Shakahola Massacre: An Interview With Margot Kiser

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of WilliamBranham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of ChristianGospelChurch.org and today we have our very special guest, Margot Kaiser, investigative journalist in Kenya and we're going to be having a in-depth yet very casual conversation about the events that have happened in Kenya with Paul McKinsey and his suicide sect and I can't even imagine what would be like Margot to be on the ground being able to talk face to

face to somebody who is this level of destructive in the world. This is one of the most notorious figures in the world right now. I'm trying to think back to the days of the Jonestown massacre, what it would have been like if a journalist was actually able to go and speak directly with Jim Jones after the massacre.

Yet today you have had that opportunity to speak with McKinsey in prison and I just I'm very excited to have you on the show to talk more about what that was like. Thank you, John. Thank you so much to you both for having me. What was it like? Yeah, I mean I think I seized the opportunity to to even cover this story because you rarely hear about cult leaders like this this destructive who survived the whatever catastrophe that they brought about like Jim Jones.

And what was it like? I had the opportunity to meet somebody in his family and who got me into the prison and as a let's just say a friend and this was early days and I also in my capacity as a human rights advocate. So this took place at Shimo Latewa and that's where he's been in a remand for it since I think May and it's not what I thought. He you know we had to go through the security.

and then led to a very simple room, sunshine, sunlit room, and a couple of guards, and their McKenzie was sitting there already. And I was surprised because when he stood up, you know, he only came up to my height and jump five-six.

And so he's, you know, diminutive, basically. He was not handcuffed. He seemed very humble, compliant, you know, not at all aggressive, hard-edged. I think at that stage, and probably still, he was desperate, because I think at that early,

in those early days, he didn't know what he was being put inside for, you know, it's taken just until last week, since the charges were red. So, but the other limitation was that,

since I was not there as a journalist, they never would have let me in as a journalist. So my questions were very limited. I talked about his, one of the offspring is a very talented photographer.

And he didn't seem at all interested in that. He just wanted to know, seemed to want to know, get me the hell out of here.

And, you know, and if you do, well, I think he was well aware of the fact that, even if he were somehow sprung, he could easily be killed by, you know, a mob, which is what often happens here, because justice rarely comes to pass.

It still could happen. They couldn't quit him. Anyway, he was just very soft-spoken. I mean, you've heard his sermons, he's very raspy-boys, very aggressive, very harsh.

And this was a completely different person. This was like an angel. How do you average people kind of respond to that situation with him over there? Like, is he reviled by the average person or did they give it much thought?

I've noticed, anytime I mention McKenzie's name, especially to a Kenyan, they will laugh nervously. And I really don't know what that's about. It's sort of, how do you explain this person? It's almost like he's, you know, a troublemaker mischief, but that, and how did he get away with it for so long?

What they laugh. Charles and I have been studying McKenzie for quite some time when we first got the news that this had happened. It was so similar, and ironically, he and I, as you know, we've been doing the historical podcast on William Branham.

He and I were discussing the things that we had found with Jim Jones and People's Temple connected to the Branham Movement, which is what we research and discuss, and it was just so eerie for us, because we could see the similarities of what happened in the Chocohol of Forest Massacre to Johnstown, but this was worse.

It takes a lot of dedication to starve yourself to death, slowly over time, versus drinking just a simple glass of coolade and immediately falling over. The level of mind control that McKinsey must have had over his people must have been extreme.

What are your thoughts on just, you know, the massacre itself and how it happened? I'm still trying to figure it out. That comes in part two of my series of three, and there are a lot of blank spots, but if you look at the charge sheet, you know, for every one of them, it's always on various dates between 2021 and 2023.

So this stuff started happening over a period of two years. This wasn't just, you know, February or March of 2023. People, for what I understand, you know, they would go in there with COVID, you know, and since there were no medical services, they would die.

So, you know, and for that reason, people are thinking that the number could be over a thousand because people were going in there and not many people were going out. We're talking about vast expanse of land and, you know, next to the Savo National Park where, you know, animals, hyenas can get rid of the evidence pretty quickly.

So, well, I think for what I understand, first of all, you mentioned a roof, okay? So roof was the partner, it was Paul McKenzie's partner when they established the Good News International back in, I think it was 2003.

And she is the mother-in-law of the second, McKenzie's second in command whose name is Dairy Mokalama, aka Smart. I put a photo of him upon LinkedIn, various social media, but he's a very, very good friend of Paul McKenzie.

He acted as like the- treasure for the church. So they go way back to about, let's just say around 2000 or the time when he broke from whatever might have been branded or related and to establish his own church.

Okay. So we're talking people that he knew for a really long time. This did not happen overnight. And that is what I understand about cults. You know, you lure people in, make them feel safe, love, bomb. I know there's a whole process. And in this case, you know, they were family connections.

So Ruth's so smart and his wife, Mary, all their children are dead. They've been linked. You know, there were like six children, DNA testing. So he's a really interesting smart.

How they did it, the picture that's emerging for me is, you know, Mackenzie himself would preside over these burials. Like everybody was scheduled to die exactly on a certain day. Like I don't, the, um, Francis Juanje is a, is a, um, elderly teacher in Mombasa and his grandchildren. Three of them went to Shakahola with his daughter. And, um, one, the eldest survived and the two younger ones died. The mother suffocated them. Um, they were supposed to die March 15, 16, 17th. And, uh, the grandfather happened to just get to Shakahola, the day, um, that, uh,

Ephraim, I think he was seven was supposed to die. Uh, and then he found out that his two younger ones, um, uh, went to Jesus. And because they weren't ready to starve to death on those days, um, the mother, you know, pinched the nose and covered the mouth. And that was it.

That is horrific. It is. And, uh, I, I, I mean, I, I, I can't, I cannot wrap my head around. Um, it's hard to visualize, you know, um, why, you know, the, the mother's natural instinct is not to kill their child, right? So how, um, It must be very powerful, but I guess you can only really, I think it'll come out eventually what the rationale was.

But first of all, the children are the weakest. And I also believe that he saw children as being in the way. You know, his followers meeting Jesus before the end times. So it was just sort of a house cleaning, something like that.

I don't know. But he would preside over these things that he called, these ceremonies that he called weddings. It's what he needed, heavenly bridegroom. Exactly. You know, COVID was the thing that was nailed for him, you know, because that was every reason in the world to go into the desert, in a way from the satanic world, a way from COVID injections.

And so people died. And I know that there were other types of, there were other fasts, you know, fasts that took place. Because I think there was another time when he said he thought that the world was going to come to an end.

I think it was something like April of 2023 didn't happen. So he had to move it. And I'm wondering, is that true also of these other doomsday cults like Lori Daybell? So yeah, it's really common for cults to move the goalposts.

I think that's usually the term that most people use for it. You know, they set their dates. The dates come, nothing happens. And they move the goalposts to new dates. Yeah, where I come from, that was very common.

We went through, I think, about seven to eight different doomsday dates during my lifetime. So it's very common for it to hit and miss. And with each cycle, you tend to get more radical.

More radical. Interesting. You've invested that much more into it, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Each cycle leads to the more loosened people wake up and leave. And what remains is the crazier. So you gradually, the balance shifts towards crazy.

You know, as the people with more common sense wake up and leave through those cycles. And then the influence is ever increasingly crazy. One of the former followers of Branum sent me, gosh, it was like 15 to 17 big boxes of Branum literature books, recordings.

They had this wide collection of almost everything. And I've been in the slow process of going through it. One of the things I found, which is really interesting, is there are some, some of the books and unfortunately they've got names so I can't show it on the video feed but there's some of the books that have you know the name of the person and then I think there might even be the pastor's name but they've got a date and a math calculation to that date in other words we have six years left then the doomsday and then there's another when that one fails there's a clear mark

through it there's another math calculation here's the next doomsday the Charles has one up here well I want to say there were like 15 different dates in this in this one book that I held

so does that mean that you know these pastors don't lose any credibility when they don't from what I have been able to gather you know this is nothing new this you know you can trace this way back to the days of even nosticism how they come up with all these different ways in which the world is going to end and happily there will be a doomsday which is odd when you think of it but especially in the United States and then it spread you know through the United States and Great Britain it spread in Africa I've been studying British Israelism very deeply

and heavily and I've learned that they did the same thing and it was a British Israel construct wherein they were predicting dates in which the world would end and they were using weird calculations such one of the most common one was the the length of the tunnels in the great pyramid of Giza going to the Kings Chamber and they had measured out like if there was a bump in the path that went down that bump was a mile marker or a time marker and they were they would reassess that length and duration over time and when one failed it was expected that they would recalculate and

go to a new one well that spread into Pentecostalism through famous figures Charles Fox par on the founder of Pentecostalism was in this well they kept recalculating and recalculating and it became such a common thing that nobody thinks anything about it if they move a doomsday date there's no explanation there's a really good book believe the sign actually recommended at one point where I found it at is it's called when prophecy fails and I think it's by man named Leo Festinger I think anyways he he was a I believe a professor sociologist who joined a doomsday call

to observe how failed prophecy affects the groups and so he did a number of studies and and he kind of traced through generally when the failed prediction happens you have a small segment of people who wake up and leave right and then the majority who stayed to them it was a test of their fate and now their their staying is proven they're the true believers and and in that book He walks through and is a very good book, walks through how it slowly radicalizes the people.

Each prediction leads to further radicalization, further radicalization, and so the longer the group exists, like you take Paul McKenzie, of course we don't know, but presumably this would not be his first doomsday prophecy, right?

He's probably had a series of them that led up to this point in probably, you know, we don't know, but it's very common for there to be multiples in with each iteration they're deeper and deeper into the whole.

Yeah, and into the whole he is now. You know, this doesn't naturally lead to what I'm about to say, but I noticed that when I saw photos of him the other day after a week now of having, you know, really heavy charges of terrorism, manslaughter, torture, leveled at him, and his followers, you know, he did not look like Jack the Lad anymore, you know, because he was a pretty confident, happy go lucky guy, really.

He just got away with so much, and now I think it's pretty clear that it's not going to happen. He looked, he did not look good, you know, he looked almost suicidal, you know, just from having watched his face, you know, for so many days and months and weeks.

But we will say that he's, you know, that he still has a hold on his followers, you know, which is interesting, you know, that they're communicating somehow, and certainly every time they go to court together, you know, it's a chance for them, you know, to galvanize whatever remaining radicalization they've got, you know, I think, you know, it's interesting because that, that law court, it's called Shanzu in Momasa, is where a famous al-Shabab recruiter, his nickname was Makaburi for Grave Digger, was, I interviewed the guy, it was 14, 10 years ago, and he was coming out of that same court.

And when guys and tinted windows, you know, the car rolled down the windows and then, you know, shot him dead as he was crossing the street to go to the mosque. And I just, you know, have this horrible feeling that it could, he could have a similar end, maybe not by gunfire.

But I don't know that I mean I I hope not but If you think of Kenya's track record of dealing with things One of the things you and in the way that you described him it reminded me Years ago when I first escaped this the branemism side of things There was this trial, but I think it was Jody Areas was the trial I was watching It was on the news and I just I had it up while I was working one day and I suddenly began to recognize themes in her Responses and defense that reminded me of the cult mindset and that's actually what

One of the things that made me decide to go deeper into studying cults in general But she had read this book called the secret and Oh, I remember that yeah, basically it's Nosticism, but it's repackaged in a book called the secret And it's the notion that you can influence the events by thinking positively in your mind Which is the whole framework for this divine healing thing that emerged in laterane positive confession Basically is the it's using the secret. It's using Nosticism and The way you described McKenzie reminded me of the way that I viewed her because she had this

confidence that She was having a positive confession in her mind and she was going to have a positive outcome in the trial I'm wondering if that influence may have You know, I know it wasn't the secret that influence McKenzie, but the religion itself because they share that framework I'm wondering if that may have had some influence. I would think it definitely does from conversations with his family members You know, I mean if I say something negative about maybe a potential act Don't think that way. Don't think that way. You have to always be positive. Think, you know

You know, it's like Satan entering your brain if you think negatively

It's um I'm sure I but I also think that he was has been able to get away with a lot, right? You know, I mean you know after Police found some 70 kids going to school in his church That was radicalization then I mean that was 2017 Um, and it was like a $70 bond, you know something Nothing wow I'd like what you said there about um, you know the the positive thinking because you know It's very common in these groups that they have almost weaponized positive thinking that's part of the way they shut down critical thought

Um, negative thoughts is some it's almost demonic possession So you don't allow yourself to think negatively and so by not allowing that happen critical thoughts never start start in your mind If you never can start down the path of thinking In a minute, my cult leader is going to kill us all right, because you can't even get that initial thought off in your mind to set off, you know, that chain reaction.

Yeah, the alarm bells, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that very common. Right, I think that he, yeah, the positive, I can see that in his children are very much about that. And, you know, everything is all good, or it's all bad.

And one thing about my article that the son didn't like had to do with, he really reacted quite harshly, was mentioned of Mackenzie walking, entering a church, walking backwards. So I, I, I, I really didn't know where to go with that, but he's, why'd you put that in there?

Because it's like, you know, this comes from Ruth, and Ruth, you know, hates my dad, and it's out to smear him. And it's like, well, she did say it, you know, and, uh, and if you don't put something out there, you're not going to get any response, you know, because it could lead to something else, isn't it?

Somebody else can, oh, yes, I've heard about that church. Well, a lot of cases, they, if they can detect that you're talking with somebody who has critical thoughts against them, they will try to suppress that person's voice.

So it probably wasn't so much about even him walking backwards as it was the fact you're talking to the enemy, you're talking to somebody who has critical thought. When, yeah, when I spoke with Ruth, it was way back in, I guess June, and, um, at that point, she didn't know where her, you know, the daughter and all the children, um, grandchildren were, and now she knows.

So I'm hoping to interview her, again, next week, when I go back to Melindi, but, um, um, yeah, she, it's, it's interesting. I mean, how, what kind of mindset must McKenzie have to not hear any critical thinking coming from the outside?

That's what I want to know. Is it that, that is very positive thinking, hyper-positive thinking, um, about your own worldview? Um, or was he thinking about the money? Or what was he thinking about, you know, what, what drove him, you know, that's still the kind of $64,000 question.

I know early on, um, March, April, you know, is the video cameras were going into the commune, and, you know, the bodies were coming out. All that was being... film. There was a number of news stories that they had photographs and video of the literature and material that was coming out of the commune too. And that's part of I know what sparked our interest to look into this to begin with is because we recognized the literature, something we were intimately familiar with, you know, where John and I come from.

I would just curious, I mean, how has Mackenzie or any of them, maybe they haven't even been asked, how do they respond to, you know, the existence of that literature? What do they say about, you know, the, all of the message literature that they had? What's their case? It's got an answer for everything. And I remember asking that question at some point and the answer was simply, well, you know, over two or three years, people come and go and they leave stuff at our house.

Sounds plausible enough, right? Yeah. And on that, on that same fruit, you know, very interestingly, right? Like we find him speaking some of the same themes that are in those books that we know is there. I don't know the same. Did he have any kind of response around, maybe he wasn't asked as well, anything around how that, around how he may have adapted or used any of that? Is he, if he have anything to say about his connections to William Brownham at all, or he totally deny all that?

Well, like you, I saw the same news footage with the police fanning out all this literature that they found in Chakahola. And of course, I saw William Brownham, I thought, who's this? And, you know, Wikipedia and then immediately found you to start leaving frantic messages on the comment thread of your videos and podcasts. And, you know, that's how I first learned about him, so about William Brownham myself. And although I think I have relatives that were very close to following him in Indiana. Anyway, so one of the first things I did when I had a chance to

speak with McKenzie's immediate family was asked about William Brownham. And everybody flat out said they'd never heard of William Brownham until I mentioned the name. So this is like his son, brother, sister, and, you know, et cetera, mother. And, but then I asked, well, what about voice of God recordings? Have you heard of that? Oh, yes, yes, we've heard of voice of God recordings, of course, as we know, you can't know one without the other, right?

So I don't know how he's going to explain that any further. I really don't. If that was at denial by a mission or ignorance, I don't know. I don't know yet. You don't hear the name, Brent, but voice of God is physical presence, whereas Brannum, as far as their concern, the followers, they may just think what they're hearing on the tapes is the voice of God.

I don't know. That's really odd. If I remember correctly, those books said spoken word and not voice of God recordings. And the key phrase is, you write, it could be the voice of God.

But voice of God recordings is fairly narrowing it down to the organization. That's really interesting. Yeah. The literature there was just, it was mind-boggling when we saw that in the pictures, because it wasn't like he had a library, there was a library literature from various authors.

It was 100% message literature that he had, 100% and so that was just mind-boggling to look at that. And then when we find traces of him actually preaching elements of the message in his sermons, it seems like a very obvious explanation is to where he learned serpency, for example.

Well, the message literature, obviously, it just seems to make sense. But it's odd though, then, that he would not embrace that. He's preaching it, but not embracing the origin of it. So it's a story interesting.

And I wonder what that's about. I know that we have had many conversations about this, or back and forth on Twitter about what could he have been thinking? Did he not know? Did he not care?

Did he want to take 100% credit? I mean, he made a video all about the serpency, right? Nobody else does that. It's a very clear smoking gun that he was taking, at least some of what he got out of those books, some of what he's.

Some of his influence is obviously a message. I mean, in my opinion, as I look at it. Yeah, when I first saw those books, my initial assessment was that he had been influenced by, but I would not call him the message like I would call the cult here, the message.

I used this example earlier before the call, but I used it again. In my bathtub, I've got a ring of rust that has. It's just recently started to appear and it takes time for this to happen.

The water looks clean when it comes out, but it's mixed with impurity. And you don't become radicalized immediately. You have sometimes very good healthy doctrines, but mixed with something that's very, very vile and sinister.

When that combination happens over time, somebody whose mind is not quite working correctly will latch on to the impurity or the very destructive doctrines. And in this case, Serpent Seed, that was my turning point for saying, okay, Charles, we've got to dig deeper in this because Serpent Seed is William Brannum's specific branding of the Christian identity doctrine.

Brannum took the dual seed doctrine of Christian identity and he labeled it with his branding called Serpent Seed. And the fact that Mackenzie was teaching this, it's for me, you know, it's not, I can't say that it's 100% labeling him as a message called follower, but it at least shows a very clear path of influence.

Yeah, that would be my kind of interesting assessment too is basically that he, somewhere he has adapted, he's got a hold of these teachings and somehow he has incorporated that in his overall ideology.

So kind of like we know from William Brannum, right, William Brannum, he borrowed a piece of his ideology from here and other piece over there and he holds together this unique podge podge and tells us this is a message.

And that's very common from what we understand from cult leaders, you know, Reneerie, the Nyxium guy and all the others. They do that very similar, they go out and they find other people who've already done it and they borrow pieces, bits and pieces from here and put it together almost as their own ideology.

I really think that it appears to me that's what McKenzie was probably doing as well pulling bits and pieces from here, pulled together his own unique ideology and one of his major sources was the message.

Can you do see any other messages, I mean other sources of his ideology with other groups? Well, I think now from what, this is just kind of an observation. So we have very early on, there was a website I think called Biter Weeds or Biter Urbs, I can't.

Biter Winner? Biter Winner, there you go. Yeah, they had, there was immediately denials from this group called the Jesus Christians who, again, it seems to be that they are a, you know, a splinter group of David Burke's children of God.

There was a lot of denials and they had connections to them in that article and of course I kind of dismissed that myself when I saw all that and I'm like, well, you know, I don't really know too much about those but, you know, as we know, there are videos of them they're teaching and it doesn't seem to be that they were.

Certainly pulling some ideology from that group, too. I don't have you found anything on that on that in that area yourself Yeah, clearly it's important because it was It was it was included in the The ad hoc senate committee report on chakahola that

They say a westerner or a foreigner gave a sermon at Paul McKenzie's church in Nairobi and

Definitely this was this was just after he was shutting he shut down his church and

He was 2019 yeah, the Hadooma number which is the national the digital national ID, which is supposed to be well as

Their winter or says as one step closer to the mark of the beast. It's not actually the mark of the beast By this time McKenzie had already He he didn't call them sermons they were seminars. I Guess he couldn't legally call them sermons. So he was in Western Kenya where nobody knew him Talking to ignorant people and and he gave the video in which he says

I'm hearing that there are people that don't want to preach Jesus because their children are crying from hunger Let them die. Where's the problem? This was all the same. Yeah, and I can Give you the link. I'll send you the link to that particular video. So this was the same year that a voice in the desert AKA Jesus Christians Also paid a visit now. There's a big controversy over whether they were invited or Whether they just showed up Yeah, so in the future people will have to choose you either choose God and you live by faith

You trust him for food and clothes and everything a Major fear that people have a very big fear is that they will starve if they don't work for money If you don't have like the government they are saying if you don't have a duma card You can't do this you can't do that you can't do the next thing when the mark of the beast comes It says you cannot buy or sell where do you get your food your water your clothes medicine shelter?

To some extent that supports my theory all I have at this point are opinions and theories and which are subject to change based on the information that comes out But yeah, what I what I see and what I know is that when a The group gets radicalized.

Often their sources of influence are multiple. It's not from one single source. What you've described here, that is significant just based on what happened and what was said. But I have to assume, based on the fact that they did have William Branham's literature, and there are other groups who claim that Mackenzie was off and he was learning from other people too.

We don't have the names of those groups, obviously I wish we did. But there were obviously many different influences. This group from Australia just happened to be the one that got caught on camera.

We at the same time have video footage, I'm not going to give the guy's name, but a very prominent message figure who's holding similar revivals or meetings or conventions however you want to call it.

Right there in the same area, not very far from where this happened. You've got all of these different influences, now where in time did Mackenzie get the message literature? How was that related to the Australia?

I don't know. Could the Australia group have given it to him? We also don't know. But we have had a person who was in David Berg's original Children of God's sect who has defected and he is now free, he's escaped from this, that gave us a wealth of information about Berg's propagation of William Brannum's key destructive doctrines which included the end of days doctrines, the ones that apparently it appears that Mackenzie was radicalized with.

So then the question also comes, did the Australian group also hold those because they appear to be a splinter group of even that, so they're one, two, three levels disconnected. All of this influence, you know, you can't say that anyone's source was the radicalization, the full radicalization process, but all of this together combined, it looks like Mackenzie has taken the worst elements of each destructive group that he came in contact with, radicalized that doctrine and then people started dying.

I think the process might have happened sooner though when he got a license for his television studio and then he became a televangelist in effect. And then of course the crazier, more radical, his preachings, the more followers he got.

That's the sense I get. And then it came to a screeching halt when, you know, the very thing that brought him so much fame also led to his downfall because it also caught the attention of the authorities.

And that, that, even though he was let out on, he was arrested, let out on, you know, he decided to kind of go, you know, underground in a way. Yeah. I think Shakahola was underground.

As I was piecing all of this together, the fact that it was underground was also critical to my connecting it to the message. Because when you go underground, when you're thinking that the doomsday is coming, what literature you're going to take you with you to the underground.

And, you know, here we see all of these books from Voice of God recording spoken word. I think is the publication company. Why did they choose that literature, that specific literature? That's a question that I would love to see answered.

We may never have the answer. I will try to find out, you know, I mean, surely those exact booklets must have a copyright date, right? Would they? Yeah, they do have published dates in the front of them.

And we can tell from the, from the, from the covers, some of them are, are the most recent editions. I'll put it that way. The cover art is one way you can kind of date them.

It's the most recent version of cover art on a segment of them, whereas others are the cover art from the 80s. I recognize some of the cover art from the 80s, all the way up to cover art from the 2000s.

So it's a range of age in that literature is pretty interesting. You know, one of the things that you said earlier that has just, this moment has just struck me. You talked about the, the person who gave Mackenzie the literature, the, these were transcripts of William Brannem Sermons.

And what Charles just said is true, thinking back through this covers, some of those covers are very, very new. If you went to buy them today, that's the same exact cover you'd get. But some of them were very old, like my grandparents had some of those covers.

And I'm trying to picture somebody who would give this to Mackenzie, who would have both copies. This was definitely a person who was very, very deeply involved with the message. This is not your casual here, here's some literature I bought.

This is somebody who had the old versions and the new versions. And then they took them to the massacre, which meant these were of value to them. And like I said earlier, he's talking about the Serpent Seed doctrine.

There's this question as to whether or not, I know his TV license got pulled and there's some other things that happen. I'm wondering if the authorities had linked the Serpent Seed to the white supremacy in the United States that it stemmed from.

What are your thoughts in general on the, you know, Mackenzie's teaching of the Serpent Seed? Well, uh... That, that's the aspect that to this day, you know, has me flummoxed because, you know, I have learned thanks to your reading about William Branham and you too, you know, that the serpent seed is a racist breed and, you know, why is a Kenyan preaching it?

Now he made a video, it's all about the serpent seed, but it really addresses, you know, education is bad, the UN is bad, sex is bad, okay, it doesn't go any farther than that, there's no, any, you know, there's nothing about British-Israelism or, you know, it really doesn't, it's not spelled out the implications, you know, that Eve made it with Satan and begat the blacks and browns of the end Jews of the world. Although, funnily enough, you know, ever since I started posting stuff on my Facebook, public page, I have Kenyan Branhamites communicating with me.

And now I've asked them about the serpent seed and they say, well, you know, all Arabs are from Satan and so on, you know. So, I still have further to explore with these guys on that particular subject, but I don't know, like I was saying before, I don't know if Paul McKenzie chose to omit that part of the serpent seed or didn't, was ignorant of it or knew about it, but didn't need it, obviously, for obvious reasons, didn't see any reason to go there because it would advance nothing, you know, for him, I wouldn't think.

Yeah, and that's one, as I was analyzing what he said, that's actually one of the things that drove me further to look at the connection between him and Branham because the serpent seed doctrine that Branham taught, Branham removed the words black and Jew from it. He took the Christian identity, racist theology, took out the words black, took out the words Jew, but he's teaching the same thing in his theology. He's anti-education because remember the timeline, Branham is saying these things during the heat of the battle between the integration of school, public integration of schools and the, you know, the protesters

who were not wanting to racially integrate. So, he's against education, he is against the National Council of Churches, the United Nations, he's against any form of organization in hierarchy. So, Mackenzie is saying exactly what...

Brannum said in his Brannum's overall art overall theology not just in his one single serpent seed sermon which led me to believe in its my opinion that he has studied Brannum a lot more than he is letting on I think it was not worthy to that McKenzie in those serpent seed sermons just like William Brannum said the Catholic Church was the serpent seed which is one of the ultimate conclusions of Brannum's servancy theology is the Catholic Church is the servancy and McKenzie does follow that same logic too very very interested the great horror I mean I had no idea you know I went to a Catholic

school and I had no idea it was so much the enemy Christianity well specifically the racist version of Christianity the KKK a lot of people don't realize this the clan was not just against the people with black skin they were in the state of Indiana they were actually more anti-catholic than they were anti-black and Indiana had the largest clan back in the was of the 20s so even that points to William Brannum because that's one of Brannum's primary theologies right before doomsday come the the Catholic Church is going to rise into power as the beast

and McKenzie is saying the exact same thing there's so many message fingerprints on his theology I mean I guess I just wonder I mean did McKenzie think to himself look at this stuff I can radicalize people I can get a lot of followers I wonder you know did he start out with this sort of intention or as a kind of a manual like you say even to Shaka Hola you have very cared for booklets from William Brannum so the message meant a lot you know was it a recipe or was it something near and dear

was a true believer I would love to know the answers to those things it's a big mystery well you know we're soon to find out it on February 6th we will court will be determining will tell us whether McKenzie he will have had tests mental assessment test find out whether he's mentally fit to stand trial for murder are other people being charged besides McKenzie so many there there are I think it's total ninety five people and they're there they're all men women suspects uh... i mean uh... rescue he's turned suspects that were found at shaka hola alive

and that would talk and it still don't you know i'm also speculating here And it's not even an opinion, it's just speculation, which I usually avoid on the podcast, but it's relevant, so I will.

I came across a news article where the government had, they had invaded what appeared to be a home church. In the message there are these tape home churches where they listened to tapes of William Brannum, and the authorities had invaded them because they were holding this thing that was not commissioned by the government apparently.

And so they invaded a Brannumite sect in Kenya with all of these people being charged and with their connection to what could be perceived as an extremist religion by some. I'm wondering if the denial was just simply to say, no, we're not from anything that could be perceived as extremist.

All of this came from McKinsey, and he is our source, he is our central figure, eliminating the possibility for tying links to other extremist organizations. It's interesting you should say that because I was reading about one group who was just saying, you know, we don't want to be linked to McKinsey, whatever he did, we had no idea about any starvation, you know, in the desert.

Whoever was radicalized by McKinsey, and whatever McKinsey was radicalized by was a result of his own private thoughts, his own interpretation, so thereby distancing this group with him. So in other words, you could easily say the guy was not, he had a screw loose, otherwise, I mean, I'll never forget when Charles told me once that the, I thought it was a great analogy that, you know, you could look at the Brannum teachings and maybe other similar teachings as a kind of like a weapon in and of itself.

It's harmless, it's just a weapon, it's just there. It can't kill anybody, but all it tastes is, you know, a bullet, and that bullet can be the form of a psychopath. Yeah. And then you have the perfect match.

That's a very good analogy, you know, like I said, when I first started looking at this group, I thought I would not call them a message called. But we have been in contact with escapees from other sex and subsects of the message wherein a person who had that loaded gun, they also had a mental health condition of some sort and they became radicalized, or maybe they just simply had narcissistic personality disorder.

They became radicalized and their group became so extremist that the main sect of the message that the primary You know the the primary root of the message would disavow the splinter group Yet the splinter group is teaching the exact same theology But it's emphasizing the destructive parts the destructive parts are all there They're just emphasizing the destruction the parts that are destructive So reinforcing it just Absolutely Over and over and over again For me, you know having not met him in person, you know all you have is his video and his actions, right?

You know the pit bitch you hear My thought is He probably started out as somebody who was on the same side of things he probably started out as somebody who I even started out as a true believer Um Somewhere along the way I think I would say he's probably someone who cracked he cracked somewhere along the way and lost it I would say he's probably mentally deranged To at least at least for a period of time when he did that stuff he had was almost I would think in some sort of a mental derangement And then he's got the loaded weapon of

His ideology to kill people with right so he's like a madman with the weapon and Unfortunately, he killed a whole lot of people with it not not too terribly dissimilar to people who have mental derangement and Go into schools, you know here in America do things. So it's not terribly different. He's just got a different sort of weapon Premeditated. Oh, yeah, I think he pre-med yeah, he thought it through and he pulled it off My opinion is somewhat different, but I'm gonna speak on behalf of all of the people who are in our support groups who

Are going through the process of deconstructing and deprogramming There's a deep level of mind control in these types of destructive groups, and that's why they radicalize and how they radicalize is Each unique in their own way. You can take the same Set of foundations that Paul McKinsey had and another group may radicalize in another way that's not deadly, but they're still radicalized and What I've come to Understand is it is like a train Bearling down the tracks and suddenly there are no tracks the train might go straight ahead it might go off a cliff You really don't know, but there's no there's no there's no tracks. It's it's just barreling ahead

I have the unique perspective of having been in brand-um churches from Arizona to South Carolina and everywhere in between and I knew many of these churches Before we move to one of the locations. I'd listen to some of these sermons and Then when I move there, there was a progression of difference and I have a very analytic So I always, even as a child, I was curious of the variants.

Why is it different? And after gradually changing into an adult, I started to realize that some of these things are progressing in different ways, and that's why you have all of these different splinter groups of the message.

William Brannum had no consistency. In fact, he had multiple varying stage personas with sometimes polar opposite doctrines. So one group may focus on one set of doctrines, the other one may focus on the other.

Well, they both, in some cases, they're both destructive, but they gradually produce different results. So in my opinion, I don't see Mackenzie as holding a loaded weapon and saying, hey, I can use this and I can radicalize people and I can make money.

I actually see him as a genuine person who thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's using the wrong thing to do it and doesn't recognize that combined with the fact that he probably does have some sort of either a mental health disease or disorder, that combination is what becomes catastrophic.

But anyway, I'm very excited that we had you on the show, Margot, and I want to do this again soon. I don't know if you'd be willing, but I'd love to do this again as we get more information.

I have those. Part two almost ready, and so. Excellent. Well, we'll have you back soon, and for our listeners, if you've enjoyed the show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org and ChristianGospelChurch.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Branum in his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and AuraBall.

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