Mike Bickle and IHOP Sex Scandal

Hello and welcome to another episode. Of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley and today we're discussing a topic that we usually don't investigate but we have been receiving so many emails and I've even had phone calls concerning the incident that has happened with Mike Bickle and IHOP and Charles I was talking to you and you know briefly trying to figure out what do we do to help the people because there I think I have three emails in my inbox today that's that's how this has been coming it's kind of crazy but talking to you Charles and you said you were being contacted as well so I thought it would be good if we just took some time out of our day and

and talk through what's happening and maybe give the people some encouragement because I know exactly what they're going through we went through it years ago my family we escaped January 1st 2012 and we thought our lives was over it it was it was a really hard time I can laugh about it now because I'm I'm on the towards the healed side of this thing although I still get triggered from time to time but anyway I thought it would be good if we talk about it Charles and you are the perfect person to bridge the gap between where we came from and the IHOP situation

yeah John well it's a glad to be able to have our opportunity to chat about it too yeah I've had quite a number of reach out it's kind of surprising I think they found us through the you know episode I think like 48 49 50 that we recorded in the podcast series where we we're talking about how the message how the message influenced other groups and maybe we could recap that just a little bit for for listeners if you want the full thing you go back listen episode 48 49 50 right in there and you can you can get it but you know in a nutshell the teachings of the Kansas City

profits are deeply influenced by the message where you and I come from John we are a granddaddy in a lot of ways to the ID Theology, our group was a granddaddy to the ideology that they have in multiple ways.

The IHOP was started, I don't know exactly when the group itself came together, but there was at that time a man named Paul Cain who was one of the most prominent of the Kansas City prophets.

Well Paul Cain was a right-hand man to William Brannum from the early 1950s and Paul Cain was continuing to preach in message churches through the 80s, 90s, and into the 2000s, John. The same years that Paul Cain is going to the Toronto Blessing conferences, going to the Vineyard Movement conferences, going to do it all with his stuff with the Kansas City prophets.

The exact same years that he's doing that, Paul Cain's still coming around the message churches. I think it was the early 2000s, for sure was the last time he was at Tucson Tabernacle, for example.

So we were with Paul Cain in the same years that he was launching the third wave of Pentecostalism in that sense when he was in the message. So the ideology that they have, I just, I really think they don't know a lot of them where it came from, okay?

They have a, they have a flavor of the latter-rain movement that's deeply impacted by the influence of William Brannum on Paul Cain. So anyways, Bob Jones, who I believe is kind of the guy who started IHOP, before Mike Bickle kind of took charge, he was also deeply influenced by the latter-rain with a lot of the exact same ideology.

And the truth is, if you just take the name William Brannum and you kind of lower him down a few notches from, you know, maybe back him away from being Messiah, maybe come a little bit lower than Elijah, right?

They think William Brannum a little less than Elijah, then our ideology is very highly compatible with what they believe at, you know, in those places. And so much of it similar, like you take Bill Hammond, he created what the, what do they call that?

The Elijah class or the Elijah, it's not like the Elijah school, but it's like an Elijah group of prophets, like the Elijah school of prophets. And so, and so much of it is just so deeply based on what you find in the message.

And so, just from an ideological standpoint, I think that we very strongly relate to just the basic beliefs of the Kansas City Prophecy. Yeah, I would agree. I'm getting a lot of that, you know, and Elijah is not the only name, they, one person was emailing me, there's all kinds of variations on it, like the new Malachi ministries, I'm not going to give the names of these organizations, but they're using words like Malachi and Elijah and essentially what they have and, and actually one person, they've done their homework at this point, they've escaped and they've done their homework, but they were pointing

out that this was all the manifested sons of God framework, that these, all of these entities are built upon. So I'm getting Some of that, and people are actually diving into the research, and they're getting the history, and they were aware that William Brannum and the Laterane Movement was sort of a grandfather to what they came from, maybe a great grandfather, to what they came from.

They weren't aware that many of the doctrines were so prevalent in the Laterane Movement, and so many of these new guys, they're claiming these new spiritual revelations, and as they're going to table.brannum.org, which is the transcripts for William Brannum, they're starting to realize, wait a minute, these guys are just copying bad theology from William Brannum, and then they've taken a step further, and they found out from our work, from the podcast, and some of the research you have on your website and mine, that not only is a bad theology, there's a large amount of fiction, and we've been going through the connections to mysticism

with Steve Montgomery, and they're learning that, wait a minute, this isn't even Christianity, what was this thing I came from? So I'm getting a lot of that, but I'm also getting, there are people who were either abused or got very fortunate they did not get abused because their peer group were getting abused by the situation, and I'm not going to take sides in it because for Christian organizations, all of these groups seem to be very happy to fill in lawsuits, so I'm just going to say that there are some accusations, and I think everybody is aware of what's going on,

if you go out to the news, you can see there are some sexual misconduct accusations that have been going around, and so I'm getting the group of the people who are looking at history, but I'm also getting people who are starting to realize that there is a repetitive reoccurring situation where people are being physically, sexually, spiritually abused, and in all of this, and I actually was on the phone, I can't give the people's name obviously, but I was on the phone for, gosh, it was like one to two hours talking to somebody, and they were talking about it, and the thought just suddenly struck them, the biblical aspect of

this is by their fruits, you will know them, and they can see this same fruit recurring, over and over and over, and in the end, the person finally said to me, what was this? This wasn't Christian, he said something to that effect, what was this? This wasn't Christianity, and we got to talking, and anyway, I think it would be good if we were to just go over a little bit about what this was for people who haven't yet done that research, because like I say, I'm getting emails from this, and I'm also getting charles on

of you've been getting this, but in the months before this happened, I was actually, I started getting contacted by people connected to the ministry. And it was very odd because they were very clearly fishing.

And by that, I mean, they were saying things and not giving me enough information to talk through it. And they were looking to see what I would say, probably wondering how much I already knew.

And I'm not going to tell them that. So I just, I kind of let it go. I answered very simply and I want to say I was contacted at least, gosh, I want to say it's at least seven to ten times by people who are connected to this.

And this is before the news broke out. So you could tell something bad was brewing and at that point in time, I didn't want to say whether I knew or not, but I will say now that I can understand why they're contacting me.

Yeah, John, it's something else, just how all this stuff unfolds. You know, we, we did what a 70 episode podcast kind of on the history of the message. And hey, if you guys are in the Kansas City prophets, the history of the message is the history of your movement because your ideology has the same roots, right?

You're, you are a branch of the Laterane movement, which is descended from the British Israelite branch of Pentecostalism, okay? That is where your Elijah beliefs come from. It's the fusion of British Israelism and the Pentecostalism from the late 1800s and then you know, John Dowey to the four square side is where a lot of that pooled into the four square denomination was kind of a home to the British Israelite ideology coming up into the 40s.

Then as you come into the 50s, it just all kind of got booted out of there and ended up in the Laterane movement, which then eventually produced the message, it produced a lot of other movements too.

It produced the walk, it produced the move, it produced just quite a number of different groups besides the message. And then of course, Paul Cain, through his influence, a lot of that was, was carried on into, yeah, the Kansas City prophets.

Let me point real quick to a book to people. This is a wonderful book called The New Charismatics by Michael Moriarty. I would highly recommend looking into this book. This is going to give you, if you're from the Kansas City prophets, types, a good history of where your ideology came from.

This was wrote in the 90s, right when your movement was kicking off and the people that knew what was happening then wrote this book and it's very good in that way. And I know, you know, what probably close to a year ago, John, we recorded our episodes talking about the influence of the message and Laterane into the Kansas City prophets.

And when we did that at the time, you know, we noted we don't really know anybody personally in the Kansas City prophets, you know, other than, you know, our limited interactions with Paul Cain when he was in message churches or reaching out to us, we really never had any direct connection to them.

We didn't have too much to say other than we just pointed out, we were very concerned for them. Right? I mean, they have all of the, that ideology contains everything you need to produce a destructive cult, right?

It has within positive confession. It has the brainwashing thought control techniques. That's what positive confession is. It's training yourself to believe something that's not true. So with the positive confession, you have just the core framework of the thought control that you need to produce a cult.

And after that, you know, the next notable thing they have is they have the fivefold ministry, right? And the fivefold ministry gives you an authoritarian, unaccountable leadership model, right? So now you've got two of the critical pillars for a cult.

You've got an authoritarian leadership model and you also have a thought control, okay? Now you can find that with the third piece, right? You're chasing manifested signs of God. So now you've got your carrot on the stick.

That's the third thing you need to produce a destructive cult. So you've got authoritarian control, brainwashing, mind control, and you're chasing a carrot. And within that framework, horrors, horrors can ensue. And that is what we have seen everywhere this ideology has went quite frankly.

Whether you look in the walk, whether you look in the move, whether you look in the message, whether you look in the way, and hey, they all got catchy names, right? But everywhere it goes, it produces horrors.

It produces horrors. And of course, we don't know what's going on behind the closed doors that I hop, but everything is there to produce the horrors. And yeah, it sounds like it's really coming out into the open here lately.

And here's what I know, John. So we know, of course, John, you and I know that Paul Cain, you know, we know going back to the early days of the message when Paul Cain was still with William Branham, you know, part of his inner circle at times, Paul Cain moved to Arizona at the same time that the deity cult relocated to Arizona as well.

And we know in that period of time, there was tortures and molestations of children and horrible things happening in the park from the mid and late 60s at that period. Paul Cain moved there at that time.

We don't know directly how much he was related to those things, but we've documented how there were a lot of homosexuals in William Branham's inner circle, Paul Cain being one of those homosexuals. And then he went into hiding more or less.

He disappeared when William Branham died, not precisely sure why. I've heard different stories, but I'm not really sure what happened. He just disappeared when William Branham died. He resurfaces. And when he resurfaces, he resurfaces with Bob Jones and the Kansas City prophets.

Now, Bob Jones, who started that group, he did the same thing. He ended up in trouble. I want to say in the early 1992, he ended up in trouble with sexual misconduct with people in his church.

1992, he's passed... away now, Bob Jones, and he ends up succeeded by, and they were working with John Wimber at that point, right? They were still, they were in, with the vineyard movement and all that, and I think John Wimber is the one who uncovered Bob Jones' sexual misconduct in the early 90s. So he ends up, you know, pushed out and stepped down, but it seems like now the whole thing behind the scenes, the whole time was always just some sort of a weird sex thing going on there, and it seems it's reported now that, again, we don't know firsthand, it's just reported, right, that Mike

Bickle was having relations with children as young as 14 years old, almost that far back, right? And so you've got Paul Cain, a, you know, his sexual misconduct, you've got Bob Jones, his sexual misconduct, you've got Mike Bickle, his sexual misconduct, so the key Kansas City prophets are all sex perverts. And that is who is running this, running this movement, of course it's all behind the covers, but now it starts to come to light. And the witnesses that have contacted me, the word grooming was used, which is something that, I think that was the Naomi Wright series of

videos that we did. We had the, you know, the free and clear show dot com, we had the free and clear podcast episodes I did with Naomi, and you and I interviewed Naomi, and she was talking about women being groomed in the random cults. And I think that struck home with a few of the ladies who were connected to whatever was happening. Again, I'm not going to say that it did or didn't happen because these, these groups are lawsuit happy. And it, it just goes to show even that, even the fact that I have to say that shows that there's something wrong here. This is not true

Christianity. True Christianity doesn't fling lawsuits over things like this. They try to make, you know, some accountability. They try to make it right. But one of the resources that would be really helpful for people who are escaping this is freedomofmind.org. And you can look through Dr. Stephen Hassan's descriptions of what makes a destructive cult, because what's interesting about a cult and I've worked with several different splinter groups of the message and even groups that weren't even connected to the message at this point. And each one will have their outlandish belief that they will stick to some of them even after escaping

the cult. They'll still believe it because they have been hardwired and programmed in the mind to believe it. And other people and other sects or cults will look at that same belief and they'll say, well, that's nonsense. How can you believe that? While they have something different that they believe that, you know, group A doesn't understand that. And Dr. Stephen Hassan has the bite model.

It's all about controlling your behavior. controlling and manipulating the information and Thought control thought manipulation thought reform

Emotional control they love to target your emotions in these groups They love it because if they can target your emotions, they can draw you into the rest of the other attributes but they like I said one group will Misunderstand won't believe the other groups weird thing whatever is the thing that they've been taught and What's interesting about IHOP is with Paul Kane being connected to it if you go back and study the history of Paul Kane Not only is he in this deity thing you can go to YouTube and you can type in the name Ronald coin or

Boy with the plastic eye and you can see Paul Kane traveling with this This roadshow where a boy has one good eye and one plastic eye and he's claiming that God has given him a power to see through his plastic eye and They put you know they cover his eye up and Again, these people are so happy. I'm not gonna say it's true or not, but I have heard people witnesses who were Involved with watching what was happening and you know if you cover your plastic eye You know you looking straight at me. It looks like it's covered

But if I've got a little gap right here. I can see pretty much everything and I'm told and again. I'm not I'm not gonna say it happened because I don't want to be sued But I'm told that Paul Kane and Ronald coin were aware that they had been called out on the gap between the eyes So long story short, they had a magician's trick and that's the kind of religion that this whole thing is They love to have a gimmick. They love to have a magician's trick if they can trick you and They can apply the bite model behavioral control

information thought control emotional control that combination will suck you in and Rewire your brain where you are trapped in this thing mentally and then this escaping that mental Those mental change that they put around you is very very difficult. Yeah, I think that's one of the The most important thing to do when you you come out of a group like this, you know, and if you're waking up Is to is to understand how they did this to you? How did they how did they pull this off? How did they trick you?

Right how did they get you to surrender? You're free will to them all most, you know, how did they do this? Right and understanding how they pulled that off is so important and to keep you from being able to fall back into the same thing again Right, I mean one of the biggest risks you have coming out of a group like this is that you're gonna say well my It was just my leaders. They were just corrupt. Oh, it was just Paul Kane. Oh, it was just Bob Jones Oh, it was just Mike Bickle and what happened they went from Paul Kane to Bob

Jones, Bob Jones, you know, they keep revictimizing, right? But you got to wake up and realize, no, wait a minute, right? Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I need to rethink this whole thing.

How did they do this to my mind and not go jump in bed with another person doing the exact same thing to your mind, right? You need to wake up, realize the framework that enabled this and escape that framework, right?

Don't just go find a new person preaching something similar to what you heard without actually taking the time to kind of re-analyze it, don't figure out how you got into that mess to begin with, right?

I mean, don't leave one authoritarian structure and go to another. Don't leave one mind control cult and go to another. Don't leave, you know, chasing the manifested suns of God care here and go chase it somewhere else.

You want to get away from that. Break that cycle, figure out what it was, right? And that's going to enable you then to be able to find something healthy. And I think one of the most important things to do is you got to, I know where we come from, you got to turn off the tapes.

You got to stop listening to it, right? Turn off the tape, do not listen. They know how to push the buttons. They know how to, they may not even know what they're doing, but they are masters of thought control, right?

And they're, and you've been in there a long time, your program, you've got to get away from that thing, quit listening to it, right? And try to figure out how they did that to you so that you can keep that from happening to you again.

Yeah, and I think the best advice that I can give having gone through it is simply learning from the mistakes that I've made. Because whenever I left this cult, it was messy. It was really, really messy because I left it sort of not even of my own, my own doing.

I was just simply asking some questions and they kicked me out. And I was really, I was trying to prove, was William Brenham true? Was he a true prophet? And you could tell by the lack of accountability for the questions that there was a problem there.

And I was kind of thrown into this, right? And being thrown into it, I truly wanted to help other people. And that's the number one thing that happens for any of the groups, any of the people that I've worked with who have escaped a cult.

After you realize that you have been bruised or pressed, spiritually abused, sometimes sexually, physically abused, there's this instant thought, why I need to help other people because other people are going through the same thing.

And they'll instantly try to do it, but the problem is, if they don't take time to heal themselves, it gets really messy. And I can say, you can look back on my history. I can tell you that from my own experience, it gets messy.

You need to take some time to heal yourself. Now, there are cases I understand where you have to die. been in help. I'm not saying don't do that. But when you have the opportunity, get the help that you need. These people, I don't know how it is in the eye hop. I know in the sect of the message that I was in, it was that way. But these people are strongly against any form of therapist. They do not want you going to a psychologist, a therapist, a counselor, psychoanalyst, psycho therapist, any of these different professions because many times these

professions will detect that you're in a cult and then they will try to get you out. So they want to put up a barrier where you're not doing that. And they'll put a mental barrier. Often you'll find that there will be approved counselors. You can go to this set of counselors, but don't go to these others because they, they're not Christian or they're not the same kind of Christian.

And do you do this with a doctor? I mean, if you need to go to a doctor, I've been to, I've been to everywhere from Muslim doctors to Christian doctors to atheist doctors and who delivers my shot.

I really don't care as long as I'm getting the shot. So my advice is if you need therapy, go to a therapist. Now, if you're, if you're remaining Christian, it is good to get a Christian therapist. I'm not, I'm not saying that's bad at all. But oftentimes you'll find that some of the Christian therapists do not understand cults. And I've even seen from our own support groups, this is another thing that we've experienced. Sometimes the people who have been bruised by Christian ministers have an incompatibility with a Christian therapist because the therapists themselves are triggering them as they leave. And so sometimes it's better to step away, get healed and then

go to a Christian therapist if that's where you're headed. So my, my advice is don't make the mistakes that I did. Get healed, you know, before you go out and try to help people and try to, you will find if you're in one of these destructive groups, you'll find that there's a deep level of indoctrination that you're not aware even happened. And five years from now, you'll say, well, I was so much different then. And five years from now, you may still have some of that pro, effects of that programming in your head or even still some of the programming. And then 10

years, just say, well, five years ago, I was still a program. That's exactly what happened to me and many of the people that I'm working with. So it's a progression of time. What I did, and I can truly recommend this if you remain Christian. One of the things that I did was I read the Bible, cover to cover, and I lost count between 10 and 15 times. But I tried to read it for what it said, not for what I had been told that it was said.

exactly what does it say read nothing else into it not even reading you know people have this habit of reading say the gospel by reading it and thinking about another gospel and the problem with doing this is many times you've been told what that other gospel says and it may not even say it I read the text for what it said nothing more nothing less and just went cover to cover over and over and over and after about five times this is a different book man this is not even the same book that I had when I was in the cold and all I'm doing is

just reading what it said I know for me when I left John and maybe this is kind of a personal thing I don't know if it's no good we can cut it out but I know for me when I left you know like the hardest the hardest thing is it with the messaging doctoration and it's probably I should expect it similar here is you know you you believe you can't make it without the present truth you write without the message for your hour right what and you you believe that these leaders this fivefold ministry right are the dispensers of that and you you

really in your mind even though it might not be something you ever is ever infatically stated or explicitly stated you hold the belief that you cannot make it without these leaders and without this ideology that they're giving like you you believe that in yourself at some base level you believe that and that produces just so much fear it produces so much control over you and finding a way to break that is so important and you know I came to the point so John I had was out of the cult for several months before I you know I

could even let myself you know think the four-letter word that it was a cult right I think I was out six months before I could even say you know our prophet had been a false prophet right like it it you know you you your mind the mind control is so strong right you like you almost can't even allow yourself to begin those thought patterns and but you know coming to realize that there is not there's there's no one else that saves you but Jesus right I mean Jesus is it you don't need you don't need your cult leader you don't need that guy in the

middle that's up there dispensing the present truth to you you don't need that right they've tricked you they've tricked you they've they've made themselves your savior right and that's the for if you can throw that one away that's one way to break the indoctrination you don't need them to make it right you don't they've tricked you into thinking you need them to make it and then the whole present truth thing right that's really just a nostic idea that you're saved by understanding mysteries or understanding knowledge which again is not biblical Christianity right biblical Christianity is your saved by faith and Christ so

they have they have without often explicitly stating it they have bastardize the gospel, you know, into inserting themselves as your Savior in some role, and also making you think in some way these mysteries or whatever they're teaching you is necessary for your salvation rather than simple faith in Christ. And so from a just a purely Christian aspect, realizing that they have hijacked and destroyed those things can give you the freedom to then go look and consider something else, I think. So yeah, there's a reason why these are called high demand groups. They they demand, especially mentally, they they demand your thoughts at all time.

You have to be thinking and they they create this urgency. It's very urgent that you whatever you call in your group, this revelation, this present truth, you know, they even name the organizations after this, which is absurd when you really break it down, but they want this false urgency so that they can keep you contained. If they can keep your mind focused on urgency, you're not thinking critically, you're not thinking logically, and you're really not thinking about what happens if you leave the group, because there's never going to be a need to leave the group, it's urgent, there's an

urgent sudden and impending doom coming, and you have to be in this group, right? I don't care what flavor of the cult or what, you know, we're talking about the IHOP group and that is a somewhat of a descendant from William Brannum in the latter reign. Well, even if it wasn't connected to this, the way a cult works is the same way. It's it's almost like a cookie cutter framework of how to create a destructive cult. They want to keep your mind captive, and if they can keep you, your mind captive with the urgency, they have you in their grasp and you can't get out of it.

So what happens is when you leave it, you leave the high demand group with the same urgency, and so people are scrambling. I'll guarantee if I haven't read all of the emails that I got today, I still have to go through them, but I guarantee every single one of them is exactly like the person who I talk with on the phone. Where do I go from here? What do I do next? There's an urgency, right?

Because they've programmed you to be that way. And in the end, when you leave, you have to somehow rewire that first. That's the first thing that you address. It's not urgent. Go and find a place, first you have to heal, but once you heal, then you have to find who is your identity because you've taken on the cult identity, you have to deconstruct that and find yourself and find, you know, the person who called me, they're asking, well, what church group do I go to, denomination?

That's a question I never answer because every single person is different. But what I do say is try a few of them. It's not... urgent. Go to one church if this isn't for you. Find out why. But before you leave it, find out what you liked about it. Because the other thing that I've learned, which we weren't allowed to, is I can go to any group. I don't care who they are. We were indoctrinated heavily against Catholicism.

I've not been to a Catholic church, but I guarantee you I could go to a Catholic church because I have Catholic friends who are in the Catholic church. And I can learn something from the Catholic church. I'm not going to agree with it because I'm not Catholic. I'll probably never be Catholic.

But I can learn something from them. And it doesn't hurt you. It's not urgent. Go learn whatever the group that you're going into. Go learn what you like about it. Learn what you dislike.

And then critically think about why you don't like it. Critically think about why you did like the other thing so that when you go to try out the next church, you can find a fit for you.

And that's literally what you're doing. You're trying to find your place, your footing in this world. And it's a journey. It's a journey that you're not going to make immediately. I know for myself, there was a period of time when changes were coming so rapidly. I was deconstructing my cult identity.

And with it, I was deconstructing all of the false doctrine. And I found that this doctrine was built on this other doctrine, which was built on this other doctrine. And the deeper I dug, I would find false doctrine, but there'd be a whole stack of other doctrines built on the false doctrine. And when you take down the one at the bottom, the whole top comes crumbling down, right?

And so it got to the point where things were changing so rapidly that what I believe one week wasn't even the same as what I believe the next week because I had just taken out deconstructed entire frameworks of doctrines. And I think you'll find that after you leave one of these high-demand groups, you'll find the same kind of thing. It, some people, it's really fast. I took it somewhat slow.

I would say there was a period of about maybe six to seven years where I was really just deconstructing slowly and slowly trying to reconstruct, but not, you know, I'm a lot slower than a lot of the people I'm working with in the support groups in that I am still at the very early stages of reconstruction. I have broken everything down, I've taken pretty much everything away that is completely false doctrine. And I just started with something that I knew was personal to me.

And then I started building on top of that and I started building up what I believe. And I think that that's the best advice I can give. It's not urgent just, you know, take your time, learn, get your footing, get solid footing, and move forward.

That's great advice, John. That is so good, because you know, when I had left, I started, I don't know, maybe I'm maybe not duck, but I would quote, I just read in my mind over and over again, John 14 again, you know, let not your heart be troubled. And really the whole point of that, you know, let not your heart be troubled, Jesus saying, you got me, you got enough. You'll figure the rest out. It's going to be okay, right?

That's really the whole point that Jesus really is making through there. You got the basics, you got your Savior, you're going to be fine, and the rest is all going to work out, you know, with time.

I like to what you said there about, you know, the urgency that the leaders try to create. You know, the one thing I am almost 100% sure that the IHOT people are chasing, is they're chasing the last day revival, right? Now we know all about that, John too, didn't we?

Because we were chasing the last day revival too, weren't we right? Because we're the same ideology, right? And just like the latter reigns chasing the last day revival, and it's always right around the corner.

The revival is about to be here, and you better not miss service next week, you might miss it, right? And whatever this thing is, you know, you're chasing it and chasing it and chasing it, and guess what?

You know, all the people who came up with that idea to chase the revival, they're all dead. It never came, right? The founders of the message are almost all dead, and it never came, right?

It's not this thing, I mean, it is not, it was always going to happen next week, you know, it's always just a month or two or three away, it's always just around the corner, but it never comes, right?

And they keep you on the edge of your seat, weekend, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out, decade in, decade out, and it never comes. Okay? One the world, right? At a certain point, you know, you can start to wake up and realize this thing is never coming, right?

And maybe it is, but hey, these guys have no idea when, because they've been wrong the last 50 times, right? What makes you think they're going to be right the next time, right? So, you know, chasing that, they just, they got you fooled, they got you fooled, right?

And at the end of the day, it's not the last day revival that's going to save anybody, you want my opinion, right? Jesus is going to save you, right? So you're chasing something that you really don't need to make it, honestly.

Hey, everyone loves a good revival, right? I'm sure if everyone's a Christian, they love a good revival, but, you know, last day revival, you know, hey, what if you're in the hospital that day, you think Jesus is going to leave you behind? I don't think so, right?

Like, it don't work that way. So, anyways, that, that, that, that'd be another thing I would throw in there, John. And, yeah, we're all chasing the same revival, right? And where do you guys think you learned that from it? I hope.

You heard it. You learned it from the people from the message, Paul Kane and the other latter in guys. That's where the stuff comes from. you know people have chased the revival long before even so we were in the grandfather or great grandfather to this thing you can go back through history and you can find them chasing the revival decade centuries in the past they're always doing this man and it's always a destructive cult that's doing it time after time after time I actually don't even I know very little about Mike Bickle because my research starts about 1970-ish and then goes backwards

through time I once I realized that the fruit of the tree was bad I got this interested in looking at the new ministries that sprung up after this because I can tell you exactly the fruit they're going to produce and I can look at it all the way back through time you can go all the way back to Gnosticism and you can see the same fruit being produced from Gnosticism and Jewish mysticism all the way into these laterane guys Steve Montgomery if you haven't checked out our converging apostasy podcast series check it out because he is he's bringing together how all of that merged to create basically

the new apostolic reformation today but it came through the laterane it came through I hop in all of these guys but it's the same fruit over and over and over and they use the same strategy over and over and over it's urgent the revival's coming there's no need to give me all your money you don't need all your money because we're gonna have the end of days revival we're gonna have the rapture whatever the group calls it and in the end that's the common framework for all of it give me your money right and you know what's so

ironic is all of these guys are always trotting it out I just got this in a divine revelation from God right this is fresh mana from heaven no it's not it is recycled the same recycled trash for the last 500 years you know I mean it is not right it is not it just it in it in it you know it kind of the point it you know it it really burns me you know to hear the people doing this sort is because it is not right not only can we find the ideology repeat it

over and over and over and over and over again we can actually connect the dots between person to person to person to person to person to person to show how it moved down this wasn't no angels coming down whisper and stuff in nobody's ears this wasn't divine revelations from God these are people copy and stuff they heard and learned from other people and recycling it and regurgitating it over and over and over and you're right John we don't have time to walk through it all you know in this episode but you go back to the

1700s with Jane Lee and the revival of Gnosticism she had the last day revival stuff and how it was gonna bring in the manifested sons of God you go read it she her followers melded in with Joanna Southcott and the British Israelites in the 1800s right the British Israelites John Under Dally was British Israelite, it ends up down with him.

It melds into early Pentecostalism with the British Israelites coming into early Pentecostalism. John Lake, Charles Parham, Gordon Lindsay, were the British Israelites from that same branch, right? They pass it on down into the message of William Branham, they pass it into the latter reign movement.

The early latter reign leaders were British Israelite, you know, George Houghton was British Israelite. And so they pull these ideas in, and then of course in that generation they drop the actual British Israelism itself, but they keep the crazy, last-day revival stuff that they're chasing.

And then it pours into the message, and then from there it pours in, you know, to Kansas City prophets. It pours into the third wave of Pentecostalism into all of that stuff. This is the same ideology, the dots fully connect from every person, one to the next, and you can go back and look at every iteration of this ideology all the way back to the 1700s.

And I know with Steve Montgomery, he's even got some traces of it back into the 1600s, and the late 1500s, you know, through a few more dots connecting for the back, which is incredibly interesting.

But it's just the same ideology iterating, and iterating, and iterating, and evolving, and evolving, and with each generation, yeah, they have their Brownsville revival, they have their Toronto blessing, they have their latter reign. Right, there is something that happens over and over, but it never brings them the thing they're looking for, and it just sets them up on this continual chasing, and what they're looking for never actually comes, because at the end of the day I have to say it's not really Christianity, it's just crazy, nostic ideas that's never going to actually bring anything to fruition, right? You know, hey, you want my Christian opinion, you know, believe Jesus,

and throw all that nonsense away. Yeah, and not just nosticism and mysticism. Steve has taken it, he's opened up my eyes to this, but you can go, you can go to Alistair Crowley, who is one of the notorious devil worshipers, they call them of the, you know, of the days gone by. Not a good thing, not the man that you would want running your church, I'll just put it like that, you can go up on the web, and you can look up who is Alistair Crowley, and you can see it, but some of his ideology,

you can find even in William Brandham's message and going forward, similarities between the two, because it's not a Christian doctrine, you know, I'm not going to say that William Brandham studied Alistair Crowley and stole his doctrine and pledgerized it, because I don't know where he got it, but it is the same thing in many cases, and we're throwing out names and terms, and the thought just struck me, Charles, because when I was talking to the, on the phone to this guy, he was shocked, because apparently this God's Generals book, all of these people read it as like it's a

second Bible or something, this is the, these are the fathers of our faith, and he had just discovered that this is a book of fairy tales, and I guess we should probably throw out that all of these names that we've mentioned, these guys will tell you what each person claimed about themselves.

They're not even going to tell you whether it's true what they claim, but they're going to tell you this man was God's general because he claimed he could do this and this other man was God's general because he claimed or she claimed she could do this other thing.

They're not going to give you the critical information and all of these names that we've mentioned, the thought you suddenly struck me, there's probably people indoctrinated to think that these are good names and just go look them up.

You'll be surprised what you see. We've got, I started keeping tally of all the weird things, but we've got some of these people believe that you could sell people this little seal and if you got the seal you're going into heaven, you're saved to this other guy had Charles Parham, the founder of the Pentecostal faith.

He was caught in the scandal where they had this little elixir that you could pour on rocks and turn ordinary rocks into gold and he thought he was going to get the arc of the covenant and he was selling tickets to go get it.

These guys are not what you think, I'm just going to say it like that. These guys are not what you think and if you were watching a fantasy movie, it would be a really entertaining movie because these guys are many of them are buffoons and you can watch the buffoonery and you can kind of laugh at it when you're disconnected from it.

But when you're indoctrinated to think that our faith came from this and these are heroes of the faith, it's painful and I remember going through that because I didn't have that same lineage. I didn't believe most of this God's general stuff but there were men that I truly believed and respected and thought were Christian founders of the faith and I realized that no these guys are scoundrels and learning that was very painful.

So I know I'm laughing about this. If you came out of this and you're a God's general's fan, then probably I shouldn't be laughing and I apologize. It's going to be tough if you've been trained to believe that.

Yeah, just go slow, don't absorb too much of it at once and just take your time, pace yourself and just study out the history. Hey, our podcast is a great place to start for that too, huh John?

Exactly. We'll put in a shameless plug there, how about that? Yeah, I mean, there's so much there and you're right John, I mean the truth is when you go through the stream of people, hey, I'm not talking about all the Pentecostalism, I'm not talking about all the charismatic, I'm not talking about everybody, right?

But when you trace the people who are the key shakers and movers in this ideology, in this branch of this ideology that embedded itself into Pentecostalism, that embedded itself into the charismatic movement, you're going to find...

that you can go back 200 years worth and they are thieves, killers, child molesters, deceivers, you know, jailbait. I mean there you go down the list, rapists, you know it's it is and almost every last one of them, almost every last one of them. I mean whether it's John Sandford, whether it's Charles John Lake, whether it's Alexander Dowie, you know, it's almost every last one of them was this way. It's unbelievable, right? It is hard to find a clean one in the bunch, right? And you know, I know, I know the message, you know, kind of response to that. Be well, you know,

they accused Peter and Paul of all this stuff and it's all just made up. Give me a break, I mean these people is true though, it really is true. They really did do all of this stuff, right? It was not false accusations. You know, it's so it's just something else and you people that I hop and these other places that are experiencing this firsthand don't think it's all just a trick of the devil. It is not a trick of the devil. It's if anything it's hey it's God giving you a chance to wake up and see what's behind the curtain. And so don't press play on the tape anymore

and go listen, you know, get away from that influence and try to find a way to listen to something that's going to wake your mind up. Yeah. And I think I'm going to give a negative review of our podcast for people who have escaped this. I know Charles gave a plug for it, but this has grown so much what we're doing on William-Branum.org. We have the podcast split actually into multiple series at this point and we have testimony series which may be helpful for people who have escaped this, but we're starting a new series called Weaponized Religion and we're going

back to some of the terms that Charles has mentioned in this episode, the British Israelism. We're also going into the Christian identity side, the political side and I'm going to say right now it's probably not a good place for you to start because that would be excessively painful to learn that the this thing has roots in the white supremacy organizations, the Ku Klux Klan, it's connected to the Nazis, it's connected, connected almost well actually directly to Hitler in one instance. It would be painful to start there. So I'm going to say if you're are checking out the podcast, go look at the revival history series that we did and that's probably

the best place to start and get a feel for that before you dive into Nazis and Klan and all of the stuff that you really don't want to know as the great grandfather of where your movement came from. Yeah that's a good some good advice there John. Yeah and I think it's pretty good.

but there's what, 70 episodes or so, and we start, you know, it probably starts from the late 1800s and traces the movement up into the 60s. So, and yeah, Paul Cain gets mentions in there and a few other people that would probably be remembered by the people around Kansas City prophets, so.

Take it slow. You know, critically think about everything and don't trust anything that you think that you believe. I think honestly that's the best advice I could give because what they have trained you to believe may not actually be in the Bible or it may be slightly twisted so that it sounds like it's in the Bible and maybe halfway is, but it's so far out of context that it doesn't really fit.

Just relearn for yourself and critically think about how you're learning. Take it slow. There is no urgency. The other thing that I did not mention is a lot of these high demand groups, they're very close knit.

And whenever you're in a group where everyone is just in your face, when you leave that group, there is this sudden feeling of loneliness because now you go to a new church that isn't destructive.

Everybody's not in your face and oddly, you want everybody to be in your face when you've been in one of these groups, which is odd. It's, I remember going through that feeling and there's just void that you feel like you're, you know, you feel like you're lonely and sad and that's a normal feeling.

It's a normal, it's normal to go through that experience. That's painful, take some time, heal, go through that and learn that it's not healthy for everybody to be in everybody's business like they are in a cult.

So I think that's the last piece of advice that I'll give and hopefully we've said something that can help the people and, you know, feel free to continue contacting me. I will answer these emails that I haven't today and I'm certain we'll get more so don't feel like it will stop but I thought we would put this out there for all of the people who are desperately seeking help and if you've enjoyed this show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branham.org and Christian-GospelChurch.org. For an overview of the historical research of William-Branham in the Healing Revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William-Branham in his message available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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