Our Stories: An Interview with Veronica Passage

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Veronica Passage, former message believer. Veronica, it's so good to have you on today to tell your story about being in the message and we're new friends. We, you know, met through the Facebook support groups and I, after leaving this thing, you know, you lose all your friends and most of your family and so every new friend for me is special and I hold dear. You're

you being one of them. So I'm so excited to have you on and tell us your story. Maybe you could just tell us a little bit about yourself. Okay, so I, I was one raised in Washington state and my parents came into the message when I was just really little in the 80s and they were both, they both come from non-Christian backgrounds and so that was, I think that's what attracted them to the message is because it is, you know, it's very a wholesome appearance and whatnot. So that's how I was raised.

As an only child and my parents were both pretty much non-typical as you would think of message parents because they gave me a lot of freedom which, you know, isn't the case for many of our friends. You know, that's more common than not. There are people that's their first experience with learning what they consider to be Jesus and, you know, to be honest, many of them joined the message or were born and raised in it and they truly believe in Jesus. They're just falsely told what Jesus is or falsely told what God is and so when you try to take that away from people

that that's all they've ever known, they do feel somewhat that you're taking Jesus away. Why would you do this? Why would you leave Jesus? But not understanding because they've been falsely told that Jesus is not found outside of this group. If you go to another church, you're still, you still believe in Jesus, but they're falsely told what Jesus and what God is and the world doesn't have it. So I see that a lot. People, you know, why would you leave the message? Why would you leave God and you have to understand that they're two separate things. Yeah. Yeah. And I have had

conversations with other people who say similar things like that. Like it was really hard to for them to take those two things apart after they started seeing some of the issues and things. So like I said, they were a little bit more lenient.

They let me have more freedoms, which was kind of good and kind of bad, meaning that I was heavily influenced by the group itself, you know, since my parents weren't like necessarily beating me over the head with it.

But the environment that I was in is what really influenced me and some life decisions and things like that. So yeah, basically. So I'll start kind of from when I was a younger kid is back and then they preached all of the brand of sermons, like the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I kind of feel like now, present day, they kind of shy away from those, you know, certain topics that aren't so, but I distinctly remember sitting in the pew and hearing these sermons about women being designed by Satan and, you know, women in pants are an abomination and my little eight-year-old heart is just sitting there being like, what?

Like my grandma's are an abomination. You know, it really, it was upsetting as a small child. And I remember, and as I got older too, sometimes I would feel like, I would feel like my heart was just pounding and it just, and looking back, I'm like, I always think I was having an anxiety attack, you know?

I don't know, but, you know, they don't be up there talking about during the tribulation, there will be giant spiders bigger than a house and like, and I'm an arachnophobe, so that freaked me out.

And I don't know if that's so from a early age, you know, I definitely had things in my head where I'm like, really, you know, it was scary. It was a scary thing for a little kid to grow up in.

Yeah, you know, a lot of people are unaware that the giant bugs was a prophecy that was handed down through all of the different splinter groups. There, one guy, I think we covered him in one of the documentary, little two minute shorts, but one guy, Roger Rudin, was really big into this, the giant birds with the, I don't know what it was, a five mile wingspan or something that he said.

And see, I'm a science fiction and fantasy guy. I love this stuff. I grew up reading books like my favorite book growing up was The Hobbit and Merlin. I would read all of these fantasy fiction books.

And so when they talk about giant birds, I wasn't really scared. I was like, man, that would be really cool. Can you imagine? and the giant birds and the giant bugs, and the birds swooping down and eating the giant bug.

But as I got older, you know, and as the Bible says, as I, when I was a child, I spoke like a child, and then when I became an adult, I put away childish things.

When I got older, I kind of didn't talk about that, because when you're around your friends and you're trying to witness about, quote unquote, Jesus, we thought we had, you know, them hearing about giant bugs, really doesn't persuade them to join your faith.

Ha ha ha. Exactly. That's funny. So yeah, so then kind of moving on into my teenage years, and I don't know. It's, I wasn't like, I wasn't like the goody-two shoes kid, but, and I wasn't like the most rebellious kid, either, I was kind of in between somewhere.

I think most of us were. And so something that kind of was a reoccurrent thing, that I noticed is like, it wasn't about doing the right thing because that's what you should do. It was like, so that you don't get in trouble.

Or, you know, it was all fear-based. Everything we did was based off of fear. And one thing that happened a lot when I was a teenager is that if somebody not caught doing something that was bad, then they had to go in front of the church and apologize.

And I fortunately never had to do that, but I was terrified, terrified. Like, one of my friends, a girl got caught or seen by somebody on the ski hill, and she was wearing snow pants without a scared over it, and she had to go apologize for that.

And just the silliest things, and, you know, looking back, and of course I have my own kids, and I'm like, I don't want my kids to be doing things just because they're scared of getting caught.

Like, that's just, I don't know. So I think it just creates like this backwards.

You know, we didn't, well, I can't say we, because I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, like, it creates a tweaked version of Christianity, like, that's not, that's really not how it's supposed to be.

Yeah, I think I've mentioned this a few times, but when I first started my website, I get this lady that contacted me thinking that I was actually the brand of organization, not the, you know, the one who was exposing the dark secrets of said organization, but she was struggling because she lived in the coldest climate in Alaska, and she wrote in saying, brothers, I really want to be a message believer and a child of God, and she put the two the same.

Like, you had to be Christian, you had to be a message believer. I really want to be a believer. I really want to believe in Jesus, but I can't wear. those skirts like this because my legs would freeze in the skin.

I would get frostbite and see she literally wrote in her letter denouncing Christianity because of the dress code. She was leaving Christianity because of the dress code and it breaks your heart when you hear that stuff.

But to the point of the skiing, I know children who did this that you're going to freeze and you have to wear the pants under the skirts, but they would make the daughters wear the skirts if they went on the ski slopes.

Well, that's dangerous too, right? You shouldn't do certain sports with this thick dress over you. And so the whole thing is dangerous. The whole thing is absurd and they have somehow bonded it onto Christianity and, you know, you go study the ancient cultures what this came from and it just makes no sense.

The guys wore the robes, right? It's not a dress isn't something that pertains to a woman. The guy wore the robe too back in the old days. So for me, when I walked away from this thing and seeing the lady who had tied that to her Christianity, I realized there is something really wrong with this.

Oh, yeah. That's, I know. That's so sad to hear stories like that because it really is a mixed, like it's a, it's false advertising really, you know, and I really thought about that in the recent years of like, you know, a dress code being posted on the door of a church.

Like, is that something Jesus would have done? Like, I seriously don't think so. So yeah, so basically, I was homeschooled a lot, but my parents let me go to public school for high school, well, well for one year.

So I did that and I'm thankful for that because it, it helps me have somewhat of a better education. And so basically, let's see, the summer that I was 15, I had had, well, I, I don't want to go into detail, but I kind of had a scare where basically a boy I was dating came on a little too strong and it scared me and I was very naive and I didn't, like, I wasn't, I just didn't know a lot about any of that kind of stuff and, and then in addition to that, some of the kids I was hanging out with in high school, they started going down

some sketchy paths and, you know, trying different things and whatever and it, it kind of started to scare me and I was like, I know that's not what I want for my life. And so, you know, I'm like, something that was really common in our church set was, some of the girls got married extremely young, I mean 16 years old and so...

And we were not really encouraged to do anything else. And so my little naive brain thinking like, oh, well, maybe I need to get married, that would kind of like, that would be like a source of, I don't know, security, I guess, is kind of what I was looking for.

So yeah, because so I had started talking to this guy who was quite a few years older, like five and a half years older than me. And it's so funny how the group acts towards something like that, I had just barely turned 16.

And this guy that was interested in me came from a well-respected message family. And the adults in our church, they just glum onto it, like they just glum on. And they're like, oh, you guys are such a cute couple.

And oh, when's the wedding and all this stuff? And I'm just like thinking back. And I'm like, dude, I was a child, like, what in the world? So yeah. And oh, and the funny thing is, is like, some of the other boys I dated, whether they were from school or some of the more rebel boys from church, or whatever, they sure weren't saying it with those ones.

But as soon as there was a good guy, you know, all of a sudden it's like, oh, you should get married. Yeah, great idea. OK, anyways. So as you can imagine, that went really fast.

And yeah, so I was a 16-year-old bride. And I'm sure anybody can imagine how that turned out. Well, it's so odd when you think back. In the larger churches, where there's a large pool of people from which you can date.

And you have a selection of people your age is much different. But I went to some very small churches. And there weren't many people. In fact, I want to say that there were probably four or five different guys that there was no girl their age.

So they were actually looking at the younger ones. And when I say young, I'm talking well below the 16-year-old age. And I never really clicked until I was talking to Naomi Wright that, no, that's grooming.

That's very wrong what they were doing. They were grooming the women to become brides for them. And I won't give their names, but I know somebody personally who they got married very early. I want to say maybe 16 or so.

But they had a friend that when her husband would go to work, her husband had built her a treehouse. And she would climb up in the treehouse and play with her dolls in the treehouse while he was gone.

And she was that young. So we're talking very, very young brides. And you know, It's just so wrong. When you think about Christianity and think about just normal human life, nobody wants to grow up in a life where they're told who you have to marry and even in the message they make fun of, you know, other cultures for this kind of thing. But when it really comes down to it, it's like one step away from pre-arranged marriage in this thing. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

It really is. Yeah. And it just, it really speaks to the influential power of a group to make you do things that are just kind of, I mean, for lack of better words, kind of nuts. So, yeah. So basically, you know, so there I am, married and all my other friends are, you know, finishing high school and that kind of stuff. And, you know, I'm not here to talk about like the details of that marriage, but I will just say that it wasn't good. It wasn't good. It wasn't healthy. It, you know, things started happening pretty quickly, like, you know, pretty right off the bat. And I kind of knew it.

I kind of knew it, but I was very much in denial and also, you know, divorce is not an option. So I just kind of thought like, well, I made this choice. I have to live with it. And, you know, it just, it was, it was ugly. And, um, you know, since I don't want to go into the detail here, I, I actually did, I actually did do, um, like a story for, um, the casting pearls project.

And so, you know, if anybody thinks they need to know anything about that, it's on there. And so, yeah, anyways. Yeah, I, you know, being a man, I had a much different experience than you being a female, obviously, but I was also in the cult elite. So you talk about how you did things just for the ruleless, well, whatever you're, you're related to the pastors, you're, it's a different mindset altogether. You know, we, I was in some of the homes where some of the leaders and their immediate family and their homes had televisions, for example. And back in the version of the message

that I left, that was a big no, no, you did not have a TV, right? Today, it's a little bit different. I think they've tried to shift and become less oppressive, but it was an oppressive religion, especially during the, you know, 80s, early 90s when I was in it. But the rules are different.

And then if you're female, it's almost like your life, it really isn't your own. The decisions you make aren't your own. Um, whenever I had the confrontation over the phone with my grandfather and, um, explaining why I feel that there are problems with the message. I wasn't even leaving. I just felt there were problems, and I had questions, and he cut us off. He cut me off for asking the questions, but he had not even spoken with my wife or my children, and suddenly they're cut off, and how is it they say, we turn you over to Satan for the destruction of your flesh,

right? So she did not even have a choice in the matter. Her soul wasn't her own in his mind. It was like linked to me in such a way that if my soul is going to hell, she has to go by default.

Oh my goodness, yes, that's so that's so true, and you don't have a voice, you don't feel like you're heard, you know? And then even just the women, they don't like, there's certainly no such thing as women's Bible study or anything like that, and the women don't really, well, I mean, at least when I was in my 20s, late teens early 20s, they didn't talk about struggles. Like everybody just kind of put on this facade of perfection, and then so then when your life is a disaster in your marriage, it's terrible, and whatever you feel, you feel like you are such

a problem. Like I thought I was just such a terrible person, because I couldn't figure this thing out, and you know, and I went into this cycle of like self blame, because I don't know, I just figured that the only reason my life was like that is it had to have been my fault. And so, you know, I was just constantly trying to, trying to do better, trying to be perfect, you know, that, of course, you know, that doesn't work, marriage is a two way street, you have, it has to be effort on both sides, and you know, that just, it just turned into this like waterfall effect

of over and over, and you know, and then I would be like, oh, oh, it'll get better, and that day never comes, you know, and it's just, I don't know, and then of course, a lot of people who are having a hard time in their marriage, they're like, oh, let's have kids, that'll fix it, which, you know, not so much. However, I, I really loved being mom, I just, my kids were like, they were my world, and if it weren't for them, I mean, gosh, I don't even know, I don't even know where I would be right now, because they were my driving force, you know, for the next, for the next

hour, many years. I don't know if you've seen it or not, there's the show Shiny Happy People about the Docky family, and it's actually a, it's also a song by REM, which is one of my favorite groups, so it's, you know, kind of funny in my head, but that, that's very common among coals.

you have to present this, not have to, but you're manipulated in such a way that you present this atmosphere that you're happy, everything is bliss and when people get in, they're really attracted to that bliss.

Once they get in it, whenever you can only keep your emotions up at all times for so long before you start to feel really burdened by trying to do that. And especially if you're an emotional person, which I am, and you start to feel this weight that doesn't exist because you're trying to be something you're not. And I think that of all of the things that people have mentioned in the support groups when they leave this thing, I think that's the number one relief that everybody has. I don't have to be this person that I'm not, especially the ones who are like me who are emotional. There are

also people who, their personality isn't such that it can present a happy person. So when they're in it, they have like this false personality altogether because that's not who they are. And then when they release that, they're like, oh, freedom. Oh my goodness, yes, that's very, very relatable.

So yeah. So basically into my mid-twenties, I felt like I wasn't even myself. I felt very depersonalized. I don't know how else to say it. And some of the, I was trying to be all perfect and stuff, but I couldn't help, like I would have thoughts in my head, or, you know, confusion, and, you know, like our church would preach sermons about that it's grace, not works, you know, Ephesians 289, which is my favorite, my favorite verse. I think you said it was yours too, which is funny because I think we, it's because we now understand what it actually means.

But, you know, back then, like, yeah, they're saying all the right stuff. We're not all the right stuff, but they're saying some of the right stuff, but like, that's not what's happening. Like, they're literally obsessed with works. Outer appearance works. It's like, you know, what that does to your brain when you're in it, you're just like, wait, what? You know, and it's just, and it would just get more and more and more, I guess, rigid. I mean, I remember one entire sermon, the entire sermon, one of the preachers preached about denim skirts that have a fly and how if you were

standing behind a counter, somebody might mistakenly think that you were wearing jeans. Like, wow. Oh my goodness. Like, it's not just wear skirts. It's like, they have to be mid calf. They have to be not tight. They can't have a slit. They can't have a fly, you know, blah, blah, and it just gets exhausting and you're just like, well, really? It's not just the rules. It's the appearance of the rules. That's whenever a cult gets into their most destructive phase, that's the way it is. It's not just that you're abiding by it, but everybody else can't perceive you any differently. And again, it's the shiny happy people

effect. You're trying to create this atmosphere. One of, I'll embarrass myself. I don't, I don't know, I've ever said this publicly, but it's kind of funny. And now this name is horrific. So it's a shame. I have to use it. But we, I was in the cult elite. So there were things that I got to do that the others didn't. And one of them was we had this old record of Bill Cosby, which again, bad name. I hate that I'm using it. You know, it is what it is. But it was one of his comedy skits,

incredibly clean fun on this comedy skit that I had. And the one of my favorite was the Westerner because I like these old Westerns. He would go into the bar and he would say, oh, I'll have a glass of milk, please. And he, you know, kicked their butts. It was a crazy, funny skit that he did. Well, the first time that I had to go to Las Vegas on a business convention, while I was in the message, I was like, I was mortified. I was like Indiana Jones. We're pilgrims in an unholy land. And he bottled up in my turtle shell and everywhere that we went that had

even the, well, every place had alcohol, but everywhere where there was a place where everybody was sitting and drinking just so that everyone was aware that I wasn't drinking alcohol. And the waitress would come and say, what do you want, John? I said, I will have a glass of milk, please.

I'll bet I'd drink like two gallons of milk that night. It was insane. And I'll never forget this quite beautiful attractive Russian lady walked up to me one time and said, what do you want to drink?

I said, I'll have a glass of milk. Oh, you want a white Russian. I'm like, oh, no, no. I'm in Vegas. And there's this white Russian. Give me asking me for a white Russian. But you know, you try to put on this appearance. And in the end is that even faith, right? Because you're trying to present something that is fantasy in the, in the first place. It's not even that the rule is the problem. It's the perception of the rule that is the problem. Oh, yeah. Goodness. Yes. Exactly.

And, you know, here you are living this life that is, well, I mean, it's kind of a facade because you really, like, I didn't have an open and honest conversation for 30 years of my life, like quite literally where I just stare everything because you hold back because you don't, you don't want, I don't know, you don't want to be judged. You don't want people to be disappointed in you. I don't know what it is, but you just, you're living, it's like you're living a half of yourself. I don't know. Anyways, so, so yeah, basically, you kind of, it just

kind of starts breaking down after a while for me anyway. And so then I started, I started kind of have any more questions in my head, you know, like, well, you know, why, why would, it seems like that would be God kind of tricking people if he sends this random obscure profit that nobody's ever heard of. And that's, that's the only way, like that doesn't even make sense. I'm like, nobody even knows who this is. And then on top of that, we didn't really tell anybody. I mean, I never talked, I, or any of my friends, like, we never

told anybody about the religion we were in. We just avoided it. And that's, that's weird too, because that's like opposite of Christianity also. So, basically, so around 2010, I, I read these two books, and they were biographies, two different women who had escaped from the FLDS, Fundamentalist Mormon group, after Warren Jeff's was arrested and all that. And these books like shook me to my core, because some of the things that they were talking about, it was too relatable. And I'm like, why am I relating to people who came out of a very, like, a very severe cult group? And that was very disturbing. And of course, of course, I,

I tried to ignore it, and I did, and I love this phrase, by the way, mental gymnastics, that's the funniest thing, because it's so, it's so accurate. Like, it's exactly what you do. Your mind just does everything that it can to talk you out of these red flags that come up. So, that, that was kind of a big deal, like, that was kind of a pivotal thing for me.

Anyways, and then another thing is kind of random, but it's, Pinterest was a really big deal back then. And so, I was just on Pinterest one day, and like, a little informational post caught my eye, and it was describing narcissistic personality disorder. And so that kind of started the ball rolling on that, because it was very relatable. I don't even remember what it said, but it was too relatable, you know, for me to ignore. And so I started researching that a little bit, and whoa, like, my mind was blown, because it was literally like exactly how my life was. And

so, yeah, so then that started helping me understand that, like, there's not necessarily something wrong with me, and that, you know, it was just, it was a problem that I had no way of fixing, anyways. And so then, yeah.

I, I kind of felt, it sort of kind of made me feel a little bit even more trapped because I'm like, oh, okay, so now I'm stuck in this marriage and this, this thing is happening and I can't do anything about it and it just, I did kind of go into a depression.

I mean, I really felt trapped. I really had no self-confidence and I started kind of like cycles of self-sabotage like I was not making healthy choices and you know, I was just getting really down.

One thing I remember in particular that really, it kind of made me wake up a little bit actually about how bad it was getting is that there was on the news, there was a mom who had, and I don't, I don't remember the details other than she, she killed her children and then herself and shoot, this is going to get me, anyways, and you know, the world is just like, the world's reaction is like, oh, that's awful, what a horrible person, who could do that?

And my reaction was like, I mean, I did kind of feel like that too, but also in my head I was just kind of like, dude, though I get it, I understand why she did that and, and that scared me because I'm like, this is not okay, like I am not, this is not, I'm not in a good place and something has to change, it has to, yeah, it's really hard.

When you're in this kind of thing, like, like I said, that mental oppression, that burden that's in your, feels like it's on your shoulders, but it's actually in your head and over time that problem just, it's like a snowball going down a hill, it gets bigger and bigger whether you want to think about it or not, and often if you don't think about it, it gets worse, and like you, I studied the Warren Jeff's whenever all that was hitting the news, and is either right before or shortly after, there was the Jody areas thing that was eye opening for me,

because I've seen two different people and two different cults, and yet it looks so similar to what we had escaped. I was, gosh, I was probably only two or three years out of the message at that point, but I was fascinated, I like watch the news constantly whenever that was on, because I was seeing these people and the things that they were saying were exactly what we would have said if the pastor of our church had just been taken out by the government and locked up, and if their responses are the same, it's an indoctrinated program to response, why are they having

their cult, why are they having this, and we had the same exact responses, very eye opening for me to watch that, and like you said that, you know, it's a burden that you can sympathize with because you've been through it. There are people who don't- don't even have mental health issues, but they feel like they do because of this oppression and when they leave, they have this new perspective on all things, people who are, you know, they're people who do very, very bad things in this world, but if you examine what led up to that, you can relate to a lot of milestones in their life and it's hard to think through,

but it's also very eye-opening to see the similarities in the comparisons. In fact, I'm working with a few different cult experts and one of the things that they do in the exit, you know, the exit interviews and process that they go through, they will show the cult member examples of other cults and either videos or documents or sometimes they read segments of books so that they can relate and see the similarities and they'll read a lot of them because you don't know which one of those things is going to hit home with them, but one

one thing or another, they're going to find that the one cult that they're examining is very similar to the one cult that they're leaving and all of this to say, I feel you're paying a lot when I even still today when I see things like this on the news because of what we've been through, it's painful to watch and yet at the same time you can sympathize with whatever has happened.

Absolutely, yeah, yes, and it's like I watch pretty much every cult documentary that they ever put on because it's just, I don't know, it's just, it's just weirdly relatable and it just makes you feel like knowing that there's other people who relate to you is such, I don't know, is it a good feeling?

I don't know, it just feels like, okay, after years of having no one that gets you, so I highly recommend if you haven't seen it, you have to mix, you know, these cult documentaries, they're very scary and they're very bad, but you need some light-hearted ones too, if you haven't seen it, check out the Incredible Kimmy Schmidt. So funny, it's a comedy, but she was in a cult and she escaped and although it's far, it's over the top, the things that she's doing that is so over the top, you can actually relate to a lot of them. Yeah, I'll have to watch that one,

that sounds good, for sure, I like all those things. So basically, yeah, so I knew something had to change and when I, well when I talked to my ex-husband about it, you know, he didn't take it well because I'm like, you know, I basically said like we need to separate, you know, whatever and like I said, I'm not gonna go into those details, but I did, I did contact a domestic violence hotline and they were an amazing source of, I don't know, just advice, I guess, they kind of helped me with some ideas to kind of get a plan and

Um, for this operation, and it was scary, and anyways, I don't know about that. So, so then here I am, a new, a newly single mom, and you know, my parents, uh, basically took me in, and all of us in, I had three kids at that time, and um, they were 8, 10, and 11.

Anyways, and so then I'm a, I'm like, okay, I'm single mom now. I just, I'm like, this is terrible. This is never what I wanted. This is certainly not what I wanted for my kids.

It was really a dark place for me, and I mean, it was, I say dark place, I mean, in my head physically. It was a thousand times better, and you know, we, we were, we felt safe in all of that anyways.

But um, but I was like, you know, I was, I was, I was, well, I mean, I was kind of mad at God. Like, why did this happen? Like, why? Why? Like, my kids deserve better than this, and you know, but, but one thing I did do is I prayed.

I prayed that I would not become bitter, because I had seen a lot of people who left our church become bitter, and that was the norm. Like, that was pretty much everybody who left.

They were bitter, and they, you know, they didn't want anything to do with, with God or Christianity or any of that, and I'm like, I don't want that. So I just prayed, and you know, so all these, when I talk about the bitterness, it's, you know, all these people, the adults and stuff in our church, it's like, you know, those are the, this group is the, pretty much the only people I know or ever have known.

Where were they? Like literally where? All these people who had talked to me into getting married at 16, all of a sudden, it's crickets. Like, I just went through something incredibly hard. Nobody, nobody checked in on me, except for one friend.

I had one friend who stayed in contact with me and, and still is, and, you know, that broke my heart. It did, it really did. Yeah, I have very similar experience. Although mine is somewhat different because my own grandfather, the pastor, said, turn you over to Satan for the destruction of your flesh, which to the rest of the group means, you know, you can't go see John because now he is demon possessed, and that, that body is now infested with Satan, so don't go near him.

So that was a bit of a different experience, but I, you know, still to the same effect, I left this thing with some very severely traumatic things happening in my life. We were going through some very hard times, and like, like you, we had nobody, nobody came to us, nobody said, hey, why did, why did you go for the destruction of your flesh?

Why did you want to be turned over to Satan? Not a single person did this. The closest thing I got. was a letter from my aunt, which was written in one of those sympathy forms, but it was basically to sum up what you said. I'm very sorry you're left, but be gone with you. This sum of what was said, and I can joke about it now, but at the time I was going through it, this was extremely hard because you've just lost everyone. How did you cope with that? How did you get over the fact that, you know,

suffering with this loss and you had one friend? What were the things that you did to, I'm going to keep it together? Well, pretty much, thankfully, I had my kids. And so, you know, I was just determined to do everything in my power to make sure that they had somewhat of a normal life. And so I really just, you know, I was really focused on them. And so one of the things actually that I did is,

the, my boys had kind of wanted to join Boy Scouts. And here we are, here I am a single mom then. I'm like, okay, you guys want to join Boy Scouts? Okay, they're like, sure, yeah. So, so they did. And that's actually where I met my current husband. And it's funny. And I just, I have to say, it was a god thing because, seriously, like, I was the farthest away from wanting a relationship at that point. Like, I was definitely not looking, definitely not. But I met him and we really just, we really hit it off, you know, those, when you meet somebody and you're just really, you just really click

anyways. So, so yeah, so after a while, we, you know, we were dating and whatnot. And he has a way of, like, he's not afraid to say things. Like, he's not rude about it, but he's not afraid.

He doesn't meet around the bush. And, you know, he would go out to the message church with me because I was still going. Like, even though I had committed spiritual suicide myself because I thought I was a complete and utter failure. And that I couldn't do it, whatever. But I was like, I'll take my kids because I want them to, um, I want them to know the truth. So I was still taking them, you know, so anyways, so he would come out there with me and then every other weekend, we would rotate. And I would go sit in church, which is just like a normal Christian church. And

after a while, he kind of started to figure some things out. And like, hmm, I don't think this is just a cute little old-fashioned church, you know, on the corner kind of thing. And so he kind of did a little bit of research and whatnot. And then, you know, he kind of would talk to me and be like, hey, um, you know, that church would go to, there's kind of some red flags, you know, and I was excited. I was excited.

extremely defensive and but you know we had the relationship to where he could show where I would listen even though I was defensive and but he would say a couple things that like I couldn't I couldn't answer to it nor could the mental gymnastics be good enough to like get reasoned out of my mind and one of the things in particular that I remember him saying was basically it was basically something like having to defend I mean having having to depend on a prophet like to hear the words of God is kind of like a slap in the a slap in

Jesus' face for what he did for us and giving us the gift of the Holy Spirit like we don't need prophets anymore and I was like in my mind I was just like whoa I just didn't know what to think about that but I couldn't like I couldn't get it out of my head you know and it's like the Luke 16-16 thing the law of the prophet's core until John and I don't know that was kind of a pivotal moment for me and like I don't want to slap Jesus in the face like I love him you know

so anyways that was kind of the very very beginning of my healing journey I guess you could say and so you know then I'm I'm going to this other church and which by the way they literally just teach the Bible that's it no opinions no screaming no like you know roundabout fluffy whatever they just read the Bible and talk about it and talk about what it means it was incredible and I learned so much just in a short span of time and it made me realize like dang 30 years of my life in church I hardly knew anything about the Bible

did you tell your husband about the giant ants I actually don't think I've ever told him yeah you know when we left the cult and we we tried a few different churches but more specifically we tried a few different groups of Bible studies and in fact I think my wife might be involved in two or three different Bible studies from different churches at this point but just going through a Bible study itself will will make you just turn all the stuff in your head that you had and just turn it upside down and say what in the world was

this what this wasn't Christianity what was it right you mentioned Luke 16 16 and that was one of the things that hit me like a brick wall when I was in one of the Bible studies because in the context of the message they they'll take verses out of context right and that verse they'll try to make it mean something that it doesn't. Well there is no way that you can take that verse and make it mean anything other than what it says, the law and the prophet, the law meaning the Old Testament, if you really consider the books of Moses as the law,

this part of the Bible and the prophets were until John, and then after this, the phrase essentially means the gospel, but it's the good news of the kingdom. That phrase doesn't fit within the message at all, and then once you dive a bit deeper into this and you start to understand that

it wasn't just that they took verses out of context, but they also took verses and they made their meaning the reverse of what it said. The biggest of which is God in Sunday, sundry times and diverse manners spoke to us through the prophets. Today speaks to us through his son. Well, if you go back and you look at what was said in any of the sermons or any of the quotes of William Brannum, he's saying that this means that you need a prophet to interpret it to you, but if you read the summary of what's being said, no God spoke to the prophets in days of old,

now he's spoken through his son, and then when a son died, he sends the Holy Spirit to guide us. That's the essence of the gospel, the essence of Christianity, and when you take that theme, which is exactly that, God's in his son, he died, now he sent the Holy Spirit, now try to make that fit in a compatible way with the message, we need a prophet for this aid, because the world is dying, and unless you hear this prophet guy, you're going straight to hell, and I'll sell your soul to the devil if you don't listen to me. Well, it's fully incompatible

with Christianity. Yes, oh my goodness, yes, so much, and learning that over the next course of years after that was really, really enlightening, and you feel like you literally feels like you lose weight off of your shoulders. It's pretty amazing. So one of the things that spoke pretty loudly to me is because like I said before, I really hardly knew anybody outside of my church group, but I got a job as a teacher's aid, and so I was working with a lot of women who were Christian, and they were just so sweet. They just embraced me, and I could feel that they actually cared for me,

and they weren't afraid to talk about their faith. I mean, it's not like they were running around Bible-thumping all the time, but like they said things that made it evident that they were Christian, and they showed so much like care for me, and I'm like a stranger. Meanwhile, I've been completely abandoned by my church family and these random strangers are showing me authentic love and Whoa, like I couldn't get that out of my head and like if they are like, you know The lesser Christians or their fake Christians or whatever it is like how can they seem so real?

like and they're showing their zippers Oh So that was that was a big deal for me and then

Just realizing certain things, you know I would see a guy sitting in church who had all sorts of tattoos all upon his neck and face and the whole deal and You know, he's just sitting there enjoying service and I'm like He would so not feel welcome in a message church and then think it about how like How wrong that is and I don't know just little things like that and um I had kind of You know, I had kind of pushed the whole like Uh You know questioning the message thing out of my head. I was kind of like in a

middle zone where I didn't I didn't believe it. Obviously, but I also did not believe it. I guess and um but the year so It was the summer of 2015. Yeah, and I had decided like You know, I've never done it before so I think that I should probably read the Bible like from beginning to end And so I made it as far as Genesis 4 And it's the part where it talks about Adam and Eve And the conception of Kane Yes, and I started and I read it again. I read it like four times and I'm like

Then I just start crying and like what like that completely disproves the whole syrupy seed thing You know, and I'm like what in the world and so then I I started researching that on the computer and that's how I found um What's it called believe the sign?

website the website yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and um so I started looking at that and like I cannot Explain what this felt like but like basically my heart was like pounding out of my chest I was shaking like just at the idea of like Of questioning the prophet And I was like it was like I was seriously having an anxiety attack But I did it and I I did some research and I one of the first things I found was the um The the like halo picture where it's a light bulb and

Like I was so shocked. I could not believe that. I was just like What in the world And you know, so that took me into more research and um I ordered your book. I it might be your first book the one about I've survived a cult And I read that and that was holy cow even though you know you're a guy and I'm not and but it was still incredibly reliable and I had never I'd never even talked to anybody else who ever left the message and so that was that was pretty amazing and then yeah so then once I finally came to the understanding of

what it was like what the message is and like I understood that and I could admit it it my life was dramatically better like the that weight of fear that had constantly been pressing on me my whole life it was it was gone it was just like I don't want to sound like I'll cliche or whatever but it really really is like a huge weight is lifted off and you know it's you're just you're no you know that song you're no longer a slave to fear I can't remember who sings it but I just love that song because it's just very very it has a lot of

meaning for me and just my journey of what I went through you know that was one of the milestones for me was being able to say the word called as funny as that sounds when you look at what I do I was I was actually on the news and the silhouette whenever I first left this thing and the news reporter wanted to interview me about the cult but I said I would only do it if he did not use the word cult in the interview and sadly he used it but even funnier you know and

it's still to this day it blows my mind so I'm in silhouette because you know I run my own IT business and at that time it would have been disastrous for my IT business for me to be on the news like that well he he put the silhouette over me and he used the name Michael which is my father's name so every single person who hears my voice they know who I am and they use my father's name and the whole thing was just so I was so surreal thinking back but being able to say the word cult was a huge milestone because it it kind of put up a wall between who I am now

and what I once was yeah oh yeah definitely I remember I remember um looking up the definition of cult too that that same summer of 2015 and I think I don't remember exactly to say but it was like seven bullet points and six of them were like spot on and one of them was like kind of and I was like holy cow like you know that's just a word that we our society doesn't define very well you know because you just think of like the extreme ones but that's just that's just a really small small part of what a cult is and so yeah that was that was a big deal like getting over the

seaward it was a big deal and um yeah so then and basically from that point on, then you kind of like I would want to read the Bible and study it just because I wanted to, not because anybody told me that that's what I should do or whatever, and that's a big difference too.

And then going to Bible studies and stuff, which is really neat, like Bible studies are cool. I love them anyways. And just learning, like relearning a lot of things, for example, one of my favorites is, so anybody who grew up in the message knows about the teachings about women, how basically like you're subpar human and you are an afterthought and you're a byproduct and all of that.

But I did this Bible study that had the breakdown of the word, help meat. And like what it means in Hebrew and the word is like, easier connect though. And it means life saver alongside.

And the other times in the Bible where it's used, it's talking about God. And I'm like, what? So somebody took that word and made it into something really ugly when in reality it's something that's really special.

And so that's so neat to me. And like relearning some of this stuff has just been super awesome. And I'm just so thankful. And then one other thing is, so I'm not a very, like,

extroverted person. I'm pretty shy naturally and whatnot. And but something just kind of changes in your mind when you're, I don't know, when you go through something and then you kind of, you realize that there are other people out there who are in that same like bondage.

It is, it's bondage. And you just feel the need to help them. So one thing that happened about a year ago is I would share things on my social media account, my personal one.

And you know, Bible verses are just little encouraging things wherever. And then I had a couple of young ladies who are in the message, reach out to me and basically say like, basically what they told me was, well, I've never seen anybody leave our church who is a, who is a Christian.

Like they all just, they always just leave and they're just done. And they don't, they don't want anything to do with, with, with God. And just, I mean, just to say, I totally understand why, why they do that.

I totally do. But anyways, so these young ladies were reaching out to me and, and, um, It just made me realize, oh, that's really too bad. That's really sad, because they kind of would confide in me and be like, I really don't believe it, and I want to leave, but I'm too scared, blah, blah, blah, and I'm not telling them what to do or anything, but I just wanted to be a source of encouragement.

So I started an Instagram account, and I named it only Believe the Bible, and it's incredible how many people have reached out to me. I never expected much to happen with it, but I'm like, it'll be there if there ever is anybody who needs some encouragement, and like, hey, I feel you, I got, like I understand you, it'll be there, but the activity has been so much more than I ever expected, but I just, I don't know, I just, even though I'm super shy, I would have loved to just go on living my life and not even ever think about any message stuff ever again, but knowing

that there are people who are in that horrible, you know, that prison, that mental prison, I just, I can't, like, I can't be quiet, I can't, and so that's why I just, I want to share.

You know, it reminds me, this is such a bad example, but I'm going to give it anyway. It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where the girl is dating George, and after she breaks up, she no longer likes men, and the whole episode is about George going over that.

She no longer likes, she no longer likes men, after seeing me, I'm devastated. Well, think of the church, man, you're in a church where everybody's leaving, and they no longer like God. There's something wrong here, if you really think about it.

Now I know a lot of people who've left the message that are still Christian, but they all go through this phase of deconstructing, because what they were told was God isn't real, and what they were told about God is not from the Bible, it's from this narcissistic prophet guy, and quite frankly, the God of the message isn't a God that anybody who leaves wants to continue having anything to do with whatsoever.

So they do abandon that God, but it's not like they're abandoning the real God, they're abandoning that God. And then once some of them come and counter Christians like you did, and they meet people who tell them, well, no, what they're telling you isn't quite right, and they open up the Bible, and they show you what God really is.

Some of them, thankfully, go back into Christianity, into healthy churches. But you mentioned being an introverted person, which believe it or not, I myself had that title. When you're in a cult that implants the cult identity in you, especially for a female, your cult identity was that of an introvert.

you have to be when you're female in this thing. And there are people when they leave the cult, it may take 10 years, may take 15 years, but they actually shift an entire personality profile.

Some of them may be introverts in the cult, and they may leave and they may become extroverted. And I myself, I think I shifted one personality type or not a full category, but I know other people who are their personality in the cult, they're not even the same person.

And as you can imagine, in a marriage, this creates problems in the marriage because the person that you married after you leave the cult now isn't the same personality, who is this person, right?

There's, there's this wide array of psychological problems that you go through, but you're right, whenever you experience the Bible studies and you experience people and you realize that everybody is human. We're all humans and we should all want to help each other, but we were trapped in this thing that told us, you can help our little group, but don't help that other person who's not in our group.

You realize that that's just so wrong. Oh yeah, absolutely. And you just start seeing how, you know, it's just the message in and of itself. It's not Christ like, really, I mean, if you really boil it down and, you know, how it, they're so exclusive and that, like, elite mentality and, I don't know, like at this point in my life, I'm like, it kind of bugs me, not gonna lie.

But one thing I just want to say is like, one thing that held me back for years of not sharing my story, I guess, is like the thought, well, the knowledge that some people won't believe you.

And like that really does hold the person back because that's, you know, that's not a cool feeling, like to be really transparent and vulnerable knowing that people are gonna discredit you. Like that's just not very, a very fun feeling, but once I realized that the people who are gonna discredit me and not believe me, it's because they can't, like they can't.

Otherwise, they have to face the music, I guess, with certain things, you know, that they are not ready to think about. So, that's my world. Right, but once you realize that, then you're just like, oh, okay, all right, that makes more sense than, because, you know, and I just, I don't share my story so that I can be like, oh, for me, or like, you know, get attention or something, because that's just the last thing I ever wanted.

I just, I don't know, I just want people not to feel alone in their journey. Right. You know, I, the website is shifting away from Brannum. I don't know if you have followed it or not, but we've researched Brannum until there's, there's literally nothing that can be said that would convince somebody to leave if they're in the cult. And ironically, my target audience isn't the cult, which is kind of funny when you think about it.

I was more just putting up this red flag. Hey, there's, there's sharks in this water. Do not swim. And what happened is whenever you mentioned something that's highly critical to the cult, within you get all of these cult drones that come and try to, try to cast, you know, doubt on your character or your information. And they, they try to block you. And so what happens is you've got this swarm of, of cult people who are attacking the, the facts as you present the facts. But at this point, the, the message itself is, it's like this flea that keeps jumping

on my back and I just keep flicking it. But we're heading towards, you know, re-examining the, the Christian identity themes, you know, you mentioned Serpent Seed. We're re-examining that. And I think we're starting 1915-ish and that, that should come out before this starts. And um, anyway, even though I did not target people who were in the cult, there are people like you who found the information. And it's, it's one of the, there's, there's no money in what I do. But there's a lot of, I don't know what the feeling is. It's, it's a lot of feeling of success

watching people who can find the information and get help. Um, if there was one thing that you could say to your former self while you was in the cult and give them some, your former self some encouragement, what would that be? Probably to not put your gut feelings on the shelf and do take everybody's word for things. And I mean, I know it's, I know they talk about having a personal relationship with the Lord when you're in the message. But like, for me anyway, that wasn't the case. I just had a cookie cutter relationship. And so, I don't know, just, yeah, like keep searching until,

searching until you know that you have it. Like when, when I was, like growing up, they would always say like, you have to know that you know that you know that you're going to go to heaven. And I'm sitting there thinking like, well, I don't know. Like, I, I mean, I really like that.

Should I have twain song I listened to yesterday? So, you know, I'm not sure if I'm going to have it like that kind of thing. It's like, that's just proof that you just, that, that you're not, it's not your own, it's not authentic to your, your own self. Yeah. I mean, in the end, it all boils down to this.

They had, they had lost focus and the things that they're focused on. missing on aren't really that important when it comes right down to it. They've lost focus of the bigger picture. So I'm very excited to have had you on the show and I know our listeners are going to really enjoy it.

I've enjoyed the conversation if you can't already tell. I feel like I've known you for years and this is actually the first time that we have spoken vocally and especially with the video where we can see each other.

So very good to meet you for the first time in video. We've chatted a few times before this, but I'm just glad that you came out and you found a happy place and you're doing very well for yourself and it gives encouragement to other people that they too can do well for themselves after leaving.

Well, thank you so much. Thank you for everything you do. Well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org.

For an overview of the historical research of William-Branum in the Healing Revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William-Branum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.