Faith Assembly: The Hidden Costs of Cult Loyalty and Legalism -With Chino Ross

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chen O'Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding of scripture and truth by Chen O'D Ross YouTube channel.

Chen O'Ross, it's good to be back, as you can tell my allergies are making my voice a little horse today. I'm going to try to get through this, but last week we were talking about the rules, and I was just shocked to hear how much of a continuation it was between the faith assembly cult and the Branhamism, and I'm learning similar things from other cults that are out there.

They're not all, you know, some of the newer cults have a more freeing spin on their rules, but they all have rules to some extent. It's a rules-based foundation of a religion, but I was curious, as you were talking about the rules with Hobart Freeman, how much he matched Branham, and even some of the ways in which you said it were the ways that Branham would have said it.

That is surprising to me as well, John, and I think as we go along in our conversation today, we're probably going to find a lot more of these. I did notice, you know, you and I have, I don't know, three or four or five podcasts that we've already, or interviews we've already done.

I guess they're in your oven baking right now until they're ready, and then you'll serve them on YouTube, but I noticed that the one you released last week was our part one of two parts with Bruce Kinsey, and as I said back then, when we did the interview, you know, that was several months ago, and I'm sitting watching this one last week, and to this day, I still have regrets that I did not stay in touch with Bruce.

I was a young man, a young minister, a young father, a young husband, I was young in every way, and that's my only excuse for not staying in touch with him, but I wish that I had been able just to stay in touch with him because you were able to play on that one.

The actual clip during a message where Hobart said, if we hadn't claimed these people's salvation, they wouldn't be saved, and there's one sitting right there, and I just think of all of the enthusiasm and Bruce's life and heart and then just move the clock, the hands on the clock forward by 10 years and everything has come undone, everything's just totally unravel and Bruce ends up being out of the church and it's interesting that Kathy stayed in the church, his wife and Bruce stayed out and that's like it was back before Bruce was saved, Bruce was out of the church, Kathy was in and you go 10 years

with Bruce being number two minister and Bruce is out in Kathy's in and it's interesting because I know a lot of people who know a lot of people Kathy's history since that day is that she even when Faith assembly finally dissolved, you know, it went soft and we'll talk about that later, it went soft because it went after Kansas City, it definitely abandoned Hobart's teachings and went in a whole different direction and so a lot of the Freemanites, you know, the hardcore ones who wanted to tow the line, they had to start their own little groups and churches and Kathy was, she was a part of Tim Neely's church

for a while because and Tim is no longer teaching from what I understand because of health issues that he has had, she was a part of other groups and so forth but, you know, in the last year I had been able to get a hold of Curtis who is their oldest living child, they lost her firstborn Brent who died after birth 36 hours after birth of some respiratory issues and then we go all of these years and Bruce ends up dying and here by the way, John is a picture of his tombstone and I'm thankful that they put on that Sergeant Bruce Kinsey, you

know, all of the Sergeant Marine military stuff was brushed under the rug, that wasn't allowed at Faith assembly to be a part of the military was something pretty terrible because as we're going to get into here in a few minutes you're, you know, you're serving a government that's under Satan's control and not under God's control so I thought it was good that at least on his tombstone they did have Sergeant Bruce Kinsey so I was able to get a hold of Curtis and talk to him it was actually last fall fall of 2023 and if anybody doubts I was able to actually talk

to Curtis just find out who his favorite NFL football team is it's a Chicago Bears and the way I would know that is we were talking on a Sunday afternoon and Curtis, you know, evidently looked at his watch and said oh we've talked long enough I gotta go the Bears are getting ready to kick off here on TV So, yeah, I did talk to Curtis, but the thing is, I've had a couple of conversations.

We traded some texts, and this is Bruce and Kathy's oldest child. Then he went dark on me, and I just think it's because you're kind of meddling in family affairs. I mean, after all, Hobart Freeman was his grandfather.

He was born two years before Hobart died, and two years before his dad left the church. So he doesn't have any memory of that himself, but of course, he knows all these stories. But what I would want to say to Curtis, by the way, if he ever hears this or anyone knows Curtis, the Chicago Bears were and are his favorite football team.

Well, one of the most legendary figures in Chicago Bears football history was their famous defensive coordinator, Buddy Ryan. And so Buddy Ryan was a friend of mine. Here I have a picture of Buddy standing beside my truck.

We're getting ready to go on a fishing trip. You know, John, I'm also a charter boat captain. I'm a licensed professional fishing guide. So first of all, I did cabinets for Buddy in his home.

And once I did cabinets in his kitchen, Buddy fell and broke his back. And so we had to do things in the bathroom with regard to his vanities to make things accessible for him.

So then I went back and did everything in his bathroom for his health sake. And then he, you know, in conversation, he says, Oh, you're a fishing guide. He said, Now, I really like you a lot.

Then you're going to take me fishing. And Buddy as an old man was not the buddy that you see running up and down the sidelines, chewing everybody's ear out. I mean, he was a meek and gentle old guy.

We actually had a super bowl party, a super bowl party at our house. And here is a picture of Buddy and I and our kitchen at our super bowl party at our house. He is the only defensive coordinator ever to be carried off the field after winning the super bowl by his players.

That's what people thought about Buddy Ryan. So I'm just saying, Hey, Curtis, if you're out there, you know, I knew the bear of all bears, Buddy Ryan. So hey, let's, let's have some more conversations.

But John, where we were, I felt that Dr. Freeman was beginning to slip mentally toward the end of his life. He had put himself in solitary confinement, you know, he really believed his own propaganda.

And nobody was going to challenge him. He didn't challenge himself. Nobody would challenge him. And he just had all of these additions to scripture almost, it kind of reminds me of what you see in the Gospels where Jesus talked about what the scribes and Pharisees had Old Testament law. They had taken the writings of Moses, and then they had added all these things to it. So they were to the point where, as Jesus said, they were willing to strain out a nat, but swallow a camel. They wanted to tie the smallest resources out of their

garden, but they wanted to omit the weightier matters of the law. Jesus said, like judgment, mercy and faith. So here's another one that Hobart hammered away on when it came to appropriate Christian professions. What could you do as a man? How could you earn a living? The young people were given so many warnings about watching out for worldly and evil career paths. They were warned against that. They were warned against higher education, because if you go to post-secondary education, you're going to be talked out of your faith. It really was so strict on all the people.

So here's just a partial list of things you obviously couldn't be involved in. You couldn't be involved in insurance. Couldn't sell insurance of any kind, and that covers a whole lot of things, because they didn't believe in insurance. Couldn't practice law. Christians don't sue people.

Christians don't go to the law. Christians don't deal with the authorities. Journalism, obviously, theater, medicine, psychology, psychiatry. I mean, what's left? Besides drywall and painting, what's left? You probably are down to your day laborer, your manual trades, diesel mechanic.

That would be fine. Carpenter. That would be fine. Farmer. That would be fine. But you know, anything that required an education, you know, post-secondary education and anything that got into any in his mind, any kind of gray area, you were simply not allowed to do that. And what he wanted was their entire life to be wrapped up in the church. They really were supposed to be their life was supposed to be basically coterminous with their existence in the church. So let me just show you this, John. Here's a letter that I wrote to Dr. Freeman back in December of 1977. So I'm

18 years old. December and his handwriting response is in the bottom. And my question to him, I said, dear brother Freeman, I have a question. Would it or would it not be okay to work for the government as a postman? And the reason I was asking that was, here I am. I know, a sophomore in college or something. And there was an opportunity to get a good job with the post office as a summer job. So his response in his own handwriting in red in 1977, when we're talking about professions, he said, any union with the government is not God's will.

It's not the kind of work one does for the state or government, but a Christian belongs to another kingdom and should not be entangled with the world's kingdom. So obviously, didn't get that job. So anything related to the government, he felt that the government was under Satan's control. And so, you know, I wondered about, what about Daniel in the Old Testament? He was second in command in Babylon. What about Joseph in Egypt? He was second in command in Egypt.

And those men were somehow able to work for a foreign government and still maintain all of their dignity and their spirituality. Hobart might have said, well, that was Old Testament, but doesn't matter. The situation is still the same. Not only are you working for the government, but you're in one of the highest positions possible. And yet, they were able to do it, so why can't we? It just feels so out of place for people who were never in this, to think about a preacher preaching against unions. And I've heard sermons similar to that.

Basically, one of Brannum's themes was Satan's Eden. It was the notion that the government had been invaded by the quote unquote communists, because it was running off of the red scare of all of his fear-based religion was building up on all of the scares of the 50s and 60s. And so, many of those things carried forward, but what's really odd about it, especially when you consider Hobart Freeman, while those were hot topics of the 50s and 60s, they weren't very hot topics as you entered into the 80s. And by the time I was a child and I was hearing some of these

things, like I grew up with sermons about the unions, and one of the favorite ones was that Fort Knox was part of the Mirage Satan had created, and there was no gold in Fort Knox, and they're just the government has tricked all the people. The dollar's not worth anything, so give it to me. Give me your dollars. That was the kind of sermons I grew up with.

Yeah, how convenient. It might have been a thing back in the 50s and 60s. I don't know about the Fort Knox thing, but as you get further and further distanced from the political themes that had entered religion of the 50s and 60s, those same political Teams no longer make sense to many people.

And so what we ended up with was a, if the union workers won strike, you'd find every union worker in the whole congregation going, yes, yes, this thing's of the devil. But at the moment in which the strikes ended and they get better, you know, whatever it is, better insurance or better wages, they're like, I don't know about this whole demon thing.

It's this union worked out pretty well. And I'm not saying on four or against unions, but the fact that they merged politics and religion and then carried it forward as a doctrine makes the whole thing just make less sense to me.

Because if the cult leader remained alive, which Hobart did, some of those political themes that he had in the 50s and 60s, he's still standing on, standing firm on them as though they're still problematic in the 70s, 80s.

And I'm not certain that many of them were, but I wasn't alive back then. I talked to a minister, an ex-minister this weekend, first time I had talked to him, an hour and 54 minutes when he called me, but an ex-faith assembly.

And one of the hardcore ones, one of the Freemonyne by his own admission. And, you know, he feels terrible about it now. He said he's made public apologies and I said, hey, brothers, you know, it's no problem.

I mean, our past is our past. He was pretty distraught over it. He actually sent me texts after John that he's heard, listened to these podcasts. And he said they are, I should pull his text up.

It was just really meaningful. He said, these are so meaningful to me because even though he has been away from the Freemonyne side of it, I'm gonna say 19 years by his dating 19 years, he said, I still struggle with being afraid, you know, have I done the right thing?

Have I done the wrong thing? And I think just listening to you and I talk and other people who can talk about this, I think we talk about it fairly. I think we talk about it reasonably, responsibly.

We're not throwing out barbs of hate and anger and meanness and I wish this person was dead and all of this kind of stuff. It's kind of matter of fact, but it's also you and I can laugh about it.

Not because it's a laughing matter, except we look back on some of our own stupidity than that is a laughing matter. But I mean, what else can you do? Either laugh or cry, it's your choice, what you wanna do over all of it.

And once you cry, it's time to stop crying and say, yeah, those were some really strange positions that I held at one time. But yeah, he was one of the strong ones. But the point, he made an interesting point where we were talking about some of these legalisms as you and I are today that Hobart had and how Hobart himself had been guilty of them and had migrated away. But when he taught about them, he taught about them like, oh, I mean, this is just the fact and God's truth. And I don't know why you don't know this,

because I know it. And I've always known it. And he never explained his migration away from it. So this one we're talking about related to the government is one of them. He and his wife were house parents and a children's home in Kentucky when Hobart was back in his college in seminary days. Well, you're all entangled with governmental regulations and policies if you are the home or house parents in a children's home in the state of Kentucky or anywhere. And I think that's fine. I don't see any spiritual or legal or scriptural problem, you know, with being

part of a children's home. But his point was, isn't it interesting that Dr. Freeman was allowed to do that back in his day, but we're not allowed to in ours. And we're not allowed to in such a in such a legalistic mean spirited way where he just comes across hard on everyone. So you talk about unions, you bring me right into the next area I wanted to cover and that concerning, concerned unions, clubs, organizations, associations, band at school, cheerleading, anything like that. So if people want to listen to a message entitled restoration of right relationships, which was done in the early 1980s, they're in the new building. And the hand of

the pulpit is coming down hard and heavy on everyone. And before I give this quote, here's a background he's talking about, if you're a Christian, you're going to have right relationships, which he goes on to say, which means you will not have any worldly quote unquote worldly relationships.

And then he defines that you won't have any unsaved friends. In other words, the only people you're allowed to associate with are fellow Christians. And because their definition of what it meant to be a Christian and overcome or a manchild became so narrow, you know what that ends up being, John, you really can't associate with anybody except people here in the church. So here you have this, you know, this infestation of inbreeding of all these people where all you hear is what you're already hearing from the pulpit. You say it. The pulpit says it. Your brother and sister echo it.

You know, it's just, so you're just repeating all of the cult doctrine. You can't have friends outside the church. You can't listen to anything outside the church. So on the seven minute, 55 second time stamp. Here's what he said, Christians cannot be unequiv- fully yoked to the world.

These are his words, whether in marriage, partnership, business partners, clubs, lodges, labor unions, co-ops.

Then he goes on to say, you see, I'm not a member of any radio club. Mahabhi is amateur radio, but I'm not a member of any radio club. End of quote. So, partnerships, businesses, marriages, clubs, labor unions, co-ops.

A lot of these people would go to co-ops. Amish or men and night, food co-op, to buy food. You're drawing a really, really tight circle. But when I heard him say this, this many years ago, and he had said similar things, I'm just able to find a real good, exact, concise quote where he puts all of these things together.

He's hinted at it all along. You can't have, well, why would you want to go fishing with an unsafe friend? Why would that even be your friend? Why wouldn't you go with a Christian?

Why do you even have friends that are unsafe? And that's probably a whole nother subject, although, maybe let me make this comment that comes to mind, if you don't mind, John. One of the qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 for a pastor is that he must have a good report of those who are without.

It is so interesting that Paul gave that as a qualification for a Christian minister. And Hobart obviously could not meet that qualification because he was either hated by everyone without or not known by anyone without.

And I think Paul's whole point there is you've got to have a balance in your life. And as I told this minister, I talked to out on my front porch here for an hour and 54 minutes this weekend, he would have made a better Roman Catholic monk than anything.

He really needed to be in a monastery away from people where he couldn't damage anybody except his fellow monks because he did not know how to fellowship with other human beings. I mean, he was a recluse for sure.

He was very isolated. Paul said, you've got to have a good report. In order to have a good report of those outside the Christian faith, you have to have interaction with them so that they know, yeah, maybe I don't agree with your Christianity, but everything else about you is something that is something worth emulating.

You're a good and outstanding person. But Hobart said, you can't even have friends. You can't be a part of any clubs. However, this is what's interesting. However, he says, very specifically, you see, I'm not a member of any radio club, but everyone knew that that was his hobby, amateur radio.

My hobby is amateur radio, but I'm not a member of any radio club, not a member since when, Hobart. part. He was most definitely a member of the four Wayne amateur radio club in 1975, five years prior to him saying this. And guess what his handle was? Overcomer. That was his handle in the group. And people in that radio group have been interviewed. And they said, oh, yeah, that whole bar Freeman, he was a member of our club of our group of our amateur radio club and group. But he always sat in the back and would never talk to anybody. Typical

whole bar Freeman, you know, he had no social skills whatsoever. You know, he had put his left footwear as right foot should go when it came to social skills. He just didn't have them. But what I don't like about this John and what I'm trying to point out. And it's probably true with William Brannon and all these other people you've talked about. They, you know, they have a fork tongue. They speak out of one side of their mouth. But out of the other side of their mouth or life, we see five years earlier, Hobart was most definitely of the four winter radio club. So

at the very minimum, he owed these people an explanation. It's okay to change your beliefs. I've changed mine. That's a hundred percent allowable. But if you're going to be a public speaker at the bare minimum at this juncture, we're now you're going to outlaw clubs at the bare minimum. It is your responsibility to say, look, I was a member of the Fort Wayne radio club at one time. I cancel my membership and hear the reasons why. And now I want to bring you into my bondage with me.

But he never did that. You know, it's just an attribute of a destructive cult. Because if a man decides, hey, I'm going to start a cult, which that's usually not how it works. But if that were the case, and they were to suddenly step up on a platform and say, everybody who's in a Christian church is a sinner. And I'm not going to associate myself with you at all. You guys are evil. Well, nobody's going to join them, right? There, there, there has to be an initial inclusivity. And in the laterane revivals, that's the way it was. Everybody was welcome. It

didn't matter if you were, they advertise it as an interdenominational faith. That's how they advertised it. So everybody's welcome. It doesn't matter if you're Catholic. It doesn't matter if you're Baptist. Everybody can join in this thing. And Brandon, who spearheaded, would make statements in the early years, like if they, if they draw you out of your circle, draw a bigger circle and draw them back in. In other words, be friends with everybody. But whenever the assemblies of God started sanctioning them, Indiana became a rogue state for the assemblies of God, because of Branham, the leadership in the state of Indiana were supportive of Branham. And I've

got details of this on the website. You can look it up. But they basically, because of last are reigned, they were bucking the overall agenda of the assemblies of God until it turned into sanctions.

So these ministers who were in it started getting sanctioned and they got very vicious whenever they did. So those circles got a little bit more exclusive. They started creating us versus them. You're the part of the healing revival or you're not.

And towards the end, as it became excessively more destructive, they basically just cut everybody off and there were no circles. You have only closed doors. And you beat me to the verse, but Brannum used 2 Corinthians 6, he was talking about do not be unequally yoked yourself with unbelievers.

He applied that to anybody who didn't believe his flavor of Christianity, which was essentially the message. So if you're outside of this, you're unwelcome. But it created a unique problem. Because in the early years of this thing, everybody was welcome.

And the rules weren't quite as tight as they were towards the latter years. So my father is one. In the healing revivals, my father claimed to have been healed of rheumatic fever. And according to my grandfather's story, my dad was about to die.

Went through the prayer line, was healed. And came back the next year and won the physical fitness award in school. And had all of these school friends that were proud of him. So this created a conundrum.

Because in the latter years, as it became excessively rules based against education and the education system, while many cult members were not allowed to go to public schools, when my dad's testimony was that he got healed and won the award in a public school.

And while they weren't allowed to have public school friends and nonbelievers, while all of his friends at the school were public school friends. So I grew up outside of that rule while attending churches that preached against it.

So my head is literally playing tug of war my entire life with my dad says it's okay. My pastor says it's not. And my dad is going directly to the source. He's pulling up quotes by William Branham from the early years.

He's telling me it's okay. You can associate with these people. They're Christians too. And so in my head, I'm just internally fighting this. I can't imagine years later. I mean, we're talking Branham died in 1965.

So I can't imagine in Hobart Freeman's call. So many years after this, people would have seen both sides of it, not like me, who just only saw the unique side. They would have went through all of the stages of this, many of these people.

So what it had to have done to the heads, I can't even imagine. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign?

Charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

People went to that church, John, most of the people, out of a sincere desire to

know more, to learn more, and to be pleasing to God. A lot of the people had tried other churches that will give you a 15-minute sermon at on Sunday morning. And here with someone who's going to teach an hour or hour and 10 minutes, on a topic, and you go, man, I do, I want to know the Bible. I just want to understand God's word more. You gave me time to go find the text.

I won't mention this man's name. I don't ever want to hurt or embarrass anybody. He's a good brother. I really enjoyed talking to him. He had been trading texts with me since these podcasts began, but he's always been hesitant to call. He finally figured out, and I probably wouldn't bite his head off, so he finally called. And we had a really good conversation. I just just a good conversation. He had information that I didn't have, but he's been really listening to these podcasts. So I share this not only for your audience, but I share it for you,

because you're the one who is spearheading all this, and it's always good to get really good feedback. And so here's what he said, part of long text. I know God, this is a minister who preached it for years after Hobart died, preached Hobart's doctrine. So he wasn't one that went soft with Steve Hill and Jeff Barnett and Gary Wilson in that group. He was going to tow the line all the way. He said, I know God loves us and loves me in spite of all my flaws and baggage, but hearing you share this has really blessed and helped me. I've been waiting for God to judge

me for every wrong move and decision I made. And when you live like that, it is very unsettling. I know it really isn't that way, but still it's lurking in the back of my mind. And I think that's exactly what cult people go through. I even said to him, and I have said to other people, the most dangerous time is It's like any abusive relationship.

You know, if a woman is in an abusive, marital situation, the most dangerous time is that exit period. Because you hear so many times, you know, the husband goes crazy and murders or something.

If you can get through that exit period and it's a shorter, longer period of time just depending on the situation and the people. If you can get through that, you're gonna be okay. But during that exit period, although you might not have people physically, such as in a bad marriage, going to try to kill you, what I have seen, what I have seen happen because I've heard it from people.

People have listened to the truth. And I would say the truth is what you and I are trying to share. These are the facts. These are the truths of these cults. So they listen to them.

They're on the fence. They start to climb over the fence to the green pasture side and leave the cult. And then boom, something negative happens. They lose their job. The wife is in a car wreck.

The child has an ear rake. As soon as some negative circumstance happens, they almost invariably interpret that as, oh, this is God. God's telling me don't barely leave the cult. And that's what he is.

This man has had to deal with. If anything bad happens, if something bad happens to me now, I don't go always because I criticize Hobart Freeman in 1982. You don't try to connect that.

But if it's happening during the time you're processing this or trying to leave, I would just encourage everyone, don't base your decisions based on some external experience that's happening in your life. That may have been what got you in the cult in the first place.

Based it on sound reasoning, based it on facts. Just because something negative has happened to you as you are leaving the cult, that's not necessarily God. I would say it's definitely not. But from their point of view, it's not necessarily any indication that you're getting ready to make a bad decision.

You know, if you want to talk about the devil and the demons, maybe that's the devil who calls that to happen in your life, trying to keep you in the cult and keep you from leaving the cult.

But anyway, he said, he said, I hope I haven't bored you. I don't mean to waste your time. I'm just happy to connect with you knowing that you understand. There is so much water over the bridge and some under it that's helping me just sharing it.

I've tried going to counseling, but they just didn't understand. So that didn't do me any good. I know you and Sarah Rundell had a good conversation about counseling and sometimes it might be better to not go to a Christian counselor who is simply gonna give you verses.

And that's good, but they're gonna give you verses from the Bible trying to solve. their issues, and that's one of the things that calls you so many problems is someone giving you verses from the Bible to make you believe what they wanted you to believe.

So he said, I've tried going to counseling, but they just didn't understand. God bless you, brother, and thanks for all your time and for all your support. So that's from someone, John, who taught the message 20 years after Hobart died and has been away from it 20 years.

As you can tell, wow, 20 years later, you know, my heart goes out to these people. It's some of it's still fresh and some of it's still raw form, and I don't know what else to do, but you know, you and I just keep laying on layer upon layer upon layer where there's really no way you can deny these connections.

You know, you mentioned it might be the devil trying to keep you in the cult. My mind just went all kinds of different directions. You hit one of my triggers. You hit one of my triggers.

So there are, if you've read the Bible as many times as I have, and not just read it, some people read it just to say they're reading it, but if you actually read it to study it, to learn it, to examine it, to understand it, there are key concepts that you'll find that do not fit with a black and white cult mentality.

One of them is suffering. If you read the Bible and you understand every single thing that is said about suffering, there are the righteous who suffer, there are the unrighteous who suffer, there are the righteous who suffer because they're being tested, there are the unrighteous who suffer because they've been unrighteous.

There's a whole variety. It's a smorgasbord of suffering, basically. But in the black and white cult mentality, it's used to the advantage of the cult leader for the punishment of the people. What I mean by that is, if you are thinking about leaving, well, if you do leave, you're going to suffer.

Satan's going to come on you because you've left and you've suffered. Or if you're thinking about leaving, you'll suffer. And they'll quote the specific flavors of suffering in the Bible that match that agenda, but they don't tell you the other side.

Or if you're, you know, the people who are suffering in the cult, there's many people who are suffering in the cult. In the same breath almost that they're condemning those people who are thinking of leaving or have left, they'll say this person is suffering and they're, oh, such a devout person because God's really testing them and then they go to the other passages.

And it really doesn't work in the framework that they create this fear, these walls of fear about suffering. And we had it a lot in the message cult. And I'm told by people who have escaped IHOP, they had the same kind of thing.

They had fear of suffering. Yeah, it's very, very common among the cults. But to your point, it, you can't really look at life like that. If you're going to leave and you're... Your cult leader has convinced you that if you leave you're going to suffer, well, he's probably right because there isn't a person on this earth that doesn't go through a trial of some kind.

You are going to have something bad happen to you. You're going to also if you don't leave have something bad happen to you because it is life. That is the one thing that they can predict is that you will have some hard times because that is what life is all about.

It's how do you cope with those hard times and how do you rise above it? Yeah, so true. I can't speak to the message or some of these others. I just know what Freeman would definitely say.

But I'm sure you're right that that is part of the method of holding on to people. Oh, we know it is. You build up these walls of fear around where there should just be no wall.

People should be allowed to come and I gave you a story a month ago of a family that had moved from New York state and they stayed a few months and just realized the husband and wife in their own mind.

I don't really think that was God's will even though we totally love and agree with everything Hobart said. I really think we need to move and so they went back to New York and Hobart just basically dismissed them.

Instead of saying, you know, we love you. We'll pray for you there. Thank you for your support from New York. It's, you know, no, we have walls around and once you get in, we don't want anyone hopping the wall and getting back out.

We talked about in the past hunting. We kind of blew that one out of the water. No hunting is allowed by Christian. So I won't recover that. But I will recover the fact I was shocked at one of the ministers, one of the top tier ministers.

At the meeting back in July that I went to, I said, were you present at faith assembly comfort for present comfort for trouble times part one and two or Hobart's messages in October of 1984?

Were you present to this brother? He actually gave that message and said no hunting. Oh yeah, I never missed a message. I was there. What did you think? When you heard from the pulpit, no weapons of death, bows, arrows, guns, no hunting. And he was a big hunter. He was a fisherman and he was a hunter.

When he found out I was a fishing guy, now he wants me to take him out fishing. He said, well, I didn't personally agree with what he said. However, because he was my pastor, you know, I wanted to show proper respect and submission. So I quit hunting.

That just blew my mind for someone to admit the guy's wrong. I mean, he said, I don't agree with that. So you admit he's wrong or that's just his opinion. It's not your opinion.

But then you are still going to submit to it, isn't that the very essence of what came out of Florida under the title Shepard Shepard Shepard. And that was one of the main charismatic deviations, you know, errors within the charismatic movement that Holbarg talked about incessantly, actually has three tapes on it.

And then he did an update and you've got to get all four of those together. And it's talking about the people that you know, Derek Prince, Earnbackster, Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, and whoever the fifth one was.

That's the very essence of Shepard Shepard where there is a heavy dependence on another human being over you, you're Shepard, you're the sheep, for the decisions you make in life. Whether major, minor, major decisions, who to marry, where to live, where to move, what job, minor, what to wear, whether I go hunting for squirrel tomorrow morning or not.

Isn't that the very definition of Shepard Shepard. And yet we don't believe in Shepard Shepard Shepard. Dr. Freeman taught against Shepard Shepard Shepard. We've got four tapes on the tape list against Shepard Shepard.

It's just so funny John, how people can say they have all these views and when the rubber meets the road. That was the Shepard Shepard Shepard Shepard Shepard, was faith assembly with Hobart as the leader.

People think that beliefs are what make a cult a cult. It's not just beliefs and maybe it's not so much beliefs. It is if there is pressure and fear and intimidation and threatening and elitism, if that's involved, that's a cult.

If there's power, power equals cult. If there is power control and power being exerted, that is a cult. Because a true church, a true pastor, a true minister is not going to exhibit that.

He is going to preach what he thinks is true. And he's going to love everybody in his audience. And some of them will agree with him, and some of them will not. And most of them will stay, and occasionally some of them will leave.

And that's just the nature of the beast, you know. And if you think you've got to lasso everyone around the neck and drag them back in and force them to believe, I mean, who would want to be the leader?

I would not want to be the leader of a group where I had to force those people to agree with me, you know. What kind of group is that? You know how whenever a person is a serial liar, one lie leads to another, and then that lie can't exist until you add this other lie, and pretty soon you've...

got nothing but a trail of lies behind you. Well, in these rules-based religions, these fundamentalist rules-based cults, the problem with the rules is the fact that the people who are trying to save themselves by the rules can't logically do so.

And so new rules have to be added. And like the lies on top of the lies, the rules on top of the rules never makes sense. So if you just unravel it, one little thread unravels the whole thing.

There were probably critical thinkers in that church who were thinking, okay, so we can't have a weapon of death. Well, I grew up on a farm. Have you ever seen how a hog is slaughtered or a cow, how a chicken, I mean a hatchet is a hatchet that chops off a chicken's head?

Is that a weapon of death? Well, absolutely. So does that mean that because of this new rule, now do I cut poultry from my diet? Do I cut beef, you know, that kind of thing?

These rules, they never make sense, but they're compounded. And in the end, it's really the same thing as the serial liar. The man who is claiming the rules are going to earn your way to heaven is, in fact, lying.

So the lie leads to another lie, the rule leads to another rule. And the foundation of it is exactly the same. Yeah, I remember thinking years ago of the vegetarian path you could take as you're just intimating, if you really want to follow this to its logical conclusion, if I as a church member, I'm not allowed to have a weapon of death and not allowed to kill an animal, can I eat an animal that somebody else murdered?

You know, technically I would say no, because you have purchased from them, they have done a terrible deed. So now you're employing them. You're funding them, murdering the chicken, or the lamb, or the cow, or the goat, or whatever it is.

So yeah, that would logically, if you want to be consistent, and consistency, thou art a jewel, but you rarely see it. If you want to be logical, you've got to be a vegetarian. Right, so.

And those who aren't are not following the letter of the law. I'm telling you, I think I said last time, you could barely outfair see Dr. Freeman. He was a Pharisee of the Pharisees.

And when you see all these things taken away from everybody, I'm nicknamed instead of Dr. Freeman, I call him Dr. Killjoy, because he's just trying to take everybody's joy away. You're just not allowed to do anything, but come to church, buy a tape, go home, listen to it over and over and over.

Till you wear it out, or you bore yourself to tears. All right, so let's move on to another topic. How about competitive sports? Yes, competitive sports. Let's go to a message entitled Discipleship, abandoned ship, question mark, which I have in my notes. It was a terrible, terrible message.

Very critical, very arrogant. Starting at the 29 minute and 10 second mark, he just launches into this lecture against sports. And he really is directing it toward the ministers in the church. He had probably heard that Steve Hill and Bruce Kins and other people were playing golf, playing tennis, all of which were things Hobart couldn't do since he was a polio victim. So he wanted to make sure they didn't have any fun doing it. Well, he didn't say that was his motive. His motive was if you've got time to go do all of those things, hit and chase

those little balls around, then you have time to be in your study in the Bible and prayer. So, he's wanting to control your own private time. I mean, how much of your week belongs to Hobart? It's more than just the two hours of the message. I guess it's the rest of the week also belongs to him where he's going to tell you what you can and what you can't do. So he says in this clip here, don't take it as his opinion. And now I'm quoting, if this has your name and address on it, you better receive it end of quote. And that was directed, as I said, not only to the whole group,

but specifically to what he called the word ministers. And that was just their little phrase for the guys that stood up and taught. You know, they said they had a five-fold ministry belief there, but as I said, they only had a one-fold ministry. And that's a teacher. They didn't have any apostles, no prophets, no evangelists, and no pastors. Hobart was not a pastor. They didn't have any of the first four. The only one they had. So I don't know why they kept saying five-fold, five-fold.

They'd say he's a five-fold minister. And I would say, do you mean one-fold? You can't be a five-fold minister. If you only have teachers in your church, you can be a one-fold ministry. They would always say, well, he's a part of the five-fold. And I said, no, he's not. He's a part of the one-fold because he's a teacher. And they're at the bottom of that list that Paul gives in Ephesians 4.11.

And you know what's interesting, John? Hobart's pretty smart guy. I always gave him credit. Hobart was nobody's fool as far as not anticipating what someone was going to say to try to get him in a corner. So he goes on to say, he just anticipates the fact that he had polio. And so he knew someone was probably going to say what I just said, oh, it's just because you can't run and jump and play. That you don't want the rest of us to get to run and jump and play. So he said, I don't think it's just because I had polio. And he said,

He played football and I thought, yeah, right. Maybe in your mind, you know, maybe playing it imagined in your imagination, but you can't play football. He said, well, I could throw the ball. We have to be able to scramble if you're the quarterback.

There's no way Hobart played football to any level or degree that I would be interested in knowing about. You know, I'm sitting here laughing because I'm one of these weird conundrums. There were many people, many churches in the cult that also spoke against playing sports, any kind of sport.

But because of my dad's testimony, he went back and won the physical fitness sporting award in his school, I was allowed to play sports. However, I grew up as an artist and a musician and I never wanted to.

I just, I was no good at it. You know, I could hit a ball, but I wasn't really, I didn't find it that challenging. You know, anybody can take a stick and hit a ball.

So I'd rather sit there with a guitar. And all the kids who, some of them, weren't allowed to play sports. I'm sure they looked at me with envy because I could have, but I didn't.

And I was like, well, why are you not? I did some, very minimally. I did play, but it changed quite a bit because random sons, you know how in the cults, there are rules for thee, but not for me.

Well, the sons love sports. And so while vast swaths of people in the message cult weren't allowed to, there were anybody who was affiliated with the main sect that had the sons who were leading it, they all love sports and they would even gather and have sporting events.

So it was this weird conundrum because I can remember clearly going to one of the church gatherings at Easter, that's when everybody flocks here. So we had people from Africa, from South America, from all these different places.

And they were just shocked because there's sports right here on the grounds. And that simple way, brother, why are you doing this? There's this big conundrum, right? Yeah, and I did come from a sports background, but when I heard these statements, I did not believe them, perceive them, accept them at all, but it was just very troubling.

I saw the path he was going down. My dad went to college on a division one college on a basketball scholarship. So I played basketball in soccer and football. I was the number one seed on our tennis team.

And a year later in our whole church, we all played tennis together because I got everyone playing tennis as a pastor and teacher and taught them all how to play tennis. It's a great exercise and it's something that men and women can do.

You could even play with your wife, you know, play doubles against another couple. But when I heard a Hobart say that, I just saw, I mean, I really thought what an idiot, you know, and I thought, what damage you're doing to these people, you know, you've already taken away all education.

So you... taking away high paying jobs, you've taken away sports. They're just they're out to let all some steam and go get some physical exercise and stay in good shape and clear your mind of all they're listening to and they have to come back and hear you on Sunday morning.

You're just, you're Dr. Kiljoy, you are a professional scrooge of all scrooges taking these things away from these lovely, lovely people who have already laid down their life. Some of them have moved from other states to be a part of your church.

I mean, John, it was terrible. They've laid down their life to be, to follow you, Hobart Freeman, and you're just taking all these things away from them. Instead of giving them things, you're taking all these things away from them.

I just felt just what a horrible situation those people were in who were living there. And, you know, I'm sure some of them, you know, husbands and wives, even though you're not supposed to disagree with the pastor, you know, if you had a decent marriage, husband and wives had to, before they fell asleep at night in bed, say, well, what do you think about this?

Well, honey, I guess, you know, we're gonna have to sell our guns and I'm gonna have to sell my basketball and sell my tennis rackets and, you know, get rid of everything. And you're just going into this deeper and deeper depression.

And I think Hobart was, I mean, it was not a lively group anymore. How can it be when all you have to look forward to each week is him. All you've got to look forward to is listening to him.

And I think Hobart himself was tired of listening to himself talk. He just was outlawing all of these things. One other thing and maybe we wanna wrap this up. He had a big, big view against gambling, you know, and I'm sure this will touch a lot of things in your background with what I've seen in your podcast, John.

But gambling for him is not the mafia. You know, that's gambling. Gambling for him, you know, Hobart was, he was more like a scribe and a Pharisee in the New Testament. He could get the little minute things.

So the stock market, any type of drawing, any kind of lottery, he said that gambling is a sin, that if you were able to acquire anything without earning it, another word without having to work for it, then you have taken advantage of another human being and you have sinned against another human being.

So the stock market's definitely, you know, that is a risk. You put money in, hoping to make money on, putting your name in a hat for a drawing. That is a, Pants game and anything that is ruled by chance or luck, quote, unquote, is totally unscriptural.

They were not even allowed to use the word luck. Because I remember hearing people say, yeah, I was really lucky. Up. And then they would have to go back and correct themselves. And look, let me, well, I see you laughing, John.

Let me just make a comment on luck and lucky. If you look, all Christians believe that God is the one who is in control of all things. So when you use the word luck, unless you truly believe, and no one at faith assembly ever would have held this belief, unless you truly believe that God is not in control of anything.

And there is some immaterial force out there called luck that might call something to happen. And unless you believe that, as long as you know who God is, I'm reminded of the book of Ruth, where, where Ruth went out.

I think it's in chapter two of the little four chapter book of Ruth. I'd had to look it up. And it says the writer said she happened upon a field. She just happened upon it.

It was Boaz's this field. And what the author is saying, he could have said she was just lucky and started picking up sheaves in Boaz's this field, in what would end up being the right field.

He didn't use the word lucky, but he used the word hap, H-A-P in the King James, or happened. And all that is is she didn't know. She just picked the field and started doing.

And it was just lucky, quote unquote, that she chose that field, because God was the one behind the scenes. God had directed everything. She chose the right field. It was Boaz's this field. But still, the Bible even used that word hap, H-A-P, or happened as we might use the word luck or lucky.

But then it would even digress. No dice, no cards, no board games, then no card games. Even if it isn't stud or draw, if it's just, you know, Gin runny, no card cards themselves became evil, and it just works its way on down.

So now you can't play sports. Now you can't even play any board games. You can't roll the dice. You can't have cards. What are you going to do when all of you get together except plug in a tape of Hobart Freeman and all sit around and listen to it?

So you saw me dying laughing. I told you I'm a conundrum in many, many different ways. The similarities are just uncanny. So I grew up in a doomsday cult, which, you know, the Freeman cult was.

And in a doomsday cult, you don't stay for retirement because there's no need. But as with everything with a cult, it's so much more complex than that. One of the doctrines was against the stock market.

I can't tell you how many times I heard The stock market is just gambling. You guys are gambling and just ridicule people who probably in the audience had stocks and had retirement. I did not have, I started my first retirement account like, gosh, I think it was only seven years ago, six or seven years ago, it wasn't long ago.

And the irony is that cults progress gradually and you don't really notice it while you're there. But my family moved away for a few years. I can't remember how long, but we moved in the middle of nowhere in Kansas.

And my mother and father, ironically, for a doomsday cult, were incredibly sick. My dad nearly died with diabetes. He went into a diabetic coma, all kinds of issues. Then my mother got chronic illnesses, she got sick.

So I grew up in this world where everybody's sick and then we moved back to Jeffersonville. Well, in the time that we had moved away and the time that we had moved back, the cult had progressed further and further on the chance doctrines, just like you said.

I grew up, I was not allowed to have playing cards because that was a game of chance. But I could play monopoly and I could roll dice, I could do all this. When I moved back to Jeffersonville, I was sitting down to play, I don't know if you remember the game, Life with some people.

Yeah. Has that spinner right? Well, I love that spinner. That thing was fun when I was a kid. I sat down to play with him and I reached for it and they slapped my hand.

I'm like, what are you guys doing? And they pulled out this device, an electric device that had numbers in it and they could push a button and it would give them a number. And that's how the entire cult was playing monopoly and life and all these different games.

And I'm sitting here, I actually literally asked the person, I said, so you have a device that gives you a random number in the same way that a pair of dice or a spinner gives you a random number and you think it's wrong.

I just did not understand it, but I was outvoted because the whole cult here had progressed to that level. I have, by my desk, a case of Texas Holdham cars, cars, so I have it to learn it.

I still don't know how to play cards. Like, at this point, I've learned the faces and that's about it.

Hey, John, let me just read this one verse because I really wanted to read it in Ruth. It's in chapter two in verse three. She went and came and gleaned in the field after the reapers and her half was to light on a part of the field belonging unto Boaz, who was of the kindred of Elimilac.

In other words, from the perspective of Ruth, it was just a chance encounter, but it's not that Ruth or Naomi mother-in-law did not believe in the God of Israel, but it's okay to use that terminology.

You just need to be careful when you start trying to eliminate words from people's vocabularies. It's not a smart thing to do. Not at all. And there's so many other, like if you study the Bible, there's like casting lots, which is the same thing.

And our terminology would say drawing straws, you know, whoever draws the shortest one. Life has chance in it, too, so you can't pull it away. Anyway, this is fun. You brought back so many memories, and we're not even talking about the Brannum call.

It's kind of crazy. I've got a few more of these legalisms to touch on. They go into a little more detail, so maybe we can pick up with that next score around John. That sounds good.

So we'll pick up where we left off. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the NAR, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Audible.