a special dance, but we grew up in a world where dancing, if you danced, you had a demon, you had a devil, which, again, points to the fact that this is not the Christian God, this is a different God, because the God of the Bible clearly loved dancing.

But I'll play the clip here, but this man gets into this rant about people who are dancing at weddings. Well, have you not read the Old Testament? There was a wedding sometime a year or so ago that there was a dance. I wasn't there.

The word come back to me about certain things that went on, of which I won't get into, and then the last wedding between our young brother and sister, there was a dance there. I was there. But I tell you, I tell you right now, if this is going to be something that's going to be done before you dance, I'll leave the next time. Don't you better make that the last thing in that thing, in that, because you're not going to accuse me of something that I have nothing to do with, and I never danced a dance in my life, and I don't even start now,

unless the Lord puts it in me, then I'll dance. They've been times that I almost have, but it didn't. Maybe I just held back. You know what I'm saying these things this morning, because I love you people.

I don't say it out. I hate the dancing thing. I was always instructed growing up in these churches that dancing was very satanic. It was we shouldn't do it. The only sort of dancing we should be doing is dancing in the spirit if that ever happens in a service. That's the only dancing that's condoned in these churches. It's crazy, because like you said, if you go back and just look at the history, especially in these churches where they pull so heavily out of the Old Testament for their more dogmatic and more strict, especially when they try to pull things for clothing and

different things like that, they'll always try to pull out the Old Testament to reaffirm stuff. But then dancing always just gets left back there in the Old Testament, and they'll just be like, well, we're in a different thing, we're in a different dispensation, whatever, however they put it, and it's this pick and choose of what they're going to pull and what they're going to leave behind, which is so problematic when you really get down and really start looking at what's being left behind.

But yeah, there is so much more, and this is another thing. We are so far away from the context and the times in which these things were written, even the time between the Old Testament and the Old Testament.

estimate and the New Testament, and then us from a point in time when we were 2000 years from the New Testament, and it's like we live in a completely different time, the societal guidelines and the way the societal norms are, we're so much different.

We don't have the context for what it was like to be in that time, and ministers try to pull things like they're being said today and apply today's context to things, and you end up with this completely weird thing, and all of a sudden dancing is outlawed, you know, and it's ridiculous.

Yeah, and you know, it's not just the Old Testament. Many of these same ministers that forbid dancing, they'll tell you the story about the prodigal son, and they use it to just, you know, as a gut ranch on the heart.

Somebody who's wanted to stray, let's lead him back into the cult, but they don't tell you, if you get down to, what is it, verse 25 of book of Luke chapter 15, part of them bringing the boy back who had gone astray was dancing, music and dancing, man.

So it's part of the story, but they won't tell you that part. Dancing is forbidden. It just, it blows your mind, it just, again, to my point. It shows you that this is not the Christian God that these people are serving.

Yeah, and as we lead into this next clip here, you know, there's, there's, there's so many weird things that go on and, and, and you see, there's, and, and we've talked about how, you know, these groups, how they pray on women and, and they control what they can wear and things like that, and things that normal society, and I'm talking about the most normal of normal society would be like, this is completely fine.

We have no problem with this, but in the cult, I mean, if you're wearing anything other than a, than a turtle neck at times, as a woman, you're like going to hell as a Jezebel.

It's just, it's just how it is in these groups. But let's, let's roll into this clip and, uh, and dive in a bit further. I was told something that happened lately. So I, I saw, I saw the pictures.

I saw the, I saw the video. I know what I saw. I saw a young girl in a video now that it's out to where it can be seen other places and in the States and know that in the world of a young girl here with her showing too much of the flesh.

So let's move into a video that had, uh, a word that I wouldn't even mention the letter to it because it is that vulgar. I tell you what young people, if you're exposing yourself in a way that you shouldn't, there these six predators out here that are waiting for you.

There are many of a young girl that have put their selves on video today that are in six slave capes or I can't never happen, it can, it can. Yes, so this one, I mentioned earlier, these decons and you know, these guys are private investigators. They're watching you, they're, you know, whatever you're doing, they've got an eye on you. They've got an eye on your social media accounts. We actually had people who escaped the cult because of this exact scenario. They had posted something on Facebook and I can't remember exactly what it was, but and I'm not going to give

his name. The minister got up and literally said, God gave me a vision and you, as I'm calling you out of my church, you were doing X, Y and Z. And the person left and the contact me said, no, he didn't have a vision. He saw my Facebook account. And it's just so wrong, man, what they're doing to the people, but more to the point, the, the showing of too much flesh. Okay, I'd get if you want to dress like a prostitute, that might not be a good idea. But Jesus sat with the prostitutes, right? You lift them up. They won't tell

you that part. There's not too many sermons about Christ with the prostitutes in this type of religion. But think about what it is. This is a Pentecostal religion wherein skin, the skin that God gave you is evil skin. It's so wrong. But where do they draw the line?

And they kept moving the line back and back and back and back. If you look at some of the old Pentecostals before the latarane movement, they're dressed, you know, not even as conservative as some of the modern ones that I've seen. It's really, really odd. There were in the cult that I grew up in. There were actually ministers who said that if your toes were showing, you were a harlot. Your toes, man. And I remember I was in the cult when I first learned this. And I was thinking, you know, the toes don't really turn me on that much.

I wonder what's wrong with this minister? Yeah, it is. It's crazy. And I did inquire a bit to try to figure out what's going on. And from what I understand, this girl was wearing something in line with what you would expect to wear to a prom. And if that's really what's going on here, this is, this is really is just ridiculous and ridiculous to the extreme.

And that's, I mean, we're talking about extreme groups and extreme movements. So I guess we should expect nothing less. But, you know, it is. It's so sad how, you know, Now, and that's something I was talking to somebody who was familiar, who was an outsider, who was familiar with the brand of movement, and they knew, they knew of some of the kids and had interactions with their kids.

And one of the things that they said about the girls is they would always come over from school and want to wear that person's girls close because they're like, I want to be normal like you.

I want to, and it's so sad that a lot of these girls have to sneak away and do things and they get a moment of just feeling normal and just, and they're not out trying to be hard on all these things that put on, but it's like just desperately, I see nothing wrong with what you're doing.

And I just want to just want a chance of normalcy, and it's so sad, and even this person was expressing to me how sad it was, and they were even saw that back then being like, wow, how bad is it if they just want to wear my daughter's pants for a second, just to feel normal, then maybe that's weird, yeah, it is, it's so sad.

And then just to see the militarized side of this where it's like, when you fall out of line, everything comes down upon you, and all of your sins will be made known, and you will be ripped from this congregation and made an example of because we can't have such in our congregation because we are of a higher calling.

You know, and a lot of people don't really think about this. I'm in contact with the executives at the spiritual abuse forum, and they constantly have these posts on their forum about the, they do focus on Pentecostal churches, but they talk about these sexual problems in the churches, pastors, elders, deacons, praying upon men, women, and children, and it is a widespread problem.

I'm not going to say that it's only in the Pentecostal style churches because it's everywhere, but if you look at the sheer numbers of what they're showing me, I've never seen, like you take the Baptist church, I've never seen numbers like that out of a Baptist denomination.

The number of men that are being arrested, I mean, I think there were either two or three just this month, it's unbelievable. Think of what it does to the minds of the children. Back to the toe example.

I have no problem with seeing a woman's toes, you know, there are parts of a woman that excite a man. To me, I don't understand, I know that there are cultures, you know, entire cultures and other countries that the toe is the thing, me, no, man, I know what that toe is being, I don't want something covered in mud.

But think about the children in there, think of the boys. who from birth were told that if they see a little bit of a toad, they're looking at a sex symbol. Then they get out into the real world, you go to the mall, you go to Walmart, you go to Kroger, and you suddenly see a woman in sandals, and you see a toad, well suddenly, you've been associating the toad with sex in your head.

Now these men think that they're literally in a courthouse. I mean, that's how bad it is. And it's awful. For me, it still goes back to the point. I'm going to continue to say it.

It is a false god that they're serving. It's so crazy. And all these examples have led us down to even one of the most craziest examples of this entire thing. And there's kind of really is the cherry on top of all of the things that you could bring against somebody to say that they're not they're not acting like they should in this group.

And they're kind of going against what we want. And it's, I mean, you know, talking about somebody taking too many vacations is something that I never thought I would have heard in coming out of a message church.

But you know, these days I shouldn't just I just shouldn't be surprised about the things that they're going to use to try to whip people into shape or cut them out if they have to.

You know, but this next clip, it's a doozy. Brother, sister. Coach, I didn't mention some names. You didn't think I would do that, did you? You're gone too much. You take too many vacations.

You leave your girls in the house alone. That is where predators come in. I'm sorry I have to do this. I appreciate brothers, what he said here this morning. Our sister and their brother just went on a trip to Italy.

It's only internet. Our sister was wearing a dress up to here. Makes me want to cry. They ain't nothing in Italy, but a bunch of Catholics and choirs and drunkards. I've always said here this morning.

I've always said it's good to hear what I got to say. I love them. I love the family. I had to correct my son. You know it. If you've got any ears to hear, you know it.

He's pulling away from what it was. I hope that he gets straightened out. I love my son. He tells me he loves me too. But there's a devil out there that is just reaching, reaching.

If there's somebody... If there's somebody else that has got that kind of inclamation about you, go right ahead. You may go to another church, but don't expect a rapture to take you. Now I'm judging.

There's not two truths. Yeah. So James, this is the last one that I did know about. In fact, I think I listened to part of this one. I couldn't listen to all of it because this is in its pure form, just pure spiritual abuse.

It has all of the elements of spiritual abuse. You have a statement that is clearly saying, I am spying on you. I'm going to watch your videos. I'm going to get in your private life.

I'm going to watch you. And if you don't do what is my opinion, I'm going to make you part of the calling. I'm going to turn everyone that you know, all of your friends.

I mean, in these churches, this is their everything. It's their support group. It's their friends, their families, their celebrations. Everything that they know and love is in here. I'm going to single you out in front of everybody else.

And I'm going to turn every single person in your life against you. That's what's happening here. The average person who's never been in this thing, they probably wouldn't catch all that. They would just listen to and think.

That guy is not a good guy. That's all they would think. But if you've been in this and you know what's happening, he has just ruined the lives of several people. The people that he's talking about here, but not just them.

In many cases, their friends, their family. I've seen this thing happen whenever they have a calling like this. And they call some son. Well by proxy, the father, the mother, well, they raised a bad son.

So they in turn are now frowned upon or sometimes they're cold as well. Brothers, sisters, cousins, friends, close friends, you know, family, even extended family sometimes, get part of the calling. Because what happens is it becomes, I hate to use the word Trump uses because it's not going to get in politics, but it's ridiculous.

This turns into an actual witch hunt. This turns into something where after the calling happens, now they start to examine all of the connections to it. And remember, these guys are spying on you.

They're watching your home videos. They're looking at your social media accounts. These men are truly purely evil men. And they want to make the lives of these people they call miserable. And in the worst cases, I know people who have dealt with this, it's horrific.

In the worst cases, some of them commit suicide. So they're actually causing the death of some of the people that are part of the calling. And for me, This is the climax of this whole calling, it's not a sermon, this calling event that's happening in this church, the climax.

The climax could lead to death. We don't know if it did or not. I don't even know when this was, but it could lead to death. And for me, James, this is problematic because now you've got a false gospel.

You've got a false god. The false god is giving you a false set of rules. And instead of the Christ who came to save the lowest sinner, the prostitute, you've got a false Jesus who doesn't like the woman who dresses like they say as a prostitute, whether it is or not.

They don't like the woman or the man, whatever's going on here, instead of helping them to share the gospel, to come to Jesus or whatever, instead, let's sever them and let's create a division in the body of Christ.

I question whether this is the body of Christ. This is the body of a false god. But say it was Christians, I'm not the one to judge them. They've created a wedge between their own body of their church people.

And there's no way that you can look at this event, this calling that happened. There's no way you can look at this and say, this is the Christian God. Yeah, and this is one of the things that, you know, when you look and this is when it really goes bad for a person, like when they're in these groups, when the entire administration comes down and says, you are not one of us.

And you know, they are, all of your dirty laundry, whether it's dirty or not, they make it in the eyes of the church, like this is all dirty laundry and we're exposing this all and putting you up on the crucifixion post because we are going to crucify you in front of the entire church.

And, you know, it's sad. It's so sad when, especially, and I don't know, I don't know these people that are being, that are, that are in this clip. But, you know, I would imagine just from, put myself in the shoes and imagine how I used to think of the people in the church that I went with.

You know, there were such a closeness and such a bond. And then to have something like this ripped from you is very traumatic for a lot of people. And some people, this is the start of their journey out.

If they weren't already showing signs of leaving and maybe that's what caused some of this to happen, you know, you never know it, it, it, things happen. And so sometimes maybe, you know, maybe they can find a way out from things like this, but this is just so horrible and so traumatic to be embarrassed and ridiculed and, and, and, and use an example to, to sort of, one, keep everybody else in line by showing, first you have examples early on of showing the good examples.

We want the, look at these boys and look at how they're addressing. This is, this is what we want. Now we're in the, this is what we don't want. These are the people that we don't want.

and it's, it is, it's so sad. And that's why when you lay it all out in context and you see it all play out and you see all the pieces working together, it really leaves you with a very sinister, sick feeling in the bottom of your stomach.

It's so sad, James. And you know, I've been trying to think through this whole episode, how do I in this? Because this is an awful event. This is a calling. And like I said, it could lead to deaths.

This is a calling from a false deity, from a people who are worshiping a false god. And these people, some of them, you know, it's awful, but I have seen cases like this where people actually died because of this.

How do you in this on a lighter note? And I'm glad that you said what you said because it is true when people see a calling like this. And the people, you know, I don't know these people.

I don't know the situation. I barely know the church. But the people who are in the church, they do know these people. And some of them, in the cases that I've seen where there is a calling, they're good people.

And when these people leave, suddenly it gives the mind a chance to think on the fact that, wait a minute, this is a good person. Am I doing what's right here? And in some cases that can lead to the person who's now critically thinking, it can lead to their escape.

So if there is a brighter note of this awful calling that we've examined, the brighter notice, it may help people escape and actually leave a false God and find the true God. So if you even, if you have weird doctrines that you'd like for us to discuss on the show, you can contact us on the web.

You can find us at William-Branem.org. For an in-depth look at the dangers of being in these groups, read Weaponized Religion from Laterane to Colonia, Dignidad, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.