NAR vs Christianity: With Peter Yang

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org. And with me, I have my very special guest, Peter Yang, former member of the NAR.

Peter, it's good to have you on here. We chatted a bit before this podcast and then over the phone, I guess it was last week. Do you have quite a story to tell about the NAR and you've had some experiences that I think a lot of people are going to be really interested to hear and I think we'll really connect to.

So I'm very glad to have you on. Maybe if you could just take a few minutes and tell everybody a little bit about yourself. All right. Well, first of all, I just want to say that it's a pleasure to meet you, John.

I have watched your show and learned quite a bit. Main thing, just kind of questioning a lot of the things that I already believed to be true. And then so just kind of, I think it's healthy to dig in to what you believe and what you believe, right?

So just briefly as an intro, so I've been a Christian since I was 13 years old. So I got saved at a retreat, sometimes happens when you grow up in the church. And I had a salvation experience where just kind of, I believe it was kind of a alter call at a, you know, the preacher was preaching.

And then I just, you know, gave my life to the Lord. I can relate. I, I've seen many alter calls growing up and it wasn't where I had my salvation experience. But I've seen many of them and I think a lot of people will connect and relate to that because it is, it's very common.

A lot of people will get up into the, you know, into the height of the emotions during the service and the alter call brings a lot of people in. So I'm curious, you were, if I remember correctly, you were a part of Morningstar, is that correct?

Right. Okay. Yeah. I was. So, okay, let me, let me give you a little history. and how I got involved because actually it goes a little further back and I mentioned this to you when we first interacted. So I was back in the late 80s and this was when the other group of people that have been in the news, IHOP, right?

So I was attending the vineyard at the time. So I'm originally from California, Southern California. So right now I'm in South Carolina, but I grew up in Southern California and I could probably go longer but I don't want to go to the long path. Let's just kind of get to it. So I grew up in Christian reform and that was the church that I got saved at Christian reform. However, while I was in the youth group, so I got influenced by a youth pastor that came and at the time he was a student at Fuller Theological Seminary. I know you mentioned Fuller

on some of the other broadcasts. And guess what? Who was the big star over there at the time? It was right when John Wimber had the signs and wonders class. So it broke out and a lot of these young ministers were heavily influenced by him. So then as I kind of grew up out of the church I was going at, then I started attending at a vineyard. So and that was when John Wimber was there. So I know that you had some, you kind of shared intimated that you had some pushback because you set a few things about John Wimber and he's definitely dear to many

people's hearts, especially if you're in the charismatic circle just because in terms of I think his demeanor and just the way he was. And I had a front front view of that. I wasn't in leadership. I know you had one of your broadcasts. You had Jack Deere's son, I believe, right? Yeah, I remember watching.

Yeah, yeah. So Jack Deere was a pastor, was a associate pastor when I was there as well. So it goes pretty pretty far back. And then of course he's known for his book, John, I'm sorry, John Wimber was known for the power evangelism. That was that was his big book that he wrote. And again, not to go too long, but my journey was, so when I kind of got influenced in the, the quote, don't call it charismatic. I took a turn a little bit at one point with the whole word of faith people, right? That would have been like Kenneth Hagen, John, Kenneth Copeland,

that group, or Roberts. So I remember reading a lot of that material and the prosperity teaching and all that. And I'll have to tell you, when I was kind of in a bit of a confusion at the time, what brought to me at the time, what brought balance was John Wimber, John Wimber's teaching. People have a lot of opinions about him and they think about him as like, you know, the healing and all that because he was known for that. But what people don't know, he was very biblically sound. I mean, in my opinion, and it's not unusual on a Sunday morning,

he would get up on the pulpit and he would basically just open the Bible and just kind of go word by word and read it in context. Because that's what a lot of the people of Q's character matters. You guys don't really read the Bible, you take words out of context.

But is that called expository teaching, I believe? You just kind of read. Yeah, so he did a lot of that. And, you know, what, you know, obviously you're going to have a difference of opinion based on whether or not you believe the gifts are still active today or that they stop with the apostles, right? The whole argument, the debate between cessationists and I think you call it continuationists, the ones that believe it still exist. So anyways, that was the context. That matches my research as well. I don't know if you've seen it or not, but we spun off

a new series called Charismania that I'm doing with Cynthia. And we are, we're talking about exactly that. John Wember had a style of preaching that it connected with a lot of people. He went through the Bible and he focused on specific, you know, phrase by phrase by phrase in the Bible passage, which it honestly had it pros and cons and we're going to examine that a bit further. But that matches my research and I'm curious and interested to learn more about John Wember, because Wember was a conduit, if you will, between what Chuck Smith had created and the International

House of Prayer, which the IHOP KC was basically Brannemism 2.0. And you can see the conduit happening there came through Paul Cain and I learned just recently Paul Cain was connected deeply to Chuck Smith and Chuck Smith also had a different style of preaching. He was a latering minister and he was apparently he was Paul Cain's campaign manager if I'm understanding the history correctly.

but all of that ties together. And John Wember had the signs, wonders, miracles, he called it power evangelism. And Chuck Smith would have had the same type of platform in Latter-Rain, especially working with Paul Cain, because that's what they were all doing back in the time.

So I'm very interested to hear more about that, because it's a very key component to my research. Right, so that was all a spring from the Jesus movement, right? Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee, and then a lot of movement sprang from that.

Vineyard was one of them. And I mean, I could go into a lot of what they call Wemberisms, he's got a lot of things that he says. And then one of the things that I remember, he said, so at first he started with Calvary Chapel.

I don't know if you know that. And then, of course, when the signs and wonders started happening, I guess he had a conversation with Chuck Smith and Chuck Smith said, we're kind of not into all that.

So I think with John, so kind of like they mutually parted.

But one of the things he always, he used to say is, I'm not going to leave until you give me your blessing. So he was very respectful of, he didn't want to leave on bad terms.

So he would always mention that. And so they obviously mutually parted. And I've been involved with Calvary Chapel as well over the years. I attended a Royal Reese's Church in Diamond Park, California, because I lived there for a time.

And there are more, I guess there are more about the word. And like Greg Glory, obviously also very prominent figure there. But anyways, so let's get back to the vineyard. So I used to, at first, I just started going to there.

They used to have a Sunday evening service, because the other thing that they are known for is the worship, right? The vineyard music. They were broadcast all over the world. And people were waiting for the next CD to come out.

We were listening to CDs back then. And then everybody would, their songs went all over the world. And then afterwards, integrity music came out. And they were sort of competing for the worship music.

So I started going there on the Sunday evening, while I was still attending my church. And then we would just come with a group of guys from our church. We would just drive over there, because it was like maybe an hour drive, I think.

And then a little bit a few years later, then I got, then I decided I'm going to attend there as a regular member. So we work. kind of, you know, in terms of, I guess you would consider that a mega church as well, Anaheim Vineyard, you know, because it was a pretty, because they purchased the property over there in Anaheim Hills. And, you know, it was a good church. I mean, in order for big churches to function properly, you got to have small groups. And so we had the small groups. And I was involved with the small group. And then these are the people you do

life with, right? The small group. Because you know, when you can get lost, if you just go to Sunday service, you've got this big church. But so anyways, and then, okay, I'll mention one other thing. And I don't know if you've heard this one, but the other thing, Anaheim Vineyard. And there, and I remember one lady mentioned, I think she was talking about like, it's kind of a franchise. And it is, I would say it is, because you know, they build, you know, they did a lot of church plants all over the world. And there's vineyard

ministries international. That was kind of, I think they were even financially supporting the new church plants and all that. So it's a little bit of a franchise. But one thing about Anaheim Vineyard, and I don't, I can't say too much about the other ones, because obviously I was, I wasn't at the other ones. But what, the other thing that we did, we had a very substantial ministry to the poor. And I don't know if anybody ever mentioned that, but I can tell you, because I was there. We had a warehouse where people were donating food. I think

we obviously also bought a lot of food from the food banks. And every week, people would come and we would give out food, groceries, and then a hot meal. And then also we would have ministry teams. After the church service, we would go out to like various areas and then just give out bags of grocery. And that was, that was one thing, you know, one of the knock I believe in the charismatic is this emphasis and the, and this too much focused on miracles, signs, and wonders. And you're not, and you're not doing the work of Jesus,

which is, you know, reaching the loss and feeding the poor. You know, that's something that not many people have mentioned. In fact, I think you may be the first that has mentioned to me, all of the research that I'm doing on these groups, you don't hear much about the feeding of the poor. They get really focused on the science, wonders, miracle, power evangelism. But the helping the needy, helping the poor, that's something that I can really get behind. We, you probably have heard on the podcast, but we tried several churches after leaving the message cult of William Brannum. And one of the churches that

really strongly connected to you had a ministry of helping the poor and the homeless in this, you know, in the local Jeffersonville, Louisville area. And that's something I can really get behind because there are people in need, and I think churches really should come together and help the poor.

And it's really, the irony for me is that that's one of the biblical instructions. And you find, even in this area, there are churches that just won't lift a finger or give a dime to helping the poor in needy. And I've had the conversation with the minister who's leading the efforts here.

And he said he has even went to some of the specific very large churches with large massive incomes trying to get help for the poor. And they just shut them down. They really don't want to get involved. That's something that I can get involved with, though. And it's interesting that you connect it to all of this because they're with all of this that I'm researching. They're both good and bad pros and cons. And even though I put some of these men on once I put them in my website, everybody looks at them and they think, oh, John's against this group or John's very critical. But

it's not really a black or white issue. There are good things. And then there are bad things. And and then there is the in between the gray areas where really my research focuses because I want to see how all of the dots connect. So it's, it's very good. But anyway, the, the feeding of the poor, that's something that I can really get behind. So, you know, like, I had a, I had a little bit of this kind of jumping around here, but I had a little bit of a crisis of faith. I remember

because I would, I started at a secular university after I graduated from high school. And when I was there, I got influenced by kind of like different Bible study groups that were there. And one of them was a group that were heavily influenced by John Win, I'm sorry, John MacArthur, great community who's obviously known for kind of the cessationist theology, right? And then I remember I read his book at the time. And the book was called Carras Mania. And he was kind of knocking, you know, like, I think mainly he was going after like the word of faith group, you know, with the prosperity,

teaching and all that. I, by the way, I do believe there is a prosperity message. But it's just, it's not, I think it's just, they went too far with it, got too caught up in the materialism part. But there is definitely a message there. Maybe that's a different conversation. But okay.

So one of the things, I remember John MacArthur was, you know, obviously he outlined why he believes kind of the gift ceased with the apostles. And I believe that also that teaching I think comes out of Dallas theological seminary if I'm not mistaken and dispensational theology, okay?

And the scriptures that he they use to me it didn't kind of it felt like they were kind of trying to make scripture support their premise instead of letting scripture interpret scripture which is what you know I'm very so you're supposed to do.

That's just my opinion because I mean we can go into that but I don't want to touch that but where I believe he was right because you know he said a lot of things where I believe he was right he says where the charismatic movement or the church where we fall danger of and I agree with him was that you're going to you could potentially be that group where you come before Jesus and you say Lord did we not cast out demons do we not heal the sick do we not raise to that.

And then Jesus says I never knew you okay it's going to be a rude awakening for some of us in the charismatic because we're not doing what we're supposed to do and you know the one about the sheep and the goats right the parable the sheep and the goats he's going to separate the sheep and the goats and what was the difference.

He said when I was hungry you didn't first to the one the goat he said when I was hungry you didn't give me anything to eat when I was thirsty didn't give me anything to drink when I was naked and then when I was in prison you didn't come see me or when I was sick you didn't when when did we not do that well what you have not done to the least of these you've not done it into me okay so going back to the ministry to the poor that's an integral part.

And integral part of Christianity if you're not doing that then you know because I've heard some preachers or ministers say well that's just not our ministry you know we our our ministry is more like you know I don't know people that can tie we want we want to you know bring those people you know I don't know I'm I'm doing a little facetious there but but definitely it goes.

It goes back down to the red part of the Bible again with what Jesus is talking about and if you're not doing those things you know we're all going to stand before God when our life is over judgment seat of Christ and given account whether what we did good or bad according to you know our time on dear and that you know and the way we're going to be judged based on the words of God and what Jesus said.

Exactly and honestly that. That's the reason why I go through this process of connecting all of these dots because it's not so much that I'm against the emphasis on the signs, wonders, miracles, etc.

The many of these ministries claim this and maybe they have it, maybe they don't. That's not really my focus. My focus is that the core elements of Christianity, the ones that should be the focus above all else, it seems as though in many of these ministries that are spun off of this movement, they simply ignore the basics, like feeding the poor, like helping the widows, mothers, etc.

There are things that churches should be doing, but because the focus was so significantly placed on power evangelism and in the latter reign, it was power evangelism, it was the same exact framework, but they called it something else.

They advertise signs, wonders, miracles, and it was almost like a circus act. You had advertised it in the newspapers that people are coming to see a miracle. That's basically what it was. The problem with that, for me, is that whenever you attract people using that as your platform instead of, hey, let's gather together and let's help the needy or show people how to love one another, the basics of Christianity.

People have forgotten the basics because of the over-emphasized focus. That's why when I put somebody on the website, people think I'm instantly against them. It's not that at all, but the problem is, the focus is in the wrong place, if that makes any sense.

Right. Yeah, everybody's going to answer to God, that's the thing. Many states that the work that we do is going to be tested in the fire, and then if it burns up, I'm sorry, if it passes through the fire, then whatever comes out, you're going to be rewarded.

But if it burns up, it's going to be like, you're going to make it to heaven, but just like barely escaping the fire. You know, there's exactly where it says that, but I think I'm saying it pretty much correctly there.

Yeah, that's what I'm focused on, man, because I just feel like, yeah, I think the gospel needs to be reprieved in America because it's not Christianity, what's out there, and even what churches are representing.

Yeah, it's like, when you get, okay, a lot of them, maybe they start with good intentions, right? Because, you know, motives are everything, right? Because again, going back to the word, this is actually a puzzle, Paul, but, you know, First Corinthians 13, talks about if you don't have love, you know, it doesn't matter.

I mean, you could have knowledge, you could have, you could give your body, you could be a martyr, you could give your body to the flames. And if it wasn't love, that mounts to the, you can end in even in terms of generosity, give all you have and you possess to the poor, but have not love, that still doesn't count.

So like motivation with God is everything. And love is the central, should be the central motivation for everything that we do. And obviously the glory of God as well, like glory for yourself, right?

You know, for years, I had in my email signature down below my name, even while I was in the message, I had the phrase, if I speak with the tongues of men and angels, I think it's from Corinthians, first Corinthians 13, if I remember correctly, but if I speak with tongues of men and angels and have not charity, which if you understand that passage, it's saying, and I have not loved one for another, I had that as my email tagline because that was, that was the model that I lived my life after.

And I was very surprised because I started noticing, especially towards the end of my time in the cult, just how different the movement was from that single passage. People were so focused on healings and prophecy.

And they'd lost focus of what Christianity truly was meant to be. And then after I left the message cult and started experiencing new churches, it was the same problem just in different ways. I started noticing that people were so caught up in whatever was the agenda.

And yes, they were Christian churches and they taught about Jesus Christ, but for me, just back to the basics, basic understanding of how to love one another, how to help one another, the sense of community that is described in the early church, I just felt like it was, I still feel today, like it's been lost to time.

And part of me wonders if I look back at the history of American Christianity and I think through, you know, these movements like Latin rain and then Charismatics, not that I'm against Charismania, but the focus is in the wrong place.

The focus should be first this, you know, love one another, and then all of the other things. Yeah, and sometimes I wonder these, some of these ministers, I'm not gonna say any names, but, you know, you, they have us, they have a certain persona on the stage, but once you get them off stage, you know, like, how are they, as a human being?

And are they, are they loving their neighbors? Are they? are they even just courteous and kind and um and i've had i've met some that that aren't so i mean like you know coming from california especially something california i've had a lot of i've had some encounters with celebrities so you know there some of that is just kind of like you know if you approach them they were like oh what do you want from me kind of like there there's a little bit of that and um and i get it uh but you know like the ones that can still

get past it and still show uh a generosity and just even just uh just being kind you know that those are the people that you really respect because because you know you understand like you know they they have a certain um you know a lot of a lot of people follow them or or worship them obviously shouldn't be that way it's just especially if you're a minister i mean shouldn't let that get to you obviously have you ever wondered how the pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern pentecostalism transition through the latter reign

charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation you can learn this and more on william branham historical researches website william dash branham dot org on the book's page of the website you can find the compiled research of john collins jarls paisley steven mcgummary john mccannon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like

and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of william branham historical research we want to thank you for your support you know the passage from correntians talking about i can do all of these wonderful things but i have not the basic love one for another have not charity etc depends on your translation of the bible i think that is resonating with a lot of people who are now escaping the new apostolic reformation because they're starting to see that the basic needs of the people are not being met

and instead you've got all of these conventions and all of this this stuff that feels like a business and they're contributing their money to help fund the business basically and not getting anything in return especially the needy i know that there are some ministries that help the needy and poor that's not what i'm saying but the focus has shifted so far from what it should be and i think people are starting to wake up to that and i'm curious so you were former morning star what was your experience like in morning star would you say that they were matching the

you know, the Paul's instructions to the church on how to just basic principles of loving one another, helping one another. Was that your experience whenever you were in Morningstar? I still know, I mean, you kind of said former Morningstar and it's true. I don't really attend there anymore, okay? So that is true, but I still know people there. So I'm a little worried about who's watching here. Okay, so but I think, okay, here's because I'm very careful about judging

because I know I'm not perfect and I don't want to be judged. Okay, so I'm not going to, I don't want to name names, I don't want to say anything. Okay, but I think you can, here's what I think I feel comfortable talking about. So look, if you go to Disneyland or if you go to any deal with any corporate situations, there's usually like a follow-up, right? And they'll say, hey, how was your experience, right? And then so you can be frank about it. So I'm going to approach you from that standpoint, okay? So my experience has been like this. So over the years,

I have followed Rick Joyner over, because he used to have this thing on his website called Work for the Week. And I started following him back in 2000. And this was when I was still in California. And I started every week of a tune-in, Work for the Week. And he was saying some really good things, I gotta say. So he got on the map because of two books that he wrote. There were two trees in the garden and the harvest. Okay, and the harvest was the one that went all over the world. And it's this vision of, you know, the what's going to happen in the end times. Like,

similar to what kind of a, Paul Cain was talking about, you know, and Mike Bickle, the, the Joel's army, the, Jesus coming back for the bride without spot or wrinkle. So, you know, it's this grand vision of what it's going to be. And it just, it went all over the world. And that's how he kind of, and then he became an author, okay? So he became a known author. And then he went on to write the final quest series, which was also criticized by some, but also well received in the charismatic circles, especially in the prophetic circle. And then, so then they bought the, the old Jim Baker

property, the heritage. So remember, you remember Jim Baker, right? Yeah, I didn't know they bought that property. Yep, yep. So when, okay, so... You said you were in your 40s right? So I'm just trying to think if you remember all this kind of stuff. Okay, still I

Think it was 89 on or 87 when when the the the big fall around that time was Jimmy Swagger, Jim Baker with heritage That was like 87, okay, and it was obviously huge embarrassment for the body of Christ and they were on Nightly news and then And I believe Pat Robertson also got involved at the time And then he didn't do anything wrong, but he was just kind of trying to mediate and There was talk with him buying the property and all that, but anyways, it's sad for many years, okay?

so then I'm trying to get my ear straight. I'm not sure exactly it, but somewhere along the way Rick joiner and Morningstar bought that property that was sitting around. It's in Fort Mill, South Carolina Okay, so they bought the old Jim Baker heritage property. So then that became news and then basically He came out on a lot of the shows James Robertson, but he came out on James Robertson's show and kind of fundraising because you know and the message was where It brought the most humiliation and one of the most humiliation to the body of Christ. We're going to restore and

We're going to bring restoration at the place that was the most the point of most the biggest humiliation for the body of Christ before the world and

So that's kind of his Modus apparatus and I agree with it like the restoration part. That's why they call him restoration Rick You know with the whole That what happened that when Mike Bickle and you know, I think it was trying to support his friend. I believe that you know And maybe he didn't realize to the extent of what what he was doing So then he backed off obviously and then there were some guys that really went after him for that and they call him restoration Like and then he tried to obviously restore Todd Bentley out as well from the Lakeland

So I'm not I'm not against that. I agree with it, you know, but The let me see so I'm just trying to okay, so I started attending the conferences because they have conferences every year and then They're very good conference hosts. I will say that you know because they you know He gathers people from all over the world and then you get a chance to meet people and interact and I had a good time every time I came and Then I started to wonder every time I would come because of the I had such a great experience

I would say I wonder if I'm supposed to be here. I wonder if I'm supposed to move here and that's a similar testimony for a lot of people That eventually ends up moving there and I and I did that too. I I moved Over there to the Carolina's during COVID after or like near the end of COVID. That's when I moved So I've been in South Carolina about three years now, okay but the Okay, so again going back to the how was your experience, right? You know the from that approach So when I so I thought I was thinking like hey, this conference atmosphere I could I could be all the time if I move there

it'll be like this all the time and Found out it's not at all so it's completely different and

You know, I again, I have I still have a lot of fiction for rejoiner, but just kind of I Feel like where what's missing And he he admits he doesn't have a pastoral gift and he says says that many times He admits that and I feel like as a local church It failed just from a

Including the people that that that are there and and just kind of help making you feel like you're involved and and And that's kind of that's where my

Disillusionment was you know, like he writes these great things in his books and I think there's a separation between someone who can articulate great ideas and things and then and then the and then the The execution of it or to be a practitioner of these very great things you talk about that. I think that's where the Separation and that's where the you you're not seeing that. I can relate a great deal You know, you probably have heard but I lived in areas from you know from coast to coast I went to all of these different

Message churches and I came back to Jeffersonville later in my life my I guess I was around age 20 And kind of like it was kind of like the stage persona. That's why I use that term stage persona Is all this stage act for all of these people and the expectations didn't match what you got when you moved here And I've talked to other people who moved back here Same experience they they were so caught up in the emotions of what was projected to the people that when they came here and saw the day-to-day life

It was just nothing like they expected so they built you up into this hype which you know some of these movements May have some attributes of the hype, but you can't maintain it 24-7 And so when you go to whatever is the the place where you know you've built up this this excitement for And then you realize that everybody's just living normal lives then suddenly you realize you know this this isn't what I thought it was, and it may be good, it may be bad, but it simply wasn't what I was expecting.

You? Yeah, and I have a really dear friend that still goes there, and he still very much believes, even with all that happened with Chris Reed and all that, he's still entrenched, but for me, and some of it was my fault, because I didn't probably didn't get involved as much as I should, but like, you make a move like that, you know, because they tell you to come.

I mean, like, you go to the conference and say, yeah, you pray about it, you know, we want you to come and join our community and all that, and I go there, and I'm telling you, it got to a point, you know what, if I died, nobody would know, nobody would know that I even came or, and it's kind of like, I mean, so, I mean, you know, again, that's partly, you know, maybe I could have been more proactive in terms of getting involved, but I didn't feel like they're, yeah, they're structure or the way they're set up, they, I don't think

they care. I mean, like, I heard, okay, some of the things that I heard from, like, some of them, I have people, like, one thing I'll give Mike Bick or credit was like, he didn't want people to leave, and he was like, trying to get people to stay, and even using manipulation to do it, but like, on the flip side with Morningstar, it seems like they don't care if you come or stay, and it was like, I don't know what one's worse.

On the one hand, yeah, I mean, like, some of it, obviously Mike Bick, he's got some issues, and then it was a lot of it was, but he wanted people to stay and be like, and then like, but here at Morningstar, in my opinion, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this kind of thing.

I got to be careful, but that's just been my experience, and you know, maybe other people have a better experience. You know, for me, the problem is that the biblical model for ministries, and I'm talking everything from the pastor to even the apostle, the biblical model is not being followed.

Instead, what they want, and what they feed upon is the prestige. They want to feel as though they're prestigious. They want people to have the respect, and in many cases, it's undue respect, and they've lost the basic principles of what the ministries were established to do.

The pastor, for example, is supposed to lead by creating leaders and care for the poor, care for the needy, connect with the people, that kind of thing, not to become some icon. among the people. And the apostles were supposed to carry the message of the gospel to, you know, to foreign lands. And yes, maybe they're doing that with their outreach ministries, etc. But the focus is in the wrong place. The focus is on the human that's doing the, you know, the spreading of the gospel. It's not the gospel itself. And this is further amplified when you

get into these great big mega churches, because we're in a little church, you've got a pastor that can connect with the people. And he understands their basic needs and how to, how to grow them spiritually and physically. But then you get into a mega church and the people, there's so many people you can't even connect with them. So they, they're literally there because of the prestige of the minister, you know, whoever it is. And so the biblical model is being completely ignored.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's kind of like, I remember there was the whole, you remember the whole secret sensitive movement. Prominent was the Rick Warren. And then also I think Willow Creek, right? Bill Hybles. Does that ring a bell? Okay. Well, anyways, they were kind of known for the whole secret sensitive. And they, what they, and they'd be, and they were huge churches, obviously. And then it was because they were, they had this target audience. These are the people who were trying, it was kind of a very much business model. Like you would see in corporate America

in terms of growing your client base. And, but it was to the point of like, they were kind of almost watering down the, the gospel, you know, because they, and the focus was like, obviously the stage with the music. And, you know, people are drawn to crowds. So, you know, they, they want to, they want to be big so that people will come. And, and they were, I think they were definitely effective because otherwise, why would people show up? Because they were, they were probably had a good follow-up and all that kind of stuff. And to a point like, and people were

knocking that because they were saying, well, you're not really preaching the gospel, you know, Jesus sometimes offends, which is true, you know, because he, when he speaks the truth and, and it goes against your lifestyle that it will. But I mean, to me, it got to a point where,

again, just my opinion, I'm not going to lay, I'm not going to say it's even the truth. It's just my experience. I felt like I wish they were a little bit more secret sensitive.

You know, it's interesting. I've studied cults now for, what is it, 12 years. I'm no cult expert. But in my research, I have studied them. And there's always this, as, as the cult leader, the central figure rises to become an authoritarian figure, they, they create a very, very an atmosphere of an us versus them mentality among the group and so you've got the concept of outsiders and you've got the concept of the elite, the elitists of the cult.

And then what happens is not everybody can accept this. So you have people in the movements who are questioning why, why must it be this way? Why is it us versus them? The central figures, there is a process that eliminates those who aren't going to obey and submit to the authority.

And so there's like this calling that happens. They want people to leave that are in this situation and they openly invite them to leave if they won't submit to the authority of the leaders.

So it's almost as if this is by design. I don't know if it's learned or if it just happens naturally, but once you're in a cult and once the central figure becomes authoritarian, there's a calling and they get rid of all of the people who are not going to submit.

Right, right. Well, I mean, okay, so my background, I come from sales, I have a sales background, okay. So I understand the psychology of how to influence people and get people to, you know, I've read a lot of books about and all that.

So there's a thing called takeaway sale that's kind of like where you kind of, at one point, you're kind of like asking people like, please, please, please, and then at one point, you just kind of, in that process, you just kind of take it away and then all those are, hmm, I wonder why he's doing that.

And then you kind of, the person kind of draws towards you. And there is a, there is that side of it. And I think that it is psychology and then, and I feel like that's kind of what Morningstar does a little bit, just kind of the, okay, I'll give you one example.

And again, I'm not trying to knock because I think it's, it comes from a biblical place. So I see why, why he's doing it. So there's, so here's one of the things they do.

I believe it's around July and they call it the month of Sabbath. And what it is is they basically shut down the ministry for a whole month and kind of like we're going to, we're doing it as a Sabbath rest onto the Lord and they're very bold about it.

So we want you to go to other churches during that time, during that whole month, go to other churches. And then in fact, when that month is over, if you feel like the Lord is leading you to go to that church, then go there and stay there.

And we only want you to come back if you, if you feel like you want to be here. Okay. Now, on the face value, that sounds very kind of like very diminute humble and just kind of like very, kind of like very, kind of like very diminute humble and just kind of like very Self-effacing, right, but actually it is kind of a psychological kind of There's a you you're making yourself scarce and you're kind of like we know what we have we know our value So we know you're coming back. So it's kind of like that's again take away sale. Let's take away sale and

I Don't know and I'm not again That there's a big there could be a biblical basis for that too as well, you know because like the tie that's like separating the first 10% To the Lord because you know, you believe that God gave me this job God is giving me the success and blessing So to honor him with the first fruit of the increase. He's gonna bless the 90% You know, that's kind of an instant active faith, you know and that I don't know what your Belief and so on the tie then all that but

And so I see the principle behind it, but I just feel like there's also some There's some manipulation there as well even with that well I have a lot of thoughts about tie that I I probably have mentioned this several times on the podcast, but you know the the biblical model for tithing Tithing was part of the old covenant system and there were a lot of rules that went with it that aren't obeyed today The biggest of which is that the priest gave a Large percentage of the tithing back to the people on the Sabbath days months years year of jubilee and

You're not gonna find too many tith preachers that do this, but in the New Testament model It's more of cheerful giving you know, you give because you want to help the community You want to support the community and then the same problem applies and it's not just what the quote churches You give large amounts of money to the organizations and Then the organizations just consume the money because they they need to grow the church grow the building sometimes Create satellite buildings and groups and they It's more used for the agenda and they've lost the focus again

They have lost the focus on helping the people and we experienced this right after leaving the call we went into a One of the new churches that Preached the cheerful giving they did not preach the tith, but then the problem occurred I started noticing that there were people Very poor very needy in the church one family in particular the mother Could not pay all of the bills and food for the children It was that bad and the church would not lift a finger to help her and so we started paying our Quote ties our cheerful giving we started giving it instead to help this family and I think that's more what it's about

It's not about paying for a massive building or paying outgrowth Ministries and I think this one was starting some new I don't know, it's almost like a divine healing group in their building and it's just wrong, man.

Whenever you're not helping the basic principles of Christianity, helping the people, it is so incredibly wrong. Right, right, right. That's a whole different conversation, right? I agree.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, I was influenced by the word of faith and you know, you, and they talk a lot, but there's the tithes and then there's the beyond the tith, the sacrificial giving, there's alms to the porters, all kinds of different giving.

And they obviously cite Malachi, chapter three, which talks about you bring the whole tith into the storehouse and they say, well, that's the local church, right? So you're supposed to give 10% to the local church.

But yeah, I agree with you. If the church is not doing anything, then I wonder if that's, you know, maybe you gotta go give somewhere else. But like, I think giving is definitely a personal thing between you and the Lord.

And I've never in my life, and I may have been manipulated, who knows? But I don't look back and go, I shouldn't have given that. I don't, I don't look back and think that way.

Because I feel like I, at the moment, I did what I felt like was right before the Lord. And then if that ministry took that money and did something crazy with it or didn't do anything, they're gonna stand before God and they're gonna be judged for what they did with God's people, the money that God's people gave.

So like, you know, it's like that, that's not me. But also, at the same time, I think you need to be wise about, you know, the ministries that you're involved with. And I think you can have access to their public records, right?

As far as like, where the money's going and all that kind of stuff. And I think that's wise to make sure that the ministries that you're giving to are actually doing the things that they said they're doing with it.

Absolutely. You know, if you can't follow the basic principles of Christianity, it does not matter how prestigious you claim to be. Can you really call yourself a Christian? Are you really following the words of Christ?

Are you following what the apostles were saying? If you miss the basic principles and you get caught up in power evangelism, signs, wonders, miracles, and this kind of thing, I just, I simply can't believe that Christianity has evolved into what it is today.

It's a political mass. It's a, it's almost a circus act in many cases. But anyway, I'm glad that you escaped this. And I, you know, I've really enjoyed conversation. If you had some advice.

to give to people who are either in the NAR currently or they're thinking about leaving or have left. What advice would you give to the people? It goes back to, and there's something that is still a journey for me, but what moves me, what motivates me, more than anything else, for whatever time I have left on this earth is that scripture where it talks about we're going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and we're going to give an account of our lives, whether good or bad.

And then so whatever time we have on this earth, 70, 80 years at the most, some people longer. But in light of eternity, that's a very short existence. And if we understand eschatology, I think most people agree after the tribulation and that there's going to be Jesus coming to the earth for the thousand-year reign.

Just even think about the thousand years that we're going to be on the earth after Jesus comes back, that compared to the 70, 80 years. So where we are positionally in that thousand-year reign, and of course beyond that, it's going to be determined on what we do on the earth right now with what we've been given, what we've been responsible for.

So I'm really focused on that. So if you're in some mega church and you're just a pew-sitter and you're not doing the work, that's not going to be an excuse when you stand before God.

And he's going to say, what did you do with your life? Well, I came to church every Sunday and then I went home and caught the Steelers. You know, like that's not an excuse.

I mean, you have to, so I would say really start examining your day-to-day and what are you doing in terms of those scriptures that's in your face and the words of Jesus, like when I was in prison, did you come, didn't come see me?

When I was sick, didn't come to the hospital. When I was poor, when I was hungry, you didn't give me anything to eat. These are the things that determine our status in the next life.

And it's not, it's not works, okay? It's a whole different conversation. Let's be clear, salvation is by grace through faith, not by works, let's any mansion boast, Ephesians 289, and it's the finished work of Calvary, his death, burial, and resurrection, and it's nothing to do with our work.

But I do believe there is a reward system in the life to come based on what we do on the earth. And so that's what I would encourage the people, the viewers out there.

Don't live other people's dreams. Go before God, what do you want me to do? to do. You know, how can I reach my neighbor? How can I reach the people at work that I work with? And that would be my encouragement.

That's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this with us today. Thank you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Automal.