Our Stories: An Interview With Nathan Kutz Part 3

Hello, and welcome to another episode. Good of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Nathan Kuts, minister and former message believer.

Nathan, it's been a while since we've done this. I know to the listeners it will seem like it was just last week and it was when the podcast came out, but I got nasty, nasty head cold, and just like in the message I was not able to faith heal myself out of this head cold, so it's no better before, no better after, but my voice is a little better today, but I got really excited, we were in the heat of talking through all of this, and usually I try to contain it in one episode, and yours

was a bit bigger story because you're a minister, so I wanted to go to two. I had no idea we're going to go to three. I just had so much fun talking to either.

But yes, so to pick up where we left off, we have talked about the journey of being in the message, and then last podcast was some of the things that you go through as you are deconstructing and literally just finding your identity because the biggest thing that they robbed from us is not money.

They stole our identities, and that it's one of the most difficult things is realizing that when you're in this, you really weren't yourself, and now you have to find yourself. But we were talking beforehand.

We were so nice to the message people in the last two, people were going to think, what is this? But this episode, Nathan, let's just bring it home. Yeah, John, I guess I could start by saying, I guess, as a difference with the first two to this one is in regards to your head cold there, you know, you just didn't have enough faith.

I mean, shoot, not even message people today, I mean, you know, you got all the faith that you were, Kenneth Copeland, I mean, all you got to do is, I mean, I don't know if you've seen the clip.

I can't remember the YouTube channel, but there's a clip of Kenneth Copeland out there literally And then the people his congregation literally repeats it and he's like Yeah, yeah, both spots I call you go

And yet not a single faith healer not a single faith healer for all of these Centuries has been able to cure a head cold exactly. Well, I mean she just a few years ago I mean, I know he wouldn't be considered a message of William Brownham, but Kenneth Copeland, I mean he's he's a modern-day prophet. I don't know if it claims to be an apostle, but I mean he blew The certain sickness that was around a few years ago. He blew it away. Yeah Didn't work didn't work at all No But uh, yeah, so we um

Uh You know the first two was just sort of more of the The personal background that was the first one the second was sort of the start of my deconstruction phase And ended with coming back to Christ and Um, I guess the third one John will be more of a um, you know where I've grown to in the Lord How I started really really growing and then the calling that I felt the ministry and so um, I think one of the last things that I mentioned was the poem that came to me and we talked about that

um And uh, it was after that time frame and it was at the end of the year 2020 And you know that everything uh, where I you know, we're definitely not going down that truth But you know, politically everything was in an uproar, you know, then there was uh, the the virus that was going around you know, shutdowns, lockdowns, mass, all that kind of stuff and people work I don't know. It just seemed like around here in Virginia and uh, just seemed like every sphere of life You know friends and family everybody was just all just

worked up and unsettled and I thought myself was like, you know And I'm literally a baby been the faith at this point and I just thought I don't know this I just don't feel like as Christians were supposed to be this stressed out and worked up about everything and um, and so I just I was like, you know what I'm just going to go through the four gossals Take my time and I'm just gonna read it And I did it with, I started literally with one of those little paperback NIV New Testaments, a local store in our area.

They have a rack of those for free. And so I just grabbed one. I mean, I had a couple of bottles at home, but I just thought, all right, I'm just going to start from scratch, and here we go.

And now it took me probably three months or so. And it, man, I just can't, I don't know, the only thing that I can just grab is that that was the Holy Spirit just really working.

And I don't know how you, how I would put it, cradling my soul maybe as a babe in Christ and just, like just literally just pouring the word over me. And when I say word, I mean the genuine word.

I don't mean the word of the message of the hour or anything of that nature. And I just want to throw that out there. And it was just so, so, so transformative. And I have read parts of the Bible before, but of course it was in the King James and nothing against the King James Bible.

I love that Bible, but as we all know, it's just not as understandable today. And I think it was just, you know, and maybe my reading level is then was the round. I think the NIV is a seventh grade reading level.

And so, you know, maybe that's just where I'm at reading wise. And I was just reading that and it just exploded to me as, you know, I went through and read the words of Christ.

And at the end of that, well, not even at the end of that period, I saw really quickly. I don't know. The only thing I can, it just had to be the Holy Spirit, because there was just so much of life, especially at the end of the servant on the Mount, where Jesus says, whoever does not listen to these words of mine, and whoever doesn't do these words, you know, if someone listens to them, you know, they're like a house built on a rock, but if not, they're built on sand.

And, man, I mean, it just, because at the end of that second interview, I talked about questions in my piece, and I just can't explain. It's almost like you see in a movie where someone's memories of life come flashing through or whatever, and there was so many things I looked back.

You know, that's been a little over three years ago, so I was, you know, 31, 32, and I was just like, man, like, all this... time. I have been so wrong and it just like it's it was just like I just ran into a brick wall and I thought there's

no wonder no wonder and and I just I literally just honestly had a time of just deep repentance and was just like you know God I am so sorry you know and you know then of course you can't go through the four gospels and not see the Trinity. I mean I don't know how oh I guess that's the cognitive dissonance or confirmation bias. Maybe it's not it's the you know the 17th century English I don't know but I you know just so many things it's just like a tidal wave hit me and and I'll like and say it was it was the grace of God because it

was in that period answered so many prayers because it just gave me so much understanding and so then a few things started and it was like okay well here I am and and I started feeling even before I got to the end of John I started feeling like a drawing like a just in something like a calling so to speak and I mean it took me probably two or three more months where I finally figured out what it was but I started feeling something then and you know then I asked a question okay so how

much of my life would have been different had this happened a whole lot sooner yeah you're trapped in this mindset where you're being told number one what the Bible is and you're being told incorrectly and you're being told number two how to read it and you're being told how to read it incorrectly and number three like you said the the version that they want you to read I have come to the conclusion that they purposefully want you to read the King James because you can't understand it and it puts the power in their hands to interpret it for you and the funniest thing

that hit me about all of this you mentioned the Trinity and we're not going to go fully there maybe you will but I kind of I kind of avoid it but the funniest part of that is there these ministers are KJV only and they will denounce you if you're not but in the KJV there is a passage first John 57 that says for there are three that bear record in heaven the father of the word which is Jesus and the Holy Spirit and these three are one and this is known by all scholars as the infant

this Trinity verse, you'll find it in the KJV. You won't find it in some of the modern translations because this is a passage in question. And if you get into text criticism, there's a question as to whether this is authentic.

But those that are KJV only, they're preaching from the Trinity Bible, man. Exactly. Before I caught my head cold, you and I were talking as I was, I think I was shopping in the store one day.

And we're talking about text criticism. And I, even though I don't present the atmosphere of knowing theology for the sake of this podcast, I actually know a lot more than I let on. And one of the funniest things that I studied was in text criticism just, I got curious about how the language shifted over time.

So we're stuck in this KJV from the 1600s, man. Well, that's so much different than 2024 today. And the funniest thing, the funniest study, you can go out and find this study on the internet is study the use of the word kidneys in the King James version.

They use the, all throughout the Old Testament, man, and the New Testament, they use the word kidneys. But the authors did not understand what this was. And so you'll find the kidneys, they're talking about it in conjunction with the heart as the psyche of the person.

And you'll find all these weird references and you're thinking, that's not what a kidney does, man. When you get into the modern translations and there's allowance for the growth of human knowledge, which is another concept I struggled with.

When they wrote the Bible at the time they wrote it, they did not understand the world as we understand it today. You know, science hadn't progressed. Like in the King James version, it talks about the firmament.

And this is another crazy study that I went off in these crazy tangents. But the firmament was literally this blanket of shiny things that wasn't that far from the earth, that you could look up and you could see, okay, there's a firmament.

They did not understand that each one of those little dots was an actual sun from another solar system and there were planets that revolve around those. To them, it was just this blanket of shiny things.

And if you study the creation scriptures and you understand what the word firmament meant, you're like, no, man, that's not right. But if you take into context what they're saying and what their knowledge was at the time they wrote it and then apply that to, we're not really supposed to care about the science and the history, what they're trying to tell us is about God in the Bible.

Right. Right. Right. You make that distinction and then, you know, you'll find these forms where you've got Christian apologists and... atheists just going, add it head to head because the atheists will say, well, the firmament is not a shiny thingy.

But all of that just kind of goes away when you recognize that that's not the important part of what they were writing, man. And focus on that, you're losing the focus of the bigger picture.

Oh, exactly. I mean, and that's the, I think that's one of those things where, and I got to be careful because I don't, I'll get to, I'll go on a, I'll talk for five minutes on something that doesn't even apply to our interview.

But I think I've heard described as, it's like it's true, like they were telling the truth, but it's like I heard a, a seminary theologian talking just literally just you within the last month.

And he was talking about, you know, the progression from the Old Testament into the new. And it was sort of like, you know, he talked about when he was a kid and, you know, they would be visiting somewhere out west of the Rocky Mountains.

And he said, as they would be driving across a couple of safes, you could see the Rockies. And as they got closer and as they got closer and as they got closer, you know, they could see more detail.

And that's kind of the way I look at, you know, you know, at the, at the beginning of the Bible, it's like, like you say, there's so much emphasis put on that. And, and I, I do believe in, you know, some of the fundamentals of Bible doctrine, but at the same time, the, they were writing, it's, it's like when Moses are, you know, the writer of Genesis says, writing and it says, you know, every seed breaks forth of its kind.

Well, yeah, that's a thousand-year-old statement. But when you really break that down, it's kind of like an ancient way of describing DNA. Like, there's, there's just so much there. And like you say, when you're locked into, I can only use this version, it is just it is such a massive, such a massive, massive disservice to, you know, people in the message into people, everywhere, because there are other movements that are KJB only that are not in the message, but, just as a little side note, I've, I've listened, I'm a big audio learner, and so I've listened to the book, put out by Mark Ward, W-A-R-D, he's got a YouTube

channel, and he's wrote, he's written at least one or two books, I think, but it's called Authorize, the use and misuse of the KJB. James Bible. Very excellent book. Excellent, excellent book. And it's very, very accessible to just about anybody that could hear it. I mean, a 10-year-old could listen to it and really pick up what he's saying. And he really covers that about the whole translation piece of it, nothing against the KJB, but it's just, I mean, I know in his personal work, he's found up to a thousand words. He said that he stopped a thousand, but up to a thousand words in the KJB that the meaning,

like you said about the kidneys, like it's just, it changed from, you know, 1611 when it originally was finished then. And so yeah, if you're, if you're still in the message, maybe you're watching this in frustration, this podcast apart, or you're watching this, maybe you're in the message, and you're seeking to watch this because you'll be blasted to hell if it's found out that you're watching or listening to it. You know, do yourself a favor. You know, if you're, if you're, if you're very traditional in mind, man, go grab an ESB, a new King James. If you're, you know,

you're like, man, I really just want to really, really understand it and get a good overall grasp of it. Good, grab an NLT or an NIV, man, I mean, seriously, you are, you have been robbed of a treasury of Bible knowledge that, oh my lord, that's, that's, that could be a 10 episode series of one. Yeah. That was one of the things that was really the most difficult for me to understand why people didn't care to study the Bible. If this is literally the main book for not just our religion and our salvation, but to identify us as a person as a Christian, why in the world do people

not want to study this thing? Some, some people haven't even read the thing, right? And one of the, one of the most eye-opening things for me is in my IT career. I had to work with people from other countries and our, our team would connect with teams from other, you know, other countries.

And sometimes there'd be a translator in between us. And so this person who cannot speak English might say two words. And the translator might say 50. So try to explain it. Because that one word that they said doesn't directly translate to one word in English, it's a whole phrase. And then vice versa. Sometimes there was a phrase that could be condensed to one word. And so he would, you know, they would spout off a whole sentence and there may be one word come back.

But if you think logically about this, it's the same thing between in the ancient Greek and Hebrew and the English, whenever that translation occurs, there's not a word-for-word match. And so even when the King James translated it, even if they got it 100% accurate as it would read today, which it isn't.

But even if they did, the word that they chose doesn't really describe the same sentence being said. And so you have to read other sentences that get the formulation of the whole meaning that's being said.

So whenever I began studying the Bible after leaving the call, I think it was BibleHub.com and Bible Gateway. We've got these interlinear translations, where you can click on a word and it will give you a whole page of what that word encompasses all of the thought-streamly.

Yeah, extremely helpful. I went down that road and I wanna tell you, it takes a long time to read the Bible like that, but I wanna tell you, the cool thing is, and I've got a copy of Strongest Concordance, but they would give you the Concordance link for a word, and they would also show you, well, this word is used in 50 passages.

Well, then you go look up those passages and now understanding the meaning of that word, every single passage reads differently. Yeah, yeah, it's, man, and oh my goodness, I just can't stress enough. Even if you're in the message and you're just gonna say in the message, I mean, at least, at least just get into the Bible more.

And if you're going to just use the KJV, that probably the single greatest help you can get is the, it's a free app, I have an iPhone, but you can download Websters 1828. Now, it's not 100% accurate.

I think from what I know, if you want to know exactly what that old English word means,

then you would need the Oxford English dictionary, which is a pretty massive work. But to just get a sense of it, the Websters 1828, like you really do need to at least have that.

But, man, if you're gonna keep the KJV great, just get into it. I mean, like I was saying, the amount of, I bet the growth that exploded in my soul in that four months' time was just out of this world.

And so that moved on. We started, my wife and I started monthly newsletter type saying, one of the first things to, for whatever reason, I feel like this needs to be the first. I would say the first distinction, And it really has became one of the defining points of our ministry now.

And that is, you could say, local missions. And to give to missionaries overseas, all of that's great, all that's awesome. You know, but there is such a need here in this country.

I mean, everyone's probably by now heard about food insecurity and all of these different things. Even for clothing, you know, that's my goodness. There's such a need there. And, you know, my wife grew up, you know, in a Methodist up until July or August, we were still going there to the church to see grew up in.

And one of the things that I really, really, really even now appreciate about the Methodist, not even just the United Methodist, but other Methodist churches and denominations. There's a heavy focus on missions. And that goes back to Wesley himself.

And if you're a message believer, ask yourself, how many pounds of food has your church donated to a local food bank? And now, I know there, I am sure as I'm sitting here,

someone could comment on this, you know, like, oh, okay, well, right there. Yeah, we have donated to the food bank. So yeah, what? Okay, I would personally guarantee you, you are very few in far between, because every Methodist church that I was in, I would say a losing mark for sure is the lack of giving to the needy.

You know, it's funny too. Ironically, you talk about the charity and giving. This was one of the problems faced by the King James Version translator. So all of that really connects in a way that not many people are familiar with during the time in which they wrote the Bible.

There were a lot of challenges that were faced. And you can look this up online if you search for King James Version Preface. In the preface of the Bible, they talk about the difficulties that they had creating this translation.

Because remember prior to this, you went to the priest and the priest isn't the only one who was allowed to read it. Kind of like in the message today, they, oh yeah. The preachers are the ones who quote, unquote, understand the King James Version and you can't understand it.

Even the prophet said it's not for you to understand and it's weird, but there were several problems. There were several problems. One of the problems was that the language itself, off was incompatible with the culture.

Because remember, if the priest is the only one reading it and the common people didn't, well they're telling people things that they should, you know, don't be vulgar, be nice. When the prophets, they talk about how these languages came to be and the original language was very crude, we would think of it today as a cuss word.

And you and I talked about some passages that are fun if you think about that. In the prophets, it said, the language thereof may be kept from being understood, but we desire that the scripture may speak like itself in the language of the Canaan, that it may be understood even of the very vulgar.

Yeah, they understood, wait a minute, we're not supposed to say some of these things in public. But even more than that, they, you know the passage and half not love, you go through the, what is it called, the beautitudes.

Well there was one single translator that was so adamant that the people had lost the ability to become charitable. They were so self-centered that they had lost this and the actual word is you can have, you know, speaking the tongues of man and angels, but if you have not love and the newer translations use love, well one translator was so adamant that people realized that giving and love are hand in hand, he forced his hand and he said, we're going to use the word charity.

And that's not even the meaning of the word, even though the word encompasses that. It's, you know, we would translate it as love today. So it all fits together and if you really know that history and you were raised in a King James only religion, you look at it and you think, no man, this just, this isn't right.

Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that really stood out to me was the fact of how much the needy was focused on throughout the New Testament. I mean, yeah, that mattered to Peter and James when they first met Paul, when Paul were side-setting Galatians and they said, you know, as long as you're remembering the needy and then Paul says, yeah, and as I had been, you know, and so that was the given and that really stood out to me and it brought to mind the history of the circuit riders

from the 1800s that would go across the country literally on horseback and with the Bible and, you know, all of the, I mean, they were, they were circuit riders, they were traveling creatures that they were literally local missionaries.

And so, you know, I started really, really seeing that and even not only, toward the message, but there are tons of churches where, and I'm not saying people can't have a building to meet in, that's what we're working toward ourselves. But at the same time, you know, a lot of these great big costly fancy buildings that you drive past every day, you know, does the church actually need all of that? And I'm not saying that we've got to meet in you know, at a box or, you know, have a tent or something. You know, I'm not saying that at all,

but it's just the fact of how much of what, you know, you know, the money that we believe is God's money. And he owns a cattle on a thousand hills. How much could be accomplished if that money was actually going toward what the New Testament church did with their money? Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to mention Joel Osteen's church. No. Oh my goodness. Oh, don't get me started on

I think literally a while back, they found money in the church walls or something. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness man. You know, and I never realized John until I heard one of the series that I think it was like 50 part series that you did on the message. I don't think I realized until that that his dad was connected with Brando. Yeah. And you don't yet realize because you mentioned it earlier in the show that Kenneth Copeland is also connected to this.

Oh, for the block thickens, right? Yeah. It's a, I mean, when you take a step back and you realize what this is, this was religious entertainment. And back in the day when, you know, today you, we would never do this. Man, there's so much entertainment on every street corner in life today.

You're not going to find people that would go sit in a hot out of tent and sweat during the summertime. But back then, that's what they did. And then once it got beyond that, well, how do you keep them coming? How do you have to become more entertaining? And so just like the entertainment industry has progressed into the modern times, well, the religious entertainment industry did too.

And it's so absurd when you really think about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It is, it is, it is really, really insane. And even I would say even back then, that's just really a hallmark and unintentional, almost most, if not all Christians back then, if we would have fainted with Christians, and I'm sure there were real Christians, but so much of that just stems from a lack of biblical knowledge.

That's just been growing and growing in our country for, I would say, hundreds of years. And so, you know, I noticed that. And another thing that I noticed was, I did not need a profit to explain any of this to me.

You know, I didn't need any special revelation or some, I didn't need any of that, you know. And I started, you know, especially, you know, I came, it's in, let's say Matthew, Luke, the beginning of Luke, the angel explains that John the Baptist is going to be, you know, all of these things, clearly, you can read before gospel and see that John the Baptist was Malachi 4 or 5 and 6.

And another thing, I want to say about that. So, not only was John the Baptist, Malachi 4, if Jesus said that he was the Elijah that was to come, then that means Brannum was not.

I'm just going to say that right off the bat. And another thing that's really important about that, and to me, if Brannum had all this special, supernatural knowledge, and there's an angel sanding a few feet away from him and is on the platform of his meetings, then how come he didn't know that in the actual Hebrew text, there is no Malachi chapter four.

Exactly. It's all included into chapter three. I'm not to beat the dead horse, but this was eye opening to me because we had that phrase, God who in sundry times and diverse ways spoke to us through the prophets.

They would repeat that phrase over and over and over again. And this makes our point that we're trying, that we've built past and I'm getting the dead horse. But people did not understand what's this word sundry.

We don't use that in today's English. And I still have people argue this with me, they'll go to that verse and they'll say, that means that he's speaking through the prophets to us today.

That's not what that word means, man. In fact, the newer translations long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke through our fathers to the prophets, but in these last days, He spoke through His Son.

And then you continue reading and in the New Testament, it's not a prophet that leads you, it's the Holy Spirit that leads you. But they flipped it upside down and they used the text of the King James version to confuse you into thinking you must have a prophet.

Then, like you said, the Malachi verses, the many other verses they did this with, they tried to apply those verses. us two modern times because they had rewritten that verse as a meaning. Oh yeah, exactly.

And again, if you're a message believer watching this, so one of the first differences I noticed was giving to the needy and that is the focus of our ministry now. Every month we have a donation goal, typically a food item, maybe an article of clothing or some kind of a need that everyone, a common need that everybody has that food banks and shelters always need.

So that's one, that is a negative strike against the message and that's one of the defining points of the ministry that we have now. The next, and I think this will, I think with this one stone can probably take out three or four or five birds, probably.

The next is fidelity description and that is, I would say that is one of the things first and foremost that is at the root of our ministry and it's just this one statement. What did God say?

What did God say? Because we obviously, we have to have a standard, that's why it's called the canon of scripture. You know, canon comes from a measuring read like a yardstick. There is something that sets all the standards that we measure everything by and it is a canon of scripture.

It is scripture alone, one of the solos of the reformation. Now to be clear, it's not soloscriptura, it's soloscriptura. In our ministry, we are not so Bible alone that it's literally the pages of Bible and absolutely nothing else.

You know, you can do that for a while but there's going, as your walk with God grows, I mean, I don't know if this is a perfect analogy. But you know, you can, so say you're into working out, you're into lifting weights and all that.

You have your core complex exercises, typically it's only four or five exercises and that can be pushed up or bench press. then you have your pull-up or your rose or you know then you've got deadlift. Well a lot of like in powerlifting circles and weightlifting you know they're some guys that literally just do bench deadlift squat and I'll honestly yeah if you just sit with those three or you don't even have weight to just do with calisthenics and you maybe have a couple dumbbells for deadlift if you just sit with those three yeah you will build a lot of functionality you will build a lot of strings you know

and so from a spiritual aspect yeah if you you can there's nothing in scripture that says you can you can go Bible alone but there's there's certain issues with that the more that you go on like that and you don't hit those outer areas you know you start to get into the isolate you know everyone knows about the bicep curls and I will you know in the pump behind you know and all that stuff you know when you get into really hitting those little things then you're you get more well rounded and so in our our ministry is solar scripture and that is not only just Bible alone but

it's looking at the the historical orthodox people throughout church history which incidentally Brandon said they would have a little light and then they went this way that's a common thing I remember talking to someone who's still in the message today and and they were saying that and and and oh well yeah no they had some light and they went this way this and and I just said but which way is this way yeah and most message people don't even realize because there's so much of this is where we get into you know the not trying to get too deep into this bucket here

but you know that there's different nuances there's different flavors it's it's just like you know it's maybe in a couple areas where the message could have could have been you know sticking to what something that was said that that is biblical that did happen some not a lot but every now and then there there was some of that you know I know this goes down to a point and but I'm just gonna say it or even a broken clock is right twice a day um so you know you can have that but at the same time there's there's there's so many things I mean I know a lot of

people you know there's churches where they there's infant baptism there's churches where there's not um what you know and those to believe it or not can actually have biblical r arguments as to why. Now, we're not here today to talk about his right or wrong, but it's just an example of there are certain passages that you can interpret different ways. So, you know, our ministry is not just the Bible, and because I think there is a lot of negatives with that. And the biggest negative is that, you know, if you're just some guy sitting under a

tree with nothing but a Bible, and it is just you, and you're just going to do what you read, and there is nothing else additionally to help guide you along, then just by principle, you're not different to William Brown. Well, where you end up with is a really weird place, because if you don't understand the context of what it is you're reading, you really don't understand what it is you're reading. Best example of this is if you look at the years leading up to World War 2, Hitler was actually a very popular guy. He was, you know, there were actually groups in the

United States that were pro-Hitler, and they did not know what he was to become. So, if you had an author who is writing about the times, and he says, and Hitler is this great guy, and he's the leader, you know, of Germany, and well, as you read that, you associate your mind with, okay, Hitler's a good guy. Well, then if the author doesn't write the entire context of why we went to war and all of the real problems with Hitler, and then suddenly they read this passage where, and we went to war with Hitler, you're thinking, okay, the United States just went after this great guy,

and you lose the context entirely, and where you end up with, it's very much like, you know, in the message, there's this thing called circular reasoning, and in circular reasoning, you are, you try to prove something by the thing that you're trying to prove. It's circular, and you know, it's one of the problems with any cult structure, you can't prove the cult by the cult, or you're not examining the cult. Well, Christians do the same thing often with the Bible, they try to prove the Bible by the Bible, and they get into the same circular reasoning that you do

in a cult. Rather than try to understand the context, what was the history like back then? What did the people think back then? What was, I did this exercise when I was going through the kings, because I wanted to understand, you know, there's all of this war, and you know, a lot of things going on in the Old Testament that you really don't get the context of, so I wanted to know, who are these people? What did they stand for? What were the problems?

When you look at it like that the whole thing just comes alive. Oh, yes Yeah, totally And you know that's that's the thing it you just Without that like you say John of it of looking into different things and understanding it deeper and better Which is absolutely necessary Without doing that you would have just been left with your own conclusions And now It's it's kind of like it it's a you hold it from both ends because Yeah, you Like even me and my study and I think this will be helpful to message people because You know you I feel like you do have to have some wisdom when it comes to

What what the authorship is of what you're studying or reading Because I do feel like people still have to maintain of what the Bible actually is and what if itself says it is and Now if they have that perspective, you know, you can tell that that is their thinking then yeah Because I don't want people that are message people to say well, yeah, but you know look at all of this and This is this is one of the points or even where TKJV only advocates today that they could be Baptist or something This this is the point I will give them this I do think there is and if people go and researches it enough everyone will see it

There is a move to change parts of the Bible to make it more Acceptable and politically correct and we're not talking about any of that today But yes, that there that is a danger that is a threat and that can start that can go from something said long ago as Changing the Bible to the point where even a non-Christian could look at it and say yeah something's wrong here like y'all shouldn't be doing that Well, and even something so small as to start re-interpreting key fundamental orthodox Christian doctrines to fit the cultural norm and So there has to be wisdom there, but that is the crux of

Our ministry is what And I don't need William Brannum to tell me I just don't Now granted someone could say well, yeah, but you know So you're probably gonna use a commentary by somebody at some point very you're going to look at what someone 80 years ago Said about something in Romans. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I will here's the difference though that Container's not claiming to be Revelation 10, 7. He's not claiming to be Malachi 4, 5, 6, Luke 17, 30, Jude, 7, whatever else, I mean what however many I think was what we we talked one day about how many scriptures that random twisted up and like you said it probably wouldn't fit on

Shell and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sorry, sorry, opposite of that. Yeah That's not a Freudian slip. That is exactly true

You could probably scour his sermons for 20 years and not come to the end of the list. Absolutely. You know This thought hit me after leaving the cult. You know John the Baptist says I must decrease so that he might increase and You know William Brannum pretended he had this humble stage persona. So he pretended to be humble He pretended to take that theme. I must decrease and Jesus is coming if you believe that version of William Brannum Then maybe that's all right You have to take away about half of what he says about himself to do that

But let's give them that say that they take that Well, then what they have done is Where that figure that a fictional character that I just created in my mind Was decreasing so that Jesus could increase what happened is after Brannum died the cult has the it would be the same as if they had lifted up John the Baptist on a totem pole and said look at this guy don't look at the Jesus look at this guy because this guy told us about Jesus And let's follow this guy and just put Jesus off to the side. That's what the cult has done

Yeah Yeah, ultimately it has um and you know You know, so you know, what did God say and so we we have a fundamental emphasis on the scriptures um, I you know like right now that's on Sundays. We have a live stream and um

And right now I'm going through A live stream here on YouTube and right now I'm going through Matthew. I'm getting ready to start in the Matthew 5 and You know, it's just going verse by verse now. I don't think that you know It should be like that all the time. I do think there's times where you can go topical and things like that But again the bit the biggest fault I think at the core of it with the message was that so much If not everything was taken out of context and so um I do believe you that is a that is an effective way of doing it and I never sat through a whole series of a book in the Bible in the message at all bar

anywhere. And so that's something that we do. We are, we're basically our ministry right now. We are, you know, I would say a Bible church. I guess as to where I am now, where I landed after post-message, I mentioned we're not at the Methodist Church anymore. And so, you know, we are a Bible church and, you know, okay, and then someone could be like, if they do know a little bit about it, okay, so then what do you mean by Bible church? Well, I would say the way that we interpret Scripture, I have really found a home in the reforms doctrines on God

and the teachings of God and the sovereignty of God. And the way that I interpret Scripture, I would certainly lead more that way. And I don't know, I don't I think I've told you before God. I don't really like names and labels. I guess you could say we would be more of reformed Baptist style, so to speak. But at the end of the day, it's really, it just centers on Jesus. You know, it's like there's a clip of a famous preacher these days and he's talking about the man on the cross that Jesus said today, you'll be with me and paradise. You know, what did

he know? He said that even when he was describing what it must have been like when he got to heaven and the angel said, okay, what are you doing here? I don't know. You know, he said, okay, well, can you explain to me the doctrine of the justification by faith? Yeah. And he said, I've never heard of it in my life. I don't know. And at the end of the day, there's so much, and I think that's a mark of, that could be a negative mark of fundamentalism. And yes, what we believe in preach is important because there is Pharisee. And, you

know, I can't call something out of the message that's heresy and then turn around and teach something that's heresy myself. And so, yes, what we believe in preach and teach is fundamental. But the most core thing about it is pointing people to Jesus Christ and Him alone. Because we all have different laws in our lives, that's another negative mark of the message is it's just so anti-biblical, it's so anti-Christ. And yes, I did use that term anti-Christ and that's a whole other episode. But in point of fact, if you're watching this in Europe, a message believer. What do you need to remember is this. All scripture is given by inspiration

of God. These are the things the Bible speaks and claims for itself. The New Testament writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit just as the Old Testament writers. And at the end of the day, if you are twisting that, you're making it say something it does not say, therefore you, whether directly or indirectly, you're lying and you're not just lying about like an encyclopedia or dictionary. You are lying about words, the Holy Spirit inspired. And you are removing Jesus Christ from where He is supposed to be. And you're completely overthrowning you're not actually doing it. Nothing can overthrow Christ from His throne. But you are

dethroning Jesus Christ when you twist up the scriptures and you teach what they are not saying. And John, I really believe just someone taking their time and just breathe through the New Testament. And they are going to see so many things that it's just message, New Testament, message, New Testament, message, New Testament. It just goes on and on and on. You know, they need to be careful because it's like Paul said, Satan himself is an angel of light and don't be surprised if his minister is transforming to angels of like Colossians. I know you've talked

about that before, John, about, you know, about don't be taken, you know, surprised by people that had all the angels and angelic visitations and trips to heaven. And, you know, at the end of the day, I really feel for you, if you're a message believer, I really feel for you because in point of fact,

I'm not saying you don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I am not the judge. I do my best not to have a judgmental ministry. I just try to have a truthful one. But I am duty bound to tell you the truth today. And if you're a die hard message believer, if you do have a walk with Christ,

you're, if he's sitting in the living room, you're walking down at the end of the driveway on your hands and knees. Like you're just not even, you are so, are from the core of it all, you're spiritually starving.

Yeah, I would agree. You know, the biggest thing, I've mentioned several biggest things, but one of the biggest things, probably the biggest thing that hit me after I left is they had taken fear of salvation and turned it into a weapon that was more powerful than salvation.

You mentioned the the Thief on the Cross. Well, did the the Thief on the Cross was he baptized in the oneness baptism or was he baptized in the Trinity? You know, there's no evidence that he was baptized at all.

So, you know, and you can apply almost every argument that we were trained to be scared of in this call. Did he have a relationship with Jesus through his life? There's no evidence of this.

Jesus forgave him for God so loved the whole world that he gave his only son, right? Every single fear argument that they try to weaponize against you, if you apply that to the the Thief on the Cross, not a single one of them can stand, not one.

But, well, this has been fun. I actually, I'm gonna cut it off here, but I actually could do four of these with you. This has been incredibly fun. If somebody wants to go to your YouTube and check you out, where do they go to find you?

So, that is blue collar Bible man. It's all one word, you know, it's spelled out, just like you would. It's just all one word, blue collar Bible man. You talk that into the YouTube search bar and you will, you'll see my face.

I'm sorry to tell you, but it'll pop up. We have the name of the church that we started is real life heavenly church. Then, so then there's the where two emails, one is blue collar Bible man at gmail.com.

The other is real life heavenly church at gmail.com. We are still working on a website. I mean, we're literally in baby steps. So, we're also, we do have a Facebook page. I'm not personally on Facebook, but if someone wants to reach out to us through Facebook, you can find it at real life heavenly church on Facebook.

So, just, we're just walking in the Lord and God is helping us grow tremendously. And if you're in the message or you've came out of the message, you know, maybe, hey, and by the way, you take your time.

You need to be found in Christ and be growing in Christ and that alone. And so, but, you know, if you would, you know, maybe just to get a feel of what to look for, I can give you a very humble, reverent nation of that.

So, yeah, that's basically where people could find what we're doing. Awesome. We'll hopefully people check it out and I'll try to throw a link to that in the description. So if you are wanting more information, you can find them in the description.

If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Branum in the Healing Revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Branum and his message.

Go on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible. www.William-Branum.org www.William-Branum.org