Converging Apostasy: Will The NAR Go That Far?

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have Steve Montgomery, the author of The Converging Apostasy, and a quick outline of hands-gone eschatology, a matter of timing and agency. And together we're discussing the themes of apostasy in the New Apostolic Reformation and its history. Well, Steve, today is an exciting day for me. I finished my editing on my latest book, and I received my proof copy of weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR, and I've been, as you know, I've

been, had all kinds of irons in the fire. So it wasn't until just early this morning I pulled up the notes for this episode, and it relates very closely to the content of this book. So it's going to seem like this entire episode is an advertisement for this book. However, it's more actually of an advertisement for your book, which is The Converging Apostasy. So this is where The Converging Apostacies converge in our books. Yeah, how about that? And congratulations on the book. And a lot of people will be looking forward to reading that. I will

also be looking forward to it. And as always, I think it will spark new discussions, hopefully wake up some folks open their eyes. It certainly will. It as I mentioned right before this episode, it almost reads as though it is a direct response to international house of prayer. But I started this book long before I even really made the all of the connections between IHOP and William Brannum Laterane. I was aware of some of it, but nowhere near the depth of information that ties it to together. So as I was reading, as I was proofreading it, my wife and I were starting to see the name pop up everywhere.

But definitely Christian identity swayed the movements of, you know, everything that is made up the NAR, which you and I have previously discussed. And I, you gave me the title for this episode right before we started the podcast. In the book, I wish I'd ended it on that sentence, but will the NAR go this far? It is really, it's insane when you think about all of the doctrinal themes that have emerged into the NAR, because everything that the Bible says that is going to play out in the end of days as it relates to Satan and his demons,

we see the NAR is embracing it as though it's a holy thing. So you have to really ask the question, well, which team are they batting for? Yeah, that's right. And I've seen podcasts at other locations where this topic is being brought up quite a bit.

And to throw into one of the NAR names, one of the younger generation guys, the Lance Walnall, that's pronouncing him right, seems to really, really be going this way. I saw podcasts recently that I already knew about Michael Flynn having big connections with the NAR, but actually there's two other generals or retired generals that are directly associated with, I believe, Rick Droner's spot.

I'm not gonna say stuff to think correct, but I saw something very, very interesting about that because when you have the, the idea that the NAR has is about the end times and the idea is of dominion and eventual purge, you really wouldn't want military leaders to be involved in that kind of stuff.

So anyway, yeah, and that is funny, talking about how far things would go and what the Bible has to say, what Jesus said, what his apostles had to say. Every morning I'll get up and other things will come up to be done.

But one of the first things I do is I get my Bible on the read at least a chapter and I pretty much go through the New Testament, start over, and I'll read other things, but I'll just keep circulating on that.

And the reading I had this morning, ironically, was 2 Corinthians 11 and you know how, there's things that it wasn't in the original writing, but a lot of translations of the Bible put a little caption there for you.

And this one says Paul and the false apostles. So I said, yeah, you know, that's pretty apropos. But John, I think I have to preface some of the information I have here today with this comment.

I can say this will probably be the most controversial and speculative podcast that I've ever done with you. It will outline the possibility that the NAR is actually leading to a false kingdom with a false Christ.

And so I asked a question like so, I say, could this convergence with new age goals of revival? surviving the pre-Christian mystery religions and establishing a world religion under a non-Christian leader referred to as the Christ.

Of course, we see that in Alice Bay, they know the New Age teachings quite a bit. And some were to took a Nahr and the latter reign, they put a high premium on making it happen through human efforts.

You can see that very clearly in Alice Bay, it's not like it's gonna happen because we pray hard, it's gonna be the work of those who are looking to establish the kingdom here on Earth.

So I guess you'll get a grin out of this one, having been so associated with William Brandon. But the question comes up is, how seriously should we take the New Age author, Alice Bayley?

When she says that the spiritual hierarchy and the reappearance of the Christ will be externalized in 2025, well, I guess that could be a rabbit hole to go down to the New Age. John, what do you think about stuff like that?

You know, I don't go much into the conspiracy theories, but you look at, what is it, Project 2025? There's all kinds of different, you know, weird things that are happening in the world. And I, you know, even though I don't go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories, I do entertain history and trying to look at instances where history repeats itself.

And you mention it's odd that they're having military figures come in and teach the theology. Well, you go back to the birth of Christian identity, they were bringing in military figures and they were introducing the Christian identity, actually it was British, Israelism and its inception, but introducing it into the religious world through military leaders.

And they had key military figures involved. And in fact, C.A.L. Totten was in the military and he was one of the authors of the book called Strategos for Military Strategy. So you see the history repeating itself and you see the types of things that the religious leaders will do.

And I also, you know, I've looked at the project 2025, I think that's what it's called, but I've looked at some of the research, but not from the viewpoint of a conspiracy theorist. Instead, I look, well, what are their links between the religious leaders and Christian identity?

And then once you find those links, suddenly, like, oh my gosh, this might come to a reality. Yeah, and that's funny, you mentioned folks that had the military background. I thought that, you know, you can probably read too much into this, but I thought it's interesting that one of the central...

or profits of the latter rain who was deeply influenced by Jane Leigh 17th century mystic. Bill Britton was a second world war paratrooper and so more power to enforce serving his country, but it could have informed some of his ideas about the judgment day and I don't know, it just strikes me as unusual on a way that you'd have those two currents together.

So I asked this question, I'd say, what is the converging apostasy and how is it predictive in scripture? Well, we can pretty much say what it isn't and this will probably sound similar to NAR.

It's not a billion person harvest of souls rather than what the Bible says falling away. It's not the line signs and wonders which anybody who's looked into Bethel Church and Bill Johnson, would get a big dose of that.

Like the biblical passage I was reading this morning, the chapter in Corinthian, the second Corinthians. It's not these false apostles and prophets, which pretty much means all of those who say that they have been restored to the church today as in CPR where I do just list any of the NAR prophets and you got that.

Also, you got that from the 1948 letter A in the book. It's also not this false kingdom set up and established few human hands to human agency who say that they will be really for Christ before his personal return.

It's also not a control of the means of buying and selling. We hear about that in the book of Revelation. And for Peter Rager and for Jane to lead interestingly, lead NC Peter Rager do talk about this year of Jubilee in different language from each other.

And then six, it definitely is not a dictator like false Christ,

but as I've mentioned in my books and I think probably to you, John, what happens with that is when you align the end time order of events, such as the things being glorified, them in this day and ruling the reign of Christ in the judgment day, carrying out the written judgments of God as Bill Hammond and others say.

Then what actually happens is that both the new age side or whatever it's been called now, just ascetic thinking in the letter reign, nourish sort of stuff, they both end up receiving who may ever comes first.

So is the now on the same path of apostasy? that Jane Leade and others like Alice Bailey have sent before us? You know, when you mentioned the year of Jubilee, that's loaded language for me out of the Brannum and the Laterane call that he spearheaded.

Starting in, I think it was 1954, he started preaching year of Jubilee theology and considering that he had already embraced the manifested sons of God theology, now it becomes a militantly forced year of Jubilee, and he was preaching that until 1964, I believe, and in fact, I've got the quote up, in 1964 he's talking about the year of Jubilee means that there will be a gathering together of the people, and he tied that to all different Bible passages.

So what the Laterane created, the NAR, further used to adopt to their end of days revival scenarios, and they were just literally just copying and pleasureizing this thing from its inception. But the interesting part for me is whenever I see how they have taken the worst parts of what Brannum taught, and then chose the very worst parts as their core theology, now it becomes an even more militarized version within the NAR than even what William Brannum taught, although Brannum was tied to all of these different, you know, very sinister groups that we've mentioned, he never outright said some of the things that they said in the

NAR today. Yeah, that's really amazing, and again, I've been seeing some podcasts being produced by some other folks that really reflect what you're talking about there, John. So question comes up to me is, what does paid the way towards the false kingdom with the false Christ?

Since we're talking about, or I'm saying, convergence between two sides of the coin here, well, the past starts as far as I can see with sort of like a multi-faceted goddess who I've mentioned is Sophia in the esoteric world.

But it ends up with a white-washed reframing of the devil as he's so-called illuminating savior called Lucifer, the being of light. So one of the themes that helps to pay this way is the theme of the multi-faceted goddess, that's what I call this idea in my books, is that she functions sort of like a midwife to the devil reborn.

Another thing is ongoing revelation, because that definitely produces the mindset and the way of gathering new information outside of Christianity. And so you can see this clearly. from Jane Leade, from all the profits of the ladder rings, especially those who are directly influenced by Jane Leade.

You see it with the NAR, obviously, and then esoteric folks like Alice Bailey. There's constantly this new thing, and you know, all about that, John, and where do you get new things, where you don't necessarily get them from the Bible, you get them from this other group that's already found those new things?

Then the third thing I think of is these two streams of convergence of apostasy. Had the same sources, and apparently point to the way of the same restoration of their version of whatever they're gonna call the mystery religion, or maybe just trying to make it more baptizing Christian, I like to say, they're kind of gone.

So, but the more direct thing about the mystery religions, you'd definitely see that through desotericist Helena Blavatsky and one of her disciples, previously mentioned Alice Baby. But John, you're probably aware that there was a script had a lot to say about Plato and the mystery religions as being ways that the truths about the race were conveyed and protected.

For Eiffelysifer is presented in the guise of this goddess like Sophia and not as the malignant Satan or devil of Hollywood, then you get this other thing that's kind of promoting, essentially going down devolution, hopefully not a pun, but just sliding down the hill and two things that are not gonna work out well for Christians and for others.

But five, all they know, something that really allows this stuff to flow is it sounds like no big deal when you think about it, but as you see, the words fleshed out in the teachings and the new age, teachings from Jane Leed and some of her disciples, that is the reconciliation of all opposites.

Say, okay, that could be a man in well and unsure. But whoops, that could be good and evil and literally in the teachings of a lot of these folks, that means the reconciliation of Christ and Lucifer.

Well, if we think about scripture, not a direct quote, but how can there be a connection between good and evil? It just doesn't happen. It makes what could have been good, evil, and probably more evil because it's posting as something Christian.

So I found something interesting about this in a piece that was, this is by Bruce McClennan. It's called Dante and the Fetalee de Amor. I have no French. a place so they close. And he says that the eternal womanhood, this spiritual being aka Sophia, will reconcile all these opposites. Interesting. So this reconciliation of all opposites is spoken of directly by lead, by two of her disciples in the lettering movement, Larry and Betty Podges, and they're at Shofar Ministries, also spoken of by Alice Bailey. Now this is a real zinger, it's also spoken of by Charles Manson, not that he was a great theologian, but he made comments

about joining Christ and the devil, and that he exemplified this better than his disciples, but think of this too. So they were apparently on the right path for him. Then a very strange group out of England during the, you know, you could say the hippie years or the late 60s.

That was the process church of the final judgment. It was led by Robert DeGrimston and his wife Mary Ann McLean. So they literally talked about the devil and Christ joining together, and this would be the end times, and this would bring about the judgment. And then of course you have spread up from Aleister Crowley's Gnostic Church, the reconciliation of differences. So, you know, folks when they think, ooh, you know, Aleister Crowley's got horns coming out of his head, and he's got a red cape and a pitchfork. Maybe in some things because he'd like to dress up,

if you ever see pictures of him, John. But he's talking about reconciliation. Oh, you know, somebody who's not in the church, even some folks who are in the church, if they didn't hear the name Aleister Crowley, they would say, yeah, Christ is going to reconcile all things.

And so it's just the way it's spoken in the ends to which it points to that makes it bad. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Aleister Crowley again. I get so many questions about all of these different movements from Brannemism to the NAR and all of the movements in between.

There, once you tie Brannem to people like Aleister Crowley or the NAR to Luciferian people, they're the instant question that comes in the mind of somebody who escaped this is that there's this secret cult where they're all wearing black robes and they're all practicing Luciferian sayances or I don't know what they do in these things, but there's this notion that there's a conspiracy that these people are Luciferians who are disguised as Christian ministers and they've created this movement. But It really isn't that black and white.

You've got people who, you know, the laterane movement, you didn't have to have good solid theology. All you had to have was somebody who you could impress spiritual prophet or apostle who was impressed with you enough to lay his hands on you and prophesy and then boom, you got a ministry.

Well, some of these people who made it into the ministry, they came out of things like this. So they had the ideas of, you know, very pagan ideas, but suddenly they married their brand new Christian theology with their pagan backgrounds.

And then suddenly they're a minister and in their mind, their only frame of reference really are these ideas that we're talking about. So it starts to enter their ministry. Then you combine that with people like Jane lead who clearly had influences from nosticism, et cetera.

And then those people, when they make that connection and they see this as a godly move, this Jane lead and all of it splinter groups, suddenly they're tying their ideas that they gathered from Alistair Crowley and whoever else, they're tying that to the nostic themes from Jane lead.

And it creates what you've called the converging apostasy, but for these ministers, they see it as this new divine revelation. And for an entire audience that is trained to look for something new, that's one of the constant themes.

You're always looking for something new, never just back to the Bible. Well, they could come up with these things that they heard from their past, such as Alistair Crowley, and then give it a Christian spin and it's brand new.

And suddenly everybody likes it. They're suddenly popular because they've quoted Alistair Crowley. And when you take a step back and you just think about that in of itself, it's just mind boggling that so many people adopted this and called it Christianity.

Yeah, when you're talking about some of those things, I was writing down a couple of items here. One is that John Robert Stevens, who was considered a latering prophet, he broke off and hit his own cult, which we've talked about before, the Church of the Living Word, and also the walk, you know, by that name.

But he actually had a very well-stocked esoteric library and he said, you see, what happens is the devil counterfeits all this good stuff we get from the esoteric world. Well, on behold, he was well versed in Alistair Crowley and some Swedenborg, Emmanuel Swedenborg, was one of the other folks he really was interested in.

So, Owen, you mentioned the laying on of hands and then just pressed a very simple way that you become a prophet and you're a part of this great move. I think it's very interesting, not only this easy end to be like a great profit because simply somebody had like hands on you, but I think you may have seen this before John where it's like Dr. Bill Hammond, Dr. I don't really know where they're getting their doctorate studies, but I think I've heard of doctoral males, matter of fact I was a fifth grade teacher, I had this kind of spoof to make my kids think, wow, it's just when we got

me being serious, this is just, I had this very original, authentically looking document that said I had a degree in redneck studies, and so I put it up on the wall. Sometimes parents would go, really? Because down here in Texas you know that that rang a certain way, but yeah it's like them as have a doctorate male where they can pick up all these great accommodations.

So something I've heard others talk about quite a bit, but it kind of fits in what we're talking is when you talk about some kind of horrible converging apostasy where it leads to a false Christ, well the question comes up, yeah, but how could the whole world, including Christians, knowingly replace their salvation worship of God and then replace that and go to the devil?

The easy answer is this process would come incrementally step by step, so here's some of the steps I think I've identified. First, if the devil or Satan can be dressed in the bright, shining, beautiful clothing of the Lucifer, then it is a step made towards his rebirth, which I call the devil reborn. And next, if Lucifer becomes the fallen Lucifer like Sophia, which is very pervasive in the esoteric world due to the influence of teachings of the second century Nostate Galatius, that's another one. Next, if Christians would, we need to be shown, there would need to be shown the balancing effect of introducing a feminine aspect to the

trying Godhead because this is more democratically just and fair, not that we need that in good scripture interpretation, but this is one angle that I've seen happen. Next, if she is introduced as either a reframe or revitalized Mary of the Catholic Church or as the neo-Nostate presentation of Sophia goes, then she can be seen as a logical result of following ongoing revelations. And without giving it a whole talk, yeah, it's not- This is not speculation.

I might probably already have instances of that. Documented in my book. So next, if worship of Satan sounds so disgusting and far removed from Christians as it should be, but if worship of him becomes worship of Satan, becomes worship of Sophia, then the only thing left is to remove any human impediments of the kingdom.

Meaning, folks that don't go along with that and speak out against that and do their best to remain faithful to what Christ told us to hold onto you as the gospel wants delivered. Now, what about that removal of folks?

Well, for the NAR and for their descendants, this could be done as carrying out the written judgments of God as Bill, him, and others in Narsake. That is Bill, those folks said back in the later length.

For Alice, Bailey's new world order, he would simply be the cleansing act of his sacred purge. So in other words, I have both of them have this same kind of deal in the same in time order of events.

So if both of them had this order of events that is aligned, then the sacred purge would prepare the world for the same false kingdom and the false Christ. Why do I say this is because their in time order of events place both of them at the same point in time doing the same thing for the same reasons.

You know, in the Brannum cults, it wasn't that uncommon to hear a sermon from a minister where he said, God just sometimes likes a good killing. And whenever we left that, you know, looking back, that's clearly wrong, but looking back, we had so many people that I considered them to be good, humble, solid people who really wanted to follow Jesus Christ, but were just in a wrong movement.

They were manipulated and indoctrinated. And they would have never, at least I hope, many of the people that I knew would have never taken that out to its extreme as was being proclaimed by the minister.

But what really shocked me is whenever I started looking at the NAR that was influenced by this laterane movement, the ministers are saying many of the same things. In fact, in the book, I've got a few quotes of them, but they're talking about how Jesus likes bloodshed.

I think Mike Bickel is the one that I quoted the most. He's saying some very, very, very awful things, but they don't come out and say, Jesus likes a good killing because that's... everybody would stand up and leave his auditorium if he did, but he twisted in such a way where he sang the same exact thing, but with much tamer words. And the problem for me is the way that these men have manipulated the way that the Bible is read in such that they can take a phrase from this book and a phrase from this book and a passage from this other book, marry them all together and make

a new story, which is an effect, a new Bible, but many of the times they're taking quotes from the Old Testament. And if you look at the all of the wars that are described in the Old Testament, and there, you know, many of them are picking some of those passages as well, well, they can very easily militarize an entire body of people. And after they have already been manipulated to believe God likes a good killing, well, now if they take those passages from war of the Old Testament, and, you know, turn an entire group of people into extremists, there is literally no telling how far

they will go in their efforts to conquer the kingdom. Yeah, John, that's very pertinent, what you're saying. And the two names that came to my mind instantly, one was George Houghton, the so-called Father-in-Chief Apostle of the Laterane at its inception, and Bill Britton, both of them said pretty much verbatim, which you're just talking about. So this next thing I have here, I don't think I've talked about it on any of our podcasts, but I just put, it goes this far across the mark, and amazingly, the same Jane Lee that has influenced some end at Laterane,

and then are sometimes secondarily, but still influencing. She set precedence for what she called the ultimate reconciliation of Lucifer, his fallen angels, and all what she calls apostasized souls. She said that the saints above are waiting for a universal restoration to fall in angels and spirits. That's the right quote from Jane Lee. She called this also as you believe. And according to her, this will save all, it will include all who have departed from this body. Now, what I put in my book, as I say, she most definitely has this sort of thought, which is universal salvation, including spirits. She has this out of one side of her mouth,

from the other side of her mouth, she's talking judgment. And so, yeah, I usually think of that as a sacred purge with a caveat, because it's, well, sure, we're going to care up to judgment, but but everybody's going to eventually be saved, even if we have to get rid of them. Maybe we'll have another chance from, you know, maybe they'll descend from the heavily.

and come into some bodies that are waiting to be made perfect, and yes, that sounds quite odd, but you get that kind of stuff too. From NFS, sons of God, teachers like Rho Kron Quist, you hear that, and definitely from Jane Leigh. So she implies that those who are to descend will not be the angels of God. They would be, quote, the children of Sophia, and that the they are called, she calls them spirits of light. Well, that sounds pretty close to something we hear in the scripture. And she identifies them as folks in the great cloud of witnesses.

John, we talked about that before, and I know Brandon had quite a bit to say about that. So we've been straight into the esoteric world. I'm definitely going to not do a good job at this. It's French. Les Sonsions, des Les Femmes, somebody's probably laughing at this moment.

But this was a work of the Satanist, a lifeless levy, who greatly influenced Helen Blavowski, previously mentioned. In this work, he says that there will be a revamping of Mary as Sophia, and he said that this would bring about the redemption of humankind, and it would also redeem an eventually rehabilitate Lucifer. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brandham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. You know, that's incredible whenever you think

that a religion that everyone who escapes it wonders if it is Luciferian is based on a religion that they're going to restore Lucifer. Yeah, no kidding, John. It's beyond ironic. It's purely evil, of course. So Valentinus, his version of Sophia, which actually is the version that got passed on to Dessertek, world, and to Jingly, his version of her and her pride.

for fall is very consistent with the biblical notion of the prideful fall of Lucifer and his angels. So are we really talking about Sophia or is this supposed to be Lucifer? Okay, here's another work that gets into that angle. It's called the cosmic chicana so it can figure it's probably coming from an erasure perspective. But chicana also significant through Wesley Swift and other laterane teachers. They say that they use a gnostic text to show that this Lucifer, like wife of God, becomes the chicana as well as the gnostic Sophia. So I have these, you know,

another word kind of with a lot of implications in the Bible is word legions. So you have these legions, personalities, or different mass to on this? No, I'm actually this. No, I'm actually this.

So I asked the question, so what told this? Well, if the chicana is the great cloud of witnesses and a collective Sophia, which will be manifested as the sons of God, and if bodily union with them causes quote perfection, and if leads Sophia and her so-called spirits of light are a collective Lucifer with his fallen angels, then the union of humanity with Sophia and her children is the thing that brings about perfection. I've also seen in some recent podcasts and actually John fellow who was looking at one of our podcasts and he pointed me to him through his phone number.

He also is talking around this idea. So it's not like John, you and I are drinking this up. It's surfacing in several spots and has a historical record. There it is. So who talks like this? Alice Bailey again, Jane Leade, her laddering disciple, Role Cronquist, says it very explicitly, and it's more toned down, but it's still implied in other prophets that have been misled by mislead. Wow, did I say that? They all share this spirit and fusion as the means of perfection and it goes straight back to the Valentines. Exactly. The new age themes in this movement are mind

boggling. Whenever I left, there were so many things, you talk about the Shaqina glory. I almost can't remember a sermon that did not mention this. And they were talking about your bodies made, William Brandham called it meters, your bodies made of light meters, but he was essentially saying that we're bodies...

of light, we have a chicana glory that flows through us, we have a celestial body that we will one day re-inherit. He's literally saying everything that you would hear if he were to open up a book by one of the new age authors. But what he did was he pepper sprinkled all of these different quotes from different passages of prophecies in the Bible that were very vague and symbolic. And he would marry one of his quotes about the chicana glory or any other new age theme. He would marry it with some prophet in the Old Testament. So now whenever

I hear those phrases, I immediately, through word association, I associate those to the Bible passages. And there are no way shape or form the same. But I have been programmed this way. And even still today, I have to work to unravel that mental programming. But then take this a step further. Many of the people, the leaders who are in the NAR grew up in these types of circles. So they like me heard many of those phrases. And they too associate Bible texts with new age theology. And so they're bringing this new and wonderful thing that is the new

age. And they themselves, because they were indoctrinated very very much like I was, they themselves don't even realize that they're doing this. Yeah, well said, John. Something that I've been thinking also, it's really a question is just how could these sorts of things come really more into the NAR

when folks that have read things from the NAR would say, no, they don't really say that. Well, I'm talking about how things may progress. And that's the speculative part of this. So what would allow these things to progress other than the things I laid out, ongoing revelation may someday allow the NAR to reach back to its genuine lead, influence predecessors in the lettering, and even further back to the esotericists who influenced lead. So what are some of the revelations that would be available to them if they went back and reached into the garbage pile of the dogma? Well, one is just like the esoteric

world's Lucifer lead Sophia is, according to her, the Androgynous queen of all worlds who is, quote, not limited to male or female, but may assume either according to her good pleasure. Now if you're thinking about deception, this is not something you hear all the time in Christian circles, obviously, but the idea of Lucifer being the being of a thousand masks, even gender, like, you know, it could be this, it could be that, it could be whatever it takes to deceive people.

So that's why I kind of harp on and lead and Valentinus's version of Sophia and the way it seems to be cropping into some of lead's teachings. Lead also destroys the traditional Christian differentiation between God and evil and God and God and the devil. How does she do this? She asked quote, how comes evil and sin to be awakened since from God all created beings have proceeded? I see where she's headed with this one.

The answer that she gives is that quote, the great and mighty God has both of light and darkness in himself. Both good and evil, death and life all bounded together in unity and harmony.

Yeah, I don't think so. But that's what a lot of this stuff goes. Actually, I'm trying to remember it. There's a quote from just a regular, if you go on that, philosopher Hagel, which talks about this too.

He's got thesis, thesis, antithesis, all that kind of stuff, how ideas progress. And so he says something to the same effect that you can transform good into evil and he literally calls it the devil through this sort of morphing and changing. So how does the devil reborn shown up in latering prophets that were influenced by Lee? Oddly enough, folks like Bill Britain and others. I mentioned him a lot because I think he's influential.

They would say that Lucifer was the shining one and only a useful tool in God's hands to perfect the saints. So whoa, you know, that's that's like Chiseling away at the sharp points on Lucifer and making him smooth, shiny, appealing in some ways, a servant of God even, it's where they put it. But amazingly, the totally influenced by Jane lead latering prophet Jay Preston, he says this, he says Lucifer means the light bringer and he says that Jesus called himself Lucifer. Now again, don't think so. Can it get worse? I don't know, it depends on what we're talking about. If we go back to the esoteric world, there's a teaching that I found

on lines called the rise of the, well, I have to preface this with excuse me to our listeners, not really ready for prime time. It says the rise of the whore goddess Sophia and Babylon.

And in this text, the Lucifer likes Sophia, quote, loved her creation so much that's in caps that she plunged to earth to bring about a community between her children on earth and those in the angelic realm.

To bring about this unit, Lee said that spirits of light, again, must be incarnated in what she calls bodily vehicles of chosen vessels. She sounds similar to Rick Jorner when she says that this would bring about this would allow heaven to be brought down to earth.

And there we have the fullness of the lettering theology, the moment in which the light comes, I look back, you know, I'm fascinated with things, science fiction and the fact that we believe that the UFOs were angels of light that were coming down to herald the second coming of Christ, which is just, it's unbelievable that I fell for it, but you know, that thought, I continue that thought into what I see in the NAR, because in the lettering and all of the healing revival is prior to it, while the Bible says that an evil and adulterous

age looks after signs and wonders, these ministers literally advertise in the newspapers signs wonders miracles, and they were attracting the masses to come see it. And so they were looking for something that was new, that was more exciting than the Bible.

And that was what was attracting the people. And then whenever they ran out of, you know, fascinating miracles or people who could fall for such a trick that they were doing, they had to come up with new tricks, because the old tricks weren't working, so they invent new ones.

Now you bring in all of the new age stuff, they can bring it into the movement because many of the people are uneducated, they're unaware that this is new age. Well, the question that has become forming in my mind recently is, what do they do when they run out of the new age stuff as new and exciting?

Where will they go next? Because they have to attract the itching ears. And they've almost, I mean, from start to finish, they've almost covered the entire new age theology in the NAR. What do you pull up next?

Yeah, no kidding. Good question. Again, I'm scribbling as you talk and the same old stuff. I thought of a song that I heard when I was a teenager, by the who, the rock band of who, and it says, it talks about the new boss, same as the old boss, I don't know if I can't remember the title of that one, but it was used on one of the CSI shows that keeps on.

And also something that John, you probably, okay, this is something that makes people discount as, you know, these guys are so wacky, so ridiculous, how could anybody take this seriously? Well, when I say genetic...

about what you're saying, the good UFOs and Franklin Hall and Brandon talking about oh there's good your photos and there's bad ones too but let's go for the good ones. I think thematically and I kind of bring that all together because there's a great merger in the deep end of the pool you can say where it really doesn't matter what you call and you can say you have photos angels, spirits of light, whatever and so I just kind of lump that together and call it the great return because it goes by many different names but the idea is essentially the same, higher beads, what new age you

know you get to spirit guides and they would fit in this category too. I heard this where there was some kind of connection between Christian identity influenced by Swift and they pretty much said oh yeah they were trying to distinguish themselves from the neo-Nazisism of the Nazi party and they talked about okay you know let's make this a little bit more appealing and they said something more like the great white brotherhood returning or the or Enic will return. Enic yeah he's in the Bible so he's going to return and kind of bring the kingdom in. Christ won't be there too but

it's not even very important. So you get all that kind of nonsense but again it's sort of wrapped up into a category which I think of as angels question mark and you know go figure there's like his gazillion different ways that they would express that. And if you think of biblical authority then again one of your guests one of our viewers said something about this. If you're thinking biblically probably not really UFOs probably not the great white brotherhood they're probably something else the Bible would refer to if there were any beings that were trying to bring about

these ideas. So let that sit in your hat or whatever. So the next question I have here is couple of questions. What do Satanists actually say about Sophia as the devil reborn as I put it?

How is it similar to any of the ideas and goals of the Narn? Okay well there's a not very pleasant website but I kind of went there and tried to find out what they had to say. So this is a satanic Satanic church of Zazel. Excuse me. Azazel. There we go. Azazel. They literally say they're not talking about the devil they're not talking about all that kind of stuff. Well they do but the add-in is one of the other names they say Sophia is known in Gnostic.

as the serpent of the Garden of Eden who brought spiritual wisdom to humanity. Okay, so again, this is not the Hollywood version of, you know, you get pentagrams everywhere and people are drinking blood and have long black capes and so on.

No, this is just straight up Satanic Church and they're talking about Sophia, who some people think of as an union with Mother Earth and Guy and all this kind of stuff. You know, the goddess teachings.

Okay, here's another thing that fits this question of mine. Similar to the Nars, Rick Jornor, the Satanist and theosophists, Helena Blavatsky, I can't get that one off my tongue. She said that we must restore paradise to the Earth.

So we must bring heaven down. Rick Jornor makes this very clear. And if you're talking about this great return, what are you really bringing down? If you go back to Jane Leed, what are you bringing down?

She literally talks like Norfolk's too. She says that the elite, which she gives different names, you know, basically elite Christians, have the power to speed up or slow down the return of the literal Christ, which comes obviously in her mindset after this false Christ and false kingdom.

So that kind of gives me pause to things. Anyway, in Jane Leed's teachings, there are many references made to an opening of a portal-like womb of Sophia. That's interesting because that seems to sound very much like, again, Alistair Crowley's ideas about creating a channel for the descent of the angelic beings.

And he calls them all kinds of different stuff, mostly holy guardian angels, was one of his phrases for it. And so, again, going back to speculation, the question might be this, is the gnar on the same road to tradition as these were openly satanic streams of New Age teachings?

You know, out of everything that you've said in this episode, I think the most powerful for me is the satanic website. Whenever I first left the message called the William Brannum, and start to understand what is real Christianity, there came the question between the two, you know, where did it come from?

Where did the message come from? Where did all of this weird mystery religion come from? And I started going down paths that led me, as I've mentioned before this, into narcissism and trying to understand that.

Once you start to study narcissism, you understand Sophia, all of this stuff, right? Well, as I followed the trail down to it, conclusion. I actually, I've forgotten about it, but I actually came across that same exact website.

And the thought suddenly hit me. The original sin in the Garden of Eden, even though Brannum and all the Christian identity people tried to twist it into something racist, and it was not. The original sin was simply that they were seeking knowledge and Satan could come, and it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So the original version of Sophia was coming from the bad side of the story in the Garden of Eden. And that was the first reference at all that I found a direct link between Sophia and the Garden of Eden. And that began to raise the

question for me, if the original sin was the entire premise of the religion that I escaped, then does that mean that that was a religion of Satan? And I just asked the question. I'm not going to try to answer it, but you can clearly tell this was not a movement of God. I'll just say it like that. Yeah, John. That's one of my main themes that I use in my writings. I just call it deification based on the big lie. And of course, the big lie, which I was saying in the Garden.

And you know, the thing about that, the Satanic group that I'm talking about, the Church of Azazel,

I believe that I saw a very cheesy B movie, and it was taking up the name of Azazel. And it seems to me that also in Kabbalah or some mystical Jewish writings, he's considered one of the more powerful demons or something like that. So yeah, you know, you have the very clear comments in scripture about being transformed into an angel of light to deceive Christians.

It's just a standing though that people don't really see what it talks about. It's a very hard scripture to hear. As Jesus said, you know, it's just too hard for you to hear. And as Apostle said, well, where else can we go? You have the words of life. But the idea, I forgot exactly where this is strong, but it says because of their hardened hearts and their seeking after miracles, as you said, God would send them a strong delusion that they might believe the lie. And of course, it's not like God is just being really mean and fairly. But I think that passage is being

aimed at it, if you will. Folks who have already had the quote itching ears and they really don't want to hear the gospel which you know we say is once delivered and in scripture it says that and if anybody brings you another gospel Paul says some pretty hard words about that so yeah there we go John really appreciate all your all your good work and I'm looking forward to the to the book sounds like a good one well thank you Steve this um this thought the the itching ears and God will send them a strong delusion that that single passage really

bothered me whenever I left the cult of William Branham because we were taught a very narcissistic version of God a version of God that you know they always talk about the father's child relationship whenever you're talking about religion and and God but this was a father you wouldn't want message very very demanding very very much like the you know the ancient Greece and Roman gods they were narcissistic gods and that passage plagued me well how how could God send them a strong delusion if he so loved the world but then after after I had escaped and after I had taken

some time to deprogram I realized that I was so indoctrinated and so caught up in the itching ears religion that unless something pushed me down to see the depths of how bad it could be I myself couldn't have just snapped out of it and many of the people who have escaped and go through the support groups are the same way that they had literally had to go to hell and back before they could escape and so this can this passage can be read both ways it can actually be a blessing to be sent a strong delusion so that you can see how bad that delusion could be and finally

break free from it so that's I'm I'm not theologian but that's the way I interpret that passage I like it Jonathan I think you're you're hidden on the head there thank you well as I mentioned earlier the new book is out I think this podcast might come out before it is published I've I've said it for September 1st so I think this podcast might come out immediately before that but September 1st it will be in it'll be available and there's all kinds of references with direct quotes so anything that Steve and I have said as it relates to Christian identity you'll find in

this book but anything with regard to the themes and the theology get Steve's book the converging apostasy because it's it's much thicker than my book but it's got a it's got a lot a wealth of information so if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at william-branam.org for more information about the dark side of the NAR you can read the book weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR and for more information about the converging apostasy read the book the converging apostasy.