Our Stories: An Interview With Leslie Wells

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest Leslie Wells, former member of the message. Leslie it's so good to see you in person. This is the first time we've actually seen each other. We've talked over the phone a few times but we have spoken through the internet in all of the various comments that you've left for I don't know how long it's been several months and it's good to see your face

and I'm glad that you decided to do this and tell other people about the message. Thanks John. I'm really excited to be here. I absolutely love your channel and I feel like I know so much more about the message because of your channel than I ever did when I was in it. It's so funny. I know more about the things that we were supposed to know after leaving and I did while I was in it and you think you're so heavenly and so devout while you're in it because you listen to these recordings and these sermons and I had the entire collection growing up.

So I listened to all the sermons but there's this weird thing where when you're in it and you're being manipulated, your mind is being manipulated, you listen to it but you really don't think about what it is you're hearing and then after you leave you're like oh my gosh what in the world was I in?

Exactly I know it's the manipulation and and I think part of the reason it's so hard to know exactly what William Ranham said before it became computerized is because he contradicted himself constantly in all different sermons. There's no like one place where you can go to find everything he said about marriage or everything he said about divorce. It's like it's scattered throughout all these over a thousand sermons so it's really hard to know everything he said so he contradicted himself constantly and we didn't even notice it. It's honestly it's like a choose your own adventure religion. Whatever

you want you can you can almost find something where he's gonna say yes go believe this or do this and it'll be the polar opposite than when he said the last time. I know and then you know it's it's hard to believe that I I really said he did I mean listen to it so I read the books I took notes all this stuff I really wanted to learn the message and How, I mean, there's so much in it that I've learned from you that I know there because you've shown us the quotes, you're not just telling us it's there.

And how did I not know that stuff was there, but I did it. Yeah, it's unbelievable. So you were in the message for quite a while. Maybe if you could tell everybody the, some of your background of being in it, what was it like being in the message?

Well, I joined the message when I was 16. I was not raising the message. And I didn't leave until I was 44. And so when I joined it, I was a teenage girl. And when I left it, I had left my husband the year before, my ex-husband, and I had a daughter.

So it was kind of like, you know, it varied a lot over the time. But I wasn't born, like I said, I joined it when I was 16. I was not raised in the message, and I think that helped me a lot.

I was not indoctrinated, like from my best in it, you know what I mean? And so when I was 16, I was a irregular American teenage girl. I wore blue jeans every day that my mom let me.

If we're going to funeral or wedding or baby shower, she did not let me. But other than that, I wore blue jeans. And I love going to movies. I love rock and roll. We watched TV all the time.

We're just regular normal American family, and I had a big family. But when I was, I was a real mess when I was a teenager. Lots of teenage angst, like through the roof, and you know, I had a real bad attitude towards my parents.

And I didn't really talk to them about important things. And so when I was 15, I fell in love, first time, and when I was 16, he dumped me. And so I just wanted to die every night when I went to bed.

I just said, I hope I don't wake up. I didn't have any plans on killing myself. I wanted somebody else to do that, just do it in my sleep while I don't know about it.

I didn't want to wake up. But of course, you know, I was at least 16. So everything was like way overgrown and ties. And my best friend, since the time I was 13, was actually raised from the message.

But I knew she had a strange religion, but I didn't know much about it. But then one of the things the guy who dumped me told me over and over right before he broke up with me was to read the Bible.

So I was reading the Bible, and like I started reading Genesis and so did I. I don't even know what this means. And I had gone to Baptist churches. It's a really scary one especially.

Oh, but one thing, I was not raised in a Christian home. I was just raised in a home where religion wasn't really important. And we didn't go to church, we didn't pray, we didn't read the Bible, and we didn't have any other religion either.

It was just we were not a religious family. But anyway, um, so I, but I had gone with some scary Baptist churches. This one I was a child and so my best friend called me and she, we started talking about the Bible and she showed me all this stuff that I had no idea was in there like that women aren't supposed to wear pants and that you're not supposed to cut your hair.

And like she had the most beautiful clothes and, um, and she had long beautiful hair which I had long hair back then. I mean, this is the seventies and a lot of girls had long hair.

My hair was long when it was trimmed and, um, so anyway, we started talking about the Bible and she showed me all these different things. I'm like, how does she know all this stuff?

You know, and then, um, the thing that it's so funny what really hooked me was that, um, she showed me in the Bible where the Magi did not go to the manger with the newborn Jesus.

They went to the house to the young child. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is wow. Nobody in the whole wide world has ever snows this. Like, I was spoken with so that I'm not so naive. It's crazy. Of course I was. I was 16. But anyway, I thought, you know, every painting shows the Magi with the shepherds at the manger.

Every time people put a manger scene in their yard, you know, they've got the three kings of the Magi or whatever you want to call them in their yard. Every song like with three kings, you know, I'm like, this guy is the only person in the whole world who has ever known that the Bible says this.

I must follow this man. And that was the reason. So since we phone, I went in my room. I got a guard up to some garbage bags in there. And I put all my sinful clothes in there.

And I had about three garbage bags because all my blue jeans, all my shorts, my halted tops, my tank tops, all the t-shirts I wore with my jeans, my sneakers, which I would never back then wear with a dress, which I did years later.

But anyway, everything that went with wearing jeans went in the bag. And I had two outfits left in my closet. So you were literally recruited over Christmas. Yes, exactly. Oh, this is a very good time for us to talk about that. Yeah, Christmas. Exactly.

Well, I drugged the bags into the kitchen and my mom was cooking dinner. And my mom came to take these to Big Will. And she's like, what's in there? And I told her, you know, all my clothes.

She's like, what? No, not yet. I'm like, well, I'm never going to wear them again. And so she's like, you know, what am I going to do? It was dark. And so I'm going to bottom of your closet because she was positive.

was a phase and they would never sick would want to be in a group like this because it's totally different than how I normally lived and how I loved to live. But she knew my best friend was in it and she just thought it was a phase.

Anyway, my friend was, you know, my best friend that I just want to do what she was doing and now we joke about the 28-year-long phase that I was in, you know, but yeah.

Yeah, that's quite a phase. Yeah, exactly. Kind of a long phase. And being in it that long, you have seen things that there are a lot of people who joined and they, you know, they were in it five years or whatever, but somebody who's in it for that long, you were in it long enough to watch it more often change.

I'm interested to know how different it was when you joined as to when you left. Well, I was in three different churches during that 28-year time. One of the one up in Georgia, I was in probably only, I don't know, maybe five years.

And that church was one way. It was not very strict. In fact, we used to go to the movies and do things like that with other people in the church. And there were a lot of things that were okay in that church that when we moved to Florida, we found out very quickly we're not okay.

Yeah. And so that church was strict. And I actually really liked the second church a lot better. There were different things about the first church. I didn't like it all. The more I was there.

And then that was up in Georgia, then we moved to Florida. And but then my ex started his own church. He felt he was called a preach and he had his own church for ten years.

And it never got bigger or anything. And then that kind of, I don't know, fizzled out, I guess you could say. And then we went back to the first church we were at in Florida.

And I stayed there when I think one of the things that changed about it is like, you answered a question. I don't know if I was yelling on that and asked it, but about the prison camps that they were going to build for us in Alaska.

Well, people were talking more about things like that when I first joined. And by the time I was there, I hadn't heard anybody talk about any prison camps that was going to end up in for a long time.

And you know, it was constantly about the World Council of Churches and stuff like that. And it had kind of shifted focus to a degree. But I guess I didn't really understand that was because of time passing.

I thought it was just because we were in one church kind of, I was emphasizing one of the things. I'm almost another emphasizing another group of things. But yeah, that's a big difference. They were less.

I don't know. I don't know. And like, people have asked me, well, what about 1977? I mean, you joined in 1978. Well, nobody was talking about 1977 and 1978. I just couldn't imagine. And I don't even know when I found out about 1977, but it was not in 1978. I have no idea really when I found out.

But I just, I bought the party line and it wasn't a prophecy. It was a prediction and all this other stuff. And, you know, just like every other good little cult member, I didn't let it bother me.

Yeah. So for our listeners who were never in this thing and what does 1977 mean, right? It is the most notable of the many failed Doomsday prophecies of William Brannum. 1977 was supposed to be the year when he allegedly could see nothing in the visions past that date.

And he learned by divine revelation. He said 1977 is the year. Well, leading up to it, they had all these pamphlets that they'd pass out with 1977. And there were entire church communities that move from one state to another to escape the big destruction that was coming.

Yeah, it's pretty weird stuff. But 1977 was the, was the Doomsday, but the prison camps. That's, for me, it's still fascinating because there are still churches today that, that teach that. Remember, this whole thing started on the heels of the world wars and there, there was this impending, this fear of impending doom that there would be another world war.

The threat was obviously during Brannum's time was Russia. So the quote unquote prophecy, which is only partially on, on recording, was that the Russians would storm the shores of the United States and ravage the women.

And I grew up hearing this. I grew up in churches that taught it. But you know, there's only so much you can focus on that level of horrific before people just get tired of the horrific.

And so there are churches that have gone away from it and they don't, you know, they won't talk about it anymore. There are still some that the people are still under that level of bondage and they do talk about it, which is really sad.

But it's so different when you leave that and you go into a regular church and they're actually talking about Jesus. They're not talking about Russians raping the women. Exactly. Exactly. I agree completely. Yeah. And you know, I didn't know until I heard you say it and show us on the tapes on the quotes that William Brannum had many other prophecy predictions, whatever you want to call them about the end of the world.

I had no idea. I thought so only seven, only one. So yeah, yeah, it's really odd as I'm digging in deeper into the British Israel doctrines. It appears that this was a this was a thing.

People were predicting by measuring the pyramid, which is of all things, it's just unbelievable, but the pyramid dates show us brothers and sisters that the world is going to the world is going to end and everyone around you is going to die by this next year.

And then when that didn't happen, they've moved the date forward and it became such a progression of failed predictions and moving the date that these men just really didn't care. They could throw a date out and it didn't matter if it's stuck or not.

Exactly. And then, you know, very few people leave over failed prophecies that's even been proven scientifically that they can say a prophecy and then it doesn't happen and then people just come up with a reason why their church is still true and their prophets still true, which is totally contradictory to do theironomy 18, so I don't know.

Yeah, and it's scientifically I can assure you that the world did not end in 1977. So I'm curious to know more about what it was like for you, what was life like in the message, what were some experiences that you feel are most memorable, good or bad?

When I, okay, I was 16 when I joined, so I was in high school and it was December before my 12th grade in high school. And I, before I heard of William Brannum and what he said about higher education, my plan was to go to college and I had really good grades, I graduated with honors and I know I could have gotten some scholarships and that was my plan, you know, go to college.

And what I wanted to do is I wanted to do a double major, one in German, because we had German at our high school and I absolutely loved it, it's like one of my favorite classes and one in 20th century European history and I wanted to become a professor, teach German or, but I also, and teach, you know, about that subject, but I was really fascinated by World War II, I mean I still kind of am and Hitler and I wanted to eventually go to Germany and write like the ultimate book about Hitler, that was my ambition when I was in high school

and I believe I could do, I believe I was capable of doing that, you know, with my grades and everything and I don't think it was like too hard or anything. So then I found out that William Bramham said higher education is up the devil and so I never once, I never looked at any colleges, I never applied, I never tried to get any skull. I just said I'm not going to college. I told my mom and dad I'm not going to college and they accepted it. I mean they didn't try to they wanted me to

go but they didn't try to force me into doing something absolutely good. I'm gonna do. And like one thing I did since my parents were in the message is I didn't tell them a lot of the reasons why I did this stuff I did. And I never told them it was because of my church because I was really kind of afraid that if they knew the full extent that the church was affecting my life they might try to make me stop going. You see they didn't know I was in a cult. They thought I was just in this really super strict Christian church that I was going

to get totally sick of and quit. And they were and they I think they thought that if they'd try to force me out of it that there's a very good chance I probably would have run away and seen if the pastor would let me love his family or my best friend because I was holy I was like 200% in the message. And so that happened so I never went to college I never did those things and I'm really sad about that still to this day but one the other teaching and then I found out that William random in between saying that higher education is bad and in between

saying that he said at some point that the DDS that's on the end of the or DDS or whatever it is DDS at the end of somebody like doctor of divinity somewhere he said that stood for dead dog and in between saying that he said he wishes he could have gone seminary and that he was talking about sending Billy Paul I don't know if he ever did to Bob Jones University which I learned from that from you but there was another teaching that affected me even worse. So after I started after I joined the message I started dating a guy who wasn't a believer but I didn't know that

wasn't good. I mean I mean I just a little but you know it takes a long time to learn what's okay and what's not okay so I was dating this guy and three months after I started dating him we got engaged and you know I thought I loved him I probably did love him but he was very disrespectful I kicked you up four dates an hour and a half late and just I don't know he I don't know anyway but he asked me to marry him at a red light and I said yes for turn green so then I was sitting

in church one day and the pastor started preaching about engagement and he said he showed all the reasons by William Raymond I'm talking about how the origin Mary was called to his wife even though they were just engaged they weren't married yet and how the things and the Old Testament you know pointed to that and he said he read the quotes by William Raymond that if you are engaged and you break that engagement and marry another person you are committing adultery.

So I was sitting there in church listening to that. I felt like a dungeon came out of the ceiling and lowered itself down around me and I realized at that point I have two options in this life. Be alone for the rest of my life, never have kids, never have a family, live like a kind of like a nun, or marry the guy. I'm engaged to no matter what he does, no matter how he treats me.

And in my total lack of wisdom of somebody who is about 17 and one-thirds year old, I picked the marriage. And after that no matter what happened, I never considered breaking up with him because I knew that if I did break up with him I would never be able to marry again and I just thought that sounded terrible. I didn't want to do that with that's not what I wanted.

So then later finding out that Sarah Brannum was engaged and I don't know the circumstances of how that engagement ended but she married another guy and had eight kids. So that's another big blow that those two things I feel like are the two things that affected me the most negatively about being in the message and to find out that William Brannum and his own family did not follow those two things. It's really hard not to be really angry about that. I feel like those two things were in my life. It's so hard. This impossible to measure how much of your life has changed and can

be ruined by this thing. And see I grew up on the other side of it. I was, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this. I actually was very close friends with Sarah Brannum's first engagement.

Really close friends. In fact, love the guy. He was a great guy. He is a great guy. Really good person. He was one of my dad's best friends and I can remember making the long trek to Jefferson ville and the highlight for me obviously was seeing the Brannum Tabernacle but then we'd go to his house and he had video games and he actually gave me my first video game and it was so much fun.

He was such a fun guy. He's still alive but he moved away so I don't get to see him as much but great guy. But see I saw a different side of things because I was in a different level or a different tier and these things. I don't know what was going on all the way down in Georgia.

Yeah I mean these things that there's like a pyramid scheme right the cult leader at the top and then everybody else is below and underneath. Why was somewhere in the middle and I had a college education which is higher level.

It was frowned upon, but it wasn't like, you know, especially in the elite. It wasn't so much forbidden, interestingly, because my grandfather was the head pastor. He spoke very strongly against higher education until one of the brethren married his daughter, my aunt, and he was a very, very smart, intelligent man with a very high education, and then suddenly it's okay for everybody.

Exactly. Exactly. I know what you mean. And so like, you were saying like, well, so we got married, and it was a very bad marriage, and it lasted for 22 years. It was abusive. In my opinion, it was abusive, and in my opinion, he felt the license to abuse me, treat me terrible, based on William Bramham's teachings. And I'm not saying William Bramham endorsed everything he did to me. I'm not saying that because I know he didn't. But what I am saying is that when William Bramham preaches the terrible things about women that he preaches, then guys who

choose to, I know there's a lot of good guys in the message, don't cheat their wives back. But guys who choose to, they take that and they run with it. And you know, I mean, if I, like, he was just for one very minor example compared to the stuff that happened, the really terrible stuff that happened. If I said something he didn't like, then he would say, he would say something like, you're wrong. And how come you're wrong? And he would follow, he said, you're deceived. Why are you deceived? And he would follow, literally follow me around the house,

saying, why are you deceived? Why are you deceived? I mean, until I said the words, I'm deceived because women are 100%, a thousand percent more easily deceived because we're not part of the original creation. And then he would really really meal them. And that is just a very tiny example.

That is like minor compared to a lot of the other stuff that happened. But it just showed that William Bramham's teachings seeped in like kind of like the consciousness, like women are bad, women are deceived. They're not part of the original creation. They're lower than hog or a dog, you know, and it's just sickening. It really is sickening. And you know, I've had people send me comments and emails and whatnot saying, oh, and Bramham never told us, never told these people to do that. They did that on their own. But when you have a person who has made a stage

persona of insulting and making people laugh at the insult like you'll call women dog meat and then you can hear in the background all these women just all these men laughing you don't hear a single woman laughing obviously but he's saying these insulting things that are horrific even you know to back then or today was horrific insulting things for the purpose of entertainment religious entertainment but then what happens is when you take a person who has some sort of a mental health issue or personality disorder who has a tendency to do the wrong things well then

they can abuse those same things because it's part of the religious doctrine and so then the question has to go back well did William Brenham really cause it because he's the one who started the insulting thing he laid the framework for this and if you're in a normal Christian church as as I'm experienced after leaving they even have support groups for people who have troubles there are men's groups you can join there there are ways to help people improve whereas in the cult there is no mechanism to help a person improve and worse than that there's no checks and

balances to make sure that there aren't people who can do this to women right exactly and well when I was 20 I tried to leave and I went to my pastor and I'm going to say his name because he has passed away his name was right Wallace and he his so-called health was worse than no health at all and one of the things he said was that I was causing a reproach upon the church by leaving my husband he did not say my husband was causing a reproach on the church by using his wife he said I caused the reproach two weeks later I was back with him

I had no support at all and when I did try to tell him more detail about the bad things that were going on he made it really clear he didn't want to hear it so and I was very young I was not at all assertive and so when he made it really clear I mean I regret that I wish I could have just barreled on and said no you have to hear this what I didn't I was young and I was very like passive kind of I mean and the message teaches you to be that way when you're a woman too

and then so that was a terrible experience and then when I was 43 so all those years later I left again and that that's the only time I left in second time I left it was for good I never went back I never even considered going back and when I told the pastor in Florida which I'll say the same too because he passed away His name is John Seaman, and the first words out of his mouth, you don't have to live that way, and

I was I was like wow, you know I really believe that he's a good he was a good man and there were some real good people in that church down here But so it was they offered me financial support and everything, you know But it was definitely with the understanding that I could never marry anybody else, but it's kind of like okay, you know You've drank the strict nine deer and make sure you don't try to drink any cyanide You know, since he didn't reply to the strict nine I wasn't worried about whether or not I could marry anybody

I just wanted to make all the bets of stock But then I got the more we talked and the more they talked to me I got incredibly angry at them even though they were supporting me because they were telling me All kinds of stuff that had never once been preached over the pulpit So these things that they were telling me in private They don't tell a woman unless you come to them and you say my husband's doing this this this this this You know, I can't take it anymore Then they're all 100% supporting you and I will say this for them

They constantly preach that a man is supposed to treat his wife like a queen They said that all the time they were not pro men being bullies and Treating their families terrible at all, but they didn't understand that Okay, you can preach that, but if the husband doesn't choose to do that Where does that leave the wife?

They never told you like M if your husband doesn't do that Then this is they never just they just act like that was never gonna happen So they were telling me that I could leave just all this different stuff and so finally I asked them How many guys never preach this you know because some I don't know fully in Brandon said this But somewhere along the line I learned that if you have a problem You can just pray and God will inspire the preacher to talk about that thing And like I prayed I prayed every time I'm in the church God please

Inspire whoever's gonna preach to talk about what I need to hear because I don't know what to do. I can't take this anymore and so um it never happened So then they so I asked them how come you guys never preach this and they're like well the reason we don't preach it is because There's probably some women that if we did preach those who aren't being abused and aren't being treated bad Would take that and go ahead and leave their husbands because we said it so we can't say it to the whole church And I'm sitting there thinking I know like

Two different times in that church There was there was a family and then that family left and there was a second family But and there were others But two of them were so blatant and it didn't even that doesn't include my family because my ex was better about being he was very um I don't know how to put it he didn't make it obvious he was treating me bad although some people noticed it but these two guys they were blatant about it it was disgusting and everybody in the church knew these two men were using their

kids and their wives it just went on I don't I'm not saying they never adjusted personally because of course if they did I wasn't there but they never preached it never months but they're so worried about women using it wrongly but yeah so the women are just sitting there like well I and they would preach like once you get married you're you can't leave you know they would say that because they wanted there was a lot of young people in church and they wanted the kids to know how serious engagement was like see I had no idea that was even preached before I got engaged

but they they wanted these kids to know which I'm glad they did that I wish my minister would have done that but you know but you're sitting there and you've been married all that time you know it's not it was for the kids but you know and applied to everybody so that infuriated me the absolutely infuriated me yeah the double standard in the lack of the lack of accountability I you know you were probably the same as me but growing up in this thing we're taught that we're the only ones that teach that the woman should stay with the man that there isn't any others that

support what they consider to be the biblical rulers for marriage and divorce because our prophet brought the sermon marriage and divorce but then you know the very one of the very first churches we visited after leaving the message they were very strict too in that they that if you're married you should not leave your wife and they would preach that from you know sermon to sermon you to hear them saying this is what we believe but then they would also have the other side of it they would say if you are a spouse who's being abused you do need to get away you do not need to be

abused and if they never said that in the message churches I was in yeah they just they did tell the people don't don't treat your wives like a doormat don't do that treat her like a queen because I know some are really unbranded say that to treat your wife like a queen and they always went back to that quote and they read it to people and they thought they they addressed the problem but you know there's nobody there in the home when nobody else is around forcing the husband to treat his wife good if he treats not to treat his wife good then he doesn't yeah and there's

nothing you could do about it and that's one of the things that they don't tell you whenever you're recruited into this thing my grandfather was the pastor of the head church as you know and I have eat when I was in it I knew this and then I've met other people that this happened through my grandfather after leaving but There were women who were physically abused by their husbands in the church, and my grandfather Supported the abuser and said that the woman should be submissive, but when you hear his sermons when he's you know He's preaching Sunday school or whatever. He would say the same thing the woman woman is your queen treat her like a queen

And she'll if you treat her well, she'll do good for you something something that affect So when you hear the public version of what you're thinking. Oh, he's he supports the woman, right? But then whenever there's a situation of abuse. He's not and I have very close friends who his father just brutally beat the wife and my grandfather supported the abuser and He's not the only one that this has happened with I do know others that it's happened and The problem for me, you know any church that you have you're gonna have problems I don't care what it is

But there's also a means to correct the problem and there's also a system of checks and balances where if you know This is happening get the woman some help get the man some help because the man shouldn't be doing this and the In the message cults they try to just cover it up sweep it under the rug and In doing so they're enabling the the predators Definitely they definitely enable the predators. There's no bad consequences to the predator He can do whatever he wants and he's not gonna suffer any negative consequences for his actions And my ex left the message about five years before I loved him

He got his feelings start one day and all of a sudden it was okay to drink beer smoke cigars And he's sitting there with a beer and one hand a cigar and other quoting William Brano Matt me It's ridiculous So it's pretty bad when you're married to somebody who drinks his smokes But also has the whole message practically memorize and can be too over head with it just like he used to when he was in the message So that happened but finally I left and the biggest reason I left him was because there's no way I was gonna

We we had a problem with infertility and we were married 12 years before we had a baby And we finally had a baby and By the time she was three I knew there's no way I was gonna raise my daughter in this toxic home I Mean I let myself live in it. I probably would have let myself live in it indefinitely, but I wasn't gonna do that to my daughter so I broke the cult rules because I was sitting and thinking I'm either gonna call a divorce attorney or a marriage Counselor which one should I call which one should I call?

And I guess if I'm gonna do that because the both of them felt wrong and I thought well I guess if I'm gonna do something wrong it should be a counselor because at least then we maybe we could try to fix it and I did that I broke the rules and I started seeing a psychologist and we did marriage counseling You're not doing it for five whole years and um yeah it was a long time but um so the counseling really how it like revolutionized my life it was one of the best things I've ever done is getting therapy

and um so he wasn't in it anymore but you know he still had that mindset that it was okay to do those stuff he was doing to me and so um I decided to leave and I think with the support of my therapist I'm pretty sure well I'm about 95% sure I would have left when I did whether brother John would have said you don't have to live that way anymore or where he said go back and be more submissive more sweet more nice more this more that and you know whether what he said that

or not I'm pretty sure I would have left because I did have some support finally on my therapist so um but I so when I left him in 2003 and I didn't leave the message in 2004 and I had no intentions of leaving the message I believed in the message so I kept going to church but then they would preach with the same using the same verses that my ex used to beat me over the head with all the time and I would have a panic attack in church but I didn't feel like I would just sit there and if somebody would have looked at me I guess that I would have normal

I'm assuming but it was like I had a tornado inside of me of a motion and I got to the point where I couldn't stand going to church because I kept having panic attacks all the time and then I was thinking is this my emotions is this the devil what's going on and then believe it or not actually hallucinated in church once it was really kind of pushing me over the edge and that's with me so um and then I finally had to admit to myself and be honest with myself I did not believe what William Brandham said about women about marriage I just did not believe that I didn't believe

there was any reason on the planet where I needed to submit to him and I know the bible says that and I'm sorry but I don't believe that and um I finally had to admit myself I don't believe 100% of what William Brandham said yeah and that was kind of earth shattering because you I'm sure you know I'm going with this he said if you don't believe it 100% if you only believe it 99.9999999999 for that you're not a believer so I was thinking about all this stuff all the time constantly is it's a big like storm inside of me China like what's you know what's happening to me what's

going on but I finally had to admit I'm forcing myself to go to church even though it's torture and I hate it because I'm having panic attacks and even hallucination and I'm torturing myself every time by going but according to Brother Graham I'm not a believer because I don't believe 100% of it so then I thought if I'm really not a believer then I'm not going to go yeah and that got me out his words got me out

you know it's so funny because he uses phrases like you can tell a person by the company that keep well once you want you realize the company that was with him and you bring that to the you know bring it to the surface and you start looking at you're like oh my gosh who was he self admitting these problems and and like you said if you don't believe it 100% that's one of the sayings and the cult well how can you believe it if you're saying the polar opposite from sermon to sermon does he even really believe it 100% of it one 50% of it contradicts the other 50% yeah how do you how do you

like you have to play so many mental gymnastics and mess with your own head to try to wrap your brain around that and keep it like where you are believing it even though it makes no sense and it's so contradictory and so many things he said weren't true never happened all the stuff he's probably you know the prophecies he even talked about like he even talked about the India trip that the prophet he said the prophecies about that failed yeah so even he and then that his prophecies failed yeah what's really hard is you know what you described basically it's the symptoms of PTSD so

you're in the church you're having PTSD but it's so different from whenever you go into a normal church not a non cult church because if you had these symptoms you could easily approach the minister or or even you know some of the lay members and say hey I'm really having trouble and they might get you some help or they might themselves try to help at minimum they're going to check up on you say hey how you doing you know call you during the week how you doing you feel better well the first time I experienced this I was like in a state of shock these people

are actually pretty nice I never ever had that because people the way in which this was set up as a destructive cult there is no framework for helping people but worse than that they there is a framework of fear to admit that you need help and you can admit you need help yeah because then people think you're not saved you're not a Christian you don't have a holy ghost maybe you're part of the foolish virgin I mean there's all these things they can think about but there's something wrong with you, you must not be part of the bride.

And so you don't want to let anybody know that you're having problems. It's just, I think a lot of people in the cult, people a lot of secrets and a lot of things going behind closed door that nobody talks about.

And that is really sad. But you know, people are going to judge you if you tell them the truth. Like, I didn't tell the truth until I started seeing a therapist. That's when I started telling the truth.

Yeah. And it should come as no surprise that therapists and the medication that you can get for your mental health are of the devil. Because the moment that you start to get help, many times you're going to see that the church itself is the problem. And I use the word church quoted, the quote unquote, you know, this, it's so bad. So I'm just, I'm glad that you got out and thankful that you were able to get out and heal. And I know that the effects of being in it are long lasting. Even for me, every day I find something that I have to, in my head,

is programmed. And I have to rewire it to become, you know, not to, not to think that way, because that way is wrong. Right. The one of the things that's amazing to me is to find out some Bible verses that I thought were Bible verses were actually mashups of Bible verses that William constructed. And I'm like, what is that even in the Bible? But whosoever shall add to or take away from this book? Exactly. Exactly. And it's just, it's such a shame. I hate the way, you know,

this cult just ruins lives. It just lights people's lives. Yeah. And people who are still in it think that they have the best thing in the whole wide world. And you know, I thought I had the best thing in the whole wide world, even when I was being abuse. And um, but it wasn't like the abuse wasn't happening at church. And I mean, actually spiritual abuse was happening at church. But I still managed to find a way in my mind that I had like the best thing in the whole wide world.

But the abuse was happening at home. And like, I didn't really even connect it to that much, because I mean, well, you know, they don't say that it's okay to do this stuff. So to me, it had nothing to do with each other. I didn't understand how everything was so connected.

And that was a big thing to finally understand that it all is connected. And like, if I hadn't had gotten engaged and then found out that literally, that literally, according to the church, I was already married. It's like, I got married without knowing I got married.

Yeah. Raising. I mean, And that's the idea that makes no sense whatsoever. But really, that's what happened to me, because I was married in the eyes of God according to William random. So I don't believe I ever would have, I believe I would have broken up with him, because I started putting up so much jump that I don't think I would have put up with him.

I can't say 100% for sure, because that scenario never played out. But why would I sit there and wait for an hour and a half or somebody to show up for date? I don't think I would have.

Why would I put up with the disrespect, the rudeness, and consider to all the stuff, you know, I don't even go into, but why would I stay with somebody like that? Why would I agree to marry somebody like that?

You know, we had only dated less than, I think about three months when he asked me to marry him. And like I said, we were at a red light, and that's how much thought I put into it.

I said yes for the light turn green. That's pretty sad. That's pretty sad. That wouldn't make it out. You know, there are very few things that make me angry, but when I think back it, what it has done to the lives of people.

And when somebody sends me that one comment that says, well, what if I in the cult, what if I in the cult am right and you who are not in the cult are wrong?

What has it hurt? Because I simply believe in this man, and what if I'm wrong? What if I believe this man is wrong? It hasn't hurt anything. I say no, you know, this whole framework, what happened to you, you know, there are bad people in the world regardless of the church, but what happened to you is a result of the church.

This is a thing that happened because of the church. And had the church, and I'm using the word church quoted, I should not say it like that. If this place had not influenced your life, you wouldn't have been in the situation.

And more to the point, if it weren't for the very, very wrong doctrine, the doctrine that kept you with this man,

this would have never happened. And it was really hard for me to make that leap when I was in it, because I had the same mindset, what has it hurt if I'm in it?

And what if it does turn out to be wrong? I'm still a follower of Jesus, I just believe in this prophet guy, but once you get on the other side of this and you start to experience what, it's like not to be under that authoritarian control.

Oh my gosh, I'm sad that I was in it and I didn't have half of the trouble that you had. Well, like you said, I mean, where we lived all those years under bondage without even realizing it.

You know, it was just like, it was bondage. And I think one of the things that helped me, actually kind of have a little bit of, maybe some non-message indoctrination. Is that okay? So I wasn't allowed to work outside the home because I'm a woman and I didn't have the kid because I couldn't get pregnant and we didn't have a TV or anything So you're home all day long by yourself, you know In the house. So I read so many books and a lot of them would not be message-approved

I think that help I think that kept part of me a lot That might not have oh and also another thing. So of course we did we didn't have TV But we had a radio and nobody said that was wrong and of course I couldn't listen to the rock and roll that I loved when I was in high school like I do listen to it now but Nobody said MPR was simple I Didn't think it was simple. So here I am. I can't even watch TV because I'm in this ultra-cut-servated cult But I'm listening to MPR all day

Wow, and I have a new idea. I mean, I knew it was liberal radio station Which if anybody doesn't know MPR's national public radio and it is a very liberal radio station and I think it's one of the best I don't agree with all of their like ideology But I think it's a great radio station and I listened to that when I wasn't listening to Christian music I also was to a lot of classical music or William Branham. I was listening to MPR

So MPR and classical music were two things that I learned to love While I was in the cult and I still have classical music. I don't listen to MPR very much, but I love it and So those are two things that I really started to love all of this in the cult because those are two things I found that nobody said were simple Yeah, so it's kind I just think it's kind of comical that I was sitting and I mean I'm copying and pleading I got MPR all so yeah, you know learning about the world

And I think MPR and the books I was reading I think they kept a little part of me alive Yeah, that might have died or might have maybe it would have been a maybe it was like a candle flicker That maybe would have gone down and maybe just a tiny spark But you know, but it I think those two things really did take something alive in me That they were trying to snuff out My mind my intellectual curiosity Everything like that all those parts of me that they don't value They don't value those things one bit and one thing I really despise about this cult is they glorify ignorance

They love it. Yeah, you know, William Branagh, McLeck, he was this uneducated hillbilly and all this stuff And so it seems like and I'm not saying everybody and like I haven't lived all over the country like you have So I've only I haven't been exposed to a lot of different message searches But the people that I've interacted with, like, even on your channel and not everybody, and the people I've interacted with in person, a lot of them really seem to value ignorance and take pride in not knowing just basic things. And that, to me, is despicable. And the same people

are homeschooling their children because they don't want them to be part of the world. Well, I mean, I heard people say that all kids things do is learn how to do mathematics, learn how to be able to read Bible and brother-grain them's books. And that makes me sick.

That's a crime. Yeah. It is a crime. Yeah, it is a crime. I mean, I know what you're talking about. There's this... I don't know. It's like a programmed way of thinking where if you can take something that defies all logic and believe it anyway, you're holier than the people who can't make that leap. And for a person like me who has an analytical mind, I just... I can't go there, man. It's not... It doesn't make any sense. Well, it's never going to make any sense, right?

So, I'm really glad you did this with us today and, you know, your story's fascinating. Every new person I meet, I meet a new friend and it's just so wonderful to have people that are open and honest and what you see is what you get, right? If there was one thing that you could say to a person, to your former self who was in this thing, if there was one person, one thing that you could say to help them, what would you say? I think I would say God did not create me and he did not have a plan for me that involved being spiritually and almost every other kind of way

abuse for a very large percentage of my life. You know, I had myself convinced and the reason I really believed that the way I was living was God's plan for my life, even though it involved a lot of abuse and a lot of charitable things. And the way I guess the way the thing I came up within my mind is that God told the Old Testament prophets and I never thought I was a prophet, but God told the Old Testament prophets to do things and the results of those things is they suffered greatly like Jeremiah and like we feel and so I thought, you know, God does ask us to do

things that result in a lot of suffering. So I thought I guess that means that God is asking me to live this way and whether I suffer, whether I'm happy, whether I'm miserable, whether I'm being abused or anything else that is God's plan for me. And that was so wrong. That is just, I hope nobody Nobody is believing something so wrong like I believe Because there's nothing there's nothing truth. There's no truth in that the feeling about that's I felt so trapped You know, there didn't seem to be any way out and But then when I had my daughter it took me a long time

I wish it would have taken me a lot less time It took me a while, but I got her and myself out of both traps the marriage and the cult and

So there was a way out. I just wouldn't Go towards it because I was too I was so scared of God I was terrified of God when I was in the message and that's another thing I would like to tell my old self and anybody else. I was scared to death of God He was very punitive. He's he's presented in the message as a very punitive being I mean I mean one time I messed up. I said something I shouldn't have said and I I fixed myself a sandwich for lunch I was terrified to eat it because I thought Bob was gonna punish me by making me choke on the sandwich and die

I was there about myself so that well if I choke nobody's gonna be able to give me the hamlet when I were and I was really scared to eat. I mean that's the last thought Bob then yeah, and then I want him Not because I just came up with that myself. I saw that. I saw him that way because that's the way they present him They don't present him like as a God of love. They present him as a God who's gonna, you know, and two things two things that I have hated from the first time I heard them

The entire time I was in the message two things I hated was the word dog meat and the word cannon fodder and I don't believe God created anybody With the purpose of them being dog meat or cannon fodder That bothered me so much even when I was totally immersed and 200 percent You know in the message is still really bothered me because I got that's as wrong That's as wrong, you know Oh my God create people just to have them be cannon fodder Why why would you know and this thing about beating daughters With a barrel slap until they can't get out of bed for six months or should I have so many bolts on them?

They can't get their clothes back on just because the daughters aren't living the way he said you have to live It's okay to practically kill them. No, it's not and it just makes me sick, you know and There have been African-American people that have been in white supremacy cults I read memoirs by people that have done that and it I can never get out I'm like why why would any particular so I had to read their memoirs, of course, but then one day I realized I'm a woman and I bet there are a lot more women in the message than men

I don't know a lot a lot there are just like most just have more women than men, and I was in a male supremacy cult. I spent eight years in a male supremacy cult, and I'm a woman, so why should it surprise me if a black person is in a white supremacy cult?

It shouldn't. I did it. I did it too. You know, people who are never in the sort of thing, they kind of dismiss it. They say, well, why didn't you just leave? You're in it.

Why didn't you just leave if you didn't like it? It's really difficult to understand the level of control that they have over your head. Even more difficult is to realize the abuse, because even for myself, it took me a long time to realize that there's also emotional abuse to consider.

I know many families who say I was never abused. I was never in abusive home, but if you're in a family who came from this type of religion, and you're hearing this emotional abuse on these recordings over and over and over, and from behind the pulpit, from the ministers over and over, it's emotional abuse, well, then you begin to mimic it when you get in the house, but now the children are often emotionally abused.

I would say that I have the utmost admiration for every person who is like this cult. Leaving the cult was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I do want to say that anybody, it wasn't hard for me compared to people like you, because I have zero connection to this message.

I don't have any friends in it, and I never have any family in it. My ex joined it. After he started dating me, I introduced him to it. I just want to say how much I admire the strength and the courage of everyone who leaves it, but especially people who end up losing family members, their families get ripped apart because of this terrible thing.

I mean, it was so hard for me to leave. I almost felt like I was going to go crazy, and yet I had 100% for my family. Oh, she's finally leaving that cult she's been in for the last 28 years.

My family was so happy. I cannot even imagine being married to somebody who wants to stay in the cult, having kids that are staying in the cult, and they don't even want to talk to you because you're leaving or parents.

I can't even imagine the torture of that. When I think how hard it was for me, I just admired the courage and the strength of everybody who leaves that has family ties to the cult because that must be like a thousand times worse than what I went through when I left.

So I just want to say that I really admire people that do that. It takes so much strength and courage. It is the single most difficult thing that most of us have ever gone through, or will go through in our lives.

The doors was so easy compared to leaving the cult. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check it out. us out on the web, you can find us at William-Branum.org.

For an overview of the historical research of William-Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William-Branum in his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

For an overview of William-Branum, you can find us at www. William-Branum.org. www. William-Branum.org www. William-Branum.org

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