Our Stories: An Interview With Anthony Martin

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Anthony Martin, former charismatic minister, and currently on vacation, so thank you so much for doing this, Anthony, on your vacation.

I can't think of anything more fun to do than sit here and talk to me. Well, to be honest, when I sent you the email, I was a little surprised to email me back, so yeah. You know, what you had, I've actually been wanting to talk to somebody who has the experience you have. I'm going to let you introduce it not me, but I've been looking for somebody that had that connection because Charles and I discussed the organization that you mentioned in your email, and we both, like we both kind of came to the same conclusion that you mentioned in

your email about the people and, you know, their genuine motivation, even though they're kind of in the wrong place, their heart was in the right place. We kind of came to that conclusion. There's some interesting history that I won't discuss yet, but there's also some, you know, deception there too, so I want to talk about that, but anyway, let's just start by maybe you could introduce yourself, tell everybody a little bit about yourself. So introducing myself, so my name is Anthony Martin. I actually grew up in Sedalia, Missouri. I got radically saved when I was 15 years old. I happened to go to a charismatic church that I had went to when I was a kid

for children's church, and so my friend Rachel, she invited me. I went there. They did the salvation prayer, and then they also did the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I had no clue what that was. My youth pastor, as you did the center's prayer, I did that, and then the first thing, he said, he goes, now you need to get baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking and talking, so I'm like, well, I'm just good with the salvation part, and I can't remember how he said it, but basically you weren't really saved if you didn't get that. So I did it because

I was primed and ready to, to get. And so I did get baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and then we were kind of off to the races after that So but I'll let you let you kind of ask questions and kind of see where to go from there Yeah, you mentioned Cedelia of Missouri. I've actually been through there. I lived a good part of my life was in Pittsburgh, Kansas And so yeah, you know, it's I think it's what two hour maybe two and a half hour drive from

Yeah, yeah pretty close to that Yeah, I've been there Oh, yeah Yeah, that's actually going on right now I live in Columbia, Missouri now, but yeah, that's where I grew up at. Yeah, so you're Experienced as a charismatic minister. I'm curious to hear more about that. What was it like? What how did you come to be a minister and?

Well, so it's so I kind of started. I'll start back with with my salvation story and then just kind of Build it up a little bit from there So before I got saved I was like my family like we believed in God I didn't really believe in God necessarily, but my mom like her her mother was a penicostal preacher

So so I was a stoner kid. I had long black hair I loved Ozzy Osborne like when I was 11. I heard Iron Man for the first time and I that's that's what really hit my My love for music and rock and roll and and all that

But so I had watched the movie the seventh sign I think it was Demi Moore whoever was in that well after that I started having these dreams about like the end of the world It come but I'm like standing in this scorched earth and I kept hearing a voice said that judgment of God has come and it's too late for you to choose and uh The voice was like so it's too late for you to choose Whoever chose to go to heaven is in heaven and whoever chose to go to hell is in hell So I would have this dream for like six months

Anyway, my uh my best friend Timmy his his sister Rachel was a Christian and so his house was the party house So he started uh We used to go over there. Well anyway, she started wet witnessing to me and all that kind of stuff I went to her church got radically saved um And it it really did completely shift the whole course of my life and uh So anyway, I got so radically saved. I was living with my sister at the time because my stepdad my mom Were traveling for work and I didn't want to travel with them

It rattled my sister so much that she thought I joined a cult She wasn't too far off, but but at the time it was my genuine love for for the Lord And so anyway my mom flew back They were in Massachusetts at the time she came to make sure I didn't join a cult And of course when I told her my salvation story and Literally everything I had done before that, she, you know, she supported it.

I had really long black hair at the time and she took me to get it cut off. Like, because now you're a Christian, you gotta look at the part. And so I was so radically saved that within a month of my salvation, my cousin got saved because of me.

And then another month after that, one of our best friends got saved. I mean, it was like, like the book of Acts was going on, like in that time. So anyway, at 15, I felt like I was literally praying on my front porch.

And I felt like, like, what do you want me to do with my life? And I felt that call to the ministry and all that. So fast forward, a little bit, I met my ex-wife.

Her dad was taken over a church that I had started going to. We became best friends, and then we ended up getting married at 19, which don't recommend anybody doing. And then we, yeah, yeah, we had a couple, cut my oldest son and my daughter.

We had them. And then probably about 26 or 25 or 20, I think it gets all kind of hazy there. But about 26, we packed up and moved to Dallas and went to Christ for the Nations Institute, which is Gordon and Frita Lindsay's ministry or school or whatever.

So yeah, so that's kind of where it all kind of began. And then after that, we went back to our home church. And we started a young adult ministry there. And we grew up from, like, it was my ex-wife and me, a couple other young people.

And then we grew up from three or four to 50 to 60 within a couple months. And then not long after that, we had an associate pastor tell us that we needed to start charging them tie.

Or not, I hate to use them or charging. But that's what you're doing. Admission, you got to charge admission in the church. You got to get your 10% from kids who don't have any money, but okay.

And then that pretty well killed that. And then not long after that, my ex-wife and I were going through some things. And we're still best friends now. But at the time, there was just some things that kind of our marriage kind of fell apart.

We went our separate ways and we got back together again. And then I don't know. I guess we're not live yet. So probably we were divorced for like two years. Got back together, had my youngest son.

And then about a year after that, she had come out and told me that she was a lesbian. Again, all this stuff ties into your podcast, right? Yes. Because her dad being a preacher and all that kind of stuff.

That was very suppressed. So she had them knowing her home. life and there were signs there but you know if I I changed a lot of my that two years that we weren't together I changed a lot of my views on a lot of things and one of them was homosexuality lesbianism all that stuff I went from being you know far to the right to at least in that aspect of things far to the left just because I had developed friendships with with gay and lesbian people and uh my friend Eric I'll never forget we had this conversation because he's gay and I just listen

to your podcast about your your best friend or your friend that had told you that he was gay that you guys were having lunch or dinner yeah and uh yeah you know it's kind of fun you mentioned the rock and roll before your salvation then they cut your hair there's this I'm a big sci-fi fan if you've listened to my podcast you've heard me talk about it and I've got the millennium falcon in every one of my videos so yeah but um what I'm also I love fantasy and there was my one of my favorite books growing up was called a wrinkle in time and they've made a few different

movies about it but there's this there's a scene when they make it to you know across the galaxy or whatever there's a scene where in there in this neighborhood every house is exactly the same every kid that walk out they bounce the ball they walk back in and I don't know if you've seen it but it that's what it felt like whenever you quote unquote get salvation in these things they want to put you in this box that looks like everybody else and if you're not part of that box you're you're not quote unquote saved and I never forget when we left the cult and I went to

I'm not going to mention the denomination but I went to a very very fundamentalist type church and and the minister took me to a rock and roll concert which blew my mind I was like what and it's still to this day their songs they resonate with me because they're talking one of my favorite song by the group was called give it back and it was talking about somebody does a good deed for you and you give it back to by paying it ahead to somebody else which is great I mean it's a good concept but you also mentioned Aussie which is what sparked this whole thought of

what I I'll never forget after I think it was after that I first heard the song crazy train and oh my gosh man and the fact that I mentioned Aussie and mentioned crazy train all my podcasts means I'm going to get a hundred people saying I'm going to hell because I because I heard Aussie and I liked it but that song was incredible and my son picked up his guitar and I wish I had the gift that he has but he picked it up and he could play it flawlessly start to finish wow that's impressive that's a hard song to play it is well and it's funny because I on the way so we drove

from Missouri to Los Angeles on our trip. And I've listened to you've been trying to catch up on your podcast as I've been driving And I heard the podcast where you talked about the song highway to Hill by AC DC. Yes, and it made me think of this is that that You you talked about you Trying to fit everybody into a box like you can't listen to secular music. You can't do this You can't do that and I remember Like we did a CD tape burning thing and I had like album like you know vinyl albums. I had one of

There was Ozzy Osborne no rest for the wicked and on the record it had the actual record itself It's one of those collectible ones that had his picture on it and then on the back was the the album cover and like infused in this record and I remember it like I had a hard time Like throwing that away, but but anyway like you said about highway to hell There's more meaning to it than just that yeah, and the one song that I always Thought that about with with black Sabbath was Warpix and like oh, well they're talking about Satan spread in his

Wing I remember having this conversation with one of my friends Yeah, but yet the end Satan spread it spread in his wings and I was like yeah, but the whole song I said if you take it in the premise of when it was written Which was during the Vietnam War right the Warpix or the politicians like it's in there in the song Yeah, now they're getting their just due because they're sending innocent people like it's a whole anyway Yeah, it just you know songs have more meaning to them than that It's such a ridiculous box they put you in because I know people that will and some of those people will probably comment on my

Page ironically, but they'll go watch movies like oceans 11 where the guys are planning a Big heist. They're doing something that's really really bad and they love it But they listen to the song which actually is talking about the consequences of your like highway to hell you mentioned Right talking about the consequences of your bad choices in life the song actually has a somewhat of a good meaning to it. Yes, and there's other songs like the I remember so I remember reading an article as a Christian article article about It was a matching dragon dragons the demon song

So basically The woman that was writing it said well see he's got demons. He's he's glorifying his demons And I'm like well, that's it that I did I couldn't hold my tongue on that I had to comment I was like have you listened to the song though what he's saying is he doesn't know if he's good enough for the person that He's with because he's has these demons like the our struggle Interest level that inner form turmoil is what the song is about not about actual demons that he's trying to hide from this person You know, it's just like oh good lord. Oh, yeah, yeah, I could talk for like five hours on the music

My one of my favorite is pain at black which is talk Please let me introduce myself. I'm Satan and then talks about all through history all the bad things that have happened But yeah, sympathy for the devil. Yeah, sympathy for the devil. I'm sorry

Yeah, and you can tell how new I am to music because I got the name wrong

It's crazy. Yeah, but back to the CF and I so we um and I'll let this out now I've actually never mentioned what happened. I don't think but Charles. I've had this happen twice now since I've been doing podcast In the second time we went back and re-record it But Charles and I recorded really really good episode on Gordon Lindsey and I forgot to hit record on the dang video So that was the first time it had ever happened to me. We were like I don't know how many we're like 50 episodes in when it happened

So I went back and I added a bunch. I kept the audio and I added all the pictures and did it as kind of a slideshow but As we were talking through that, you know We could see a clear transition in Gordon, Lindsey CF and I now don't get me wrong. They're part of the NAR and it gets really weird when you Connect all of the dots, but there's a period of time in which Gordon, Lindsey is Working deeply with the Christian identity folks. He's speaking at conferences of like the Anglo-Saxon Federation Back whenever they had just turned racist and anti-Semitic that he was at those conferences

He gets in bed with Branum and you know the history there But there's there's a period of time we discovered not long Not shortly before we did that podcast Where we could clearly see that Gordon, Lindsey had enough of Branum, and he just kicked him out and Suddenly the Empire started to crumble because Branum was the headline show So they brought him back and then kicked him out again and then Zooters second or third time they kicked him out. You could tell there's this clear shift in What Gordon, Lindsey was doing Christ for the nations and Branum takes a shift even further into destruction

So you've got a clear parting of ways So that's what really interested me to have you on here to talk through that a bit What were what were the Lindsey's like? Well, I'll tell you So I had no idea of what Christ for the nations was or or Gordon, Lindsey or any of that and my ex-wife She absolutely loved like see if and I she would go there when she was a teenager I can't remember what it was they would have some kind of youth event or whatever and So when we start discussing like hey like we're not getting any younger here

So if we're gonna like do this let's do it like being sure to go to school, all that. So she brought up CF and I, impressed for the nations, we went down there. We went down there for the college days or whatever.

And so, and that was my first initial introduction to Frito Lindsay, which are all those small schools, they have the nicknames like Mom Lindsay or whatever. I've heard at Rayma Bible Institute, that was Papa Hagen, you know, so we were trying to figure out where we were gonna go.

So I went, we went down there. And of course, CF and I also does really good praise and worship music. So part of their little package that they sent out was had a CD with the, our CD in a video with their music.

And that specific year that they did it, it was like the best album they've ever done. So I was like, I was already hooked when we watched the videos and all that. So we go down there and they had the little dinner and all that stuff for the potential students that are gonna be there.

And I just happened to get to sit. We sat down, Mom Lindsay, Frito Lindsay, Dennis Lindsay and his wife, I think her name was Ginger, all sat down at our table. I'm like, oh, like these are, you know, they're famous because by now I've read up on you and I've read up about the ministry, like what Gordon Lindsay, at least the,

what's the word I'm looking for, the professional, whatever, the pro, I don't wanna call it propaganda because it doesn't feel like they never seemed like they were a propaganda thing. But I have studied their history and all that and how big they were in the 50s with Jack Co and William Brandon and Jack Moore, like all the people that you have mentioned on your podcast, AAL and all that.

Now they do whitewash that a little bit. Like you don't hear all the controversy and all, like the way that it's painted is like, they were all best buddies like, yeah, we're doing this wonderful outpouring of God and not a lot.

And Dennis or Gordon really wasn't the preacher, but he was recording all the wonderful miraculous things. So without the context of what was actually going on, you know, the behind the scenes compared to the public, you always use the persona, like when you're talking to your podcast.

So the pictures painted like these were like, the greatest revivalist of all time with they had, like they were all just hanging out, you know, oral Roberts, like they were all the best of friends.

So anyway, Mom Lindsay at this point was 92 years old. So she sits there with me. She's trying to feed me her plate. She's like, you want my chicken? Do you want this? So she was the sweetest little old lady ever.

And then she gave me a drink or a drink of her water because her water was out, my water was out. She gave me a drink of her water which I was like, okay, that's...

little she's like just don't drink on this side because that you can see where my lipstick is and I don't want your germs but I'm like okay it's not the way it works right right right and then she was getting up to go use the restroom and she leads over to Dennis her son and goes hey make sure he doesn't eat my green beads like that I could bound him so but they were they were really nice down to earth people like I never like coming from from where I got saved at I was it was a cold

the not to the degree degree of what you grew up in I the whole time that I was there I never had that feeling there was no control no whatever and of course Gordon was gone by that point and in Frieda for CF and I what they really painted it was that it was Gordon's vision but Frieda was the one that carried it out right like so they had bought all the property and all that stuff he had a heart attack like as they were open either if I remember correctly as they were opening the school or at least within the first year that school being open he he passed away

and she carried that out and it's just a little tiny school down there and an oak cliff it's not anything like this massive campus like ORU or or some of the other guys that have in my opinion really I have exploited Christianity and and innocent people but no the whole time that I was there it was a great experience in some ways like I felt like it I got free of a lot of the cultish stuff just because you have so many people from all over the world anyway I'll I'll slow down and I'll let you say what you need to say or what you want to ask so yeah I can talk forever

it's such a weird history man like when I sit back and because my family was at the top of the brand I'm called I have a lot of similar experiences I knew people that I have actually had guests on my podcast who would tell me that and they don't give the names I try to keep the names out of it but they'll tell me that the person and it's a person that I know very well that they're the most evil violent person that they've ever met like this this minister totally ruined their lives well I have stories kind of like you where I sat with them at tables and they were they were

genuinely nice people but there's the side of them that was really odd and and then you take a step back from that and you just look at the movement as a whole how it started I the only the best way that I can explain it when I'm talking to another person is it was as though that this were a traveling circus that made everyone a heck of a lot of money and some of the men who made a lot of money and women decided to build church organizations from it and then those church did good things. So it started in this very weird circusy way. And then suddenly now there's

this big institution and they're kind of doing good. But now you bring in the NAR stuff and it turns weird again because now it's shifting towards politics in some of these cases. Right. So how do you explain this mass, right?

Well, you know what? From listening to your podcast with like we do a William Brandham, right? I mean, we that was he's kind of like the Elijah like they'd even I'll tell you what that even in some of the books and stuff that they have that you've the gods generals and all that stuff were like curriculum for reading for the classes and stuff. They have that picture William Brandham with the halo behind his head and all that kind of stuff like they never painted him as a bad person until the end of like they they kind of were vague about like yeah him and

Gordon had a split because William Brandham was starting to get a little cultish but then God got took him away before he now if somebody might be like well that's not what they said at least that's what I heard whenever they told the story is that they split God took William Brandham away.

That's why you had the car accident but they never really spoke negatively of William Brandham and I think that's why people like you mentioned Benny Hinnon and talking about William Brandham anointing it's been smoothed over and then as I've listened to your podcast as you used to talk about the brands I don't just take your word for it you start researching all this kind of stuff you're like oh man and you start to realize that all of the charismatic movement from from what I know really can be tied back to William Brandham and then it just kind of does this weird like

tentacles like that's fought and it's so far removed from that people who are charismatic now or tongue-talking whatever it can all be linked back to this one person and I mean I guess you could do like John Alexander Dowey before that and then it kind of expanded out but really William Brandham is kind of the main source where everything else from then is spread out so yeah that's why I'm so intrigued by your podcast because it's just like wow it's crazy right you know you look back at Gordon Lindsay's entire empire none of it would have existed without Brandham

the brandham actually started the voice of healing he was the the publisher initially and he handed over to Lindsay and I would give anything to know how that transition happened whenever Lindsay took ownership because you don't just give this away so what happened how did he claim the entire empire that was built but then take it a step further you mentioned the halo but that's just one of many many instances we have identified Actual instances where Gordon Lindsay would have been present when William Brannum was caught as a fraud And Gordon Lindsay covered the whole thing up and that was early on like this was

There's a paper for example. I want to say it's 1948 or 49 Well, William Brannum is having people come to his meetings pretending to be sick and the same person is pretending to be sick in a Another city in another city. Well, they catch him at it right and Gordon Lindsay's right there So he knows it and once you build your empire on top of this You can't really say no that guy was a complete fraud because if you do your whole empire topples and I kind of sometimes wonder Because of the time

Sometimes you want to believe something so bad You know, and I almost not kind of wonder if that's what happened with Gordon Lindsay's that it just kept building up right and maybe Maybe the line in the sand was where William Brannum's like I'm Jesus like me. I don't know Because it is clear that like a lot of the stuff that was happening Like it's in the more research that you do about any kind of move of God There's stuff like that happening. It's not it's not real, right?

It's not real even if some healings and some sporadic little things happen I would say 9 out of the 10 aren't Real healings are miracles. There's not real signs of wonders going on and you realize

The the narcissistic part of Everything that is tied into this from one central figure and that's one one's pattern Throughout that movement charismatic movement There's always somebody that they talk about how cold they are how Their God's man and they're meant to raise up like a the next generation Except for they never raise up the next generation and that that's probably where I became the most dissolution with Christianity and And not care Chris. Let me rephrase that not Christianity the charismatic movement is because there's more people that are like That and ministers who are like that and who actually create that next generation to go out

And CF and I in the Lindsey's defense and in Christ for the nations they actually seemed To encourage that like to actually like the according to CF and I That was Gordon Lindsay's whole vision because when he saw all the hippies getting saved and all this so this was gonna be that ladder Again, I don't know how many ladder brains we've had the good board. There's been a ton of them But this was gonna be that next generation and they they really seem to have held to that vision and I don't want to be a

Devils advocate advocate for Gordon lens or yeah for Gordon Lindsay but because I'll be honest I'm agnostic now it has nothing to do with anything that I've been through it has more to do with the more that you I'm like you a very analytical person so the more that you study like it kind of just like okay like I have nothing against Christianity or any kind of religion at all but but and then like I said with it back to what I've said about Gord Lindsey at least it seems like their vision or what the vision was

supposed to be for CF and I it feels like they I can't say it now because it's been years since I've been there but it feels like it's they kept to it now yeah minus what happened way back then that's kind of it feels like everybody was fighting for their place back then is what it seemed like have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism transition through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation you can learn this and more on William

Brannum Historical Research's website William-brannum.org on the book's page of the website you can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Stephen Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Brannum

Historical Research we want to thank you for your support you know I've reached the place where I don't even view it as Christianity so any comment you make is fine with me because even though their heart may be in the right place and they may think that they're doing good things Christianity for me and from what I read in the Bible is that you have a community of people that love each other love God help each other if a person gets sick let's go help the sick person and then if God were to heal the sick person and they would all

praise God and say wow that's wonderful but we're still going to love the ones that didn't get healed that for me that view would be Christianity but it's like that they took one person who might have gotten healed and then turned it in turned that itself into a religion where now everybody has to come and they all try to get healed so it it it's just so weird when you think about the theatrics of it because you can't really generate healings like they claim they do so you've got the examples like I mentioned where you plant the

people and one of the gimmicks that was used in the not just William Brannum's but I found this in I think Catherine Coleman was doing it maybe Amy Simpleman Pearson, but they bring in all these wheelchairs.

And if you're standing, if you're tired, well, an usher will put you in a wheelchair, and they'll wheel you up because your legs are tired. Well, when they get to stage, they don't literally say this person was crippled and they're raising up.

But when the audience sees them raise up, everybody's going, oh my gosh, we have a genuine healing of a crippled person. Right. And it's all for show. It's all a circus act. Well, and you've said in your previous podcast, I think it's very accurate.

In today's world, most people aren't going to go, oh, man, there's, but if you look at the 20s, the 40s, the 50s, superstition, and all that kind of stuff, it makes sense that more people are more willing to buy into that.

At that time, I don't think you can get away with it in today's world. Although it does seem whenever the next move of God, like whoever this guy got visited by an angel, and they got gold dust coming down from the heavens and all that, it typically seems like those guys get cut short pretty quick, because what was that guy saying?

Todd Bentley, I think. He was going to be the next move of God guy. I remember seeing this guy. And I remember seeing him and being like, something's not seeming right. And lo and behold, he was, before he even got famous, he was already doing things he shouldn't be doing.

You know, and so stuff like that, yeah, anyway, it just, it seems like they get cut down in a lot quicker than what they did back then. And maybe because we have more, we're in a social media world, it's easier to get caught, right?

You get caught dead to rights. It's not just somebody else saying something over here, and there and all that, where probably in those days, you just, you had more men, more yes men who were covering things up, and then you're moving on to the next place, so you can't, it doesn't spread like wildfire, you know?

And yeah, anyway. It's like the snake oil salesman from Badanza. You go, you go use one town, until you get all the money you can get out of that town, and then figure you're out, you go to the next one, what's a new town?

They don't know what's happened and what's going on. Right, they have no idea what's going on. And the irony is, you know, we've got, because of William Brannum's sales strategy, I don't know what you call a strat, I really don't understand why he did all the recordings.

I know they made a lot of money at it, but there's some, there's some weirdness there too, with the money and the sales, because he, in 1947, all of the pre-dated recordings,

you can't find them, I no longer apparently exist, but all that aside, if you go back to those early recordings, You can kind of see where he's going from town to town to town, and he'll tell the same story again, and it's a new audience.

So he'll use things like claiming his memory's poor. He'll say, who was that girl, Marilyn Monroe, I prophesied, and Yada Yada, when he goes to the next town, and it might be a week later, and he says, now who was that girl, what was her name again, brother, and it happens again and again, you can tell that it's very staged, the whole thing is staged.

He's telling the same story, it's just a different, it's like giving a speech, and you're giving the same speech to a different class over, well, if you look at a comedian, they have their own, it's the same jokes they tell from town to town, they'll write, if you go to the special, it's the same jokes, well, it's the same thing, you're not, you're not, like I'm a big professional wrestling band, so like I used to watch, I used to watch it all the time, but they'll do, they're called house shows, and what they're doing at

the house shows is they're doing the same, the same choreograph moves over and over and over again, so like in the old magazines, you would read like, well, they were in New York, here in New Jersey, and the cards exactly the same in both places, and the Wayne Laws is the same, like, and they're doing the same thing over and over again, so you kind of have that with the preachers, right, they're going from town to town to town to town, you're just preaching the same message, and like, like a comedian, like a joke, it

might hit, it might not, and they're like, well, that was not hitting anymore, so we'll change up that story, you know, exactly, and I think that's actually a better illustration of what I was trying to say, if you go back in the early years in Brandon's ministry, he's only got like 10 sermons, they all have different titles, but he's saying the same thing and telling the same stories, many of them are called my life story or some variation of that.

Well Gordon Lindsay is one who is sponsoring these things, so he is seeing that same story told from town to town to town. Well, where it gets weird for me trying to understand the mindset of Lindsay, the way that the theatrix of this, the way that they tell the stories is there's always this supernatural element, God gave me a vision, and Angel came down from heaven and said such and such, and then they watched the audience's reaction, and they might have, they might have said some variation of the word and watched the audience get excited.

Well that variation gets introduced into the stage persona. Now the stage act begins to shift, and over time you can watch from town A, where it's an angel, you know, like one of Willie Nelson's angels and blue jeans to angels and white robe. It shifts that much, right? Well Gordon Lindsay is there and he's watching the shift, and so he knows it's not supernatural, but it is a stage act that selling and he doesn't stop it. So when I see him not stopping it, that's where it gets right for me. Well, you have to question the integrity a little bit. You know, it's and

then I'll tell you that's probably the bend of I don't struggle with anything now with all that kind of stuff, but the thing that I really struggle with with the charismatic movement, the spirit spirit filled tongue-talking whatever laying on of hands is the lack of integrity and also seeing it from on the inside. You know, I'll try to be more diplomatic, but seeing a pastor and his wife where they hate each other's guts and the only reason that they're together is because they're ministers, right? That's your income. And seeing that, it's very disheartened because here we're supposed to be the pinnacle, like, well, we're not pinnacles,

but we're charismatic. We got the gifts of the spirit. We have discernment. We have prophecy. We have healing. And yet you guys, the only reason you're together is because this is all I've done for 30 years. This was literally what was said because I guess I could be a greeter at Walmart because you have no other skills. You can't do anything else. And then your wife won't leave because she doesn't know what she's going to do. But then she really is trying to be a devout Christian and there's no fear that's happened. It's just this, it's all about control,

right? It's all about that. And it's like how you speak about the public. That's probably where I got most disillusioned with everything was is that the public, who they are in public and who they are in private is two different things. And part of my getting radically saved was,

you know, I believe that you've got to be the same guy. I'm not saying you don't have to have struggles and that sort of thing. It's easier to empathize with somebody who is having struggles and they're honest about it. Then somebody's like, I'm the man of God. I'm the guy and you've got to submit to my authority. Meanwhile, over here, my wife hates my guests, my kids hate my guests.

I'm looking at things I shouldn't be looking at, you know, all that part of it. It's just like, that's where my disillusionment comes in. And it's all created off that. If we, the way it all ties back is it's been perpetuated ever since it's beginning. The U.A.

like this out here, but back here, as long as they don't see past that persona, this is okay. We just keep it up. And being married to a pastor's kid, you see a lot of that. And then just the further that you get in the ministry, that it's very common. It's very, That's a normal thing and I yeah like I said all it just again it kind of all ties back to that That's everybody's trained to do that and you can train it all the way back to William Branum You can train it back to ministers back then

Because you have to be that celebrity superhero Man of God, right? So yeah, and the irony is whenever you and I began emailing back and forth That was the point I was actually wanting to drive home and I knew if you had gone to CF and I you probably Would be able to do it See I grew up in a world where I knew pastors children. I was the grandson of one of the head pastors and Branumism and Looking back, you know There's a lot of falling out they call it falling away. There's a lot of falling away

The pastors children and the reason for this isn't because they're bad kids as the cold would like to like to know But they see the fact that it's all theatrics. They watch One of my favorite cartoons in the Sunday papers was the lock horns You see a minister and his wife that fight like the lock horns But then they get into the public and oh, they're so happy and not a problem Well, they're not genuine and so the children can see they're not genuine They have struggles like every person on this earth has struggles But they pretend they don't and the problem that I see with all of this

Even that I can give them a little bit of grace because they they have a ministry but When you create that perception of yourself that isn't even human Now you Entered into where you're becoming superhuman. I have no problems. I have the perfect life at home Nothing's wrong Well, you've got a church filled with people who are people and they have people problems And now they're thinking well what what am I doing wrong that I have all of this in my life that's problematic I must be a sinner and then over time that transition because they're going to the pastor saying these things and then the pastor gets this

Elytus complex like he's above all of that when he's not and the whole thing for me I can see why people become disillusioned because the whole thing is an illusion Yes, well and

You know, I guess I guess we're just gonna be honest, right? I think I think the the part of my dissolution too is Being a minister You can be a master manipulator right because you have the ability You you catch people in a position of their vulnerable right and so you can manipulate people I I can tell you an instance where I saw a

I tried to put a little distance But where the pastor needed money for a car well actually his car broke down. So subtly and I see this have a suddenly he starts to weave in this thing like oh this car costs I think it was $10,000 to repair right and he's subtly like but I'm praying for God to you know to provide right who he's talking to this person who has money but it's it's so subtly like you become a master manipulator right he's subtly dropping those hints to the point that it's interwoven in the conversation to eventually that person ended up

giving him the $10,000 that he needed to fix the car and then there's just different instances like that like where they because they have people's trust in their view is this not just as a super God or superhuman person but also God's man the that anointing and all that kind of stuff the preacher can manipulate the the parishioner into giving them whatever they want or

that I can tell you of another instance where somebody's TV broke and in the conversation they had mentioned it that their TV had broken and guess what after church that day here comes five people with this brand new TV to get it set up in the pastor's house like that's the kind of stuff it's just like and now this particular person that I'm talking about he was not a forceful like like some some ministers are like that demanding forceful like you serve the pastor and all that he on a interpersonal level he was a very soft spoken very gentle very kind and aside from that

he's a very gentle kind person but he learned how to master that so you still manipulate people and get what he wanted he just didn't do it with force he did it with a soft hand so yeah it's just and he get the solution with that too so yeah I have a real problem with that I am yeah in fact I think it was the podcast that are recorded just before this one last week but had the same exact discussion because I I'm nowhere near the level that they are and I don't ever see myself to be a

minister or anything like it but I've noticed that I can say things and I can watch the reaction of people and after you do this a bit you kind of get a feel for the power of your words and how to use them and so if you want people to understand a certain topic you say it a certain way well if you want them to do a certain thing you can also say thing in a thing in the right way and I'm watching all of these ministers in this NAR and all of its apostolic networks they're saying

things that honestly I can go back in the 60s and I can find white supremacy groups saying the same kind of politically charged statements and it resulted in riots and people died. There were people who assaulted other people because of words spoken in a sermon and I'm saying the same thing today and these men like I'm amateur at all of this.

I'm a little shocked that I'm doing it. If I have the power to understand that my words can have that kind of an effect, we'll think of a minister who does this every single Sunday.

These people know what they're doing, they know what they're saying, they know the result that's going to happen and like you said, it can be used to get the money. My family has struggles too, I'm very cautious not to mention my struggles because people will send me money and many of the people who would send it are very, like the cult has robbed them blind, so I'm careful not to.

But these ministers, I know I can name names, I'm not going to do it, but ministers who have done exactly what you've said and people who did not even have the money to give them who couldn't even keep food on their own table was giving them their money.

Well, and I don't want to speak, I feel like we're going to kind of nail some, I'd have friends who are ministers who are legitimately doing God's work. But the problem is for I feel like for every one good minister you have, now some people like, well, you just have that one bad minister and then there's 10 good ones.

I would beg to differ. I would say for every one minister who's doing the right thing, there's 10 of them whose lives are on the verge of falling apart and that's from just seeing it.

That has nothing to do with like, oh, I'm just disillusioned with the thing. It's sad and it's a sad state of affairs because for everyone you have 10 that have an agenda, whatever it is to feed their ego, it's a field of pocketbook, sometimes all of it together, you know, it all ties in together and it's sad because I think, again, if it sounds so weird to say, but it all ties back into that's been the ebb and flow of this thing ever since its inception.

Even if you look at John Alexander Dowley, it's the same thing. Once they started out, good, right, perhaps, but I think most of it is either to feed ego, it's either to feed their finances or the other thing is, are we allowed to say sex on here?

Is that allowed? Depends on how you say it. Well, but it's allowed to get the girls, I mean, all that stuff's all tied in or the guys. I guess it depends on the person.

But it's all tied in, it's sex, money and power and fame and control. It's never really what the gospel is about or what Jesus taught about. There's very few churches that are going to...

turned about the poor, not really. Even though that was like the most important thing that Jesus talked about, at least from my perception and the view of the charismatic movement and kind of how that all splintered out, as long as I can remember, there's not been a church I've been to that poor was important or the community was important.

It was about the church and about the building and about how we're gonna get a new seafull or of a paved the parking lot, not, you know. Or pastor needs a new car, you know, it's not about the community itself, so yeah.

Yes, the irony is that the ministers who are preaching the hardest against sex, drugs and rock and roll are usually after sex, money and power, so. Yes, well, and you always find that, yes.

Yeah, like you, I know some really good ministers who have their heart in the right place, even in the Brannum cult. I know some really, really good guys. And I wish they could escape, though, they may never escape, but they're really, really genuinely good guys.

But like you say, I'd probably say one in 20, but my experience is tainted by being in a cult. But like you said, there are good people. I've also, after leaving the cult, I have been to different, a variety of different churches.

I have seen some who were really genuinely good people. I've also seen some that I, you know, real churches, normal churches, they publish their finances, so you can go pick up the papers and see where the money's gone.

Well, look at some of their astronomical expenses and watch as they come in and then watch the, God has given me the inspiration to have a money drive. And then that follows up. Well, I know exactly why they're doing it.

I'm a businessman. I know how this works, right? Right. Right, right. Why in church today? It probably has always been run like a business, but even more so it seems like incident. You know, again, that's the disillusionment that you get because then you read like in the Book of Acts and like, you know, the apostles are getting the money, they're redistributing the wealth.

And it seems like the apostles today are getting the money but they're not redistributing it back out, right? Right. It's other than to fix up the building, right? That's kind of the extent of it.

The rest of it. And I'm sure you'll probably get comments and all that. Well, not in our little country church, we don't have that kind of resource, but even a church with 150 people in it.

If you haven't given 10% of their income to it, there's enough money there to fulfill a lot of things. No, yeah. Yeah, just from seeing it, like anyway, I've got a lot of the place on here.

Sorry. Yeah. Oh, 10 people. All it takes is 10 people to make one salary. So if you have a church of 10 people, that pastor is making a pretty good living. Now you add 20 people, he's better than every single one of those 20.

So I guess the whole premise of me emailing, like it was one, it's almost like a new revelation, not really new revelation, but more like confirmation of everything that you kind of already knew in a movement, but it brings, it solidifies it, and you don't realize how connected all it comes back to one human being and his surrounding partners that were all kind of, but he's really not just a central figure in the message, but in all of the charismatic movement, and you don't even realize it, and I'm sure there's people that don't even realize it now,

but it just kind of solidifies even things that we do that didn't the charismatic church can all be tied back to them, you know? It was especially with the control, all that stuff. So anyway, yeah, I guess that's what I have to say with all that, but.

There are a lot of ministers that got in boats in the stream, but Brandon was the stream that carried them basically. Yeah, yeah, he's kind of like when, you know, living in Missouri, we got the Mississippi River that comes through, well, if you go farther enough up, you can get to where the Mississippi River starts, right?

And there's nothing there except for that little trickle that comes down and then it flows out into this massive river. From the podcast, just like I said, I knew a William Brandon and the way that he's talked about is this powerful man of God, but you realize everything flows back to this one central point.

You know, maybe John Alexander Dowdy before that, but I don't think any, he would have been like the Abraham to Jacob, that kind of, you know, that's kind of what it feels like, but you just realize that it's all connected.

But that's why I reached out to you to start with was because it's just like, wow, you realize that this is all tied together. So yeah, yeah, I refer to him as the prototype con man, basically.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you look at the televangelist and everything's kind of attached to that with, I don't care. Vinnie, N T L Osborne, Jolo, Steve's dad, John, you know, even Jimmy, like all those guys, you can kind of base it all the way back to this again, same guy, same central person.

So anyway, yeah, it's crazy stuff. Well, I'm so glad you did contact me. If you had some advice that you would give to other people who are trapped in the charismatic movement, what advice would you give them?

Well, for anybody, not even just the charismatic movement, probably even your listeners and all that, there is a life after that. There is. And I think probably in my struggle was was fear like trying to get out of that because even hell is always that thing that's always a threatening thing like if you don't do this and you don't do that then this is the case for anybody who's a believer read the Bible like the Bible will set you free from all the stuff that doesn't line up the cold and it fits I will say that the more

the more that you're starting to come out of that the more resistance and the fighting and the barking that you're going to get from everybody else does telling you you're wrong or you're whatever trust your instinct I I guess I would start from that trust your instinct what you feel inside of you this telling you to get out get out and walk away from it reconnect with God I think the biggest thing that the problem is in any movement is people don't read the Bible right they take everybody else's word for it I think the more that you get in word and read the Bible

that it will start to kind of push you in that direction to go and if you're probably feeling that already if I'm talking to like your audience if you're feeling that direction to push you out I would even say that this podcast is one of those things that's trying to push you out telling you it's okay to go out that way and I don't everybody believes different things but I do think that God does kind of trying to put you in a direction to move that way and don't be afraid it is hard because what happens when you do walk away from stuff like that or church or body of Christ

and I don't mean the actual body of Christ like real Christians but that body of Christ they will turn your backs their backs on you they will ostracize you they will threaten you that you're going to go to hell that you're going to die and all that kind of stuff but you won't it's it's just like the osly great and powerful don't look behind the curtain don't do that and what I found is later on they were scared and just as wanting out as you were but they were afraid and that's why they act the way that they act so if that I guess I don't know I kind of went all over the place with that

but truthfully there is a way out just keep moving forward if you feel like that's what you need to do then do it and I think in today's society you have more support groups and more people that have been through that and have gotten out of that that you're not alone and I think that's probably one thing that your podcast does too it kind of brings to light that you're not by yourself like you're not going to be there's other people that have walked out of that you know and that's one thing I'll say about your podcast so that back to the first church I know we've been all over the place

so back to the first church that I went to at the time I'm when I left that church, like they all turn their backs on me and I remember one of the girl that I was dating and kind of singing at the time.

She said, well, if you don't love your pastor, that my pastor, then you can't possibly love me, right? And then I remember seeing, I was like 16 years old and that was my first Christian experience ever.

I remember seeing those people in Walmart and then about facing and walking away from me. And so, so I think the biggest thing is you realize is that you're not really alone and even this podcast, like you feel like you're by yourself at the time, but there's just more, there's more people, there's more community, more groups out there that have been through stuff like that than what they're having.

I don't know. I guess that's kind of how I would finish it up and say it that way. Yeah. That's a good advice. I had a lady recently contact me and she had her first experience where she had went into a place and that she got the scorn, the nasty eye I call it from the cult members and she was like, well, what do you do?

And I said, I don't know. That's like average Tuesday for me, I go into any store and it happens for me. But that initial fear, that's really the weird part of this because you're in it and part of your fear of leaving is because you know deep down inside that you've done that to other people and that you will do that.

So then when you leave, you know what's going to happen because you're a part of it. You know they're all going to be like that. And so it kind of keeps you in that fear.

Then after you leave, you're like, oh, no, it's going to happen. But after you're away from it for a while, you're like, yeah, that's kind of childish. That's what a 10-year-old would do. Yeah.

It's not what adults usually do. Well, you know what was funny, and I know we've probably gone a little longer than we should, but you know what was funny is that after I had left, I left with my youth pastors.

But after I left, what you find is it starts to trickle like years, you know, months to years later, those same people that ostracized you that are out of it, they come, they do come to you with their tail between their legs and apologize.

But and I don't mean, I didn't mean to say I'm like, well, they're coming with their tail between their legs. They just need somebody to be like, it's okay, like, they need a hug, you know, yeah, they do.

And so a lot of the relationships, you know, you get older and they kind of go everywhere. But there's a healing in that once you get through that, and then those people that were your, your, less of, they're your persecutor, they're not really persecuting like in that, you know, but, but the people that were treating you bad, they're just looking for, because now they feel like you did at that time, they just need somebody saying.

it's okay like we're good yeah so and I don't know too many people that have gone through that that are not become callous and unem pathetic towards that so yeah anyway yeah people are people and they all want to like other people at heart they've just kind of been manipulated against it so well thank you so much for doing this this I could probably go for the next three hours this is incredibly fun yeah this is good I enjoyed it yeah like I said I tend to go off the rabbit holes quite a minute so yeah well they were all good ones okay good

good ones well if you enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at William-branam.org for an overview of the dark side of the NAR you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Audible