Our Stories: Escape From NAR - With Rebecca Ludwig

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org and with me I have my very special guest, Rebecca Ludwig, former member of the NAR. Rebecca, it's good to have you. This is, I guess we've tried three times now to start the recording. We finally got it and we're talking beforehand. Your name is Ludwig which is one of the the best I guess drum drum kits and I have the second best I think over here

but anyway it's good to have you on and maybe if you could just start by telling everybody a little bit about yourself. Yes I just wanted to thank you for inviting me into your podcast because I've been watching you and it's really helped me and I'm sure that it's helping others get set free from NAR and all the guests that you've had to has been tremendous in my healing back to normal and I was raised in a fundamental church when I was a little grown and all I heard was rapture being left behind, being saved beyond a

shot of a doubt didn't know what shot of a doubt met but I knew that I didn't want to be in that position so I would run to the altar and I would get saved and I would get saved and I would get saved and I grew up with that and it was like I always had that fear of the rapture's taking place and I'm gonna be left behind and it didn't matter whether I knew Jesus it didn't know it just didn't matter it was just that beyond the shot of a doubt and didn't know what it

meant you know kind of thing well I moved down to South Carolina and I got away from that that bad stuff I thought and all I did was going from the frying pan into the fryer I got into involved with NAR and that was when things got really bad I thought I thought I was in heaven I was in this morning star ministries and it was the most glorious place I thought the river was until I found out that first you know if they ask you do you want to be on the prophetic teams do you want to be on the healing teams oh yes I will do

anything to serve my Jesus you know and then they they twist you and they they know they know about you they know everything that you you want to serve the Lord that's that's where I think that's where that these people get you and it's wanting so badly to serve and wanting because you're supposed to be a servant you know and and it's just so much control and so much manipulation and I think the hardest part was for me I'm making it short but coming back from Canada which was a really highly in our church with John and Carol are not there into the Pope and all that

stuff but I came back and well before I even before actually before I even came I would join her invited us to come to a special meeting and I thought wow I'm really special I'm going to come to a special meeting with Rick Joyner and he is inviting us to join the Knights of Malta oh wow um and because I had done Masonic renunciations with not myself but with everybody else I knew the Knights of Malta were free masonry and I did not want to get involved in free masonry so he just convinced everybody no this is good stuff they are good people they've done good things

all these years and you got to join us but if you really don't just go to pass to Robyn McMillan and tell him yes or no on Sunday morning and after I did that I'm telling you John it was hail on wheels I got back from Canada and what happened was Robyn came up to me and he said I've got to talk to you and I said well I had permission you had to have permission from him to go up there okay I had permission I had permission to go up there and I'm sorry I missed the meeting

you know he said oh no don't worry about it you you know you dress fine you you dress good so therefore you know you're not part of that and I said oh that's good and then he comes back to me and he says come to the special table they have a special table okay and so I came to the special table and he said you know Rebecca we've heard some bad things about you and and I I am there every time the doors open I have done everything that you can possibly do and he says um we're just gonna have to shut you down you're not allowed to pray over anyone

you're not allowed to prophesy over anyone and if you do then we will have security come and get you and they will take you off the premises this is after I have served them day in day out every time the doors were open and I am totally devastated he says well that's not all Monday morning you're gonna come to a meeting well I was head of the where I was the associate director of the Healing Rums of Charlotte. That's another one. That is noir, by the way.

And I had a doctor friend there at Morningstar Ministries and they told me that they would come while I was told by Robin, you can't come. You can't have anybody with you. So here I am and I'm all by myself and it was the tribunal. You are guilty. You are guilty. You're guilty of and it was like I'm guilty of a fall. I was guilty of being in front of the steps.

I was guilty of people screaming when I pray for them. It was just really stupid stuff and people falling down when I pray for them. I was guilty of people in the congregation going out in the people, the congregation and asking them to be on my healing to come over on our teams and it's like that's what I was guilty of. And you're not going to be able to minister for 90 days and I was never reinstated. So that's about and it goes even further deeper into something that is even darker.

You mentioned your childhood and it reminded me of, you know, we grew up in the Brandham cult, which was laterane and I called it the rapture stick. They would beat you with the rapture stick because they wanted that fear in your head and it was terrible. Oh yeah.

As a child, it wrecks your mind because am I saved? Am I going to make it? And they wanted you to have that question because if they could rip at your heart strings, then they could manipulate your head. And to think that that was carried forward into the NAR is just it's unbelievable for me.

But to think that it's tied to the Knights of Malta. I remember when you sent me that in email, I had seen it before, but I didn't realize how deep it was. And that's pretty significant. You know that the group has, you know, from its surface, it is a humanitarian thing. It's supposed to be good, but there's a lot of critical stuff that goes with that good. And the elitism, the political control, etc. It honestly, now that I take a step back and look at it, it is the perfect fit for the NAR, which is probably why they're supporting it. I think one of the things

for me though, John, is that after I said no, I would not join. That's when I started having the accusations. Then I later find out from a couple in the church that I'm going to the same thing happen to them. Then they, you know, it's kind of like persecution time, you know, even though you've been an excellent member, you've tied, you've done everything, you know, that you're supposed to do. And it's, it was, that's when it was, that's when it started.

That's odd. The, that sort of thing. I, grew up with it in our churches as well. Never for the nights of Malta, obviously, but if you did something that was at a place, it was as though Jesus did not have the power to save you.

They cut you off. If there was a person who, I mean, I've seen people even just simply ask questions and they get chastised for it, but they would do, like you said, they would bring the team of people to come and condemn you.

It's almost like witchcraft. They're placing curses on you. It was. Oh, definitely. Yeah, it's just, it's really, really awful. So what brought you into a morning star? What was the thing that attracted you to them?

Well, I had moved down south and I was by myself. And first I had gone to all nations with Mahesh Shabda. And then because they weren't going to be there, that was Christmas Day.

And I wanted to go to church. And I just found morning star. Well, this is it, you know, because in all nations, I wasn't allowed to pray for people. There was kind of like, he's part of the Shepherding movement with Derek Prince, you know.

And so therefore, you weren't allowed to pray for anyone. You weren't, and it was really weird, you know, for me. And I thought, well, why aren't we allowed to pray for people? You know, well, we just, that's our rules, you know?

So it's the rules and, you know, Christ even tells us to pray for the sick, right? He'll sick and raise the dead, cast out demons. And it's like, okay.

And then I went to morning star. I just, you know, well, first of all, I came to morning star to look for a home. And when I saw it on the board and everything, so I knew morning star existed up to that time I did not know.

But when I went there, it was just that. This is my home. It's attractive to people on the outside. And you don't know things like the Knights of Malta, whenever you're on the outside.

Well, no, because that's the secret part. He doesn't, you know, the thing about was, only certain people were invited to this. Not everyone in the congregation was invited. Yeah. We were the ones that were invited.

And it was like, in, you know, to, to have that happen to me. I was devastated, John. I mean, I thought, I mean, I was terrified on top of that. I mean, the security is going to come and get me.

After I've been in this church all this time, after I've been on healing teams, after I've been on prophetic teams, for these years. And you're going to kick me out with security. Well, it's shocking.

I mean, if you think of, in the movies, you think of these secret orders and whatnot. And it's, you know, the thriller movies, they have the victim who gets caught up. and it suddenly realizes, wait a minute, they're signing the up, not for the Knights of Malta, but some other secret thing like this.

And then the escape, it parallels what you're describing. And yet in the movies, you're thinking, oh, this is fiction, there's nothing like that in the real world. And suddenly you find out that this is in the NAR.

Right, but why would you have a Knights of Malta in a church to begin with? Right. And you saw those pictures that I sent you. I mean, you can't make that up. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's even on the website.

I was trying to, anytime somebody sends me something, I tried to verify it and I had heard it, but I had never actually proven it. So I was just doing a search and suddenly, I find out, wait a minute, it's right there on the website.

But what they're not advertising on the website is how deeply rooted it is, which is, why I wanted to have you on the show to talk about this. You know, that was General Boykin, by the way that was with him.

Wow. Yeah, he was good friends with him. And he knighted Bob, oh, by the way, he knighted Bob Jones and he knighted Dave Yarns by the one, the one that's being accused of all this mess that's going on at Morningstar right now with his sexual allegations and everything.

They all knew, they all knew, they knew what was going on with these children, but yet they did nothing. You know, it's wrong, like you said, to have it in a church. This is just, you know, even if you support that thing, then, you know, the place is not in the church.

The church is supposed to be about Jesus, not the Knights of Martha. Right. But to chastise somebody for disagreeing with the order, it makes you wonder how deep it runs within the leadership. Are they recruiting people into the church so that they can further recruit them into free masonry?

I don't know. All I know was, you know, when I talk to the people, the church I'm going to right now, they just basically, they were not basically, I don't know how long they were there because I really didn't want to go into it with them.

All I know is they just said that, the after, that they did not join, that, you know, they, they went to the special meeting and when they didn't join it, then it wasn't good for them and they finally left Morningstar.

That must have been rough. While you were there, you know, the sexual allegations that are raising currently, was there anything like this that was happening that you saw while you're in the church? I wasn't aware of that.

I know I, now I do want you to know that I was going to, I know that you've heard of Todd Bentley before. Oh, yeah. Okay, I went to his church and he was never there, you know, and he was never there, you know,

and it was called the Secret Place Church, but the secret was what he was doing. going behind the scenes, he had a green room where only certain people were allowed in there. They had dinners in there, they had people that only certain people were allowed in there.

I led intercession teams and we really didn't know what was going on. The students really never came to me, although I did and I will tell you this is, the honest to God truth, there were drinking parties that were going on with the students.

And I was invited to one of these drinking parties and I didn't know it was a drinking party, so you know what you're probably going to come and we just got to have fellowship and I thought, oh, how wonderful.

I just get to be with these students and this is going to be wonderful. And it was a drinking party and they were passing booze around, you know. And I said, yeah, I was at that time, I was a Tito alert.

I said, they were drunk. Even these people were drunk. And Todd Bentley, he would have these orgies. He would, I'm serious. He, and these are the allegations, you know. And he would, this is true also.

He would prostitute the students. You know, these weren't young students, by the way. These were older people. But when they would come, they couldn't afford to pay, you know, for their accommodations. He paid, I think it was $1,500 for them to come to a stupid idiotic, so-called school.

Anyways, I was in it, so I know it wasn't, you know, it was just pathetic. But when I found out what was going behind the scenes and the things that he was having, the men and the women do, and the white swapping parties and stuff like that, it was all, it was just unbelievable.

This is a church. And then when it all came down, you know, they're in Lakeland, and it's like, he then starts all over again. Guess what? Now he's told it all over again, and they want me to join again?

Oh no. You know, and it's just crazy, because when I was down there in Lakeland, I was on one of the healing teams, and he does have a gift of healing. I do, I will have to admit that, because I was healed of shingles.

I was, I had shingles for three months, and I'm telling you, he prayed for me, and I was to the point where I was bedridden. I had it so bad, that was from the crap from Morningstar, by the way.

I couldn't deal, it was horrendous, horrific, what I went through. And he got on the phone, and he said, shingles, be on. And I'm telling you, just, like that. There was no scars. There was nothing. So I know that he was not faking that gift of healing, but he needs a lot. He doesn't need to be in ministry. And a lot of these people don't need to be in ministry because they're not ministers. They're ministers of Satan. And it's so weird because it's like it feels like you're describing a bunch of high school kids who are going

out in the park behind the woods or whatever. But this is a church. This is where people are going to get saved. And Lakeland Revival. This is so deeply rooted in American Christianity now.

People go back and say this is one of the great revivals. But this is kind of the kind of thing that was happening with the leadership. And it just makes you realize if God is starting a movement, is he going to pick leaders like this? That's the question that I ask.

But see, when we were there at the church, he was never there. He only came for us to get when we started the school. And then after we finished the school, he really never showed up.

And when he did, it was all taught Bentley, taught Bentley all about me and me and me and me. It wasn't about Jesus. I don't think that there was any alter call when he was there.

Yeah, that's the other thing that I've noticed with all of these groups. They all share the same framework. If you can get the people to believe in you as the healer. And some of them, like you say, there are many, many people who claim that they've been healed by these guys. But they're getting you to believe in them. And they're not telling you any of the dirty stuff that most of these guys are scoundrels. Not all, but there are a lot of them. And they're not telling you this.

But the problem is the people associate the God with the human who is issuing the healing. And they associate the healing with salvation. And so it makes it harder to leave, right? Did you feel that when you left the church? Was it hard? Was it difficult for you?

When I left Morningstar, when I left different churches, when I left different or churches, you know, I would literally just go to the, because I felt Holy Spirit leading me out, I would go to the leadership and they would just bless me. But when, when I found tell later, that blessing turned into a curse because they were speaking very badly about me. And it was my fault that that his secret place church had collapsed. Because I knew that if I left, it was going to bust anyways. And I was staying there for mostly for that purpose. But then when I

was invited to another Naur church, which I didn't think that a Spanish church would be Naur, but I didn't know anything about Naur at that time, the abuse was worse. then it was even where I was, you know, and it doesn't stop, you know, in these, these you're not safe. I mean, I had five tribunals when I was in that, in the church of the power of God there in Charlotte.

Wow. It's hard to believe. And I get email. In fact, I just got an email today. People contacting me, asking me, is my church in R? Is this church in R? And it's so insidious because there's no real label. Are you in an AR church, right? And there are a few good books that describe how the apostolic networks work. And the problem that I see is you have churches that resemble somewhat a healthy church that are in the apostolic network of the NAR. And then you've got other unhealthy churches that are influencing them. And so

there's this elaborate network. And so you could be in one that's in the network and not realize it. And it may even be healthy when you join, but then shift over time into this insidious thing that's happening. And now that you bring nights of malty and you start to wonder, well, are they signing recruits up? Is this, you know, the Brannum church, whenever it was planted, they were apparently signing people up into the clan because the second and command was leading it. So that has been around for decades. And I did a study. I kind of avoided the free masonry because in my research, because there is a lot of things

that can never be proven. And so I just kind of set it off to the side. But if you look back at Brannum and his many of his affiliates and his family, he even mentions they were all free masons. And you know, whenever you make that connection, you start to scratch your head and think, you know, there's, there's a pattern. I guess that's the best way to say it. You can't prove any of it because it's secret organization. But there's a pattern.

Why is the pattern existing in a church? Exactly. And the thing that it is is that you know about in California, you've got Bill Johnson. And he was coming to our church and he was talking about going to William Brannum's grave. You called it grave sucking or something like that. Yeah. Grave soaking. Soking, sucking. You know, whatever it was. And so when I was in, when I was in Jeffersonville with our friends, we heard about this and so we said, we're just going to go there and we're going to see his, his grave. Well, he's got a great big tombstone

with the pyramid on it. There you got, you know, your frame and we laid on his grave. You know, I didn't know what we were doing, but we were just doing what Bill Johnson told us to do.

It was stupid. The only thing we did was get wet because it was raining out here. Yeah. But it was stupid. You know, you listen to these stupid gnar people. And I mean, they are just nuttier than a fruit cake.

But you know, because you're so trained that anybody that goes up on that stage, they are speaking for God, you know, everything. And it's like, oh, yeah, I've often made the joke because so I live in Jeffersonville where that pyramid is.

And I see people pray to it all the time. I'll come to read stuff. It's so odd, man. But I live right across the river from where Colonel Sanders was buried. And I make the joke often.

You don't find me going to his tomb so that I can make better fried chicken. But it's crazy stupid. But if you think about it from a religious standpoint, I've actually never talked about this.

But just dissecting it critically from, forget all of the stupid stuff. You know, the stupid thoughts about it. But just think from a religious standpoint, they're trying to soak the spirit, the alleged power from the dead bones that are in this thing.

The mantle. Yeah, the mantle. But instead of looking to God for... Yes. Even the mantle is a little bit nonsense. But instead of looking to God for whatever it is that they're looking for, they're looking for to the dead bones, which is the pure essence of spiritualism.

It's nothing more. And in the Bible, in the Old Testament, they stoned people for this kind of thing. Right. I think one of the things that Bill Johnson talked about was when Elijah died.

They threw him in the cave. And those marauders came in there. And they threw him when they're on. And they hit his bones. And then they became back to life again. And so that's what he also says.

So it's like, yeah, that's it. That's really. You know, they can twist. I'm telling you, John, they will twist anything. And if you don't know the Bible and you don't really study the Bible, I mean, they can read the Bible.

This is one thing that they did in the fundamental churches. They would read the Bible, but it's not what they said. And they said, this is what it says. But it really wasn't what it said.

No. And they pick and choose, right? They like to take the Old Testament because of the mystique, but you'd never find them with, leading a donkey around, trying to make a donkey talk. They're not gonna choose that passage, but I can get people to, people aren't going to try to make donkey speak, but you can make them lay on graves and pretend that you're getting the power.

And especially when you've got people going, ooh, the power, while they do it. So. It's the whole thing is just so silly, but it it is in its essence. It's manipulation. They're manipulating people by doing this Definitely Definitely and then you don't know it because you're so Just honestly you are programmed from the time you step in there and they watch you like a hawk They pay attention to everything you do everything everything. I did You know, it was like I was in trouble all the time. I didn't want to do you know They would basically what they would say from the pulpit was not what was really happening down below and I would I'm one that

I just pointed that out to them They don't like that. That's in subordination You know, you have to obey them. They are your master You know, and that's really how it is Yeah, you know, and but you but but they use this is how they manipulate you You're disobeying God because you know in Romans it says that you are to obey your leaders Okay, whoa. Okay, so we're the leader you obey us. You are being subordinate to not just us, but God And that's like a knife in a heart of a person who really wants to serve Lord and loves him

Yeah, and they know that Yeah, they do it's because they've taken the biblical model of Church leadership and flipped it upside down Instead of the instead of the humble pastors and Evangelists and apostles trying to create new Apostles evangelists and teachers, etc They want to create a hierarchy where and like Bramham's pyramid where they're at the top Yes, and everyone below them is subordinate and It's the reverse they should be at the bottom and they should be uplifting everybody to empower them and They want all the power is the problem Right, but then when we got when I got involved with the healing rooms that was a

Different story altogether. That's also not this is how I found out about William Bramham in all of Gods so-called Gods I should I say Satan's generals as I've listened to everyone of your podcasts and find out who they really are and who John She liked us. I just listened to his the other day. I thought dear God in heaven You know we were taught that he was this godly man and that you know he put bubonic plague on his hand and It died right there on his hand, you know, he was so wonderful and you've just got to be just like him

And it's just like oh my god, and then you have to do you have to pray for people the way we tell you if you say you know If we tell you you're gonna do this you're gonna do that and it's like I was the associate director and I said no, I said it Holy Spirit tells me to lay hands on their shoulders I'm going to listen to Holy Spirit. Well, after nine years, I was told I was in subordinate. I was kicked out nine years of serving. And it was like, and then to find out, to find out all this information that you and Charles are

talking about is just so eye-opening. I just pray to God that people will have a heart to be able to have a teachable heart and say, what I've been taught is wrong. I have people who, if I told them these things, I wouldn't have them for a friend. They would be friend me after being friends for years because they used to go to Morningstar too. And they listened to pink hair lady, you know, your cat curse, nonsense, and jello in heaven and Santa Claus and Santa, oh, Jesus, all the stuff. And it's like, everyone is so deceived by these people who call

them self-profits. But they're really not. They're pathetic. They're not prophetic. Yeah. You know, back to the God's general thing. It's really surprising to me because they could have done the same thing. It is manipulation when they use the God's general's term. It's the same exact thing as the grave soaking. You're pointing to a human instead of pointing to God. But they could have actually picked good people and done the same type of manipulation because doing the eras that they're talking about, there were some really good Christian men and women. Yes. Why did they pick only the

scoundrels? That's the part that just baffles me. Why on earth did they choose the bad guys? Right. I find it, you know, really difficult for me. Okay. I walk in the prophetic. I walk in deep prophetic ministry. And I've seen the blind in in in Colombia, really healed. I've seen a lady get out of a wheelchair at Morningstar. That was the worst thing that could happen. You got, you know, on your team, you got a person on a wheelchair. But I saw her. She'd been in a wheelchair for 10 years. And she walked right around Morningstar after we prayed for her.

You know, and I've seen, I've seen people healed of cancer. So there are people that do have gifts, John. God chooses our gifts, our gifts and callings are without repentance, right? But the thing of it is these scoundrels don't even have any gifts. And I'm thinking, why aren't these people? Why aren't they going to these other people? You know, at Morningstar, why aren't they going over there? And why are they coming in my lane?

You know, why are they coming into our group? Because they want to heal. And I would always say to people when they were healed, I would always say this, John, I'm not your healer. God is. I always let them know that because that was that I think in the healing ministry was the worst thing.

It's all about me. I did it. I did it. You know, Todd would stand up there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did it. I did it and all these people and oh, and that's nonsense.

Even with William Prandt and all these dog-on-stupid so-called generals, they never did no one ever healed anyone but Jesus. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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You know, I've often wondered, there are numerous reports and you can go in many archives and you can read them. Of people who attended these kind of things and they got healed, God healed them.

The people who are claiming that they're healed. Unfortunately, many of them, there's no record to prove what they say, but they truly believe they are. And many of them are devout Christian people who are there looking to God for their healing, not looking to the man on the platform, but the man on the platform are trying to manipulate the people into believing that they have the power to connect them to God for the healing.

Exactly. And so the question that I have about the whole thing is, are the men simply, like you mentioned Todd Bentley had the power of healing, is that the case or did he just, is he misusing Christian people who are looking to God for their healing, God heals them, but he's just claiming the, claiming that he has the power because he can get Christian people in the room.

Well, his main thing and his main focus was money, millions, money, you know, and that's what they all did. You know, they were all top manipulators about money. And that's the sad part because I really do. And I'll bring up Benny Hinn, you know, he's not, I mean, we know that.

But I went to a Benny Hinn who say, John, I had fibromyalgia, I was close to having to be in a wheelchair. I was close to, well, it should say, my prognosis was, I was going to be, I was going to have a cane, then I was going to go into wheelchair, and then it was going to get worse, okay?

And I went to a banyan crusade, and this was right after 9-11. And everyone told me, don't go to that crusade, you're going to get killed in the law, in the nonsense of 9-11, nonsense. And so, I mean, it wasn't nonsense, it was an inside job, we all know that, but the thing of it was, I went to that crusade, and I know this is going to sound strange, but we were singing how great that art. I mean, the place was packed, and then he even had people on the other, he had people in another building. There was that many people, because that was

after 9-11, everyone thought we're all going to die, you know, kind of thing. And I was up there singing, how great that art. And I was just seeing it at the top of my lungs. I was should have been in the handicap place, because they had me go all the way to the top, instead of the handicap place, there wasn't any place to go. So, we went all the way to the very top, and I'm seeing it at the top of my lungs, and I swear to God, and angel knocked me in my seat, and I just, I couldn't move,

you know, I was just overcome. I really was, and I was just singing to the Lord, and I was just praising God. You know, it wasn't about bending in, although he had just come up on the stage, and it was like, I was healed of fibromyalgia right there, and then, and then they had the people come down the line, you know, they would come, and I was shaking like crazy when they came and got me, the power of God was all over me. And then they were going to take me up on the stage, but a great big influx from the other building came in, and I never got to go up. And I thank God

for that every day, because I never would want to thank Benny Hinn for healing me. And that's what happens in these crusades. These people are healed in their seats, but they go up and they give testimony, and then Benny Hinn's so-called knocks him on the ground or whatever, and then he says, I healed them. And then millions of dollars go into his ministry. Yeah, it's so ridiculous.

And then the people that are caught up in the NAR, because people are healed in those buildings, yes, you know, they, they blame the man, they think that the man has the power to do this. And exactly. It's like the model that I talked about of the church leadership. It's flipped upside down. They're not looking, they shouldn't be looking to the man for healing in the first place.

So I always ask the bigger question, well, if people are really looking to God for the healing, why do they go to these things in the first place? And that, I can't answer that. Why do people do it?

I think I went because an acquaintance of mine asked me to go Now, my mother and I always watched Binyin, you know, she had dementia and everything and she loved Binyin so we'd watch him and I got a chance to go see this Binyin, you know, and everything, so he's bigger than, you know, he's bigger than life and everything, but when he comes on the stage, he's just a mere man, you know?

But people think of me, they, like William Brannum, they'd look at them and these people, brick join or all of these people, we look at them like they're gods, you know, and that's idolatry actually.

Yeah, I like watching Binyin too, but I like watching the version where he's got a lightsaber and the people are falling over from the Star Wars lightsaber, but it's, the whole thing is just so odd to me.

I grew up in a religion that was built around the healing revival. Yes. The leader was dead and gone and so we never had this sort of thing and we looked at all of these people like Binyin as frauds, as charlatans, which they are, but we didn't realize that we were one of the primary frauds, the primary charlatans, you know?

Yes, I hear you. I do, I understand that. And it's just like, as I look back now, it's, I guess I'm just having a hard time, you know, getting out of this, you know, and every time I look at a different one, all the different podcasts that you have, I just have a really hard time because it's so intense, you know, and then I, you know, I'm listening to, you know, all these different preachers and everything and I've, you know, I've been giving to their ministry Greg Locke, now he's not.

And then I, you know, and then I do, you know, Troy Brewer and then he's not. And then it's just like, my gosh, you know, and so when I, yes, I went to my pastor and I, I talked to him, I said, are you normal?

I just had to tell him. It's like, no, he said, we don't have anything to do with them, but he said, we do have people in our church that were, you know, hurt at Morningstar from that, you know, kind of thing.

And so it's just so, people, they have no idea what they're involved in. You have no idea that these people have plans, but, you know, they say they've got this great, big wealth transfer, you know, you got plans while now.

I saw them all at Morningstar. They were all liars and we looked at them like, they was just, I mean, they got words from the Lord. They did not. Just like, you know, you were talking in Charles talk about all these people got this from this person and this person way back here and that's like, that's where Lance Walnut got his seven mountain stupidness, you know.

And it's like, all the stuff is just crazy. It is. And again, the generals, they chose, they're not the good guys. And there were such good Christian men that they could have adopted. Yes.

Yes. And that's a point I want to make too. So in the good Christian men, not the bad guys, some of those may have some doctrines that are slightly off. But the difference is they're openly admitting an error if they find it, and they correct it.

And so there's this transparency that exists among the good guys. And so if they were to learn from a trail of good Christian men as the theology is evolving, it's evolving in a healthy way because they're transparent about it.

But instead, they chose these horrific, some of them criminals, some of them, just complete scoundrels. John, do you like? Yeah. And it gets pretty bad. You've got child predators. Anyway, they choose the bad guys, and their theology, because it's not transparent, it never evolves.

So it only actually gets worse. And so from these bad guys that they've chosen, these so-called gods generals, you have a theology that gets worse and worse and worse with every iteration. And that's what they built as their whole platform.

Exactly. And I feel like, you know, you have read right now at Morningstar who left Morningstar and Rick Joyner had him for the CEO and he was gonna be the head prophet there at Morningstar.

And he would do the same thing. He would go out in the congregation and find out about people, you know, and he would get this information about them. And he'd go on Facebook, or he'd go on all these social medias.

And by God, if he didn't do the William Brannum thing, and he would know all about them, because he did his research so he could say, well, you know, such and such, you over here with the blue shirt on, you know, and this and this and this, and you live here, it's like, oh, I don't know if he didn't have that information right there on his bone.

I mean, he was more sophisticated with William Brannum, but that's what these people were doing. You know, and it's what the really sad thing but why is I couldn't understand that because the Lord never gave me people's addresses.

They, you know, it doesn't impress me that somebody knows about my address. It doesn't, you know, it was like, I went to church of the power of God. You know, that was a, and I didn't know it at the time was in our church.

It seems like the Bible, one, see three churches are the lower churches. And I, that was the church that I thought. was going to be the church and I was invited to go to Columbia, South America, but before I went there, I had a tribunal, and it lasted until 12 o'clock in the morning. Accusations, accusations, I mean, there were people in this room, I was invited to go, you know, I was in this apostles' home, I mean, it was a great big mansion, and I was invited to go to Columbia with her. I was so excited, you know, this was the first, I mean, I've been in Brazil,

but I had never been in, you know, places where she was at in Columbia, and Bogota, and I was also going to be a speaker there. So I was invited, and even when I was there, I was falsely accused so many times, and I had so many tribunals, but the worst one, John, was when I was told to come to a tribunal, and this one lady who called her in a cell phone, an apostle, she said, the Holy Spirit told her to get me, this is serious, get naked, put me in a shower, this is after,

this was right after I had talked in the conference, get me naked and put me in the shower, poor salt on me, poor sugar on me, and then after I was done, then they put my clothes back on me, and then the men came in the room, poured oil on me, and put oil on my head, put oil on my arms, on my legs, and that's what they did to me after the tribunal. That's awful. I didn't know what to do, John, I told the apostle, I said, this isn't God, God would not do this. Oh no, Rebecca,

I just know that's God. I know that is. And then I had one thing right after another, after another, and then when I prophesied about in during one of the conferences, I think, or either I was a speaker there at the church, I prophesied that President Trump was going to get reelected, which he did, and people can argue about that until, you know, cows come home, but she said, I'm going to, you're going to go, basically she wanted me to join the apology trail, which meant that I had to apologize to the congregation and tell them that I was wrong,

and I did not hear from God, and I would not do it. She said, okay, then you're going to sit down, you're not going to do anything. You can put your money in the offering, they always want your money, right? But your money in the offering, but you're not going to be able to talk, you're not going to be able to prophesy, you're not going to be able to pray for the sick. I mean, not even, I mean, I was just, I was just shut down. That's terrible. But five tribunals, I thought the morning start tribunal was a hoot. So hard to believe that in a church, you could even possibly

experience something like this. Yeah, even the idea of the tribunal, it's not something that you find in the Bible of how church discipline. And the things that you're describing, it wouldn't even merit church discipline in the first place. So it's just unbelievable that this happened. So if you could give advice to people who are trapped in the NAR, being able to recognize that you're in the NAR in the first place, that's the most difficult part. But then how to overcome and how to escape it. What advice would you give them? Escaping has been the hardest part because, you know, just like you have

experienced your friends, your family are involved with the NAR. But it is willing to just say, I have to follow the Lord. I cannot follow these idols. I cannot do this anymore. I'm walking away from fear. I'm walking away from manipulation. I'm walking away from intimidation. And that's where if, you know, when people are in these churches, they are going to know that, you know, just as I'm talking, when you feel intimidation, when, if it's, you know, if it, if it looks like Jesus, acts like Jesus, then it's Jesus. But this wasn't. And see, that's what you see in these churches.

And if you have to be manipulated or you have to be controlled, then that means you are in a NAR situation where you need to get out. It was getting out and just saying, I'm not going to, you know, I mean, I'm supporting these dog on ministries, you know, and everything. Because I really felt like, you know, they were doing the work of the Lord. But I had to just say, I can't do this anymore. I cannot support your ministry. I cannot. Even though you, you know, you rescue people and children, you know, and everything, I can't be involved with you anymore.

I cannot let you manipulate me. You know, it's kind of like, I'm a, they manipulate you. And it's like they just tell you how they're, you know, like Greg Locke, his roof got torn off and, you know, they had a tent or something. And so he's begging people for money. And, and then, you know, I'm, my heart, you know, goes out and I send money. And later I find out that, oh, he went to Israel, and he went to the wall, or not the wall, but right in the cemetery where Jesus is supposed to come through the Eastern Gate, he went in there, which is illegal. And he knocked out some of the

rocks of that place. And he brought them back to the United States. And now he has this, the museum of his that has artifacts in them. very, very, very expensive and relics that I'm thinking, but you were just begging for money.

What, you know, that's just not, and so to me, I think when people start opening up their minds and they start seeing that what they're being told is not true, they're being, you know, it's like they're being lied to. And when I saw that, it's like, wait a minute.

You just got through begging for money last week and now you're saying that you're, you've got this museum with all of these relics and, and very expensive and some, you know, blah, blah, blah, and a museum and a church since when? You know, so it's like, I really feel that it's so important to, no matter what, you know, you've got to go by not your conscience and you've got to not go by your emotions, but you've got to go by what Holy Spirit is saying to you.

You know, who in the sense that's free? He is free indeed. But if you continue in my word, and that's where these churches don't do the word. They don't have Bibles. They have this great big thing on the screen and they don't do, you know, whole scripture. They just do tiny little this and tiny little that and this is how I prove this and this is how I can manipulate that.

And when they do things like that, you got to, you got to realize that you're being manipulated. You've got to get out before it's too late where you can't get out, you know, because there's just so much, so many connections and they try to pull you back in. They really do.

And so it's for me to be able to just say, Lord, you know, I want you more than anything in the world. I want to obey you, not them, because that's what they want. They want you to obey them.

And if you don't, you're in subordinate. That's a lie. It's almost like they have a witch's brew of scripture. They just picked this piece here and picked this other piece. That's one of the things that was surprising to me is I knew the Bible, but I had that frame of reference of the witch's brew frame of reference of the Bible and it turned it into a different version. It wasn't even the same book, you know. No, it's not. So after, after leaving and after getting out of this, how, how would you describe the difference in your life now that you're no

longer under all of that nonsense? I feel more free. You know, I don't have that.

I know what sounds weird, but still that rapture stuff is still, you know, in there and I'm still trying to get that garbage out. But all of the nonsense and everything and being free to be able to worship being able to do what God's called me to do in ministry, I just, my heart is for that people would be able to see that what has happened to them, you know, they can lead other people out, you know, that's what my heart is, is, you know, and I do that, you know, even a church, I'll be talking and people look at me because I,

Derek Prince, I want you to do that, by the way, I want you to do that podcast on Derek Prince, the leader of Derek Prince Ministries in Charlotte was at our church on Sunday, and he was talking about all God's general, all these God's generals, and how wonderful it was, and then this lady that was standing there next to me, who I didn't know she then starts talking about, well, what's his name, the one that did God's generals, Robert William and Robert, yeah, I told him, I said, I met him, I thought he was so awesome.

He even gave me a DVD of his mother, he said she was one of God's generals, and she should have been in that. Well, it's so hard to believe, I mean, they make the stuff up, and the funny part is that they think that they can do this and call it Christianity, and you know, if this were anything else, if they were doing some sort of a road show, and they tell people, hey, my mother's a general, it's okay if they do that, but they're doing it in church, and they're kind of like Christianity, which is just so, it's so unnecessary.

I was talking about least church, and I was basically the camera person at that time, and he came up to me, and he said, I've got to give this to you, the Lord told me to give this to you, you know, you were special on, I want to give this to you personally.

I threw away all of my DVDs, I threw away all my books, I threw everything away, that had anything to do with, I mean, my library went from probably about 300 books to maybe about 30 books.

Is that bad? CDs, CDs, DVDs, I didn't give them away, I didn't, you know, I was thinking, well, you know, the goodwill is close by, or something like that, I could get that and they could sell it.

I don't want anyone to have it. Yeah. I don't want them to be trapped. Yeah, I don't blame you. Well, I'm so glad you did this with me today. There's so much that you have in here.

In fact, I've been taking notes that you've been talking because there are other research videos I'm going to have to spin off because of this. But the things that you're bringing up, I'm sure a lot of people are aware that this exists, and to me, having...

been in those churches is just it's really foreign to me but the the fact that there's so many churches that take take this fantasy world and they call it Christianity is just unbelievable but thank you for doing this. Thank you so much for inviting me. Well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at William-Branham.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon Audible.