Merry Christmas!

Hello and welcome to a very special Christmas episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, and friend James Goad. And together we're discussing the very weird things that preachers say about Christmas and why they say them. James, today is a very special day. I will admit to the audience we've pre-recorded this because right now this very minute I am on the floor with all of my kids and I have just became a kid myself

and I'm tearing through packages and I'm hoping I got all of the goodies that I wanted to get because I'm still a kid at heart. Well, Merry Christmas, John. It's good to be able to say that, you know, being out of the cult and everything and we don't have all this extra garbage floating around. We come to simple things like Christmas and just being able to enjoy them, right?

Right. You know, I feel guilty to a large extent because growing up I had Christmas. My family celebrated Christmas. My mother, my father, my brother, and I we got on the floor just like I am right now. This very minute I'm not doing this podcast and we celebrated Christmas. But there were a large number of people who were in the message cult and it's various splinter groups and, you know, when you really think about it, the latter reign movement as a whole because of its weird mixture of background doctrines which were only skimming the surface of now, all of it was proclaiming that

the Catholic church had invaded Christianity and that the Christian was a Christian holidays. Christmas was a demonic holiday. So there were a large number of kids that, well, I got all of these gifts and I could play with all of these toys as a child. There were a lot of people in the message and in the world, you know, not just in the message cult, but because of its influence in the world that they didn't get to open presents. Yeah. And I remember, you know, being a kid and stuff that I was I was around a minister who openly proclaimed that they didn't celebrate Christmas because they

thought it was too problematic. Now, they couldn't go as far as telling their church. They didn't feel comfortable enough to tell their church. They couldn't celebrate Christmas. But you always had those people who were, uh, just...

Zired to be more like the central figure, which in this case would be more like the pastor figure. So, you know, if the pastors and celebrate church, then I want to be just as holy as the pastor, so I won't celebrate Christmas.

You know, it's just one of those things, but I always did get Christmas in my home. That was always one of those things that my parents would just be like, no, we're doing Christmas this year.

We're not skipping Christmas. Yeah. You know, and I knew people that they would just be openly dogging Christmas, and anybody who celebrated it as pure spawns of Satan, and then what would happen is on Christmas day, they would suddenly have this change of heart, but it had to be planned, right?

You have to go out and buy your presents before Christmas day. But while they're just be rating everybody who's in the world who's, you know, practicing the Christmas holiday and sharing the Christmas spirit, well, then they themselves did it on Christmas day and it's just so, it's hypocritical, but it's worse than that.

They're for the children, they're just warping the minds of the kids because what's right or wrong? Do you practice what you preach or do you not? One of the things that the irony for me after leaving this called, my grandfather behind the pulpit, every single Christmas, I mean, it was like a wax museum in there, man.

You would say the same exact joke every Christmas, and then all of the same exact people who laughed, put this big fake smile on their face and they went, ah, and then they had this fake laugh to the fake joke that he shared every single Christmas.

He would tell how his daughter, they were in the line at a grocery store, and this lady turned around and her, I doubt this even happened, this is grandpa, but this lady apparently in this fictional tale turned around and looked at my aunt and said, are you ready for Santa Claus to bring you your presents?

And my grandpa would stand there and say, and then my daughter, and he gave the daughter's name, looked her straight in the eye and said, you mean as big as you are and as old as you are, you don't know that Santa Claus is not real?

And, you know, the irony of all of this, when I started this research and started this podcast and even working with you, you've seen it too, and the course of the ones that you've released, will put out something that just completely overturns something that William Brasm said as pure fiction, nothing but fiction.

And then we'll have this whole barrage of these emails and comments where somebody has found that some cult pastor has said, well Abraham lied, so it's okay if William Brasm said fictional things because Abraham of the Bible was a liar.

They're preaching the fiction, but then what happens is on Christmas, during the Christmas season, they'll say, and they celebrate fiction as Christmas participants. And that is evil, that is pagan. And they're doing the same thing, the whole rest of the year, man.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's completely retarded. I mean, Christmas is one of those things that, like you said, it's different in different pockets of the movement. You know, you'll be in somewhere, it's not as wrong, or maybe it's just, we begrudgingly celebrate Christmas, but in the others, it's like you said, there's movements where it's just like, you don't celebrate Christmas, because this is a pagan holiday.

And if you do, you are besmirching the very thing that we believe, because we believe such a higher calling of this Christian movement, or however you want to phrase it. I mean, but yeah, and so what you'll find is that people will, sometimes they'll be introduced to the message through a more legalistic, very top-down sort of controlled environment, and they won't be able to celebrate Christmas.

And then they'll be like, well, I still kind of believe the random guy. I still kind of think that this is right, but I think they're a little overboard with all this other stuff.

And then I also think I want to celebrate Christmas with my kids. And then they'll find another church that lets them celebrate Christmas. And they'll be like, okay, we'll see. That's because these guys have it more right.

And then they'll do all this church bouncing to try to find somebody who allows them to be a little bit more free and not as legalistic. And I think that's one of the reasons why there's so many types of message churches out there, is because most of the time, they are all top-down controlled.

And it's usually the temperament of the pastor is usually the temperament of the church and the things that are allowed. So if the pastor kind of allows this, then, you know, and if that's more your flavor, then you can find it over there.

But the problem, the core, it's all still focused on random. And the core is rotten. So everything that comes from that can only be rotten. Oh, yeah. You know, I get accused an awful lot of being crazy by people who were in the cult.

And I'm a child of this, man. I accept it. I wear it as a badge of honor. Yes, I am a little bit, I'm a little bit out there. And I enjoy talking about this weird thing that I grew up in and I enjoy becoming a guinea pig for the world to examine just how wrong it is what they do to the minds of the children.

Because that's how I grew up, right? And, you know, I'm a result of what you've described because I went to several different churches. And it was like playing mental tug of war with your mind as a child.

You've got one group that you can't do. Chris. You got this other group that you can, but we're not going to do presence because that's evil and a Christmas car. I mean, no matter what it is, if you go to a different church in this called, you're not going to find two churches that are in agreement.

No where they don't exist. I can assure you. And so for a kid, what it results in is you grow up and you do something and if you're in one of these churches, they tell you, okay, you've just committed the ultimate sin because you did this thing.

But I was in this other church where they did it. And where do you go? My favorite Christmas movie, and to the audience, I'm sure James is seeing it because he's a nerd like me.

But if you're in the audience and you've never seen a Christmas story, the one where Ralphie sticks his tongue to the flagpole and freezes it, it is by far my favorite Christmas movie by far.

I relate to every single aspect of this movie except the leg lamp. My dad would never have done that. But in this movie, they've got this furnace down in the basement that is just giving them fits.

And the father goes down and you can hear through the vent work. He's just cussing. And they don't say the words. And then after this, he gets in some sort of an altercation with one of his friends, Ralphie does the boy.

And then he says it and he says one of the things that his dad says. And his mother takes him and washes his mouth out with soap immediately. And where did you learn this thing, Ralphie?

And Ralphie didn't want to say that his father did it. So he said that it was one of his friends. And then his mother immediately calls up the mother of the friend and say, do you know what your son just said?

And Ralphie has said, now my dad, he was, I became quite a connoisseur of soap, he says. And he talks about it. And he says my father, whenever he's working on the furnace, he says all of these things.

And then I said, you know, I got the story slightly wrong, he was working on the car. He says, and then I said the mother of all cuss words, it was the F word.

So the mother calls up the friend and the friend's parent and, do you know what your son just said? He said and then she, they don't say it, but apparently the mother said the F word.

And you hear them yanking the kid out and just beating the behind of the kid. Well, that's what we grew up in, man. If you were a child who went from church to church to church, called church in this movement, there's no way to live according to all of the various rules and regulations because you'll be in church A.

And they tell you that if you're a female, Open sandals is wrong. If you wear open sandals You are sex symbols to the world and then you go to this other one and they're not so Whenever they cross pollinate will hey, I didn't know that showing my toe was gonna turn a guy on That's how weird this thing is man, and I

Don't even know where to begin right, but I've all this to say I relate to Ralphie because he's he was in this position where He couldn't really say where he heard it because it would have you know put his father in this weird place Well, I can't really say that I went to this other church and that other pastor who's well respected in this cult told me I could do X Y and Z and he and his family do it

Yeah It's it's so silly because there's there's so many things that you know And Christmas is just one of the many examples of all the things that are just so wrong and like you said when you when you bounce around between the different churches inside the movement It depends on which version of the stage persona the pastor likes more because that's the one he's gonna read more the quotes from You know, and so you know I'm praying to him at all these he waffled back and forth so many times between let alone Am I a prophet am I not a prophet? I mean that that's that's a deep one to research

but You know just even on the stuff of Christmas, you know, and even like you know rant and rave about Christmas and how it is a pagan holiday and then come to find out he had a Christmas tree in his own home You know and so it depends on the pastor and which which they pick and choose is kind of how they kind of tailor the sermons as they come across their own pulpit Oh, yeah, my family grew up with the Brannum family and it wasn't just Christmas trees that they had man They had televisions in every room and I'm sure you remember the version of the cult that existed before the sun stick over and

But turn it turn before it turned into a new cult of personality Television was the most evil thing that you could have or look at or see we were one step away from the Amish man I'm never forget When I married my wife she and her family were big They're big influencers in the Amish community in Where they lived in Ohio they they were one of the families that helped the Amish and carried them around in cars etc. So when I first got married I got to go see a bunch of Amish people and the most interesting thing that I saw

I'll never forget it to the day I die, man We're driving to this Walmart and here's this you know, there's cars cars trucks pick up trucks four by fours and Amish buggy in a parking lot in Walmart and in the parking space and Walk it. That's kind of cool well Me being a nerd when I go into Walmart the first thing that I head for is the electronic section And I go back and they've got that you don't Walmart. They they big wall of televisions, televisions going up for days.

Well, here's this big wall of televisions, and I'm walking past the Amish ladies pushing their buggies and getting their, you know, their non-sensful goods at Walmart, the things that they can't have. And then I go back to the electronics and there's this whole line of Amish kids.

I'm talking, there's probably, I don't know, 15 or 20. Stand in there, just staring at it like this. They've never seen a television, apparently, and they, they're watching TV, and I stood there and watched it was like cartoon, you know, and I felt really sad for them because that was another thing for me.

I was allowed to watch cartoons whenever I was a kid. My father flipped flopped, but there were periods of time when he had a TV and periods of time when we would bust him with a ball bat or shotgun or whatever.

But I had seen cartoons, and I know that feeling that they had, but I had also been to the homes of cult members where their kids weren't allowed to, and if they ever came to our house and watched our television, they stood there just like the Amish kids did.

And all of this to say, man, Christmas is this weird, weird thing because you've got so many weird rules, and none of them are in alignment because there are no two message cult churches in agreement with each other.

Right, and speaking of weird rules, there is a one weird rule that does stand out when you start examining a lot of the churches and stuff, and the things that they're saying about in a round Christmas.

And one of the things is you cannot teach the kids to believe in Santa Claus. At all, full stop, Santa Claus is wrong. And, you know, the ways in which they twist it, is very, very fascinating.

And let's play this first clip here, and then we'll dig in a little further. You'd be surprised that people still believe in Santa Claus. You'd be surprised that adults that believe in Santa Claus.

We always wondered why would Brother Ram do that and hurt the kids' feelings. He said, never teach him that. He says, when they get older, he said, they'll wonder why you told him that, and that's false, why, how do I believe there's a Jesus?

So what you do, you feed that into that little mind, and that little mind conscious fine, it settles down in their subconscious, that there's a Santa Claus, and Santa Claus brought this, and Santa Claus did this, and Santa Claus did this.

You have fed that child alive. Hello? Apparently most of y'all still believe in Santa Claus. Well, brother, it's just for the kids, and you don't realize what you're doing. It makes an imprint on the kids when they're small.

I proved it to you by the sites and medical sites itself, and they do that over and over for years and years and years, and then the kid realizes there isn't a Santa Claus.

My mom undated like you said we're brother. We just didn't mean to do that. We were just trying to protect them You wouldn't protect them. You're homin' them You're lying Yeah, James this goes back to my original point. We have called out I've actually lost count. It is well into the hundreds. It's not the tens or The teens well into the hundreds of things that De-Colt leader William Branham the central figure of the message called the laddering splinter groups, etc blatantly lied about blatantly lied about and We you and I have already examined ministers who they know it and they're covering it up

They know he's blatantly lied about it. So let's just reverse this question They're saying Santa Claus is fiction and we could get into the history of St. Nicholas and We could show them how That's a little bit buffoonery, but let's give them that and let's say that okay, it's fiction and we're teaching fiction The argument is that by teaching fiction the children will grow up and they'll reject God so On my wall Millennium Falcon it's fiction Does watching Star Wars mean that you're going to grow up and reject God because you enjoy fiction?

Growing up I read the Hardy Boys books. I wasn't there's a long period of time I was not allowed to watch television. I read every Louis Lamore book that existed and most people probably do not know this He wrote a science fiction book that was pretty good. I read all of that. Does that mean I'm going to reject God because I like the fiction I read Hardy Boys I read Nancy Drew Even though that was usually for girls. I enjoyed it because it was actually a good story. I Enjoy fiction I growing up. I did not like history, which is interesting, but I did enjoy

Fiction I used to make bows and arrows and play with them as a kid playing Robin Hood as did most of these ministers Robin Hood the whole story's fiction, you know, there were elements that were true But the vast majority of that story's fiction But the Disney cartoon is true, but the Disney cartoon is true Especially whenever they're they're doing the wizard's duel that that part is true But the argument still stands they're claiming that fiction will make you Abandoned God and yet they've already admitted many of them not all but Probably this point of majority have admitted that William Bram himself was using fiction to attract people to the message

And that's the primary argument. It's okay that he lied because look what it did His lies made all of the people come to the message and then That was the bait on the hook

meant to God. So the their argument, their very argument is that the bait that the bait William Brannem used to reel the people in through the laddering revivals was fiction, a proven fiction beyond the shadow of it out. And that's okay. Now, I'm going to reverse the question, will they reject God because they learned that William Brannem was fiction?

I can give you probably 50 people that I've talked to who have left Christianity because of William Brannem's fiction. Once they learn, they're like, well, this isn't real. None of it's real. I can, you know, I can back up what I'm saying. But let's just say for the sake of the argument that, you know, Santa Claus, let's reverse the question and pose it to them and see how many responses we get. It's so silly because, you know, this is something that you run across a lot in these fundamentalist movements is that there's all these situations where it's presented as though we're protecting the children. And

so, and you're putting this in front of the parents being like, if you or a good parent, you will want to protect the kids. And so, and you want to raise them in a good, godly home and give them good, godly values. So therefore, teaching them about Santa Claus will cause them to reject those values that you're trying to instill in them. I mean, that's a great boogie man to try to control and manipulate people. But, you know, and I know in my home, I know that this influence was, was there. And I was from very young age. I was pulled

aside and been like, all right, by the way, the Santa Claus thing is not real. So I don't really have, I don't really have the perspective of someone who, who had these sorts of ideas for a long period of time. I do remember encountering kids at school that were, you know, in like second and third grade, and they would be talking about Santa Claus and they'd be so excited. And I'd be like, you know, Santa Claus isn't real, right? And they would just look at me being like, I had just hurt their dog or something like that. Like, I

had mortally wounded them. And in my view, I thought I was helping them. But they looked at me like I was the most evil person in the entire world for destroying their fiction. You know, and it's one of those things that they're so, they're so little credit given to kids in these movements. Because kids see and hear a lot more than people even realize a lot of times. And they pick up on things and they can handle a lot more than they're, than they're given credit for, you know. And it's not, at the end of the day, I don't

see a problem with, if you choose to let your kids believe in Santa Claus for a little while and join in the fiction together, I don't see it any different than enjoying a Star Wars and saying, hey, that was some good fiction or, you know, it's a communal storytelling that we're enjoying together. It's, you know, it can be fun.

But this whole boogeyman, if they're going to reject God later because you lied to him about Santa Claus, that's just below me. Yeah. And, you know, in the end, it's sort of like a strawman argument because the Christmas spirit, the, now I will admit that they have over commercialized things, but the true Christmas spirit of sharing gifts and loving one another, say, you know, it is, it is built on themes of fiction, I'll give them that.

But the concept, the message that the fiction presents is that we need to be kind to one another. We need to love one another. We need to be more willing to give than to receive.

They're all really good themes and you'll find them all in the Bible. And so the argument that is presented in these cults is that because it's fiction, everything that it's built on also must therefore be fiction and that they're arguing that this is more important than Jesus Christ.

That's a strawman argument, it's not true. I'm a child of the 80s and during the times in which I was allowed to watch television, there were, you know, in the 80s cartoons, they would have this wonderful cartoon that I still watch today, I'll admit it.

And at the end, at the end, the main character of the cartoon would come and sit down with children and say, and the moral of the story today is children and they'll tell you the moral of the story and it might be, it's a very bad thing to lie and people, a lie can build to another lie and people can become hurt or stealing is wrong or being unkind to others is not a good thing to do.

There were really, really good morals in the cartoons of the 80s and more than that, they would explicitly tell you, now this is the theme of this cartoon and we should be good people, right?

Now where are the objects of worship? No. Is Santa Claus an object of worship? No. I mean, in all things being equal, it is the same exact thing, but they raised the strawman argument that because the holiday was meant to celebrate Jesus and they have built these fictional, morally good stories to help people to enjoy the holidays, that must be a religion and therefore a false religion and therefore the Catholic Church and therefore Doomsday and therefore the world is going to explode.

Yeah, it is just silly when you get down to it because, you know, there's so many things that we've examined in this movement that just hurt children, you know, and these kids are around other kids, you know, as much as they're isolated in a lot of times, they're still usually a round of...

kids, whether it's other family members that aren't in the in the group and stuff, and they see these things and they see kids partaking in things that to them seem extremely harmless. And for most times it is harmless.

It's just, you know, we're giving presents and we're having fun and we're eating food and we're coming together. And the Santa Claus stuff and all that stuff, it's like a wallpaper, a decoration around the thing.

It's like in the periphery. It's a fun little thing to, fun little story to tell around the Christmas thing, but it's not like for most people, it's on the periphery, it's not so much a part of this is that thing that, you know, so even the whole framing of it is completely problematic with how they try to frame it to create the bogeyman.

But yeah, the sad thing about a lot of this is that a lot of it, in the fallout, the children get hurt the most. And it's so sad because they see normal kids and they're like, why can't I just be normal like those other kids?

And it's sad. Yeah. And you know, it is really bad for the children. I'm not even going to question that, but it's also harmful for the adults because as in the same way that it warps the minds of the kids, it warps the minds of the adults.

And I can say that with assurance because I have a family member, not going to mention his name, but his father was a well-respected person in the cult. People from coast to coast knew his father, not going to give his name.

But Christmas became for parents in this movement, this weird thing, a, you're not supposed to do it. We're supposed to condemn it, b, we're supposed to be very vocal in condemning it, c, everyone who's in the cult elite, which this family was, is going to do it anyway, b, when we do it as parents who are cult elite, we have to do it better than everybody else does for their kids so that we can become a status symbol and c, our heads are screwed up.

I'll just put it like that because there's no better way to describe this. My very close family member, every Christmas morning, he, he told me this years later, but he would open up all of these gifts and he got a lot of wonderful, wonderful gifts, which were, you know, some of them expensive, right?

And he would open them up and then he said, John, I would play with this toy a, toy b, toy c and, and I would wake up the next morning and every one of them would be gone except for one.

And I like, weird, all my toys go and he said, my, what my father was doing is he was watching to see which one I played with the most because that must be the best one.

And he had to have as a status symbol, he had to have the best one for his, for his public damage. That's all it really was. And the father would go return all of the ones that weren't played with as much.

And so all of his toys didn't disappear. I'm laughing, but it's absurd. That's why I'm laughing, it's really sad. It's really sad because the family member needed therapy for this, my friend, who his father did this, it was awful.

And it led him to very, very, very dark places, alcoholism, things that, you know, I know they condemn people who drink alcohol too. Well, they're not telling you that they are the ones who are driving people to drinking in this thing.

It's awful. So it warps the minds of the people, but worse than that, in doing so, it makes them devalue their children. Because if a parent truly values the child and the child is aware that every kid and the whole nation is gonna open up presents except for them, and they get devalued.

The parents don't care about them. They care more about this false religion that they have to know some of these things are false. I have well-respected family members on the other side whose parents devalued them to the extent, they would try to force them to get religion and lock them into burning, scorching hot travel trailers during the heat of the summer to watch them burn on the insides, burn for Jesus, it's horrific what they did.

It was torture. There's pure plain and simple, it was torture. And how does that relate to a Christmas episode? You ask, what they're doing to the minds of the adults is so bad. The Christmas is just one example of it, but they warp your minds in such a way where you devalue the family unit, the family structure whereas the whole rest of the world is being taught through admittedly some portions of fiction that it's a good thing to love each other for family to come together for celebration and feast of the birth of Jesus Christ,

the founder of our religion, to being able to give and give even more than you want to receive. Those are good themes, right? Versus these other themes that cause parents to torture their children.

And I've seen it firsthand, they have tortured children. That's the Christmas message and all this to say after leaving James, I'm glad that I have left this horrific thing that warped the minds of the people.

100%. So I guess continuing on with that theme of warping the minds, I guess we should get into Christmas trees.

So let's check out this next clip here. We got a minister that's talking about how sinful Christmas trees can be. So let's roll the tape. Remember because traditions aren't, they're just a shadow of Christ.

Any tradition you have. It's just a shadow of Christ like brother Adam putting up a christmas tree Brother Adam wasn't sinning when he put up a christmas tree The tree reminded him of Christ because Christ is a tree Amen on the know you But if you put up that tree thinking about Santa Claus. Well, yeah, that's a sin. Let's give him saint saint in there That's worshipping an idol Right, it's not even real. It's a lie and God's not into lies With brother Adam set up his tree. You know when he was worshipping Jesus and you know

Enjoying just some family time and excited to you know worship and give his president or children. Yes, there's nothing wrong with that It's just a liberty. It's just a tradition But the reality is that Christ is here today as the real christmas present And you get the christmas present. Oh, thanks giving night

What's so funny about this clip is how The minister is trying to renegotiate the very fact that Brandon himself had a christmas tree You know because this is something you just can't get around you especially when you're trying to demonize a christmas tree and so How he tries to make it fit is if If you have the christmas tree and you think of Santa Claus, you're in sin if you have the christmas tree and you think of Christ You're you're not in sin It's it's just so silly It's just a christmas tree You know, it's it's it's it's ridiculous and you know and there's so much

said about the the paganism and all these sorts of things and and there are very There are if you if you study a lot of a lot of rituals and a lot of You know things that people do ritualistically around certain movements There is very few that haven't been influenced by anything especially if you got something that goes back thousands of years It's very hard to find something that's pure that goes all the way back and it's been the same After every iteration that it's gone through there's always been changes and there's always been things that people have had to do to keep

To keep the rituals alive and keep them going and move them for generation and generation And there's nothing to be said that I mean, you know, even if yeah, you'll give them that say Christmas started as the most pagan of Pagans of things that you know the very act of having a christmas tree in your home Doesn't mean that say a pagan did a thing a pagan did a thing You are now no longer able to do a thing if a pagan breeze you are now No, I'm able to breathe because a pagan breeze. It's it's ridiculous. Yeah

Well and more to the point the The things that we celebrate that have been celebrated for millennia They have become part of tradition and this whole movement was to try to buck the system of What people considered tradition because if you could turn a person against that You could isolate them you could turn them against their neighbor. That's that's really all this is a about. Because the things of tradition were often for celebrations. You know, Christmas is celebrated back during, you know, you can go far back as you want to look. It is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. There's a lot of arguments as to when the birth of Jesus

Christ was, but in the end, it was to celebrate the founder of our religion. Well, apply that to today, right? A lot of these cult members still avoid celebrations in general because of that fact, they've been trained to avoid tradition as though tradition is evil. But new traditions that are emerging that aren't yet condemned by the group, they don't know they're supposed to be evil, such as the farmer's market. A lot of the things that people celebrate are built upon the summer winter solstice and the harvests and all of the, you know, people of the ancient world didn't have televisions in things like this. So when

everybody bring in the crops and you had all of this wonderful food that you can now eat and gorge yourself before the food goes rotten, they'd have all these feasts. Well, the farmer's market is in a sense the same thing. It's once all of the crops are gathered and people come together and you've got the celebrations where they're frying Oreos and making your cholesterol go through the roof. Well, how is that spiritual? How does that relate back to Jesus?

Are you thinking about Christ or are you thinking about the farmer's market? The problem is that they don't understand the at its core that the only reason why this exists in the message and splinter groups was to try to divide the body of Christ and sever them from other Christians.

And they became severed and the irony, I remember this irony the first time I went to a farmer's market with my wife because my family never went. I went and I saw message people there and we would, you know, have a good time. But then I would see all these other people that were supposed to be the cannon fodder. I was trained mentally to believe that those people, I should, I'm better than them. And so I wasn't even really celebrating with them even though I was at their own feast in their own temples, not temples, but you get what I'm saying. Right. And the whole thing is exactly

the same thing that they're condemning. It's just a new tradition that is emerging. And the irony of it all is that most of the people who are in these new traditions have a better concept of the things that Christmas portrays the coming together, loving one another, being kind to our neighbor. These were very kind and friendly people in the farmer's market. So what is giving you the better message, the one that we have now proven as a message of hate?

or the one that is the message of goodness and togetherness and be joy, peaceful, loving, caring. Yeah. Yeah. It's it once again goes to show how destructive these things can be where you're putting all these things in people's mind where they're they're so and the other thing too is that one thing you have to keep in mind when you're examining the message and splinter groups and things like it is that these are destructive end of day movements. Everything you do every action you take inside the the movement and everything that you're being taught is like this is what you want

to do to avoid destruction. So the very thing like that's always behind everything these ministers say and you know where sometimes they'll be like well they kind of seem like there's a little out here yeah but there's also this destruction of you better be sure brother because if you're wrong God help you you know and it's ee it's just it's just one of those things that kind of can get overlooked sometimes when we're not directly looking at at some of this stuff but yeah that's that's always there and it's always lurking behind and it's in the back of people's minds as

they're listening to sermons like this. You know coming back to the Christmas we've went all over the place coming back to our Christmas message for our Christmas podcast episode. You know one of the reasons why that they've done this as we have examined this thing was deeply deeply rooted in white supremacy and they were trying to turn the people against the Catholic Church because that was one of the core concepts of what was related to white supremacy in the in the clan agenda.

If you were a clansman you had to believe that the Catholics were invading the nation that the Jews were invading the nation that the blacks were rising up to join the Catholics and the Jews that are invading the nation. I'm laughing but that's it's horrific and that's what it is.

So the turning you against Christmas they're turning you against the very core concepts that this nation was built upon which is a Christian nation. I mean if you go back to the early days there were that's the reason why the nation exists. They wanted freedom for that to to worship in the way in which that they wanted to away from the you know the hierarchy of the English English Church. So in doing so what they have done is they've created these notions where there are strong lines in the sand and one of them is just simply the dates. They try to put it back to

the worship of the Catholics and the Catholics merging of Christianity with the worship of the Sun God and they're trying to they're trying to basically say that if you're celebrating Christmas you're worshiping the Sun God and what they're not telling you is below all of that you had worship of the pyramids which William Brandham said, was a Bible, it's so purpose, James, what's to point to the sun, God?

It's so, it's so crazy because you know, there's all these layers of all this sort of stuff with the pyramids and everything that that these ministers are forced to, they're forced to keep in the cannon because the central figure said, this is part of the cannon in which we believe this is part of our special message. And so, yeah, when they go and attack certain things like all these other pagan things, but then they're literally incorporating the pyramids into their cannon of this is a Bible. And so, this is something that God or Christian and God has some sort of say in,

is very interesting and very problematic in a lot of ways, especially when you start digging into looking with the Egyptians and the pyramids and all that stuff, what that stuff symbolizes and what that stuff's all about. It's very, not very compatible with Christian, uh, Christianity, as a whole. So, yeah, that's interesting. But that, but that pagan thing since the minister, since the, since the prophet said that it's, uh, it's part of our, it's the, what the second Bible or whatever that it's, it's been out part of our, our, our cannon is, is, is insane. But yeah, now it's in,

and then you go into the whole Catholic thing. Man, I can remember growing up in, in the message church and I thought Catholics were the most evil thing in the entire world. And it is, now I look back at it and go, it's so silly that I was able to think that way about Catholics. I mean, it's, when I was taught, day in and day out, there was always this thing set about Catholics. There was always this thing is that they were some evil. They were, you know, they were, they were so evil because they are under a demonic sort of influence because they're, they're, they've,

they've completely, you know, misunderstood and misused scripture and the Bible and the whole meaning of, of Christianity. And then the irony of just walking away from what you believe. And you're like, Oh, we were really just talking about ourselves the entire time. Yeah. It's just so wrong. And I mean, going back to the date, they, they want to tell you that it wasn't on December 25th. And you know, I don't, I don't celebrate Christmas because it's the 25th. I don't break Christmas because Jesus was born and came to the earth. And that's the reason for Christmas,

right? I could care less if it's on the 25th, the 26th or December, September. I don't care, right? That's a lot of really good preamble to let us into this next clip here. So yeah, this is, this is a minister talking about Christmas and the role of Christmas in Christ and also the role of the Catholic Church. So, let's roll the tape. Brother Bram had a Christmas tree too.

How many knew that? But I don't think he, He went all out to decorate the tree. Well, I wasn't there, so. But it's just, I'm not saying that if you've got a tree, tomorrow at 10 tonight, you throw it out the doors there.

But they really start sinking. Seriously, if you look, if you put more emphasis on the tree and what it is, you got your focus in the wrong place. First of all, December 25th is not Jesus' birthday.

It was in October sometimes. While some listening on the net, well, what you mean in September, it's been like that for, yeah, the Catholic Church changed it because it was convenient for these other celebrations that they were having at the same, the pagans were having at the same time, so they introduced it on December 25th.

If Jesus died on Calvary in April, and he was a half a year in his birthday, that means six months. Six months from April brings you where? Christmas, December 25th, nonsense. How about everybody, does it?

Well, we know the truth. There's not gonna be no Christmas trees in heaven or the millennium. If you like those things, enjoy it now because they ain't gonna happen in the millennium. So James, I'm going to again take what was said and then reverse it and then just simply ask the question.

So let's give them this. Let's say Christmas wasn't on December 25th. Let's say that it depends on which message sacked your hand as to what month it is. They're all over the place, but say it's April, say whatever it is, let's give them that.

Let's say it's on this date. My family celebrates Christmas because it is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Again, we don't care the month, we don't care the day. That's just when the rest of the world celebrates and we're gonna join in the celebration.

Let's give them this though. Let's say that's the wrong date and let's even give them that they don't want to celebrate with the rest of the world because they're isolationists. Let's give them that.

Okay, James, tell me what is the month and the day that people in the message celebrate the birth of Jesus that don't celebrate the birth of Jesus on Christmas December 25th? What day is it?

Well, John, if they don't celebrate Christmas, how can they celebrate? Well, that's the problem, James. They're telling you that you cannot celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th because that's pagan. But then they don't give you the date to celebrate.

So in effect, rather than celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, they condemn those who do celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and then they themselves aren't celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. Why did they not just pick a day and say, Okay, on, I don't know, June 24th, we're going to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and that's our Christ day.

They're not doing this. One of the things that... that you don't do a lot in groups, like this is you don't really celebrate. There's not a lot of celebration that goes on in these things.

I mean, sometimes you'll have some groups that have like their little festivals around the fall time and things like that. But for the most part, the entire thing is focused on the end of days.

It's like this is what we're focused on. We're not really focused on celebrating and giving gifts because our focus needs to be on, we need to get in, we need to be listening to these tapes, these MP3s, we need to be reading these books because it's just any day now.

And so if you're focused on Christmas, brother, you're actually focused on the wrong thing spiritually. Right, and you know, to a child, we're going back to what we said earlier to the themes. It just warps the minds of the children because it betrays their trust.

If you're not giving them the alternative and you're not following things out to their logical conclusion, there are children who are, like you said, they're pretty smart. In fact, there are some of the children who are smarter than their parents, unfortunately.

But you know, you tell a kid, you can't celebrate, we're not going to give you the presents like all of your friends. We're not going to celebrate and be joyful and be happy on this day like all of your friends because that's the wrong day.

Well, there are children like myself included who fortunately was allowed to have Christmas. There are children like myself who have analytical minds and they'll say, wait a minute, if we can't celebrate on Christmas day, well, what day is it?

And then it turns into this thing of trust. You begin not to even trust your parents or the minister because they're not telling you the whole story. And if they're not telling you the whole story, James, then what are they hiding?

Yeah, and it's so crazy because there's so many problems with all this stuff and the way Christmas is handled and through many of these different splinter groups. And if some take the approach that it's just scripturally wrong or maybe we just shouldn't do it, some will try to get the Boogeyman involved is try to make this more spiritual or supernatural as to why God may be influencing the things that they're saying in this very moment.

And this is another way in which things can be very destruction and very harmful around some of the messaging around Christmas. But yeah, let's take a look at this next clip. I mentioned Disney World and I said, I'm not giving my money to a place that is ungodly and it is.

Do you realize that it's filled with nothing but real lies? You say, well, it's just children's stuff. Well, then do you tell your children that Santa Claus is real? Because he's not. Now, if your children are here tonight and they think that Santa Claus is real, you're not gonna like me.

But there's no such thing as Santa Claus. I believe we should teach our children right from the beginning. Because one day they're going to look at you and expect you to tell them the truth.

And they might not know if you are because you know what, Mom and Dad, you told me there was a Santa Claus and there wasn't. So how do I know when you're telling me the truth?

If you tell them the truth from day one, they'll always know. This minister is making my exact point for me, James. If you can't tell them the truth, then how are they going to trust you later?

Well, that's the problem. They're not telling you the truth. They're not telling you the whole truth. I'll never forget one of the first sermons I heard from a non-cult minister after we left the cult was on the subject of white lies. And it cut me to the core, having been in the cult elite because we had this way of trying to misrepresent the truth while still telling the truth and lead the people to believe the thing that was not true.

My grandfather, the head of the head church, had this voice message on his answering machine that it said, I'm unable to take your call right now. If I can't get back to you now, what's a good time to get back with you later?

And I'll never forget him laughing and joking with my father about this and me as a kid hearing this and thinking logically. He says, now you notice, Mike, I never really said that I was going to call them back because I said it in such a way that I don't have to call them back and I'm not lying to them.

Well, as a kid, man, I'm thinking out to the logical conclusion, well, what about what you're saying behind a pulpit, man?

If you're not telling the whole truth in your answering machine, then how can I trust anything that you say behind the pulpit? Now, I didn't take it that far because I did trust my grandfather, but later on in life, as I start to realize that my grandfather was a big part about spreading the lie.

He was a big part of this without him. I don't know that it could have became what it did. And he was lying through his teeth, unfortunately, sadly, lying through his teeth. Well, I am an exact representation of what this minister is saying.

And if all the clips that you've played, I'm going to say, I agree with this minister in one point. If they lie to us, and we find out that they lie, then how can I trust anything else that they say?

And we've pieced together hundreds, hundreds of lies, that all of these men, they know their lies. They have, I'm not supposed to know about it, but I'm privy to the fact that ministers actually go to other countries and hold private conventions to try to discuss how to combat the fact that the people are now aware of the lies.

I'm not going to tell you how I know. this, but so if they're doing this, they're maybe the parents are too brainwashed to pick it up, but I guarantee you that there are kids who aren't yet to the level of brainwashing that their parents are.

They're going to pick up really quickly that these guys are not telling the whole truth. And then the ones who have minds like mine who want to know the answers, they're going to start saying, well, what else are they hiding?

Why can't I trust this minister? Why is he being like this? So I'm going to say, James, as a Christmas gift to this minister, I'm going to say I agree with him on that point.

If you lie to me, yeah, I'm going to have a hard time trusting you. Yeah. And the other thing, too, that's not really being said here is there, there's a difference between lying or sharing in a story together with your kids for the sake of having fun and things like that.

There's another thing lying to your kids about their salvation, you know, hell, all these, yeah, there's a wide cast in between these two things that we're talking about here. Santa Claus is the least of the problems when it comes to everything else that's going on and a lot of the stuff that we have examined here.

It is. And to wrap this up on a lighter note, after giving away my Christmas gift to this minister, I woke up to all of this. I realized that, yeah, what they fed me was a lie, it's, you know, one step away from what a horse produces out of his back end.

I'll say that nicely as my second Christmas gift and not use the word that I'm thinking. One step away from that. But to be honest, I forgive them all because many of them can't help with themselves.

They've been in this thing and think of, think of the position they're in. Some of them haven't yet woken up, but many of them have. And they've woken like this one that we examined where he knew William Brandham had a Christmas tree when likely he himself and I guarantee you 90% of the rest of the message cult ministers preached heavily against Christmas trees.

Well now they're waking up and oh my gosh, he had one and he was talking through the back of his mouth. Well, think of the position that that puts them. They have taught false doctrine for decades.

And as one former ex cult, you know, he's an ex cult minister, he said, you can't turn the ship on a dime. And that means, think of these men who have, they've dug their own graves.

They've said things that are pure fiction that have no place in in a Christian church. For decades, they've dug their own graves and they're standing in it, still shuffling the dirt out and they can't get out.

They're trapped in this grave that they've created. And I wish I could give a gift that I don't have and that's to help them all and hope that their church is in it. help lead them out of this thing, because the moment that a minister stands up and say, I apologize to you.

Everything that I've said for the last 50 years has been about as truthful as believing in Santa Claus. Some of them have done this. What does their church do? In most cases, their church has completely cut them off and they say, okay, he's an apostate.

Let's get somebody else who will preach the apostate doctrine. That's the position these guys are in. I wish I could give them that gift, and unfortunately, James, I'm not able, but hopefully there's a way that they could.

We hope you've enjoyed our Christmas special podcast today and if you have weird doctrines that you'd like for us to discuss on the show, you can contact us on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org.

And from our house to yours, Mary Christmas. You can find us at William-Branum.org. You can find us at William-Branum.org. You can find us at William-Branum.org.