Our Stories: An Interview With Michael Sullivant

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org, and today I have my very special guest, Michael Sullivan, pastor, author, speaker, and director of relational networks. Michael, it's so good to have you. We've exchanged several emails talking about the big things that are happening right now in the NAR World, charismatic world. I don't even know how you call this. It's such a strange mess that has developed specifically with international house of prayer and all of

the stuff that's going on there. But anyway, I got connected to you and you seem to be a wealth of information. So I wanted to have you on and talk about that. However, first I thought it would be good just to tell a bit about your story and how you're connected to all of these things.

Yeah, John, thanks for having me on. It's great to meet you in person or sort of in person across the internet. I've appreciated the research that you've done. It's eye-opening and shocking and sad, but it explains things at the same time. So I'll start. I want to tell my testimony a little bit. So my first encounter with God happened when I was six years old, but I didn't know it was an encounter with God until I looked back on it in retrospect. But I was looking up into the stars one night. I was six years old. I was laying on the hood of our family station wagon in Pennsylvania,

beautiful summer night. And I looked up into the stars and suddenly I felt like a speck of dust in the universe and, you know, so insignificant. But inside of me, something large was happening, which was what Paul calls that instinctive awareness of the presence of God, of the reality of God, in the universe. And I kind of crafted a little theology when I was six. There's somebody bigger than me, smarter than me, more powerful than me, who made all of this. And I know I didn't do it.

So I think there's a creator. And I've always embraced that ever since, you know, but I thought you had to die to meet God. So I thought one day I'll die and God will be so glad I died. And show up at his place and you know welcome me into his house. So that was a very immature theology but you know I kind of grew up and as a happy kid my parents stayed together we had a lot of stability in our family and but I kind of developed into my teenage years I by the time I was 16 I was kind of a pseudo

intellectual hippie jock which is a very strange you know combination of forces on a young man's soul but I was exactly very lost and my older brother came to faith in Jesus and went to this Baptist church where a lot of young people would come into faith and he challenged me to come to this church and so I did and I sat in their pew and I had a culture shock because it was it was a group of people that were pretending like they really enjoyed being a church so I'd never been to a church like that where people seemed to be glad to be

there but they were and I had an encounter with the Holy Spirit while I was sitting in the pew of the Baptist church while this guy was talking out of Romans chapter 10 and I heard an internal audible kind of voice that spoke to me and it was a conviction experience I didn't come to faith but boy I knew that I was not okay after that experience so so that was at 16 and I tried to run away from that experience because it was very vivid and so two years later after trying to run away from God for two years I like to say he caught up to me

because I was very convicted of the you know messed up insides of my life outside things were going fine but inside I was not a happy person and I was under conviction you know it's what the Puritans call the enlightened sinner I was the enlightened sinner and I just under conviction and so I finally ran out of gas and I prayed this prayer I wasn't a religious person I didn't know the Bible I didn't grow up in a Christian home but I prayed this prayer John I said I give up you got me and when I prayed that prayer I experienced visions I

saw two visions and visions for me have been like night dreams only you're not asleep but vivid images and that's happened to me a lot you know through the years but my conversion was catalyzed by these two visions and then I had this very vivid encounter with Christ the presence of Christ and you know when I said I give up you got me he came been. And I had a very distinct experience of sensing Jesus Christ coming into my life and into my heart. You know, I remember when it happened, I said to myself, Oh, I thought

it was a metaphor that Jesus comes into person's life, but I actually had the sensation of Christ coming into my life into my body. And I was weird. And it changed me. It changed me forever. No one had ever told me about grace, but I suddenly realized that I was going to have a greater desire and power to walk with the Lord and be a friend of the Lord's.

Then I ever had, you know, for rebelling against him, which I had been doing for two years. So this changed me forever, John. And that was my, that was my beginning. So I had, I had an experience with the unseen realm, you know, in my conversion experience. And so that kind of set me up to be eager for, you know, the miraculous or some people would say the supernatural side of our faith.

I like the way that you broke it down into its simplicity because growing up in the Brannum cult, I actually had never heard the actual real gospel of Jesus Christ for 37 years of my life. And then my family escaped January 1st, 2012. And we started attending a new church. And when a new church pastor finds out that you were raised in a cult, their perception of use quite different. And so everybody gets in this weird mission to try and go save John who is just escaped a cult. And they start telling me about God and experience. And

this was a, it was a Baptist church. So it wasn't that far different than what I grew up in, but we didn't have a prophet guy in this Baptist church. And they, so I'm, I'm like their fertile new soil to go plant, right? And they start telling me about the experience that, you know, you have, when you have a conversion. And they're describing something I'd already had. So I believed, I knew and believed that while it was in the cult, I was saved by, by all of the standards that they gave me. But I'd never heard the gospel.

And the God that they taught me in the cult wasn't the God that I'm finding is the actual God of the Bible, completely different, two different personalities even. It's not even the same God. So I sat down and I explained to him. I said, look, guys, it's as if the analogy I think I gave, if I remember correctly, it's as if I was born in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp as an American, by American parents. But I'd never experienced America.

Here I was a child and I knew that one day hopefully I would go back and finally I did and found the real America but all I could rely on is what everybody else was telling me was America and my understanding my perception wasn't quite right so my experience happened also you know very basic kind of like you describe but it also happened in the cult and then I escaped and you know the rest of it is history but it's very interesting to hear somebody who has it on simplistic terms because some people try so hard to over complicate it and in doing so they confuse everybody who's trying to find God I was 18 in 1973 when that experience happened to me and I just started to tell people what happened to me you know actually a week after I experienced this conversion a truly a new life a new birth and I didn't know what it was going to imply it was like

signing a blank contract like okay God I'm signing up so fill in the contract you know because I'm I'm on on your team you know or I want to be on your team and so I started to tell people my family members and my best friends what it happened to me and my best friends all just thought I was crazy you know like no and our friendship was lost you know because I became with Jesus follower and they were like not you not a Jesus freak not you you know and I was like yeah I was the lead singer in the rock and roll band that we had and so I could no longer get up on stage and do the antics you know it was just like that's not why I am anymore so that was hard because I I really lost my best friends through my conversion in some ways but I started this I went away to college and I started to share my faith

I was going to say that a week after I came to the Lord I had another encounter with God in my home and I I was walking around my home and I was thank thanking God for my forgiveness because that was the overwhelming awareness that I had like wow I am forgiven for all the ways I deviated you know from my parents way of life and what they taught me you know and I had been a secret center you know in some ways and lied to my parents and those things just bothered me know but when I came to Jesus it was like gone and this weight fell off of me and so I'm walking around my house and I'm praising the Lord but I don't know what to say to him I'm just going wow and thank you those were my three words wow and thank you and sometimes I'd say thank you and then wow you know change the order

but I turn the corner from my kitchen to my dining room And I suddenly felt a wind blow upon me. And there was no open doors or open windows or anything. It was weird.

And as this wind started to blow on me, it went inside of me. At least that was the sense I had, is that it went inside of me. And all of a sudden, I was just filled with this sense of God's presence.

Now I look back on it. I didn't really know it at the time. Except I felt like it was God. This thing that was happening to me. And I heard that same voice that I'd heard in the Baptist church down inside, kind of an internal, audible voice.

They don't be afraid I'm doing something to you. So I just settled down. I just kind of calmed myself and it let this happen. And all of a sudden, I start speaking out in this language I'd never learned before.

Which was really weird because when we were kids, we'd play army and try and talk German or Japanese or something and you couldn't do it. But all of a sudden, I'm speaking out these words I'd never learned before.

And it was an encounter with the Holy Spirit. And I didn't know what it was. But I remember saying to myself, God, before this, I knew you were real. But now, like you're really, really real.

Because something miraculous was happening to me. At least that was my sense. And then I wanted to read the Bible for the first time in my life. So I started reading the Bible. And it was one of those little New Testaments, the Billy Graham Association, we give out Christian life New Testament.

I called it my poor little red New Testament because I just tore the thing up in the first months of my conversion, after my conversion. So I get to the outlines and there's outline of the Bible and Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I get to the Holy Spirit outline and I look and turn to Acts too. There's wind and there's other languages. Oh, that's what happened to me. So it's like, OK, it's in the Bible.

So that was how simple it was for me. And when I started to tell my story to my college classmates, because I went away to college from Detroit, I lived in Detroit. I moved to Miami of Ohio near Cincinnati.

And I just started to meet people for the first time and share my story. And they were interested. And all of a sudden, about 13 of my dorm mates want to come to Christ.

And so we experienced a student revival on our campus between 1973 and 1977 in the years I was there. And I got drafted by God apparently to be a teacher and a church leader, a student church leader.

So you experienced Pentecost without Pentecost? It sounds like. Yeah, you know, I did. And this was happening, you know, in the country, I didn't know that either at the time. I knew it was happening to me, but I didn't know it was happening around the country.

And then we started to hear reports, you know, these young people coming to Jesus in the Jesus movement, you know, was happening. Of course, there's been a movie about that recently of the Jesus movement.

So we got caught up in that, but it wasn't through visiting California or, you know, being associated relationally with any of those catalytic people. So it just was happening sovereignly on our campus. And yeah, so we were praying.

We were reading our Bibles, we were sharing our faith and we were experiencing the nearness of God,

Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And it was all very simple and very genuine. And a lot of those people, those fellow students, men and women, young men and women, back then, are still walking with God, you know, to this day and I'm in touch with a lot of them.

I don't talk much about my personal experiences because, you know, doing what I do, I don't want people to follow me and think that I'm anything special because I'm certainly not, I'm probably the opposite.

But I'll never forget some of the, you brought back memories, some of the feelings that you experienced. One of the ones that really hit me as I was talking to a guy for the podcast, I came to suddenly realize that all through the time of being in the cult, I believed in the Trinity because I knew that there was a God, the Father and I knew that he sent his Holy Spirit.

And so as I'm reading the Bible, because I did read my Bible, I'm reading where God sent the Holy Spirit, you know, and Jesus died and said, I'll be whole, I will send you the Holy Spirit.

He will lead you and guide you. So I believed all of this while I was in the cult. But again, like the Vietnam Prisoner of War camp example, I was told that all Trinitarians believe in three gods and therefore it's wrong.

And so I believe that the Father did send the Holy Spirit but it was one God and I couldn't explain it, which I still, I'm not even gonna try to explain it today but that's what I believe while I was in the cult.

So I had, again, I had a set of experiences that molded my life very similarly. And as you grow older after having such an experience, it changes your perception when you hear speakers say things that aren't quite matching with what you did experience.

And I came to realize over the course of, I don't know how many years after leaving the cult, all along there were things that were just throwing up these red flags for me that something's not right.

Right. You know, it doesn't match what I feel, it doesn't match my heart, and I'm a very logical person. Quite frankly, it didn't match logic. And I thought, I remember having this thought, if God is the God who controls the stars in the universe, kind of like you said, you know, when you looked up at the sky, everything's moving like this big, intricate clock. And we're talking thousands upon, well, millions, probably, of these clocks spinning in perfect harmony. If there's a God that has that level of logic, how in the world did he send this prophet that makes these statements that just don't make sense? They're

not logical. They can't fit within logic. And he asks us to believe that logic and sciences of the devil. And so I had these, these thoughts recurring constantly, well, it was in the recall. And then whenever I escaped, it was just so freeing because, hey, now I can believe logic because logic makes sense. Yeah. There's an ancient concept in theology called the two book theory. And the two book theory is that God has written two books. Don't be shocked, you know, it's not the book of Mormon. It's creation, creation is a book, and it's been compared to that for centuries. And so the God who inscriptured his word in the Bible,

he wrote the Bible through people, but he also wrote the book of creation. And we are commissioned in the Bible to study both. And so I believe with all of my heart that when we stand before God, we're going to realize there is no difference or conflict between true science and true theology. And we're going to look at God and we're going to say, hey, you really were a great scientist after all. And he'll go, thank you very much. Yes. I made all this. And yes, it fits perfectly with scripture. So this is an ancient concept. And it is actually the basis of

scientific inquiry as men and women started to, you know, grow in their faith. They were like, hey, let's look at the stars. Let's look at what God has made. And this is what Romans 1 says, that we can see the power and glory of God through the things that he's made. And so I like you, you know, it's like, hey, science is great. Come on. Yeah. It's important.

After I left the cult for a brief period of time, maybe one or two years, I dove into Christian apologetics, not that I was skilled at it, but I wanted to help out because why would you not?

If you're a Christian, this is what you should do as a Christian. And so the logic and the science and the culture. nation of all of this made me realize just how wrong what we were in was because if there was a question when you're in one of these high demand, cultish groups, they will suppress the question or they will give you a bogus answer that is more confusing than the question itself. They do not want, they do not want the question to exist versus whenever I entered into the apologetics, there were cases where the more skilled apologists would, Christian

apologists would say things like, you know, I'm uncertain in that one particular area, I just don't know, I don't have a good answer, but I believe it because, and they would explain why they believed it, very much like the scientific theory, we see a thing, we see how it's happening, we don't understand how it's happening happening, I can theorize that it is happening because, and then I try to prove my theory, and I was seeing the same thing in Christian apologetics, they, if they did not know the answer, I don't know what it is, but my theory

is this, and then they would try to prove that theory in the course of the conversation. So it was all, you know, for me, it was like the clockwork of the sky, it's just all logic that makes sense. That's beautiful. You know, they call it the fine tuning of the universe, at least in one sector of the apologetics. The universe is so finely tuned for human life to exist. It's just phenomenal, like you look at the odds, what are the odds that we even exist on this little blue planet, and it's, so what they're learning in astrophysics,

actually, there are many, many scientists that are coming to become theists now because of what's been observed and discovered, not only on the astrophysics realm, but in the quantum physics realm, you know, and it's very exciting as a Christian to find out these things that scientists are opening up to becoming theists, because they were kind of taught to be atheists, you know, I like to say there are no born atheists, they evolved, so they evolved out of the pain of human life and the suffering of the world, and that's how people become atheists. I have friends who have escaped the cult that are atheists, and like me, they're

very logical, and one of the reasons why they left Christianity altogether is the version of God, the version of the Bible that was taught to them was so flawed that once they once they snapped out and realized it's a cult, they just completely abandoned it thinking, well, that was God, I don't believe in that God, and I've watched people deconstruct, and many of them have deconstructed and now they're becoming Christian, not all, but somewhere becoming Christian, and I think the problem, the underlying problem is, whatever they had in these, not just the Brannum cult, but any of these

cults that teach a false God, you have to deconstruct the false God before you can construct anything else, and so there's a point in time in which you yourself, as you're deconstructing, you become agnostic or sometimes you feel like you're an atheist.

But it really isn't that. You have just torn down the walls that previously existed. Yeah, there's a lot of deconstruction going on. And like you said, it's a necessary, actually sad, it's a sad state of affairs, but it's necessary because of these false constructs and just skewed theology that messes with people's minds and hearts and souls and relationships.

So some of the deconstructions necessary, it's dangerous, but it's still necessary, it's part of the process. And like you, I've got friends that are deconstructing and have deconstructed, but I think on the other end of the deconstruction is a reconfiguration, that's what I'm calling it, there's a reconfiguration going on in the church world, I'm very in touch with the church world around the world right now, from the work that I do.

And a lot of deconstruction going on, but a lot of reconfiguration is starting to emerge, you know, it's like, oh, maybe there's a better theology, maybe there's a better concept, maybe there's a better way.

And a lot of it comes back to relationships, relational Christianity, you might call it, like a relational reformation, I think, is underfoot, because we've been, our culture, Western culture in particular has been slammed by a lot of dehumanizing forces.

And so I think Jesus came to rehumanize the planet. And that true Christianity is about a rehumanization, where we become truly human, because we've all been, you know, less than what we're called to be.

And Jesus has come, he's the true human, you know, became the famous line, and I think it's in Latin, etcher homo, when Pilate said, behold the man, that went down in history as, you know, it was a painting, the here is the true human, you know, Jesus Christ.

You know, church fathers would say things like, you know, he became like us so that we can become like him. So this is our destiny, you know, to become more and more like Christ. And it's a good central goal, I think, of true spirituality, is we're on the journey to become more and more like Christ. You mentioned the reconfiguration of the church, and it's something that I'm, I actually had some questions about as I'm seeing very similar thing happening.

There are a lot of people who escaped something similar to what we came out of my family. And, you know, one of the first things that hit me after escaping, as I'm reading the Bible, and I get into second Corinthians, and it talks about the super apostles.

and how bad of a thing this is, right? And then I look back at what we were in and compare it to all of the, I'm thinking hundreds, but probably thousands of very similar things where one single figure has become a authority head, a super apostle over his group.

And this creates the authoritarian structure, exactly what second Corinthians was talking about. And there seems to be this wide awakening of people who realize that even without reading that passage, that's just wrong. You don't let a human have this level of control over you.

So I'm curious as to the cause of it, we may never know why, but there seems to be this great tearing down of walls. And in effect, because of the super apostles, there's this tearing down of the idols.

Yeah, that's good. I think that there's kind of a certain type of person that wants an expert to tell us what to do. And I think that makes us vulnerable to exalting human beings above Christ and to form personality cults.

And actually Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians where he says, some say I'm of Peter, some say I'm of Paul, some say I'm of Apollo's, some say I'm of Christ, and he's correcting them for their sectarianism that were forming around the personalities.

So I think this is a very human thing, and I think there are certain kinds of humans, certain wiring of humans that want that more than others do. Just give me the expert, tell me what to do, and I'll do it, and my life will be wonderful.

And so we're susceptible to these people that are willing to get up on those pedestals. And it's a problem, it's always been a problem, but I think in our culture in the Western world, we've become a celebrity culture.

We're just inundated with celebrity and people fantasize about becoming celebrities. And so this is an idolatrous, it's a relational idolatry that's just another idol. You know, old fashioned idol, but now it's in the form of a personality cult.

And so we have to, we have to see this and recognize how unhealthy this is. And from the opposite hand, from the people who are the followers of such, one person escaped and they asked me, what were we all just, and he used the word stupid, so I'm gonna use it like he said, where we all just stupid, why do we join this thing?

And it was the first time I really thought about it because I, myself, consider, I'm not- the most intelligent man, but I consider myself to be somewhat intelligent yet I was in this thing and I was in it for 37 years. And I got to thinking about the people who were in my support group while I was in the cult. We had doctors, lawyers, people with masters degree, IT people. And I came to realize that myself as the example, but I'm certain it was the others too, the people that are more intelligent who work daily with their mind. On the weekends as they're decompressing,

they, you go to church and you shut your critical thought off because here's a place where it's using the word Jesus. And so I can trust it. And because they use the word Jesus and throw it out left and right, the people just go in, they shut off their critical thought. And whatever is said, they just take it all in. So my answer after I thought about it was, well, no, sometimes the more intelligent people are more susceptible to this type of thing, just because of that. Now, very interesting. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,

or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brandham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. So I'm just thinking, I'm thinking about also

certain kinds of leaders who are very savvy. You know, they're gifted orators a lot of times. They're smart, you know, in terms of their IQ. They have a very high IQ. And sometimes they have a very high EQ as well, and they use that to draw people away to themselves. And this is what Paul warned the Ephesian elders in Acts 20. He said, there's going to be wolves among you that dries up to draw disciples after themselves. And so I think that because we've been blinded by the celebrity culture, we kind of allow this. And we actually sometimes promote the celebrity kind

of personality to be our leaders, you know, because they're good at speaking. They're smart, they seem to be able to read people, and they sometimes have apparent giftings. And this is where I was vulnerable, because as a young Christian leader on campus, we started to become aware of some of these celebrity teachers in the body of Christ.

And they were great speakers, and they could captivate crowds, you know? And then there were stories of the power of the Holy Spirit that would work through them. And so you're just kind of, your guard is down, and it's like we want the power of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, we want God to do marvelous things in the world. And this was the charismatic movement, and I was a part of that. And so because we were eager to see God do marvelous things in the world, and we hear reports of God doing marvelous things, then we start to get kind of overly eager for miracles to happen.

And I think this has been a problem in the charismatic world, is in because we know God can do miracles, there are teachers that start to formulate how to get a miracle. And it becomes a formula, and you actually start demanding God to do miracles.

And it's a very subtle, gradual shift that happens for people like me. And so I did, you know, I got aligned with charismatic teachers, and actually the man that ordained me was William Brandham's Bible teacher for 10 years in his crew, in his campaigns that he did.

He was a well-known Bible teacher in the charismatic movement. And when he told us about William Brandham a little bit, but we heard a myth about William Brandham, the charismatic leaders in my generation heard a myth about William Brandham.

And the myth was that he was a genuine prophet who in his later years got off track. And so we've kind of distanced ourselves from him. He had false, some false teaching, but he had a genuine, holy spirit gift in his life.

And so that was what we were told, and we didn't have reason to doubt those reports. So as a result, we didn't follow William Brandham, although some of the students at my university got into a little Brandham cult, and they tried to beckon us to follow them, and we didn't, because it's like, no, we think he's got off.

But the spiritual leaders that I came to know and be associated with who knew him, their story was that he was a genuine gifted person, but he got off track. And so we've kind of distance ourselves from his teaching.

And we don't follow him or listen to him anymore. So stay away from him. That was kind of a myth that we heard. And now your research comes out and it makes sense to me what you've uncovered is like, oh my gosh. I mean, we had no idea he was associated with white supremacy and the KKK and some of the death cults that formed in the abusive cults that came out of that. It's just like, and then to discover that there were fraud, because we always thought it was a genuine miraculous power at work in him, but he messed it up. So yeah, that was

the myth that we were taught. And most of the charismatic leaders in the body of Christ, and I know a lot of them. That's kind of the story that's been told about Brannum. It's interesting you say that because all of the things that you see on my website, my blog, all of this began January of 2012 because I was trying to prove William Brannum to be a prophet. I knew something was wrong. I knew that it had turned into a cult. I couldn't really, at that time, I could not use the word cult. I was offended by it. So back in 2012, I did not, but tried to prove it correct. And I want to say

within the course of two weeks, and mainly just examining Brannum's sermons, the transcripts themselves. There were other things out there, obviously, but I didn't, at that point in time, I didn't trust anything because I had just left a cult. So I mainly just looked at what he had to say himself, William Brannum. And I left after about, I don't know, it's probably a week. After about a week, I thought, you know, he was a prophet, but I can see clearly where one of his prophecies has failed because he himself admits it has failed. And I was so conditioned to think it's okay if a

prophet has a false prophecy because I'm in this group with all of these false prophecies. So at that point of time, you know, one week, I'm still thinking, well, he was a prophet of God who, like you said, he just went astray towards the end. And it didn't take long. I want to say, it was within three weeks, just three weeks of my spare time digging into what the man had to say.

I came to the conclusion, no, this man was lying from day one about all of these things. I know some very shady people. I've encountered very, very shady people in my life. And the one thing a shady person does.

is if you ask them anything about themselves, they're gonna give you five different answers. If you ask five times. If you ask 10 times, there's 10 different answers. And I started noticing in these quote-unquote life stories, well his answers keep changing about himself.

That's what a shady person does. So I started digging and like I say, approximately three weeks, I came to the conclusion that no, this man was not honest at all from the beginning. And then the thought hit me.

I had read the stories by people who used the name William Brannum, there's big names out there that will say William Brannum was a true man of God. And he had all of these prophecies and they happened.

And therefore send me your money because I'm the new super apostle, whatever it is. And I started realizing those same men, many of them were with William Brannum when he made these statements. So they heard him say five different things about himself that can't be coherent.

They can't go together. And I began to realize some of these men themselves, either they just have poor memories, which may be the case, but I think some of them truly knew that this whole thing was false, but there was so much money in it.

What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think that not only the money, but the identity, I am on the team. And so I can't afford for this to be known as fraudulent. The price tag becomes too high.

And actually the cost grows, the longer you're engaged. So it's really difficult because you've built your career around that association. And William Brannum type was the catalyst for my career to get where it is.

And yeah, you become dependent on the income. And they made a lot of money. Oh my gosh. When you get the testimonies of the miraculous woven in to the ministry, then the money starts pouring in.

And so it's very tempting to fabricate. And I've known gifted people, people with genuine gifts in the spirit, operating through them, who through the course of time became trapped because they made a career out of the miraculous.

And I just don't think God cooperates with that agenda. And you know, when you look at, if you come to Jeffersonville and you see the church, it's this little tiny building, you would never picture masses of, I mean, we're talking millions of dollars that float through this thing over the years, but if not billions.

And you go to his house and it's this little tiny house and you think, well, this was such a poor man. My family, I can't talk about it, but my family knew some of, the stories about the money.

And I'll just leave it at that. There was more money than met the eye. But to the public, you know, you look at this and you think, well, this is a humble man. And William Brandham's daughter sent out a letter saying that when he died, he had, I think it was like $3 million, which back in 1965 was, oh my gosh, that's a lot of money, right?

A lot of money. And that's just the money that they had in the bank account. You know, they're, again, there's more to the money story, which I'll let that go. But the perception that they present, they they spend it in such a way that give me your money because I need it, I'm needy.

And I'm going to use it for X, Y, and Z, which they do, but you find out that just a small percentage goes towards whatever is the cause. And we find these guys are, you know, Brandham himself mentioned he had a long guy in his watch, I think the way you pronounce it, these watches today are $10,000.

So back in the 40s, man, this guy, this guy had a more expensive watch than I'll ever own. So, but like you said, people got connected to it, and then they built their ministries.

And at that point, it almost becomes like a religious organized crime, because you can't rat out the one guy, because you rat out him, well, he's the reason my ministry exists. So now you've got this, all of these people in collaboration, trying to lift up the dead guy.

And that, for me, that's the most confusing part, because as a Christian, you really can't do this. So then my next question comes, these men who are doing it, and knowingly doing it in the wrong, can we even call them Christian?

Yeah, a great question. You know, I want to read a little passage here. First Corinthians 13, very interesting, because the Corinthians Paul told the Corinthians in chapter one that their gifts were genuine, but he also pointed out that their gifts were not being used properly.

They were being abused and misused. And so the purpose for the gifts was not being accomplished because of the way that they were carrying those gifts. So I think that there are genuine gifted people who are eccentric and off track and off center, but the gifts are genuine.

And so this is what Paul refers to actually. He says, this is an amazing statement that I think my charismatic friends out there and leaders need to read again, and just let it soak in.

He says, if I speak with the tongues of men and angels but have not love, I'm a noisy gong or a clanging symbol. And if I have prophetic powers, this is the ESV, if I have prophetic powers, and that's what Brannum claimed to have, right?

And understand all mysteries and all knowledge. And if I have all faith. So as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. So that's amazing that these kinds of gifts that God bestows are not used properly because love is not the motivation, and love is not the goal.

And the work I'm doing now in ministry is very much centered around what love looks like. What does love look like for the Christian? And then he says this, this is interesting too. And if I give away all I have and deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

So you can have the height of power when it comes to the spiritual gifts, and you can have the height of sacrifice to where you give all your goods away, and at least you have this image of being generous, and to be sacrificial, but not have love.

And so this is the problem in many, many, many of the wings of the charismatic movement of our day, what's developed over the last 50 years is we've got people that move in the gifts, and we've got people that look so sacrificial.

But the love is not present, and that's where we've got to come back to and say, what does love look like, and that's our target, you know, that's our bullseye. You know the one that I always go back to is Colossians too, also in the ESV.

The first time I read that, and I'm out of the cult, you know, I knew some of these other ministries existed. I did not know how many of them there were, but you can read the voice of healing magazines and you can, I think the full gospel businessmen even have some of their recordings up.

You had, I don't know how many hundreds of guys who said, I see an angel, and an angel told me this, and an angel told me that, and I read Colossians 2.18 in the ESV, it says, let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism, which I had, I didn't know what that word meant.

I had to look it up. Insisting on asceticism, which is a very, very rigid set of rules that earn your way into heaven is what that phrase comes out to, or that word comes out to you.

Insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind. I read that, I was floored because not only did it describe William Brannum and the entire ministry to the letter, it described his whole ministry to the letter, I started reading evangelists after evangelists in the same movement, they're all can fit within that same framework.

And this Alvation question came up, but then after I realized that the thought hit me, we'll have many of them work, Christian. Yeah, and it actually ends there in Colossians 2, and these things are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

And so then you've got this weird sexual deviation going on with people that are so spiritual, quote, and so dedicated to fasting and prayer and things like this. But Paul says it's of no value against fleshly indulgence, which is usually a, you know, key word for sexual immorality.

So, yeah, we've got that happening too in the church world. And I think some of these leaders, they kind of bargain with God. You know, they are very dedicated to their religious rituals, but they're bargaining with God.

Oh, God, maybe then you'll be okay if I just dabble over here and give some room for my flesh, make a provision for my flesh. And it's a real dichotomy. It seems unbelievable when you run into it.

You know, we're running into it here in Kansas City right now with a situation. So anyway, coming back to the people that they have genuine gifts. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about those genuine gifts, but you can be off center, have genuine gifts and be off center, and it amounts to nothing.

And so that's a been a problem in the wings of the church that I've associated with through the decades. But then you've got Matthew 7. And this is even more serious where Jesus is warning us about false prophets.

And you know, sometimes when we hear the word false prophet, I think a lot of times we go, you know, the boogeyman false prophet, but actually, you know, there's some, you know, people that seem okay that are actually turned out to be false prophets.

You know, it's like, you don't have to heighten it so much. It's like, okay, there's some bad stuff out there. And he says that, you know, you're going to know them by the fruit, which means I think that you're not necessarily going to know on the front end.

But you have to watch over a period of time. Is this person genuine? What's the fruit of their life and what's the fruit of their ministry? And then he says this, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.

On that day, many will say to me, many will say, Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy? Didn't we cast out demons? Didn't we do many mighty works in your name? So they were professed Christians, but they're categorized here by Jesus as false prophets.

And, you know, I think we got to read that passage again too. There are people... that seemed to be able to traffic in some divine power that is not actually genuine, it's a counterfeit.

And this is an anomaly, it's actually in the Bible, you know, you've got people like Dailyam, you know, that traffic in prophecy, and he spoke true prophecy, but he was a Suthsayer. So there's some mysterious nuances here in this theology of the miraculous side of our faith, and it makes people like me, because I was born into the kingdom of God through a miraculous encounter.

It makes us vulnerable to people that say, the power of God is with me, and you can have more of the power of God if you follow me. And sometimes it's not even bargaining with God on the asceticism stuff, it's not bargaining with God for getting into heaven, it's bargaining with God to get more power for your ministry.

And there's a famous book about the atomic power of God, right, by this old Pentecostal guy who was like fasting to extremes, right, and you get the power of God. Franklin Hall, there you go.

Yeah, I read it many years ago. And it doesn't number on you, it doesn't number on your psyche. And it trims your belly if you do it enough. Yeah, exactly, right. And I've noticed people that are extremely disciplined and they give themselves to extreme disciplines, but a lot of times what happens is it suppresses human need and it's like trying to keep a life preserver under the water.

It's like it's gonna pop up somewhere, and that happens to them. And it's just like their human needs are not been met and they're crying out down inside and they've gotta have some kind of relief.

And that's when they compromise and do extreme things to satisfy their flesh. You know, we could talk for the next five hours on all the messes that have been created by this movement and all of its splinter groups, but you know, it really comes down to this.

If you could give any encouragement to help the people who are going through what's happening right now in Kansas City and not just there, but all of the similar things that are happening around the world, what would you say to them?

I think I would say a couple of things. One is, but you know, I'm thinking of Bible passages. Second Timothy one seven, God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.

And so that's the Holy Spirit, you know? He is not a spirit of fear. He is a spirit of power, love and a sound mind, all three. And we want to move in all three streams of...

Holy Spirit's personhood and ministry, power, love, and sound mind, which I think the best translation for that word in the Greek is mental health. So we see a lot of Christians that are struggling with mental health issues and the Holy Spirit is a spirit of mental health.

So let's get all of those graces flowing together in our relationship with God. The other passage I'm thinking of is 2 Corinthians 111 where Paul says that he's concerned that the Christians are going to be led astray by the devil because they're losing their simplicity, the simplicity and purity of their devotion to Jesus.

So we've got a lot of Christians out there who are eager for God to do marvelous things, but they're trying to become super Christians. And I think that we should be just in awe and marvel that we are Christians.

We are just Christians and that we have such a Savior. We have such a beautiful Lord. He's done the heavy lifting and it's not so complicated. And so let's not strive to try to become more awesome than what's already happened to us because what's happened to us is awesome.

So we have to, it's that celebrity thing. I need to become a celebrity somehow. I need to become more wealthy somehow. I need to become well, more well-known, you know, and it's just a, it's a vain pursuit.

And so I encourage Christians just to relax a little bit. Don't take themselves so seriously. You can still take God seriously without taking yourself so seriously and and fall back into his grace and just say, I'm saved.

I'm, I'm a child of God. How marvelous. Now let's get on with living a life of love. And that and and that's what I would end by saying is let's come back to the center, which is what does love look like every day?

What does it look like to love God and what does it look like to love people? And nobody's going to do it perfectly, but we can still do it substantially even though we don't do it perfectly.

The entire law and the prophets are summed up in love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Yep. I think that's the perfect answer. Well, thank you for doing this with me. I really thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm sure our listeners are going to also enjoy hearing the things that you have to say and the encouragement.

So thank you so much for doing this. John, thank you for having me on. It's a blessing to know you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org for an overview of the historical Research of William Brannum in the Healing Revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William Brannum and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.