IHOP and the NAR: A Pattern of Abuse - With Awen Dunning

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and today I have my very special guest, Owen Dunning, advocate for victims of the International House of Prayer in the NAR.

Owen, I had so much fun talking to you last time that we both just collaborated and decided we've got to do this again because there's so much more to your story and there's so much more to the overall, you know, everything is going on right now between IHOP and the NAR and the history with Balkan and I'm getting flooded with emails from people who are either victims or historians or, you know, everybody's wanting more information and feeding me information, so I'm scrambling trying to organize the information and put it out on my website and ironically, the last time that

you and I spoke, I had started the page on the Emma Angel and so that had launched immediately prior to us talking. I didn't realize that it was going to be today and I had started into the video, which actually came out immediately before I hit record on this podcast, so the video will be out before this podcast lands.

Anyway, I'm trying to organize all of the information and you're giving me all kinds of good stuff and it would be very good to go through, you know, what's happening with the NAR IHOP right now and dive a little bit deeper on your history, your story, so very good to have you back.

Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, I guess then go too bad, you let me back. It's interesting because there's one little fun fact that I don't think I mentioned about Emma, the angel, is she always appeared to Bob Jones Bear Breasted.

Oh well. And I actually asked my husband recently, I was like, if a female angel who was Bear Breasted showed up to you with a message, what would you do? And he's like, I don't repeat that thing. The name of Jesus and Run, and I was like, good answer.

So, you know, the tales just keep going tall around on the line, I guess. It's so crazy. You know, some of these guys, I don't know if they did, but some of these guys that come up with these wild stories and they'll have some sketch artist or painter who will paint it.

So, I'm trying to picture, did he actually make a painting of this hanging in his office? Who knows? I've never seen an angel just tell you that, but I had sent you some information.

Last night, there's a girl named Judy Thomas who works for the Kansas City Star and she's been doing some digging into the prophetic history. And what it is is that it's a 12-hour documentation of spiritual experiences that led to the crescendo of 24-7 prayer, and times mobilization of messengers, and those types of things.

And so a journalist from the outside, not even knowing anything about this culture, began digging into some things that apparently no one ever has, just really mind-willing to me. So we've got to turn on our critical thought. We need to start asking for citations and proof of these things, but she found a very simple brick that it being pulled can cause a lot of this to tumble down.

And that is the fact that Anna Cain, Paul Cain's mother, did not die at 418, on 418, and wake up from a coma potentially in Whisper Luke 418, which led to the 24-hour house of prayer.

It's so, you know, I'm laughing and I shouldn't laugh because there are people that believed it. But when I left the Branum Movement, they had so many weird things like that. And they would do plays on numbers and names and numbers in the names and all kinds of weird things. And when you left, you had two choices.

You either cry about the nonsense that they put in your head or you laughed about it. I chose to laugh because that's my nature. But, you know, we believe so many things that were false. And I'll never forget, whenever I left, when you leave a faith healing cult, they immediately attack you with faith healing examples.

So you're leaving, well, you might get cancer, you're leaving, you might get sick, how are you going to heal yourself if you leave? That's the kind of things that I put up with when my family left. And one of the big things, they kept mentioning this name, Donnie Morton, which you will have never heard.

But it was one of the most famous healings of William Branum. It made readers digest, it told the story of, it was called The Miracle of Donnie Morton, and readers digest. It told the story of the father coming from Saskatchewan to the meetings and in the States with his son who, I can't remember his, some kind of spinal disease, I can't remember exactly, but anyway, I got beat over the head.

What about Donnie Morton? You don't believe this failed prophecy, but what about Donnie Morton? And it wasn't until after I left that I actually read the article and well, Branum claimed that he healed the kid over and over and over, and the kid died of the same disease that brought his father to the prayer lines.

It was very much like what I read with Paul Cain. I'm certain that they went to everybody's head with this stuff, and everybody believed that nobody stopped to look at the actual information. Did this really happen?

Yeah, well, we've got a birth certificate and we've got a photo of a tombstone, so I'd say that speaks, you know, louder than words. It's something we heard over and over and over again, in the fall of 96 or early 97, Paul Cain came to town and this was before we even, there was a trailer and then there was a strutmall for the prayer.

And before that, there was a prayer room just attached to Metro, the church. And Paul came and spoke and Mike told that story. And he was present and Paul was, you know, leaning over his mom's ear and she was in a coma and she wakes up and says this.

And of course, it's a youth prayer movement, right? So it's all youth there on Wednesday night, I'll never forget. And we're leaning forward on our seat. Wow, you know, sign me up, I'm in.

And, you know, Paul's sitting right there and, you know, he goes up and, you know, gives some message about Joel too and, you know, this and that and what's really interesting is looking back.

I just remember Paul and I's eyes met once and I remember the creepiest feeling that I ever got me to. But at the time, I was like, oh my gosh, it must be like the presence of God and the fear of God.

I thought he was going to like read my soul and know everything about me or something. And here it was, there's a sham, that one. Yeah. And all the time, he's probably looking at you thinking, I wonder if she knows that I'm pulling the scam off on these people.

Not yet, Paul, but just give it time. So what's interesting is there's another guy on Twitter last night who said, hey, I was just watching Paul Kane's funeral and a man named Reed Grafke was on there.

I knew Reed before he passed. And anyway, so he spoke at the funeral and he tells the story of how Anakin died in his arms. And I watched again last night and I thought, that's interesting.

Then I found some clips of Mike talking and he tells the story over and over and over again. And every time he says there was three people in the room. There was a medical professional, Paul, Mike, and Anna.

Never even mentions that Reed was there. And so now we've got a fourth man in the fire, you know what I'm gonna say to you. And you know, it's just that they're not adding up.

And you know, there isn't anything more important to Mike Bigel than the grand story that he cast to draw people into his thing. There's many discrepancies in this thing, but this one alone is almost, it's again, like I said, that lynch pin.

And you know, it's time to look at the fruit also. In this 12 hour story that's built on the foundation of three proven, you know, predators and one with ongoing multiple allegations right now.

So that's four predators. It's, you know, why are we even weeding through? What's true and what's not at this point? I think it's been pretty debunked. Yeah. And it's hard to get into the mindset of these guys, because they all know what they're saying is not true.

But you look at the way that they pull these things off and you can tell very clearly that it wasn't planned. Like they didn't get together and make sure that all of our stories must match, right?

Some guy just says it off the cuff. And then another guy hears him say it so they decide they're gonna run with it. Who does this? It doesn't even make sense. And you know, I grew up with the same kind of stories.

They, none of them would make sense to you because it was the Brannum callton. It was, I call it from the 50s. So I believe things like the man could speak squirrels into existence, which is utter nonsense.

I believe that, I'm gonna pull it down. I believe that the man had a magic sword. William Brannum had a magic sword. That was one of the things. And one of my friends who has escaped the Brannum call to actually sent me this magic sword after he escaped.

And so I have a, not quite magical sword on my desk, but they tell the people this nonsense. And then all of the leaders just accept the fact that this nonsense is going to be part of our mythology.

And everybody runs with it. And nobody stops to critically think, did the guy really have a magic sword? Were there really, you know, three guys who were in the room with Paul Kane that night?

None of it makes any sense. Yeah, what's interesting is he says that the medical person left for a moment and, you know, Mike says he was looking at the clock when, you know, she died.

So he saw for 18. And apparently the medical professionals came back in and said, what time did she die? And they took the time that Mike told her and wrote it down. It's just, no, that's not how medical things happen when people die.

It's just, and so you don't think about these things, but I think what's difficult to pick through is that we do believe in the supernatural. I have seen things to this day as I dug through everything that I cannot explain that no one could have faked, right?

So, you know, I have experienced things that are real, but you have to use critical thinking. There has to be proof. Documented things with doctors, those types of things. And we just have been really trained not to do that.

And by and large, academia has been really poo-pooed. Come to our, you know, ministry schools and learn our stuff from us and go do the stuff. It's kind of where we're at. And, you know, give up everything for the greater calling.

And, you know, we become largely clones in a movement creating a man's vision over and over and over again. Yeah. And to the supernatural effect, there are some of our listeners who believe in it, some who do not.

But if you do believe in it, you know, there were things that happen in the brand of movement that I can't explain. Doesn't mean that I believe it was supernatural yet, you know, it may be proof false here and there, but let's say that it was...

us. That doesn't necessarily mean it came from the good supernatural force. You know what I'm saying? I do. I mean, I think that, you know, they always taught us about false prophets and all these people way out there somewhere, you know? And when you look through the scriptures on false prophets, they actually check every single box, frankly. And so it's interesting because it just slides right underneath you. And, you know, I mean, Scripture says that they'll stand before the Lord and say, didn't I prophesy in your name? Didn't I do signs and wonders in your name? And he'll say, I don't even know you. And so we have to realize

that there is a piece of the puzzle there as far as maybe there were things that happened. I'm, you know, this didn't happen, but there could be other things that happen. And, you know, what were they teaching? Were they predators? Were they abusing people their whole lives? Were they introducing heretical or even occultic doctrines into the church?

I'm sorry, that's a false prophet. And it's not my job to point fingers at who I think those are, but, you know, let's turn on her brains and start looking around. Look at the history. Yeah, absolutely. Because you can't really, if you turn off critical thought, even if you're in a movement that is led by a genuinely good person who has the right spirit, the right doctrine, you know, a really good man or female who's running the show, it doesn't mean that they will always remain that way. They may fall into a mental health disorder or anything could happen. And if you disengage critical thought, the moment

that starts going the opposite direction, if you're not critically examining what's going on, suddenly you're caught in a movement that is not a good one. Yeah, that's really true. I've actually been in a lot of different things over the years. It's, you know, like I said before, I have been out of much of the stuff for a really long time, besides listening to a few teachings here and there that I wouldn't even feel comfortable listening to anymore, frankly. And it's gotten a lot more wild since I've been around. And I'm not just talking about I have, it's really progressed. I just live very organically life on life,

other believers getting together meals, doing our life together. And man, am I glad I've chosen that except instead of the path that I was on. So I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about the path I was on. Absolutely. All of this is fascinating to me. I think I've mentioned several times on the podcast, but my research really stopped about 1970 and I went backwards, but only recently I'm starting to go forwards and connect everything that I have in my history to modernization. So I'm largely learning from you as you send me stuff. And you've, I can't tell you how many videos and documents you've sent. I've

gone through about a third of them at this point and I'm just cataloging them. So fascinated to hear your story and hear more about you. Yes. So, you know, by and large, I'm not going to name any names. You know, I want to talk about the things that I've been through, the things that I've seen, a lot of ugly things.

And my purpose isn't offense or bitterness or, you know, to hurt different people or something like that. It's about, let's just talk about the movement. I think you and Charles and, you know, other folks you've worked with have done such a great job, not only with the whole podcast, which I recommend, but specifically the episodes on NAR, Jane Leade, the converging apostasy, because that applies very, very directly to these folks that I'm gonna be talking about.

And so I don't feel like I need to talk all about, you know, the doctrines, but more may be the fruit of what it was like to be in it. What did it look like on the ground?

And so, you know, all that to say, I've lived in Kansas City four times, and I've lived in Colorado twice. I've been involved in various ministries, not for profits, you know, for profit. So I'm gonna jump all around a little bit on purpose, just because, again, it's not my, I'm not trying to throw specific people under the vass of that makes sense.

Yeah, that makes sense. One of the things I think is kind of interesting is, you know, specifically at Metro, I will say that, you know, Mike Biggle always said he was a first commandment, not a second commandment guy.

And when I was young, that seemed like a normal phrase to say, as an adult, I think, man, the second somebody heard somebody say that they should have, like, immediately been sent to counseling or a sabbatical or something.

This is not normal, it's not okay to, you know, basically make excuses for the fact that, you know, of your behavior being a certain way. And he, you know, when I spent a lot of time with him, it was kind of like, he was trying to work all the second commandment out of me a little bit more, that I needed to be far more of a Mary than I was a Martha, that, you know, my weakness was gonna be, that I was gonna do things for people all the time and burn myself out and not get oil like the virgins.

And so I remember grappling with the concept of him, am I gonna be a second commandment guy, or a first commandment guy, you know, what am I gonna be? And I decided to be really wild and crazy one day and I was like, I think I'm gonna try to do both.

And as I look back, I just think it's so silly. But he decided to bring in the second commandment guys. And there was this guy brought in to run the whole youth. And one day I was, I was 22 at this time and I went up for prayer.

And this guy comes up to me for this ministry time. And he's like, I would like to put my hand on your stomach because that okay, and I'm like, yeah. He's like, well, you put your hand on your stomach.

I said, sure. And he put his hand over it and he instantly started proclaiming over me, healing from abortions. And I'm like, what in the world is going on right now? And I've just kind of spat them on like, I haven't had an abortion, but I felt so absolutely violated in that moment.

And I don't even know what was going down. So this was the second commandment guy, remember. And he came into the ministry that I worked with later and he was talking about, yeah, sometimes you get prophecies for people and they will deny that it's true, but you know, you just...

do the polite thing and apologize even if you know it's true. And then he made eye contact with me. And I just felt like that was one of the strangest encounters I was never comfortable around that man again.

And of course there's other stories that could be told. But this is just such an example of someone thinking that they're, I don't know, all seeing, all knowing. And, you know, I should have never been standing there alone with him, let alone with his hand on my hand, on my stomach.

And these are just not things you just do. This is a topic that wasn't for you, buddy, you know? Yeah. Well, it wasn't true. Yeah. Well, and it's a numbers game, right? So he does this to you in a room full of people.

So the majority of the people is going to think he's had some sort of prophetic insight. And if it's not true for you, the majority of the people that he embarrasses like this are just going to walk away and leave the group.

And so the whole rest of the audience, who has seen this thing happen, think, wow, that was a prophetic insight. But in the off chance that he actually got it right by guessing. And the person said, oh my gosh, how did you know?

Then suddenly he's a prophet. And I've learned that in these movements, that's how these guys operate. They will randomly throw out whatever will stick. And if it sticks, then suddenly they're a prophet. I just, you know, sometimes you don't even realize how nuts something is until later.

Because, you know, you're normal as you're normal and everything was weird, you know? And so I've got friends, even charismatic friends, that were just in far more normal settings, very more laid back, healthier settings.

And I tell them stories. And I see their face go white sometimes. Or they're like, how is it that, you know, they're like, you have filled 19 bingo cards. I'm like, I know. So there's just so many things that went on there.

So our ministry ended up getting asked to leave. And there's a whole kind of story there where there was some abuse cover up. But the ministry was asked to leave. And what we did is we shot directly out into Colorado Springs, which was kind of the hotbed at that time for what was really beginning as labeled as the, you know, new Apostolic Reformation bar.

And obviously it's not a 501-183. It's not an organization. It's a set of ideologies that have come out of the idea that apostles have been restored on the earth. And so I came from the land of prophets and that, you know, there was a decade of God or two of reestablishing that.

And then it was launching into the next, you know, several decades of restrained apostolic to the church. So what I decided to do was get a hold of Peter Wagner's books because, hey, anybody heading into something should learn.

And I read four or five of his books. And I just was like intrigued and yet horrified. But the reality of it was a very militant, very, you know, casting principalities out of, you know, boulders and archways over cities.

And just... this needing to have an apostle over you in order for you to be safe, and you cannot fulfill your calling or your destiny or, you know, this, that, the other thing, without this type of thing in place. And this is really believed. This is really believed, John. Yeah. You know, I've studied, like I said, mostly up until the 70s, but as I've got into the new apostolic reformation and many of the branches, I was a little surprised at how vast the network is. There's a book, and I'll try to throw up on the screen, but there's a book I'm reading that is giving a broad overview of

some of the networks, and it's fascinating to me to see how extensive it is, but even more fascinating as I go look at some of the offshoots of those branches, they're all using loaded language and acronyms that are very militant. I came across one just the other day, a friend was asking me about this NAR group. So I pull it up and I look and right on the website, they're using the acronyms like war, but the words that they're using for the acronym are things like we are righteous or, you know, something that doesn't mean militant, but they're using the acronym so that

subliminally gets in your head, and these people are thinking this way. On the other extreme, I saw some of the NAR groups that are actually using terminology, like we need a civil war, and they're, you know, they're talking about spiritual warfare, but you get some crazy person in the congregation, and you just beat that into their head, well, they're going to do some crazy things. It's like a giant pot of gumbo, right? It really depends on which little, you know, group you're in, or this or that, what their beliefs are. I mean, you'll meet people that think, oh,

that's all mumbo jumbo, and you know, people that write the books on it and everywhere in between, so it really does depend. But just the idea that Jesus isn't are covering or enough, or, you know, and so, of course, there's very black and white thinking. If you don't agree with this mentality, well, you're literally in rebellion, or have a spirit of rebellion, and so, you know, the opposite of being under an apostle is not a rebellion, and so the gray areas need to be established. I firmly believe that we need to live in relationship with people. If I ran a church or something, and someone

was going to come and speak, I'd want to know who are your people? Who are you accountable to? But not, you know, have you submitted and tied to your apostle yet? Because that's a really big thing. In order to have an apostle, you have got to give a certain amount of money to them in order to, you know, I guess, it's just part of the rules. So, I end up out in Colorado Springs, and I'm going to live with the host family, and I will say this, they were really in many ways, just very wonderful, hospitable people. Happened to be one of the right hand men of Peter Wagner,

and, you know, they were establishing, you know, Wagner Institute at that time. So, I knew several of the prophets or apostles or whatever at this time through that, and to get my interview in order to, you know, do they want to have me moving with them?

I met them over at their offices. And the very first thing that happened was he put his hand on me and started prophesying massive wealth over my life that I was gonna have all this wealth.

And you gotta remember that I just came from the Bickel sect. And our core values were kind of extreme poverty. And there were rules about not prophesying money and stuff. So I was like, Toto, we are not in Kansas anyway.

This is very different. I just remember like, I reject that word. And the name of Jesus is like under my breath. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I will. I wish somebody would prophesy that for me.

And I wish it would also come true. So I mean, it was just very like, wow, okay. It was my awakening too. I am in Narland, you know? And of course, it wasn't a real common term, yeah.

You know, Peter Wagner kind of coined that phrase in his books. But so we had a lot of different conversations at first time. And I have no idea how we got into this conversation.

I'm there with the gentleman from our ministry and him. And before you know what they're talking about the reality that African-Americans did not learn with a lesson that God wanted them to learn by 400 years of slavery and how the civil rights movement is this false justice movement and all this stuff.

And I'm just sitting there like, we are not having this conversation surely. Wow. I just was like, no, I could be very quiet around things I didn't agree with, but there's lines that are crossed.

And now that I know a lot of the, you know, white nationalism and some of those things through studying Brandon's teachings and his friends and all of that, I recognize that it had leaked into the thinking of these folks and it was coming out.

I was just about to say, you wouldn't make it through five Brandon sermons. No, I don't think they would have liked me very much. John, what do you think?

And it's really sad like I've, I've publicly apologized several times. I had friends who had black skin growing up because I seriously did not know that I was racist. Had no idea that they programmed this into my head because they programmed it into your head with the false assessment of what they're teaching you saying that it is not a racist thing we're teaching you.

And yet they're teaching you racism of the 60s. It's horrific. And after I left, I was just mortified. Like I actually mentally went back through my head of all of the non-cult black people that I had encountered.

And I started thinking, well, how many of those saw me as this white supremacist that I was manipulated to be and it's horrific? Yeah. Right in the line of that teaching, there's some really good programming that really happens throughout a lot of places.

Don't touch God's anointed, you know, the whole David story. Don't entertain a false accusation. There's nothing greater than, I had a quote recently, I put on Twitter and I said, you know, apparently the only...

and worse than clergy sexual abuse is being offended by it. So the offense is a really big one in this movement. If, you know, to cry out about anything, to talk about any wrong, you know, you're just offended or cancel culture, that kind of thing.

But one of the teachings that we had that relates back to the racial stuff is we were taught that Ham was cursed because he found Noah drunk after, you know, the boat landed, right?

And he went and told his brothers, Shem and Jaipath. And they, you know, backed in and didn't look upon Noah's nakedness and covered him. And so now the whole continent of Africa is cursed.

And I was so fixated on, oh my gosh, I don't want to be cursed. I mean, it deeply programs you. Don't be an apsilom as another one. You know, David's son who rose up in a queue against him.

So you're so afraid to talk about anything when you leave. And those types of things. So I didn't even realize the horribly racial component to the reality of that teaching about Ham. I hadn't made that connection.

I know that silly. Well, I had no idea. Like it wasn't, honestly, I'd been, I don't know, almost a decade out. And it was Charles, as he was telling us about, he had studied white supremacy in depth before he had left the message because he had stumbled onto some secret sayings that were among the elite in the cult.

And he's the one that taught me that the sin of Ham came straight from Wesley Swift and the Christian identity movement. And suddenly, we both started putting all the pieces together and I think he realized at first that William Brandham Serpent Seed doctrine teaches that evolution of the people with the curse of Ham.

And then that was spread all throughout the anti-civil rights movement in the 60s. That's where this originated. I had no idea. We had the same doctrine and I had no idea it was racist.

I mean, I certainly saw races and don't get me wrong. But the focus for me is I just never want to be a person who does that. And honestly, beginning to speak out is very healing for me because I'm breaking so many things that I kept quiet about for years or you talked about quietly with your therapist or something.

And scripture, in my mind, is very clear that we should be exposing evil. And there was a narer prophet when all the Bickelstuss started coming about, he heard the audible voice of God that no one was supposed to talk about it.

And that only those in places of authority like apostles and prophets had any right to be discussing this. And I'm thinking there are thousands of people chewed up by this movement. First of all, they have every right to talk about anything that they want to.

But who are you to say that they don't have the authority because they haven't been crowned as an apostle or a prophet? Because they crown each other, right? They enthrone each other and they're the only ones that can dethrone each other.

And no one else can be talking about it. say at the Lord. It's just a dictatorship. Nothing more. Yeah. So I do want to say something about a man named Luingle. And I knew Lu Eons ago, right, 1996, 1997. And I've got this to say, I haven't tracked his life much except for just some skimming in recent days. And who I knew back then was a very childlike, single-minded person. One of the few leaders that I saw be very kind to weight staff, kind to people behind the scenes. He was the same in front of people

as behind. But he was the first person ever that I heard about getting mantles from graves from. And he himself had done it. It never occurred to me that it would be weird. You have so much trust in these people. When they say they love Jesus, you love Jesus, you just think everything that they say. They're so wise. They fast all the time. They're so special. And, you know, thankfully, I've never gone to a grave to get a mantle. But, you know, I sure wanted to. If there would have been one there, I probably would have done it. And it was my first introduction also to what I'll

call revivalism. And this thing of reaching back to mantles of the past, reaching back to movements to see power come again on earth, I have no problem with the concept of God's power. I really don't.

But entire systems and structures, hours of man hours, young people that come into movements, and they work hours and hours and hours, sometimes pay to be there, usually pay to be there, or raise their own support. And so we spend all of this time gathering in these frenzied places, trying to seek things that I don't know why aren't we doing soup kitchens and growing in relationships that are secure and attached and living for now and creating a legacy. I don't know if that makes sense. It does. The whole mantle thing. I have to laugh because I saw a different

side of it. I live in Jeffersonville where William Brannum's head church was. My grandfather was the pastor for 50 years. And about, I think it's one block or two blocks away from the church, is the grave where William Brannum's pyramid tombstone sits. And we had all kinds of people coming trying to catch the mantle of Brannum. And literally every time I travel through that part of town, I will purposefully drive by the grave site so I can get another photo of people who are laying down and praying to this grave. And this whole mantle thing, man, it's like, I don't know,

something out of a Harry Potter movie. We're talking mad about Harry Potter job. I'm right. It's the concept of a mantle, right? It comes from the coat that Elijah threw down to a lion. He receives a coat. He gets, you know, he does double the miracles. And so I look at it as this one tenant in Old Testament.

Scripture before people I don't know everybody got the indwelling spirit in the New Testament, right? And we don't need to be William Brannum, please anyway, but we're it's kind of like taking the doctrine of you know You'll be you know Bit by serpents and you won't die and then oh we got us handle snakes now in church You know and it's taking one story and creating entire movements out of things Yeah, and you know why wouldn't you just be the very best John that God has ever created you to be?

Well, I know like right across the river literally right across the river I've been there a few times. I can go to the grave of Colonel Sanders But you don't see me laying on the grave so I can make better fried chicken It's just the whole idea is just so absurd

So you know betta-lu just for a moment goodness One of the things that I'd be you know you don't know what to look for in the teachings by the way if you haven't studied other things If you haven't studied Occultic teachings you're not going to realize that you're getting occultic teachings, right?

You're going to think that you know somebody throws some labels on it from the Bible or whatever it is And so we've got plenty of that well now that I know what some of Brannum's prophecies were in his teachings I can pick them out of things not only I've heard but clips that I've seen now and there's actually two different prophecies from remember Those 1933 prophecies that didn't actually actually ever get set out loud From willing random We have a couple of those still going through our movement and Everybody that you talk to pretty much will say that yes

California is going to fall into the sea Because it's so simple and I just I didn't realize where that one came from and Then the other one is the idea of the female rebellion at the end of the age Straight out of plan on is him Yeah, it is so you know, that's why I actually had brought up Lou is I actually want to read a quote here quickly from him Direct quote. I've got the clip. I sent it to you. I still believe something stronger is coming to America Stronger than the rebellion of the Me too movement stronger than the female rebellion prophesied at the end of the age

There is coming a new generation Maybe the final last stand that can break this thing for rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft Well, it's straight out of Brannumism and I have to say this for the audience that are listening We have a different audience that is listening to your podcast. I have to say this to those people because they probably never heard it These people reference William Brannum because he had an alleged seven prophecies in 1933 and right on his building You can look at a stone inset or concrete inset that says dedicated in 1933. I grew up seeing this

We were told that those seven prophecies were written on a piece of paper Buried under that under the corner stone of that building. I knew this for use my grandfather said it from behind the pulpit four decades. And it wasn't until after I left and I began digging into all of this, I realized that the seven prophecies that were listed across the various years, they weren't the same seven, they kept changing. New ones were added, some were taken away, some were changed. And at one point in time, Brannum claims to have read from the paper that it's supposed to be buried under the

building. And he says he's revising them a bit. And it wasn't until after all of this I learned, I have a deed, the copy of the deed to the building. The deed wasn't until like 1936. And my grandfather was there when they dug up this cornerstone. A guy came with a jackhammer and they dug it up when Brannum died. It was completely empty. There were no prophecies in it. My grandfather was also there whenever a car ran into it years later. And some guy said, hey, that's the corner where those prophecies are buried. I wonder if they're in there. And my grandfather apparently pretended that

he had never seen it empty. So they dug it up a second time. And then after all of this, he still claims that they're buried in that empty place that he's witnessed it being opened twice.

All of these guys that are referencing Brannum's prophecies like this, the referencing complete one thing I do want to say about Lou is that and I sent you this clip as well, John, is that he he recently repented for he felt like God has spoke to him and said that the Me Too movement was something God used. So I think it's very fair to clear that part up. But my whole point of reading that quote was actually that he references this female rebellion at the end of the age. I can't imagine. I mean, it cast women in this light every time we speak up, every time we share something,

every time we say something's wrong, up female rebellion at the end of the age. And so it's so misogynistic and evil. And when you think about where it came from, I mean, Brannum thought that women were worse than hogs and dogs and not worth a clean bullet and should be beaten and all those other things. And he came up with that prophecy. I mean, this was a man who apparently did not care for women. And we're standing on these prophecies still. And I just think it's well, it's evil. It's bad. It really is. And he's also traveling with men who didn't have a natural

affection for women. And there's some question as to his own natural affection. But it was so misogynistic, I did not realize that either until I mean, it was years later after I left. I started going through the prophecies. And I'm like, well, number one, the the actual prophecy, the actual alleged prophecy is that women would be granted the right to vote and therefore would cause the destruction of the United States. I'm laughing because it's so absurd when I think about it. But that was supposed to be a 1930.

three women were allowed to vote long before 1933. So the whole prophecy timeline doesn't even make sense. But when you take a step back from it, what he's trying to do is he's trying to oppress the women in his church. And that's that's continuing today in other churches. I'll just say it like that. I have a story about me to actually one of the ministries that I was involved with a youth pastor that was associated with us took Michael's teachings and used it to groom his entire youth group sexually men boys and girls and minors were involved as well. And it all came out that's

kind of a whole long story. But I was the one that this person had confided to and I went to our leaders because this was something I could not hold and they went to the youth pastor's church and they all heard from God that it was better to just bring get healing for the girls and that it would be so much harder on them to come forward. And I mean at the time I raised a stink. I actually went to the church that was over us and you know they were able to convince these survivors

that it was better. You can't make a survivor come forward. And it's something that in great detail has haunted me for years John. And you know could have I done something different could have I done more you know I can't take the right away from a survivor to come forward. So fast forward many years I get a phone call and the survivors have banded together after they saw the Me Too movement in Harvey Weinstein taken down they recognized their abuse and that they had been silence and all determined to make a police report. So I get a call from the detective didn't even

rehash any of the details with the girls and I remembered every nitty gritty detail because I've got kind of a creepy brain that does that but also these types of things get burned into your soul and you do not forget them. And just a couple of years ago we were able to make police reports on that because of Me Too. Wow that's incredible. I wish I didn't have so many stories like that John there's too many. Yeah I mean the Bible says by the fruit you'll know it and this seems to be the fruit that is following this these movements as they grow and progress. Yeah so you know kind

of back to some of the NARS stuff it was interesting there was a bookstore called The Arsenal and there was in order to get into you know Peter Wagoners ministry they had their own you know special entrances but when guests came they had to be checked in and you know by appointment everything was very secretive. Prayer rooms are called war rooms. We couldn't even look at the mail so they came out and sorted through it and got their mail. Couldn't even touch it. So we'd have to buzz back the males here they'd come get the male and then we could go look through our

male to do our jobs and so it was just very there's lots of like invite only things that happen. And, you know, of course, every year, the profits and apostles get together and put together about 120 to 140 page report on what's gonna happen throughout, you know, the earth.

And that's where this word came out that there was gonna be a Cyrus and that led to everybody deciding who was gonna be president and pumping it to their millions of followers. And so, it doesn't matter where you stand on those types of issues at all.

And, you know, do you think somebody's a good or bad guy or whatever, there is a very political, militant aspect to what these folks are up to. And there's an agenda. They want to, the structures that were in place that you just mentioned, it's to keep the rank and file members separate from the authority in the pyramid structure of authoritarian control.

So they, they establish all of these methods to keep you in a military style as a private, basically in this army that they're creating, but they're all the generals. I remember a really, you know, granted, I came from a pretty unhealthy place, right?

One thing I will say is I had done this 11 month discipleship program with a guy that I will say, I would detangle some of the things that were taught and he at this point would have detangled some of the things he taught to, okay?

But by and large, it was very much lifestyle who cares about all the mumbo jumbo of all the power and the prophetic character, those types of things. And there was a lot of rooting and grounding that happened in me about, you know, don't go out and face the North and the South and the east of the West and take on principalities over cities and those types of things.

And I am so thankful that his voice was in the back of my head the entire time I was in this world because they were taking high, you know, trips to Asia and casting down principalities over Asia so that, you know, everybody in Asia could get saved.

I overheard a conversation one time, I heard them talking about it twice, that's never happened to my knowledge, but they were thinking about buying Mongolia because they had a lot of debt and there was a lot of orphans there that could be brought in and trained up to be this, you know, army of God.

And I remember at the time thinking, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, you're thinking about buying a country, you know, no talk of the poor orphans that need love and parents, you know, they would be good trainees.

But, you know, now that I'm connecting all of the frame of thought behind how they operate what they do, it's far more concerning to me that that was a conversation. Well, and so I'm looking into the histories and it was nothing new, you look back at, like John Alexander Dowey was gonna go buy Jerusalem.

All of these men, they come up with these absurd ideas and you have to wonder, were they really, really intently going to do this, or were they just saying it so they could band everybody together with some common goal, some common.

objective to to get the heads together and then manipulate the heads. I tend to think that they're just talking nonsense to manipulate the heads. I'll say this. I saw a lot of money coming through for programs and events that we're going to take place. And so there's a lot of very wealthy people all around the world and this in the Asian community specifically overseas that sent large, large chunks of money in. And so I don't know where it all went, what the purpose was, people can give to whatever they want. But I was like, wow, there's a lot going on here. And on the

lighter side, there's just some funny things. They're very weird. But I've been in places they've literally had to ban shofar because you can only imagine all the shofar of them. I've been in a lot of places where they've had to ban swords. We didn't have anyone have a magical sword show up, but they always had swords. There was a lot of lots of strong.

And so I literally have, I've lost count how many times I've been knighted in ceremonies. You know, I've danced under bridal canopies. I don't even know what the heck that was, but they were doing it. So, you know, I shot under there with a good dance. There's been some of the most just bizarre reenactments of things. I've met people that there's a prophetess that was in Colorado. She's somewhere else now. She's an apostle now. But she had this stick of authority. And she would do these things in the front, you know, and point the stick one direction. And everybody looked that direction and they proclaimed something

that way. And then move the other way, carve words on the bottom of staffs. And when they pounded them into the ground, it released it on the earth. I mean, I've seen it all.

I've never had my own to stick though. I open just telling you. See, it sounds so much more fun than our groups. We never did cosplay. I was going to say it was a lot of lurpin, you know, I mean, it really was. There was plenty of cosplay. And we have costumes. There's people who dress up like things. There's been several encounters with I haven't personally, but people I know with the two witnesses.

Some archangel Michael has shown up once. And this pastor that had to deal with him, you know, Kabaskin, I'm okay. What's your real name? He's like Michael. And finally, he said, what is the name your mother gave you at birth? And I believe he said, I'm believable.

So, you know, you know, certainly I'm not making fun of, you know, mental illness and Jerusalem effect and those types of things. I'm just, their levity is needed when we're talking about abuse. But I think that these movements draw a lot of folks with mental issues.

I think they also can make it worse or create mental issues. And so I feel like per capita in the movements I was in, I met a lot more than you just do in your average life.

Yeah. So at the Brannum Tabernacle, there is an actual sword above the door and people steal the sword. So as you were talking about, they don't have the swords in your group. We actually had one and people in the neighborhood would steal the swords and there's always all this big problem right because there's a little weapon going around the streets of Jeffersonville and we attracted the nut jobs too. And I'm saying that I should not use that word. We attracted people who had mental health issues. I use that word because that's what the deacons called these people because they

would show up with like one guy, he would show up every Easter almost every Easter that I can remember. I don't think he missed one, but he had this big box truck and he painted this big sign that said William Brannum is God or no William Brannum son Joseph. Joseph is God on the side of this truck and he would park it right at the door. So as you're entering the church on Easter, the son is God. The son of Brannum is God I should say. And so they had this whole plan to cover up the truck with tarps or whatever. They actually kept tarps at the church to cover this guy's

church. This guy's truck up. So we attracted some strange oddities as well and there is a point to this story. We're examining the fruits which we've talked about or a lot of sexual problems.

Well also the attraction of people who have mental health issues is one of the fruits of this ministry. Yeah it really is. I mean we had this one woman who showed up in a wedding dress and combat boots and wore in bride really big across her head. We had another woman that would use bull horns and she would stomp her feet on the ground and race back and forth in the front and charge. I'm not even sure what was going on there but there were I mean I could we could spend two episodes just telling these stories seriously. One thing I did want to say on a more

serious note is I had been hearing since I popped back up into this world to speak about what's going on the concept of cloud of witnesses and because people were telling me that you know a Elijah all these different people were showing up to these prophets and apostles and telling them things and I my first question was they're talking to the dead like hello I've read that scripture don't talk to the dead and they're like but I just thought it was the cloud of witnesses that was their like response back to me of you know could it be that it was real and I had no idea what

that whole concept man I mean obviously we know from scripture right you're thrown by such a cloud witnesses well in studying and listening to your stuff I've started diving into these concepts of cloud witnesses being these occultic teachings that justify it they slap a biblical term on and then justifying taking counsel.

There's people talking to Elijah and Timothy and John the Baptist and they're coming back with these teachings So they give these whole teachings and as you read them, you're like holy gibberish nonsense abuse But built into those word is there will be there are people whose hearts are hardened and you know They will be blind and they can't see and so instead of scripturally where we should be submitting our words One to another to determine are things even true all discernment is cast out because anyone that doesn't have eyes to see that I've been talking to the true dead people

Yeah, it's you know a past date or something and even that is a fruit of this because in the latter-rain movement One of the gimmicks is whenever the faith healing failed and then a person died from that People like William Brannum would go into the realm of the dead and then come back and say I saw her and She died. Yes, even though I had healed her, but she's happier there So we're gonna leave her there and that was their excuse for the failed healing so the latter-rain movement kind of produced this notion that it was

Holy to talk to the dead whenever it's an abomination that was punishable by death in the Old Testament right One of the other things that you know, I feel very naive about things is this whole, you know, dominion theology and seven mountains because I'm a I'm a bit of a later doctor after all the things I've been through and so when a popular wind-in-wave of doctrine rolls on through or Some book about courts of heaven or whatever it might be I'm kind of like okay, you know, I feel like I'm doing fine over here guys

And so I'm like what is the seven mountains thing and somebody's like you know explain you're going into all the areas of whatever and in my mind How I interpreted that is oh salt and light like you know It was a refreshing thought to me without knowing anything about it because there's so much that's very cloistered There's there's being so heavily minded. There's no earthly good, you know We're just gonna stand our little prayer room all the time and not really do much of anything for anyone and I just thought oh Finally, they're leaving the dang building. This is probably good. Well

You know a deeper dive into the seven mountains mandate when you think about that those concepts actually came from very occultic teachings Show up through it's what Bill Brighton also Lauren Cunningham's interestingly enough very very similar wording plagiarized from somewhere and When you add in the militant thoughts, I mean you have to know what it really means because it can be packaged and presented like oh go be salt and light I was like good for you finally, but You don't know until you know that these are actually this doesn't end well and we've we examine the

Kingdom theology as it relates to the Christian identity movement and You can you can look back in history and you can see elements of the seven mountain mandate in very militant white supremacy groups at the early 1900s, as they're fighting against some of the mountains where we want to take dominion over the education system, the politics, the family, the home. They were trying to do the same thing. They didn't call it spiritual warfare. They were actually acting it out, but then you trace this through the movement and you can see elements of that all the way to the

NAR. So it's foundation. Yes, it is in mysticism, etc. But also it has an actual history that dates back to the clan. I think one of the things that grooves me the most is this us versus them mentality. You see these veins running through every single thing I've watched that I've been a part of. Not only is there a authoritarian abuse of some sort, but there's this very elitism.

We've got special revelation. They'll even fight with different camps because our revelation over here is better than yours, but yet we'll play together nice on the stage at times. And if somebody decides to leave a movement or even deconstructs their faith, they suddenly have no morals. They bring no truth. They're not even a whole person. Your abuse isn't valid because you don't think or believe like I do. And it's so counterproductive to anything that Jesus said, acted like, lived, that it's destroying people. They're out pounding the heavens and casting down demons and all these other things and taking over seven mountains to save the people

when they're chewing up thousands and thousands and thousands of their own. And honestly, I feel like in some of these movements, I've met more people who've probably walked away from Jesus than they have ever brought into the kingdom through pounding the mall and Washington DC or something. It's just so sad and so unnecessary because it's so the antithesis of Jesus is hard. It's grievous. It is really sad and you can examine any cult I don't care which one it is. They will present in us versus them mentality because that's how they create the cult structure. If they can keep you in the mindset of the group think and then present it such that

anybody who's not in that group think is a them versus us, they've created a wall, a boundary around you to keep you contained inside and that's simply how cult works. There's so much fear about if you buy something from a yard cell or a thrift store, you could be bringing a demon home or be careful about everything you see and do because you be inviting a demon and then they're literally teaching a cult teachings on the other hand.

And no one's none the wiser. They don't realize it's it's wild. I actually left a ministry that I was working with because my director who was a spiritual dad. I was, let's just say, pursuing me.

And I had that documented, I have witnesses. It was really ugly. And I didn't see it, I didn't notice it. At all, I thought it was what spiritual dads did until I noticed it, I'll just say that.

And this is how brainwashed I was about leaving quietly. I wanted to leave well. So here I am in this horrifically grooming relationship. And I give a 30 day notice to leave. And let's just say he made it hell.

But when I left, I was sat down by the two leaders. One leader had left to go get healthy, which was wonderful. There was two leaders. And I was told that I was cursed, that when I left, that I was leaving my calling, my anointing, my destiny, that I would never have a fruitful life because it was attached to that ministry.

And I had left without their permission. I was so confused. I have believed it. I actually went home and I just really strongly considered staying, if you can believe that. Because I thought that they knew more than I did and were smarter than me.

And I was just so brainwashed. And it was an intervention with friends that actually caused me to wake up, to see it. And of course, what happened after that is character, assassination, smear campaign.

And I left quietly. I wasn't going to tell anyone. And I kept that for years that that had happened until the person who replaced me ended up in a full relationship. And that was when I decided to come forward as a whistleblower with what had happened to me.

I went to the place over this ministry. And that leader laughed at my story. And I left feeling so defeated. And nothing was going to happen ever with it. And a handful of years later, that leader actually made international news for drug addictions and visiting prostitutes.

And so I guess my story probably wasn't as big as the things he was actually living. That's terrible. Yeah. So I think it's one of those things that I've obviously gone through a lot of healing for.

I'm at a good place in my life. I was just mine in my own business, live in my life, build in business, trying to be kind to people, trying to be generous, all the things.

And when this came on to my play with IHOP, it was kind of like something broken me. Maybe in a good way. I'm just like, you know what, enough is enough. I'm not going to be silent anymore.

I hate that you went through that, but I'm glad that you're speaking out because. The information that you shared with me is just phenomenal. Being able to piece all of this together and understand what it was, documented in such a way that it can help people.

And I'm getting emails from people who are getting help because of the work you're doing. So I strongly recommend that you keep going. I really appreciate it. And I'm certain that everybody who is seeking your help does.

Well, you know, you hear good things and you hear other things apparently I'm a secular humanist now. You know, I never knew what happened. I'm going worse labels than that. I was like, if that's the worst you've got, baby, bring it on.

You know, anyway, it's something that I just can't leave. And I know I said this last time, but you know, from our whole community, thank you so much for the work that you have done and Charles and others.

And I received so many messages after the interview that I did with you that people wanted me to say, you make sure you tell them thank you from us because it's changing our lives.

Like they're connecting dots and you're getting free. So don't you dare edit this out, John. I'm too humble, I can't leave this in. I will try not to edit this out, but I'm glad it's helping people that if it even helps one person, it's worth all of it.

You know, that's what I keep saying to, you know, people are saying, you know, is anyone waking up? No, first of all, hundreds and hundreds of people have left this movement and I'm so thankful.

But I think with a business mind, and I don't know if these statistics apply, I know they do in business. 20% of people are ready to hear what you have to say right away.

60% of people, you can move the needle, right? It's just timing, you know, something comes up where they're ready to hear, they're ready to buy whatever it is. And then 20% of people no matter what you do, they're never, ever, ever going to budge or buy or leave, right?

And I'm assuming when you're in high control environments, when spiritual things are involved, that you're certainly probably, you know, those aren't the, you know, I'm not going to say those aren't the statistics, but I just keep saying my audience is those people in the middle, those people who they haven't had a bad experience yet or their head hasn't popped above the water, they haven't done a Google search to figure out what's going on yet because they haven't been able to.

And, you know, you're leaving quite a breadcrumb trail of truth. And I'm leaving, you know, little teeny morsels myself. And if one person doesn't send their children to something and go through the things I have or go through the things that you have, it's all worth it.

It's all worth it. Indeed. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Branum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Branum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

www.William-Branum.org