Our Stories: An Interview With Erika Mooneyham

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org and with me I have my very special guest, Erica Mooningham, former message believer. Erica it's good to have you on here and to share your story with the world about your time in the message and your escape from it and maybe it'd be good if you just take a few moments and tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Yeah hi John, thank you so much for having me all here. So yeah I was born and raised in Tennessee and when I was a kid

I remember my grandmother always going to church and I started going with her to a church here in Tennessee and honestly because I wasn't exactly being taught at home the message I didn't understand it at first but then I kept going and what really started me into it was a cousin of mine said that I was going to go to hell because I wasn't wearing skirts and had long hair and I thought I don't want to go to hell right so I started to go to church and then in 2003 I went to the camp

and that's kind of when things changed and I thought okay yeah this is where I need to be and then I stayed in it until 2019. So what was it like growing up in the message? How did you feel when you were around other people your age who were both in the message and some people who were not in the message? What was life like for you? Yeah so that's a good question. I remember being told that it was being preached that we shouldn't have worldly friends so it was really difficult at school because I thought I shouldn't have worldly friends because I can be influenced

to go to the world if I did so it was very I had to find friends that believe the same way or whatever and I had to have a friend growing up in high school that went to the same church and I thought well I'll just be her friend at school and it was a little difficult for me in that sense which I think has caused me to be very socially awkward now because I'm going to stop.

I don't know how to really, I want to talk to people, but not people that doesn't understand my background. It's a little difficult as far as people in the message where I was going to church.

At first it was fine and then a never church family came from a different location and they merged with their church and it became very clickish and it was just really, it was difficult there to just because of the clickishness.

You and I share that, believe it or not, although it probably doesn't seem like it with me doing the podcast. I'm a little bit socially awkward. I grew up, my family was a bit different, you know, we were cult royalty so the rules weren't the same for me as they were other people in the message, but my father was one who was allegedly healed by William Brannum and his healing story was that he had rheumatic fever in high school and after his alleged healing he went on to win the physical fitness award in high school.

And so my father was never against going to high school, but I grew up with many people who were homeschooled and, you know, because of the harsh statements against the education system that William Brannum made during the battle against civil rights, the battle for equality, you know, a lot of people mistook that to believe that you weren't supposed to even have education.

So the fact that I went to high school at all is unusual in some cases, I know people who don't even have a, you know, a GED that were in this message. So I grew up somewhat socially awkward.

The problem for me was while being told it's okay and, you know, obviously going to school, I also was listening to preachers who were saying things like separate yourself in the world and do not be equally a yoked with the world.

And they would tie that to people who did not believe the cult rules. And so on one side of my head, pulling this direction is my family saying it's okay. And then on the other side was all of the, you know, the cult and doctrinations.

So it made me somewhat socially awkward as well. Yeah, I totally understand that. And what you mentioned there about education, that was the same here, right? Like women weren't really encouraged to go to college.

So I didn't. And the woman's place was in the home barefoot and pregnant, I mean, I'm in the South. So that's just the way it is. Barefoot and pregnant and the thing is, is that if you don't get married at a certain age and you're not fulfilling what you're taught that you're as a woman supposed to fulfill.

So that's been a struggle there for me too, along with the social awkwardness, now it's well, I'm have in my 30s, like late 30s, still not married, and I'm okay with it now. I'm totally okay. I can live a filled life without that, but then I felt like something was wrong with me because I wasn't married. I wasn't fulfilling my calling as a woman.

Right, I know other women who have, well, even women in the cult when I was in it, I knew women who felt somewhat guilty because they didn't have somebody once they reach. There was a quote-unquote age of marriage, and it feels awkward saying that now because that's ridiculous, but we had the age of marriage, and if you didn't find your companion by then, the women felt disgraced because, you know, the way the cult indoctrination, like you said, barefoot pregnant, chained to the stove, I know, I know women that have both sides of this because I went to churches from

from Arizona to South Carolina everywhere in between, and some cults had different rules. In some cases, I would go and there would, you know, women didn't have that constant pressure, and some women even went to get higher education before they got married, which for me was really unusual because I actually listened to these recordings of William Brannum, so I know what he said, but there were apparently churches that did not know the the rules that they were supposed to follow, and there were, there were women who who lived that way, but then there was a lot more, you know, and I look back at many of the other churches,

the majority of the women, their ambition in life, their sole ambition was just simply to get married and have kids, and now I look back at that, and they robbed so much more from the people than just money. I look at all of the unbelievable amounts of money that I gave in those tight baskets, but more than that, they robbed our lives, and especially for the women.

Yeah, I 100% agree on that, and you know, I've seen women who are absolutely gorgeous and very intelligent women who could do so much with their lives, and they're still single later 30s, maybe even early 40s, and it breaks my heart because it's this whole, you can't marry someone who is unequally gop to you, and if they don't believe the message, then you can't marry them. So it's so sad because I learned later on, of course, honey, clad yoked, if that's not what that means, it's not about that. It's, you know, our YouTube believe in Jesus, do you follow, are you a Christian, or are you not a Christian? And I understand the fundamentals.

of being unequally out there, like you don't, you know, but at the same time it's just so sad. It did rob a lot from women and it breaks my heart, even for myself, like I still get into the head space sometimes, like, you know, what is my purpose?

Because my whole life I've been told, that's my purpose, just to be married. And so now I've got to figure out what is my purpose, right? And John, I want to share this. I had a thought not too long ago that I wonder who I would be today if I was my authentic self from birth and never influenced by anyone else's opinions.

I'm still learning what do I like, what do I not like, it's been a journey for sure. You know, that's a big problem that many people face, especially the people that I've talked to in the support groups.

The things that most people experience as teenagers, we did not experience because we suppressed all critical thought and part of development for a teenager is critical thought. You have to process who you are, why you believe what you do.

If your parents are taking you to church, why are you going to church with them? I mean, those are normal thoughts that children have, but we weren't allowed to have those thoughts. And so when people escape and they start to deprogram, they suddenly realize that they're starting a journey that most people started at probably age 11 or 12.

And it is difficult. I had the same exact conversation not two days ago with another person. I look back at my life and we were doing well for ourselves, but I look back at some of the choices I've made and I'm not sure that I would have even made the same choices.

I'm fascinated with psychology and even though I did get higher education, I didn't finish it because it was discouraged to even go once I got into college and I got my associates degree. I never went on to my bachelors, but in hindsight, you know, looking through everything that I know now and all of my interests, I probably would have become a psychologist had I not had had not been influenced by this thing.

But remember, there were these constant phrases that kept coming out. Psychology is of the devil. It's one thing I remember hearing growing up because there were so many accusations against the faith healers that they were abusing psychology and mental techniques to try to influence the masses.

And now that I understand how that works, they absolutely were doing this. And that fascinates me. The fact that they could even do it fascinates me. So. Hi. I would not be the person that I am today had my authentic self, but one of the things that I tell people in the support groups is it's not really that uncommon.

There are many people in the world who would have made different decisions, had they not had a certain life experience, you know, good or bad. We came from a cult, ours was bad, other people have, you know, even sometimes good life experiences change the course of their lives, but, you know, in the end, their choices that we made, and I look at where I am now, I'm not really that unhappy with it, I just would have ended up slightly differently.

Yeah, I can definitely relate to you with not being unhappy with my life, I'm very happy where I am now, and I know that my journey and my path has led me to where I am.

It's actually been a very interesting and beautiful journey, and thinking back, like, I used to be so, I don't know the word for it, maybe Tim and Mortimer, very people-pleasy, I was always taught, like, keep the piece, don't stand up for yourself, like, it's not, you know, and now, because of this journey, I have learned, like, healthy boundaries, that's not what I was taught, it's just, I haven't seen healthy boundaries in the message at all, growing up, I haven't really seen many boundaries, you know, where I went to church, there was a smaller setting than some, and everyone knew everyone, right, so I love where I am now because it's huge,

and people don't know of your business, unless you share that with them, and I was just really, like, that kind of person who didn't know the healthy boundaries, and now I've learned them, and now I can stand up for myself, I can still be kind with it, but firm, and boy, I used to like, where my boundary line is, so yeah, I totally get that. So describe your church a little bit, whenever you were in the cult, and you were going to church, what was it like, did you, did you have questions, did they come, whenever, did the questions come while you were in the cult,

or did they come afterwards, did you believe, I believed it hookline and sinker when I was in the message, and, you know, I really had no question for the first 36 years of my life, 36 and a half, but what was it like for you, what was the church like, what were the people like, and were you fully indoctrinated, or did you question it? No, I was fully, fully in, like I said, back in 2003, I went to a pet camp, and after that, that's when I came.

everything I had to it. No matter what, like I was decided, I'm going to walk this alone because I know that this is it. So if I never get married, if I don't have support in walking this way, that's what I'm going to do. And for me, I was even the secretary of the church. I was the secretary. I was a camera sound media staff at the church and I was full on hand. And I actually started, I never had questions. I never, it never dawned on me that this could be wrong. But I started talking to a guy and then I eventually started dating him

and he had already left and I had told him like I, we can't want me together because we're unequally out. And so he was like, well, if the message is right and I am wrong, then police show me that it's right. And I was like, okay, so I started on this journey, like I'm going to bring him back in and on this journey, I realized like because he actually sat down and he put together over 7,000 quotes of William Brennan saying whether he was a prophet or not a prophet.

And it was the quote before and after he needed, you know, to make sure that the context was there. So it's not taken out of context. And he spent months doing this because, you know, we had agreed, we cannot be together unless we're agreeing. And he was like, well, I don't, he didn't want me to stay in a cult. So he put this together. I was reading it. I remember laying on mega couch and I had hit a certain specific thing where I had heard or I read where William Brennan said, you know, believe me as your prophet, you believe I'm God's prophet. And then in a prayer he says,

God, as your prophet, the thing is, it's about this document. It was all dated. It was, you know, all in order, dated in order. So it's not like it was backtracking at all. And then suddenly, I read where he said his, I'm, I never said I was a prophet. The people say that. I thought, I've already something pages in here. Like you said that you dropped the whole time. And I'm like, this isn't lining up. And so instead of calling him, I called a friend of mine who had already left. And I said, hey, can you share your story with me? She said, have you spoke with your pastor?

And I thought that was a great answer. And I said, well, I've spoke with his wife and she's telling me there are no answers. And I thought at that moment, even the pastor's wife has said, there's no answers. I thought, I can't follow something that I can't explain. I can't, I can't follow something that I can't follow.

thing that I feel like is a lie because I just caught him in a lie and it's not winding up. So then she told me haircut doesn't line up and that was my final decision.

I remember doing that same exact exercise whenever we were leaving the message and you line all this quotes up and you know it's more than just him saying something that's not true. As you line them up and you're reading them chronologically, he's saying, I never said this, he's like you said, he's introducing himself as a prophet and his prayers, etc.

But then you get down deeper into it and you can see that he's even manipulating people into thinking that he's a prophet. And again, that's why I'm so fascinated with psychology as you read through this and see what that man was doing to the people's heads. It's unbelievable.

I did a similar exercise on the collections because he would often say, never once in my entire life have I ever taken a collection. And then in another sermon, here, give me your money.

And there's one audio clip. I've put it out on the website somewhere, but he and Franklin Hall are together and Franklin Hall is saying, what are we going to start with brother Brannum and he says, money, that's it, money. And they're both laughing at it like, you know, it's a game to them because they just pass a basket and they get rich. And it wasn't until I think it was night, I think it was 2015 or so. I found an article from the early his late 40s, maybe 46 or 47, where it was describing William Brannum's campaign team. The newspaper reporters had gone to see them and going exiting

the tent where they were holding the revivals, it took two big sturdy men to carry the boxes of money from from the tent revival. And I'm scratching my head thinking, well, that's that's before he even ever made the statement never in my life. I've ever taken any money and they've got boxes of money. So the whole thing, if you line it up and take that exercise with almost every single thing that the man said, and you're going to find him saying polar opposite from one point to the next. Yeah, absolutely. And not only did his words not line up with his own words, but it doesn't

line up with the Bible. I mean, I remember one day because I ended up moving in with my ex-boyfriend, and I remember he came in one day and he asked me specifically, hey, was Inokinowa on Earth at the same time? And I was, I don't know even how I knew and I just go, no, he said, are you sure?

Because Brannum preached that they were. And we went through like so many different studies together, learning, unlearning, and re-learning together. And it's mind-blowing at how off of the Bible that he was. And that's the thing, if something's not lining up with the Bible, I cannot follow it.

So right now, at the church I'm at now, we're actually going through the book of Revelation. And it is very interesting because the way we were taught is so different than the way it really is.

And I love learning what the book of Revelation really says just straight from the Bible and not with Brennan's interpretation of it. Yeah, there's just so much there that, you know, if you read the Bible and you compare it to his sermons, it's clear that the man has never ever read the book for his entire life. He's never read it.

And yet, he even admitted, he said, I don't know the book real well, but I know the author. But then he proceeds to become a Bible teacher. And he's teaching things that aren't even in it.

And whenever he tries to teach something that he thinks is in it, it's not in it. And I went through, again, I went through the same exercises, studying Revelation. And the statement about Enoch and Noah, that led me down a path that, gosh, I probably spent two or three years on.

Because the only place that I could find where you could make that connection was fragments of the book of Noah. We don't even have the whole book. And it's not even a biblical book.

I think it was included in maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls or something like this. But it was a Gnostic book, basically. And that led me down the path of Gnosticism, which was fascinating. I recommend highly that if anybody has left this movement or any of the splinter groups that developed from it to study Gnosticism, because that's exactly what this movement was based off of.

But I agree. I began studying the Bible. I read it, covered a cover, and lost count. It was 10 or 15 times. And as I'm reading it, and I'm studying, you know, the things that he said so that I could be solid in my decision after leaving, there was just no comparison. The man had never, ever read the book.

I definitely agree with that, John. Especially when you start to realize all of the plagiarisms and all of the things that he even says, like, came straight from God. It's in fresh mana. And then you find out later someone's written a book about it or preached a sermon on it.

And it's just so sad. It's sad. And that's why I had to walk away. And the thing is, is I have family members who are still in it. And I don't know how to approach that with them.

because it's just so sad and it's not my place to just start bashing, of course I don't, but start bashing the message or anything to anyone, but I didn't even brought up the Enoch and Noah saying to a family member, and they said, family member, it looks at me and goes, well maybe Brethren had a higher revelation, and I'm like, more than the Bible, I have a higher revelation than the Bible, like maybe God told him something that he didn't put in the Bible, and I'm like, oh wow, so there's just no talking to them, and it's sad,

because my heart goes out, I don't want anyone to be believing a lie. Right, and for anybody who was never in the message called of William Branum and is unfamiliar with what we're talking about, Branum's rapture theology, which was one of the most fundamental elements of his entire religion, was that the rapture that is soon to come in his interpretation of the Bible, the rapture that is soon to come would be similar to, he called it a type, the type of Enoch and Noah, and he said that Enoch lived 500 years on earth to live with Noah,

and then Enoch was raptured away, and Noah was imperfect, and he typed, he quote unquote, typed Noah to the modern church, so he was essentially saying that Enoch would be raptured away like his cult of personality, while the whole rest of the Christians on earth would have to suffer the tribulation, and that's his rapture theology in a nutshell, but to believe that rapture theology, you have to believe that the Bible is incorrect about the number of years that Enoch was on earth, the Bible says 365, William Branum, and the fragments of the book of Noah,

I think it's the fragments of the book of Noah, say 500, but so you found this and you're starting to realize that William Branum's not quite honest or not quite reputable in his Bible teachings, what was the one thing that you would say that made you suddenly snap out of it and realize that the whole thing was a cult? Yeah, like I said, whenever I read that quote that I never said, I was a prophet, people say that I remember laying on my couch and falling, and I had a death in the family, and I grieved, and I grieved, and I grieved, but still there was a little part of me

that always questioned, well, questioned it up to a certain point, that questioned, am I wrong? Am I missing something? Like, this can't be right, so I combed through study after study with my ex-boyfriend.

friend, and we wanted to make absolute certain that we were not just missing something. So the biggest thing for me was that the more that we searched, the more that we found. And that was really devastating, and it wasn't, it wasn't, he said, she said stuff.

I remember my ex actually started me, he started me out on your podcast, John, and I had the YouTube ones. And I remember like saying, I can't, you know, this is just a man's word.

I can't do this, and it was just why I could put my own link and write them quotes together. And I think it was really the cigarette pack that got me to it where he talks about how that there was a cigarette pack, the thinking man's filter.

And one place he says that he picked it up and he turned it over, another plate, you know, and he got revelation, or the vine, you know, revelation to preach that from that. And another place, oh no, I didn't pick them up, I'd be dearest on the day, do a thing like that, those things are nasty.

And so I saw, okay, either you have lied about it, or you disobeyed God. If God told you to pick it up and you didn't, you disobeyed, or you're lying about the whole entire story.

And I just cannot follow something that is not, I mean, it's, it's a lie, no. And then you talk to other people and they all have a different story. If this was true, then why is it that there's so many people that finally made their final decision on different stories?

I can tell you, I've talked to several people and I'm like, oh, I didn't even know that story and that's what led you out. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

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On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. Yeah, and it seems so, and it's a You think about a cigarette pack and that being able to help somebody just snap out of it, but I remember that because that was a it's not the thing that made me suddenly decide to leave, but it was a fundamental milestone in that decision because it's not just a cigarette pack that is the issue and it's not even whether he disobeyed God that's the issue.

He is clearly saying in one instance that either an angel or God spoke to him and said pick the thing up, and then another one he's saying that he's not. Well, when I carried that research out to its full and complete study that I could do, I found out that he stole the whole idea from Billy Graham.

It was a Billy Graham sermon, the thinking man's filter, and then suddenly I'm like, you know, this man was clearly lying. Not only was he lying, he was trying to steal ideas from other people so that he could lie.

And I began to realize that, you know, there's too many things wrong with this. This is just one of a hundred things that I'd probably found by this point, but there are too many significant flaws in the message.

And suddenly the thought hit me that I grew up and I didn't catch any of this and how did I not catch it? I knew these tapes, I listened to them over and over and over again.

And I look at the ministers, they have one job to do, one single job, and that's to study it so that they can preach about it. And every sermon, if you go here, a minister that's in the cult, they're not preaching Bible, they're saying, well, you and Brandham said this and well, you and Brandham said this other thing and this other thing.

So they're actually studying these sermons. They had to have known every single thing that I found with just, it wasn't long. I want to say it was like two or three months of searching.

Some of these men have done this for 50 years. There is no way that they did not know that he lied about whether or not he picked up the cigarette pack. And so, you know, me being in the cult royalty, I'm suddenly faced with this even worse thought. Many men that I knew and respected.

And some of the men were family. There's no way that they didn't know this and they're also helping to spread the lie. You know, I know that I spoke to my pastor's wife and I know other people who spoke to lowx pastor and I know other people who also brought up different things to him.

And it's like if you are researching this and you're going back in here and trying to find answers for people who are coming to you with questions, there's no way that you can't not see it.

And I actually heard one, I heard one minister, not my pastor, but I heard a do- one who literally said on one of his sermons that he studied it, he considered leaving the message, and then he decided not to. If you get to a point where you see so many issues that you consider it, I mean I don't understand how you don't, you don't just leave it. And honestly, in my opinion, it just boils down to security, money, comfort, and it's like instead of seeing the truth and helping people to see the truth. What you

said though about him stealing that from Billy Graham, I came across the same thing because whenever I searched it in the table in the database, that's one of the first things that comes up is where William Brown is literally saying, oh did you hear that sermon from Billy Graham?

But he even tells on his self with that, and I was just like, oh my goodness, and I've struggled with the same thing. How did I not see it before? I mean, I was media staff. I was constantly putting in all of the sermon notes. I was constantly doing something. I was a separate area of the church. How did I not come across any issues prior to being like shown all of these quotes? It's mind blowing. It is very mind blowing. And take it a step further, think about the people who are working to help publish this stuff. For years, they

have read it, they've indexed it, they have listened to the recordings over and over as they're making quote unquote, making the quality better. I sometimes question that, but they go through this exercise. So they are deep in it in the same way that I was whenever I just suddenly started studying and realized that this whole thing was a lie. These people did this. They knew this. And I've heard the argument said by someone who escaped late in their life that maybe it's because the internet searches and the computer software searches are available and they didn't have it back then. So maybe they just didn't notice it.

But I look back at some of the people that I knew who left years ago, years before the internet, and they had those same indexes. You could easily go pick them up at Voice of God recordings. And with the index, you've got topics and you can go search it. One guy, he told me his story of how he escaped and he didn't have an internet search. He just used the index and he was looking up everything that Brandon said about the cloud, which everybody, well, everybody knows right now that that is a, that was completely false, that whole story.

Well, he, he found out that it was false and he did so by looking at the index and he listened to the sermons and he would just take notes of what Brandon said on each sermon.

And then when you line up what he said, you know, time by time, none of it really matches. It doesn't make sense. And the whole story transitions. And, you know, years later, now we have the newspaper articles and we can see that he wasn't even in the state.

He was helping a transgender person escape from death row. And the whole thing just, it's absurd when you think about it. So after you escaped, your life has changed and you're doing well for yourself.

You understand the issues with the being in front of people. I have the same thing, but what would you say is the number one freedom that you have with your new life that you did not have before?

Just looking back, John, I see how much fear I lived in that I don't live in anymore. And it was all rules and it was, if you do this, this is gonna happen, if you do that, you're gonna go to hell.

I don't have that fear anymore. It's such a freedom to know what the Bible actually says. It's also a freedom to have a relationship. Now what's interesting, people ask me now, like if I am a religious person and I tell them, no, I'm not a religious person and I don't believe in religion, I believe in a relationship.

Because to me, religion hurts people. And that's what I grew up in, that religion was hurting people. So I believe in a relationship, I am a Christian and I go to church and I go to a church where we just go straight through the Bible.

So we take a book of the Bible and chapter by chapter and just find out what it actually says and it's so freeing to know what the Word of God says. And now there's things, it took me a long time to be a very long time to change any outward appearance because it was especially for women, all about outward appearance.

So it took me a long time to get to that point and what I got to that point, it was like I went so far with it. So I did, of course, cut my hair, trim it, I still do and I, because I wanted to look healthy, I wanted to look good.

And even with wearing pants, it took me a long time after I started wearing them to get to the point where in my mind that wearing dresses is okay and it's very feminine, it's very pretty.

And it's just because it's a thing for me, a trigger in my mind that that's the way it always was. And now I'm at the point where I'm starting to find a balance. I tell people, it's funny, I tell people jokingly, but now that I look back, it's probably not jokingly that at this point I've probably done everything except get a tattoo and that's probably on the list at some point, you know, but it's just, It is so freeing to know that it's not all about rules and it's not if you mess up here that God is a God with a big stick ready to smite you.

It's just freeing to know that. I had a person who had left the message and they were asking me, you know, they left a religion of rules and it was awkward because as I was working in support groups, people would contact me privately and ask what the new rules are.

They were asking me, is it okay to get tattoos? And I'm not, you know, I'm not a minister. I'm not a pastor. I'm not the person to ask this question. And before I realized that that's how I had to answer every single question like that, I thought it was a little bit funny that they were asking me.

And I said, well, the body's the temple. You ought to decorate it.

That it didn't go over well, but that's just my nature. I think, I see the humor and everything, but not a pastor. I'm not the one to ask that kind of advice. Go get a pastor if you have those kind of questions, but it's true.

We were raised in a religion of rules and that religion was very harmful and I to have a distaste for the word religion because of it. In fact, in I'll admit this openly, I have a distaste for using the word Christianity even because in the message called Christianity was used to abuse the people.

And whether or not the ministers believed in God, I actually question whether some of them actually did, especially William Branham. You don't lie like this and believe God. You just don't do it. So I have questions whether or not they did and whenever somebody comes up to me in the business world even, I have this happen.

People will come up and they will try to advertise the fact that they're Christian so that I'll give them a good deal or whatever in business. And that really tells me nothing about the person because of this lack of trust that was developed, I actually have more skepticism when they tell me this, which that's wrong.

That's something that I need to work through. But I get exactly what you're saying whenever men have abused something like this, something that should be good, then you start to have problems with it.

And so what I go back to is I always go back to the passage that Jesus said, love your neighbor, love God above all else, love your neighbor as yourself. And whenever I'm trying to rewire my thoughts about religion and Christianity, I go back to that verse, that's what it's supposed to be.

What these men did, what it was wrong, that's not where it should be. They abused it and what they had was not religion, it was not Christianity. It was religion, it was not Christianity, it was just a false religion.

And I try to rewire that, but I'll openly admit, I have the same exact struggle. Yeah, I don't see how someone that came through what we did wouldn't have that struggle. And you know, I've been thinking lately too, like, what is people going to remember the most?

What does people remember the most about us? It's not going to be like our hair or what we wore. We put so much thought into that, right? Like what do we look like, our hair, you know, um, and things like that?

Like even I and I tell someone the other day, like even my eye color, whenever I'm no longer here on earth, like some people are going to forget that. Even people that I pass on a daily basis, they're not going to remember anything like that about me.

But what they are going to remember is how I treated them, is how they felt when they left my presence. And I think that's really what it boils down to is being a good person, a good decent human being, being honest and not pushing an agenda on someone that's your agenda.

This is my personal opinion, this is how I live my life. And it's taken me a long time to get there. Um, it's funny. I'm literally the least, the least, the least judgmental person ever.

And I was told, even by my ex before, like I was told that I used to be super judgmental. Well, yeah, because that's how we were taught to be very judgmental of people and critical.

I completely understand the, what you said earlier about the trust issues, where you automatically start like having this thought in your mind, I don't trust you, you know. Well, yeah, I mean, we've been liked to most are almost all of our lives.

And that creates a huge trust issue. I have huge trust issues with that. And then it's sad because I thought about, I thought about what does the message produce in someone's life. Well, you know, like I said with my ex, I was in a relationship with him.

He had come out of the message as well. And the thing is that we still have that message mentality and it was still there for him too. And there was a lot of like mental work, well, some kind of control there.

But there was more of like mental abuse and mental this, you know, like as far as that goes, it's more very selfish, very selfish motives. But also I think that the message produces a lot of narcissism.

And I've seen that with the leaders, I've seen it with, it is more of a mental thing. And that's damaging because when you've gone through, especially covert narcissists, when you've gone through that mental...

used, people can't tell like they could if you were physically used. And that's what it was in the message for me. And then I entered into a relationship that was basically the same thing that I couldn't see because I can't recognize red flags when they feel at home, right?

So there was just a lot of that going on. So my view of religious foundation, everything that I knew, like it had just crumbled. And then not long after that, like my relationship crumbled.

And then I had to just start completely over. And it's been hard and it's definitely been a journey with that. So a whole lot of work. That's for certain. I, you know, for me, it was similar.

I can't really point to one single thing that caused me to decide to leave. And in fact, my story, well, I've shared a few times. But for me, it was like an almost instant on off, but suddenly I realized this whole thing has faults.

And one day I'm reading the Bible of same exact chapter and the next day I read that same chapter and it said two different things. And my head just kind of woke up. But there was a progression of me escaping and I look back now at all of the things that I considered to be greatly important that caused me to decide to leave.

And if I were to sum them up, really what happened was I came to understand that the cult dehumanized the people in it. I look at all and I compare back to that passage, Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself.

You didn't do that. You know, we did not love the other Christians in the world. In fact, you can listen to ministers. They would be happy if every single person who has left a message were to burn in hell forever.

In fact, one, one minister said something very similar to that. They would be happy. And I can't live like that. I love all people. I don't want to see anybody suffer. I don't want to see anybody hurt.

But we were manipulated to dehumanize people to such an extent that we wanted them to hurt. We wanted them to suffer. If the prophet said one thing, the quote unquote, prophet said one thing and somebody didn't believe it.

Well, I wanted them to suffer because they didn't believe it so that they could see that the prophet was true and that's ridiculous. That is a dehumanizing religion. It's a false religion. So glad I'm so glad you're out.

I'm so glad I'm out. If there was one thing that you could go back in time and tell your former self while you was in it, to give yourself some encouragement, what would that be?

John, I would tell my former self that one day it's going to be okay. One day you're going to be very, very strong. One day you're going to be a- will choose to stand up for yourself and make it in this world without all of these mental abused things going through your mind.

You're going to be free. You're going to be free and I just, I just, I love that there's a freedom there and it's not, like I said, it's not all rules and it's not all of the mental abuse anymore.

Well, that's very good advice. We as our family left, we tried many different churches and for me, I was really, I didn't know what I was searching for, but I came to understand that I was searching for a place where people weren't dehumanized and where that passage was actually the premise for the entire church's motivation, love God above all else, love your neighbor as yourself and the church that we, we went to a few of them, the one one we're at now, they have a huge outreach program working with the people who are in need and, you know, people who are not as fortunate

as we are and that I can get behind that, whether you go to church or not, that's something that people should get behind and, you know, I tell people who are in the support groups who have left the message, who are struggling with the idea of going back to church because of those trust issues. The question is often, which one do I go to, what denomination?

And I instantly say, try them all, go to one, find what you like, take note of it, find what you don't like, take note of it and try another one. And, you know, in the end, you'll find, you'll find a good fit for yourself, who you are and what you believe. And honestly, when you leave a cult, you go through this progression, what you believe one week may, may not be the same thing that you believe the next week. That's really hard, actually, because everyone has a different journey. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And I look forward

to seeing you more in the support group. I'm watching you, you know, communicate with others and you're starting to help others and things that you're saying. So very glad to have met you and very glad that you shared your story with us. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branham.org.

For an overview of the historical research of William-Branham and the healing revivals, read preacher behind the white hoods, a critical examination of William-Branham and his message, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.