Our Stories: Escape From YWAM - Pascale Chancey

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Pascal Chancy, ex-missionary for Y-Wam. Pascal, it's good to have you on here. I think you are the first guest, maybe, that I've had from Y-Wam. I've had a few people talking about it and a few people who were loosely connected, but I think you're the first, at least the first missionary for Y-Wam that we've had on the show and really good to have you on. I'm

very curious to hear more about your story, so maybe if you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Well, it's an honor to be with you. Yeah, so I'm Pascal Chancy. I am originally from Montreal, from Quebec, so I'm French Canadian and I mostly grew up in West Africa in Mali. My dad had a stint in seminary and decided being a pastor was not the way to go and he decided to do microfinance work and lead projects in agricultural development. So that is where I grew up mostly, but my parents, to the great shock of their family,

decided to become Christians and I grew up in a family where being Christian was taught me that if you are French Canadian, you are white and you identify as a Protestant or even an evangelical, you are a minority. And even in the context of growing in a predominantly Muslim country, same thing. If you are Christian, you are a minority. And my, the form of Christianity that was passed down to me was predominantly the NAR world because of familial connections. And I, I, to, I became a missionary with Y1, but the only reason to explain how I became a missionary

Y1 is tracing back some of those early childhood connections with the NAR world. I spent a lot of time in the South and the United States. Growing up and it was you're a minority if you weren't a Christian down on the South. It's changing a little bit now I think there's a lot of immigrants, but so it's interesting to hear that you weren't Um that you were the family connections brought you into the ministry. I'm curious to hear how all of that came about The when we moved to my family moved to Mali we moved as um

Not missionaries every you know a lot of the question is like you grew up in Africa weren't you missionaries now We were doing you know we were expats. I was like what we call immigrant you know White immigrants to other countries. We were expats and we attended an American international school I have two younger sisters, so um that's you know Going from not speaking in English to Speaking fluently in two years that this American international school very diverse ecosystem people from all over the world and Really I took it for granted that that's was my norm like I have friends who are you know

Muslim or Unchurch Who are from all around the world and I thought that for granted Um, it's not until I moved to the United States in 2015 that I was like oh, this is not normal um But uh because we were introduced to English it opened up a world that was vastly um more Christian I would say and they different kind of Christianity that um I had grown up with my We know my formative years are going to Presbyterian churches Multicultural very respectful of the um Secular civic I almost like Quebec has a Is very protective of its uh separation of church and state

And it's very secular and it really protects it and it's almost like if you're a Christian But you practice kind of that Respect that tolerance for others. It's very much it's a it's a liberal country that um from the 1960s onward Definitely democratized that um, you know rapidly uh socialized I know as the US was experiencing a backlash uh from conservatives over civil rights The expansion of civil rights in Quebec. It was going to be opposite It's like the expansion for everybody and so my parents even though they were Christians and You know charismatic to boot. They were not reactionaries

And so those values, you know took up with us when we were exposed to this English Christian world American Christian world um Really we were That's where I we began to make connections um between the kinds of uh guest speakers that would come To our churches and what the teachings they would bring and uh It was, I don't think it's high, I had not been exposed to an English education.

I would have had the same foundations in this neocurismatic world. Gotcha. And for the listeners who are unfamiliar when I throw the phrase out y-wam, I'm certain that there are many listeners who have no idea what it was.

No. Can you describe what is y-wam? Well, my introduction to youth with a mission was through family friends. My parents and Molly became friends with, I would call them the regional directors of this very decentralized, deregulated mission organization.

For me, they were just down the earth missionaries doing a really good job connecting different churches together. Their whole thing was unity in the body of Christ for worship. And it's an acronym, right?

Y-wam is youth with a mission, right? Yes, youth with a mission founded in 1960 by Lauren Cunningham, an American evangelist who would say originally associated with the Assemblies of God. And he was a young college student who went to the Bahamas with a gospel quartet called the Liberators and doing, yeah, where he was told by local communities that, yeah, young people have wrecked havoc in their community dating local girls and Lauren is so distraught about it.

He says, that is, these young men were culturally insensitive, but they had a great point. Young people are not attached to any institutions, they don't have any commitments back home. What a great idea to send them out into the world to do evangelism.

And on the night before, well, praying before, I guess, a sermon that he was supposed to preach, he had a vision. In the vision, he says that he saw on the white wall a map moving and it was very dynamic and there were waves crashing over continents and the waves kept receding and then coming back even further in.

And he said, as I look, those waves transformed from just being watered to being young people. And they were people like me, he was 21 years old at the time, but they were even younger and they were going to all over the world preaching the gospel, going into the streets, the bars and even home to home and sharing the love of Jesus.

And he felt like God had downloaded to him. almost a vision of a way to transform missions back then even in the assemblies of God you had to be handsome and under the hierarchy of authority you had to have be trained and you had to fundraise in a specific way like be sent out and he felt like you was limiting the spread of the gospel and even the young people's ability to do missions so that's how it's I mean that's the vision but I think the story of how he you know he says this came from God is because

he had a formative background in the assemblies of God with parents who were ignorant preachers who had taught him how to like the stern the voice of God and everything from you know finances to where the ministries had it and there were a lot of ministries that had youth programs Billy Graham had I think it's called youth for Christ and there are a lot of copycats that were created I think Jim Jones even even had some sort of a youth program he Jones actually began his ministry as a youth minister so it paints these these weird pictures some of them are good some of them are not so good youth

with a mission why why I'm well if you could guess what was their target age for the the children that were in it well this is I will answer in two parts one is young people outside of like that come out of high school basically so 18 to 25 year olds really which is of sometimes a time for kids who are looking what to do they're very passionate I remember myself over 15 years ago being very like having lots of energy being wanting to belong to something bigger than yourself and I think they tap into that desire that teenagers have

of having some sort of impact but early on youth with a mission also saw the need to target even younger people and with children ministries preschool education and like kids camps which is where with the people in Mali that's how I got interested in doing youth with a mission is because I wanted to work with children actually I had been told prophesied in African instituted Pentecostal churches that I would become a missionary in work with children so I knew of all of the programs that's why I'm offered in that area and was like oh that's for me yeah that's you know and not everybody who are in these youth

programs even the youth programs not all of them are bad the the cult that we They had a youth program and they've got a camp here locally. I call it a children's indoctrination camp But the people who run the camp the people who are just Rank and fall members in the cult have no idea that they're indoctrinating children. They're doing a good thing So they you know, they feel like it's good with the y-wam programs once you were in it and you were working with the children I'm certain that you felt you were doing a good thing after you realized what y-wam was

Would you reflect on your years doing this as Helping the children truly helping them or was it indoctrination and helping them? No, the latter both I would say yes, but I mean that's

You know If we go even further into the kind of things that we were teaching the children

I think we could connect the dots with a lot more of the foundational teachings that are you know key to the NAR world and I think some of them messed me up personally, but I know If you teach them at a you know four-year-old my child is four-year-old if I teach you know when I was teaching a four-year-old How to be a joyful obedient servant of God? How to listen to be attentive to God's voice?

That develops a kind of hypervigilance that can mess up a child's Interessence of like what is true? What's real and even their ability to

I don't know be critical thinkers as you always like to talk about and And Yeah, I it also messes up the nervous system. You just always like always on edge. Yeah I'm always looking at the critical side. I know there's there's two sides of things But I usually focus on the critical because it's exploring what we weren't allowed to whenever I was in it But they it seems to me that a lot of the programs like this they and in the NAR in general They're targeting the youth because if they can get them to Disable critical thinking before the age when critical thinking hits them the hardest they can stay in it and

You know, we I grew up I was Yeah, I grew up it was totally different than the NAR, but there's so many similarities We one of the doctrines we had was the and it's so wrong. I feel stupid saying this But we had this doctrine that we we were taught that the shepherd liked to break the sheep so that the sheep didn't get out of the Fold break the legs of the sheep and I've heard that yeah, we were told this is a good thing right well no shepherd's gonna do this man You can kill a sheep like this. It's not that's not what a shepherd does a shepherd tends to the flock

doesn't injure and maim the sheep. But we were taught this, but what that does to the psyche of a child is, it makes them, they don't want their leg broken. They don't want to step out of line because their leg might get broken, right?

So I'm assuming you had something very similar in Y-Wam. I mean, I, I wasn't, well before Y-Wam too, I was an eager to please child, who's one of my parents. I would say was almost addicted to the spiritual highs that they would find in religious conferences and in the church of their sister.

And that sister, my aunt was involved in a church in suburb of Montreal that is connected to Bill Hammond's Christian International Network. And also a different network in Canada called Watchmen for the Nations.

And it's, you know, I just listened to your episode today, which Charles on Deliverance and Healings and that brought me back to some of the extended church. I mean, church could go on for four hours in those settings, where, you know, God's bringing healing to the congregation.

This is a small-moment pop church that has never grown since the 1990s when it was founded. And from its inception, it's just been a handful of families who had people by having more children and intermarrying really.

It was just really weird, but they had the kind of dynamic worship that my parent really looked for. And the teachings that were not just, here's a, you know, three ways to better your family.

It was more like how to, you know, have grow your relationship with God, how to, and here I'm gonna bring in some connections to the latter end, but like how to walk in your own desk, like manifest God's presence here on earth, how to be the kingdom, how to, I would say the manifest this to me, you've got like manifest God of, sons of God, yeah, basically.

I was like, if you are not aligning yourself with a positional authority, I guess God's authority, as God's child, then you are not truly representing God on earth, you're missing out on the best.

And God wants you to walk in a room like a king in a queen and have such authority and such, you know, understanding of who you are that you can ask for anything and it will be granted to you.

So there were members of that church who had crazy testimonies of asking for favors with local authorities for stages for their, you know, ministries and being granted. or getting jobs that were beyond what they were trained for or what they could do and getting it.

It's just like these people really did think that once you understood who you are in Christ that anything was open for you. Yeah, Charles and I had a lot of fun doing the Deliverance Ministers looking through the Deliverance Ministers training manual.

Coming up in a family where my, as my grandfather was, that was the pastor, but I've spoken with many people who've escaped and some of them who've discharged, who their parents were. Parent was a pastor and you get a different perspective because whenever it's brought before the people as some spiritual event, there's usually a cause and effect and the way that the minister brings it to the pulpit is they'll tell you the effect, but they withhold the cause.

The children of the pastor or the grandchildren often know the cause that brought the result, right? But to the people, this is, whoa, this is spiritual, this is God is moving among us and you don't, you know, I'm not saying that God never moves among the people, but sometimes if you do something that you're expecting a result, it's very easy to claim some supernatural thing and even prophecy if you know that you cause something that will produce a result.

Yeah, I would say that church, well that church had a, produced its own original music, but to go alongside that, they developed a dance ministry and so a dance team that was trained as rigorously as a professional dance troupe and they traveled all over the world with the specially watchmen for the nations, that network, leading conferences in the worship, but whenever they would train and I had friends, you know, over the summer built relationships, people my age were part of the dance troupe who would say, hey, after you know, we hang out, I got to go train and they would go and they would be like one

hour, two hours, like on the, you know, exercising on the dance floor, but following that, there was always ministry time where somebody, sometimes it was the head pastor and she's quite something, the, quite the order and quite, she knows how to get the result she wants or sometimes it was another member of the church and what they would do is, you know, either group therapy is what I call it or they would, where they just confess everything in front of you and it's like trauma bonding or they would, they would do some like meditative exercises and

like soak in the spirit and whatever. Happened out of those things the main the head teacher pastor Would then on Sunday say to the come ask the congregation if they wanted the same kind of Growth healing whatever blessing God brought to the dance team and that's basically what church was like It's like whatever happened in the dance team which you know Was a lot of deliverance and healing ministries or stuff like that Well, that's what had the church experienced on Sunday So it was like the pre-planning of of the ministry Basically and I I've thought about it you talked about you know the power of fasting or the power of

worship to control minds But I have to say when you're like Spanth because you Work saw how like worked out your body physically so much you are vulnerable and I think my friends were vulnerable to spiritual manipulation So I've studied the works of many different cult experts and whenever whenever a cult can take a person and drive them into exhaustion It drives them into a mental state where the the mind goes into survival mode Much like the fasting whenever you fast over a period of time there comes a point in which your body goes into survival mode and

when it does There's this in your psyche you become like that you're looking for a parent child type relationship Because the the mother the father they nurture the children and so if the if the spiritual leader can step in as this mother figure or father figure then Your body will automatically recognize this and connect to it and they can wreak havoc with your heads once they get into that state So there are many different I think the last one I read It might have been combating cult mind control, but I think the last one I read

was talking about how they would Deprived the members of sleep because they would do the chanting and the exercise and sometimes late at night They would go into all hours of the night to just literally exhaust the people Yeah, I mean, that's what I was familiar with that even in the kind of Pentecostal churches. We used to go in Mali Meetings all night prayer meetings were a common thing and I I actually A knowledge now that I was exhausted physically when I

joined YOM I physically mentally In a weird period of transition in my life leading high school Was a bubble in itself. I funny enough went to a

prestigious boarding school in Massachusetts a elite like liberal art school because I when I hit 50 in the school that I was in in Mali, there were no more friends. And it felt like academically I was stunted.

So my dad's company provided for really great education that should have saved, guarded me from the kind of experience like entering cults afterward. And it kind of did, it was, it provided a balance, but I was still so determined to join YOM that when I was 18 years old, I was like, my friends, I headed to Ivy League school and I am going to Hawaii and become a missionary.

Wow. And what did your parents say when you told them that?

Let's say it caused a friction with my father who really wanted me to go to school. And you know, nowadays he was wise in that decision. But they were not the wiser because of their friendship with the regional directors of YOM and Mali.

And why I'm produced great music that was so valuable to a lot of Francophone churches. And I mean, we grew up with the recordings, all that. It was just like, of course, go do that.

I mean, you've always wanted to since you were 12 years old. Get out of your system kind of a thing. And so yeah, but I was at a place in my life where I was not healthy physically.

And so I was primed when I joined, why would my, there are entry school, they call it the, because obviously you don't just become a missionary, you have to have some sort of training.

And everybody who wants to join with you through a mission has to go through what they call the discipleship training school, which is a six month formation. I guess it's like three months of lecture phases where you get once every week a different topic brought by a different speaker, and then followed by three months of outreach, what they call it.

So you do evangelism. And when I joined to do my discipleship training school, I was already vulnerable to being indoctrinated. The groups that descended from the laterane movement, they learned by example, if the people are weak in any way, whether it's mentally or physically, they're more susceptible to joining a cult.

And they don't critically think, because they're in that state where they're looking for something. And if their focus is on natural physical healing or just to better themselves, they're more susceptible to joining the cult.

So that's very common among the groups. So you left the prestigious college life to go to Hawaii to become a missionary. And what was that like? I've heard of missionaries going overseas, but I've never really heard of any going to Hawaii.

Well, so in the story of why? I went, in the first 10 years of, you know, from 1960 to 1970, Lauren was just taking teams of anybody who, you know, he was recruiting people.

Actually, this is interesting. I found an advertisement for, you know, you, I know on your website, you bought a bunch of like, advertisement or in the early days of YOM, Lauren's like, anybody trying to recruit anyone.

Well, in the Angeles magazine, I think it's a 1959 edition. There is like, I guess, an advertisement in there for a meeting where Lauren was going to be the speaker, and his thing was going to be like, recruiting people for missions.

So speaking, but also like trying to get people afterwards to like, sign me up to go into your thing. And then, actually, in the same page, there's a William Brannum and David DePlecy, I don't know how to say his name, like, like, meeting advertisement as well.

So this is, I don't know, it's interesting. Wow. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah. I think I should send you a link. This is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For the first 10 years, it was like kind of random, and then in slowly as he was gaining more of people who were interested, he decided that there was, he needed, they needed more formal training.

And he thought that God gave him a vision of a school in Switzerland. And that was confirmed by different people, confirmed. They all like said, oh yeah, God told me, you know, go and do start a school.

And the biggest one was a man, I think his name is Willard Cantalon. He was a Canadian evangelist who kind of ran at the same time as William Brannum, had similar , you know, connections.

And who told him, yeah, God get to set, you need to go to Switzerland, start a school over there to train missionaries, and here I will give you an address and a phone number of a person who you can connect with.

So, him, Lauren Cunningham and his wife, Thoriline, who's the co-founder of Y-Wam. They took a one-way trip to Switzerland, started the school there. And then over the years, I mean, it grew, and they just kind of passed off the school to someone else, and then they went to Y.

Lauren had already been to YU before to do evangelism, and they just felt led by God, you know, to go there. And I think, sometime in the mid to late 70s, they bought a hotel that they remodeled, and it became what is now the University of the Nations.

First, it was called the Pacific Asia University, or something like that, and then they renamed it. on a, brought a man from a university in Chicago. And I can't remember if it was which name of it, but he was a, his area of studies was like chemistry or something, power and mom's dad.

And they asked him to create design a kind of a global university that would train missionaries in modular format. And so basically, that's where I went to. It's a huge campus at the time in 2010.

There were almost 1,000 people on campus. And I, you know, they had many discipleship training schools, but somehow I had been told that I should do one in particular, which is called Fire and Fragrance.

And at the time, it was kind of a brand new program that was led by its founders, then Andy Bird. And her name is Amy Ward. I think she was named Amy Solars before she got married.

And it was kind of like High Hop. Let's just say High Hop Casey. Yes, very much. It is because of the leaders, Andy Bird and Amy Solars connections to ministries like High Hop, Bethel, School of Supernatural Ministries, and Morning Stars.

It was brand very much like the love child of High Hop Casey and Bethel. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

They see one structure like this that's working and generating a lot of revenue. Well, let's copy that and let's do it elsewhere. And I have to say, if you have somewhere to pick to do it, I hope Hawaii is not a bad place.

No, and I had not originally wanted to do it in Hawaii. I even asked our friends in Mali, I was like, hey, I know you have schools here in Mali. Why can't I do it there?

And I thought about doing one in Costa Rica, because I had friends in Costa Rica. And it all fell for me. And everyone that I kept asking was like, no, this one in Hawaii, so I landed there.

And it was intense, let's just say, but it was familiar at the same time. The similar kinetic, expressive worship emphasis on prayer as the catalyst for missions that I'd heard of my whole life.

But it really had the similar teachings as was being taught in the high-hop Casey. I think the reason why fire and fragrance really started was there was a revival at IHOP in 2008, I think 2008, 2009, the student revival.

And I think it had such a trickle down effect in the charismatic world that, you know, at some point there were people who were like, we need to do the similar thing. We need to have a prayer room on the campus here in Kona, Hawaii.

And we need to, you know, be praying for the great next awakening now, you know, and people need to be so, like, emotionally prepared for that and willing to, like, commit their whole lives to living missionally into, like, the most spiritually dark places on earth.

And we're going to do it. We're going to do it in a prayer room where you're just, like, constantly bombarded with it. Either it's, like, so, like, serene that you want to fall asleep and then, like, you are having weird visions and dreams and, I mean, it's just your prime from manipulation or you're, like, hearing these messages that are, like, of warfare, of, like, the faith of nations depends on you praying for them and, like, binding up spirits and all sorts of things like that.

Basically, what you're describing is brainwashing and I've seen several sci-fi movies where they do the same thing with children, which is sad and scary all at the same time. You know, that's really, for me, that's one of the most horrific things about the NAR.

It's not so much that the churches are bad, don't get me wrong, but it's not that the churches themselves have enough pool to make it such a mess, but the NAR network, you create an eye-hop and then it's network with all these other churches and these other movements and then they pick up the ideas and, oh, well, it works if they're brainwashing people here, let's brainwash people in this other place too, and maybe we can make money.

And, you know, the bottom line, it's always about money and it's always about control, and unfortunately, it's often about sex as well. But the way these networks allow each other to spread ideas is the most destructive thing, because what it's essentially doing is rewriting the DNA of Christianity.

I agree. And for the longest time, I know since I'm over the last decade, I've been questioning how we have arrived in this milieu now, like the merging of politics with the charismatic world, all of that.

And I really, I've always said that it's because of the relationships. And it's all those worlds, it's all networks. I mean, that's the best way to describe it. It's just nebulous networks of relationship.

And so station is currency in that world. Who do you know, who you promote? I mean, that's how they get their gigs. Andy Bird has spoken multiple times that I hop. I mean, very good friends with Mike Pickle, in preparation for our outreach.

I'll talk to you about the outreach in a bit, because I think it's interesting. We studied Mike Pickle's the way that he breaks up a day in like 15-minute chunks. And we're like, this is like, here's how work and the break up are day into 15-minute chunks to be very productive.

And not just productive, but also accountable to the Lord. So yeah, it's, but he, I mean, Eddie is connected to so many different worlds. I mean, he's part of now, like, Empower 21, which is an AR network of leaders with Cindy Jacobs on it.

But there are a lot more of leaders. It's like, it's so global now that I even heard Frank, like, leaders from the French speaking world. There's a guy, Michelle Wendell, who is like a famous West African pastor in that world.

There's a guy Jean-Luc Cachelle, who's a Swiss mega church pastor with a healing ministry. And they're all connected. And they're all promoting each other's work. Any bird has worked really closely with Francis Chan, with Sean Foyte, with Lou Angle.

And now his biggest project now is like The Cent. And it is, it's global. I mean, Cent has gone, started in Orlando a few years ago, and has now gone to Brazil. He's going to be in New Zealand, the Philippines, Argentina, the UK.

And it's really the idea is to take Lauren's idea of young people going to missions. And it's just like, even less regulated, less, like, don't even come to Wyham. Just go out, like, in your own community.

It's like, they're just bringing people in these stadiums, and they pump them with worship. And these messages about committing one's life to the mission, seeing the generation transform. I mean, you're really targeting Jen Zina with very...

cutting-edge technologies. And yeah, the idea is that they're bringing God's kingdom on earth or taking the minion over all spheres of life, basically. Yeah, it's all those connections really that is the power behind this thing. And people, I don't know if you've seen the comments, but people often comment, you can't do this. This is guilt by association just because this one man is falling into air and he's working with this other man, you can't link the two. But in the NAR, it's different.

That's actually how this works because they're connected and because they're, I don't know what you call it, they're cross-pollinating. They're cross-pollinating each other's congregations. And so this thing just kind of builds up as this big empire that's all interconnected.

But you talked about outreach. Tell us a little bit more about the outreach programs. So following 12-week of lectures in Hawaii, I then joined a group of, I think we were 12 of us.

We went to East Coast of the U.S. The idea was that we were going to be connecting with houses of prayers and campus ministries to kind of pave the way for a potential wide-line base in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, that launching another fine fragrance school basically there. But to do that, you have to have the kind of the network of teachers and recruiting that would lead to that. And so that is what we did. We went to Yale University, asking God to send out, launch out the next wave of student volunteer movement, which to me was,

I mean, I had grown up fascinated by it. And when to a boarding school where that was where it was started, basically, I went to DL Moody's North Film Outterman School. So I was like, this is so exciting. I'm part of history. I mean, that's how they teach you. They're like, you're part of something bigger than you. You're creating history, making history this way.

But we eventually made our way down through Pennsylvania and landed in DC. And we stayed in DC for a whole month. And I have no recollection of us doing any sort of evangelism, any working with churches. But the only thing we did was prayer ministry. We stayed in like a million dollar house on Third Street Southeast, I think. That's like right kitty corner to where C Street is. That house right behind. Yes, it is. The house was there for traveling teams of intercessors, I think.

And that's significant for the people who aren't aware of what C Street is. I'll let you tell it. Oh yeah, yeah. C Street is a 12 story, like room built. I don't know. You can erase that part. It's like the I'll start it again.

It's like, yeah, C Street is the house that belongs to the family, which is a very controversial group that fellow brings in politicians and staffers for Bible studies, but was really in the limelight with like a documentary about it and then some scandals, yes.

And recently somebody just sent me in via email, I've got some CIA documents where the CIA is also connected to the family, so it's getting pretty deep. Yes, and why I'm apparently used to own that building?

I don't know that story yet, I'm so curious, I'm going to have to go look and dig into this one. I saw that. It's one of the news articles mentioned that, it's crazy stuff because you get people, they're bringing people and it's under the auspices of this Christian thing, but people that you don't associate with Christianity are coming in here and they're mingling with with each other and you know, you can't, you can't just really point a finger on it without solid evidence, but when you see somebody like, I don't know, Michael Jackson coming in with

these guys and yes, it's okay, he's the king of pop, but then the next person they bring is Hillary Clinton and Hillary Clinton gets involved with this thing and what are they talking about?

You know, she's not, at least I don't picture her as being very interested in NAR religion. No, I mean, and a lot of the politicians who've been involved are not as famous as she is.

But you know, they still have a oversized influence on Capitol Hill. Our host was a man by the name of Jason, I'm going to name him, his name was Jason Hershey and he's the founder of David's tent DC.

I think David's tent was a prayer worship movement that came out of the UK, but he also started YMTC and a guy was connected with another man on Capitol Hill named Dick Simmons, Dick Simmons who, men for all nations, I can't remember exactly the name of the ministry.

I will have to, I'll send you the link, but his goal was to get men to pray every morning for the nation, less God judge the U.S. for the sins of abortion, the great, like family values not being a thing anymore and I don't know, on and on and on, so Dick Simmons is a very well-connected intercessor who has an apartment or had an apartment building right behind the Supreme Court.

there's a prayer room there that we would do ministry in. So Jason Hershey would bring us in that building, mean it with Diximons, and then we would pray for the revival of America.

And Jason Hershey would also take us on tours of all the monuments, and then we would do prayer walks and spiritual warfare. And I think one of the things that stood up to me for that time was we went to an event that was led by Luangal, but I don't think it was the call because I've looked up and there was no the call on the Washington Mall that year.

But it was similar. I mean, I think Michelle Bachman spoke. I'm pretty sure Sean Ford was there before he became infamous. And the whole thing that stood up to me is like, all of my peers here who are American really do believe that if they don't pray, this country's going to hell in the hand basket.

And as a Canadian, it was just felt very strange. Even it's like, I was like the outside, or I'm like, they're so, this is like I was starting to see the marriage of, you know, conservative, a specific type of conservative politics with religion that I was not used to, priorly.

Yeah. And to be clear, it's not bad really to pray in what they're saying is fine. I have no problem with that. The problem is that they're influencing very powerful people outside of the public vote.

And in doing so, maybe they're influencing them good. I don't know. I can't say that they're not, but we have no control over it because we're not voting. And that's the parallel problem here.

That's not something that should be happening. Yeah. No, well, it's, yeah. But it's the kind of theology and the ideology of gaining dominion. Not through democratic ways, but it's, you know, NAR has been described.

I think I wrote it down because this was, I, I thought it was really good. It's somebody from the Southern Poverty Law Center described, yeah, them, you know, NAR being, it's not a political Christian movement.

It's more like authoritarian, anti-democratic movement within religion. And it's like, because of the way that they perceive the world in such a mannequin way, where it's like light versus dark, evil, like Satan's realm, where he had to push it back, you know, as people of prayer.

It's like anything that does not agree with their policies and their favorite politicians is demonized. And even I could see it back then in 2010. It's like the, it was beginning to form. And, but I, like I said, I was, I was impressionable.

I was young and willing to do everything, even stand in front of Supreme Court. with a piece of tape over my mouth that stood live. Wow. So you were fully bought into this. How in the world did you escape it?

Slowly. I was so after doing the discipleshiping course, even though I wanted to join the pioneering of the Wyoming Harrisburg Base, I was unwell physically and I need to go home. So for about a year, I just kind of regained my strengths, the program myself a bit, even though I really still wanted it to be part of Wyoming. When I rejoined, it was more through the becoming a preschool teacher. So they have a whole arm of training educators. And I went to Switzerland to the original base in Los Angeles, Switzerland. And then my training there, mostly. I went

back to Hawaii for a bit, worked at a preschool there under Lauren Cunningham's daughter, Karen Cunningham, who was my supervisor. But then mostly was either a preschool teacher with a preschool associated with the Wyoming base or was on staff, mostly helping out with operations there. And it was, I love the Los Angeles. It was a really good community. It was smaller, less than 100 people, very multicultural. But there were still some red flags that I looked back over the years, some of the stuff that was taught to us, heavy emphasis on worldview, on demonizing the impact of the enlightenment and humanism, especially in Europe. And in the world of education,

as we colleagues and I were trying to encourage people to develop Christian schools, there was a lot of imported ideas about homeschooling, Christian school from the US. So a lot of the reasons for Christian schooling were being imported into Europe. And the short story is things that not work out well for that preschool financially and also laws changed in Switzerland where four year olds now had to go to preschool, basically, state sponsored preschools. And so we shut down.

And at the same time, I met my current partner, who was already a staff member with a different Wyoming base in Montana. And so I moved to Montana in 2015. And it was a different experience altogether.

I moved from a community that I knew that knew me well to a place where I was a stranger. And I just mostly worked doing operations work, running a hospital- talent ministry, so guesthouse for people coming to visit.

And we both grew the solutions, but kind of the promise that we had brought us into a YOM, by then we were 25, 27, it just all fell apart. I was unable to get my full degree with the University of Nations, which is they're on a credited agency of like training YOMers globally.

And I was like, I need to get a proper education. And I, we left when we got married, we didn't have any money. We could barely afford rent for a studio. And so, yeah, we both got jobs.

I got a job at a local assemblies of Godchurch, so we were already members of, and my husband, work up doing some AV stuff. Wow, that must have been a very difficult journey. If you could give advice to people who are still in YOM, what advice would you give them?

Oh my God, that is a very good question. Why do I would,

I would say, for those who are still in, to, you know, we're trained to be discerning with all of these, I guess, techniques and sciences of how, like, intercession and how to hear God's voice for one's own life.

But I think the biggest thing is to not shut out outside voices of those who are still, who are not part of YOM. YOM is a bubble, and it, because of that, it insulates you, and it's a controlling environment that if you are not careful, can suck you in, and steal a decade of your life, like it did almost for me, and your, you know, youthful passion energies are, could have been spent, setting up your life for, you know, career or even, like, grounding yourself in one community, and instead, they're spent to dismiss an organization

that doesn't, that says they care about you, but they really don't, like, once you're out, you're out, and they never, you know, reach out again, and it's like, well, what are you running for your whole life?

It's like, I think relationships are keys. Relationships with family, who is not part of YOM, and also expanding your vision beyond the world of YOM, and beyond the world of charismatic Christianity, not exposing yourself to ideas that you might be wrong, and that you need to change, and a little bit of cognitive dissonance.

So is capable of bringing some light in what can feel like a very stuffed, stuffy environment? Yeah. That's very good advice. You mentioned what happens after you leave and how they disconnect from you.

It was just yesterday. I was recording a podcast with a person that I asked him, was it a cult? And I can't remember how the conversation came to be. He said, basically, the easiest way to tell a cult is how they react when you leave them.

If they react, you know, they love you, they would welcome you back, they wish you well on your way, they're probably a healthy group. But if they cut you off, never to be heard from again, and a lot of times they'll demonize you after you leave, it's usually a cult if they do that.

But anyway, I'm very glad that you joined us to tell your story of why, why I'm still so curious. There's so much more I want to know, especially when I found the sea street thing and then some of the other things that people have sent me about it, I'm sitting here scratching my head and I'm thinking, you know, I don't even know what to say.

It looks like a religion on the surface, but some of the things that they're connected to is very much not religious. So what is this? How do you describe this thing? I'm curious. I'm interested, to me, it's the story of how the Seven Mountain Mandate transformed.

It has its roots in YOM. Yes. But even before, the connections came through YOM and now have diverted back outside of it. And it's so key to, I guess, what we're seeing from Neocarysmatic World now with the Armenian theology, but it is now not just in the US, but it is global.

I mean, look in Latin America, South America, and Australia, New Zealand, I mean, there is a lot of, it is, you know, what ideas have repercussions and I love this idea that I've heard from someone else say, bad theology kills and it does, not right, but it has some really harmful impact.

Well, thank you so much. I'm so glad that you did this and I'm sure that the listeners are going to be very eager to hear more. So now you've given me work because they're going to ask me, please dig deeper into YOM.

This is crazy, crazy stuff. So YOM is so under-reported, under-studied, and often when people bring it up, it's because it's so deregulated decentralized, I mean, it's like in a 180 countries and it's like over 18,000 staff members.

So it's like, everyone says, oh, I've had a great experience in YOM, but there are people who say, no, I experience abuse, I experience, this was bad, like, so... You hear a lot of things, but as soon as you want to look into where I'm, it's hard to bring it all into a cohesive whole because of the way that it was intentionally structured or destructured.

Which fascinates me all the more. But anyway, thank you for doing this. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Audible. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can find us at William-Branum.org.

You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more information, you can find us at William-Branum.org.