Our Stories - An Interview With Michael and Fay Prascsak

Hello and welcome to another episode. Of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Faye and Michael Prasek, former message believer and Christian, who now understands how weird this is to be a former message believer.

Faye, Michael, it's very good to have you. I was so excited when Faye contacted me and said that she wanted to be on here to tell her story, because I, from off to the sidelines, I have been watching the story.

It's a piece of it after it had unfolded, and then I'm now coming to understand the bigger story, and what you guys have been through, I can say, it was a very difficult time.

I can tell everyone who's listening that you guys have really been through it, and part of the reason I'm so excited to have you both on here is to see somebody who has gone through what you've gone through and came out so strong on the other side.

Thank you, appreciate that. We've definitely been through our fair share of trials, hardships, and we're in a good place. It's always an uphill climb, but we're in a good place. Michael, for you, I can't even imagine what it would be like having not grown up in this, and suddenly coming in contact with this whole world of weird. I don't know if you, I was a Superman fan, and I watched the show called Smallville, and there's a lady on there who just also happened to be in a cult, but she had this wall of weird in the show.

I feel like you're married into this wall of weird now that you see all of this. What's it like being married to somebody who was in this thing and you weren't? It was tough. You love the woman, and that's all that mattered to me. She was who she was, I am who I am, and I was willing to do most of anything.

Obviously, to just be with her, because we love each other, and I couldn't live without her. But the sudden introduction into it when it all really came to life was, what planet are we on now?

I tried to entertain it, you know, it gave it about five seconds worth of thought and the things that I heard just floored me and I just said it's not for me, you know, you do you? Okay, I'm not going to change you, I'm not going to change me, we're going to be together and, you know, we'll just, we'll get through this all those secretly, I was hoping maybe I can talk some sense into her lately, her eventually.

Yeah, I thought I was going to convert him. So we both had our agendas, we just, you know, we love each other and that's all it really matters. Yeah, when he first met me, he just accepted me for who I was. I came from, you know, born and raised in the message and I loved God. I wanted to know so much about the message.

And I was one of those women that I didn't want to just be often and, you know, just separated from the fellowship. I started digging in and like really reading the message and learning it and words out was backwards.

Everything I get my hands all listening to anything I could, because I just wanted to be a part. I wanted to know everything I didn't want to be ignorant and have someone tell me I wanted to be the person that knew and say, yeah, I'm right there with you.

So I understand what you're saying and I could follow a lot. So I do it very well too. My challenges came and I don't know if I'm allowed to say this John, but I came from a very abusive marriage.

We were trying to get away and it took a lot of effort. This is very sensitive, a very sensitive topic and I want to be very delicate to the people that I know. But, you know, I was even looking for a shelter to live. A lot of people try to steer me away from that because they said, if I'm in a shelter, then my kids are exposed to, you know, thieves and bedbugs and they just said that's not the environment. So, you know, I tried to turn to family.

They helped, but it was always pushing me back even though they didn't believe that they did to my marriage. And then, you know, I, there's so much that I can add to this that I'm just, I just want to be sensitive again to the people that are involved.

So I'll just kind of like leave that out. People are welcome to reach out to me. If you want to hear the whole story, I would definitely share. But ultimately, that is why I left my marriage. And in my mind, I believed that I would rather, because I met Michael shortly after I was trying to leave, right?

And he was, you know, it started off with just meeting and then eventually it became to where I was living with him. I'm cutting, I'm admitting all that. a lot out, but you know, just, he didn't really know a whole lot except for I wore dresses, didn't wear makeup, not a lot of cut my hair, and he just knew very, very minimal things about me, and he just, he accepted me for who I was, never tried to change me, never tried to put any pressure on me, it's very, very respectful, but in my mind I believed that if we got

married, because you know, I went through a divorce too, that I would be okay with going to hell as long as my children were safe, and that's what I look back on it, that's ridiculous.

To feel like you have to live alone for the rest of your life, or stay with your husband for the rest of your life, it was, felt like a prison sentence, and I didn't want to be in that place. So, to me, the reality was, I'll just be able to go to hell, I can live with this. It's so hard, I can't even imagine being a female in this, I've had, I've done several of these stories now, and as you know, I've been working with male and female in the support groups. A lot of women went through similar things where they were in either

an abusive relationship with their husband or, in some cases, they just weren't really a good fit for each other, but in the message, you're stuck, you make this decision, if you're female, you're stuck, and then depending on which flavor of the message you were in, some of the men could remarry, the women couldn't, and in other sects, you know, male and female, you could not. I can't even imagine what that was like, but in some cases, the people who are in the church will actually go after the children of the woman who has been, you

know, separated from the husband, did that happen to you? Yes. Some of my family members advised my two oldest daughters, which at the time they were adults, that because I was living in sin, which would mean in a relationship with my husband now, that it was, I was sitting against God, that it was, that I was living in sin, that they could not be a part of that, because they're adults, and I did get to talk to them very briefly, but they, you know, they maintain a wall towards me, because, you know, they were afraid, they were afraid of, and any influence, because, you know, they were advised

that I had a demon on me, right? I was possessed with spirits, and, you know, so they had to be really careful when they talked to me, and I think a lot of the things when we would communicate, they read, and help them to respond, because it didn't sound like my kids when they would respond back to me.

I have five children. And so that is also, it's very hard for a mother that has had no education and you're kind of raised, not kind of, you're raised to be barefoot in the kitchen and education was not encouraged, not for us, not for women.

So you know, when I tried to leave to go on my own, it was either a shelter. I looked for weeks and weeks for battered women alternatives just to find somewhere to live with my kids.

I was trying to live on my own because I wanted to do the right thing. And then that's when I met Michael and that my story kind of evolved from there too. But yeah, it was, it was hard because they were also advised that it was best for them to stay with their dad.

And at the time, you can, John, you feel free to take this out if you don't feel that this is necessary to fit the story, but at the time, they were, they were neglected.

John, they were neglected, it was, it was, it was global. That must have been so difficult to watch your children be taken away from you like that and, you know, you're the mother. I know that in every religion, there are marital issues.

So we can't say that it's directly applied to the message, but I do know that from, at least from what the people have told me who have been in this and who have escaped.

As soon as the male or female decides to leave the cult or decides not to adhere to the cult's rules, a lot of times they're, they're severed as a parent. And then the children are no longer even emotionally connected to them.

And sometimes they're, you know, the well-being of the child is not really thought through in those cases. What happened after they severed that connection? Well, they were made to, they were convinced they were coerced, they were made to believe that no matter how much suffering they may have to endure, anything was better than to be involved with mom, to be involved in mom's situation to live with mom just because of our relationship, you know, whether that meant calling without food or, you know, poor conditions or no heat or, you know, neglect or whatever that meant, it was still the best route.

It was still in God's favor and how they put it to shun mom. And for the longest I've been a part of it here, she had almost no contact with them. I mean, they just, and if it was, it was very rigid, it was very shainy, like the kids were playing mom role this time and saying, you're bad and what you're doing is wrong.

And, you know, it's like a flip-flop of roles. and witnessing this, it was just, I couldn't believe it. I'm like, the children are playing this role and they're made to believe that they, this is what they should be doing and I just didn't understand that.

And I think the hard part for Michael is, I think I sent most of my days crying my eyes out and it was hard on him. To him up. That's really difficult watching that happened to your children.

I've had several people contact me who have gone through similar situations and I'll never forget one of the first ladies that contacted me. She was not quite of an age to be out on her own.

However, she also, you know, in the cult you don't have proper education sometimes and especially if you're female, you don't have a means to support yourself and according to her, she was kicked out of the house and living in the car and had been for, I think she told me it was over a year that she'd been living in the car because the parents would not let her in the house and she didn't have proper food, proper care, you know, it's awful what happens.

And again, you can't directly say that that's a message rule and the message promotes this thing but what I'm seeing is that it is somewhat common that this is happening and it's mind-boggling that a religion can take the natural instincts of a human to care for another human away from the people.

It just blows your mind. Yeah, for sure. Well, on the brighter side though, I was able to convince them to come back with me on a trial basis. I had to go to Indiana to pick up her car because when I flown out, when we got married because we got married in Indiana.

We got her car there and I'll go back together in my truck so I flew back to the car and I stopped by Colorado on the way back into her family and for her daughters and I'm like, look, I can take care of your dogs, your cats, you guys, your mom misses you, just comes spend a couple of weeks and come hang out and I was able to convince them to actually get in the car and once you did that, then got it back home and they lived with us that are part of the next year

and really helped amend that relationship. It was always still, okay, we don't believe it. We're just gonna say we don't believe in what you're doing but we are family. So I think that was a testament to their,

they're important to family to them. How much they really did love their mother no matter what their intel being told. So in the end, that did work out. In fact, the oldest daughter still lives with us today.

So yeah, and it's been a, you know, it's had to work really hard and rebuilding. So I'm thankful. around you. You mentioned accepting the fact that you're going to hell. That's another common thing that I've heard from the females, which it blows your mind, right? And Christianity blows your mind. I asked her to marry me and she goes, all right, I'm going to choose you and just choose to go to hell. How? What's that doing for you? I remember saying that. Oh, why?

I have you about me. Well, we'll see. This was in the message. This was not possible for me. I was one of the blessed people that was under my grandfather's blessing from the prophet guy.

He told my grandfather that all of your children and all of your grandchildren will be saved. So I had this blanket statement of free salvation, right? It's like the monopoly you get out of jail free card, right? Exactly. But so they implanted this in your head that you're doomed to hell. You have no chance. But yet, I've mentioned there's some similarities in your story into the others. One of the other similarities, which is ironic to me, you like me knew the message.

You knew it inside and out. You studied it. And I have found another comment in my mind. It was exactly. It was God's word. It was salvation. Exactly. I did too. Even though I don't think a single person in it understands salvation, but that's another story for another day. But I found this common thread, right? The people who know it the most are the ones who usually escape because it's so riddled with internal contradictions that eventually, if you know it, you're going to find something that's just critically flawed with it. What was the eye-opening thing that you first

found as a flaw? This is where my story changes into a different direction. But for me, it was never about riddled with confusion. Yes, it is. However, that's not how we're taught. We're taught never in question what we believe. We're taught if we don't understand it. Just put it on the shelf or just like God will reveal it later. So you don't question it. And I didn't. It was very fearful for me to start questioning. I remember because I was married. I was given 30 days to leave my husband from family members that was advised from a certain individual that I shone out name. But

they gave me 30 days to leave my husband. And I was in desperation. I remember just crying a lot. And he was crying a lot. And I just, I never felt, because he said, you know, you have to trust.

God leads you to do. I never felt that God was telling me to leave him. Never, not once. Although I was pressured through scripture and through quotes, it was what and family just it was constant bombardment of we love you but this you need to be corrected and that was repeated like a lot. And then I think it was a few days after the 30 days because something happened and they wasn't able to turn me over to the devil, but it's still there. My son broke, isn't it?

That's where it gets as far as kind of downhill. My son, if anybody wants to look on the news, Joshua Southworth or if anyone wants to just look through pictures that I have posted in the past, they can very easily see that my son suffered and we have people from all around the world praying for him. But two weeks into it, we were, I was given an email from a family member on behalf of an individual and it basically said that I was to be shunned that my son's caused my son's accident that God, God was not with me anymore, that he had on his own

released me from the protection of the church. It came back to me from multiple people, from multiple sources that other churches was warned of me to stay away from me, to shun me. People that I knew and the community that I had loved stopped having anything to do with me, they still don't have anything to do with me. Well, to not pray for you or Joshua. Yeah, they do advise to not pray for Joshua and not pray for me because it was God's will and they likened my situation to

William Brannum's life story and the life story would be about his wife in the flood that because of William Brannum's disobedience that his wife got sick and died and then the baby died because of his disobedience. So that was put on to me and projected to me and I just remember it was hard enough being in the hospital in the ICU with my son fighting for his life. My son is C4, C5 quadruplegic. He four days in, he had lost the battle of being able to breathe on his own and he had to come on a ventilator. My world had turned upside down very, very quickly and then

to believe which I did at the time that my son's accident was my fault.

no words. You cannot explain that into words of the devastation and human being has to endure for that. And they told me that if I did not leave my husband, that my son will never, ever be healed. So this is the hard part. Even though my husband was the biggest support for me, I mean the biggest support for me. I told him, Michael, you have to leave. You cannot be in the hospital with me. You need to go so my son has a chance to live. And he broke down crying and he said, I'm not leaving you, babe. I'm not. He said, I will go sit in the parking lot. I will live in

the parking lot. If this gives you peace, but I am not leaving you. And my husband never left me not once. And I don't know if that's in a test of love. I don't know what it is. So I'm trying to keep my composure. So I apologize. But I also told him you need to get a bigger orderly if they want to meet me. So you all get me. I'm glad you did because I'm struggling to keep my composure.

This is this is a very difficult story. And I knew the story before we went in. I've, you know, like I said, I've watched this story as it was unfolding. And I can't even imagine. I mean, you look at the Bible, you look at Jesus with the woman at the well or any of these stories.

Jesus went to the people that needed the help, right? It wasn't that he was condemning. And this church pretends to preach Jesus. But whatever this thing is that they're calling Jesus, that's not the Jesus of the Bible. And to think that they're condemning the people who need them the most, the people that are the ones that they're condemning, I just have to say it angers me.

One of the things that we always talked about is what happened to going after the one lost. The story about the lost sheep. What happened to, what is it that? What's the story?

990, whatever it is. It's the story of the one you go after the lost. Yeah. If I am lost, why didn't they go after me? Why did they have to shun me during the worst time of my life?

There was a lot of people that did not know of the shunning and those are the ones that still remained praying for me. You know, I was I was thankful just for there's of anybody because I got to a point where I convinced myself that God did not hear my prayers. And even if I prayed, it would just go to the ceiling and fall down to the floor. In other words, there was there was nothing God heard.

And you can feel hopeless. Yeah, but the hospital chaplain came down to console council. That's I figured if I can't if you can't hear my prayers. get a chocolate in there, so you know, and then he tells the story to the chaplain. He's like, he was so angry. He was speechless and then he, yeah, he was, he's like, this is the upside over. He goes, yeah, he goes, these people are what they're doing to you as long. He goes, God, here's your prayers because that's what you thought. And I didn't believe it. I doesn't hear

your prayers. And they can't, they can't tell, you know, and I always, because I'm like, she's through this, turning over this and 30 days that. And I'm like, well, you think gods know they're going, hey, good, good catch, man, that one almost got binding, you know, goodness, I got you guys looking out for my best interests, right? And like, does that really make sense to you? I mean, come on. But you're so, you're so, what's the word cognitive distance? You're so lost in what you've been taught that reasoning is not there. So no matter how much, even the chaplain or he would

try to help me, all I heard and all I've seen was what I was taught to believe. Well, you'd couple it with the emotional trauma, what was going on. And desperation, yeah. You just feel like, you just, you do what you need to do. And what you know, and that's what I turn to. And so moving forward about half a year, we went through a lot, John, I won't even go into all that. But we went, we went through a lot. But Joshua was weaned from the ventilator, which is a miracle.

I had to live separate from my family because they had to ambulance fly Joshua to the University P-Tall. So I, he was in ICU for like, what, 33, 34, some days. And then I was in Reno apart from my family in the hospital. I never left his side, not once, three months, my daughter and I would take turns rotating shifts to take care of Josh. We never left the room. I literally pretty much starved staff because I would not leave his room at all. He was too sick. And then I lived in additional six months once he was discharged at an apartment with Joshua and another one of my

kids to help me with Josh because we would rotate taking care of him. And so I lived apart from my family for almost eight months. That was all for therapy for him too. Yeah, he was going to be eating. Yeah, three months of acute inpatient care. And in those six months of outpatient care. So that's why they, they came out to, uh, to Utah and then, um, I would come out and visit everybody. Every two weeks. Much like good, you know, in between work, bring the kids out for visit, give her a break from the hospital. Forth or the lead because she was like, I'm not going,

so it's like a great month of wild. Yeah, I just claw marks on the floor as I drug her out of the hospital room, the other six hours and rest. But well, yeah, not to make light of it, but I try to search that keyword. The key does. It helps me. I think it's our, I know it's her coping.

I'm glad you are because, like I said, I'm struggling to keep my composure. Again, there are so many similarities between you and all of, I'm sure you're aware of this. You've been in the support groups, all of the other people. Whenever you get cut off, nobody comes to help you. Nobody. And it doesn't matter if you were a saint and you decided to leave the cult or if you're the lowest center and you decided to leave the cult, they treat them equally the same. We're not going to help you. I'll never forget when I got cut off, I got

cut off for asking a question and I understand they have to suppress the question. They have to stop other people from learning of the question. But my wife wasn't asking the questions. They cut her off with me because she was married to me. And then nobody comes after us to not a single time, like none of the family, none of the friends to say, to plead with us and beg to come back to Jesus, to their Jesus, I should say, not to the Jesus, but the message Jesus, right? Nobody comes to plead with you. And then, like you said, to, you know, on top

of this, all of the things you're going through that had to have been very, very difficult. How did you, how were you able to overcome the trauma from all of that? Moving forward, yes, it's still, it's still tormented me. I still believe that I had to leave my husband. But he made it better being there. So I had just made peace with the fact that this is what I need instead of what I was told.

By time, we were able to be together as a family. And we would take, we always prayed at night with Joshua and as a family. And Joshua would ask me, hey, mom, why don't you pray tonight? And I said, I can't. And he's like, mom, I don't believe what they are saying to you. And I said, no, that's what really, it's, that's what woke me up was, it's, that's where started is I was like, why would my son, who's probably the biggest Christian I've ever met in all my life, he is just the kind of soul you'll ever meet. I mean, this, this kid would give you the

shirt off his back. He is just that sweet and that kind hearted. It's just, it's just genuine. It's genuine love. It's not even a religious love. It's just genuine. And I was just like, my son, who's went through hell and back, even died and came back.

It's telling me he doesn't believe that God doesn't hear my prayer in it. It messes with me. And I just remember I would cry all the time thinking God did not love me. And I would go into Walmart or whatever grocery store. And I would get a random call from somebody and they'd say, if they, God just put you on my heart to let you know he loves you. And I would just song. I would.

It's sob and sob and like, God loves me. And I didn't believe it, John. I still didn't believe it. And this would happen a lot where people would just call me and say, God put you on my heart.

And I was told that, and they would tell me, I was told to show you, but I can't get rid of this burden. And he told me to tell you he loves you. And so that was started me with my search.

And I had a friend that, because of Joshua's situation, and what the church said to them, sorry, I always said, she started to do her own investigation and that led her to some of the podcasts from Rod Berger, say, right?

Berger. So sorry, Rod. Close enough. I'm so sorry. But yeah, she just said, you know, I will love you. She came to peace with her own recognition of what the message meant to her and how it was not.

Obviously that for her story. For me, she just said, I will love you no matter what. I am here for you. You just, if you feel like you can listen to these, it might help you to identify it as some of the suffering you're feeling, because there's a lot of people with their testimonies that share very similar things that you're going through.

And at the time, I put it off for probably six months, maybe. And then I finally sat down and listened to it. And I just, I had fear. I had so much fear just to listen to the podcast.

Why? That is so ridiculous, if you think about it now. But I had fear. And I was scared, because you can't, you know, their possessive spirits and don't, oh, that's just nothing, but the devil.

When I started listening to the podcast, I didn't feel the spirit of the devil. I felt love and peace for the first time. And as Ra is explaining his journey, which was to prove the message, right?

He came across that crossroad where you have your cognitive distance, it takes in. It's like, if I say that this is right or I say this is wrong, and then you start to rationalize like, why would it would do to you?

But I was already in a bad place anyway. I had already been shunned anyway. So I was like, why am I fearing this? And then Rod brought in a scripture, and you could probably read it, John, it's a Deuteronomy, what is it, 22, it's where it says do not fear.

If a prophet says something that's not in my name, do not fear, it is not I. That right there, I had to repeat that in my head. Over and over and over and over.

Do. not you. It is not I. And that was what helped me to push through that block. And it's a block. It really is. And they used the fear. People ask, why don't you leave the call? If you didn't, if you weren't happy in the court, why didn't you leave? And people like you and me, we were happy in it. That's the irony of all of this. But then once you're happy, it's like the happiness of a child who's whistling as they go through the graveyard. That's the happiness that this thing brings, right? But then they hold you with that same fear of the demons coming out of that

graveyard. So you're this timid, scared little kid. And you call that happiness. It's like the like the fake Jesus they have. They also have this weird fake happiness that I've learned. And once you leave, you start to experience what true happiness is. And it's just night and day difference. Yeah, for me, I was kind of afraid to really start seeing the truth. And the truth would be the reality of the lies that we were told. That was hard. And I think, okay, so she's not listening to this right now. My pride to tell him I was wrong. That was a big one. Because I knew I had to say

something to him and say, guess what? And I did not want to hear. I knew it. I did not want to hear this. I was jealous of her. You know, everything that I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't say that, no, no, no, then just come back with me. Well, she didn't say a lot of everything you said was right.

This is what I found out. I'm like, that's everything I was saying. But I was saying, that's okay. Well, once you got it one way or another, I don't need credit. I'm still working on that.

Everything my wife says is right. And if it's not right, it's still right.

You can be right or you can be happy, right? Is that how that works? No, I'm pretty sure it's not said. Yeah, but it was amazing watching the transformation, you know, just from that first, like she said, I want to crack the book open a little bit. Look what I, you know, to, I mean, I talked you on the phone. What are you doing? Watch the podcast. That was a lot of work. I come home all the time.

Well, you know, watch the podcast. Okay. And I lay down watching with her. I got to learn a lot too. You know, a lot of the research behind everything and kind of some of the reasons why they were and it actually helped me to have a better understanding of why she was, how she was, and how this is affecting. But her core system of beliefs had just been shattered, you know. I felt like a child waiting out. She was literally just realizing, you know, what life is slowly becoming. Again, it's not what she's used to, what she grew up with or what she's...

had lived and that was both challenging emotional and heartbreaking and also fulfilling to watch her blossom and develop and to realize that all this stuff that she's been feeling all this negativity is just out of the fear of what she was used to and not reality. I mourned like a death for four months and I cried for like four months realizing how I was lied to my whole life.

Was there a lot of good? Yeah, I had a lot of good in my life. I had bad due but it's the fact that you believed from your core that this is real and it's not. I think that was just as devastating as my family not being there for me. I think in their minds and their hearts they believed that they could be there for me all that they could, all that they were allowed to but they didn't even come out and see Joshua and I for five years. Wow. But it was because my daughter had her baby

and you know it legitimized the reason to come out. So Michael we've got your face on the camera so we can see your expression firsthand and I'm curious did she tell you you're learning about this message thing new right? Did she tell you that the guy had a magical sword? I don't think I've ever told him. I didn't tell him because how did you make sense of that? I got to hear this.

So first time for the world we get to see Mike's expression whenever we tell him that William Branham had a magical sword and I'll let you tell him. Sorry. I was being turned over to the devil when we were about a year before we got married. This is the first time they attempted and we had a it's actually the day of your divorce. The day of my divorce is the first time I get to see my children my two daughters. I had mixed feelings of going to see them because they had to be under supervision at my family members' house and I told them I'm like, here's what's going to happen

and it's it can go one way or the other and I told him he need to stay out in the car because I said they will not welcome you and he's like no problem and sure enough it was exactly what I prepared and for and I think that was the wake up call what I was really in. He had no idea day. My family came out and got me out of the car so you're just as much involved. Get on in here.

He had no idea. Like he I kept trying thinking I was converting my husband or at the time my boyfriend but thinking I was converting him I would tell him oh there's so much love and yeah that's not what he was introduced to. Not at all. I kept quiet and I kept quiet on the couch and I can just remember my fingernails digging into my And I was just like, the more it went on, the more it got.

When we got back to the hotel, I should have been in. There was marks on my nails where they dug into my skin and almost started bleeding. I was so upset with the way you were treating or what they were saying.

And they asked me, how do you play it and why are you? And I'm like, well, I'm help, I love her. And I'm taking care of the kids too. I'm giving them an education.

And they're like, they don't need education. They just need the love of God. And that's the, we'd rather than do that than get any kind of schooling. Like, I didn't understand that. Because I was called like, why can't you get both?

You know, I grew up with both. I mean, I went to a church of God and I went to high school and, you know, I went to school and I was waiting with college and...

That was one thing that he told me, is I wasn't even allowed to talk to him because he wasn't even, they called him a Christian. He's not even a Christian. He's like, I'm not a Christian.

So what they met was he's not a message. Right. And didn't that make you just want to join? So yeah, yes. It has a good, recreating poster, you know. It's really unbelievable. It's like, they twist the salvation so much that they've taken it completely away from what Jesus did on the cross and the Bible, right?

It's salvation only comes if you accept the message. And then there's this weird thing where if you were part of the message and you accepted this fake salvation with this fake Jesus, if you ever leave that, then the God is not strong enough to bring you back.

Like you mentioned, the 90 and nine passage. And I grew up with those songs. We actually sang it in message churches. There were 90 and nine, but he left the fold to find the one little lost lamb.

That's the one I was trying to talk to here. Exactly. I knew it was. I knew it was. Yeah, exactly. They will sing the song, but then actions speak louder than words, right? When it comes to reality, when they have the chance to go after the one lost sheep, well, William Brannum said the story himself, you break the sheep's leg so it doesn't leave the fold so you don't have to go after it.

That was his idea of salvation. I'm looking at Michael's face. That was an actual doctrine in this thing. You break the sheep's leg. I think for Michael, the biggest one, because again, as we've been trying to share, I was trying to convert him, he was trying to convert me, at least helped me to come out.

If nothing else, he would try to change me, though. I really need that to come across. He never tried to change me. They convert as strong word. I don't know what to do, which he wanted to do, but I also wanted you to find some kind of reason within it all to keep it all in perspective, right?

But I think the hardcore note for him is when I had him listen to one of the messages and it was his life story and on the life story, Lily ran the saying, yeah, I'll let you tell it.

Well, he was. If I ride in my truck and it's a funny story before it, we get in and I turn the key on and here comes the heavy metal on my radio and she looks over at me and he goes, you're still listening to that?

And I don't know what to do with it. But I like this music, I'm sorry. I love the tune now guys, it's been like. I'm sorry, I know she gets embarrassed when I say that, but it's so funny, it's so cute, but it just plays into our dynamic and then, I'm like, okay, I'm sorry, I'll take it off.

Like, well, let's listen to this and she puts on the live story and I don't know, a few minutes into it, I hear, you know, a woman ain't worth a clean bullet to kill her with and I said, shut it off.

That's not funny, I've heard enough. That doesn't change me. I'm, you know, I believe, you know, women should have this as much as men and I'm not, that doesn't even play with me, you know, it doesn't resonate with me whatsoever, I don't understand it, but now I understand the dynamic of how the way I was treated.

A woman is respected and treated in this religion and I was like, nope, I'm out. Sorry, that was your four and a half minutes. I admitted more of my life than I ever cared to admit.

So, speaking of the heavy metal, the weak god of the message, the people who are in the message field that if they hear this, they're going to hell just for listening to it and I keep on my desk, I keep this doll, the kiss doll.

So, so that, this scares away message people. So I have no fear, I have this little kiss doll.

Well, I was like, well, what about Christian heavy metal? Same thing, it's got to be. I'm like, I don't get it. I mean, this is a good message. It reaches people on a level that they're willing to listen.

You know, kids, you know, I listen to some Christian heavy metal. I loved it, you know, I mean, it was great music, you know. But yeah, it was just, it was just, it was a hard new, hard new, hard new, hard new, hard new.

All right, baby, I'll respect you while you're in the car. So, I mean, we learned that our game is going to take us to each other, you know, so. But I didn't even realize I was so judgy.

I, I looked back at friends that they see that I'm out and then like, do you remember when you judged me? Oh, I'm like, oh, that happens.

It's really unbelievable because when I was in the message, I was like that too and I'm embarrassed. The people that I knew when I was in the message, I'm embarrassed to go around them because I was a judgy freak, judgmental freak.

But having studied the Bible after leaving and understanding, they twisted the context of so many things to turn them into like, there's this righteous indignation where they believe that if they can insult you, they're bringing their self higher into heaven.

And it makes no sense. All of the passages about judging are not to insult other people but to discern for yourself, to thank for yourself, to examine for yourself, judge, judge this thing, right?

Judge and make, make some sense of this thing because you may be going down the road. wrong path. It's that type of judgment. But instead, it's this let's insult you. If you're listening to something we don't allow as our rules, let's insult you because that's going to make you go to heaven, buddy.

So ridiculous now. I thought I was helping him. It's amazing how embark we've grown. That's why I say we're in a good place because I'm enjoying life for the first time. I like to tell them, I feel like I'm like it's this, I hate these were two-year-olds, but two-year-olds that's they they're getting to know. They're getting to know and explore things and I feel like after the first time I can look and see people for who they are instead of judging them for who they are. I love them. I love them for their differences and I love that.

I love that freedom. Yeah, another quick little funny story that really kind of says it all. She's going through all this and they're telling her she's backslid. This is later when I knew I was out.

So like I'll show them backslid. How come's the first tattoo that she got so long? I'm here soon. I'll show them backslid. I've often thought about getting a tattoo of a skull with a halo on my arm. So if you know anybody.

If you're ever this way, I could definitely give you your your skull with the halo tattoo. I'm a tattoo artist now as a matter of fact, we're in my studio as we speak in my tattoo studios.

I'll never forget I felt so little whenever we went to our first church after being in the message and they were teaching us how wrong it was to be so insulting and judge mental to others because like Mike has experienced Michael has experienced, I'm certain this is not how you convince people to join your religion, right? If you insult them to their face, they're not going to be convinced to go to join you, right?

And there was a person with tattoos who came into the church and you know how it was, right, Fay? You in the message, oh no, the body is the temple. Well, let's decorate it. That's how they felt, right? But we listen to the eye already looking at you trying not to you.

And so anyway, we heard the sermon about that, about, you know, the tattoos and how you should not judge people like this, but the people who are, everybody has something good on the inside. And if you can connect with that good, if they're not Christian, you tell them about the Jesus, the real Jesus, not the message Jesus. And then they can share God's love to the world too. And I felt so little at that moment because I realized that we based our whole religion on appearance. And when I'm talking about appearance, I'm not talking about just the Pentecostal lifestyle, the dress.

called for the women, we took it to the extent that we were one of the first stories I did. The guy had written a song about faces. We were these faces. And that's how it was.

We wore these faces. They were masks and that was our appearance of being righteous and our appearance of being good. And we were condemning genuinely good people and pushing them further away from God. And fortunately, we were pushing them away from the message God, which isn't the real one. I remember we would always put them in a box of like, oh, they're a good person, they go to church, but they're not message. You always had to identify that person as not being message. I don't know why we were raised that way, but it was just

something fact. You identified somebody with their message or not. It's a very us versus them mentality. It breaks my heart to see the people that are still at it. I find my, I found for a while, it took me a while in my journey to feel comfortable, to live my life for me, instead of trying to be scared. I would be afraid to wear pants and having a piercing and my mom seeing it or my dad seeing it, because I love them.

I respect my family, but I think one day it just hit me when I recognized that this was, can I say cult on? Absolutely. This was a cult, pure plain and simple. I would go into people's homes and I still love these people to this day. And they have picture of William random, you know, what they believe is the halo, which we debunk that.

And I just asked myself the simple question, am I living wrong or are they? And who is that real danger when you fall a man versus Jesus Christ? So I have to give myself that piece, that it was okay for me to live my life the way I feel I'm living my life best for God for myself. I can't live my life for someone else.

That's not being true to myself anymore. I know that my family likes to label me as being faceted or I don't have the Holy Ghost and that it just attakes revelation. That's a big one. That's a big one. Everything's about revelation.

But you know, when you think about Jesus Christ and how he died on the cross, he said it is finished and he gave us the Holy Ghost. So that is where I had to find my piece to live my life.

My family came out for the first time in five years and I remember this conversation with my husband, so I wear my jeans or two. by where something that would make them happen. He said, don't you dare change a thing.

You live your life the way you're used to living your life. And it went well. I mean, did it hurt him? I'm sure it did. But be authentic to yourself. Yeah. I'm of the opinion that it works both ways.

Well, they want you to wear the dresses when you're around them. Well, I think when you go to their house, they need to wear the pants. I have so much to say about that.

I will remain silent on this topic, because it's a sore spot for me.

But yes, I agree. We are very hospitable to the people who come to our house. If you want to wear dresses, if you want to, however you know you worship God, we accept you for who you are.

And that's our home. And it's our love to you. We don't tell you how you need to live. We don't tell you how you're supposed to dress. We don't tell you that you can't or cannot watch TV in our home.

Yeah. We'll see my family grew up with the Brandon family. And what everybody doesn't know is that the Brandon family all had TVs. And William, Brandon himself would take my grandparents and my aunts and uncles to the movie theaters.

And all while he's condemning these people for doing it, he's doing it himself and private. And again, it comes back to this thing of faces. It's all about, can I create the appearance of looking more holy than the rest of the people that I'm scorning and insulting because if I can give that appearance, then they'll think that I'm a better Christian.

Yeah. And that's really what it's about. It's just, it's all about sadly. I know one thing that was striking to me when we went to Indiana, we actually went into, they were, the kids were having them.

I don't know. At the gym, for the youth. You walk in and big, big, surely, Brandon. You need to be able to beat your kids. And I was like, hunting, front center, off to the side, footnote, I just like, shh.

I was like, that was one of my first realizations. Like, this thing is completely backwards. But, you know, I pissed the side note. But back to, I would like to chime in on what she has shown me.

And the way she has just developed and blossomed in there, who she really was supposed to be is just been, I couldn't have asked for more of my lifetime to be able to see that.

And she has attest to me to other people on how things can really be. I know what she has affected so many people's lives. I hear all the time, and people say, you know, I've been following you, watching your transformation, and you've just found, hey, you know, you made me believe that I could do the same thing.

And she's given strength and courage to a lot of people who are still living in that fear that they don't have to, that they can be them. that they can truly get away, that they can truly make a change in their lives that they want to.

They can do the research and figure it out for themselves. And that's what we always say, don't take my work for it. I went through my own, I've been hurt, went through my own soul searching, went through my own research, went through my own, having to change my core beliefs now based on what I now know to be true and what I now know to be false.

But the inspiration that she gives others is just, I thrive on that and I commend her for it and I love her for it. And that's one of the reasons why I knew I could never live without her is because I could see that in her message or no message.

She always had that in her heart. She cared about people and, you know, and then she was able to go through this and now she's helping other people. Yeah, I have people that reach out to me and I don't try to give them the answers.

I try to leave them to do their own research. I feel like that is very typical to their growth and what they need to decide. But I've had a lot of women reach out to me and ask me how I escaped.

And John, do you have any comments on this? This is hard for women. This is a, I mean, that is trapped with children and married and it's, it's their whole family, their whole community supports, you know, possibly the man or just the religion.

And so do you have any words? It is really hard. And that's one of the biggest things that is the battle for the women, right? Because they weren't given the tools to succeed in life.

They're plain and simple. That's for, if you're a female in this, you're not given the tools to succeed. My advice is always as soon as you're aware that you have to leave, make an exit strategy.

Don't immediately leave, don't put yourself into a place where you're going to be without food or shelter. Make a strategy and that strategy might be going to school to get an education or be, you know, get some job so that you can support yourself.

It's really hard, especially in this economy, it's really hard when you've not established yourself. But no matter how you do it, make an exit strategy, build a community of people around you, real people.

I know we have the support groups in Facebook and whatnot, but you need a real person, a real human who's with you, who can support you. There are great churches that offer support and help.

You can go explain your situation and unlike the fake Jesus message thing where they help only their cult kind, you'll find other churches that will help you whether you're a saint or a sinner or not even a Christian.

They want to show you the love of God and they'll give you some help. If you are in that situation. and try to establish yourself with people that can help you and people that can support you.

Yeah, unfortunately, I know when you turn to the ministers and our churches, they always told the woman, it was her job to live such a life to where it convicts and converts their husband, but that's not real.

That's not reality and that does not help somebody that's in a abusive situation. So thank you for that advice. I come across that a lot, but people that reach out to us. So Fay, you've been through so many things and it's amazing to watch how you've came through all of this and came out better on the other side.

If you could look back to your younger self in the message and give some advice to your younger self, what would you say to yourself? I think goodbye was to give some advice or to help somebody.

For me, once I stopped caring about the way people look at me and viewed me and what I thought that they thought about me, I finally felt happy, I finally felt free and that was the biggest thing for me is I stopped giving them power.

They don't have power over you anymore when you don't let it bother you, you don't care. You live through this experience of me now, I have me back. I don't need to worry that was at burden anymore.

It doesn't have power over me now. And I think that's what has truly given me my happiness. Excellent. Well, I'm so glad that you've both came through this and very good to talk to you.

I know that all of our listeners are going to really enjoy this and it will be encouraging to a lot of people. There are a lot of people who are on the edge of thinking about leaving the message, especially now that the current events.

It has caused a mass exodus to start forming and people need others to show that we can be successful after we leave. And especially with everything that you both have been through, you are one of the greatest success stories that I am aware of ever seeing.

It is amazing. As for you and what you've sacrificed to, your lifeline that you've given us, so we thank you. Well, thank you. If you've enjoyed the show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Branum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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