Our Stories: Escaping IHOP - An Interview With Brantley Smith

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-branham.org. And with me, I have my very special guest, Brantley Smith, graduate of IHOPU. Brantley, it's good to have you on here and to the audience who can't see it. This is the second time in a row I've had Brantley on because I accidentally forget to hit record right before this. Embarrassing for me, but the second time is always better than the first, so I'm glad you're doing. I'm glad we're going through this.

We're going through this the second time, but so it'd be good if everybody could get to know you a little bit more, so maybe if you could tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, so my name's Brantley and I live out in Virginia Beach, Virginia. I've got a wife and two kids, 33 years old now. I have grown up in environments. I guess that most people here would recognize as NAR type environments. My extended family, grew up to my great-granddad, were holiness, pinocostle people, so I never saw my grandmother in anything but a dress, and like no makeup or earrings or anything like that until the Brownsville revival in the 90s, then that's whenever she found her freedom, she said. It had a very legalistic kind of upbringing and then started leading worship in church when I was 14 years old. So I've been doing that and

still doing that, working at a church here in Virginia Beach, doing some worship stuff, and ended up going to the house of prayer when I was 17 years old and still trying to figure out how to live life after all that. So what's so good to have you on here to talk about IHOP and we have a lot of history and common based on the things that we discussed previously and even though you did not, you were not born and raised in IHOP and came into that specific cult later, I'm certain that prior to this you shared some of the themes that I can relate to in my time in

the Brannum cult and the Brannum religion. We were talking about how some of the eschatology, for example, was very similar to what Brannum had and these things These themes are very common among all of the religions.

And I recently, I've got to pull my monitor right now, a photograph that somebody sent me of a revival that was held with William Brannum and Nathaniel Urshin, which will blow people's minds, right?

Because a lot of this history has been covered up. But as you go back and you start to untangle all of these roots that were tracing not directly, not ending with Brannum, but through Brannum into other movements.

He was like the central hub. You start to realize that themes of theology just kind of flowed through all of these groups. Yeah, I'm surprised. I'm so grateful for all your podcasts and stuff that you're doing, John, because I was unaware of all the different crossover points.

Even before we get to the big one of Paul Cain and I hop, like even like Amy Simple McPherson had no idea that she was involved with these people. She was in a total different world.

Had conversations with people about John G. Lake and some of these other guys. The God's Generals, I think your audience is familiar with that term that were idolized and stuff. And just had no idea that there was so much cross-pollination between these movements.

And I joked with you, you know, off air that you've kind of brought out my conspiracy theorist that the cult put in me to begin with. You've got to brought that back out. I had to kill that.

Now it's showing a Ted again. And I'm like, what are these guys up to? But the Paul Cain connection for me was huge because I knew nothing about Paul Cain's life prior to him being a Kansas City prophet.

Didn't know he had a life prior to that, to be honest. I was sharing with you earlier that I got to I hop. I was there from 2008 to 2012. And Paul Cain was there physically present on I hop property pretty much the entire time that I was there.

And I had no clue. He had his public fall from grace, I guess his final one, in 2006, somewhere in that ballpark. And they had him hold up there on Shiloh property. Their little retreat property had a little house out there.

And they did their best to keep him there to make sure he wasn't doing anything too crazy. But I don't think they were too successful at that. But we always heard stories about I hop's drinking policy.

So I hop used to, which me growing up, Paul Cain has been a coastal alcohol was always a no-no. Like it wasn't. The only time he was accepted and still accepted in my granddad's house is cough syrup.

That's what we call it, which is just moonshine and some honey and some other stuff. But there's an exception for that little wine for the stomach. But I get to I hop, there's no drinking policy.

And I found out just like in this past year, he was talking with friends and hearing behind the scene stories and stuff, the big reason there was alcohol they had was because Paul Cain was doing crazy stuff as an alcoholic.

They're on the mission space and get other people to drink. And it just got out of hand. And so it's... Crazy, just how connected these worlds are.

Whenever it comes to minipower and politics and all that stuff too, it's insane. Yeah, it's shocking. You know, I grew up in a different cult, but you know, it was, you might consider the grandfather to the IHOP in certain ways.

And the alcohol thing, I'll never forget, after I had left this cult, I think I've talked about this before, but I had severe depression, especially after leaving. I was, you and I talked about this a bit too.

I was, I was nearly crippled with it, the depression from leaving. And there was a buildup of depression right before leaving. And I'll never forget, I was working with a client down in Atlanta.

And a lady, we were at this fancy, I think it was a Regency Hyatt, and they had nothing but top shelf liquor. And when the waitress or waiter came around your table, it wasn't water that they poured in.

They poured very, very expensive wine. And I'm like, I'm thirsty, what do I drink? I can't drink this stuff. But yet at the same time, I no longer believed it was wrong. I had studied enough to know that it's not, it's not the way we were taught.

And long story short, I tried just to sip off of the wine after a lot of peer pressure. And my depression felt like needles going in and out of my head at all times.

And that night, after just, and I seriously, it wasn't much more than a table spinning or two. But the pressure left and the anxiety, it was just enough to cut a little bit of the anxiety.

And so I came back home and I started drinking just a glass. And it tasted, it tasted to me like cat pee smell. It was something. But I would take a, I would take like sprite and I would mix it in there and I would drink, long story short, after about three months, I was actually able to come off of depression meds because the, it was cutting the anxiety and, you know, that and healing from leaving a cult.

So all things together, like the Bible said, take a little wine for your stomach. Well, for me, it was take a little wine for your head and it worked. Yeah, yeah, that my crazy era, you know, people have their wild oats, eras, I've been pretty straight lace being in the environment to have my whole life.

But my first time smoking and my first time drinking alcohol was all at IHOP. And so I'm thankful for those friends who helped me broaden my boundaries there a little bit. I remember that the first time I ever tried alcohol was at a small group, then we did communion and they used real wine.

And I remember being so, but it was a, why it was really sweet. So we took it and then we were asking for more afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, and the random churches they preached against, we're drinking wine was sinful and the random churches.

But for communion, they gave you, line. So it's like this, what am I doing? My sinning or am I not? So they're just the primary dealer. Yeah. But yeah, you talk about Paul Kane and it's just so shocking to me the the fact that whenever I look at these groups and I had no idea how close they were, but I was watching I hop from a distance before the big explosions that happened a few years ago. And I'm looking at the similarity and I'm thinking, well, wait a minute, that looks really like the cult we

escaped, but they don't believe the same thing. That's what I thought. And it wasn't until I I believe it was a it was one of the articles on Todd Bentley. They're going into the manifested sons of God and the Joel's army. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is Brannemism 101 where they get it and I found Paul Kane's name. And you know, all the pieces started tumbling together. And from what I understand, Paul Kane, not just with I hop, but several of the other big names and I won't mention them, but he he helped to establish a lot of the theology that came across the NAR

networks. And you know, again, that's Brannemism 101 that he's teaching them. Yeah, Paul Kane, that that's how I ended up finding I hop is at our church. They were they were cleaning out a closet. It was full of old tapes. We had a staff member that had left and it was stuff that he had stashed in there. And he was a real big prayer guy doing prayer meetings at our church and stuff. And I found this tape on this table that was set up of free stuff for people to take. It was a tape of Paul Kane and Mike Bickle. And I must have known something about Mike at that

point. Maybe I had come across passion for Jesus and stuff at that point. I can't remember exactly how the timeline played out, but I'd read Mike's book and they'd encountered some of the music and it's somewhere along the lines. They they were pioneers and that they had their live stream going before, you know, even like Twitch and some of the stuff that we have now that makes streaming so accessible. You could pay, I think it was like 10, 20 bucks a month and I would use my own money. I worked at a grocery store in high school and I would pay the subscription to

listen to the prayer room. But like one of the things that really hooked me was I found this tape of Paul and Mike. And they were talking about Paul's I see stadiums visions as what it was, which opens up. I guess it's all a arrowhead stadium the way he describes it in Kansas City.

And there's reporters all lined up and they're all saying that there's nothing, no news, but good news today to report. And they start laying out this huge picture of what's going on that blot, that the sicker being killed and the dead are being raised. And it's being led by this group of nameless, faceless people who are coming and they're, they're, I can't remember the exact details, but they're ministering in shifts and it was something like they were going three days or 72 hours, something like that without food and water. And then they would come in another team of nameless,

faceless people would replace them and and I'm listening to this. I just started driving at the time and had a tape, oh, we had a tape player, this was probably like 2004 or five, something like that. And listen to that whole tape that day, I remember sitting in my driveway, and I was crying as I was listening to it, because in our previous conversation, we were talking about, you know, it's not just like one day somebody walks up to you and asks you to join a call, and you say, yes, it's like the stuff that had been like implanted in my heart and the way that

I'm wired had set me up for that moment to say yes, it wasn't like there was, there was some soft sales before the hard sell, and that was one of those moments that I was just like, man, this is what I want to do as a young 14 year old worship leader. I was like, man, I want to have this kind of impact, because the only other like grandiose thing that I could compare to was like being a Chris Tomlin or something like that, and doing music festivals doesn't sound half as cool as like seeing dead people come to life, and people being killed, and you know, national media

reporting it, and part of it, they were like the sporting events have all been canceled, because stadiums across America are filled, and I'm like, I want to be a part of that. And that started a deep dark hole. I can imagine, you know, I'm a Kansas City chiefs fan, so I would actually be sad. I would rather watch the chiefs game. And I've been a chiefs fan since before it was cool to be a chiefs fan. It wasn't that you were hoping for the revival after they won the Super Bowl.

That's one of the best. I certainly was not. That's what the jokes we have is the anxiety that happens. Every time the chiefs go to the Super Bowl, and they win all of us in the post-i-hop community, we have this anxiety of like, oh no, is it all true? Like are we going to find out that all this was true, and revival's actually going to happen? We all have slight panics.

Yeah, they set these things up, and in such a way that they're they're recurring fears. We have, so in the random cult, it was from the 40s, 50s, and 60s. You had the communist scare.

You had all of the things that just wreaked havoc on people's minds in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. We lived in the 2000s, 2024s. They're still teaching this. And so, and there were certain key quote-unquote prophecies that we would look for. And one of them was that a female would become president.

Well, you have a 50-50 chance, right? So, anytime there's a woman who is running for president, all of the, you know, all the preachers are going on and on. And right now, Kamala Harris is the big thing. She's the, she's going to fulfill the anti-Christ when I was in IHOP. So, that's what was going to happen. It's just so, they wreaked havoc with your mind. And they like to, we were talking earlier, they like to take things that can toy with your mind and set it up in such a way where they put you in an elitist category. You mentioned looking forward to the people

who were going to be dying because... is it creates this mentality where you just want to see it. They've painted this picture of this fantastic war scene and you want to see it. When Brannemism, it was, they were called cannon fodder.

And some of the cannon fodder, which that phrase means in war, these are the people that we don't care if they're going to die or not. They're the cannon fodder. Some of those cannon fodder people would be Christians.

And you look back and you think, what in the world, even if that were true, if that were to be the case, why would you preach about it? This is something that should sadden you.

It shouldn't bring you to a state of happiness. Yeah, and that was the first night that I went to IHA. My parents drove me to Kansas City. I'm a 17 years old. I graduated high school year early to come and go to the ministry school.

And we walk in that first night in the prayer room and they're having their weekend service there. Mike's preaching from Isaiah, talking about who is this coming up from Eden with garment stained red.

And then he's talking about revelation and blood up to the horse's bridal. And he's talking about Jesus slaying the kings of the earth. And I think that should have been my first sign that something was off.

And even my parents sit there and listen to it. And they're like, this is weird, but they really liked the music too. So they were okay right after Mike finished preaching. There was this song and I look back at it.

And it's weird because I have good memories with this song, but I also realized I'm like, man, that's part of the reason why I stayed is this song. But there is this song called finally found where I belong is what it was called.

And the chorus was a finally found where I belong, a finally found where I belong is to be with you. And it's like you get a bunch of kids singing that in a prayer room and there's messaging all around this that this is where God wants you to be.

And you can't leave or you're going to fall away. Like it was, you know, we were right for the picking there to go into that. And one of the things I had mentioned to you earlier was with the eschatology, it was just so comical.

We would always have these Q and A's. We call them, they call them E12's at one point that was like some kind of in time groups is what they were. And we would, we even did these with our, the kids that would come for our summer awakening teen camps.

So these are like 10 to 18 year olds that we would come in and us being, you know, 27 year olds would come here and indoctrinate these kids about Mike's eschatology. And I was laughing because one of the most common questions that all the guys like to ask was, do we get to kill people too?

And we didn't see any harm in it. Like we see Jesus killing people. So we're like, why can't we kill people too? And it's so funny because we're so quick to point the finger at like other extremists and other religions and stuff.

And then here we are, smiley white guy, you know, going, do I get to kill people too? And for some reason it's not as bad. I don't get it, but you know, here we are.

Well, some of the, some of the redneck churches down south, I can picture names of people who'd be like, yeah, give me the gun. It's just, it's scary. It's, you know, I'm like, I think at the absurdity, it's a horrific thing, but it's scary what they teach you.

They indoctrinate you in such a way that they can control you to the point where you would gladly do these things. And that's, you look at Islam and people paint all of Islam with the same brush, but they're Islam and they're Islamic extremists.

And what you're essentially doing is you're creating Christian extremists when you do this, whether they've acted out or not. You know, beyond the point, but you mentioned Isaiah and one of the things that really shocked me once I became aware of what was going on in these churches, the Christian identity, British-Israelism framework, what it did was it created this thing where you could take a single passage out of the Old Testament and then you could marry it with a passage from the New Testament, both of them ripped out of context.

And then they could point it to something that's happening today. And usually these guys, these cult leaders, they will talk about the Old Testament prophets said such and such and they will paint this story in your mind where you can relate every single thing that he is saying, doing, living, the way he lives, directly to that prophet.

So you're thinking that prophet is, oh, is it the same? Is it the same? Then they do the same thing with the apostles and the apostles are pointing at Jesus, but then they twist it such that the thing that's supposed to be pointed at Jesus is pointing towards them, their ministry, their whatever their movement is doing.

And once I realized what this was, it's just so wrong, it's not even, you know, there's the phrase extra biblical or anti-biblical, it's not even that. It's like they've weaponized phrases of the Bible to program heads to make them willing, like you said, willing to kill people.

That is scary. No, it really is. And you buy a hookline and sinker. It's crazy because like we became apologists for the movement too in the sense that like all these crazy things like what Jesus killing people, like they would look at Philippians and say, well, every knee's gonna bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and those who don't, or they're gonna get the chopping block kind of thing.

And it's like, well, it said every knee would bow and every tongue confess, but somehow there's resistors or like, and those were categories that they would create resistors and reprobate and like all these different things.

And it was always just kind of creating some kind of new bookie man is what it was. And so like the great falling away was, you know, one of the big things that were hung over our head and Mike would talk about all the time, he would say, I see people come in and hear all the time, come in for six months or a couple of years to do the school.

then they go and they fizzle out. He never would say that they're not Christians anymore or he would never say anything like that. He would just use metaphors like that. They just go and fizzle out or they lost their purpose or whatever it might be.

They're not a part of God's plan anymore. And he would exalt these people who's like the people that do it decades. He's like some people last 10 years and burn out. They don't make it, you know?

He's like, but God's looking for those who are in it for their whole life. And you have that stuff like touted in front of you and that's what keeps you in it day after day.

And I had many moments where, you know, I thought that I was gonna get out having conversations with people. I was sharing one with you earlier where I had a worship team coach who pulled me aside.

He caught wind that I was playing on leaving after my first year of school. And he says, really, like, what do you do? And like, what's your plan? He said, you're gonna go home, like, what's your plan?

What are you gonna do when you go back home? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, go help out my youth bastard at my church. Like that was the best idea that I had as an 18-year-old.

And he tells me, you know, I wish I could tell a lot of these people to go home and quit doing this because they're wasting their time kind of thing. Like they're, you know, they don't need to be doing this.

And he's like, but you, he's like, you're gonna be doing this for the rest of your life. Here in a worship leader that I looked up to and idolized, say that just meant so much to me.

And kept me in it. kept me in it. And there was so many moments like that where I had moments where I was trying to pull away and there would be some kind of exhortation again.

And it never was, I think sometimes people, they think about a cult and they think of, you know, men dressed in black and white vans pulling you back to the place. And I hopped wasn't like that.

It wasn't that. It was your friend telling you, your roommate telling you, hey, don't give up, don't quit. And I don't think any of them were being nefarious. It was just the mind control that was happening to the masses.

Like they brainwashed us all. And we were keeping each other in the fire is what was happening. And I think it's one of the reasons why it was so hard to look at it and call it damaging.

And, you know, with Mike's allegations coming forward of all this sexual abuse of minors and other women and things. And I think that helped people be able to go, okay, it's a cult because they're sex involved kind of thing.

Which was good for people to be able to do that, to be able to take that step. Like I guess that's a positive that's came from that. But I've had to, you know, you talked about Stephen Hassan earlier.

And one of my favorite things is bite model that he does, the behavior control and information control and thought control and was emotional control. And like being able to like filter all my experiences through that now, now I can give it a name.

And that's like so much of the work of like healing has been able to name stuff and articulate stuff and hear people say stuff and go, oh, I experienced that too, you know. Yeah, I remember when I read Dr. Hassan's combating cult mind control the first time.

I was out of the cult when I read it and I read it and I thought man this is so far out there It's not even close to what we escaped and I've read it multiple times now and at this point I've analyzed a lot of a lot of what we You're glitched. Are you your videos still there? I think so. Is it working now? Yeah, it's working now Yeah, I'll never forget when I read Dr. Hesson's book combating cult mind control the first time I thought man this is so far out there. This is not even close to what we came out of and I was out of the cult at that time

And it wasn't until I've read it multiple times now, but it wasn't until I understood the concept support He was trying to say it isn't that all cults are alike, but they have a very similar framework And they like to tell phrases like the great falling away for example There's going to be a great falling away Well, this is a good way to control the people because when you see somebody leave Oh, they're part of the falling away. They're of the bad guys And it's a good way to turn you know Christians against their brothers too because

Sometimes a Christian person decides to leave a church, but in these cults, they're they're part of the great falling away The phrase that Branemism uses they went out from us because they were not of us and So You know, it's so wrong when you apply that to another Christian person and um They the the thing that the media has done You mentioned, you know, it wasn't obvious until the sexual connections The media has done a disservice I think to the cults because they always show only the extremes Yes, there's a sexual crime committed. So this is an extreme. This is an example of a cult or

Mass suicide, whatever it is But there is a slow progression that builds up to that climactic moment and They another thing is a lot of a lot of times the media will paint the picture of people who join a cult as being unintelligent and You know that there may be some people who are in a cult, but by and large the people who are intellectual or sometimes more susceptible To joining a cult Because they you know, they've worked with their minds all week long They come into church on Sunday and they really just want to rest and shut

Shut off the outside world and so they unfortunately they just disabled their critical thinking And so the pastors will start preaching and they will In these cult groups, they'll You know, they'll bring it down to an elementary level and they'll put out simple just crazy stupid things like We in Branemism there was the Fives the sevens and the threes and if you could and sometimes shapes too if it was a pyramid it was obviously spiritual And so they would break it down to these elementary level when you shut off your critical thinking You're looking for these puzzle pieces that build into these broader pictures that they're painting and oh, well

That's a seven I can see seven in that category. Bramham had Bramham said he had five angels and five spilled R-A-C-E and everybody's oh

Come on man, I just want to know what kind of trip Bob Jones was on whenever I hop was given to him like Well, I want to know if he was sitting in and I hop at like 2 a.m. and just looked at it and started coming up with his acronym. I don't know Well, that's part of Bramham isn't one oh one two Bramham often talked about how the only proper way to eat a pancake was to baptize it and serve up

I can get behind that. Yeah, I often say that's the only thing that Bramham got right Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so interesting like the there I had somebody tell me I guess there's a couple months back really smart person who's like a They do strategy for companies and stuff and she was talking stepping back and looking at what Mike had done with I hop and I hate to say and I might be giving him too much credit I think the guy's a genius like not a good genius, but the guy's like brilliant Or just very lucky or trained very well

But he did a whole category creation thing like he invented intercessory missionary like what in the world is that That he made a whole new title of you come here you set in this prayer room and you get people to give you money to stay here You know the flip side of that is not many people gave us money to stay there that we were all poor and impoverished or whatever But he came up with all these different things. He came up with the worship model You're talking about you know turning your brain off and stuff. There was so much of

What they called harp and bowl where we would sing you know spontaneously in the scriptures and we had different kinds of Central we would pray for prayer topics, but then sometimes we would just pray the Bible Which was just singing I hops theology and most of it was just like slow and moody and lots of pads and reverb on guitars and Ambient, you know, and it was it was it would low you to sleep. It would it would make you put your guard down But there was so many of these pieces put in place that just made made it a

To say this, but it made a brainwashing factory is what I did and it got everybody you know on the same page and singing the same stuff And it got to the point to where That I just really been realizing this recently That allowed them to define so many things for me and I guess that you know That's the information that thought control kind of stuff of That I let them define who Jesus was and it had to line up with their definition even even if I saw something different in scripture or whatever One of the big ones was justice like their idea of justice like we would sing all the time a chorus that if it's not

Jesus, it's not justice, we want Jesus, we want justice. And what that meant to them was if we're not preaching the gospel, if we're not, you know, telling them our message, then it's not justice.

You can go feed people, you can go clothes people, but if you're not bringing Jesus explicitly into it, it's the work of the anti-Christ. And so like that's the, they had a whole theology about a false justice movement in the anti-Christ.

And it's just amazing, like the power that we gave to these people in our lives. Like now that the blinders are off, I'm just like, how in the world? But it was a slow process.

It was, you know, it started when I was a kid and climaxed there. And the detailing was, you know, just as long as taking just as long. Yeah, you're a musician and I'm a musician.

I remember after I left this and I got to thinking back of the music, we had such, some of it was good. I'm not going to say all the music was bad. But there were certain songs that were obviously cult songs.

And they were obviously with the intent to indoctrinate you. Some of them were about Brannum and Brannum and being the prophet. And they were, we had songs like, you know, not to the level that you had, but we had songs about where the Christian army were going to war, this kind of thing, which was kind of common back, you know, you go back into the early days of Pentecostalism.

If you look at the timeline of the world wars and then look at some of that music that happened during this. I'm in Lord's army. Yes, sure. Exactly. And though, you know, that's light-hearted to some extent.

Now, some of the verses, I go back to what that's healthy or not. But after I left, I, you know, I had trouble even listening to Christian music, because I realized how the chanting works.

It could indoctrinate you. And you could not even know that you're believing something false, just because you're chanting this music over and over. And I'm convinced if I had never been in this cult and I had chosen my own pathway instead of having a lot of it chosen for me, I probably would have became a psychologist, and I study the psychology of it to no end.

And I got into the study of the music. And, you know, like I said, people who come into these things are tired. They want to shut off the world and relax. And just, you know, here's a safe place.

It's a church. It's a safe place. And it painted that way too. Yes, it's painted that way. And so they, you know, in the, it's hypercharged now, but back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, you'd come into this holy music in this holy sanctuary, the, the Brannum type churches.

You couldn't talk if you went into the sanctuary. The ushers would come in. and they would take you out and they'd boot you out of the building if you spoke. And so you're coming in and you sit down and there's this soft organ playing and your heart rate slows down to that level because you're relaxed.

Then the preacher starts preaching and he's also starting off really slow and he gives you this welcoming story that you can relate to and then speeds up throughout the course of the sermon until he's just yelling at you.

And so you have entered the state where it's almost like the abused child scenario. You're isolating yourself mentally because you're being abused, you're being emotionally abused and it's matching your heart rate so he's brought you into the state of hypnosis where you've shut off everything and now he can have his way with your mind.

You set me up for an alley, you're there because it sounds like if you remove the random stuff from it, it sounds just like the prayer room, it sounds like from the ushers to everything and so like there was no talking in the prayer room, I can't think of anything more cruel than putting four to 500 people in a room which is sometimes maybe two, three hundred something like that, I don't want to exaggerate but like our big fasting days and things like that when it was like all staff prayer meetings, you get all these people jam packed in a room and then tell them they can't talk to each other.

We're all sitting there, you know, exciting music, this and that and if you went off into a side room and tried to have a personal conversation, you'd get ran out and if you went outside the prayer room, you'd get in trouble because you're supposed to be in there, keep in your commitment of your sacred trust of 24 hours a week and it's crazy how that happens and you're talking about the songs.

We had worship leader wrote one song, Misty is one of the main worship leaders there about the prophetic history and I didn't realize it till I was like probably two, three years and I hopped that that's what it was about because my it's funny because I had no biblical foundation before I hopped and they gave me just enough biblical foundation to like believe them hookline and sinker like they were the first people that told me that are in articulated Jesus is fully God and fully man and I was like my mind was blown I was like oh my gosh

like they're teaching me Christology and I learned what Christology was and like all these things so I was like why can't I trust them and then whenever we're having like our anniversaries and stuff like that, she would break out this song if I've heard the story told of the prophet who prophesied of the rain that would come in the middle of the drought that would be a sign of the rains to come and then the chorus was I'm still waiting for the rain waiting for the rain and so in an act of rebellion earlier this year, I posted about that song

on social media and recorded a cover of CCR have you ever seen the rain? That's good. Yeah, we had we had similar we had the song and they stick with you right even still today I'll be out working on my car and one of these things will pop in my head and I'm hungry.

I mean, I throw the wrench on the ground, I'm like, get that out of my head. Yes, and some of them are good, and that's the problem. Like some of them are good melodies, and like, good jams, it's just like, ugh.

Yeah, and we weren't, see, we weren't allowed to, I did not know who CCR was until a few years ago. We weren't allowed to listen to it because in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, the era we were stuck in, rock and roll was of the devil, and so I had never heard of it, and I'll never forget, I was listening to my new music, and suddenly midnight special came on to the radio, and I'm like, wait a minute, that is the tune to the song that I sang growing up constantly.

I still had it stuck in my head, we were seeing let the Holy Ghost message, shine your love, and light on you, and some guy had just completely robbed whoever's a band, I can't think of the band name, but he had...

My family sang that song, John, I don't think I actually know midnight special, I think I know the song you're singing, I think that's what, my point of reference. Well, so you gotta go here midnight special, it's actually a good song, but yeah, they use these techniques, and I'm convinced that people like, in today's world, the cults, I'm convinced that there was a strategy behind it because they're using the same exact strategies of the old years, but they've removed what no longer works, and they're attaching new things, like one of the things is they love to do anything

that can just completely rob you of your time. If they can hijack your time, they can hijack your mind, and especially if they can keep all your time focused on the cult, then you're constantly bringing and continually brainwashing yourself.

In the Brannum cults, we did this because we were supposed to listen to these cassette tape recordings of Brannum, but in today's world, you know, it's so much more powerful, there's MP3s, there's videos, now these many of the cults have YouTube channels, and people are just pouring themselves into it.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

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Yeah, it's interesting. Mike had one of his other teaching series. So he had his seven, he had his seven signs of a cult and seven longings of the heart and all that stuff. But he talked about power of a focused life is what he called it.

And he would talk about breaking your day up into 15 minute increments and talk about redeeming the time and how we'd all stand before Jesus and be accountable for every second of how we spend our time in our lives.

And I remember that it's funny like our body tells us things. Like tells us that we're not safe and we don't know how to listen to it sometimes and sometimes we are at least I did.

I ended up calling it, you know, spiritual encounters or something. I had a dream one time where it was like this military boarding school type thing. And very in the spirit of Joel's army, I guess, is how I took it at the time.

As soon as I woke up the next morning, I was like, oh my gosh, I was in Joel's army. And we're looking at this whiteboard me and my friends, I guess, whoever in the army with me and this whiteboard, it's got the whole week mapped out.

And I'm assuming it was the 15 minute increments. I just remember seeing these blocks under each day of the week and stuff and seeing that everything was filled in that there was no free time.

And I remember looking at the board and of all things to ask and to ponder and wonder. I look at the board and I go, I don't know when I'm going to have time to brush my teeth.

And I remember that blowing me away. But that is like, I'm doing this thing. I'm signing up again. We're in Joel's army and training. And we're getting equipped here. Jesus is coming back. We're not going to fall away.

Like, oh, I'm just a constant toddler there. Yeah, I wasn't certain that everybody in our church wore deodorant, but it's a little bit worse if they didn't brush their teeth.

It's so insane. I mean, as a student, I was, so I had like, is about three hours a day that we would take a class. And it would be one class with less three hours.

We'd take one class at a time. And then we also had to do prayer room hours, which were 24 hours a week, which usually ended up, you could do those almost however you wanted.

But you had to do 12 to hour prayer meetings a week is what it was. And so most people either do four days of six hours in a prayer room or six days of four hours in a prayer room.

And I worked for the internship at the time as well is kind of, that's how I kept a roof over my head. So I was kind of like an RA for the internship. I lived with the interns and made sure they didn't do crazy stuff.

And most of the time, I was the instigator of the crazy stuff, but we won't get into that. I brought a little levity to the cult, I guess. But I would, so I had requirements there as far as my job to keep a roof over my house, over my head.

So I had a bedroom there. And then they gave us three meals a week out of the cafeteria is what they would let the staff do. So I knew I was at least going to eat.

three times a week. And then outside of that, I worked at a church on Sunday mornings, it was only time I got outside the bubble. So it's a weird dynamic at IHOP. Like, I look like not to be arrogant, but I'm like, I'm a good musician, I'm a good worship leader, like I know that I'm good at what I do. But good musicians and worship leaders and stuff are a dime a dozen at IHOP. Like everybody is a great singer, everybody's a great musician, worship leader. And so I took this job on Sunday mornings at a local Methodist church and I'd

get paid a hundred bucks a week to go lead worship for them. And then I could bring a team of like five people, five or six people and they would pay them 50 bucks a piece. So I had this little conglomerate of IHOPpers who would pile in a van with me and we would drive to Shawnee about 30, 45 minutes away, go lead worship of this church. And that was the only money that I made. And so I had 400 bucks a month and I got the roof and the three meals. And somehow I lived off that. Nowadays,

I don't know how that would have kept me afloat. But I'm an adult with kids and a family and pay real rent. I'm like, I don't know how I survived. But they did. They filled our schedule completely with requirements every Friday and Saturday night. We had required services we're supposed to be at.

So we never got the traditional weekend experiences. And then sometimes you'd have to go to pin on the season that what was going on. Sometimes you had to be there at Sunday morning service too.

And so it was they did a good job of keeping us busy all the time. Yeah, I can't even imagine putting myself through that. It sounds like so you're in the Joel's Army. It almost sounds like you're in a platoon, right? The way that they structure this.

I'll never forget. I, like I said, I had examined Mike Bickle and I hop from a distance just noticing odd similarities. But it wasn't until I saw the Southern poverty law centers big right up on what's his name, Todd Bentley, whenever I really, it really struck me. Joel's Army manifested sons of God. That's Brannemism 101. And it even predates Brannem to some extent because it's Christian identity theology. And they're, they're basically, they were trying to form the notion that we were forming the final end of days, warriors for the end of days battle between the forces

of good and evil. And you're going to be part of it because you're of the special group. Is that where the white supremacy stuff came into the Brannem stuff? Is that linked to the Christian identity? It's, it's this big weird conglomeration of everything. So Brannem's mentor was the second end command of the 1915 Ku Klux Klan. And later the imperial wizard. So he got some of his ideas from that, although a lot of it has been scrubbed. You, you won't find many, many direct themes.

what you will find is there was this growing notion that from British's realism, which is the weird anti-scientific anti-correct theology that the people of the American Isles and the British of the Americas and the British Isles were the lost ten tribes of Israel. Well, there became this sudden notion that if you take some of the passages that were written to Israel in the Old Testament, they apply, but it's they only apply in part. We have to have a new prophet to tell us how they apply to us today. And so they would take weird things like

so you need another cult. Yeah, you basically need another cult. So Brannum took the prophecy of Nahum. And he said, Nahum, who, oh, by the way, is writing about ancient Assyrians. He's in Nineveh. And he even says a prophecy to Nineveh, I think, at the top of the scroll. Brannum says, he is describing Outer Drive in Chicago. And what they were doing, I studied, you know, I studied all kinds of things because I'm trying to figure out how and why people believe this nonsense.

There was a sudden unexplainable tidal wave that hit Lake Michigan and people died because all of a sudden out of the bloom, out of the out of the blue, there's this sudden tidal wave surging for no reason. They can't figure it out. Now they have figured it out. It is a, you know, it's a natural occurrence. But back then, nobody knew what this was and they'd never heard of this.

So they, the people who were trying to build religion off of fear was claiming that this was God telling us the end of the world is coming. And Nahum is writing about us right here in the prophecy. So you had this weird mixture of people thinking that they're Israel and then you had all of the wars and the fears of another Third World War. So they were creating armies.

And then mix all of this with the British Israel theology because it's the notion that the Anglo-Saxon race were the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel. What people got to thinking, oh, well, if I'm not, if they're not Anglo-Saxon, they must be the bad guys. So then it turned into a racist theme and that just spread like wildfire. It's, it's crazy because like once you see some of this stuff, you see it everywhere and it's like hard to unsee. And that's like one of the scariest things like looking at right now and like learning some of these history things. I don't know if you're

familiar with, I hope I say her name right, but Kristen Dumay who did the Jesus and John Wayne book. I don't know if you're familiar with her at all. I've heard of it. Yeah. She, she, she'd done a whole lot and she kind of dives into not as much the white supremacy side of Christianity.

I mean, there's some of that at play, but she dives into some of the red scare stuff. And like I had no idea that Billy Graham was up there saying that these are the devil's attacking America.

I think we're God's people. And the communists are coming for us. It's a spiritual attack in this and that. And I'm like, like Billy Graham is like a hero. Like I've never heard anybody say anything about about Billy Graham.

And I'm like, you know, like all these positive things. And I'm like, I hear him saying this. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like these guys, like there's some kind of connection. There's something like they're not coming up with this on their own.

But then you start to see like modern day examples of it. And you're just like, oh gosh. Oh, yeah. Makes you scared. What does that exactly? And that's why Christian poverty or Southern poverty law published this.

They monitor the racist groups and extremist groups, right? Well, the the Joel's army it developed because of Christian identity and Christian identity was there were there are different aspects of it. But one of them was they they took this book called The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, which told of this Jewish communist plot against, you know, the world.

There's going to be global domination by the Jews and they've infiltrated the government, this school systems. They're now coming into media and television. And anyway, I'm telling you, seven mountain utopias, exactly. You know, I've been going through this every single thing that the NR has today.

I can find it in Christian identity, which is really, really scary. But Billy Graham was he was a big part of this. He was pushing a lot of the same agendas. And he even I can't remember what year that was, but he had to go back and repent because of some of the anti-Semitic things that he said because of the Christian identity themes that were dominating.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy just like the, because although a lot of these harmful things were experienced at IHOP that I experienced, like you see a lot of them in broader Christianity and not to make like judgment statements about things and then people's beliefs and what they want to believe.

But in my experience, growing up with ideas like total depravity and being told that, you know, my goodness is nothing apart from God and that my righteousness is filthy rags and all these things.

Being told that over and over does something to your psyche to where you begin to think that you're a worthless piece of junk and that there is no good in you. And I remember that's whenever the wheels started falling off for me was in, in 2020, I saw, and hopefully, you know, if people agree with this, I get it, they know they know whatever.

But for me, I started seeing, you know, during the pandemic and all, we had the BLM riot protest stuff depending on what side of the aisle you call it different things. And I remember, Um, it was, it was that day whenever, uh, if I could say it's not, I hate even say this name. That's how much like division is around this stuff.

But I remember when Trump took that Bible and walked up the road to do that photo op in front of that church and they ended up, you know, uh, I care if it's national guard or local police or capital police, whatever it was, was going and moving these people out of the way. So Trump could walk up to do a photo op of this Bible and this thing. And, I mean, they're just brutalizing these people like just so he could take a picture. And what I see is black people and gay people helping each other up. And I'm like, okay, like

the church has told me that these are bad people and that they can have no good, like apart from God. And then I see, you know, one of the biggest demonized segments of society of the LGBT community. I see them helping all these people. And I'm like, how can I call, look at that and call it bad? Um, it's just, it's, it's crazy how pervasive, um, the, just the supremacy kind of idea is and how much it's ingrained. And I don't think it's talked about enough. And I hop had some stuff like, uh, my, there was somebody had a dream

about Mike Bickle and an Afro. And they were talking about people coming out of hip hop into I hop. And, and they like end up launching this whole African American four-run or alliance ministry and started doing conferences for black people. And it was, it was such a weird kind of thing. But you could talk to any person of color who is at I hop and they were pushed to the sides. Uh, they were only given a voice whenever it helped the greater good. And they could control it. If anybody started pushing back on anything, they were put behind

the soundboard or putting a back closet somewhere, you know, doing broadcast audio or somewhere where they can't make a racket. And, uh, it's just the, the roots of evil that happened in these places. I'm like, how dare y'all say that we have no good enough? And this is your fruit, you know, it's, it's so wrong. They dehumanize people. And the fact that you mentioned the word homosexual means that thanks to you, I'm going to have my inbox filled up, my comment feeds filled up with people, even the mention of the word people are so charged

politically charged against it. And in it to pull it, you know, there are scriptures that talk about homosexuality. It is there. It's black and white. And that's, it's listed as a sin. There are other things that are listed as sin, such as drunkenness. And we talked about drinking earlier, right? Well, back in the 50s and 60s before the homosexual agenda was politicized, it was the prohibition agenda. And if you went back into that era, if you were to mention alcohol like we did casually, they would have received not, you know, emails, but they would have seen people with ball bats coming up to get them. It's, it is a political

weaponization of religion. And it's the pro life. movement now. I mean, that was a big part of IHOP. We were, I, I never had any other option growing up. I didn't even know. I just knew we voted for pro-life candidates. I remember at my home church growing up, having pamphlets, and I'm pretty sure this was against tax code and stuff like that, but they would have pamphlets of all the pro-life people so that you could take it to the poll and know who to vote for. Not on anything else, just that they didn't believe in an abortion.

That was the sole determining factor. They could be the biggest crook in the world, but as long as they were pro-life, you know, that's what we did. I mean, they would have us go out and do, I don't know if you ever saw the bound for life tape things where we put the red life tape over our mouths and they did a thing in DC for a while where they set up a house of prayer there with Louis Engel and would protest on the Supreme Court steps and you start to hear some of these people put together. There's lots of people who've talked about it putting these pieces together of

the politics, politics is politicalization, I can't even talk right, of all of this with like the Pat Robertsons and the the Falwells and all these characters who that come together and you've realized you're like, oh my gosh, these guys are pulling all our strings and they're like trying to control all this and then you're like, is America a cult? I don't know, but yeah, and into people like you and I who are empathy, empaths, we really want to help people, genuinely, you and I had a deep conversation about this. It's one of the things that really bothers

me because you know, I can't dehumanize a person even when I was in the cult, I couldn't do this and I, you know, the fact I had a person who admitted recently on a podcast that years ago he had struggled with homosexuality and I actually had people that were blasting me because I didn't attack him for his past sin of homosexuality. I'm like, I can't, I'm not like this. Number one, I don't want to do it, but it's not right and I'm not in a religion where I'm politicized, where I have to hate people and I will never ever be in a religion like this. The abortion issue,

you know, I've watched, I've watched women on the news who are crying because they're in a state where their, their life is at risk, they might die because of the, the baby that's in them and I've watched some of these Christian ministers who say things like, well, if we allow this, then we're opening the door to what, you know, widespread abortion. So they're dehumanizing the person who actually might die and I can't be like this, you know, it's not me. It's, it's crazy how they, I mean, we're programmed to look at people that way and to feel a personal responsibility for

their decisions. And that's been one of the hardest things to be able to pinpoint like where that comes from for me is, you know, it's whether they're going to burn in the hell forever in that fear and you can have that personal thing. I remember, you know, growing up and in the churches that did, we all had our prayer list and the souls we, great for in the souls we want to see saved and we would grieve and grieve and grieve.

It's not that I don't have space for people to believe those things, but the fact that it would derail my life based on choices that somebody else was making was just so interesting and I've seen so many lives damaged from that kind of stuff.

Many friends, because one of the things I hop engaged in pretty voraciously, but they probably denies is conversion therapy type stuff and I've seen the harm that that's had on friends. I've seen friends who were forced into heterosexual marriages and see those things fall apart later because people have their opinions, you can have your opinions on it.

But I saw the harm that was left because of that, because of what it happened and everything that I do, everything I've been doing, we've been setting up support spaces and things like that for a while and we've been hosting conversations on Friday nights and that's been one of the biggest things is we've been telling people it's like you're going to hear diverse opinions, you're going to hear things that you might not agree with and that's okay.

Nobody's trying to change your mind, nobody's trying to tell you that you're wrong, we're not trying to do any of that, but we're trying to listen to one another. That's what we're trying to do.

We're trying to listen to experiences, which is one of the reasons why I appreciate Wesley's theology of giving experience a little bit of credence, but you can't question somebody's experience and the harms that they experience.

They're conclusions. You might not agree with their conclusions of why that harm exists, but we can all empathize and see it and understand it and call it harm, like we can't, we can see that, and I just wish we had more of that in the world and that's why I do stuff like this is because I want people to see people as humans, that's huge.

It is huge. The cults teach a very black or white mentality to the right or it's wrong, it's either good or it's evil, there's no one between and what it takes away is the element of growth to learn why it's right or it's wrong, and you're not really allowed the questions of finding out, do you agree if it's right or wrong?

You're told you must believe it, and when people leave these cults, they're stuck with that mentality, and the simple process, like I was born and raised in it, I've never had a chance to even discover what was right or wrong.

I was told this is what God is, and they painted this narcissistic God that honestly, if I had been able to critically think, I don't even like this God, why would I want to serve a narcissistic God?

It's not the God of the Bible by no means, but the problem is it's black or white, and when people leave this, they've been manipulated to believe that they can't have that personal growth.

And many of them are starting as if their teenagers again spiritually and fundamentally. So they have to go through that growth. And many times, I mean, one of the first things that happens to a teenager is, well, do I even believe in God?

Why do I believe in God? My parents, their Christian, why am I Christian? Just because they're Christian. Many teenagers go through this with people who deprogram from a cult and they deconstruct, they're deconstructing a false God that really doesn't even match the Bible, doesn't exist.

And they're questioning that God. So they have nothing. And if you try to force upon them what it is that they're supposed to believe, you're no better than the cults. And that's the reason why I have such an open platform.

I don't care who you are, what you believe, if you've been burned by a cult. I'm gonna hear your voice if you're willing to share your story with others and other people can learn from it.

And who am I to say that people who have taken one path now won't come into a Christian path later? I'm not the one that makes that decision, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's in the post-ihop community.

I mean, all of us came from a Christian background and so there's still a lot of that language and that's the primary way we still all communicate. But there's people all across the board they may be their own version of Christian, whatever that means to them.

They may have gone to a more liturgical church now or they may be agnostic, but some of them are still using the same language to grab their experiences. But I love one of my friends who's on a podcast the other day and somebody had come kind of aggressively for the deconstructing folks.

I guess they're easy targets these days. And in her response to him, because he was trying to pigeonhole her into an answer and she's like, you know, I hear a lot of things said about these people.

She's like, but what I hear them saying is Jesus would not treat people this way. She's like, that's what I hear them saying. I don't hear them say, hell, Satan, worship the devil. I want to sin.

Like I hear them say, like this is not what Jesus looks like and we had talked about earlier in our conversation. Like that's one of the things that like give me so much peace is looking at all these threads throughout my life.

Although brandly, 14 year old brandly would probably look at 33 year old brandly now and calling my heretic and fear for his eternal salvation. But there's parts of 14 year old brandly that's still me, that still exists.

And that's one of them is like, I really believe and still frankly believe in the things that Jesus did and taught and said. And but like it's the least of these message. It's like, when do we hear that?

Like it's so much of its supremacy, whether it's Christian supremacy with 10 commandments and forced, you know, Bibles and curriculums and things like that. Like I get like, I've been there and I've supported those things at times.

But we just need to let people be and grow and People are good people. We just need to let them be good people and good things will happen quit trying to control everything and it's Sorry, it's a tangent show It is for me too. I mean, I'm a people person. I love all people, you know I would have Mike Bickle in this program if you do it I would pay to do that. I wouldn't agree with everything. He said by no means, but you know, I being in the upper echelons of the cult that I escaped I

Sympathized with even the leadership because some of them had backgrounds that led them down the path that they went Granted, they are predators many of them Maybe not sexually, but there's spiritual predators many of them But I know and I have I was close friends with William Brannum son Maybe not as close as other people, but he was a good friend of mine. I I cried real tears when he died and That man is responsible if if you look at a from a Christian standpoint that man is responsible for several people who went completely away from

real Christianity into this cult and And this was not what you would consider as a good person by Christian standards But he was trapped into it also he was the son of the man who's doing the same thing. I feel sorry for him That's where it's so messy. Yeah, so messy whenever it says the abuse to become abusers It's like these like mid mid-tier executives if you will and these organizations and it's it's like at what point does the Couple built culpability change hands and I don't think it's a question any of us can answer

But we become that because that's what we were taught. I mean, I did some things to people that I had to apologize for later on I remember had this one friend who back to the drinking Found out that he was he was drinking he was I hop you student is I hop you we have to sign these agreements And we were trying to help this guy and I don't even think he was abused in alcohol But I didn't even have the the competency to know what alcohol abuse was. I thought if you took a sip of alcohol

It was alcohol abuse, you know And this guy had like a six pack in his fridge is like what it was so like I mean obviously if you drink all that at one time He probably have a good time, but like I that's not what he was doing every day and It's probably very similar. I can't remember if that was when we were talking here in this this recording or not But whenever you're talking about Sip and alcohol and it it helping your head like I mean it could have very well been something like that for this kid

But the administrators found out and somehow me and my my roommates got pegged as the people to rehabilitate this guy And I remember he kept going back to alcohol kept going back to alcohol and I remember I was standing outside The music academy in the parking lot talking to this guy and I was just dumbfounded. I couldn't figure out, I'd gone to his house and poured out the beer in his front lawn with him watching.

He moved in with us at our house and he still couldn't stay away from alcohol. So I'm sitting out there and I'm like, man, dude, like, I don't know what else to do. I guess according to the Bible, I'm supposed to hand you over to Satan.

I was, I was, I wasn't, I wasn't just my jovial self. I was dead serious. We're going to have to hand you over to Satan because we don't know what to do with you.

And it's just, it's, it's crazy how you end up becoming a part of that system. You do. You end up abusing people yourself and it's something we all have to reckon with. Yeah. It's hard.

And I can't imagine being a minister and that's usually the last resort. When they give up on you, they will do this. They'll turn you over to Satan. We've been in real churches now where the minister, some of the people, man, they can be pains, but he tries to bear through it and, you know, how many times are you supposed to forgive them?

70 times seven. I don't know that he's made it that far yet, but, you know, who knows? So if you could say something to encourage people who have been in the eye hop or similar cults and have escaped, what would you say to encourage them?

I think just, just stay the course, like listen to other people's experiences, share your experiences with people who've done similar things. There's tons of support communities and things out there to where you can find online.

If it wasn't for thank God for the pandemic that taught us all how to be friends on the internet without actually meeting in person, that's opened up so many relationships for me. Any friends here in Virginia Beach from being honest, hang out with regularly, but I've so many friends I'm on the phone with all the time or in Facebook chats with and find those people who've experienced similar things, as you've been asking the same questions as you and be gracious with yourself, be very kind to yourself.

Like you said earlier, the, you know, it seems like the cults go after the intelligent people, like it's not the, it's not the run of the mill folks that fall for it. Sometimes it's the sincere, the whole hearted and whatever your belief about God is now, like if you still believe in God, I think God sees that and honors that still.

I think that, you know, those reaches that are in your heart for good and kindness and love that's still in your heart and that's not, you know, it doesn't just go away because you realized it was all a cult, like you can still love and be kind and hold onto those things, but don't do it alone because it's miserable alone.

I spent two years sick because I tried to do it alone, disabled, find some friends and it'll be a whole lot easier. That's a very good advice. Well, I'm so glad that you came on to share your story with others and I'm certain you'll be encouragement to other people, so thank you.

Thank you so much for doing this. Absolutely. Thank you, John. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org.

For an overview of the historical research of William Brannum and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Brannum in his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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