Our Stories: IHOP and Paul Cain - An Interview with Stephen Deere

Hello and welcome to another episode. Of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Branum.org, and today I have my very special guest, Stephen Deere, the son of Jack Deere.

Stephen, it's so good to have you on here. We have chatted a bit through email after we were connected, and all of the pieces are coming together for me in ways that it'll be a little bit of a surprise to you, I think, to even hear it on this podcast. We haven't yet spoken about it, but we have been getting so many requests to dig into the history of the creation of some of the big churches in the NAR, and the movement's leading up to it, and the linchpin to all of it appears to be Paul Kane. And so I have been contacted by numerous people

from the researchers working with me, to people who have escaped the new apostolic reformation, especially with the fall of what happened at IHOP and all of that. People are wanting to know more about Paul Kane and his connection to William Brannum. And I was mentioned to you right before this podcast, but your email sparked a memory for me, and I was able to dig up a lot of correspondence that I have between myself and Paul Kane. And anyway, all of this to say, in the upcoming weeks, the plan is we will start to produce some of the

research. I can't say everything that he told me in the conversations. There are some things I have to hold, but I'm going to start revealing some of the things that have been said, and other people are soon to be sharing more information about Paul Kane. But all of that is the leading up to our discussion today about your experience with your father, the new apostolic reformation, Paul Kane. You have a testimony in a lot of history that I think our listeners would be just fascinated to hear. Well, I hope I don't disappoint. What you're getting for me is not an expert

opinion or theological is I'm just sharing my experience and observations from being around Paul and observing Some of the things, some of the themes that have been on your podcast and have been present in the whole IHOP

Controversial or scandal Yeah, I'm not quite sure what to call it now. It's kind of I just call it a mess

So and I've never been to IHOP, you know I just got into I mean I was partially kind of got interested in this because of Paul Yeah, and and trying to Yeah, I just kind of like untangle

Would I grew up with and how much was through how much was Wasn't and it's a long long process. Yeah And you know that's the common thing everybody who has contacted me About this is said They want to know what was real and what was not because there were clearly things about this that were real But there was a whole lot of fiction mixed in with it and how do you correctly divide what's what's true and false among a Mass ball of deception. So Maybe it would be good if we just take a moment and have everybody, you know tell a little bit about yourself have everybody

Learn who is Stephen deer and who some of our listeners probably don't even know who jack deer is so Be good to you know give some information about your father, but yeah, just tell us a little bit about yourself So, you know, I grew up in a my pastures kid my my dad Kind of he was a seminary professor, but Dallas theologian seminary for I don't know 13 years something like that Specialized in ancient Semenical languages one time. I think you knew like it doesn't or something and Was a cessationist. I didn't believe that the gifts of the spirit. We're talking about like healing prophecy

tongues things like that You know, but those things had kind of ceased or faded away with the death of the last Apostle and Through a conversation with John white a British psychiatrist was well known British psychiatrist author and missionary he kind of Embarked on his new new new path and kind of like changes mine about the gifts of the spirit and and Came to believe that they were for today And right as that was happening, you know, he was fired from his job at the seminary Because of his association with one of the leading Charismatic figures at the time and John Wembre

um, they said you have to My so my recollection is that they said that you know, if you don't stop associating with Wembre Uh, we're gonna have to terminate you when I was tenured. And he said, I'm going to keep on being friends with Lumber. And so they terminated him. And then during that time, around that time, is when Paul Cain kind of entered our lives. And so a little bit about me, I grew up around a lot of these leaders that we're discussing now. Paul, or a joiner, Mike Bickel, Bob Jones, I don't know. And

you know, by the time I got to college, adulthood and stuff like that, I, I'm, it cares my church. It was something I wasn't super attracted to anymore. Yeah. And I, like, the churches I would go to, you know, and I moved around a lot. I was a reporter for about 20 years for different newspapers and stuff. And so, you know, I would attend different churches and stuff, but it was never, I was kind of removed from that, from that world, but was always getting reports about, you know, all these people who I knew, you know, whose kids

were at our house. And, you know, so, yeah, and then, you know, I'm a consultant, I do media relations, opposition research, things like that. And the IHOP thing happened. And it's like, I, you know, the first time I heard allegations, I was just like, I, it was kind of surprised, but then kind of wasn't, you know, especially after what happened with Paul, early 20 years, Paul Kane, early 20 years earlier. It's kind of funny. You being a minister's son, I wish that every minister's child who is in this movement and all the very splinter groups would just stand up and say, Hey, I walked away from this because, and then tell

the reasons why they walked away, because so many children who were, you know, their parents were leaders in this and the movements that created this, they saw things that nobody else saw. And it's really hard for them to believe because they know some of it is focus, focus. They, you know, you'd be around, you'd be around these big meetings. And then everybody's fascinated with what's happening. Well, then you get to hear the conversations afterwards. And, you know, the two don't always match. And so, ironically, I believed all of it hookline and sinker until I was age 37 and...

I walked away, I was smacking my head, it was like, you know, I heard all the conversations after the services and I knew, I knew people who are in the ministry who didn't believe any of it and yet they're some of them are holding pastoral positions and positions of rank at minimum and it's all because, you know, there's so much money flowing through it I think is the way I would describe the reason why they do what they do.

But you mentioned Paul Cain and his allegations of what happened and which lead led to his public confession and right before this podcast I pulled up some of my, started pulling up my notes on my conversations with Paul Cain that we had, I think it's 2014 if I remember correctly and it was kind of funny because when he called me, I knew who he was, I did not know the depth of the connections and at that time I had no idea that there was such a thing as the new Apostolic Reformation. I just knew that there was Paul Cain and

he was in bed with all these Charismatics and I had read about him first because he was one of William Brandham's proto-Jays and he openly mentioned that whenever William Brandham could not go into a country for to escape prosecution I guess is what the reason was but like such as German, he Paul Cain is the one that William Brandham would send in his place so he was more than a proto-Jay he was his proxy in some cases and so I knew who he was and I knew I had read his confession of his alcoholism and his sexual immorality

as he's talking to me, I had, you know, I'm pulling up my notes on my computers and as he's talking to me, I'm looking through his confession just to try to get my bearings of who this guy is and he started going into, he had read about some of the things that were said by leaders in the Brandham movement about his homosexuality and he blatantly denied it on the phone and I said, but I've got your testimony right here and I kind of threw him for a loop and he was a little disturbed. We also sent the same thing via email, he vehemently denied all of those accusations

which gets really interesting when you think about the scope of this and you know his influence on all these ministries. Yeah, I mean it's interesting that he would deny something that's so public but I mean I don't know it's not it's not surprising and be honest I didn't know what NAR meant before the IHOP thing. I hadn't even thought about it, it was on my radar as a but then I start there's a lot of overlap with NAR and people who are described It kind of seems to me like no one wants to really own that label.

You know, the things that you hear to kind of like define as as as NAR like these different offices and and the amount of control that goes with them. They seem they seem to be the characteristics you know are present but never really label like in a lot of cases and I'm thinking of life.

You just don't hear outside like Peter Wagner I you know in turn looking over this. You know it's like it's it's out in the open but never defined. Yeah well and it's hard to define.

I think that's the reason why it got that label because what else do you call this thing? It's a spider web of networks of different groups of which have varying agendas and of which some are really benign.

They're not some of them are just regular churches but they're in the same network. But then you've got the extreme versions of those churches and it's doctrine and you see the mega churches you know.

I think that's why they use that term because Wagner popularized the notion that we need this it was a church growth movement. We need all of this growth. We need these mega churches and God is in the mega church kind of thing right?

So what do you call this umbrella? And I think that's why he became you know he is the one that got the title. It was very much the same in the Brannum organizations. When I mentioned the white supremacy history of Brannumism and the ties to Christian identity well probably 80% of the churches just vehemently deny it because they're actually not a part of that.

They have no idea that that is the roots. They you know they're so far disconnected but see they're part of the same network and they have the same foundation and unless somebody is to open up the covers and look what's underneath you know underneath the foundation of this thing they have no idea.

So I think that's why it got branded as the NAR. I mean that's interesting with other aspect of some of these churches is that they in my view like from what I just my vantage point is that they tend to be pretty insular.

And so they may not be they're not prejudiced to having somebody kind of like look under the hood look under the hood or look outside themselves that much. And because of that I think that's another reason why you see a lot of weird things is because they're not being there's no accountability with other bodies they're allowed to kind of like just be this kind of like their own bias.

They're whenever it grows out of it grows out of it, I guess. I mean, yeah, that's what it seems like. Yeah, very much so. And not just that, the suppression of information, they, right, they try to, I have friends who are working on exposing some of the extreme doctrines of the NAR.

And when everyone is released of something horrific that an NAR leader has said, they will issue copyright strikes against fair use content to try to bring it off lines so that the public is unaware that they said these things.

It's the control of us. Well, I think in I have case, it's like the control of a story of a NAR, of a, of a, a long narrative. And that's drawn people there. And it's like if there's any part of this, you know, if anybody starts pulling on this thread on this history, there's almost like this ethos that, it's all going to come on down.

Yeah, that's what it, that's what it, it, it, it, it seems like.

But I'm curious, what did Paul call you? I'm kind of surprised by that.

Well, years ago, see, Paul Keane, as I mentioned, was William Brannem's protege, his proxy, he was a brand of my through him through. He was deeply involved in the latter rain movement. And when William Brannem's, what was his third, is either his third or his fourth campaign manager, who also happened to be homosexual, which is also ironic.

He began a worldwide series of tours in which, you know, William Brannem and Paul Keane and others were involved with. So Keane is deeply embedded in the, the Brannemism. Somebody sent me an actual laying on of hands, I guess, is what you call it.

Paul Keane laying his hands on Chris Reed. I want to say this was 2000. It was like two years before he died, one or two years before he died. And he is praying that people will understand who William Brannem truly was.

And essentially giving, giving, passing the torch to Chris Reed of what is it, Morningstar Daystar, to try to, to try to carry the torch of Brannemism. So he was a Brannemite through and through.

Well, back then, I had, I had reached the point in my research where I had discovered that not only was it tied to some very dirty things, such as the white supremacy, much of it was fraudulent.

And I too, for years, I did not know why he called me, but I have since learned that Paul Keane was, he got referred to by another person who, New him as allegedly as the fixture of all of these movements Paul can is the guy that would come in and do the cleanup should something get exposed and Apparently there's some large sums of money being exchanged. I won't get too deep into that, but Apparently he was calling to try to halt what I do and So we we first exchanged a few emails and he wanted to he wanted to call me immediately and talk to him and

He knew my grandfather. He had been to obviously he'd been to the church the my grandfather's church was the brain of tabernacle and

He he was very surprised that I was publishing the white supremacy information. He like denying the You know the sexual misconduct he also denied all the many ties to white supremacy yet, you know just like the his confessions of sexual immorality I also had up the timeline so I knew he was there at key events where Leaders of white supremacy were involved or William Brannum was speaking You know Christian identity doctrines very openly so he knew Through and through that this was tied to white supremacy, but he wanted to deny it and he was I don't know if you've been you've probably been around these people where they do this

But they try to subject you and mentally they tried to take control of your head I grew up in a world where this was done to people and I You know, I recognized it afterwards not while he was doing it, but I had this mental This mental thing where when somebody tried to do this to me and they tried to force me in a subjection I naturally knew how to get out of it because I watched people who were doing this sort of thing So as he's trying to manipulate me, I'm manipulating him in the opposite direction and that's whenever I I brought up the

Well, here's your confession Paul and just totally derailed his train of thought How did how did he respond to that when you brought that up that his confession about? Well, like in the email he vehemently denied it. He said it was untrue unfounded that people were trying to smear mud and I You know, I looked at it and I saw this is a written confession from him as I understand it I just looked at it Magazine, right? Yeah, charisma or something like this I'll try to pull it up for the video feed of this podcast, but you know this this came from him

So I knew he is the one that did it and I could have called him out on it, but I've learned you know two things number one if I'm talking to somebody who's a rank-and-file member They may be so manipulated and Under the mind control that they may not understand that they believe two things at the same time that are opposing thought That's very frequent in these movements now Paul can is a different category because he is one of the minute, one of the predators.

So I knew he wasn't that, but at the same time, I knew if I were to call him out, I might shut him up and I wanted to hear more of his information. And so I'm glad that I did, because this series of conversation continued for quite a few more times.

Yeah, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that one just over here, because after his exposure in light 2004,

I mean, I would get Facebook requests from him every once in a while and stuff like that, but always rejected him. I mean, another relative also got Facebook requests. Occasionally, every three years or so, he would reach out to my dad and try to reconcile.

But it was like, he would never, there were some things that he did that he just would never, I went up to him, or never fully, he never fully acknowledged the extent of what he did.

And I don't care. I mean, frankly, you know, my, there's a lot of polarization in these days. You see, and then I, I think,

but one thing that seems to cross, or it has a, and a church can cross political divide as a sexual, clergy sexual abuse. And, you know, it's like that one time you have like people who are, you know, have really radically different views from another kind of working alongside them.

Yeah, there is a lot of that. And we, I haven't put all the research together. I don't want to call it out and get it incorrect, but we do have enough pieces of the puzzle that makes it paint a picture that looks very much like there were multiple aspects to the misconduct.

When you take into consideration, I mentioned before that William Brenham's campaign manager who was homosexual, Paul Kane specifically mentioned reading a testimony by Lee Vale, who was William Brenham's publicist, where Vale was naming the homosexual as attracted to William Brenham's ministry.

And surprising to find out, not only was his campaign manager homosexual, the two men who traveled with him everywhere, recording his sermons, literally William Brenham scribes were two homosexual men. And so you've got this party of homosexual men.

They went into Germany, as I mentioned, and Paul Kane was there. Well, the security detail that was with him in Germany was a... a pedophile who almost got arrested in Germany and he and his community, his cult following, who were in the laterane movement.

They were beholden to William Brannum. They moved into Chile and set up a torture compound where they were sexually molesting children and grooming children to be sexually molested boys and in so much that they set up a hospital in Chile and they would screen children who were, you know, it was like a charitable organization, you know, if you're too poor, come to our hospital, we'll give your child free or very inexpensive care.

Well then children were disappearing from the hospital and they were being taken into the colony as subjects for child molestation charges. Now I can't directly tie that to Paul Cain, that's just a piece of the puzzle, but I do have witnesses who tell me that Cain was involved in multiple similar things and the reason the allegation surfaced is because there were a number of allegations, not just one.

So when we add all these pieces together, this paints the picture that is very, very bad, which would, again, lead to why he would want to contact me because as soon as I got to the bottom all of this, then his whole world comes grumbling down, right?

So I think that's why he contacted me. What I observed of him and stuff like that, just so we hadn't done that and kind of like how just like, you know, something I learned from the whole thing, you know, first I remember clear, like, I don't, I don't have a problem with homosexuality, I'm, you know, I just, what I have a problem with is people taking somebody's faith and using it to manipulate them into, into, into sexual acts, to take it away, they're, they're, they're all controlled and that's what Paul did, to, to, to, or, you know, exploiting somebody,

you know, exploiting a child, the innocent, somebody who's, you know, that in, in, if Paul had done that to, to, to, to women, I would have as much of an issue with it and not lying and stuff like that, that is, that is where it, you know, yeah, so it's, you know, I met, as I said, you know, but as soon as my dad was coming into the guestless spirit, Mike Beck will introduce him to, to Paul Kane.

I think John had, John Bloomberg had to kind of like let him know about Mike and he met Mike and Mike had told him, hey, one of the awesome, you know, greatest prophets in the nation is right there, actually, in Dallas. And he came to our house for dinner. Like, just we started having dinners with him in our house in Texas. And I would have been maybe 11, 10 or 11 at the time.

And so Paul was kind of a fixture of our lives. My parents gave him their house or kind of gave it to him, I guess, whenever they moved from Texas to California to be part of the vineyard.

He was kind of like viewed as a person whose ward was synonymous with God. And I think that

the issue, Paul was able to create such an incredible persona of himself. It was very easy to equate his words with the words of God. He was like a shortcut to God. And I think when a thing or a person becomes a shortcut to God, that is when you're looking to them, it's diverting your,

you know, it's diverting your attention our way from, you know, away from what's true. And so, you know, if you start thinking like, the warning sign is like, if you start thinking like, how would so and so view this? Or how would defend is what's dominating your actions and your thoughts and stuff? Or before I do this, I need to make sure that this prophet has prayed about it.

And given the okay, you know, I think that's a major warning sign. And that's kind of like, but that's how we, you know, I grew up. And, yeah, and Paul was very, you know, he was a disaster on stage. And then around, yeah, disaster on stage, but, you know, it could seem to have a prophetic gifting. I can, last I have experienced like supernatural events and just instances where I'm just like, I can't explain this and stuff like that. Personally, I've been racking my brain and I can't remember that with Paul. Growing up, I mean, I was

old different things like my dad will talk about stories and you know where and he's going through some health age-related health issues right now that has some surgeries and stuff like that and it's kind of like a little bit out at the last few months about at a public view or you know where else he would be more vocal about some of these things he it's how we grew up and then and you know people different people tell some amazing stories like my dad would tell stories about how Paul could read his thoughts at that time like at times in a ways that he couldn't explain like he would be on it talks about

being on the front row of like a staff meeting or some meeting at the vineyard and Paul is talking to the audience and like scanning them and all of a sudden he stops and he says Jack do you what are you doing thinking about your hunting dog dog skipper and my dad when he moved to California you know he used to love to dwell on and we had hunting dogs and and he said when Paul said that in his mind he he's might have drifted back to Texas and he was reaching through this chain like fence to pet this pointer English pointer then he had and he said he didn't know how

Paul had anyway of knowing that and there's like I mean that's kind of like one example and and stuff but looking back what Paul did created the aura of exclusivity around him it was like you know being close to him he did a number of things that were manipulative and would not but there and you know stories there's a lot of stories and I knew a woman that who was devastated when she learned what happened of all but we saw you know would accompany him to a lot of different meetings uh who saw the pulp you know came and turned the same same style and prayed for and got her out

and ironically uh the the woman's husband hated Paul and in anybody say hey you know one day you're gonna understand why I feel this way about one day you'll know and when everything transpired back in 2004 and came clear and you know one of the kind of more interesting aspects of this is that there's this mythology about Paul that seemed to kind of grow up as a lambda grow and and Kansas City that I just had no clue uh you know uh Um, so that he would, you know, I, the CIA thing kind of throws me for a loop.

I'm not sure that he was actually ever working for the CIA. I mean, I just haven't seen evidence. And the reason I say that is because Paul would, I would have, I think I would have known about it if he was working for the CIA.

He just could not keep stuff like that under his hat unless it was damaging. I don't know that I would necessarily call it the CIA, but he was working with CIA operatives. And the, the things that are public that you can look at.

So there is this group. You can watch the Netflix documentary called The Family. It's the, um, you know, you've seen the documentary where they're influencing senators and congressmen, et cetera. Well, William Brannum's and Paul Keynes campaign manager during those revivals was a director on the board of that institution that was establishing those things.

And they were establishing those in a network globally. It wasn't just in Washington, DC. So when you read about the, the national prayer breakfast and all of the chaos that ensues because the evangelicals are persuading politics, et cetera.

And you, you find this big war between liberals and evangelical Republicans. Well, picture that globally because it's not just in the United States that this is happening. So Paul Keynes was involved with all of that.

And this guy was, this guy likely was CIA. I don't know. There's no way to prove that. But his name was frery, William T. frery Von Blumberg, the adopted, the adopted cousin of, uh, Hitler, Adolf Hitler's Minister of Defense, Werner von Blumberg.

So this guy had a presence in Germany. And that's why Paul Keynes got involved with Germany. And then they set up the colony that I mentioned. Well, that colony was also tied to the Nixon, uh, previous prior to the Nixon administration, but Nixon was also involved in it as president and vice president.

Nixon gave these guys charge at the national prayer breakfast to use their religious influence to sway the mindset against communism and help create, help stir up the communist scare. So there's all these government ties and then beyond that, there's some information I can't yet release, but hopefully soon I'll be able to.

But it appears that he was at minimum working with operatives who were working in MK Ultra, potentially, um, he was either that or a division of the, the government that existed after that. So I wouldn't say directly CIA, but I can assure you that they were likely CIA operatives in those meetings because when you think of national prayer breakfast globally, it would be stupidity.

If the United States didn't put CIA ops in those prayer breakfast around the world. It's a golden opportunity, why would you not do it? But anyway, you mentioned, I'm going to circle back to one thing you said, because I feel this is important to stress, you're talking about homosexuality.

And your views, my views on homosexuality have also changed significantly. I keep this podcast historical, and I try not to get into theology. I'm not a preacher. I let people decide for themselves. And what's funny about this is, within Americanized religion, it's such a divisive issue.

You have people who are supportive of the gay and lesbians, and you have people who aren't. I just walked the middle of the line. I say, ask your pastor about it. But that's the position I take.

But I, too, like you, I want to, the reason I'm bringing this up, I, too, feel the same way. If Paul Cain were doing the same thing against women, it would be just as equally bad.

And now we see the allegations against Mike Bickle, which, in my opinion, are just as bad as what Paul Cain did, maybe even worse, I don't know. But you have all of this mess, and there's this pattern of this mess.

So it's not just one person. And as I understand it, Paul Cain was the fixer, and he was the one who, he knew which people were involved in these things. And he knew how to push their buttons if they stood stepped out of line.

Sometimes it was threats with exposing them. Sometimes it was money, et cetera. And you try to buy his way out of things. But you have some correspondence with between your dad and Paul that is very interesting when you consider the fixer aspect of everything.

I would get the, my dad would forward these things to him every once in a while. So let me just wrap up kind of like what happens. Things will make a little bit more sense.

So Paul is like this revered figure. And like, occasionally, I think after like mid-'90s, I'm still a round poll all the time. I, when I, even when I was in college at the University of Missouri, he was in Kansas City.

If I needed to go park my car somewhere, or I would call him and go to his house, his duplex right there, off of a behind-eye hub, where it became a hub.

And so mid-2000s, I think his drinking just got out of control, like he was in the hospital, and it was just like, I'd do bizarre things that, you know, I mean, some of the stuff I can say, but some of it's other people's stories.

So I think fish and people are going to be coming out, some, you know, certain to talk on some of this stuff. But yeah, it was just, he was, I mean, some of the stories, just kind of like getting drunk and wandering through the streets and knowing where he was, you know, about to have a hard attack and some instances, you know, and so they were, I think, you know, my dad and Rick, and I think, to some extent, Mike, they were all trying to, you know, from what I know, from what I was told

at the time, you know, and you kind of always have to say that when you're dealing with situations, because they were trying to figure out like how to get him out of the, you know, deal with alcoholism. And during that, that process, it finally surfaced that in a way that Paul couldn't deny that he had been abusing some, you know, and he, that he was a sexual predator and, and, you know, and he was kind of given a choice.

Like, you know, you stay here, you're not, I think there were in North Carolina at the time, this competition took place. And it was like, if you leave here, we're going public about everything. And, you know, I think, from what I was told, things got really vicious during some of those conversations. And it was, you know, Mike, Rick, and my dad and Paul, and one of the things that served this was that and Paul recorded everybody that he talked to. And use that against them. I mean, it's writing them in the release of those, of tapes. And, you

know, there was, I don't know that it's totally fair to, I'm comfortable talking about my own family stuff. But, you know, when my mom had a drink and problem at the time, and I think they had talked to Paul about a lot of his stuff about her issues.

So he was threatening my dad with that. So I think you'll see some hints of that. And I was in those emails to release that. And my dad was like, you know what? Go ahead. Go ahead. And he had something he threatened to Rick with. Not any of something he threatened Mike with. And, and from what I was told, Mike was his, what he had on him was his affairs with went, and I was like, oh, but everybody was like, you know, Rick was like, I don't care he says, but you know, when he has on me, he supposedly isn't even true. I don't care,

you know, released all day long. And then Mike said something, and said something similar to say, but yeah, and yeah, it wasn't just, and it really wasn't just that, you know, them that, then he recorded, he was recording people at the time, and he was doing it. And he had different explanations for him. He, and if you think about who all Paul talked to,

there's some interesting implications about recording a lot of your phone conversation. Yeah, when he got it honest, right? In the brand, I'm called every minister has all of the dirt on the other ministers. And if one steps out of line, they're the threats to be exposed.

It's like a Christian mob, Christian mafia. You know, if you step out of line, we're going to make you and your family pay. And you're going to, you're going to get a horse's head on your bed, like they did in the Godfather. It's, it's just so corrupt, you know. And as I understand it, that's part of what led to, I'd read prior to our conversations via email. I'd read the, the chapter that was missing from, from the book that your dad was going to put in there.

Can you talk a little bit about that, you know, what, why he held it back, what, what was in the chapter? I put the, the, the draft chapter on my sub-stack page, just because there was a press for it, you know. And so that chapter was kind of like, it was more of an unvarnished

view of Paul where he was, and he was talking about his, it was a lot more, it was very revealing. And, and he wasn't pulling any punches in that, in that chapter. And that chapter was not, not given to him directly, given to Mike directly, but somebody else, you know, who was a reader of the, this was a revision to one of his, his books. I gave it to Mike, and then Mike emailed him twice about it. And the, and I read both, well, no, I, I may have had both emails, but I think I only

glanced at the second one at the time, and it was right before his book was going to be published. And Mike was, it was like just making such a hard, you know, for him to, take that chapter out of his book.

And at the time, because this makes you seem better than using all kinds of different reasons. And I'm not going to recommend your books anymore if you do this, and it was very threatening, but then he would say, oh, I'm not, I would never threaten you.

There's all these, you start looking at how these guys talk and there's all these contradictions. It's like, bam, I'm not showing a face. I would never spike it. It's, they think that their words negate their actions.

And maybe sometimes they do, but that's a pattern during the opposite of what you say, right in front of somebody. Very much like the mafia, right? This was a Christian mob. I wouldn't call it Christian, I guess.

Yeah, Christian in quotes. It was a quote, Christian quote mob. Yeah, we're having a lot of fun. And I want to screw up anybody's label, or their name.

I had never read the completed version of that chapter. I just said, hey, just my advice was rework the chapter. You can still keep everything in there you want. Just reframe the beginning, and then no one gets at your bidder if you do it like this.

And I just kind of gave them, and you kind of followed it. And then that's what ran up in the book, but it wasn't, he did pull back a lot more. Then I realized, and I was rebuilding a house that I was a general cash actor on my house at the time, and I couldn't, I wasn't paying real close attention.

Until this happened, and I just looked at it, and I was like, man, this is, this is, what it reminded me, I read the email. And again, because I just did a search through my email, and it was pulling up a lot of different things.

And I was like, oh, this is sound so similar to what was sent to an email that has been published that was sent to Jane Doe's husband by Mike Bickle. And so like the speech patterns are the same, the contradictions, it's not as, you know, I don't know, frenetic, or what, you know, it's not as fast or high for some of the communication that Mike had, Jane Doe's husband, but the same characteristics are there.

The same characteristics are there. And so, you know, but kind of lead up to the publishing on the second chapter is, there was a statement that, my dad like, okay, like given his name to, it was issued by a group of charismatic leaders.

And we had talked about him doing a statement before that and there were just some issues with it because you know, when someone's been your friend for 20, 30 years, you know, and then it turns out they're not who they say they are, either you kind of want to talk to them before, before, you know, you just haul off it.

There had been a, at this point, there had been enough people that had been rejected, the mic had rejected from contacting him and it was apparent that, you know, people had already gone to Mike and asked him to repent

and yeah, and so, I think enough time had gone by and enough of allegations that have been substantiated that that obligation kind of like cease to exist. And so, he came out with another statement just to clarify a few things and then there were a lot of requests to publish that, that unplugged chapter, I'm sure.

So that's kind of how everything came about. What do you know about, you know, there's several claims where he's working with the elite in Washington and other countries. What do you know about that?

I know that he had a meeting with Herbert Walker Bush that meeting was not real productive. I think Paul didn't, was not a fan of the Bushes and even kind of like disparaged them during that, after that meeting.

And so Bush wanted to know where Noriega was. It was when they were looking for Noriega. And I don't know the Paul was, it sounds like, what I, when I gathered at Paul didn't, was not helpful with giving him the word amounts of Noriega.

He met with Clinton twice that I remember. And I, my, in my ever sister was present for one of them.

That was made, not in the room, but she was in DC with some of the people who had set up the meeting. We talked about this recently, like she was, you know, got a personal tour of the White House and stuff.

Well, you know, while this meeting was like happening or and she remembers them, you know, kind of like all reconvening and it was like a horrible, it was a, it was a, abysmal failure.

Like I have, I can't recall any of these meanings ever having any real effect. It was other than to prop a Paul's image as this incredible profit. And he kept all these pictures of the meanings.

He kept them all in a leather bound book that was really prominently displayed in his house. Or they kept it with him at times. So these were like, there was like a point of like credibility for them and stuff.

But yeah, the nothing came of the meanings. And then you hear like these stuff that was coming out of IHOP, like Saddam was like requesting the late Paul, you know, that was like, you know, after he'd been captured.

But, you know, my dad and Mike said, no, he can't go. He's, you know, copper. You know, never happened. It's a total bullshit. Yeah, I told you. I mean, there's a lot of real.

Yeah, and so I don't. There's something going on there with Kansas City and Paul Kane. And then, you know, Paul kept his house there until he died. Yeah. So for the people who were in Kansas City and all of this is happening, and you've been in communication with some of them, I'm certain people are escaping and they're realizing this thing was not what it seemed.

What advice would you have for those people? Welcome to freedom. It's going to be hard. And I think, you know, I was talking to someone recently and they said, you know, yeah, I did just accept a lot of these things.

And to be honest, it was, it was kind of easy to let, to have somebody do the thinking for me and stuff. I mean, told what to believe and stuff. And I think, now, you know, if you're walking out of this, I would say that, you know, the freedom to choose, I mean, you always had it, but now you can choose what you believe.

You can look at this stuff for yourself, really, examine it. And believe, I mean, if you want to, if they want to believe everything that after like a critical examination, if they want to believe everything that Mike Bick will talk to them, great.

But try to like see it from different perspectives. Look at the criticism of it. You know, and just, just don't become so. Yeah, I mean, now I'm talking to people over there. I mean, just be willing to just open your eyes and, you know, one of the things that I've kind of like struggled with, struggle with in this is that watching people come out of this.

And maybe you can speak to this. I mean, this was a question that I was going to ask you kind of like the same question because there's this, this, this, this tality from the people that are coming out.

And so it's, it's, I don't think it's true. I think it's a lie, but it's like, man, you know, I spent 15 years here. I spent five years here. I spent 20 years here.

All that time was a waste and I just don't believe that's true. I like, how did you, did you think all your time in the, in that environment was a, was a, was a waste like how there's another story.

I think that's, that's, that's, that's there. And, and I think that is that there's probably something very redemptive. You know, whenever I first left this, you go through all the stages of emotion. So first, you're angry at what they did to you.

You aren't really thinking in that way. You're just mad because they, these people deceived you, you know, and many of these people, your friends, they cut you off, your family, cut you off, but then you go through all the stages of grief.

And where you end up is deep sorrow for the people in it. And then after that subsides, then the reality hits you. Oh my gosh, I was in this thing and look at the wasted years I had.

Look at how hard it was. Now what do I have now? What do I have to show for all that time that I put in there? Everybody who leaves, that's one of the thoughts that they're going to get.

And where you, you can dwell on that and you can stay in there forever, it'll consume you. I chose to rise above it and wasn't easy. I'm not going to lie. It took a lot of work to rise above that where I ended up was, I tell people that it was as though I had been raised in a POW camp in Vietnam.

And all I knew was Vietnam. And all I knew with what my parents told me about the United States and what freedom is like in the United States. I never knew freedom. I was in a POW camp and then one day I was rescued and taken to the States and here's freedom.

And I now that I'm here on the United States, I want to explore everything. I want to live. I want to be excited. That moment hit me. I'll never forget it. You see, I'm a musician.

I see that you are too. You got some nicer guitars than I have hanging up there. Well, I'll never forget running up to my son's room upstairs. I think he was like 14 years old at the time.

One of the things in the brand of cult, you weren't allowed to listen to any music and that less it was the 1950s style old gospel. And I heard Bon Jovi's dead are alive for the first time and I got so excited to ran upstairs.

I told my son, you gotta hear this man. And so we enjoyed a moment together. There were many moments like this where I got to enjoy new things. So it was as though I experienced my childhood because I had risen above it.

And, you know, there's some danger in that as well. I know people who they weren't allowed to do lots of things. So they said, well, by God, I'm gonna go do all of them.

But by and large, the majority of the people there, they approach it with the mindset of an adult. So sometimes they're gonna do things that other adults wouldn't do. And I look at it, you know, some of them are supportive groups and they talk about it.

I just kind of ignore it because in normal parenthood, your children are going to go explore new things that they know they're not supposed to do because they wanna see if they like it or not.

And the parents are scolding them, now don't do that. But they realize that that's part of life. You wanna find who you are. And all this to say, there comes a point if you rise above it where you have to find out who you are, what you believe, what you stand for, what are your freedoms, what are your boundaries.

And I simply chose to rise above it. And to anybody who is escaping these things, that's my advice. When you escape, rise above it. Yeah, I mean, what could you say about it? I'd just been able to kind of reinvent your, and I may mess it wrong, but I don't know, kind of experience the world for the first time.

Yeah, well thank you so much for doing this. I'm sure listeners are going to be very excited to see you. I'm gonna throw a link to your website up where people can read the hidden chapter that nobody was supposed to see.

So we'll have access to that, and there'll be more information about Paul Cain to come very soon. We're, I'm still working through everything in that strategy. And there's only one of me, and I have some researchers helping me, but putting all this together, it's a great, great effort, a lot of time spent.

So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William-Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William-Branum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.