NAR Deliverance Ministers EXPOSED!

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Branum.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of Christian Gospel Church.org and the author of Come Out of Her My People. And today we're discussing some very weird things. I feel like this is a a weird doctrine's episode that I was doing with James but we're getting into the role of the the world of Christian role playing basically in

this episode and it's you know the history behind this is so odd. I have a Charles my new book should be out by the time this podcast comes out. Weaponize Religion from. Thank you. Weaponize Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. I just got my copies and I'm excited about that but that will give the background to some of the things we're talking about not all but I also have my hands on a ministry training manual on how to become a Harry Potter not Harry Potter deliverance minister same thing but different the the Christian version of which craft basically and today we're getting into some unusual

things and where they came from how they came to be and this is going to be just so so odd to me to have to sit here and talk to other adults about how playing like children is different than being an adult. That's something else.

You know what what kind of started me down this path we had recently recorded an episode with Chino Ross and as we did that he had mentioned that Hobart Freeman had went to Christ for the Nations in 1966 and I had mentioned well Christ for the Nations didn't exist in 1966 so I wonder what he actually went to. So as I decided I got the transcripts from his sermons the Hobart Freeman sermons and I went back and I looked and just to try and get some more clues and what he mentioned in his sermons and this is from a sermon called

Psalm 103. Blessed is the name of the Lord number one and at the 15-minute mark Hobart Freeman says I was in Texas in 1966 right after receiving the baptism. the Holy Spirit, and I was in a three week seminar, two weeks at Gordon Lindsay's, and one week at WV Grants.

And when I read the name WV Grants, suddenly, everything just clicked in my head, John, exactly where he was. He was at the voice of healing, deliverance convention, deliverance convention training school. That's where he was.

Also in Dallas, this is one of the very first advertisements from the first year they held this convention thing, and it became an annual thing where they did annual deliverance minister training. And as you can see, William Branham headlined and was a teacher in this thing at the beginning.

He had a WV Grant, he had Gordon Lindsay, other figures in it. And this school, John,

I believe is part of what eventually turned into Christ for the nations, because Gordon Lindsay and WV Grant took this stuff over after William Branham died. And so they had a lot of interesting things that they taught at their school.

And I thought maybe we'd talk about that a little bit, and then carry it forward and show where some of these like that manual you held up is derived from teachings that definitely the people, you can directly connect all the people back to the same deliverance school that were teaching the same ideas in the fifties.

And the first thing, too, I wanted to show you, too, the men in this school. Okay, Gordon Lindsay and WV Grant and all these people, you know, they're so revered in these movements, but John, these people were nuts.

They were, they were trackpot nuts. Okay. The audience who's listening and not watching Charles is holding up, flying saucers identified. They were just one of the instruction manuals. Gordon Lindsay was a nut in the fifties.

The forties and fifties, Gordon Lindsay was a nut job, okay? Now he got better as time went on, but he was a crackpot nut quack of a preacher certainly before the seventies. I mean, you can, I mean, he's preaching flying saucers, he's printing flying saucer articles, he's printing pyramidology, he's into British isuralism, pseudo science, Gordon Lindsay was a nut, you know, and I have actually, I should probably give you a tape.

I have a tape of Gordon Lindsay preaching in the fifties. And when you listen to that tape of him preaching in the fifties, John, I mean, it's like, I have to say, when I heard that tape in him the first time, it's like, oh my goodness, this man is a nut job, you know?

And again, I think I do, honestly, I do think Gordon Lindsay reformed in his later years. I really do. But back at this point in time, Gordon Lindsay's a nut. And so this is actually WV Grants book who is teaching in the school.

alongside the title. This is men in flying saucers identified, not a mystery. Chapter one, I went on board the flying saucer. Chapter two, I saw and talked to the man in the flying saucer.

Okay. This is this is who the chapter three, the men in the flying saucers will return soon. These are the peep. This was wrote before they opened the deliverance school, even John. I mean, these people are bonkers. They're bonkers, John. And it is significant. I was scrolling through one of my social media feeds and people have invited me to all these different ex cult groups.

One of them was an ex cult NAR group and I was just scrolling through and somebody had shared one of my videos and some former members were saying, you know, the content is good, the history, the research is good, but this man thinks that the NAR came from Christian identity. I didn't get into it because I don't argue with people, but I was reading through some of the comments and it was kind of funny because the people who are in the NAR have no idea where they came from. I didn't want to fight that battle. It's not my place and not my group,

but I cover it pretty well in this book, the weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR. But Gordon Lindsay was deeply embedded in the Christian identity movement. He was a speaker at the Anglo-Saxon Federation, the Anglo-Saxon Christian world groups. I mean, these were racist groups by the time he was speaking with them, racist groups. And I've been studying, you've probably heard it in our podcast, converging apostasy with Steve, but we've been studying Wesley Swift, whose influence in Christian religion is significant, but minimalized, kind of like William Branham. They don't want to tell you where all this weird stuff comes from, but they were militarizing

Joel's army. They were militarizing the UFO scare, the communist scare, basically any scare they could find. Anything that people can explain, the Christian identity movement was trying to tie it to the so-called false Jews that were invading America. Gordon Lindsay was part of this. Gordon Lindsay published a count at one time. I think it was like 15 different UFO books. He was spreading exactly what all of the Christian identity people were saying and speaking in Christian identity conferences. So this is a Christian identity movement. So let me set the scene. We're talking about the creation of deliverance ministers. 1966, William Branham had just died, the leader who spearheaded

the latter-rain revivals. All of these men were the platform from which all of their money was accumulating had just been swept out from underneath them. And they had to find a way to create a new thing because the old thing was dead. Without William Brannum, it was dead. And so people like people like Hobart Freeman, we're coming to learn how to how to join the new thing. And we're setting the scene for the birth of the charismatic movement. And it's coming from these Christian identity leaders.

It's it's a very challenging not untangle. And you know, we back when we did the historical research podcast series, if you go back to episode 21, we talked about we talked about the voice healing fellowship, which was an organization that William Brannum and many of these men people were part of. And this deliverance school was created by that fellowship. And you could call this school a almost a miniature seminary for the voice healing fellowship is what this deliverance school that was set up and Dallas was. And as it relates to Christian identity, you know, we

walked through that in quite a bit of detail too when our episodes on British Israelism, on serpent seed, on racism in the message. And it's it's it's it's an it's an onion you got to peel carefully. And you're exactly right, John, as far as these people all being together.

When you go back into the 1910s, 1920s, the British Israel branch of Pentecostalism, birthed both the Christian identity movement and the ladder rain movement at at the same time. And the ladder rain movement and the Christian identity movement is being born. It's being generated in the dying days of the British Israelite branch of Pentecostalism. And the the center of that is four square angeles temple. That is where you have. I mean, this is the God's honest truth. There are at angeles temple, the leading Nazis and the leading light supremacists in the United States, okay? And they are the British Israelites there and they're creating Christian identity. And at

the same time, Sharon orphanage is being sponsored out of there. They're also British Israelites and Sharon orphanage and they're creating the ladder rain movement. And there is absolutely an overlap in the ideology of the two movements. Now, would I call the ladder rain Christian identity?

I probably wouldn't myself. I see that as a distinct entity. But there is a there's a steep overlap in their ideology and they're cross pollinating and they're working together certainly into the 60s, certainly into the 70s, certainly still into the 1980s, right? And all of that influence is still there as the third wave of Pentecostalism is spun off and figures like Paul Cain and so forth are carrying that influence on down into these movements and you're right.

They've totally lost sight of the history. They don't know the backstory of their leaders. They don't know what they were involved in. And yes, Gordon Lindsay was deeply involved in this stuff. for the majority of his life.

We could say maybe he wasn't so much the last 20 years, but the overwhelming majority of his life, he was deeply involved in all of this stuff. And so I have just a few more pieces of literature I want to show from that Deliverance Training School, John.

So when William Brannum died in 1966, Gordon Lindsay published these two books, you know, one of which is titled, The Man Who Did Not Die, Elijah. Okay, he published those six months after William Brannum died.

The Elijah stuff is from the British Israelite branch of early Pentecostalism, and they morphed it after William Brannum died. They morphed it into this generation of Elijah stuff that these people believe in today.

It is the same ideology. It is just a forward evolution of the same stuff. And you'll find the origins of this in books and literature like this, which they began to create after, right after William Brannum died.

And if you're in any of these groups, I mean, I'm sure some of them are absolutely Elijah obsessed, the Elijah generation, the Elijah stuff at the end, it's the same ideology slightly evolved. And you have, I have actually some images here on the back of these books, where they advertise this to different courses that were being offered at the school, and I'll just read some to you.

Course one, master key to success and prosperity, divine healing, Satan, fallen angels, demons, gifts the spirit. This course includes such subjects as divine healing, prayer, prophecy, but they have these courses you can enroll in.

And here is literature, this is by Gordon Lindsay that was being used in these early days of this stuff. This one is titled, The Real Reason Why Christians Get Sick and how they get well.

This is a book all about deliverance, the ministry of angels. This is all about interacting with the spirit world and doing deliverance. And so this is the stuff that's being taught at those schools.

And one more thing I'll throw in here, John. How do you guys think I have this stuff? Because the message preachers were there, okay? I got, when there was an old time message preacher who passed away in the early 2000s and his widow left me lots of his literature.

The message preachers were also at these things at the same time that Paul Cain was at these as well. WV Grant was at these. Herbert Freeman was at these, right? So all of our people, we can kind of bring back to this deliverance training school and we know that they had access to all this literature and I'll be honest, some of this stuff is really, some of it is dangerous.

Some of it's normal Christianity, but some of this is dangerous, a cultic brainwashing material that harms people. It is very dangerous. And keep in mind, before he died, William Brannum was part of this thing.

They were trying, to recreate another movement like Laterane because they've made so much money off of it. And you know you're right, it wasn't that Laterane was a Christian identity movement, but it was that many of the leaders who were in it were deeply tied to Christian identity.

William Brannum is not, if you go look up Christian identity leaders, you won't find his name, mention, even though he is preaching the same Christian identity doctrines of Wesley Swift, he was actually, I would say in some ways he was more popular than Wesley Swift in teaching his serpent seed Christian identity doctrine.

And these guys were creating a new movement, Brannum was part of it, Brannum died. And what happened after he died is interesting because you find Gordon Lindsay preaching the Elijah's coming, you've got Wesley Swift who is without question the most notorious Christian identity white supremacy leader saying Elijah's coming.

And they were recreating the manifested sons of God that early days of the Laterane they had developed this notion that the coming war was imminent and that the Christian people needed to form as an army to battle against the forces that were coming.

And Christian identity leaders were saying we see the enemy forces are approaching because of the UFOs and that's why you have Gordon Lindsay preaching the Elijah preaching the UFOs and it all ties back, Wesley Swift was, and some of the Laterane guys, they were preaching that the things like the statements from the Old Testament, the sons of God, so the daughters of man, they were talking about the Nephilim and they were tying that to Christian identity, they were tying the trail of the so-called serpent seed

through ham, through Noah. I was talking recently with a guy who had escaped the NAR and NAR circles that you would not even believe it. They're teaching all of those elements but they've taken the name white supremacy and the colors out of what they're saying.

You're exactly right, John. And the way this ideology works, so a word that you'll find more commonly used, John Robert Stevens group did this, for example. They would call, instead of you saying everyone was serpent seed, they said they're Nephilim.

They're Nephilim. Well, the Nephilim is the Greek word for the serpent seed in Genesis, okay, it's the same thing, right? And I know where we come from, we believe the Nephilim were the serpent seed, but we said serpent seed, not Nephilim, right?

It's the same thing, guys. And if you go to Christian identity, it's the same thing. It's just a slightly different word for the same thing. The Nephilim are the serpent seed, okay? And who are the Nephilim?

And so it's the same stuff. And if you go into Christian identity, you're gonna find the same thing, you're gonna find the Elijah themes. You're gonna find all of the same themes, right? That you have that are in Latin, terrain and is evolved into the movements today, but they have taken it and they have continued to deeply emphasize the racial pieces of it.

Whereas the message and the charismatic movements, they have de-emphasized the racial pieces, but they've kept a lot of that same ideology. And the racial connotations are still there baked into it. It's just, I know where we come from, John.

The leaders absolutely knew this whole thing. They knew it was racial. Absolutely. It's the secret of the leaders. And I can't help but think that Paul Cain had to know all that. I mean, he was in on it, right?

And if Paul Cain was in on it, well, is Mike Bickle in on it? I mean, you know what I mean? So as you carry this on, are the leaders in on it? You don't know, but I know where we come.

Absolutely, the leaders were in on it. There is no way. There is absolutely no chance. Zero chance that Paul Cain was not 100% aware of all the racial elements. And it's one of the great hidden revelations.

You think he did not teach that to the other leaders? I mean, you're a fool. I mean, you're just a fool to think that it's not passed on. And it's like Scientology, you worked your way up to the higher level.

You're going to get to know the advanced mysteries. Okay. That is how these religions work. And I recently published a video on John Wimber surprising to me, because I didn't realize that people who'd escaped this thing would give him such a steam.

Because he's the one who helped promote the Kansas City Prop. The Kansas City prophets would not exist in the way in which they existed and would not have developed into IHOP in the explosive manner in which they did without John Wimber.

Like you said, there were men who were not Christian identity people in this movement, but they're working with the key figures and helping lift them up in the shepherding movement. You've got Eldon Purvis, one of the most notorious Christian identity leaders, not militarized, but religiously militarized.

And he's helping the shepherding movement get started. So you've got all of these key figures of Christian identity who are swaying the direction. I'll say it like that. Maybe the whole movement wasn't Christian identity, but Christian identity was swaying the direction in which this thing was headed.

So, and now you enter into the deliverance ministry part of this, whenever they're training ministers how to roleplay of basically ghostbusters, Charles. They're wanting to take the elements that I like of the movie ghostbusters and instead of having the little, I don't know what I can't remember what they call that device that they suck the ghost out, but instead they think that the human beings and these deliverance ministers are that device.

So you're correct, John. And so that's starting to get us into the brilliantly, I think, the beef or what we wanted to talk about, the meat of it. So we kind of talk through these kind of...

that is coming out of the Deliverance Training School that started in the 50s. We talked about some of the men who were there. Well, one of the men who was at that school quite regularly was Paul Cain, none of them Paul Cain, okay?

And these ideas were already being taught before this Deliverance Training School. It was really what the Healing Revivals was all about. Another term that is commonly used for the Healing Revivals is the Deliverance Movement.

The Healing Revivals was really the birth of the modern Deliverance Movement. And so that's where this stuff really became popularized. We've talked in the Historical Research Podcast about where those ideas originated in the past.

But as they set that school up, as they start training people, Paul Cain is a regular at that school. So Paul Cain disappears for a number of years after William Bram dies. Maybe one day we can talk about what we think happened there when he disappeared.

But he disappeared. And about 15 years after William Bram dies, he reappears. And he reappears with Bob Jones and the Kansas City prophets. And I can tell you, Bob Jones, or I'm sorry, Paul Cain was absolutely still connected to the message back then, because he was still coming around the message churches.

He was still preaching at message churches. There was a full-on cross-pollination happen in there with the teachings. So that's not the only connection between the message and what was happening with IHOP and so forth.

And in that time, he comes into contact also through the Kansas City Fellowship with the Vineyard movement, with John Wimber. And maybe sometime John, we need to do a full episode on John Wimber, because I've heard some people say some different things about that as well.

And I'm not going to go into all my opinions on John Wimber here, but I kind of put him in the same category as the Gordon Lindsay's of the world, the dear princes of the world.

I mean, obviously he had absolutely no discernment. He started working with terrible people who were rapists and child molesters. John Wimber was working with rapist child molesters, okay? Absolutely. He brought them in to the senior levels of leadership.

He let them teach at his conferences, right? And yeah, then later years he wakes up and says, yeah, they're all bad guys. We got to get away from them. Great, John Wimber. You know, that was the right choice, but you shouldn't have started working with them to begin with, right?

And you probably should have called the police and turned them all in, right? But you didn't, right? And so, I mean, that's kind of to the side. We can talk about that another time, John.

I don't like talking about stuff in the more recent past, but anyways, that all aside, for the years that Paul Cain and the Kansas City Profits were in association with the Vineyard movement, they brought their teachings in, and they influenced the Toronto blessing.

Absolutely they did. John, Paul Cain was teaching at their main... conferences in those years and those teachings absolutely played a role in what happened with the Toronto blessing. And that manual that you're holding in your hand from Randy Clark, he was key figure at the Toronto blessing. Okay. And what is in that book is the exact same stuff that's in these books from this deliverance education school all the way back in the 50. It is the same thing guys. It's the same thing. Repackage. And where do you think they got it? From Paul Kane, who is at the school, who got it from the same guys, who got it from

William Brannum, who got it from Bosworth, who got it from Alexander Dowie. I mean, this is end to end connected. This is not new. It's not divine revelation from God. It's not some new great way to do things. It is the same repackage stuff from the British Israelite branch of early Pentecostalism. This is the exact same stuff. It is. And when you read it, you know, if you know what it is and you understand the significance of this, it gets so funny because they're they've created a manual that makes it feel like you're becoming. They're basically

teaching you how to become a role player. And all of these men as the irony is all these ministers condemn the dungeons and dragons games, any role playing game that you had as a child, they condemned, but they've created they've created the same thing for adult ministers. And when you get into some of the things like it's telling you how to brush your teeth, how how to present yourself by wearing nice clothes. And I mean, get into the role, step into the role, guys. And that's the stuff they're teaching. I know and I bring this up

only because of this in talking to some of these people who are strong defenders of John Wimber. They consider all of this that he did and all that he created as this big, holy thing. And they have no idea that some of the things that was coming out of this was literally just role playing for adults.

And whenever they began, you know, whenever this movement began and all of these figures were seen as creating a new move of God, a new thing, a new, you know, John Wimber is credited with many, many things that the charismatic movement hold near and dear, which is probably why I get off the backlash.

I'm real careful talking about John Wimber because again, I think I believe there was a reform that happened at a certain point. I do believe that he reformed at a certain point and he reformed to a certain degree. And I believe the vineyard movement, my understanding of the vineyard movement is they have reformed some of this stuff out. And so I'm I just want to make sure I'm not passing any sort of judgment on the vineyard movement or John Wimber as it as these things exist in the later parts of their lives as it is now. But you

come back to what was going on in the 80s. early 90s. This is bad news. This is bad news. He was in bed with really bad people. They were bringing in some really bad influences, and it did some really bad things. And if the ones that didn't reform are on the same track that the message is, you know, they're just a few years behind, right? You look at where IHOP went. Well, IHOP had about what a 15-year head start over the vineyard churches that imported this stuff. Give it a few more years and see what happens,

you know, see what comes out of this stuff. Because everywhere it goes, this thing seems to produce the same ultimate effects. It just takes so long for it to metastasize and to bring forth. And then you find out what's been under the covers all of this time. And it is this way all through this ideology. I mean, all the way back to the early days of it. And so let's talk just a little bit though about this about this training manual, John. And again, you can just see the same stuff in here. And this stuff, I'll be honest, is really deceptive. It is really bad stuff. One of the first

things, if you look on just the first page, there be one, it's talking about what their objective is. And they're saying their objective is to facilitate the moving of the Holy Spirit under the direction of the pastor or the appointed leadership of the team. And so just very clear, they are basically coming and intervening in this person's life that they're dealing with.

They are taking upon themselves the role of the Holy Spirit. They are inserting themselves into an unhealthy role that really only believes that really only belongs to God. And they're doing that from the outset of this. And it's really right there embedded in these documents. I'm here to facilitate your connection to God. I'm here to become your mediator. I'm here to help you have an ecstatic experience and guide you through it. And you know, it's very, they're putting themselves in a position that's going to give them a whole lot of power over the people that they're dealing with.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to

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On behalf of William Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. It's funny to me because of their adults doing this. That's really the only reason it's so funny. But it's a very serious thing what they're doing.

Whenever you're a kid and you're playing these role-playing games, usually it's a sort of a medieval kind of game and you've got a fake sword and you're fighting fake dragons and it's all fake and children know that this is all fake while the adults in these movements are saying you guys are inviting evil spirits and all of this stuff, well these deliverance ministers are actually role-playing as the Holy Spirit.

And if you really think about the consequences of what that is and how that looks, it's a very, very serious thing. These men are role-playing as the Holy Spirit to the people. And think back to, we talked about it in our podcast where all of this went.

Back to the statements where they said, this movement is like the manifested sons of God, you are the manifestation of the Son of God, you become the sons of God, you be there for like God's that kind of doctrine all flow throughout this whole thing.

They have literally taken William Brannem's very extremist version of the manifested sons of God doctrine, the Joe's Army doctrine and they have elevated themselves into a position where they are the Holy Spirit on the earth.

And so therefore, by result, every single scripture passage from the New Testament that is talking about the Holy Spirit, it is applicable to these men and they use it. If you listen to any of these sermons, whenever they reference the Holy Spirit, they always go back and they point to themselves.

They may not directly say, I am the Holy Spirit, but like William Brannem did, it's by example, they say the attributes of the Holy Spirit are this, this, and this. And then they go off into this part of the sermon where they say, and my ministry is doing this, this, and this, just like the Holy Spirit.

So these men are role-playing as the Holy Spirit. Here's a good example of how they field their way through these words of knowledge. So on page C5, it says here, test your impressions. So leading up to this, you're supposed to have some vague impression from the Holy Spirit about this person you're performing deliverance on.

And it says, when in doubt, when in doubt of your impression from the Holy Spirit, stop and ask, if you feel a particular impression in your spirit, but want to make sure that it's from the Lord, ask the person if your impression makes sense or means anything to him or her.

If the person says yes, then the faith of both of you increases. If the person says no, you have proven yourself prudent. So basically, they're teaching this person practicing deliverance. deliverance to play guessing game. All right, I'm going to guess. I'm going to guess things about you. And when we finally guess something right then that guess must be what the Holy Spirit has impressed on us, right?

And as you get to do these things and you watch the people do it, they do get better at guessing, right? They get better at guessing and they finally hit on something where they can begin to manipulate that person about what's happening in that situation.

And this document, John, I got to say, as I read through this, I mean the way that this goes on to manipulate the people when they're in the prayer line, right? Here's some things that goes on with what they should do. It says, help the person deal with rationalizing tendencies, fears, or a loss of self control, right?

So if they're having fear, tell them just experience it. Don't try to analyze it. Okay. It's something like worshiping God. There really isn't a rational explanation. So what are we doing here? I'm impersonating the Holy Spirit. I'm guessing at things about you. And I am telling you, don't actually try to rationalize any of this. Do not apply any critical thought to what is happening here.

But just experience it. Just feel it, right? What is this? John, we're brainwashing somebody. This is brainwashing somebody. Okay. Some people fear failing. If the person has back problems as pregnanters, elderlies, heavier your frail and fears falling, right? As if people get knocked out.

You may want to ask if he or she would like to sit down to receive prayer. It goes on to say, tell them to give the Holy Spirit permission to do what he wants to do.

You remember back in our historical research podcast, Charles, we were talking about the pamphlets that they passed out for the early version of what was deliverance, which was the divine healing. And they had disclaimers everywhere. If you go home and you doubt, then this thing is going to fall back on you.

And what they were doing, they were heading off legal issues and legal battles at the past because if these people were truly sick and they go home and they get worse because of these ministers, they get sued.

So there were some legal disclaimers. Well, if you picture what this is, this is a quote-unquote deliverance ministry claiming that they can cast out demons. And one of the things that most people consider in this movement, consider to be demonic, is any sort of mental health issue.

Really, they take the people who have some sort of mental health issue and they demonize them and make them feel that there's a demon in them. But there's a problem with this, Charles, because if the person is under psychiatric care and these ministers claim to have healed them and they stop taking their meds, these people could go do some very...

Some of them could do some bad things, and so they've got, in the manual, on page G11, it says, you will have occasion to minister to people who are consulting with a counselor or psychiatrist, and this probably is not a problem if your ministry is for physical ailment.

However, it's for emotional problems indicated. You should ask the Pre-E to get approval of his doctor or counselor, and I know having talk, or you can go back and you can look at my podcast episodes with Jesse.

There's not a single professional who's going to say, yes, I agree. You should go to a deliverance minister for your mental health issues. I also have a copy of the same kind of thing which was taught at IHOP, and remember, Branum taught Paul Cane, Paul Cane taught IHOP, Paul Cane worked with Wimber, all of this stuff.

In there, they have similar disclosures. On page 3 of their deliverance manual, it says, do not try to cast out emotional pain, and don't rush them into pain, let them grieve, and there's clauses in here like in the interview process where it's saying ask if they need someone to agree with them for their freedom.

In other words, ask your doctor if it's okay if you do this, and all of this is for a person who is seeing who is under psychiatric care, who is taking their meds. They want to avoid a situation where they stop taking their meds because these guys are fully aware that this thing is all a game.

They know that they're not going to heal somebody who desperately needs medication. Let me jump ahead in this book to the divine healing section, John. So there is in this guide, a starts on page F2, I think, and goes for about 15 pages, and there's a whole explanation in this book on divine healing.

And what you'll find in this biblical case for divine healing is, hey, the exact same thing that happened to be taught in the deliverance training school. And it's basically a guide to positive confession and a guide to dual atonement.

That is what it is. And when you get beyond that, the book then begins to give you a five step model for healing. And it actually walks you through how you perform the faith healing exercises.

And what I want to read, starting on G3, I'm just going to read some of this to you. And you can just see how this ultimately can be manipulative and harmful to the person.

But it says, briefly interview the person requesting prayer. Be attentive in general, a loving attitude on your part will do much to reassure the person that he's in good hands. Ask him or her what physical condition the need is, but don't go into lengthy detail.

For example, what's your name? What would you like pray for? What is your condition? Have you... seen a doctor, do you remember what's happening in your life when this condition started? Did anything traumatic happen to you about the time this condition started?

So, they're already starting to probe to try and figure out what you did to make yourself sick, right? That is how this thing is opening up, right? Did you have an unbelief? Did you have a sin, right?

They're trying to figure out why you made yourself sick. That is how this thing starts out. It's not obvious. That's what they're doing. Exactly where it's going. So, they go on and they have the person pray for the person.

And if the cause of spiritual, they're, you know, rebuke in the devil and cast in the devil out. As it comes down, they give specific prayers for all the different kinds of illnesses that a person might experience.

There's a prayer for if you have arthritis, well, arthritis is a demon that needs cast. So you cast out the demon of arthritis. Let me read you the diagnostics. Okay, after you, it says, if you're making no progress, okay, consider interviewing the person further.

Here are questions you're going to ask the person if they're not getting better. Do you or any of your other family members have this condition? Do you have a strong fear of anything? Is anyone in your family a member of the free masons or the eastern star?

Has anyone in your family ever been cursed that you know of? Have you had any accidents? Have you ever participated in any kind of an occult game? They're trying to find excuses that they can start to pin the lack of healing on, right?

And you just look what this does, right? They're targeting your family members. You're not being healed because your great-grandfather is a free mason. I mean, come on. This is weird stuff, John. I mean, this is really weird.

There are so many things in here that are just, it's just literally common sense. Don't do this thing or you might get sued. Don't do this thing or the person might catch on that we're role-playing.

But there's one clause in here that I'm glad they put in, page B6, it says, ministering at the altar is demanding and often physically taxing. Start fresh. Use deodorant beforehand and make sure you have plenty of breath mitts available.

I'm certain that that was added for one of the ministers that I know here locally, but I can't prove it. Some of this is just, you know, you read through it and you scratch your head and you think, do I really need a manual for this stuff?

But other things in here, like the healing, like you're talking about, they're edging towards the ability to create a stage persona of having the power to heal. But with the caveat of if you don't get healed, your family might be Masonic or you might have some sort of a demon in your past that prevents me from healing you.

When you start on page J2 and J3, this is where you get the specific prayers. You might even say incantations for the different illnesses, right? And how to deal with different ones. So if they're deafness, you cast out the demon of desmus.

You command the healing of the cause and cast out the deaf and dumb spirit. And it gives you the words to say, if it is cataracts, there are instructions on what to say to heal a cataract.

You cast out the spirit of blindness and cataracts. All on down here. It's all about basically anything is cast out a demon. The demon of cataracts, the demon of arthritis, the demon of, I mean, this is basically convincing these people.

They're possessed of demons. And I mean, if someone had cataracts, John, and they came up for prayer, wouldn't the more appropriate thing be to tell them to go to the optometrist and have them remove the cataracts?

Absolutely. Right. Because, you know, it's like a cleft lip. I mean, wouldn't the appropriate thing be to go tell them, well, let's go, let me, let the church sponsor your cataract surgery. Now there's a gift of healing, right?

Let the church sponsor these things, right? But this is not what they're doing. They're convincing them that all of these things is demonic activity in their lives. And then it's all designed to try and convince them that they brought it on themselves and in half the cases.

If you look on page J4, this is a really, really crazy one on J4. What if they have a short leg or a short arm? These are literally the instructions, John, to perform the leg length, the leg lengthening trick that you see these faith healers doing, right?

And I'll read it to you that says a difference in the length of the arms or legs can be by asking the person to stand direct with their feet pointing straight forward, hold out the arm.

So this is the arms at straight at the elbows. Let me jump down to the feet says a difference in the length of leg can be determined by asking the person to sit in a straight back chair with his hips and feet as far back as they'll go and his legs out straight.

You can then gently lift his legs off the floor and check the heels of his shoes. The heels of his shoes may reveal the difference in the length of his leg. You're not looking at the heel of his foot, you're looking at the heel of his shoe.

That don't work. You must be careful in lifting Ace, the person's feet off the floor, sometimes if there's a back problem lifting so don't lift his feet high enough to cause pain, well that's nice.

An alternate way of checking the comparative length of the leg is to place a thumb squarely on each ankle bone, holding the arms and thumbs in a straight line and then checking whether your thumbs are even.

If the legs appear to be different length, they may this may actually be the case or the apparent difference may just be caused by tipping of the pelvis, which is what we know. Because in either case though, you can pray the same way.

The correction can come by lengthening the short leg. or by the movement of the pelvis into its proper position. Okay, these, the instructions for the healing gimmicks are in here, right? And then they're going to say they heal the person just by adjusting their posture in the seat.

This is ridiculous stuff, John. It is. And like you said, it is how to create a stage act. I mean, pure plain and simple. That's what this is. If you go to the IHOP version of this document or of this training for deliverance, it's talking about the three-step policy of your stage act.

You ask, you say, is it okay to lay on hand so that you don't get sued for it? And you engage and it's like command and break the power of the enemy, rebuke the person.

But psychologically, the people have been manipulated to think they're rebuking the so-called spirit of cancer or whatever is the, whatever is the ailment. But here's where it gets interesting. You remember we, we talked about this in one of the episodes and I can't remember which of our revival history series, but there's a woman who she said, praise God, you, the William Brandham healed me.

I did not even know that I had cancer and yet he healed me of it. And that's what this is looking for. When it says step two, engage in the IHOP version, it says, pray with your eyes open so you can see what the Holy Spirit is doing and how they are responding.

And that's part of the gimmick, right? You look to see, do they really believe this stuff? If not, you just miss them and you let them go. If they don't believe it, or if they do believe with hookline and sinker, you can keep engaging them and keep on with it.

But step three is to interview and how are we doing? How are they feeling? How is your pain level? And then re-engage. In other words, hold them up there on the stage until they're nervous.

And psychologically, this puts the people into a state where number one, they just want to get off the stage. But number two, they're being manipulated. Their heads are being manipulated as they're doing this.

And everyone else in the room has to pray with their eyes closed. Well, the minister who's on stage gets to look at all of the eyes and see who is receptive to the quote unquote Holy Spirit and who to call up next because these people may or may not be believing in this thing that you're doing, this role-playing.

I want to just read a few more of these. That way people can understand just how screwed up an evil this is. Okay, so here's the section on arthritis. I finally got there. I'm going to read the section on arthritis.

This is on page J6. It says note anger, unforgiveness, and especially bitterness seem to play a large part in many cases of arthritis. So let me get this again. Anger, unforgiveness, and especially bitterness.

are the cause of many arthritis cases. And you've got to ask yourself, John, where in the world did they get this from? I mean, is that, you know, I don't know, Hebrews 21, 62 says, you know, arthritis is caused, but I have no idea. This is not in the Bible. This is nowhere. I mean, they're pulling the stuff out of the ether and I'll tell you the truth where it comes from.

It comes from this nonsense book stuff that comes all the way back from John Alexander Dow, we all the way from the pseudo-science garbage that these nuts people believed in coming out of the late 1800s, the early 1900s. Arthritis is not caused by unforgiveness. Arthritis is not caused by bitterness. Arthritis is not caused by anger, okay? Now, I say arthritis can make you anger, angry probably. I bet arthritis could make a person a little bit bitter. You know what I mean? But

it's not the other way. These things are ridiculous, right? And so it goes on and all of these things are about connecting the condition that a person has to, there's something wrong in their life.

Let me read you what it has to say here about cancer. So it says, after your preliminaries on cancer, this is on page J10, command the healing of all known causes of cancer, cast out the spirit of cancer, cast out any spirits of infirmity and affliction, curse the cancer cells. So now you are cursing the cancer cells, root seed and cell, command them to shrivel and die, command the immune system to function strongly against cancer cells, healing to any part of the body damaged by the cancer, and the bone marrow to produce healthy blood cells. So this is how they're treating

cancer. Move on to diabetes, the next one. Cancer had a long string of things that can cause it, but let me read you the diabetes one. You ask the person, do they have feelings of rejection, self-hatred or guilt? If so, seek the root of such feelings and lead them in a prayer of repentance and forgiveness of himself and others and renounce the spirits involved in those things to break their spirits and cast them out. So they're connecting diabetes here to having feelings of rejection, feelings of say self-hatred and feelings of guilt. Guilt does not cause diabetes.

Self-hatred does not cause diabetes. Rejection does not cause diabetes. What do they do in here? They're praying on people who are ill and who may have bad feelings related to their illness, and they're trying to convince them that their bad feelings are what's causing them to be sick.

This is so deceptive, so wicked, so manipulative, John. I mean, these people, I have very bad thoughts about these people as I'm reading this, John. I mean, this is awful. This is absolutely outrageous that they would suggest to people that these conditions are brought on to them by their feelings, and perhaps instead of the other way around, their feelings being produced by their conditions, right? And so they can to man down all of the diabetes stuff.

And then you go to the next page, K1, and it talks about the hindrances for healing. So now this is what they're gonna do for the people who, they prayed for their arthritis, but guess what, the demon of arthritis didn't come out.

You know, they prayed for their diabetes, but all they still have a spirit of bitterness. So God's not gonna heal their diabetes. And so now this section is about discovering what is wrong with the person as to why they didn't get healed.

This is outrageous, John. I mean, I just get so, this really boils my blood reading this stuff. Instead of telling this person go to the doctor, instead of saying, hey, maybe it's not God's will to heal you today.

We are going to examine your life with a fine toothed home, and find out what's wrong with you as to why God doesn't want to heal you today, or why God's not gonna heal you today.

And as you go through this list, it's gonna say, okay, here are things that may have caused God to not heal you. Unforgiveness, resentment, bitterness, anger, a lack of needed inner healing, a curse, generational problems, past involvement in the occult.

Do you think they realize that some of these teams they're doing came from the cult itself, occult itself? Lack of a desire for healing. Oh, you don't want it bad enough. Free masonry, what in the world?

Difficulty in believing that God heals today. Fear, unresolved guilt, disobedience, unbroken inner vows, ungodly soul ties, belief that God imposed the illness to develop the person's character. So you can't believe that this came upon you in order to give you a trial, right?

It can't be a trial. If you believe it's a trial to make you a better person, you can't be healed, right? So they're even taking away your ability to try and put what you're happening in some sort of a positive light.

They're totally breaking you down. Presence of a spirit of illness or affliction. So as they go through this, I mean, the next section is all about convincing this person that they are not being healed of their diabetes, of their cancer, of their whatever, because one of those things is wrong with them.

My John, I'm flummoxed, I'm speechless about what to say about how I feel about that. Yeah, it angers me. And you get to the end of this. They've got in section like M22, it's got post-deliverance ministry.

Your ministry is not complete after you have successfully ministered deliverance to a needy person, because they know that they're going to go home. And if you're diabetic, you're still going to remain diabetic. If you have high blood pressure, you're still going to have high blood pressure.

But it has this whole section for how to deal with people who continue having the so-called demon of diabetes demon of high blood pressure, whatever is there, whatever they're looking to be delivered from.

And it places the weight back on the shoulders of the person who has the illness. Encourage them to see whether or not they have habit patterns that need change, for example. You're not going to change your, well, I guess if you're diabetic, maybe you could change your eating style. But in many cases, it's not the case. There are there are afflictions that you have, especially the mental health ones that you're not going to change a habit and get rid of your mental health without medication if you're one of the people who needs medication.

And it goes through basically telling the people, disclaimers on, you may still have the thing after I have, quote unquote, delivered you from it. Such as page M24, it says encourage the preee to take all current hurts quickly to God for healing. So after you've been healed and you go home in the post deliverance ministry phase, if they still have hurts, then go quickly to God for healing. So this whole thing, it's basically reinventing the version that William Brannum had, where if you doubt and you go home, the thing's going to come back on you or I think the way that

Brannum and Bosworth said it is you'll go home, you'll still feel it. But don't doubt because if you doubt, you'll you'll end up getting it and it'll come back on you. That's all this thing is saying. In other words, I'm not going to heal you. I'm role playing. All of this is fake. And if you continue to be sick after I have delivered you, then it's really on your shoulders.

You know, John, after it goes through that section where lists all of those different things that can keep you from getting healed, you know, you got that. And here's the thing, if you go through that list of things that can keep you from getting healed, it doesn't matter who you are in the world.

We can find something on that list wrong with you basically, right? Do you feel have you ever felt guilty in your life about something? Have you ever felt fear in your life about something?

Have you ever doubted in your life? You know, you can go, it does not matter what that list is designed in such a way that we are going to find one or multiple things wrong with you, no matter what. And so you've been afraid for diabetes, the spirit of diabetes wasn't cast out. Now, oh, we're fine. You got some guilt, the feelings, you got some fear, you got some this and then it goes on and it walks you through how to tackle each one of those things specifically now that you've identified this root cause in the person. And I got to be honest, John, these things are things

that are going to screw up the lives of any person who actually listens to the wicked person who tries to practice this evil stuff on them. And by the time you get to L, they have an entire section on curses, okay? I'm going to skip over some and go to the curses.

So maybe they've decided that the reason that you can't be healed is because you have a curse. And it goes through, it's outrageous, you know, all of these different ways that you can get a curse on you.

And the curse might not be, the curse might be what's causing you to not be able to get this healing or this thing you're asking for. You can't have deliverance because you have a curse.

And so there's all of these things in here about how to get the curse, how to break a curse. There's a whole section on here. How can one break a curse? John, is there anything in the Bible about breaking curses?

I mean, other than the curse, which Jesus delivered us from by death on the cross, we're delivered from the curse through Christ. I mean, where are they getting this stuff from? I'm going to tell you where they're getting it from.

They're getting it from Gordon Lindsay and the deliverance school in Paul Cain all the way back. This is where this stuff transmitted from. This is not in the Bible. This is not Christianity. These are pseudo-science stuff, pseudo-religious stuff and occultic stuff that got absorbed into 1800s British Israelism, imported into early Pentecostalism and the British Israelite branch of Pentecostalism, passed down through the latter reign movement to the Christian identity movement too.

Through the latter reign, through men like William Brannum, through men like Paul Cain, through these deliverance schools that they created, into IHOP, into Vineyard and these other groups that invited these people in for a time.

I'm so glad Vineyard threw all them out. Good for you Vineyard, God bless you. But this is where these things came from. This is what they are and it is, frankly, outrageous. Frankly, outrageous.

And if you just think through the harm, I mean the absolute toll of destroyed lives that these things have caused, Derek Prince practiced all this stuff too, right? Maybe one day we should do an episode on Derek Prince and he is involvement in all this stuff.

These guys practice all of this stuff and they left behind them tens of thousands of absolutely destroyed lives because of this stuff. They even killed people through all this. If you follow this out to a slot, this will kill you.

This stuff will kill you. It will absolutely kill you. If you follow some of this stuff out to its logical conclusions, this is not stuff to be apologetic for. This is stuff to condemn.

Absolutely condemn this stuff. This is so far off the rails. I mean, God have mercy. I mean, some of these people need locked up. I mean, this is their killing people. And yet, I still struggle not to laugh because these are adults who are roleplaying.

I mentioned earlier Dungeon Dragons. I've actually never played Dungeons and Dragons. I've played other roleplaying games, but that one was one that... was so strongly condemned. And this book, it reads to me of Charles, if you've ever played a role playing game, those of you in the audience who have, you understand what I'm saying here.

But so this book is teaching you how to role play as the Holy Spirit. You are role playing as the Holy Spirit in front of your church. But your level one, and if somebody approaches you that has a level five demon on them, you're not gonna, you're not gonna get them out.

If they have a Masonic family, they're level five. And you're level one, you can't cast it out. And so you've got to wait until either they get demoted in level or you get a sin to level five to conquer it.

And that's not the way it works, man. Is the God so weak that it can't cast out the demon? If you're claiming that this is, I no longer believe in this way. If somebody has cancer, I know how cancer works.

You can study how cancer works. It's widely published medical knowledge how cancer works. And it's a deadly disease in some cases. In other cases, doctors have the tools now to help you through and bring it back into remission.

And in some cases eradicate it. These ministers don't have those tools. They can role play all they want, but in the end, if you have a cancer that's invading your body, the worst thing that can happen to you is to go to one of these deliverance ministers and put your faith in them instead of the doctors because then you're gonna go home and you will die.

And when all the family comes to these men and they say, I'm sorry, they had a level five demon and I'm only level one, I can't cure it. Therefore they died. The family have been manipulated to believe that this man who just cost them, in some cases, cost them the life of a family member, is speaking honest to God truth to them.

For me, that's the problem. Roe playing is fine. Church is not the place for it, obviously, but if these men want to play like children, they can go play like children, but don't do it at the expense of other people's lives.

It is so sad, John. It's so sad, you know? I think just the way those divine healing things, the way they carry out, just the way they destroy lives. I mean, and you and I come from the message, John.

I mean, we have seen, I mean, how many? Hundreds, thousands of people do we know that live this kind of through these sorts of things? And we could just talk for so long about how these things are so harmful to people.

I know I could, for sure. And that's just the divine healing instruction section. There's another section on there on how to do a word of knowledge to read into people's lives and to give them words of knowledge for their future.

And it's all just manipulation. The whole thing is manipulation as you go through it. You know, does God heal people? Absolutely God heals people. Does God know everything in the future, in the past, in the hidden secrets?

He sure does. Because yeah, of course he does, right? But he don't give training manuals for these sort of things and hand them out to people and tell them, go probe around and screw up people's lives and play around with stuff.

God don't do that, you know, but that is what this stuff is. This is a, these are really just people grasping at straws coming up with things to try and make themselves feel big and important.

Thinking, some of them actually thinking they're doing the will of God, but actually at the end of the day, destroying, ruining, harming the lives of the people that they perform this on. And the poor people that sit there, this stuff is brainwashing.

The brainwashing techniques are in it. The poor people will sit there and they will genuinely believe the stuff the preachers tell them, my family has a curse and that's why I can't get healed.

My family has a curse, that's why these things are happening to me. I have a spirit of diabetes and I just don't have enough faith to get the spirit of diabetes cast off me.

I'm a bad person. Oh, I have a guilt over, you know, situation that happened 50 years ago in my life and God is punishing me for. This is the stuff that this creates and all of this puts burdens on those people.

It makes them feel bad, it hurts their lives. Instead of just telling them, Jesus loves you. Jesus died for your sins, right? You can be free. Instead, this just hems guilt, then pain and suffering on people, right?

It is so sad, John. It just breaks my heart looking at these things. Absolutely. If you understand in the terms of a role player, then leave the man who are level one and go to the level 100 God because these guys, they can pretend to be the Holy Spirit all they want.

They'll never ascend past the level that they're at. So this has been crazy fun, Charles. I could go on forever on the nonsense that's in this book. But everyone who's listening, you get the picture.

It's a nonsense term that has been invented. There is no deliverance minister, you know, in the Bible. If you go look for the term deliverance minister in the Bible, you're not gonna find it.

This is not a thing. God sent the Holy Spirit and as much as these men want to imitate the Holy Spirit, it's a fake imitation. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Brandom.org and ChristianGospelChurch.org. For more information about the history of William Brandom and the healing revivals, you can read, come out of her, my people, available on Amazon and Kindle.

And for more information on the dark side of Latter-Rain, and the NAR, you can read, weaponize religion from Christian identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.