Our Stories: An Interview With Nathan Kutz

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org and with me I have my very special guest, Nathan Kutz, former message believer.

Nathan, it is so good to have you on here today to tell your story because you are an example that I used often, not use specifically but this situation in particular where a person has to find themselves after leaving the message.

It's not just simply leaving but you have to find yourself and your story is incredible. You are one of the people who, you know, you went away from God, you came back and it's really good to have you on here to share your story.

So maybe if you could just start by telling us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, sure. So I was born and raised in the message of William Brannum and grew up in a wonderful home.

My family was, let's see, my father would have been, he wouldn't have been born in the message my mother was. But he had been a message believer. I would say probably, I don't know, eight or nine years before they got married.

I think I had that right. But anyway, I was born and raised in the message. I'm from Virginia. I've kind of got a bit of a Southern drama. I think I've lost it some through the years when I was a teenager. My last name was ridiculous.

But I grew up in Southwest Virginia and let's see, I went out of the cell, I grew up in one, two, three, four, five different message churches. Well, no four. Four different message churches.

The fifth one was the one that I moved to after I turned 18. That's how it was. But yeah, grew up in it was born and raised in it. My I have. I guess she would say from a message perspective, sort of a decent amount of family lineage in it.

So to speak, most of my family on my mother's side are still in the message. And my grandparents, they've been in it since the 60s, probably a year or two, I think, after William Branham would have passed away.

And so that's just sort of the background that was in church from two weeks old I believe and didn't leave the message until 2018. Left for good. I left for a period of time around 2014 and due to some circumstances of life, and I, you know, like you said, John, I haven't really...

Well, yeah, I mean, found myself that that is the correct term. I know we... Some people might kind of laugh at that these days because, you know, when some people say that you automatically think about the...

I don't know, let's say the woke movement or something and you, you know, everybody finds themselves or something. But then again, though, in this context, that is the correct term because when you... I'm trying to say this in such a way because I do not want to hurt people's feelings, but at the same time it has to be said, if you haven't forged much of an identity and you...

If you haven't forged much of an identity, your base identity has not been formed off of the Holy Scriptures and Scripture alone. But it has been based off of the Bible and a set of lenses, if you will, and a perspective, a bias, when that's the core part of your identity, because, I mean, as a Christian, if you're a Christian watching this, I think you would agree that the basis of our identity that we would want us and our children to have is Christ and Christ alone.

But when that's not the sole basis of your identity, then at some point the winds of the world will blow it over. It's just, I mean, there's just no two ways around it and so I, you know, things, things in life weren't going well in 2014.

I did leave the message, ended up coming back to the message, and then officially left for good in 2018, so I guess that's the background. I hope I didn't go down some rabbit trails too far.

Yeah, one guy explained it to me. He said when he was in the message, he believed in God, but it was though he were wearing a pair of glasses that had been covered by mud.

He was looking for God, but he could see something, but he couldn't really see what it was, and I think he too left religion altogether, and later started examining himself, and I use that term openly, because that's the best way I can find to describe this.

He went to the process of finding himself, finding who is his identity, and he said, he was like somebody who just suddenly took a rag and cleaned off my glasses, and I still believe, he said, I still believe God when I was in the message, but they weren't really telling me what God was, and the God that they told me about isn't the God that I wanted.

Nope, not exactly, exactly right. So you and I have a similar perspective in that you are one of the people that went to several different churches. I want to hear more about that, because when I was growing up, I could tell that churches were different, but we were trained and manipulated to suppress critical thought. So when you're in a church, and you go and everything's happy, and then for whatever reason, it becomes unhappy, and you go to another place, well, the other place is completely different. In many cases, there are even polar opposites of each other, but you're now in this new place, and you're indoctrinated to

suppress critical thought, and you don't think of why the two are different. You know, looking back now, knowing what I now know, it's due to the many different versions of the stage persona, and what was the agenda of each religious agenda or political agenda of each persona. But I never really understood that in the message. What was that like for you during and after? Were you aware that of the churches, they were so different?

I would say probably, I don't know, eight years old, maybe seven years old.

I mean, I couldn't say that I would have seen much of a difference, but I would say looking back probably from eight or nine years old forward, I could see differences in churches. On the outset, I do want to say, because in this, I want to give credit where credit is to do without sacrificing, without sacrificing truth. To give credit where credit is to do, the churches that I grew up been. I have very fond memories as far as, you know, friends, youth grew, things like that.

I was always, you know, I paid a lot of attention to preachers, to pastors. My dad's actually a minister and oddly enough, I felt to call to minister myself a few years ago. And I'm a preacher, I'm more deigned, have a church plant, but so I don't know, I guess that was there all the time.

But I did notice preachers, pastors, and differences to go over the positives. I do want to start with that because I know sure as I'm sitting here, John, as you're probably, I mean, you know, people hear what they want to hear and, you know, people will take this and say, well, he bashed this or bashed that, or I can't believe he said this or whatever. And so I just want to put a nail in that right away and say that on the outset, as far as dealing from my perspective, and I can't speak for everyone, and you know, rumors run wild no matter what kind of church it is.

But from my perspective, I would say that the pastors that I was most aware of, or familiar with, would have been three while I was a child, and I believe all three of them were very good men.

Two of them have passed away, and I actually missed them dearly. One of them,

all of them, I would say, were got really godly men to their own right for what they knew as far as the Bible. You know, that's what I would say. That's what it came across as.

You know, everyone, you know, we all know that some people are different people when no one's looking. You know, and I've heard other stories of people that have left the message, and I was the way of some stories while I was in the message. I mean, there's bad, you know, there's a bad apple on every tree. And so, you know, one or I don't know, all of those pastors maybe someone had bad, bad associations with them, so to speak. But from my perspective, I didn't have any, I don't really have any bad or negative memories with that. So in the churches, were there cases

where the doctrines were different? The strictness varied from church to church, because everyone knows that message, there's not really like a doctrinal statement per se. There would have been creeds or confessions because William Brannum was against that from my understanding. That's the mark of the denominations and all of that. And so without a statement of belief or creed or confession or even a not really even a systematic theology of any kind. I mean it's every church can vary. I didn't even fully realize until I listened to actually it was Jeff Jenkins' message when he first left the message church that he pastored. I guess

that's been 10 years ago now. But I didn't realize until I heard him say that every message pastor had almost had a different version of the seven seals. And I'd gone the whole life and I just thought, okay, well, yeah, it seals, yeah, I'm preaching to him. And then I heard him say, I was like, wait a minute, what? How can everyone have their own version?

But it not be what, well, wouldn't they have his version? And then if he, well, you know, if he's a prophet of God and all of this, and if God is speaking through him, then wouldn't you want to have his version? And I don't know if somebody's not always remembered that.

That just kind of stuck up and was like, what? So, you know, in light of that, I don't know. And when it came to that, maybe they all had there the pastors that I grew up under. Maybe they all had their own version of the seals. You know, I don't know if you remember these books, but there are these books when I was growing up called choose your own adventure.

And, you know, you could read it and then you'd have different choices. The message I've come to learn was just to choose your own adventure religion. You go to one church and they're going to have a different message than you go to the other church. And like you said, for people who are never in this thing, it'd be hard to understand this. But when you're talking about something as significant as William Brannum's quote-unquote revelation of the seven seals, that is, I mean, without this, there is no message. So the fact that every single minister, you get two of them in a room and they've got two different versions of

what that meant. Get four, you've got four versions. The fact that there is no consistency tells you that it was a choose your own adventure message. Yeah, and I mean, honestly, that right there, I mean, I just have to say...

mean, you know, God is not the author of confusion. You know, that there's just, I have to throw this in there looking back on it, like what you just said right there, John, there's so much that violates the sovereignty of God. But, you know, and, you know, and then said that if everyone puts their own twist and version and manipulation on it, then that's really, and that's an idea, sorry, ideology of your own making, which incidentally, I don't think a lot of people quite realize ideal, idle, you know, you're, you're really sort of forming your own false God, if you will,

at that point. Of course, now, people's going to hear that. Well, we don't have, you know, but no, if you actually think about it and you take someone's interpretation of the word of God, and then everyone then has their own interpretation on top of that, and it's, and I know there's some fine lines there, but at the end of the day, if everyone has their own different version, like you say, you can sort of pick, you know, pick your favorite or whatever they're, it's no different than being in a foreign country where they sell idols in a shop and going and

picking what you want. It's literally the same exact thing. And I'm very glad that you brought up the point that many of us, myself included, we have fond memories of being in the message and fond memories of people. I catch a lot of heat, as you can imagine, because my, I document the critical things, and in doing so, I'm documenting the things that people might find offensive.

And so I get mistakenly labeled as being, I don't know, out to get the message or whatever, it's, it's not so much that for me, I instead want to document the part that they're not documenting. I want to be a counterbalance and truth, right? They, they will tell you everything positive. They will tell you absolutely not one thing negative as a cult leader in this thing.

So I just kind of balance the scales and I catch a lot of heat. But I too have many fond memories. I remember the ministers, some of them were very close friends. Like you said, dear friends of mine, there were some bad things that I came to know later happened with them, but I never experienced them. These were all good men. One of them was my own grandfather. So like you, I share a similar fondness, I guess you would say, I still have to wrestle with the fact that people like my grandfather knew these things. And then for me,

You know, it really comes down to this question and this is this is one of the ones that just burns burns my mind and Plegs me at night because if they knew and they knew that this was I Can't even really call it a false religion because I have trouble calling it a religion Religions have somewhat of a foundation and this thing morphed and changed and Difference each person has different messages. What was this? It's not not even a religion. So what they're promoting Was just you know like I don't know selling the mud that was on the glasses of the guy that I mentioned earlier and they knew this

So the question that I have That I struggle with deeply people like my grandfather are they even saved? Can you be saved and promote this thing that you know is wrong that you know is filled with holes and Sell it to the people as Salvation, but then confuse them as to what salvation actually is to the extent Many of them leave church and they're not secure in their faith enough to know am I even saved?

That's the question that burns me at night John I can I can Sort of almost say the exact same thing. I wondered that myself because I I don't know sort of a hypothesis that I've got is that you know people maybe that weren't born in the message you know Maybe they would have actually became a Christian before that or been saved

You know, and then I guess you could sort of say looking back on it. They would have I

Want to kindly say this in the best way that I can but and I'll honestly through the eyes of scripture would have gone astray So to speak because anything that is contrary To the word of God is not the word of God and so if you're walking in that you're believing that you're being taught that and that's what you proclaim as truth Then that is going astray now, you know, what's in their heart at the end of the day that's between them and God now I mean You know there's been I Mean you know what what I've what I've tried to remember and what I tried to look back on is there's been many

Revivalists, you know, we go back in 1800s or wherever and And they may not have all believed the exactly right things

But at the same time they did the very best with what they had and They may not have even preached all the right things, but what they knew was that God had saved them and they were just doing all they could for the kingdom of God and you know it's like God told Gideon you know I don't see the way that you guys all see you know I look at the heart you guys look at outward appearances so as far as that you know I don't know I have really wrestled with that because I know from my perspective I was born in it I listen to many of William

Brandham's tapes myself I don't know that I listen to every single message but I listen to many many many messages of William Brandham I listen to live stories you know read the books more so listen to the tapes I'm an auditory learner and so you know I actually now looking back on it I know from my perspective I wasn't saved actually authentically saved in the message I now I had an experience but in what in light of what I've learned through scripture and learning about salvation and learning about how you know because we we have to remember this with no matter what it is

is is God in control or is he not you know does he you know is it a like I think you and I've heard you and Charles cover it you know about Brandham talks about the permissive will of God and stuff and and it's like you know is God in control or is he not in control and then not that's the whole other subject but at the same time if we save ourselves we will lose it and I that's just all there is to it if he saves us Jesus said all that the Father gives me I will not lose one

and so so I believe that and I know from pure honesty looking back on my life I wasn't authentically saved I wasn't born again now I had an experience and it was the altar call you know I went up and

and and the thing of it is it was at a church where you know like I said love the pastor dearly and all of that and this isn't a negative mark on him or anyone person per se but this is the influence of you know the Pentecostal influence and the the altar call the revivalistic thing of you know let's manipulate let's say the write things to trigger a response. And it's not even necessarily with the preaching of the word that the conviction comes. If you're convicted under the correct preaching of God's word, then that's the Holy Spirit. If you're convicted, though, from what someone is saying,

and it's like a, you know, you know, if you die tonight without Christ, then I'm not going to say that some of that's not completely the Holy Spirit. I don't want to be misconstrued that way.

But I mean, I think there isn't part of evangelizing where, you know, Paul said by the foolishest preaching men are saved. But at the same time, there's a level of manipulation where, especially with children, you know, I don't want to die in good hell, you know, oh my gosh, you know, oh, that's terrible, you know, and you have these ideas of hell. And you know, then you hear about, well, the rapture and, you know, and, you know, the bride will be raptured away. And if, you know, if you're not raptured, ready. And so, you know, you hear all these

things and it really becomes manipulation. And you're quote-unquote saved by the works of man. You're not saved by the works of God. And so I know for myself, you know, I did that. I was baptized a few months later, Acts 2.38, mind you, which that's taken out of context, unless you're a first century Jew. And, you know, you're standing there, hearing the apostles, or you're, you're the unit that fill up is, that it's not quite the same context. Well, that's the whole other topic too on the whole Trinity and all that. And we're not talking about that today,

but at the same time, there's a reason why Peter said what he did. And I have to thread this in there. That does not necessarily mean that Peter said in the name of Jesus Christ, baptized you.

Because listen, if, if Jesus, if we're to believe that he is the Son of God and he rose from the dead, and then he's ascended to the right hand of God, the Father, the Father, and, you know, Stephen before he stoned literally looks up and sees and says it, then it doesn't make any sense for Peter to not do what Jesus told him to do in Matthew 28. Right. What I have to say this, Acts 2.38, when it says, you know, to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, it's sort of a can to saying like your

We're putting on Christ, you know, that's the white rose, you know, you've been, that's the wedding garment that Jesus talks about and parable there. And you know, that's like saying, you know, it's like, you know, when my wife and I got married, my second wife here, when we got married, you know, she took my last name, you know, and so, but he didn't, but the preacher when he married us didn't say that, you know, I'd marry you in the name of Nates and Coots, but she took on my name.

So I believe that Peter would have said Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but what he was saying and especially too, because they would have been some of the ones that cried crucify him. Okay, I'm done with that, but that has been a thorn in my side ever since I felt the call of ministry. And I look back on these things. It's just like, man, I have got to nail that down along the way. And so, but anyway, you know, I was baptized in the Lord, name of the Lord Jesus Christ. So not trying to step on any toes. Was I baptized in the right fashion? Yeah, I was.

Was I baptized following the right instructions? No, I was not. And so, there was that. And I can honestly say John, I was not really saved because just looking back on it, you know, there's so many things. It's that legalistic asset. You know, I had, you know, I have been coaxed into saving myself. Yeah. And so I had to, I had to keep it myself. I had to, you know, don't do this.

You know, some of the back to your question about the different teachings of three, one to know, all four, all four churches were against televisions. No TV, no, nothing like that.

Three, let's, when I wait a second, three, the, while the internet hadn't really came about. Oh my gosh. Man, I'm getting old. You're aging yourself right now. Yeah, yeah. I got golly. I never thought of like that. The internet hadn't really came about when I was in the first church. Geez. I went to the second church when I was six, maybe something like that. Yeah.

The third church would have been, I wasn't, well, I wasn't a physically a member there, but it was my grandparents church. And I, man, I actually enjoyed. Going there, you know, the people and everything. I enjoyed both churches But I really enjoyed going with him. Of course, he knows you're going with your grandparents. You go out to eat after church That was is now that's one thing the message yet to get right is going after you. Absolutely And go ahead and just go eat all the 2k and after church because you're gonna need it for that night

You know forget to send a gluttony man I have to confess I'm not Roman Catholic dear Lord, but you know, I have to confess I still deal with gluttony That's for sure. You know, it's funny You mentioned the baptism the the funniest thing that struck me after leaving when thinking all of this and I'm not going to get into the Oneness, trinitarian debate on here. It's not the price, but but the funniest thing that did strike me you mentioned how And you said it just like he did if I get married the wife takes the name

That's the example that he used when he put that garbage up The moment I was allowed to critically think and then suddenly it hit me, you know, Christ wasn't his last name The Christ meant to Messiah. It wasn't his last name. So his old Argument the whole argument was invalid But even bigger than that the thing that hit me next was If the word spoken by the minister have the power to Take you to the good place or send you to the bad place Then their words are an incantation. It's nothing more nothing less and

It gets even worse than that Worse than that The God that they're representing is so powerless that their incantation is actually more powerful Then the God that can't protect you because of their incantation When that hit me it was it was like a brick wall man. We served a powerless God and Then I wrestled with the question and I've kind of came full circle because I believe I read my Bible I'm one of the few Christians that did while I was in this thing But the question hit me if our God was that powerful did we even serve the right God?

Do we even believe the right God? I still wrestle with it. However, I did read my Bible. So I had You know, I I'm also one of the few people that the Bible for me was above William Brannum's words There's a large number of people in this thing where that is not the case. Oh Yeah, oh, yeah, and I have to I've got to say something with that

For me I would say that is one of the defining marks for myself The changes I went through from them to now

My I would say my personal view of the Bible in the message Would have been yeah, you know the Bible's God's word and all that and And I mean, it's kind of hard. I wouldn't label the message as KJV only, but at the same time, I mean, it's pretty much just kind of like an unspoken rule. You know, I would never really use anything else. And then, of course, you know, over time, you're just kind of, well, you got to kind of stay away from all those other ones. But, you know, KJV, you can't use the scope field Bible, not another nut. And so, you know,

I've viewed it as the word of God. You know, don't touch it, don't change it, and all of that. At the same time, though, you're not. And I will say this, and I don't care who this would have been. And I'm not trying to make anyone angry. But if you're a message believer, this is a blanket statement. I'm not trying to paint with the wide brush here.

But just by definition, if your view of the Bible is not complete without an external person's interpretation, then you don't really believe the Bible is the Word of God. You can tell yourself that all you want. But just by definition, then you don't.

And then I don't know. I know there was a message minister at some point. I don't know if that, when it was, and it made out of even been necessarily him. But I heard several times throughout the years where basically, you know, I guess it was sort of confronting well, the Bible doesn't say you can't watch TV.

It doesn't say this, it doesn't say that. And it's the comment of, that's why we needed a message. That's why we needed, you know, brother Brandon. I mean, we needed that Elijah to come and tell us these things.

Because we wouldn't have known that without him. And, you know, you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. Because if you're relying on that, that's number one. From, I just want to say at the outset, that's for radical.

Because, you know, if you're saying that this other guy's opinion, word, revelation, whatever is equal to Scripture, when it's in, I don't even know if anyone has, but to count up the amount of times that William Brown contradicted the Bible.

You know, if they're contradicting it, but then you're taking what they say as well. Well, he's the prophet. He's the prophet. So brother Brandon said it. I believe that that sells it, that whole mantra, you know, then that just destroys the view that the Bible is infallible and perfect.

It just completely upends that. And like you say too, well, let me say about the incantation part that you said that ministers will, whereas practically akin to that. And we can talk about that maybe later on, but that is just...

You know, I didn't even realize things like that until literally probably a year ago. You know, thinking about just going back and thinking on those things. It is akin to that. And there's a lot of... I don't know what you would call it, like...

I mean, psychics and people like, you know, people that are in the new age and, you know, practitioners of those types of things, I mean, they do incantations. I mean, it's the same exact thing.

But back to what you were saying about...breeding the Bible. I would read the Bible. It's tough. I would read the Bible. But number one, you know... I mean, even now with... I mean, I can...

I mean, I'm not a professional reader, but I read pretty decent. And even now, going back and looking at the King James some places, I still don't understand what it's saying. And it's just because the language of the KJV is just...

I mean, it's 400 years old. Well, maybe not completely 400, because it's a 1769 edition, but still yet. We just don't speak that way anymore. I'm not throwing stones. I love the KJV, but at the same time, you know, you have to understand what you're reading.

And so that's the thing, you know, when I would read it, I didn't... I technically wasn't reading it. I was just looking at the words and reading over the words, but I wasn't comprehending it.

I didn't fully read the Bible. And namely, the four gospels in their context, methodically taking my time, really soaking it in, until three and a half, three years ago, literally. And so... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I definitely want to get to that and touch on that. That's really, I would say, the crux of my conversion. But, yeah, I mean, I didn't really read the Bible. Very much y'all. And of course, you know, if you did, it's always, you know, what Brainham said, what Brainham said. I mean, Malachi 456, every time you see that passage as a message, believe me, that's what you think. Revelation 107, Luke 1730, you know, and that's the thing, all three of those are just so vastly ripped from their context. It doesn't even, it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything of what Brainham said that it meant.

Yeah, it's so different. And you know, when you leave this thing, you're indoctrinated to believe that number one, God is powerless. Number two, the devil can, you can accidentally lose your salvation. That was the biggest problem for me when I left. You could actually accidentally lose your salvation because of going, right? And when that, that's another thing that hit me like a brick wall in this. There's also this tendency, you and I have known each other for, I can't remember how many years you were in support groups years ago. Yeah. I am different than most of my peers in that when people go through leaving,

there's this, there's this whole process of deconstruction and I call it finding yourself, but basically they're building their identity. And to build it, they've had a false identity created for them, unfortunately, and sadly. So they have to deconstruct that. Then there's this period where it's, it's messy. It's, it's like birth is messy. Well, this is, this is a new birth of an identity. It's messy. And I try to just stay out of the way because these people, some of the people, they may leave God altogether. They may become Buddhist Hindu. It's not my job to tell them where they're headed. And if I believe that God is all powerful

and he's leading the person, he's going to lead them back. But in the message, we were taught that you could accidentally lose your salvation. And so there's this big, I noticed it especially some of the men in the, in the support groups, there's this tendency because you've been manipulated to control and manipulate when they, when they see anybody who's trying to find themselves, man, it's, it's hardcore. No, you can't do this. But you're one of the good examples.

Yeah, you know, I think actually, John, I don't even know if you remember the day that, that I sent you that message. I can't remember how long I guess it would have been at least three months for I was in that support group. But I remember sending you a message that said, you know, hey, you're going back and you know, conflict of interest. I just want to be upfront about it. And then you, I think you literally typed, consider it done. If I remember right on, and that was... there were a lot of other factors there while it went back, but at the

same time that looking back on it, that would have really been the core of it was that... and I say this because it literally just came to my mind. I remember that time frame when people were leaving the message that would have been when believe the sign, I guess, would have really gotten a lot of exposure.

Well, for me and my neck of the was and the church, I was going to at the time. It was this sort of a thing of... wasn't like people were saying like they were making fun of people for finding themselves, but I know a lot of at the time I would hear other message people say, yeah, they feel so free now. They say they feel free.

And like they're out and they've been liberated from it or whatever. And while that's very true, and they're going through that period of deconstructing and then, excuse me, getting back to basics and figuring out what the extra believe.

I think for me at that time, one of the reasons why I would have went back. And I'm going to say this because I think it illustrates it very well, and I know as soon as I'm sitting here, this is going to make people very mad because of what it implies, but it's still true.

I think it was Stalin that... I can't remember who exactly I heard till the story, but... Stalin was sitting talking to someone in a restaurant one time, and he asked for a chicken from the kitchen, and he literally just unplugged that chicken while it's still alive.

And then he sits the chicken down, and the chicken instead of running off came and coward right at his legs. And he basically told the person sitting there that... Well, I can't remember what it was the only word for her, but it was basically the thing of its complete manipulation.

And when you've taken that identity away, and then you're making it what it's supposed to be or what you want it to be, then the chicken's not going to go anywhere because it doesn't know where to go.

It doesn't even really know what it is without standing there. At the time... And, you know, to some degree, it really was kind of, you know, well, where do I do? Where do I, you know, what do I do now?

But without that identity, you know, then I ended up going back. Um, and like you say, the critical thinking piece, I don't, I really don't think even most message people really even understand that.

And that's not even, I mean, I'm not even really saying that about message people per se. That can be a lot of people in our culture today. I mean, you know, all you got to do is look at politics for five minutes and see how people are manipulated.

Yeah. But, but, but the problem is that you can't even really see what you're in. And then if you do start to see it and you step out of it, the problem is that you're so used to that.

And even though it is an anti-biblical structure, um, if you, if and a message people really need to just go reach some church history, there are tons of wonderful lectures free on YouTube of different teachers and theologians giving free church history lectures.

And, you know, even though you're in a modalistic structure, that's what it would have been when I was at the end of message grief that I was part of. It's modalism, which is a heresy.

There's all these different things. And so even though you're in this bad spiritual structure, at the same time, it's still a structure. And if you don't have a structure to go to, then it's, you know, depending where you are in life, it's the equivalent of stepping out of a mode into a hurricane.

And at that point in life, that's sort of what it was for me. And, um, let's see, I guess the sort of go ahead and move into that next zone of life, so to speak.

Um, I did end up going back and, uh, you know, I had some critical thinking going on. And some of what I learned, some of the truth and facts about William Brandham that I learned at that time frame did stick out to me.

I never really left my mind, but at the time, I think it was just like a, you know, well, William Brandham, it wasn't perfect. You know, I wasn't there, you know, maybe this, maybe that, maybe he did say this and maybe he did lie about that.

But, and then, and then too, at that time frame, I, like in the message there was a lot of damage control going on and when you hear a hundred times over that well you know people can't let William Brandon be a man and people can't you know they they he can't do anything wrong they can do stuff wrong but if he tells the lie he's the worst person in the world you know he was a sinner saved by you know when you hear that a hundred times over it's you know sad to say but I was I was sort of

a kind of go along to get along space but at the same time I didn't I didn't really have a structure to go to and so I you know I went back until 2018 a period of that time I was out of church but it wasn't for leaving the message per se the marriage that I was in while in the message crumbled and you know I don't mind saying I went off the rails I got into alcohol very very massively and you know I well I'll touch on that later on of maybe as to some of the

why but got into alcohol really badly sort of started my feet started kind of touching the ground again and you know I wasn't drinking as much well I actually did get down to where I wasn't drinking at all and I mean it just to give people an idea I mean I was I drank so much that I don't even think I thought clearly until about two months after I stopped drinking and and and I and it sounds probably pretty crazy but I mean in all seriousness I didn't even really start thinking clearly about life again until that point and and so I ended up making contact with the pastor

of that message church around I don't know two thousand sixteen I guess something like that and this is another another point where I want to say you know the the message again the message pastors that I had contact with a lot of fond memories and at that time that pastor he's still alive today I mean if he saw this he would know I was speaking about him at that point in my life he was an incredible help to me you know and and I still you know you know I was trying to believe the message and all that but knowing his personal story and all of the

and you know he was he was a lot different from a lot of message ministers in that way.

He would actually I don't know probably by some of the message even now he might be labeled a grace preacher or you know he wasn't strict enough or or whatever but that's because he knew what it was to have grace and so I mean and as a person today I would still say he's a phenomenal man and at that point in time you know he he was a great help to me so I started going back to church and that the strange thing of it is I don't know if it's just because God works in the ways that he does no matter what you know in each of our lives but there was an experience

that church at that time even without me being saved I still don't say that I would have been saved but um there was an experience there and I just literally was at my seat and prayed and it's not I lost the craving for alcohol like it I noticed that that week like when I would be working I would literally taste Jack Daniels in my mouth and it was gone I just couldn't get over it and so there was that but obviously I'm not there now and so that let's see 2018 to skip to that part you know

there were some other things that happened in life um and I think this is what really got me to starting to be very critical of the message um I a friend of mine um you know maybe trigger warning for a people but a friend of mine committed suicide and um it wasn't a girl friend or nothing like that um but I we we had gotten close in that at that point in my life all I could afford was to rent a room in a townhouse and and so she and I was actually three or four people that lived

in that townhouse um so that's what I could afford so that's what I had to do and we had we had became friends and she was actually trying to you know find God and and all of that and so I told her so yeah hey you know you should you come to church with me you know whatever just trying to trying to help her and um you know long story short um she committed suicide and I remember it because you know I I was the one that you know helped her Family and mopped up her the floor for apartment life literally and helped them clean out her apartment and I

Think that's when It all just really hit me like Why? Because at that point and this is the thing that message people need to really remember

What you have works because it's in a bubble You turn off the music and I'm gonna sound harsh here, but this needs to be said Because you're dealing with people's souls and and You're manipulating people's lives in such a way and you're not grounding them in Christ Jesus and Then when life hits them like a ton of bricks, then you wonder why they leave church You wonder why they're shattered and you sit there and you say well, oh, well, they they should have they know better than that I've seen them at the altar. I've seen them shouting. I you know, I was there

I mean, I don't know what's going on with them. Well, it's because they haven't been taught right and They're not grounded yet. I can I can literally say this I Thought to myself. I was like okay As I just it's just started hitting me like we're supposed to be the bride You know Malachi 4 we're following the Elijah We're we're doing this we're doing that, you know put aside and you know, okay, yeah, well some perfect whatever We still got the perfect word, you know done and done and done and And it's just started hitting me like what I had did nothing to help her

Nothing And you know that you know had to stand there and you know watch her family as they were getting her stuff and

You know, these are people These are people their daughter wasn't helped By a guy who's going to a message church the message of the hour the cream of the crop We're not denominational because we're free from denominations and you know We're this for that and this is you know, man It's you know the the raptures already be started and you know and all these things and you just hear Well, it didn't do anything for her and Quite frankly it hasn't done anything for for people who submitted suicide. Wow while they were message believers.

Now, someone could sit and critically say, well, you know, you know, how do you stop suicide? People commit suicide, it's not the message. That's not my point here. My point is that she came somewhere for help.

It was a big step for her. She didn't have to do that. And, you know, most people that come off the street and go into a message church today, I mean, that's like stepping into another time zone.

You know, and so that was a big step. And, you know, just started thinking on that and just started really questioning things. And because I wasn't grounded in a lot of things, I also had a friend that I worked with and he was an atheist at the time.

And we debated one day, what actually one weekend, I worked some weekend shifts. And we debated literally, it was 12 hour shifts. And for, I mean, 31 hours all together that weekend, we just, I mean, back and forth, back and forth because we work side by side.

And I didn't have anything to top his arguments. And, you know, and so once again, I just kept feeling like I was fighting with an unloaded gun. You know, it's the equivalent of sending your military against the enemy with guns that jam all the time.

Yeah. And so I was just like, okay, what am I doing here? Oh yeah. What's an incredible story. And I think we're about halfway through it right now. So let's do this. Let's cut this off here.

And then next week we'll come back and we've talked through your journey of leaving the message going back into the message. And I want to hear more about your final escape from the message.

You and I share so many different things. I think I may have mentioned this before, but I have family members who have committed suicide, have friends who have. And when I started the support groups, I was extremely surprised and shocked to see just how widespread that was in the message.

And again, it all goes back to, this was a powerless God that we had in the message. Pure, plain and simple. So let's do this. Let's, let's in this one here. Next week, let's pick this back up again and we'll hear the rest of the story.

So if you've enjoyed the show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William-Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William-Branum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.