Our Stories: An Interview With Nathan Kutz Part 2

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and we got up to the point where you had just lost a very close friend, and we were running a little bit over on time, so I thought we'd bump it over to this week and tell the rest of the story, but sure listeners are eager to hear more, so I'm just going to let you run with it.

Yeah, John. They probably worked because we were sort of at a good stopping point, and I guess that wasn't a pretty good cliffhanger for people. And just so everyone knows that this is literally all just me talking. I don't know that we really have a certain per se format here. I don't even have a clipboard of an outline here. I actually thought about that, but my wife was like, no, you're not preaching. It's just a talk. It's a conversation.

Yeah, I don't do formal interviews. You can see how I'm dressed. I'm a very informal person, so what you see is what you get. Yeah, with the exception of this shirt, I mean, I'm pretty much, I mean, it's T-shirt and pants of this all the time.

Oh, not always pants of this warm enough shorts, also, John. Oh my gosh. Now you're dressing like the prophet in Africa. You can't do that. I had to throw that in there, and I just, you know, no pun intended, everybody.

So yeah, I think we had left off with my roommate at the time, committing suicide, and where that had left me in my feelings, and that was one of the catalysts that made me really start questioning everything.

I I think we're all pick up with is where I said something like, you know, these are people. And, you know, about the only reason why message, teaching doctrine, all of those things, the only reason why it seems like it works is that it's all done in a controlled environment level.

There was something I said with, um, once everyone turns off the music, you know, and what I, what I kind of specifically meant by that is if you notice with all of these, well, I'm not even, maybe not even necessarily charismatic churches now. A lot of modern churches, they've adopted the whole, well, not everyone, but I mean, it's kind of surprising even in our own area. There's a few that I haven't sat in a church service, but where, where they, apparently, it's like they've sort of got like a, it's like a miniature Christian band concert or something.

And, and, and that's the thing. And, well, you know, obviously we can sing and, you know, have music and all of that. That's not what I'm saying. What I mean is when you're in a Pentecostal or charismatic type church service, the music all has like a structure to it and, and it's really a mark of man-centered worship, man-centered or human-centered worship and theology even. It's, that's an off-short of human-centered theology. And, it's, it's, it's all about manipulation. And, and I know people's going to hear that and they're going to be like, well, you know, I'm a message believer. And now you're missing me. You know, we

don't try to sit around manipulating people. And, and, and that's not like if you're that person listening to this, please hear me out. And the 1800s when the 7th grade white thing came about, music really started being heavily used. And the initiation of, like I said in the, in the previous episode about, you know, really just getting your response and, and manipulating it.

It's the same exact reason I've often said this, we're practically throwing ammunition at, two agnostic atheists and skeptics to shoot right back at us if we do that. Because I've listened to one, I can't remember his name per se. He was actually a former evangelical minister and everything.

He became an atheist and he said that he could actually still do the whole thing of speaking in tongues if he really tried, and also I've heard other atheists, I think it was actually Matt Dillahoney.

He said that he went to rock and roll concerts and would feel the same exact emotion, the emotional effect as he did when he was a Christian in church with the whole musical effect.

So I know Satan can duplicate some things and all of that, he can't create, but he has his own bag of tricks, but at the same time, it's just like Moses and Sarah's magicians.

That's because they can duplicate certain things, it doesn't mean that they're on the level. And if you're initiating your songs like that, then you're really, you're not, it's just not the way that God has ordained in my life.

You know, it's actually kind of funny when you word it like that, after knowing the history, you know, when I was in this thing, I would have said exactly what you said. They're out there, they're rock and roll music, you go to concerts, you feel the emotion.

In fact, William Brannum said that about the Beatles, they were faith healing in the Beatles. But what's really, really funny is if you actually know the history, it is not that those groups are imitating through the acts of Satan.

It's literally that the revivalists were imitating the entertainment industry. And by doing so, there's this conundrum, right? Because they're doing the same kind of emotional hype and advertising and the whole bit. It's a stage act and these guys were religious stage acts.

And they were duplicating this to the extent, I wish I'd have saved them all. But I came across several different newspaper articles where they would set up this tent just like you would in those days, the circuses, they'd set up this big circus tent, advertise the revivalist and the newspapers, billboards, coffee, well, I don't know about coffee shops.

But in your general stores and everybody and their family, even if they weren't even religious people, they would come because that's an event that you can have some entertainment. They would sell hot dogs on the ground and there'd be hot dogs stands right as you're walking into the tent to hear the religious entertainer.

And they're mimicking the entertainment industry. And then that spawned off all of the music you're talking about. As you can see, I'm a musician. So I took this big deep dive on theology of music.

And I was like, oh my gosh, man, what in the world were we thinking? We did not even believe that theology in our own music. There's not a single Christian out there that believes that they're gonna spend eternity sitting on a cloud, playing a harp.

But that's some of the songs, man. And in the cult, it was levels worse. We had songs like The Cabin's Location. Tell me that's a song about Jesus. The Cabin's Location about this human prophet.

And one recently was drinking the tape water. There's no words, man. It's just, it's unbelievable what we did. Yeah, tape water, godly. It's all really, really crazy when you think of that. And looking back on that, those time frames of life.

Like I said in the first episode, a lot of pleasant memories, but then at the same time, certain things, just look back and it's like, man, how did I even, how did I believe that?

But yeah, I mean, I started noticing the effect of different atheists and agnostics. Like I mentioned in the first episode, I had a friend that was an atheist. And I just didn't have anything that would really be the top as arguments.

And of course, like I said, that was a mark of not, I just didn't have the grounding that I needed in Christ. Because I really believe that once you have that, the whole, the Holy Spirit really does begin to work and flow and start building that in you.

But I started noticing all these things. I was just really questioning what, man, this just doesn't seem like this actually works. And that I started really, really, whatever critical thinking that I had done before that, I mean, that was just not even, I don't even know if I would look back on that and say that that was even critical thinking.

I guess she was like a little pre-school primer on it. And I just started looking at everything. And this is like, man, this, what are we doing here? What am I doing here? And clearly, something's not right.

When someone is in that kind of dire strait and they are reaching out for help,

and they don't get help. Like, I started looking at myself and thinking,

there's all these claims that the message is this, the message is that. And do I see that in my own life? Like, I started seeing the faults of the whole life. naven and claimant type of thing. And I'm just like, you know, that this jump doesn't work.

I thought this is all getting quite ridiculous the more that I think about this. And it's just one thing after another. And I was like, man, I can't even really begin to justify this much anymore. And actually at that time frame, and it really looking back on my life and, you know, believing the God of the Joller thing, from a common sense, life perspective, the prominent, I listened to the book from Jordan Peterson, 12 roles for life. And I really gained a lot of benefit from that actually at that time. I started listening to his material,

and you know, and I liked his perspective on religion. And of course, you know, I had also listened to others, you know, other agnostics, atheists, and things like that. And while I didn't say, you know, there's no God per se, like I mentioned that the first one. I never went, I never went that far. But, you know, I thought to myself, I was like, you know, they have a lot of good points. And today, I mean, you know, I still say, especially in their criticisms of religion, atheists and agnostics are right about a lot of things. You know, it's funny because

in the message, well, in any of these fundamentalist type religions, they want to corral you so that you can't hear any critical thought, any critical information. And they will tell you, don't listen to the atheist, don't listen to the agnostic, because everything they say is going to be false, or they're going to be trying to mislead you. I was like you, I was extremely shocked. The first time I talked to, I think it was an agnostic person. They had just been burned by religion, did not want anything to do with it. But the things they told me fully contradicted my own theology.

And I go look them up in the Bible. Sure enough, what they said was absolutely correct. And I realized that if you're in that mindset, I don't care if it's mainstream religion. If you're in a Baptist church and they tell you, don't go listen to this critical thought, it's no different than a cult.

And one of my favorite, one of my favorite textbooks, it's called the text of the New Testament, its transmission, corruption and restoration. This is one of the best textbooks on the New Testament. It's written by a Christian theologian Bruce Metzger. But he part of the as he partnered with the world's leading agnostic, Bart Irman.

And I have to tell you, this textbook is phenomenal. It will take your, it'll take what you know about the Bible and flip it upside down. And then you go back and you read it and you're like, wait a minute, half of what I had was tradition and not actual history.

And anyway, I can't recommend this book enough, but it just goes to show that there are people out there who are Christians, who are deologians, who realize that truth is truth. It doesn't matter where the truth comes from.

And we can, there's the Bible phrase, iron sharpens iron. You know, if somebody has truth and you have truth, well, partner with the agnostic man, because you're good, theology may rub off on the agnostic.

I don't think it has you. He's the price. Exactly, exactly. No, I don't think, I don't think Bart Irman has gone that direction, but still to this day, I will listen to some of his debates because, man, some of the things that he rips up the opposition, I'll go look it up and share enough.

I don't agree with everything he says, but there's a lot he says that I didn't know and why in the world were they hiding this from me? Yeah, yeah, I'll say, I mean, though I vastly disagree with him, obviously, and I'm on, you know, I guess you'd say, I'm on a totally different side than him, but I would say one of the greatest debaters and even just the way that he would speak and use language was Christopher Hitchens.

And now, yeah, obviously, yeah, he, and I mean, you know, not to go down that trail, but I mean, he was a very stark atheist, but he was highly intelligent. And honestly, I've even thought about going back and listening to a few of the things that he said again, because while he's approaching scripture from, you know, too much of a rationalist mind, and you do that too much, and it can be a mockery of God.

At the same time, though, when he looks at scripture, but then he looks at the Christian, it's kind of like what someone said about Gandhi that he loved, he said, I love your Christ, I don't like your Christians.

Yeah. And so it's that same concept. And so, you know, and I was listening to them, and I was just like, man, you know, I think that there is a God. And, but I was like, you know, I just, I'm just kind of done.

Like I, I don't, I can't really say I'm a Christian. I can't say, and that's the thing, and looking back on it, I'm actually very thankful for that time of life. When I started coming to those conclusions, because I can really, truly say, and I'm not taking, I'm not trying to take the words of Jesus at a context, but it was almost as if God's plan in my life was literally an action, it was like the axe was being laid to the root of my trees. And like, you know, anything that was not right to start with was being chopped

down. And, you know, that, and the grace of God at that time frame was just absolutely sounding. And so I started coming to those conclusions, and there was a sermon, and I'm not going to mention any names, but I was in that fifth message church, and there was a sermon, and some things that were being said was related to, well, and maybe I took certain things out of context, but the whole point of it, I did it. The children from my first marriage, they were there in church with me, and there were some things being said, and I knew that they didn't necessarily,

if it was who I thought it was, if it was what I thought it meant, I did not want them to know the same thing, even if they didn't really know who it was about. If it, does that make sense? I know some people who weren't in the message, you're going to hear this, but in the message, here are, here are some of the downfalls. I've really learned what real preaching is. And, and for one thing that it isn't, it is not singling people out from the pulpit. And certain message churches, man, that was terrible. That was absolutely horrendous. Let me guess, you're supposed to preach by quoting every

single statement by prophesying it with, and the prophet said. Yeah, of course, right? Yeah, I mean, it's literally just the rehasting of, you know, something that's 60 years old. And that's not given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, no less. And so that's the thing, you know, it was, it was, the preacher was addressing a certain situation. And for, if my children were able to pick up on what they were talking about, even if they didn't necessarily The who? The who at the time was kind of important because I knew the people and they weren't in church and it actually didn't have anything to do with doubt of the message. It was a completely entirely different situation.

But I knew the people and no one's perfect. But I thought to myself, I was like, now, that's not fair. Like, and that's really if that's what this is about. Number one, if it is, I know I'm not the only one that can see that.

Number two, my kids know them actually quite closely. And this is not a fair representation. And I thought to myself, it was just like that. And I was like, no, I thought no. Because number one, at the time, I only get my kids on the weekends anyway now.

Because the divorce that happened and all that is like seriously. And I'm going to come and spend the only time that I have with them. I'm trying to bring the church, still trying to do the right thing and have some moral structure, you know.

And I thought, and then I thought to myself, you know, I actually did want to be here tonight. And this is what I came to here. And then I was like, you know, these are my kids.

These are my children. I wanted to learn about God. Like, what's this? You know, you can address situations in a biblical way. That's not like that. You know, even in normal society, like if you have a problem with the person in your workplace, for example, you don't stand up on a table where the entire room can hear, I've got a problem with you, that person.

What's it going to do with that person? They're going to hate your guts for the whole rest of the time you work there. And they're not going to be persuaded to change because you just embarrassed the heck out of them.

You don't do this in the real world. Why would you do it in a church? Exactly. Exactly right. And, you know, I thought to myself, because at that point too, you know, through the book I had listened to you and the other things.

And you know, it kind of, you know, learning to think logically and rationally about laws and things. And of course there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I mean, logic is related to word low-goss and so you know I mean it obviously it does come from God. Yes, Satan's tried to corrupt it but you know it is of God so there's nothing wrong with faithing logically and and so the more that I thought about it was like I thought I can't I thought I can't do this and at that point I was starting to to realize you know why am I the way I am in some ways.

Yeah and the effect of sitting under preaching like that especially when I was when I was really young three times a week and well I know even up so I was 18 three times a week. The fifth message church that I was at they actually just had service on the weekends they didn't have a midweek service and you know and even still you know because that's the thing and I'm not throwing a stone at anyone person it's it just comes with the package you know when when when a preacher and I mean I'm trying to say this was great I mean just you know complete benefit of the doubt

if because you know they would say well we don't have a theologian we don't have a you know we don't have anything like that yeah but you still when you're going constantly over and over and over through 1100 sermons by one man then right yeah like I mean that you can almost I don't I mean I know it's not technically that but if I was to point to something in the message that could be something like I don't know a creator confession or a systematic theology it would probably be something like the collection of I don't know what didn't have something like a seed

library or yeah that a few different thing in the end what it turns out to be is that they they talk in circles it's double double speak because on the one hand they'll tell you don't trust science science is out to disprove us and trick us but then they reference the sciences the scientists in every single example that they use of what they claim to be supernatural I heard this and I wish I could remember his name but I heard this person and I'll get the quote wrong but he said something to the effect of if science disproves God then your understanding of science is

incorrect your understanding of God is incorrect or both are incorrect in other words you can't take the leap of faith that science is fully incorrect because there's a scientific method and it's it starts with a theory as a theory I want to I want to prove but this book is made of paper.

I don't know that it is, but I want to prove it. Well, then I can go do the analysis, I can study, and the scientific method won't come to the conclusion. It will say, based on these facts that we know, we can say with a certain percentage of certainty that yes, this book is made of paper.

That's a scientific method. And something may come down the line later that says, no, it's actually made of bits of plastic in paper, or whatever, I don't know. But that's the scientific method. In these cults, they try to tell you that any analysis, any logic, anything, literally anything that you can use to apply critical thought against the message, that's of the devil.

All, of course it is. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, it's all bad, and don't get me wrong. I do think, I'm even now careful with any sort of resources about counseling or psychology or whatever like that.

Because some of the, I think it is important for people to remember that if you're a Christian, you have to be wary of the fact that people like Freud as intelligent, and I mean, as smart as they were, I mean, many of them weren't Christians.

Carl Young, I don't know if he necessary to claim to be a Christian, he wasn't an atheist, but people do have to be aware of that. At the same time though, many of it is, it's literally just observing,

I can't remember the term for it, a clinical, it basically, I don't know, it's a science of observation and therefore determining psychology of people. Right. I, there's a term, but it's on the tip of my tongue, but they do, they do come to a lot of truthful conclusions.

They dance clearly. There's nothing inherently bad about it. It's just watching us, you know. I mean, we all actually do it ourselves anyway. It's just we don't have the titled psychologists, you know. I mean, so, but through that, you know, I became agnostic and, you know, I just reached that point where, okay, this is it.

I thought it took me a bit to really come to grips with it because I knew what it meant. I knew there's not going back this time. There's no, you know, oh, hey, I've been, you know, and like I say, like I had been helped in that period in 2016 by the pastor I had at the time, tremendously, but, you know, we're talking two years later and...

I thought for myself was like, okay, where I'm at, I can't remain truthful to myself, to my children, to anyone, and stay here, and I thought, okay, well, if I leave this time, like, I'd like this really is it, and this time, I sort of had that structure to, you know, I had more understanding, and I was just like, all right, you know, let it rip. I'm not going back. That's it. And I actually wrote a four-page letter, I think, and made it up to the pastor. I didn't want to do it over the phone just because, you know,

it's just not, I didn't want there to be any kind of bad relation at all. You know, I made, I made a couple mistakes the very first time that I left to be completely fair and honest, and should have handled a couple things better, and I didn't want to repeat that, and I knew that talking on the phone could repeat that. And so, I mean, it was just to be honest, it was one of those things where completely right intentions, but I didn't have the right attitude about it, and, and this time around, it's like, you know, no, I'm just going to write a letter and let it

be that. And then, too, I thought, you know, that's kind of more personal anyway. And I wanted to make sure that I conveyed it was nothing against anyone per se, in particular, you know, that I appreciated them, and what they had done for me in my life, and all of that. But I was just, you know, my thoughts and convictions are no longer in line with message teaching, and I, you know, I have to do what I have to do, and I have to be honest. And so, and I feel like that, that really was kind of the better way to go about it, because that's the thing, you know,

if I had just said, I don't know, maybe I could have been more careful and crafted it in such a way to where it was, you know, nicely said, I don't even know if you can say it in a nice way, because people are not going to take it nicely, you know, I just, I don't believe this guy anymore, I don't think he was a prop, and I don't, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it just would have, it just would have, it wouldn't have been good. So that's how I did it. And that was,

November, at that point, October, no, it was October of 2018. And, you know, and I,

I didn't look back. I don't know if it was at that point or not. I think I did go back and go over, believe the Signs website. I may have actually, did you still have seeking the truth at that time or seeking the truth?

I don't think I did. I think the cult brought the YouTube site down. I, people don't know this actually. I, I had a walking away strategy. I was going to walk away from all of this.

And I had, I'd been producing these docu-series and I've made it all the way up to I think it was the point in which I introduced Jim Jones, the connection between Brannum and Jim Jones, the cult attacked the YouTube site, brought it all down and I had, I want to say it was like 2015.

I just, I was rebranding everything to just put it out there. Here's a beacon of truth if you want it and I was going to walk away. So I think, I want to say it was like 2015. I, I did this, but, but what you're talking about, that's the, that's really the crux of it.

Because in a destructive cult, the cult leaders identity gets embedded in your own identity. So it becomes as one. And anything that you say critical to or negative to the cult leader and his authority on doctrine or scripture, because it's intertwined in your own identity, you see it as a personal attack when you're under that mind control.

So, but then on the flip side, when you leave it, you've got this and you got to rip it out. And it's, I don't know if you've seen the sci-fi movies where there's like a symbiotic host and they've got, they've got to pull the alien out of the body.

It's painful and it's messy and it's really, it's like that in your head, man. And you go through a process separating your psyche or something like that. It's pretty crazy. It really is. And, you know, unless you've gone through it, you can't, I can't even describe what it feels like. It's, it is painful. It is one of the most painful things.

And you go through all of the stages of grief because that, that identity has died in you. But what you've described is you're going through the stage of deconstruction. And the point I wanted to lead up to is this, there's a lot of people, you have to go through a deconstruction.

I don't care if you do it when you leave, I don't care if you do it 20 years later, 40 years later, you might be, I've talked to somebody who was literally in their late 70s, who was going through the deconstruction of the message.

He'd been away from it all those years, but it's stuck in your head, man. You have to go through that and people mistake it for becoming an atheists or an agnostic. Because to deconstruct, you have to take out everything you've learned. You have to rip it out. You have to evaluate it. And what you realize is, as you're ripping it out, he said, this about the Bible, that's false, throw it out.

This was false. When the end you're left with, there's so many lies that they told me about the Bible, I've ripped it out. them all out and was the Bible itself true. Well then you have to also deconstruct all of that platform and when you do, you're left with nothing.

You are essentially an agnostic or an atheist. And then even if you're not trying to be, yeah, well then people make the mistake of claiming that as their new identity and they'll go down the pathway.

I did this. If you go through the pathway, if you're listening to all these guys, you mention Hitchens. I probably listened to all of them, man, because the Hitch slaps were my favorite. Yeah.

Yeah. I have to say, I mean, you're talking about my drop moment, there was one. He was debating, I think, I don't know if it was in America or not, it could have been over in Europe, but he was debating an African Roman Catholic bishop.

And I mean, it was like, what, damn, what, damn, I mean, he, it was like Indiana Jones with a whip with his mouth, and it's like, ah, a leap, how, like, you knew that he was right, but you almost felt bad for the other person because it's like, it's the equivalent of having your clothes ripped right off of you.

I mean, it's like, gosh, and he's right. Yeah, and that's really the crux of it, right? The things that he is saying, there, there's a lot, there are a lot of Christians in the world globally.

I don't care what denomination, they have become so, just like we did in the message cult, they've become so solidified in the tradition that they don't think about the tradition. And it opens the door for somebody who has critical thought to say, no, that's not right.

And you go, you know, as you're deconstructing, if you come across this, and you suddenly realize, wait a minute, what he said is actually correct. What do I do with this? Well, then you go down that pathway, right?

That's why I think I've mentioned, I don't know if it was in the last episode with you or one of the others, but when somebody is in the process of deconstructing, I step out of the way.

I will give them, if they want to hear Hitchens, I'll send them, here's my favorite Hitch slap. If they want to hear, you know, theologian, I usually reference this book. I'll say, read this book, this is a good book about the New Testament written by both sides and you get kind of a balance.

But I let them reconstruct, because if I step in the way, I'm no better than the cult leader who's manipulating them, because as they're being reconstructing their identity, the influence that you put on them can sway the rebuilding of that identity, and it's very, very wrong to do that.

Oh, it certainly is, and I want to say this. because I feel like on one hand there's gonna be a message person that watches or listens to this I don't know who may even know me personally somehow or from way back wind only and they're like oh yeah but you still became an agnostic like you know like that's still that's terrible like like like sit yeah but look at where it's the whole thing of well yeah but you last and you fell off the wagon well number one you haven't heard the rest of the story

at number two it's it number one it's okay to fall off the wagon did you know that and I say this to you message lever and even to some of us who've been Christians for a while did you know that it's okay if you mess up yeah like it's you know did you know that they're apostle Peter who literally saw Moses in Elijah with Jesus when he was transfigured like all these incredible things and would walk past people and his shadow would heal them did you know that he almost made an extremely critical error and almost went into complete

heresy himself and Paul had to fix him straight Paul says to his face like it's okay to mess up you know it's all right it's no different than stubbing your toe it's okay to as in your Christian life to slam the door on your hand like yeah it's all right it's okay if you if you when we you know if I pour you know that you know I love diet Pepsi and Diet Coke and you know if I pour it diet Pepsi and I spill some of it it's all right yeah you know back to the songs there were

some songs that did have some good theology and one of my favorites I can't remember the title of it but start out we have a heavenly father and the theme was there's a heavenly father who loves you and yours child there's a great song yeah haven't heard it in here so I'm drawing a blank on it but take that theme so I have children I'm a father I have a son say that one of my sons were to suddenly disown me and say I'm no longer part of you I don't want to be part of you in other words I have now become an agnostic to the Collins family I'm

an atheist to the Collins family do you think me as a father I'm gonna let this happen I'm gonna go after him I'm going to try my dandas to convince him that I have a lot of faults I admit it but I want to be your father I want to love you I want I want this relationship they'll they sing these songs about this father loves you, but the moment you question that father, the moment, like my son, the moment he questions his Collins nature, if this were to happen, this has not happened.

You cut them off in these, in these type of groups, and I'll be honest, that's not a problem that's limited to the message we've tried several different churches after leaving. One we ended up is not like this, but I want to say two of the ones that we tried.

They were that way. To the extent, I think the last sermon, the one that made me walk out of one church, was they were ridiculing the atheists and agnostics, and it struck home with me heavily, because I was at a point in my life, even though I was still attending church, I was deconstructing, and I was wrestling with all of this, and here he is ridiculing these guys.

At this point, I know some of, I know some atheists, and they're really good people. I could not take it, and so I sympathize with you in a different way, because I did this not in a message church, but I did this in a regular church, and if you're a preacher who's never dealt with any of this mind control stuff, I'm just going to be honest with you, ridiculing the people who criticize you is not the Christian way.

No, oh, it's not. I mean, I believe there's a biblical mandate for setting something straight. I believe there's a biblical mandate for being separate from what is wrong, but it's just what Paul says in First Corinthians, now if he never said the last part, then those, anyone who does, something like that might confine some sort of a verse to justify it, but it's like we conveniently forget the last part of what he says, and he's like, no, like you pray for them, and you try to bring them back in, like it's not like you open the door of the car and just, look, you're out, you know, grab your mother hair and

drop them, like it's like, it's a thing of, yeah, you know, this is acceptable, and you have to understand, this is, you know, we honor God here, and you do it in such a way to where you, you almost, in a kind love, that's the whole part of it is the love of Christ.

Yeah. It's looking at the way Jesus did things, not going to get ahead of myself, but that's one of the massive things that really led to where I am now, is seeing the way that Christ would handle, you know, it's back around somewhere in the summertime, a local park where we live, there's like a little bandstand, and they'll have, you know, they'll have different genres.

music plays sometimes and it was actually a I guess a preacher or pastor that has like a little with a Christian band and he was singing a song about how that Jesus still washed the feet of Judas even though he knew new the entire time and it's still a man that really struck me I was just like yeah I don't look like I could do that and that's how we handle even those we just they maybe they've even made their made themselves bitter enemies of us but that's as Christians that's how we're supposed to be and yeah the way that

that is done in the message I can remember looking back and now I would say this was the fault of some of the ones I can't necessarily say that I saw every single message pastor that I do do it but I did see one time when I was in church as a child where someone was taken taken out from under the protection or whatever but I remember that I heard of another instance at a church wasn't it wasn't an identical situation but even then I was I was uncomfortable with how that was done even though I didn't really even understand

things but I just thought when so it was like man that that's really sad like it just didn't seem right and but yeah it's it's incredibly incredibly hurtful to people that it's that is definitely I would say yeah when you're not doing something the way Jesus and the apostles is tried to do it you're literally like those prophets and the false prophets that is a Zechial I think and Isaiah writes about Jeremiah I know writes about him you know how they lead the people astray that they they're really abusing the people and false priests and things like

that well goes back to something we talked about in the previous episode there is no scriptural basis for a the word minister the words used in the Bible they're they're you know the shepherd of the flock but more than that they're your servant they're the one who's teaching you more about God there is no biblical precedence for a minister to use an incantation of or a curse actually a curse over a body of Christians and what it essentially does is it is lifting them in power to convince every one of their people in the congregation that they have

of this unnatural spiritual authority to doom you to hell. Exactly. And they're not an apostle. That's, I think that's the biggest key. They're not an apostle to make this. Yes. Yes. The old up, man.

Don't get me started on that. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. You are not an apostle and no one else is today matter of fact. Anyway, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. You know, the apostle in, in the message, the apostle was really your sorcerer, if you really think about it.

You literally just blew my mind. I never, I mean, that's, yeah. Talk about a morphing and twisting of it. My goodness. Yeah, no, no, that's, that's the, I think that's a fair statement. In certain situations, it certainly becomes that way.

So that was my time sort of as an agnostic. Now, an agnostic, an atheist could listen to this and say, well, you weren't one for long enough. But, you know, in the end, maybe another Christian can say, well, maybe you thought you embraced it, but God just had another plan and you weren't technically the one to start with.

You know, I don't know, it's the floor's open to anybody on that. But I, I was agnostic, I was claiming to be agnostic.

And I went, I actually, I met my wife and, well, now, now my second wife, but I, you know, I met her, then this would have been February, no, the end of January, beginning of February, 2019.

Our first date was February 1st. And so, at the time that we're recording this, John, I mean, it's, you know, we're coming up on a pretty happy time of year or so.

You know, I met her and it was really, really interesting because, you know, we've both grown a lot in the Lord together, but she grew up, you know, in Methodist, you know, from a baby, all up, you know, 40 years at her, at the church, she grew up it, grew up in, excuse me.

And she's just a very incredible person. And she's also, she's also been an educator for 20 years as an elementary school teacher for 17. And so, very intelligent. And she was like the first person that heard some of the things that I said, and heard some of my...

arguments that I had developed and even borrowed from, you know, all the experts in that agnosticism and atheism. And she was one of the first people, it just really just kind of shocked me.

That heard what I said and yeah, but I get that, but have you ever looked at it like this? And I was like, huh, okay, I don't have anything to say to that. And incidentally, I can actually say, and believe it or not, he was a Baptist and I know I said before I lost the craving for alcohol and all of that.

At this time, I would have, I mean, I would literally go and just enjoy like one glass of like a craft beer at a local brewery or something. And I mean, that was it.

I didn't drink heavily whatsoever, not even, I wouldn't even say for visually at that time. And I was doing, doing okay with it. And I actually had a beer with a missionary. I never ever thought I would say that in my life.

And he, you know, Weber's kind of talking, and I was just really blowing away, he was a missionary and was like, okay, the water, you doing it here. And so we started talking and it was really, really cool.

And he had been, you know, he went to the Middle East a lot and really, it was a really remarkable guy. I haven't literally haven't seen him since. I really totally wish him well wherever he is.

And it was kind of the same thing. And he told me, he said, you know, he said, I think you've seen too much of the sharp as a two-edge sword side of Christianity and not enough of the healing of Christianity.

And he said, you know, he said, and honestly, he said, I can't necessarily say that I disagree with anything that you said today. He said, but maybe just when you're ready, he said, maybe just give it one more try.

Maybe just take your time, just look at it one more time. Yeah. And I was like, I thought man, like this man, this guy's really on the level. I was like, okay, yeah, I'll do that sometime.

And literally to sort of fast forward a little bit more later that year, that would have been February of 2019. And I would have really consciously made a decision to profess Christ's Lord and Savior.

December of 2019, was I joined my wife's church, United Methodist Church. church and I don't know that I can fully express how incredible that life became from there forward and I want to say this quickly, maybe you're doubting the message or you left the message and maybe something bad happened in life and you're like, oh, it's because I left. They were right and now I'm cursed or now I'm this. No, they're not. They were wrong.

Yeah. Number one, even meeting my wife, I've told her this so many times, I never lived life until I met her. Number one, number two, I really didn't live life until I was actually born again and and I'll go into this further. I think we're going to do a part three Charles.

I'm Charlie from the west of Charles John. Charles is much better looking than I am. I think we're think we've talked about doing a part three, but I have to say I'm going to go into that more in part three, but I just I didn't feel dirty anymore. Yeah, I felt it's like it's like the Lord was looking at me and was just like, it's okay. It's all right and and I ended up writing a poem and for the life of me now, my wife could try to help my organizational skills

much to her trivial, but you know, I'm getting better, but I can't even find the poem that I wrote, but I remember writing a poem and it was called The Hammer in my Hand and it was just this it was so I had basically and I lived on my life holding this hammer and you know, everything I did I was building with this hammer and and one day I looked and the the board that I was driving a nail into, I noticed that there was something under the nail and then as I looked deeper, I saw a hand and then I started looking and then I started realizing I've never quite seen

this before and then I started looking and looking and it's as if you know, it was as if I started to begin to see there was a man on this board and then I looked and pulled back the curtain even more and it was, you know, it was like, I mean, I didn't literally see Jesus on a cross, but you know, I think people get what I'm saying, like I started realizing this, what the heck is going on here?

And I noticed that it's Christ on the cross, and I looked and he had a smile. And the line that I can definitely remember was, and I asked him why he was happy or smiling.

And he said, I tell you now the job is done. And he said, the job is done, for I tell you now I am God's Son. And I said, but I just nailed you to the cross with my heart covered in a layer of frost.

And he said, and it was just like he said, now you know what to do with your hammer. Instead of building a kingdom of dirt and death, now you can help bring my kingdom of peace and rest.

And there's just, you know, I've never been in the military. I've never, you know, nothing like that. But I guess just with what I, you know, went through turmoil, you know, divorce, and, you know, issues with my kids, you know, any of that, you know, job loss, and, you know, the suicide and my friend, and, you know, all these different things.

It's like I just, and that's, I guess that's why I went to, I just wanted to know. I just wanted some kind of understanding, some kind of peace. I just wanted peace. That's all I wanted.

And I wasn't even trying to, you know, take a picture of random and throw it in the trash. And it was just, I just wanted peace. And it's, I just can't, if you're watching this and you're on the fence about God, or whatever, like, I'm sure you've earned your right to be critical.

And, you know, I can't, I can't imagine what some people in the message or, or, you know, they've left the pain and the hurt that they hold themselves. But just remember this, God is your answer.

What you were taught, what you learned, that was not God. Like, there's just so much more than Jesus Christ than what you've ever even really given thought to. He's not a genie in a bottle that you name it and claim it, and you get exactly what you want.

And you, you don't have to be, more you can cast off your sickness, you know, that's not what this is about. This is about the son of the living God and what he did for us. And when we do part three, you know, I've really came to an understanding of what a sinner I had been and it was when I read the four Gospels and I'm not going to take for many of that, but we're going to cover that in the next one. But

just I'll sum it up by this. Jesus Christ is all you need when Jesus Christ is all you have. And Bram and Jesus Christ don't mix. If you need Bram and Jesus Christ, you don't have only Jesus Christ. That's what all there is to it. And I know a lot of people are going to get mad when they hear that. They kept your mind when proving me wrong. And I'll wait.

I don't know that I can say anything to to top what you've just said to end it, but I will say that there's some similarities that I had. There's some favorite moments through this to give some encouragement to somebody who's going through the process of deconstruction and or reconstruction.

I am of the opinion that the deconstruction is the hardest thing you'll ever go through, but the reconstruction is the most work that you'll go through. And some people like for me, I wouldn't say that I'm done and I have no problem. I have no problem saying that for the rest of my life, I'm content if it takes that long because I'm taking it slow. I'm taking it in my own time.

I am very well, you know, me. I research everything. I'm very cautious in how I reconstruct myself because I don't want I don't want anything like what I had. But there were a few favorite moments in that process that I will mention, which, you know, not it's very similar to what you had, although it's not exactly the same, but there's this moment that struck me right before leaving.

I'm a songwriter, musician, composer, etc. But the song kept coming to me. Jesus didn't come to save the saved. He came to save the lost. And I was feeling this real sick feeling in my stomach, going to these services. I don't care which church it was from coast to coast in the message.

We're preaching at their own congregation of believers who have accepted Jesus and should have their own, you know, their own confession that they're Christian. I mean, it's not like these are, you know, not like he's going to the halls of prostitution.

and preaching. He's preaching at these people as though they're all sinners and totally ignoring the rest of the, you know, in many cases they're in small towns. So the whole rest of the town who needs to come to Jesus, totally ignoring them and it placed a burden on me. That was one of the first milestones. I won't say that that led me over the edge, but it did put it to a place where I had to think about it. And then as I'm going through the deconstruction, as a musician, I had made a quote unquote covenant with God that I was, it was a one-way covenant. I would only play his

music if he would bless me with musical skills. Well, he's already blessed me with skills. And I was telling this, we're going to a Baptist church at that time. I was telling this Baptist church about it. And I felt really burdened because I felt like as an artist, I was told I could only paint with the color green. You know, I could only play this music and I love all music. Classical jazz, the whole bit. And he said, John, I want to do something for you.

He took me to a blues bar. And so here I am with a Baptist minister, you know, the Baptist alcohol. I'm having drinks. And at this time, I still don't like alcohol very much. I have drank, but we had this mental image that if you even took a sip, you were going to get fall out drunk off of just a little sip. So here I am with a Baptist minister. And in a blues bar, that was a key moment. But as I'm reconstructing, I'm really wrestling because, and I still to this day, I'll fully admit, I still wrestle with this. I don't and never will understand the Christian

traditions that other church have that we didn't have. And they're very commonly accepted. I'll go into a new church. And I don't care which church I've tried. They say things as if they preach in such a way that they expect you to have already accepted this thing that I've never, I never knew that I was supposed to accept. I won't give examples. But I sat down with it. I sat down a private with this minister probably two or three years ago. And I was explaining this to him.

And the specific example I gave him was in the New Testament and one of Paul's letters. And he said, John, whenever I preach to my congregations, I usually will preface anything that I say about Paul's letters with this. I want you to understand you're reading someone else's mail.

And then it suddenly hit me. You know, if you run it through that perspective, it completely flips everything that you thought as tradition upside down. You're reading somebody else's mail. And you know, I could go on, we'll talk more in the next episode. But I want to talk more to you about how different it is for you as a new minister who's now left the message.

How different is that between how you are raised? And I'll be honest, we can't fit that in the rest of this episode. We're gonna push it over to the next one. So if you've enjoyed the show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William-Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William-Branum in his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.