Bruce Kinsey Part 2 - Faith Assembly Cult History

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Chino Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D. Ross, YouTube channel. Chino, it's good to be back and continue our conversation on Ruth Kinsey who I am just now learning about but there's so much wrapped up into this and I know that you and I have been getting a lot of emails from former faith

assembly members and they're going to be very interested to hear the rest of this one. Yes, they will, John and we are going to try to wrap it up here and this will be the the better of the two I would say because we have pictures we have some real good audio from Dr. Freeman himself when he actually delivers a prophecy to and against Bruce who's actually sitting out there I just shake my head at the lack of manner some public speakers have but Bruce Kinsey was as I said last time he was second in command around there at faith assembly he had

had a very dramatic conversion experience he had been elevated to ministry fairly quickly so his exit from faith assembly 10 years later in October of 1984 was the headline defection from faith assembly for sure caused all all kinds of problems we talked last time the very fact that he had been elevated to second in command and by that I mean he was given the big Friday night meeting or which became a big meeting on Friday night just a year after his conversion and that was not healthy for Bruce Paul says in first Timothy three six not an office less being lifted up with pride he fall into the

condemnation of the devil you know just puts you in a bad position when you're only a year into the walk and now you're in charge of the Friday night meeting and a year later he was in charge of a big meeting at Purdue University and he was also the one who was the head of faith ministries and publications that was the publishing tape duplicating arm of Dr. Freeman all of his books and tapes went out through faith ministries and publications and they had at one time three full-time employees but Bruce was the supervisor over that

And Bruce also, when Hobart was gone, was the one who appointed who was going to fill the pulpit when Dr. Freeman wasn't there. So, I mean, he was pretty much, even though he wasn't one of the assistant pastors, he was pretty much second in command.

And he was married to Kathy Freeman, Dr. Freeman's middle daughter. And they were, you know, a charismatic couple in Faith Assembly. I didn't know Bruce on a deep personal level at all, but we did communicate with each other.

I'm not really sure how Bruce found out about me. I mean, obviously, knew him. I'm small time. He's big time. I knew him as one of the big ministers at Faith Assembly. He had written that book, God will save your loved ones, and everybody had read that.

So, I knew him from that. I'm not really sure how he found out about me or knew about me. I was always lurking on the perimeter of the camp of Faith Assembly. I think he knew I was a critic.

And probably my guess is, whenever he got fed up, he knew Cheno would be an ally. He definitely was not going to have an ally anywhere in Northern Indiana. But, you know, I had heard his tapes, and I felt sorry. I liked what Bruce said a lot of times, but I felt sorry for him.

And I don't know all of Bruce's personal motivations for what he did. I can't vouch for Bruce's character and motives. You know, only his wife and family and closest friends would know that. But the little bit that I heard, I liked. I'm sure there are people that know things that I don't know.

So, I don't want to cast Bruce Kinsey in the image of an angel, where other people say, well, I know this, and I know that, because, you know, I don't know all those things.

And I did not know Bruce on a personal level. And since these podcasts have begun, obviously I've heard from, just like you said, people from all over the place. And I've heard some good and some bad. The meeting I went to in Elkhart last month, one of the people there told me a story that he heard from a co-worker at RJ Donnelly, the printing company, where Bruce worked and Jerry Burkett and other people.

Well, heck, that's fourth hand to me, so I'm not repeating that. And someone else has told me a pretty troubling story, but it's fourth or fifth hand. And so, you know, I'm not going to repeat that. I'm sure you, John, you hear all kinds of things about people.

And you have to either have to, well, you just have to have some wisdom and discernment to try to figure out. Now, it's... Any element of truth to this or is someone really trying to smear someone more than they deserve to be smeared?

And it's a difficult task to try to read between the lines. If I can get to a firsthand story where the person said, I was there or he said this to me or I witnessed that, I'm much more likely to repeat that that I am a third or fourth hand story.

Yeah, I get all kinds of crazy stuff, man. One of the problems for me is I see the good and all people and I don't immediately think critically or negatively of somebody. So when somebody, when I get an email and somebody is talking about another person and they lift them up on the highest pedestal possible, my first inclination is to just suddenly run with it and I realize that I can't do this.

I've got to put a little bit of critical thought. But whenever I dig into whoever it is they've sent me, I usually look to see not what they did but what people connected to them did.

In other words, if it's a minister and he trained other ministers, how did those ministers behave? How did they act? Is there in today's world, you have to first look, are there sexual assault claims?

And that kind of thing. And usually by the fruits of the people that they've trained, you can at least get a level of skepticism. It doesn't mean that they're a bad character but you know, I've got on Hobart Freeman, I've got all kinds of stuff.

People saying that no, you're trying to make this link to branemism and he's not doing, he's not, he condemned branem. Well, every single splinter group that branem created, they all eventually, whenever they become the new central figure, they're gonna condemn branem and say, it's my revelation, that guy doesn't have it, that guy went astray, that's what they all say.

So I have to take everything with a little grain of salt but you know, the biggest thing is just critically think about everything. Don't assume that somebody's telling you the truth about whatever is the spiritual leader that they want to lift up on a pedestal.

Just take a look at the pedestal. Yeah, and you mentioned sexual assault, the other thing that goes right up there with it that you have to investigate and be suspicious of is a financial gain.

It seems like those are the two really, really, really big things. And I think that was part of the problem of the top tier faith assembly ministers in a meeting of bruises in 1977.

So he's only been a minister four years and we're talking about almost 50 years ago. He announced his income that year was gonna be $48,000. And I'm not a watch. a dog on what an appropriate income should be for anybody or for any minister, but do the math.

That may not sound like a lot of money today to somebody. Maybe it does sound like a lot to somebody today. Maybe it doesn't, but you can pull your iPhone out and do a calculation of what that equals today.

And that's a really, really large income. And I don't begrudge the income as long as it's deserved and earned. But we've got to remember this guy is brand new and he's been elevated pretty quickly and he's got a pretty big following.

And so you just have all of this money coming in. So we get to the end of this discussion today, John. I have to give Bruce a lot of credit for leaving the church because you're walking away from that.

Bruce ended up selling cars at a car lot on Syracuse, Indiana. So you're giving up a lot of stuff. That right there to me says something about a person because normally even if you just don't agree with the leader, don't agree with the movement, you're not kissing your money tree goodbye.

You know, you're cutting down the money tree in your own backyard. You know, you're just gonna go along with it, complain a little, not be that happy, but have a good income. No one would give that up and Bruce ended up doing that.

But my problem goes back to what we continue to talk about that Bruce, even though I heard Bruce's message and I like some things Bruce said, you know, he felt he was a trained and qualified minister.

He had been to Hobart's quote unquote charismatic school or Hobart on Saturdays. It started teaching some theology, New Testament, Old Testament, introductions, some Hebrew, some Greek, you know, things like that. But they're getting all of their information from one source.

And for them, they thought that was right or they thought that was good, but that is never a healthy thing to do to get all of your information from one source. Even if the source was Moses or Paul, it's still only one person.

And what I always say is the maximum that person can know is what they know. They don't know a single thing beyond what they know. Where I teach my people, I think I know some stuff, but I said, wow, the only stuff I know is what I know.

I don't know what John Collins knows. I don't know what my neighbor knows, my wife knows, my kid knows, I only know what I know. Person be a fool to follow one person and one person only as good as they might be that just does, and it's not reasonable, it's not logical to follow one person because you're limited with that person.

Where they go off, you're probably gonna go off with them. And where they don't, still, you know, you're gonna max out out at your understanding of scripture with whatever you've been taught, unless you want to do something on your own, but see they were kind of encouraged, you know, they were given a few textbooks to read, but you know, don't read anything else because you'll get deceived because they're liberals and they're modernist.

And his faith has simply went on, you were even disallowed more, you know, don't read really anybody, you know, though everybody's tapes. And the funny thing is when Bruce left, when Bruce left, because I have people telling me this, he said when Bruce left, we were told, we had to throw away all of Bruce's material.

So that was material that he had learned there, but I'm telling you whenever you got on the outside, you were on the outside. And faith assembly just used excommunication, which is a biblical concept.

We're a communicant who has committed some act of sin like in 1 Corinthians chapter five is now removed from the parameters of the group, but faith assembly used excommunication in a completely unbiblical way, and they used it in a way just in injections.

You know, if you object, then you are out of here. And so anyway, back to Bruce, Bruce's problem, I think early on, was he didn't know enough to be teaching and neither did the other ministers, and he didn't realize it at the time, but you're just kind of plugging your way along, trying to figure things out.

And you think you do, you know, John, you're, you think you do, you're listening to whole part Freeman, he's got a doctor's degree, he's sharing his knowledge with you. You know, I just look back on these guys because real formal study and education was discouraged

and they didn't really have any other avenue or way to go. I mean, it'd be like you're on your back deck and your neighbor behind you tells you, hey, if you've got a legal problem, you know, I know as much as an attorney knows, just ask me and I'll help you out.

Or you got a financial problem, your other neighbor said, oh, I know as much as an accountant knows, but what I want to ask is, did you pass the bar exam? Did you pass the CPA exam?

Those are difficult exams. And the very reason that we have an education standardized test is because we're trying to measure your level of knowledge. Anybody can say I'm as good as an attorney, but have you passed the bar exam?

And that was my beef with them. It goes back to my statement that couldn't fight their way out of a wet theological bag, right? Everything goes back to that. And I'm sorry, but it does.

If you're in a profession, it should mean two things. Number one, you're getting paid to do it. So you're a professional. And number two, you can pass the professional exams that go with that, you know?

That's how you become a professional. So let me just, you're gonna like this, John. Let me just give you a story if I can, a personal story. And I'm gonna try to tell it in a way that, that does not come across as boasting because nobody wants to hear anybody brag or boast about anything.

We have our own stuff in our own lives. We can brag about. But when I was a young minister, and I've shared part of this, but let me tell you the funny part of the story, when I was a young minister, all I knew is what Hobart said, but because I was a pastor of my own church, it became obvious to me early that, he's leaving a lot of loopholes.

There's a lot of doors that need to be closed that aren't closed, or that need to be open that are closed. So, you know, I just began doing my own study. And I told you the story about CBD Christian Book Distributor.

When I finally went to that place, I had ordered thousands of books from them. And I didn't know I was doing anything unusual. I didn't know that was, that's just what ministers do. You need to be prepared to teach.

And I was treated like Elvis raised from the dead when I showed up there. They couldn't believe they saw me in the flesh, because you're the guy who's been buying all these books. So, I was training myself, but then here's the problem you have.

How do you gauge yourself by yourself? You know, it's impossible to do. You're foolish. You're a fool if you try to judge yourself by yourself. And I was teaching people in my church, but you know, they're my students.

I'm the teacher. So, how can I judge myself? You really have to be judged by your peers or by your superiors. And so, I lived in New England. I was pastoring a church and I decided, you know, I've got to find a good, conservative, evangelical seminary to attend, which is what I did.

And that's a whole nother story. But here's the point of that I wanted to tell you. So, to get in seminary, you've got to have an undergraduate degree, which I had from a secular university.

That wasn't a problem. But I couldn't afford, I was a poor guy. Remember, I made 20 grand a year. I didn't make 47,000 a year. I was poor. I couldn't afford to go to seminary, but they offered a scholarship for an incoming student, one incoming student, if you would submit a paper and then, you know, they judge the paper and award a winner from the pool of paper submitted.

Well, most people who go to seminary have already been to Bible college. They already have an undergraduate degree from Bible college. Well, I didn't. So, I don't have any papers. You're supposed to bring a paper.

that you use back in undergraduate days. I don't have a paper. So I sat down and wrote one and mailed it off. Here's my 40 page paper. Well, what do you know? I got a letter in the mail a few months later.

I won the scholarship to get in seminaries. So I thought, great, now I don't have to pay. So now I can go. Well, on opening morning for all incoming students, you're going to meet in a big auditorium and you're going to take an exam.

And what the seminary is after is just trying to gauge the level of knowledge that this incoming class has to know where to direct you, what courses, what the curriculum should be like, who your student advisor, your professor, advisor should be and things like that.

So we go into this auditorium. I don't know, there's the whole incoming class is there. We're given a test and it's a standardized test, covered Old Testament, covered New Testament, covered Theology and covered Church History.

And it's multiple choice. They can't take time to do essays and things like that. It's just a multiple choice exam. And I don't know, we were given an hour or two to take the test.

So you know how multiple choice exams go. You either just decide I'm going to check C, you know, you're a statistic major. I'm going to do C on every single one. And the odds are I'm going to get X percentage right.

The better way to go is if you know the answers, it's pretty easy and pretty fast test. So I finished the test, I turned my paper in and I walked, I was headed out back to my dorm room.

Got out in the breezeway and two of the administrators, supervisors, overseers who were watching the exam, one of which ended up Dr. John Jefferson Davis becoming my advisor, but two of them came out in the hallway and they said, hey, hey young man.

Yeah, and I'm like 26 years old. I'm a 26 year old kid. They said, hey young man, are you okay? And I said, yeah, I'm fine. And they said, well, we thought you got that you're sick.

Are you sick? And I said, no, I'm not sick, I feel great. Why are you asking me that? And they said, well, we saw you turned your paper in and you didn't get finished.

We thought you were sick and you're headed back to your room or headed to the restroom. And I said, no, I feel fine, I got finished. And they said, well, that's not possible. You turned it in in 15 minutes.

That's a two hour exam. That's not possible. And I said, well, I did finish it, but I guess you'll find out if that's possible whenever you go grade it. So they did, and I did, really well. And that's all I'll say. I did really well. So my point in all this, John, is we have as ministers, we have to be trained. And these ministers down there at faith assembly just weren't. And so we just, it just produced all kinds of problems. So Bruce is beginning to see some things in faith assembly, some things that are beginning to happen, some things that are

being taught that he is, you know, not in favor of. One of the things Hobart often did is just tell his personal likes and dislikes about cars or homes or words, choice of words and sentences. He loves to talk about food. And so he talked about peanut butter. And he was a depression baby, depression era child. And he made fun of anybody that would eat any that Peter Pan or gif that's full of sugar and calories and fats. And you don't know peanut butter, unless you've eaten real peanut butter. Well, guess what everybody does in faith assembly? They go to their pantry

and throw gif and Peter pan out. Because if it's not good enough for Hobart, it's not good enough for me. Well, guess what? Bruce, as I said last time, John, Bruce, he was a ex-marine sergeant in the Marine Corps. He had some worldly wisdom. He had some street scents to him and he had some independence to him. So one time he stood up in a message and this was probably tongue in cheek, but I think this was part of Bruce's personality. And Bruce said, look, I just want to tell all of you people that I don't agree with everything my father-in-law says. This was early on. This wasn't

when times got rough between the two. And he said, for instance, I like modern tasting peanut butter. And everybody laughed over that. But he was literally telling the truth that he was going to continue to eat that kind of peanut butter, even though everybody else was going home and throwing their stuff out. I mean, they would literally follow Dr. Freeman like that. And I think it's probably symptomatic of what? Of a cult of personality. You know, one of the real problems in this group and used the term wet theological bag and they found that offensive. So I'm going to use

the term dry theological bag. No, I've got. So I grew up in this type of religion. You know, I was on the inside of it. I know how it works. Whenever somebody wants to be a preacher, they say they feel the calling of God and they go before the leader, the pastor, the pastor says, hey, this guy's going to be a preacher. Welcome him. And then suddenly he's a preacher. That's how it works. You get instant instant preacher ship. And the one when you're in a cult, it's entirely different than a normal church. You have this hierarchy of control. So when one of the leaders in the hierarchy of control,

appoints another leader, the people give instant credibility to the person that they've appointed. And so instantly there are favored preachers, not just their preacher, they're a favored preacher instantly. And I use the example, I'm a mechanic, I grew up working on cars and I've taken the engine completely down to nuts and bolts and put it back together. I still don't consider myself a mechanic but I can turn a wrench. I've taught my son to change his brakes and to his friends my son is a mechanic because he changed his brakes. Can he, you know, if the engine,

if he's got to change the head on head gasket or an engine, can he do it? Probably not. But to his friends, he's a mechanic and to him, because he's done this small thing, he feels, he feels like he, you know, he's on the pathway to be a mechanic. Well, that's the way it works in these churches, man. Whenever you get that appointed, you suddenly, suddenly you become this favored preacher. And the irony is that for me on the flip side now that I'm out of this, anytime that I mention a Bible passage, even just the names of one of the books, you'll look

through the comment feed on my videos or on, you know, wherever it is, sometimes on my writings. And people will say that I'm a preacher and I'm preaching the wrong thing. I'm not a preacher, man. I don't, I don't have a calling to be a preacher. I don't want to be a preacher. And people have actually on the flip side, people who've escaped this thing and haven't yet deprogrammed. They'll hear me say the name of a book that's in the Bible and they say, wow, that's really good stuff, John. You ought to be a preacher. Well, they don't understand.

I would have to go to seminary to be trained. I'd have to understand the doctrines. It's more than just, hey, I want to do this thing. And suddenly I praise God, I'm a preacher. That's not how it works. You know, when you talk, when you describe the theological bag, I think the issue that the men were having is they don't realize that the bag is much bigger. Whenever you get an instant gratification as an instant end to becoming a preacher, you got this really small bag because you don't know theology. You know, you know exactly what the leader has been saying and you've heard

the leader say. And then you start repeating what the leader says. So in essence, rather than having a theological bag, you've got a broken record. That's just saying the same thing over and over and over again. Yeah, John, you're exactly right. The illustration with your son and changing breaks, you know, that's a perfect example where people we all often say they know just enough to be dangerous. And that's exactly, but you know, they don't realize what they don't know. And that's the problem. If you aren't professionally trained, you don't realize what you don't know. The little bit that you do know, which they learn from Dr. Freeman at that

time to them, seem to be so vast and seem to be consistent and it was not and can seem to be thorough and it was not. And there's no way you can convince a person of that until you're on the other side of a theological education. And then you look back and you realize, wow, I didn't know nearly as much as I thought that I knew. And I think that's the hallmark of education and any educated person, the more education you get, the less you see, let me rephrase that, the more education you get, the more you realize how little you know. Because if you just think there are

four things to know in the world and you know three of them, you're feeling pretty good. But when there's an almost infinite number of things to know and you start knowing them and then you find out, wow, this is almost infinite. What's there is to know, you know, I feel like a pauper when it comes to my knowledge of stuff. I just feel like a babe. There's no way those guys could have understood it. There's no way I understood it. When I was 21 years old, I was getting close to understanding it. I knew enough to know, hey, I need to be formally trained or I need to,

I need to be able to check and gauge the knowledge that I think that I have. And that's what put me on that path. And you know, I'm still on that path today. But one of the guys that has been corresponding with me gave me this quote. He said, I and my friends used to have a saying about everyone outside of previous ministry or real doctrinal education at faith assembly.

They were just writing on the back of Hobart's jacket. You know, I wasn't the only one that thought that. That was someone who was a member of the church. He said, me and my friends would sit around talking after we heard Hobart. Then we'd compare that with one of the Philan ministers.

And I mean, this isn't my quotation. This came from someone else who was a long time member of faith assembly. He said, you know, if they did not have previous ministry or doctrinal education in their background, they're just writing on half's coattails. And I think that's exactly what was going on. So anyway, let's work our way along here to what caused Bruce to leave. You know, I'm already seeing in Bruce a certain level of independence, which I think is really, really healthy. Bruce and Kathy had been childless during the whole decade of the 70s. And they explain

that on the basis of Kathy being a Christian young woman, having married Bruce, a heathen man. And it was God's chest. tiesman on their life. Well they finally had their first son born on February the 11th, Brent, 1980, and he died 36 hours later. The coroner said it was respiratory problems that calls Brent's death. He just lived for 36 hours. I'm sure that was heartbreaking. That was their first child, Kathy's first, Bruce's first. You've waited 10 years for the birth of this son, and he's born on February the 11th, and he died the next day. A lawsuit had been filed against

faith assembly, and Bruce was one of the defendants in it, and the trial was set for the summer of 1985, because people ended up dying and leaving. The lawsuit never went through, but I think that was weighing heavily on Bruce's mind, and I think at the end of the day, the legalisms became just too many and too extreme. Hobart had all of these pet ideas and pet doctrines. Some of them were new, some of them went back a while. He did not believe that a woman could wear pants. He was fairly consistent on that, as early as his tapes on biblical roles of husband and wife. That was a part

one, part two, which were requirement listening for membership at faith assembly. You needed to list into biblical roles of husband and wife, part one and part two, and he teaches against women wearing any kind of pants there. Well, Kathy and Bruce love to go skiing, and we've got a picture here, Bruce of them, or John of them, on the ski slopes out in Colorado. They love to go out there, they like to ski. Well, I think it's pretty hard to ski in a dress. And you know, I also, I remember over the years, Dr. Freeman, making poking fun at how ridiculous anybody, but especially

a woman would look in a ski suit going down the ski slope. He said they look like a bunny rabbit, all furred up, going down the slope. And I have thought about that afterwards that you're talking about your own daughter. I don't know that that's a kind and loving thing to do. You know, I think not only are you overstepping your boundaries as the pastor, but that's your daughter. That's your adult daughter. If you have a problem with her doing something, go to her and private. Don't say something from the pulpit that's embarrassing to her and that everyone knows you're referring

to anybody who's going to be skiing. Well, he went further than that. No Sodomite shoes, no prostitute purses, bomber jackets, white duct overall, plaid flannel shirts, no TVs, no doctors, no dentists. I mean, the list was just becoming unbearable and Bruce was beginning to have more and more problems with that.

And so Bruce and I did exchange some letters and he said there was a yelling match between him and Dr. Freeman and he told Dr. Freeman, you need to go through deliverance for some of your teachings which did not go over very well because Hobart had all of these later series he taught on deeper discernment and deliverance.

You know, it wasn't enough just to cast the demon out. Let's go back to your childhood and they were trying to find out what people were having to do. Believe it or not, it's crazy as this sounds.

Is he had become so opposed to medical science rather than being so in favor of God healing his people? Most of his message was a negative message. He was so angry with the pollution of drugs and the mutilation of surgery and the medical deities in the United States and most of his emphasis was against them and against that.

And because he had pretty much thrashed everything out already, you're always searching for a new angle. How can we keep this ministry and this message going? So in deeper deliverance and discernment, it came down to, well, what drugs did your parents give you when you were four years old?

We had people contacting their elderly parents to find out the names of drugs they were given as young children because the names of drugs represented demonic spirits that possibly gained entrance into your life when you were four, five, ten years old.

And I was hearing this stuff and that's why I was the outside critic, circling the camp, talking to Dr. Freeman. This is insanity going to seed here. Somebody needs to stop the madness, where is this ever going to stop?

Stop, thankfully, with his death and the breakup of the church. And that doesn't happen, John, with every call. Some calls the leader dies and everything just continues to go right along. But thankfully, you know, this was able to come to an end because the damage being done to people, the long term effects were just something really, really bad.

And so Bruce said, well, the final thing for him was any message that Hobart taught in titled Comfort for Trouble Times, was only taught two months before Hobart's death. He was taught in October of the 17th, in 1984.

They were going through terrific struggles. in that church because of the media and because of the district attorney and law enforcement.

And Hobart was preaching a two-part series from Romans 8. And let me read you this one quotation starting at the 35-minute and 13-second mark. Now God is concerned about His creation out there, friends, and I believe overcomers are going to get concerned more and more about it too and not cause them any suffering.

The Bible shows God is concerned and I believe emphasis His and I'm going to state my belief but we don't have laws and rules but they do have laws and rules. When He states His belief, that's what became the law and the rule. I'm going to state my belief but we don't have laws and rules that overcomers will get to the place where they will not want to kill anything because you don't need to. Now I'm not talking about going fishing for fish to eat, you see, you'll have to put it all together but I don't believe overcomers are going to have anything

to do with weapons of death, whether guns or bows and arrows or whatever. Now the time's too short for you to debate that, you better just go pray about it.

Wow. Bruce was a hunter as were a lot of other people in the church and wow, John.

That is a very troubling statement in so many different ways. You see, he's clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth. He didn't outlaw fishing but that's killing a fish if you do, right? He said, now I'm not talking about fishing, going fishing for fish to eat. What about going deer hunting to kill a deer to eat?

And then he says, we don't have rules here but I'm going to state my view. Well, I'm telling you 100% when Hobart stated his view that became the rule. One of the ministers in the meeting that I went to last month who was a complete devoted follower of Dr. Freeman's, who was a hunter told me himself. When Hobart came out on October 17, 1984 and preached this message, guess what this minister did? Did he agree with Hobart?

Freeman's statement? No, but guess what he did? He submitted to it. You know, and I would say, that's exactly what you don't want to do. When a cult leader comes out with some new view and you are going to show your loving submission to your pastor by submitting to it even when you don't agree with it. I mean, that's not a biblical teaching at all. To put on your church, hey, I'm outlawing hunting. And this is what it was called. This is when Hobart outlawed hunting in the church. You're no longer allowed to hunt. And a minister who

was there said he was going to lovingly obey it and put his weapons of destruction aside to show submission. Is that not submitted body and shepherd ship? That's the very thing that a cult leader wants you to do. They want you to submit to them. And that's the very time you stand up and say absolutely not. My wife has told me she won't let she won't go to certain churches with me. She said, I'm afraid to go to church with you. Because if you hear some guy making some crazy statements, she said, I'm afraid you'll stand up and say, I wouldn't because, you know, that's

really not polite to do. But I don't know. It depends on how bad it is. It depends on how dupe the people are. I just feel sorry for people, John, where these ministers stand up and just spout out all of this nonsense. And it's just allowed to go unchallenged. And that's the problem if you don't, I mean, silence is acceptance as far as I'm concerned in situations like this. It's just a troubling statement. He said the times too short for you to debate it. Hobart had very thin skin. You know, he could not handle people coming up there and debating something with him. He

had very thin skin. If you're going to be a minister, you got to have thick skin because you're going to have people disagreeing with you and wanting to express it. And you got to be able to handle that. And if you're in skin, you got to go find another job. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the Laterane, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brandham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I was talking with the friend of mine years

ago, we were talking about the Brandham cult, and you probably are aware, but Brandham made some claims that he had a magical sword. I mean, there was some really stupid stuff. And my buddy and I were talking one day and we said, you know, if he was behind the pulpit and he said, me and the boys were drinking a few beers one night and this happened, it really wouldn't have been that bad because it has context. It has the context that the people get the choice of whether or not they have to believe the ridiculous thing. But I've been looking at Hobart Freeman

and the similarities between the two and Hobart didn't have, I mean, he had some, but he didn't have as fantastic of claims as William Brannum did. But he also used the point, he used the pulpit for his opinion in the way that Brannum did. Brannum would preach his opinion and people would take it as doctrine. And can you blame it all on Hobart, Freeman?

I don't think so. Part of it comes to the group think. All of the people sitting there have been manipulated probably by Hobart to take everything that he said as though it were literal doctrine. And so when he voices his opinion, his opinion becomes a new rule.

But the funny part of that is it's circular because when Hobart sees that the people are doing this, well now he realizes that he has that control over them. So he brings a new opinion. And then he emphasizes the old one as though it was a past rule. And everybody who's not heating to the past rule, the rule in the past, they're all sinners. And so it's the cycle that it really takes both sides of it. It takes a cult leader who's just slightly mentally unstable. And it takes a group of people who have entered group think

to lift the leader up and keep him in authoritarian control. You're always exactly right. I don't even know why you need me on here. You're exactly right. But you are more generous than I am. I'm probably meaner than you are. But I try to smile when I'm being mean. So it doesn't come across too badly. And oh, yes, everything you just said is totally true. I know that after the fact wanted to, they tried to say John was, well, Hobart never taught that. The people misunderstood. My problem with that interpretation was it goes back to your circular thing. Hobart did understand.

He was a very intelligent person. And I think cult leaders, they enjoy being in control. I mean, it just is something about it. It gives them this high to feel this power that they have. And so he would say things in a non, this is not a doctrine, in a non doctrine way, knowing full well that just his opinion carried tremendous weight. And I don't, either he is either you have to say he.

who is totally unaware that people got rid of their peanut butter, Jeff and Peter Penn, or he was aware and he kind of thought, yeah, that's pretty cool. You know, look at the power I have.

I don't live my life that way. I think that's gross. I think that's inappropriate. I think it's gross and I think it's nasty for a public figure to stand up and give private opinion.

And look, we're talking about the cult of personality. If you went to your local standard first Baptist, first Methodist, first Pentecostal church, and some pastor says he does such and such, those people out there couldn't care less what he does.

They're gonna do what they wanna do. You know, it depends on the dynamics of the group. Because I've been to a lot of churches and the pastor will say that he likes to drive a yellow car.

Nobody even cares. Nobody goes and buys a yellow car. If you're in this context and you know you're in this context as a member and as a leader, that we are one of a kind here.

I am the messenger who has the entire message of faith and this is the group right here. That's when it becomes dangerous to even say anything about a personal opinion. I think me, because I'm a nobody, I can stand in a pulpit and say I have a personal opinion.

And people just laugh at it like, well, how stupid can you be to have that kind of opinion? You know, if it's just a personal opinion, that's the way you want people to respond.

Because you want them to have their own opinion. Am I talking about a doctrine in the Bible? I'm talking about like no hunting. That's nowhere in the Bible. They kill things from cover to cover in the Bible.

I'm talking about a private opinion. If I stand up and say, well, this is my opinion, I hope someone does think, well, you're nuts. You have it, you're not very smart if that's your opinion.

Because it tells me that they have their own mind and they're not afraid to use their own mind. And I hope I just got to the place where when you hear the things that he said, I mean, he was, he was, he was nuttier than an outhouse at a peanut convention with some of these things that he came up with.

Like where are you coming with, coming up with what kind of shoes and what kind of purses and what kind of pants and what kind of hats and jackets. And he wouldn't let people, he wouldn't let men use the word excited.

He said, that's a feminine term. Or I mean, he just picked his way through all of this. And once he said it, then it puts the people in such fear. You know, it put them in such bondage.

And then they would ask a man would accidentally use the word excited and say, oh, well, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that because I'm a man. I mean, you can't go through your life like that.

There are enough things in the Bible to keep, I'll tell you what you said. There's enough things in the Bible to keep us busy I mean, we don't obey the Bible perfectly, but that should be what we try to obey perfectly as God's Word.

These opinions of men, they're just like the chaff in the wind, just let them blow away, ignore them. And you can stop these cults if you have a group of people who will man up and not let the leader get away with it, right?

I mean, that's what my whole thrust, I think, in these podcasts have been, and I'm hope we're helping people in the future, John. We can't go and do the past, but we're trying to give people the courage.

That's what will stop these cults. You have to have people in that group who will man up. And I mean who will march up to the podium and say, this stops right now. You know, something's gone kind of viral on video that comes to mind of a minister.

We have all of these sexual assault cases. And it's not just the big ministers. It's a little 200 member churches as well. There is an a fabulous one online where the pastor has gone up before his church.

I don't know if you've seen this one, but it's just happened recently. And he is admitting to the church an extra marital affair 20 years ago. He's saying it's happened 20 years ago. You know, I want to confess my sins and extra marital affair.

I'm sorry. And you know, we just know the American church is so, and it's not just the American church. It's American culture, you know, Bill Clinton, anybody can do anything. And if you just kind of say, I'm sorry, everybody in America is pretty forgiving.

They'll forgive and forget and let you go on. And I think ministers have realized how true this is. All I've got to do is just say I'm sorry. There won't be any repercussions from this.

Well, guess what? During that live admission of an affair, the woman and her husband were there. They just took off. They marched right up there to the podium. They took over the podium and that woman said it was not an extra marital affair.

I was a 16 year old teenager that you raped on your office floor. That's what actually happened. Well, I'm thinking, thank God and her husband was with her. Thank God for people, for victims.

These are the victims of these places, for victims who will say, no, we're not going to let you get away with this kind of apology because you've skewed the story. This story is not accurate.

I'm the victim and I'm going to tell the story exactly the way that it happened. And had my voice, had I been able to do anything, John, back in the days, and I couldn't.

I was in nobody. I was a fringe person on the outside faith assembly. But these other ministers could have. affected some kind of change. But even Bruce, as much as Bruce wanted to do something, Bruce is like a long ranger.

That's why he's reaching out to me. He doesn't have anybody who's gonna be an ally there. Had other ministers been willing to listen and it wasn't difficult, we just read the quote, Hobart's outlawing hunting.

Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? He recruited a group of fishermen who killed fish by the hundreds and sold them in the marketplace. Are you kidding me? He just outlawed hunting and you're gonna let him get away with that.

And they did. Everybody just gave him a pass on everything and then adopted that into their own life. Well, Bruce wasn't gonna do it. So the no hunting thing, he said was a huge problem to him.

But then what I'd like for us if we can do John, if you can play the clip that I have given you from a message in his series at Hobart was doing called exhortations from Exodus.

He did a message entitled Believers Before the Burning Bush. And if you could just play that clip for us. And the media and the world and institutional religion is attempting to destroy this bush called faith assembly.

And they will fail as they have failed all through history. Amen, amen, amen.

And that's the Seth Lord. Amen. Hallelujah. Almost makes you want to shout. Amen. Hallelujah.

Now, not everyone was rejoicing. You might be surprised why. But really, you shouldn't be, should you?

God helped those who are trusting in themselves and man and not the Word of the Lord. God helped them. God helped them. God made their faith fail not.

If they have any true faith, may it not fail. Is my prayer in Jesus' name?

Sad but true. The end is so near. I'm going to speak so plain that you'll know I'm talking to you. When I'm talking to you.

Remember, there are only 300 in Gideon's Army. You better do all you can to make sure you're one of the 300. I'm confessing I'm one, but the 300 will be housewife over here. You never hear from.

She spends a lot of time and intercession in her closet. You can't figure out the ways in wisdom of God. He tries to warn you through this preacher if you won't heed, because of pride, of whatever reason, thus saith the Lord, I will remove thy lampstand from its place and pass thee by and choose another to stand in your stead.

And you shall say, what has happened? Why am I passed by? And the Lord does say, because you have not had an eye for my word and for my truth. You have been bound by your gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity. You are pride. And I shall pass you by except your repent, and heed this word of the Lord through my servant, saith the Lord. Amen, amen.

So the background to this is he's trying to compare faith assembly to the Israelites in Egypt and all the persecution they were experiencing at the hands of the Egyptians. So faith assembly is experiencing their persecution at the hands of the media and the local authorities.

And he's saying, we are just like the bush. And as they attempted to destroy Israel, so they are trying to destroy this bush called faith assembly. And the bush, by the way, wasn't Israel. The bush was actually God Almighty in the desert in Exodus 3. So the analogy even breaks down there. But after all of this praise and rejoicing over Hobart saying, we're going to stand strong. God's going to deliver us. Thus saith the Lord. Then he got real quiet. And you heard him say, well, not everyone is rejoicing. And guess who someone sitting back right with family members

who was not rejoicing was Bruce Kinsey. So Bruce has already had words with his father-in-law. He's already gone through this no hunting. The no hunting in October 17 was a preview. It was a message prior to this believers before the burning bush.

And I mean, John, when I read a, when I hear that quote and I've got it written down, I have it typed out myself from 40 something years ago. It's just, I mean, it breaks my heart.

And it's so troubling that a minister has no more, he has no more tact. He has no more professionalism than to stand in a public pulpit and prophesy to one of the members. I mean, who in the world do you think you are? You might think you realize you, but you're not.

You might think you're Paul, but you're not. You might think you're Moses, but you're not. You're just Hobart. You're just Chino. You're just Bruce. You're in nobody. I mean, we're nobody's compared to because they all want to say, well, in the Bible, they did, well, you're not in the Bible, friend. You're not Moses. So don't give me a Paul or Moses example. You're so far from them and I am so far from them. And so he wants to prophesy to his own son-in-law. That's not what men do, John. Men go behind closed doors, face to face man to man.

I've often accused Hobart and people have not liked this when I've done it, but I've often accused Hobart of being a coward. I believe he was a weakling and I believe he was a coward, but as long as you own a bully pulpit, you can get away with anything. If you had to sit down with a group of men, if you had a board of elders around you, if you had four seminary professors, experts in their field, Hobart going to tolerate anything like that? Absolutely not.

But as long as he's got a bully pulpit, he can force his way onto the people and he can force his way into their lives. So he is telling Bruce, thus say at the Lord, I'm going to remove your lampstand and you're going to say, what's happened? Why am I passed by? And the Lord does say it because you have not had an eye for my word and for my truth. What do you think is going through Bruce's mind as he's hearing this line? You have been bound by your gall and bitterness and bond of iniquity. You're pride and I shall pass you by except you repent and heed this word of the Lord

through my servant, sayeth the Lord. Wow. I mean that was it for Bruce. Bruce said, once my father doesn't even have the ability, the manhood, to let's keep all this between us, let's work this out. You're going to prophesy me right out of here. You know, I would have left too, but I would have left the screaming. You would have had to drag me out of there because I would have made a scene because it's wrong. It's just wrong to let someone get away with this and I just feel for Bruce in his own mind. He had been a minister. He had been second in command. He had had all

these great experiences at this church and now you're basically being driven out and you're being driven out because you object to personal legalisms that your father-in-law has introduced into the church. Not over some big doctrines. There are doctrinal things that I had huge problems with over Hobart Freeman.

But the doctrinal things aside, they were not allowed to wear Nike tennis shoes. Women could not have what they call prostitute purses. It's a purse that had a strap that went too long, that when you walked it shook, and then maybe your rear end shakes with your purse, and so you kind of look like a prostitute, you know?

So no Sodomite shoes. I mean, we laugh about it. I laughed about it then. We laugh about it now, but if it's no laughing matter for those poor people, you know, as soon as you hear Sodomite shoe, you go, what in the heck is that?

I didn't think I was a homosexual, maybe I am, but I didn't think I was. You look down to what kind of shoe am I wearing? What kind of purse do I have? Hobart had picked all that crazy stuff up in Time Magazine and Reader's Digest in Newsweek, where a certain group in New Orleans was wearing a certain kind of shoe.

And so it became identified with the homosexual population there, so what? I mean, who is the CEO of Crest Toothpaste, you know, where are you? Maybe he's a homosexual, so can I not buy Crest Toothpaste anymore?

You know, you would never be able to put an end to any of this legalism if we're trying to find out well, who identified with it or who is the major stockholder in the company that produces this product?

I mean, you just can't go through your life that way. And I've never been willing to, and Bruce wasn't willing to, hey, you're going to like this, John. I got a message from somebody this week that haven't been willing to talk with me yet because they're still praying about it because they don't know how bad of a person I really am.

They're trying to determine that, I think. But I got a message from him and he said, look, he said, the only way I would have known you, and this came about because of your podcast, John, is because your name popped up a friend of a friend.

You know, that's how Facebook works. And a lot of these people who are now friends of mine are X-Fate assembly people. And so he is a friend with them. And so you look on your Facebook feed and it says, hey, you have a mutual friend.

Do you want to become a friend of this person? And he said, the person's name was Chenot Ross. And he said, when I looked at that, he said, I had forgotten. But he said, I remember way back in the 80s, listening to a tape by a guy with the name Chenot.

And he said, I would never have remembered except the name is so unusual. When I saw your name, I thought, is this the same person? And he said, the tape, on the tape, whoever that person was named Chenot in the mid 1980s, was exposing, how did he say it?

I could find his, it was exposing the follies of faith assembly. And you had the whole audience laughing at what you were saying. And he said, that the tape was real troubling to me at the time. And then he said, was that you? And I said, I'm afraid that was probably me, yes, because I don't know anybody else that it could have been.

And so we've had some conversation and I hope he will at least be willing to talk to me. I said, I'm happy to talk with you and you can cut the conversation as short as you want to. He said, well, he said, I'm going to, I'm going to, he didn't know about the podcast. He said, I'm going to listen to some of these podcasts and I'm going to pray about it and I'll then I'll determine whether or not I'm going to be willing to talk with you. But no, my dear friend Bruce, he left the church.

Kathy continued to attend the services. So you know, it's deja vu. Way back to when she married Bruce, Bruce was unsafe. Kathy went to the church. Bruce had a dramatic conversion experience, becomes one of the lead ministers. They have a wonderful time together. Now Bruce has left the church. He doesn't attend anymore. Kathy still goes to the church two months later. Hobart Freeman is dead. You know, and I have one and Bruce went on to sell used cars. He had a car lot in Syracuse, Indiana. And one regret I do have, I guess we all have regrets in our life.

And I have a regret, a serious regret that I can't undo. And that said, I didn't stay in touch with Bruce. And I don't know why I don't have a good reason. I just have excuses. But you know, I was a young minister in my late 20s. I had small children. I was a pastor of a church. Life was busy. And so I just didn't. And I don't have any other reason why. But I do have a regret that I really wished I would have stayed in touch. This, this man who has, that I just referenced

whose contact in me said he went and talked to Bruce on occasion at the car lot. But I just picture, I try to picture Bruce selling cars when you had been in all the spotlight. And I mean, it was just this wonderful life that you had. You're married to the, to Kathy, to Kathy Freeman, Kenzie. You're a minister. They went on to have other children. They ended up having five other children. Their first one had died. Their third child also died. Kathy herself has gone through a whole lot of tragedy. You know, if Kathy Freeman, Kenzie ever hears this or friends of hers,

you know, I would say to her, I don't have any will ill will against Kathy against Bruce. I don't have any ill will against whole bar. You know, I, I just think that so many bad things happened and they were allowed to happen. And now we're 40 years later with no explanations, no apologies. Let's just sweep everything under the rug, people have to understand that is unacceptable. Too many people died, too many lives have been harmed and damaged. So I don't have any ill will.

I feel so sorry for Kathy. Her first child in 1980 died. Her father, Hobart Freeman, died four years later in 1984. Her mother, Ava, that everyone knows by her middle name June, June died in 1999. Her husband, Bruce, died of leukemia in 2008. And her third born son, died just a few years ago in 2016. Here's a woman who's lost two of her children, including her firstborn, who's lost both of her parents, who's lost her husband.

You know, I just, I have much love for Kathy and for all of the people who have gone through the suffering that they've gone through. But you know, my point is, John, what people so much of this was preventable. And if you don't stop the madness, it's going to continue. We've seen it continue after Hobart's death with the other ministers. We've seen it continue in William Brannum's fallout. We've seen it continue in Paul Cain. And I hop might bickle. We're continue.

And it doesn't have to be a part of some big movement. It can just be, you know, your normal local 300 member church, where you allow the leader to have absolute control over everybody.

And there's no explanations. There are no apologies. There's no accountability for fallout. We've got to stop the madness. And there are people like you.

You