Our Stories: An Interview With Kim Dunn

Hello, and welcome to another episode. I am your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Kim Dunn, almost abducted by the NAR.

Kim, it's good to have you on here. We have exchanged a bit of communications via text and messenger, and you are interested in telling your story, and I know the world is interested to hear it, so maybe if you could tell everyone a little bit about yourself and how you were almost abducted by the NAR.

Well, first off, John, I just want to say thank you for all of your work and research into William-Branham, and actually more than that, probably the broader charismatic community and its roots. That has been really eye-opening for me.

I feel like we've probably grown up on the fringe of like the William-Branham cult. I didn't really know per se who he was or anything about the message, but I grew up in a small pentacostal denomination called the pentacostal church of God.

My dad was a pastor. My husband's dad was a pastor there, and that's actually how he met. I would say theologically, probably pretty close in alignment with these, as some ways of God always believed in the Trinity, so he weren't holiness or oneness, but we always believed in the Trinity.

We had the pentacostal youth, young people's association of PYPAs, and we had to sign this agreement that we wouldn't go to movies, we wouldn't dance, we couldn't go to pooled halls, we couldn't go to bowling alleys.

There was a whole list of things that we couldn't do. We couldn't wear pants, the girls couldn't wear pants, we couldn't get ears pierced, we could cut our hair, but we couldn't wear makeup, and so there was a whole litany of things that we couldn't do.

I remember having an interesting conversation with my dad one time when I was 12, we had had some cousins come and visit, and she had taught me how to shave my legs, and that upset my dad, and he said...

I see you shaved your legs and I said, yeah, Tonya taught me and he's like, well, if God had wanted you to have hair or not have hair on your legs, it wouldn't be growing there.

And I said, and I looked at him kind of like, seriously? Like, so why do you shave your face? I never could quite grasp the whole, all of it thou shalt nots, right? And I've always loved Jesus, right?

I've always wanted to be pleasing to him, but I never understood all of these silly, silly roles. Like, show me in the Bible where I can't shave my legs, right? I want to see that, I want evidence of it and I didn't like the hypocrisy, I guess, of saying that rules for thee but not for me, like that, that just really frustrated me.

But I think as time went on, my dad kind of softened in his belief, because I do remember him telling me there were no apostles or prophets in that he said there would never be more apostles and prophets.

So I did walk away with that, but my connection, when you were doing one of your episodes on William Brannum and his, the prophecies that he did, I think, in the thirties or whatever that was kind of his bedrock or the forties, whatever that he, he said, God gave me certain prophecies and you said something about egg-shaped cars, my, my, I about hit the floor, because my dad told me when the pace or came out, do you remember, do you want to have your seat?

Yeah. That was an egg-shaped car and he says, well, there's one of those prophecies coming true. So and I never knew where that source was, he never told me who said, well, William Brannum said, so I about fell off my chair when you talked about that, because I thought, oh my goodness, that put a lot of kind of pieces of the puzzle together, because I believe my family, who were, my dad's family, who were kind of basically a bunch of, forget me for deciding my family were bunch of horse thieves, they're a little wild bunch, but

they got saved in a temporary Bible and I don't know from where or by whom, but the timing seems right for it to have been, maybe I'm one of those, William Brannum, three Bibles in the 30s and all of that whole thing that they did, because they were always charismatic kind of hostile, right?

Yeah. There's a lot of crossover, I'm a carfinatic, I grew up, I restored Corvette's with my father growing up and I am an artist. I used to like to draw cars so I would check out books from the library of old cars and you know every era basically and there was a you know the old old cars were very blocky but there was a an era about 19 I want to say it was about 1930ish where they were starting to toy with the idea of aerodynamics and they were making a lot of rounded corners and so you find the old buses the

well even some of the old cargo trucks had that that egg shape and they were towing with the egg shape and at the time of the pro I never really thought about it until years after I left but at the time of the prophecy it wasn't that he was at the time that he was mentioning the prophecy it wasn't that he had actually predicted it he was saying look what we have now and remember how it used to be there is no record of a 1933 prophecy that's that's the real shocking thing and even if there was back in 1933 I found egg-shaped cars back I think 1916 was the earliest

but the assemblies of God it's really interesting because the assemblies of God denounced and a lot of the NAR researchers have connected William Brannum to the latter reign and so your mind automatically goes to well the assemblies of God must have denounced Brannum but Brannum went where the money went so when the assemblies denounced them he pretended like he denounced them and in certain groups and then he would flirt with them and other groups you know some of his strongest promoters were laterane guys and some of his other strongest promoters were against laterane but the assemblies in Indiana became a rogue state because they were supporting the

Brannum revivals and so especially concentrated in this area you had a bunch of them even after laterane was denounced that the assemblies were flirting with Brannumism and it kind of went on so the rules kind of remained the same and it's you know I grew up was very similar to what you're describing we had rules just for the sake of rules it's interesting because you always knew what not to do but they didn't really teach you like the things you really needed to know like how to handle a boyfriend girlfriend relationship how nobody ever told me you know

how far to go with kissing how far you know nobody ever had those conversations with me it was just don't do that and so fortunately I got married very young but um so I didn't get into any trouble but I think I probably could have had I not met my husband and got married but I just feel like they focused so much on things that didn't really matter and never talked about the things that really mattered.

I could have very easily gotten myself into, walked away from the faith, got into relationships and had children out of Weblock and all sorts of stuff because nobody ever talked to me about that stuff.

So I just don't do this. I heard time and time again, sermons about, if you have a question about it, don't do it. Well, if you're a child growing up, you're going to have a question about everything.

So you're looking for, they actually, what they've done is they've reversed how it should be. They have it such that if there's a question, don't do it otherwise in their mind, it becomes sin because you're sinning, you're going into the unknown.

And what it does, it creates a group of people who live in such a way where they're looking for the rules to guide them as to how they should live. And like you said, with the boyfriend thing, you're always faced with that next question.

So you look for a rule for the answer. What is the rule on boyfriends? What is the rule on kissing? When the brand of sex, you weren't allowed to kiss. So we actually cut that off at that rule.

Where it ends up is instead of looking to Jesus or looking to your heart for what's right and your own personal walk with God, you're instead looking for a rule. And if there isn't one, what happens is the board of elders or whatever get together and they invent a new rule because there wasn't one.

And so you end up with rules on top of rules. That's true. You do. I think I just wish my parents would have been a little bit more open with me and having conversations with me about my own personal value and worth.

And what's that saying, why would a boy want, why does he want to buy the cow when he gets to the milk for free kind of thing? I wish that those conversations had been had with me rather than just tell me, don't have sex, don't do this, don't do that.

Just fit to be, you know, to really tell me why I shouldn't do those things and to, rather than it's just the same. Yeah. And that's the other problem with the rules based religion, especially if you have an inquisitive mind like I do, you want to know why?

Why is the rule and the rule is simply because there's a rule. And a lot of times many people, because the rules are mentioned in church, they assume that those same rules can be found in the Bible.

Well, if you go back and look at the customs of the ancient world, and if we were to live by those customs, we would be kicked out of the church. many cases, especially in the Pentecostal churches, the rule for the long hair. You mentioned, don't shave your legs. Well, the ancient Jewish custom was that for in times of mourning, even the women shaved their heads. It was part of mourning. And, you know, when they possible, Paul, I think it's Paul, whenever he's talking in Corinthians about the hair, you know, the hair is the women's glory, but he's talking about that specific custom. And at the very end of

that passage, he says, but we have no such custom. Neither does the churches of God. And so, I think people read more into it just for the sake of having a rule. But the shaving the legs thing, I came in contact with a Brannamite sect that there was a girl who came to one of the churches that we were attending. I think it was in Missouri. I can't remember exactly where.

But I was, you know, I was a male and I was curious about women. And she walked up and I was very much interested to see what she'd taken or not until I saw the hair peeking through the Pentecostal churches in the leg. And I was like, I don't know about this. There's something just not right here. I was wearing coffee-colored Pentecosts so that, hopefully, that would never be seen.

But yeah, it was, fortunately, my dad, I think, realized the silliness of his comment and he never brought it up again. At least, I think my dad had some common sense about him. And he was, he was teachable, you know, because they do know he suffered over the as the years went on. He's since passed away, but he became a much softer version of himself as the years went on. He wasn't so hard-minded. But yeah. But after getting married, we continued to go to a small Pentecostal church of God down here in the Bay Area. And then we just weren't getting the, it was such a, it was a very

small congregation like 20 people. And we were looking, as again married couple, we were looking for more relationship and kind of a different experience to be honest with you in church. So we went to a big assemblies of God here in our city. And we were there about 10 years. And then we just kind of bounced, we were there for 10 years and then we went to church plants and that folded and so then the church plant was placed into another assemblies of established assemblies of God church. And then things started happening with my family and my parents were just starting to

get ill and we needed to travel more. And so it just, ended up that we ended up at a local church over here. It's very word of faith, but I wouldn't have known that at the time, because I didn't have those labels at the time.

I was, I've read the Bible more than once, but you know, when you read it through a filter, a specific filter, you don't, like I always wanted to be like the apostles, and I felt like a failure because I wasn't, I felt like I was the apostles before the resurrection, and I was weak and afraid and cheerful, and I wanted so much the Holy Spirit to come in and fill me with this power so that I could be powerful like the apostles were after Jesus' resurrection.

And so I always have in the back of my mind felt like a failure, that I wasn't doing everything that I should be doing for God. And so we went over to, I took our family to this new church, and it was a word of faith church, and it was okay for a while,

and then they started, you know, really pushing probably that prosperity gospel. Again, I didn't know these terms. I've only learned of these terms in the last five years. I didn't agree with it, but I didn't know why, and I thought, well, you know, it's okay.

I, they're talking about Jesus, they're saying Jesus's name, and so, I, it must be okay, right? Because they're opening up the Bible, they're reading scripture, I just didn't necessarily agree with everything they've said after they read the scripture, but I just, I didn't know why.

I just thought, well, it's okay, I didn't know that we should say something or do something about it, until a few years, in 2018, I think, the pastor who founded that church sold it to another pastor on the East Coast, and he came over and kind of brought his brand, and he's more, he's definitely a word of faith, definitely a prosperity gospel, and let's throw in some heresy while we're at it.

So, that was fun. Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny. I've been mapping out all of the different connections from branemism to the charismatic movement, et cetera. Now I'm edging into the NAR, and I'm trying to understand the NAR networks, and if you do a search for NAR apostles or prophets, you find the big names, which I'm not gonna mention, but then trying to understand that they're networked with names that you wouldn't even consider to be part of the NAR, because they're literally what birthed this whole thing, and it maps out to the very charismatic...

adequate of faith preachers, the prosperity gospel preachers, and the downside of it is what you exactly what you mentioned. You'll never achieve that carrot on the stick that they give you. If you, if you believe and if you bring yourself to the spiritual plane, you can do x, y, and z. Basically, you can become a sorcerer, just like I claim that I am a sorcerer while I'm teaching you this false gospel. And always fun at funny because I didn't grow up in that world. I grew up in the world that literally birthed that. And so we didn't have a lot of the same rules that they did back to you're talking about

the rules. And I have family members that exercise and they do yoga, for example. And it's, if you know what yoga is, it's just an exercise. I mean, you're literally stretching and bending and I wish I could do it. I can't. But they, there are people who were influenced by those movements who say that the people that are doing it are actually worshipping a demon. Just because you're stretching your body and I'm like scratching my head. Do you know what yoga is, man? You know, I understand that there is, you know, in in the Indian world, I understand that there is

ancient religions that also practice exercise. But the fact that those people exercise and I exercise doesn't mean I'm worshipping their God, you know. And even more to the point, I find it really odd and ironic that the people who are raised in those movements will just condemn any child who likes Harry Potter because they're, they're, you know, practicing their fantasy, you know, they the Harry Potter and the witches or whatever. But yet they're doing, they're literally trying to teach you sorcery in the churches. So they're doing far, you know, the same exact thing as Harry

Potter, right? And I, the first time I watched Harry Potter, I was like, you know, I've heard so many bad things about this and this actually a pretty good movie. Yeah, that's very well done. I've only seen the first one, but yeah, it's, it was good. Yeah, it's, you're right. They do, I have learned since exiting. We left that church in 2019 because it became very clear that he was now teaching heresy in the sense of, he made the comment that the Holy Spirit needs a body to accomplish anything on earth because God has given dominion of the earth to man. So God needs a man to accomplish

anything on the earth, totally twisting collotions three, one through three and it's tight. That, that kind of was the final straw. It's like the Holy Spirit was waking us up and realizing, now this is wrong and We could no longer sit under that ministry and we've found out recently now he considers the pastor there Now considers himself to be an apostle. I'm not sure who appointed him already self-appointed but Yeah, so we one of the big things that helped us come out of this was Actually happened to just stumble upon the American gospel film the original one. Oh well, and

and that really Opened my eyes to a lot and I feel like for the first time in my life. I truly heard the true gospel of Christ and salvation and everything and

It was such a heavy burden lifted off of me to realize I Don't have to be the apostles I Don't have to be like the twelve. That's that's not my job Yeah, I was so relieved to realize that I wasn't failing God, you know, because I had Like I said you read those passages. I I don't know how many times I prayed and declared you know by your stripes were healed and and how many times I decreed and declared over My kids and my husband and my home and my whatever The past the scriptures and I and I know that my heart was sincere

But like I said I I was deceived into believing Because I've read the word through that particular lens that filter That all of those scriptures apply to me today that I could we could do the same things that the apostles Did we could do them today. They're expected of us. You know and I actually I grew up um In writing where Bethel churches. I I was there when it wasn't Bethel oh wow it was Bethel as some ways of God and it was actually a very nice little church Until yeah until it wasn't but um

This whole thing teaches such new age practices and how I've heard Benny Johnson say from the pulpit and also been um Bill Johnson say stuff like you know those Those things that the Devil uses for like like you're saying sorcery and stuff and new age practices We can reclaim them and use them for God and stuff when He tells us clearly in his word that we are not to touch those things right that I don't need to decree and declare I don't have that a power or that ability or that authority To decree and declare anything you know that Romans

I've even forgotten in our Romans 4 or 17 the last bit of this is those things that aren't Declare those things is that I'm not that as if they were. That boy, that was one of my go to passages, because it made sense in that filter, in that how I filtered things when I read the Bible, I said, I'm not, I wasn't illiterate in that sense.

I knew what the Bible said, but I was reading it through the wrong filter. My filter was wrong. Yeah. And that's what God has changed since 2019. In the Harry Potter world, the bad guys have the same power as the good guys.

So if you're reading that book, it might be okay, but they're claiming that they're teaching from another book. And if you actually read the Bible, it's not the way it works. It's not a Harry Potter type of religion, but they certainly want to promote it as that.

And you mentioned your other church talking about the Holy Spirit must come down in a body. This is the basics of the manifested sons of God theology, which spread all through the latter reign.

It was part of the Christian identity movement. And it's so, it too is a fantasy, like the Harry Potter stuff, but what it does is it empowers a person to paint the picture of what this would look like.

Should the Holy Spirit actually come down in a body? Usually by men who describe themselves, when they describe the body that it's coming down in. And so they become the apostle when, then they say, and the apostle of this day, and they go off into their spiel, but the people who are so caught up in it, they're looking for, okay, who is this Holy Spirit guy that's coming?

And so they start to envision by the things that he says about himself, they start to envision this guy. This is how a cult forms a very destructive cult. So it is interesting. I've studied Bethel a little bit.

It is interesting that they came out of the assemblies of God, but that just ties into how all of these networks came to be. You've got this whole network of mess that out of the mess births these big mega church movements.

And some of them are small churches that are just as destructive. It doesn't have to be a mega church. But the bottom line is, like you said, the bottom line is the gospel is different.

And I will never forget when I first heard the gospel in its simplicity for the first time. I was scratching my head thinking, you mean that's it? Jesus died for us and we can be saved.

And I go back and I start reading the New Testament again and again to wash all of that mess out of my head. And it's as plain as day if you actually read the Bible.

So how these men try to complicate it and confuse it, I'll never understand why they do it. So in my experience, it has been solely to line their pockets. It is for no benefit of my own, other than...

and for them to get rich off the flock. And that has been what I have seen, you know,

the demand for tithing. And you need to tithe, you need to give, you need to give, God's gonna bless you if you give, if you don't give, you know, if you're not faithful. And here's the thing, there is some truth to that, right?

God loves a cheerful giver. And I have seen and I have experienced God's blessing because of being a faithful giver. But they distort it and they ruin it

because it becomes about them just getting rich and building their kingdom. And let me say that again. It's about them building their kingdom, not the kingdom of God. Yeah. God likes a cheerful giver, but the pastor doesn't appear in some cases to be participating in the cheerful giving is the big problem.

We started to understand the difference between, you know, first off, we began to understand that there was an old covenant and the tithing system was part of that. And just studying the tithing system was eye-opening because it wasn't, it was really a banking system.

It was kind of, it was more like an investment system because you gave your tith, which also included animals. And so on the seventh day when everybody rested, you went to your reserves and everybody shared in the food and celebration and there was drinking, there was wine, there was all kinds of things that the Pentecostal Churches don't allow.

And then every seventh week, they were all of these celebrations. So as you gave your stored up food and grain and all of your animals, et cetera, to the priest for him to manage, he also managed it in times of drought.

So whenever the entire community might have otherwise suffered, they went to the banking system and now the priest has food that he can give you, et cetera. So it was more of a, not, it was a religious ritual type thing, but it was more of a logistical thing to keep the people alive and moving, et cetera.

But then as the priest got old and as he was passing the torch to the next guy, they would give a large percentage of what you had given back. And that's the part that no pastor in this tithing system will ever, ever, ever do.

Just give it back. Right, they got to keep all they got. Cause they've got those big mortgages to pay on those fancy houses. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

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I think that was another big realization to me, was that tithing really is not talked about in the New Testament. That doesn't mean that we're not to give to the church, we're not to support our local church, and do so generously and joyfully, but that doesn't mean that we're under the thumb or that God's going to send us the hell, or like I had a friend, I was having a conversation with her, and she still goes to our former church, and she was so stressed out, because she had forgotten to send her child in that week.

And I'm like, it's okay, you know, God understands, you're not going to be struck dead because catastrophe is not going to happen, it's okay, you're going to be okay. This God knows your heart, and you are a generous and joyful giver.

And that was another big burden, right, that I felt was lifted off of me along with the fact that I didn't have to become, you know, a super apostle, and the fact that I could just be the best me in my environment, in my world that I could be, be the best mom, be the best wife, be the best employee, and be the best friend.

That's what God has called me to do, and to be, and you know, that's a big enough job to get up in the morning and walk every day in the goodness and the admonition of the Lord, and to make sure that my life is a testimony of His goodness and grace to those around me.

That's enough. I have to battle my flesh and my own selfish desires every single day. I don't need to... worry about whether or not I'm a super apostle. And that was such a relief to me to no longer have to feel that weight and that burden of the stress. And I think I've been out of, especially the Pentecostal Church of God for many years now, that I feel like a lot of that stress and weight. And I've worked through a lot of this stuff of the lies that I grew up with. But in listening to you, that brought back a lot of the, oh, yeah, remember that.

Just the bondage of that way of thinking and being under that bondage of lies. And just the way he talked, when you talk about how William Branham talked about women and stuff that, I don't know how to describe it because I don't have any specific memories. But I felt that in my core. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. You know, the real problem is a lot of these men learned by example, and they learned from a bad example. And then they teach churches by the bad example that they learned for the back to the tie, the not to beat the

dead horse on the tithe. But if the, if the system were working like the New Testament describes, there are people who actually are in need. And if they go to the church and they need support, there should be people, if their hearts were genuine, who would just help out. But the problem is you have the complexities of people. So you trust a man who's going to govern this. And that being the pastor, it's not that you're, you should be forced to do it, but your heart should be willing to see this poor person in the pew next to me. Let's, let's help them out. Well,

it's better for somebody to be the central source of helping them out. And so if they were to supply the needs of the poor in the church from the money that's given for the community and the tithing system, all of this would actually work. And then people by that example, they see the pastor giving this poor family food for their kids. Well, then they too want to help out and give food for the kids. And so it starts this thing that begins. But what we have instead is we want to be the next apostle or prophet or teacher or some spiritual Harry Potter. And so the people want

to be that instead because that's the example that they're given. And so the whole system becomes so bad, then complicate that by the era from which all of this developed, it's not just that William Brandham said these bad things. I've studied count.

less others who in that era, they were very, it was the era of discrimination, not just women, but against people with, you know, black people, people from Asian nations, etc. There was a lot of discrimination going on and you heard a lot of it from behind the pulpit.

And if you look at my website, you can even see it in the titles of their sermons. It's discrimination. So all of these men learn to discriminate and it's not that there are rules that you can go to and say, well, that is a discrimination rule, but it's a theme.

And so these themes enter the churches and that's probably what you're feeling. I wish I could definitely put a finger on it, but it definitely brought up some, some old icky stuff from the past that I can't, I said I can't articulate it well, but it was definitely there, but I am very thankful that I stumbled across your YouTube videos and all of your research and it's just interesting to me how, you know, the charismatic movement has put these people on such a pedestal, you know, William Brannum and for right.

And of course, my brain is forgetting all the other names of the, there's too many. Of the other people, you know, the Dowee, it was another one, Alexander Dowee and some of these other people who kind of brought the charismatic movement and it's just, it's really scary to realize that that's the foundation of this broader movement and it's, it is tainted from the very beginning.

It is and these weren't good guys, but many of them were labeled as quote, God's generals and yes, yes, I'll never forget when I started looking at Dowee, I could tell just simply based off of the same heresy that he was bringing, he was the prototype for what Brannum taught as this divine healing movement and if you carry it further, you can see traces of it going into the prosperity gospel because it was the prosperity of good health was basically the gospel.

And so I knew that was wrong, but I did not understand how much of a criminal this man was, you know, the fact that his entire ministry started because he stole the church was, it was just a little bit eye-opening.

And then I started seeing a pattern emerging and I'm one of these analytical thinkers, I want to know how something works. So my first thought, when I see this guy that's, he's literally a Christian mobster, well, I began to explore the thought of, well, was there a Christian mob?

I can see that there was a... a liquor mob was there also a Christian mob and I started connecting people and many of them were big names that are now quote unquote God's generals but they're operating and behaving in the same way and they share all of the if you look at the attributes and characteristics of the mafia and you examine what these men were doing it is the same exact thing and the people who are at the bottom all suffer in both cases mafia and Christian mafia so that's really what led me to explore all the paths of how how do this network emerge

what what caused this network to form and I'm convinced it you know like you said it was money but it wasn't just that it was the power these men liked people to view them as though they even if they weren't powerful they wanted to be the Harry Potter and you look at the modern apostles today the word apostle simply means one who it goes out and spreads the message of the gospel well which of these men are doing this you know you can say that you have a YouTube ministry or you have a televised ministry but yeah everybody does you know these days anybody can

have a YouTube so what are they doing that earns them this title and if you look at how they proclaim their title it is that they have power now they have a number of large following and they all just kind of appoint themselves right they annoying themselves as apostles and prophets and they don't pass any spiritual litmus tests for anything they just have a large following or they have a lot of money or whatever and it's yeah and they're not preaching the gospel they're not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ they're preaching a false gospel and they're

feeding many people astray and they're teaching a gospel that is of easy believism you we would sit in church and he would talk about well you know you want to get you want your life to you want the blessings of God to flow into your life you need to start giving to God and you need to start doing all of these things and you you'll begin to see God prosper you you'll get the job you've been praying for you'll get that house that you've been praying for and all of these things will start happening for you but you got to get right with God first if you want this stuff to

happen and I'm sorry but that's not the gospel of Jesus Christ that's not the same Jesus at all and so you have so many false comforts I believe in this movement going to church

worshiping a false Christ and a false Jesus actually a lot of these people are worshiping the pastors or the Apostle because that's who they put their faith in, because they're in love with the pastor.

They're in love with the man who's in front of them, and they are following him, and they worship him, and they worship him by giving him their money, their time, and their adoration. And all I can say is thank you, Lord.

I pray for those people, because I don't want to see anybody lost. I would love it if a lot of these big mega churches would empty out, if people's eyes would be open to the truth of the real gospel, and the real Jesus, and they would realize that they've been duped, and that it's a farce, and that they're being fed a gospel that's filtered through a faulty lens, and if they would come to know the real Jesus and wake up, and then these people would lose their flocks, but that they would, that the people in the church would come to know Jesus.

That, that is my prayer, because I, I know God is faithful. I mean, he, I guess I've always loved Jesus. I've always wanted to know the truth, and God has been faithful to me, and he's led me and my family out of that movement, even though we were on the fringes.

We almost, we, we started to get sucked in, but God rescued us, and we now, we now know who we serve. And we serve the God of the Bible, and Jesus, that was revealed to us in Scripture, and we are attending Bible, the leaving, Bible expositing churches, and I am so thankful for that, that we're no longer under that false system, and that we don't worship the Apostle, we don't worship this into the prophet.

I, I used to, there was this, um, couple that used to do email prophecies, and I would just be so anxious to hear what they're next, and because it was almost like beating my horoscope.

When I look back, I wouldn't read horoscope. Just, that was wrong, but I would look for their daily prophetic message to see if it could some way apply to me and encourage me. And, um, that's really sad, though, because that's not any different.

Then, then looking for a daily horoscope to see what's, you know, what's in it for me today. And, um, I'm thankful that Jesus rescued us, and that he has set our peak path straight for you.

a right path. Yeah. Horus, go prophetic ministry, Apostle Harry Potter, it's all, again, I find it so ironic that they condemn all these people for watching and it's a great movie. You know, if you'd not seen it, it's a great movie, but I've often thought about what would happen in these mega churches if they were to just actually start preaching the gospel.

And the problem is that it's like the newspapers, good news doesn't sell. You got to have the big story. There was a James Bond movie, I don't know if you remember it, but the villain basically created the news and he created his own disasters because that's what sold, right?

Well, a lot of these ministers are exactly like that James Bond villain because they create their own fantasy of the spiritual demonic forces so that they can be the apostle to go with their flaming sword and go attack them because it is a gospel of itching years that they're attracting people to.

And the problem is the same, and I'm not saying anything negative about the people that are sucked in, but there are a people who get sucked in because they do have itching years because it's human to have this interest.

When you hear the Harry Potter religion, you want to go see who Harry Potter is, right? Right. So these people get sucked in and it's so problematic. But once the gospel, the actual gospel is preached, it isn't a gospel for itching years.

And so those people who came just to see the signs, miracles, wonders, prophetic ministry, et cetera, qualify that dissipates and how could the church even still stand? So you know, my, I'm a little bit different because I see all people as people, even the big names and these big, mega churches, they have a history that led them down that path and I feel sorry for them that they're in that path.

But I also feel sorry for them because how do you get out of that? They've built this empire that if they were to actually start preaching the gospel, their whole empire crumbles and what do you do with that?

I've actually worked with ministers who were in the Brannum cults who decided to preach the gospel and their church is emptied and some of them struggle because their church is emptied and that has been their livelihood for, you know, some of them 50 years, right?

So I feel sorry for the ministers who are in that position, but I feel sorry for everyone, the people as well. If you could give some sort of encouragement to the people that are sucked into this thing, what would you say to them?

There are so many resources available on the, on YouTube and so many great podcasts. I would say one, keep reading your Bible. If you haven't read it, read it. Do find somebody who isn't connected.

to your strain, your church strain, find somebody outside of that, find a, what do they call a dead church? Isn't that what a lot of, he's curious, find somebody in a dead church. I use the word dead, I use the word apostate, it's all kinds of, and again, it's not just a gospel of rules, it is a gospel of insults as well.

To find somebody in a dead church that listened to somebody who actually teaches the scripture line by line and who teaches the history of the scripture, who exposits the scripture, who doesn't take 37 verses and push them all together to make it say what he wants it to say.

Get out of that echo chamber and find somebody who really begins to teach you the word of God and realize that what you're hearing is filtered through, one particular filter and that, you know, the fact that when, I just want to say, when you went back to, when you meant said, what do these people do?

What does that guy do if he stops preaching, he's going to lose everything, but that's what Christ calls us to do, right? If we're going to really surrender our lives to Christ, we have to be willing to lay it all down.

And the fact that these ministers who make millions and millions of dollars off of their supporters, off of their congregants, so if they aren't willing to lay it down, they don't want to lose it because that is their God.

They don't worship the God of the Bible. And so I would just encourage, even, and I do feel bad, like you mentioned, for the small pastors who begin to preach, and that's all they've known, and they begin to preach the gospel and they lose their congregants.

But I just want to encourage them, keep, keep preaching the word of God. And if you're in one of those churches that don't preach the gospel, get out, run, because you're being taught by a wolf, and they will devour you, but go run and find a Bible preaching, Bible-expositing church that will teach you the actual Word of God instead of all of this other nonsense.

If you're sending under a prophet, and you can't wait to hear his next message, if you're sending under a apostle, run, get out, you are being deceived, because there are no prophets and there are no apostles for today that get out, go find a church that actually preaches the Word of God.

I think that is good advice people need to get out, and just experience other churches is what I usually recommend, because the other problem that people have when they're trapped in this thing, and they've been in a gospel of insults against other Christians, they are sometimes afraid when...

enter a new church that they're entering the quote unquote apostate church or the you know there's so many different insulting names but then because they've been trained under that skepticism they engage hyperdrive a hypercritical thought against the new church where they had completely shut off their critical thought in the first church which is ironic if you really think about it and so they'll try to experience a new church and say yeah I went I didn't like it it wasn't like my old church that I left because it was heretical and so there's this vicious cycle

that in that never ends right I've talked about this with Chino Ross but the other thing is the urgency they embed this sense of urgency like you don't have time to experience a new church and it's a false sense of urgency you know to get rid of that be patient learn grow so if you could go back and you could say something to encourage your former self while you're trapped into this and give you hope that the gospel that you have now could be found what would you say to yourself to continue to just seek after Christ to not don't throw the baby out with

the bathwater don't get so frustrated with men's roles that you throw out God with them and don't don't give up on God man-made rules and regulations can be frustrating and overwhelming and feel like a prison but Jesus offers us freedom and true freedom and that he sets us free the truth sets us free and so I would just I would encourage myself to start looking sooner to get out to do really understand and not and I think what I did instead of when I heard something I didn't like I just kind of because being a preacher's kid I was kind of taught don't say anything bad against

preacher no don't have the preacher for lunch and so I would say actually have the preacher for lunch question him to over what he said and really question what you were just told and then research it is that true is that accurate is that what Christianity for the last 1900 years prior to Charismatics say is that what they were actually teaching and actually find out for yourself and and do some research in the age of the internet nowadays there's absolutely no reason no excuse to able to do that research and find out, but I would say that's the encouragement I would

give myself is I would say question harder, more often, and do your research. So that you don't get deeper in and get swallowed by it. That's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this with us.

I'm certain everybody who is listening is going to be encouraged by what you have to say and thank you so much. Thank you. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For an overview of the historical research of William Branum in the Healing Revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branum in his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.