Our Stories: Escape from Christ Gospel Church - With Renee Carlisle

Hello and welcome to another episode of how the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Renee Carlyle, former member of Christ Gospel Church. Renee, it's good to meet you and good to have you on for the podcast. I live within walking distance to the headquarters of Christ Gospel Church. If you're familiar with the Jeffersonville area, it's not far from the Arby's and I'm not far from the Arby's myself and I pass it almost

everywhere I go because I usually go that direction when I'm heading out from the house and I see it over there and it's just so odd to see it now that Bernice Hicks is no longer here but anyway it's good to have you on and to talk about this strange white building that is right by my house. Thank you so much for having me. I had no idea that you were that close to that building and that's 10th Street in Jeffersonville, right? Is that 10th? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's just such an honor. I'm finding that the importance of doing things like this for

me is just the more I can tell my story, the more the last shame that I have for the past and for just all the things that I've gone through and just being able to. It's like I get to process and this is special to me because I get to process with someone who gets it. Not everybody gets it and that is why I was drawn to your podcast. So thank you so much for having me. I do get it and it's a little bit odd because I wasn't in that particular cult but through my research

I guess you have noticed I came across the all of the weird similarities in the Christ gospel church, cult of personality and the William Brannum cult of personality and as I continue to dig I got a tip from a person you may or may not be familiar with but Paul Cain who is well recognized in the New Apostolic Reformation is one of the key figures that bridged the gap between Brannumism and what we call the NAR today and through through the course of his conversations he alerted me to the fact that he was pretty high up in the Brenham church.

So I started digging and I found that it wasn't just that she was in it. I started examining the transcripts that she, you know, her sermons are online. You can go dig a mob.

So I started living through them. And it's like a picture perfect clone of Brannemism and then she had stuff on top of it. So she had all of the manifested sons of God, theology, all of the strange British Israel, Christian identity, all of the weirdness, I did not find much of the racism and the anti-Semitism.

So it looks like there was a separation there, but all of the foundation that she built upon which did include British Israelism, all of that flowed right into her message. Yeah. So one of the things that my husband and I noticed as we begin to deprogram, I guess if that's the word, you would, that's the word we were using.

Is that her, the similarity between her and what do we want to call it, the Madonna's religion, the Jewish mysticism. Right. It's just so, it's just crazy how similar that is and then, you know, she, we found out that she was, there was plagiarism and just a lot of different things that if she was living, she would probably be in prison.

I mean, that's just the bottom line. She would be in prison, it would be shut down. But her passing at 99 somehow kept all that. I don't know how they got by with it.

I don't know how they continue to get by with the things they do. I don't understand it. But one of the things that I have noticed is that people keep coming to it. And that's something that I kind of want to touch on today, but I don't, I don't, not yet.

Later on in the show maybe, because you got to hear my story first as to why I'm so passionate about that piece of it. Exactly. Whenever I began researching branemism, and long before I knew that there was a connection to Higgs, I came across the studies of Jewish mysticism myself and began looking into that.

I'm like, oh my gosh, this is our religion made over. And initially, my mind wanted to stop there because I thought I had found it. This was the smoking gun. But the further I dug, the more I realized that that was just one component of it.

It was a broader scope of mysticism and spiritualism that all of this was built upon. And they used elements of Jewish mysticism in building the pseudo-credit- spiritualist platform that they used, and you may have seen this research, you may not have, but I identified the spiritualist camps that Branum and his mentor Davis went to. So that's where they got, you know, heavily the spiritualism influence, which was a big, big deal in Indiana in the early 20s. So they mixed that. That obviously had elements of Jewish mysticism and other mysticism, Eastern mysticism in it. But the further I dug, the more mysticism I found, and I

finally just came to the conclusion that this did not match Christianity. Yeah. So that was the conclusion we came to as well. It took me to age 30 to start unraveling some of that. I think when you're born into it, you just do what you know. And I'm so grateful for all of the things that were hurtful things in the moment, but those things made me stop and start to analyze some things.

So some of the dysfunction that happened in my life, I'm now so grateful for, if that makes any sense, because had, you know, had these people have treated me kindly, my family kindly, I might still be there because I didn't know any different. And just think of, I think of my life now, and how it was, you know, before I turned 30, and I think how different it is now, and I might not have had any of those experiences had the bad stuff not happen. So I can look back on my story and be like,

as painful as it was, I'm so grateful for certain people, even that are still in the message today. I've thought about writing letters to a couple of people in particular and saying, thank you, but I don't think they would see it the way I do. But just simply because their mess ups and their brokenness opened my eyes. And I don't think it would have any other, in any other way, because I was, it's all I knew. One of the terms that you just mentioned was the message. And I wanted to point out for anyone who is not familiar. My YouTube channel is called Leaving the Message. And in

Branemism, we called the cult the message. And I thought this was some special phrase, you know, and then I come to find out that all of the splinter groups that branched off from Branemism, many of them share the same phrase, they use the message to label themselves. And before Branemism, it was the British Israel message. And you had all these different themes that were called the message that all converged into, uh, Steve Montgomery calls it the converging apostasy.

But you had all of this mess, and they like to call it the message because like mysticism, it sounds very intriguing to use that phrase. Well, there's the XM Christian station that's the message now.

On serious XM, like, should we contact them and tell them that that has already been taken? I think something different is I actually like your radio station, but that's a trigger. No, yeah. So get the message, the crucified way, this is, you know, which in itself, if you know anything about the Bible, just to hone in on just the crucifixion of Christ, and not the resurrection is a little bit weird, right?

What was the point of them dying if he wasn't raised? I mean, I don't know. I could go down. There's a lot of rabbit holes, but I could go down, but I'm gonna try not to do that, but this is a rabbit hole sometimes because it's just so deep.

So, yeah. There's a lot there. So maybe start and tell everybody a little bit about your story of how you came to be in the message and what it was like growing up in it.

So I was born into the message. I am one of five. I'm the youngest of five kids. My parents pastored in Christ gospel. And my dad was at the time, what I thought growing up was like a church starter.

He would go to a town. So my family, backing up my families from Kentucky, Madisonville, early in 10, Dawson Springs, that's, that's, and I was born in Princeton, Kentucky. So that's kind of where my dad first pastored.

He pastored in Granite City, Illinois. He pastored in Knox, Indiana, Hamlet, Indiana, and he did some ministry out in Oklahoma on one of the Native American reservations. And then by the time I was 15, he completely stopped pastoring altogether.

We moved out to Oklahoma. He was not pastoring. He left because of, oh, I don't like using this word, a moral failure on his part, okay? So I don't like that, because I feel like it's in today's world, it's just held so loosely, but you just kind of slapped around when people just really, it's so much more than that.

But anyway, he, my dad, when I, I guess my first dealings with Christ gospel where my first wounding, should I say, came in was when, was the brokenness in my own family. So my dad, pastored in Hamlet.

In the end, and we lived in the basement of that church mind you if you go there it was Sunday school rooms and a kitchen and a bathroom, but that was our living quarters and my mom Moved this 18-year-old girl into our home because she was homeless and My dad left with her and all the money in the church and And my mom and and took this girl and I guess and my dad's in a sporties at this point, okay?

My I came home from school and my sister Met me on the church steps and said dad's gone. He took And he I'm not gonna say your name. He took her with him all the money in the church and I was in third grade and And so here's some of the things that I remember That happened when that when that took place That was a Wednesday night. We still had church My mom passed my mom preached well and Some of the other things that I remember about that time frame was

Sister Hicks never came She sent people that were awful To help my mom, but they were awful. They were not safe people. I

I saw things I shouldn't I shouldn't have seen for sure They held like special church services and Then when my dad finally shows back up and I think and I'm just telling this for my Well, I remember as a child Because my family doesn't talk about this stuff my siblings and I do but my mom and dad don't we don't talk about it with them

There was about a six month period where my dad was kind of in and out of the picture They never removed my mom from that church There was no counseling for my my siblings and I there was Weirdness they had all night prayer meetings mind you I had to get up and go to school and I could hear them upstairs And I don't know what your church services were like but ours were very demonstrative Demonstrous tip there was like chanting They called them lifting up the name of Jesus prayer meetings, but they were midnight prayer meetings

I literally I remember having a teacher pull me aside and ask me if I was sick No, I just didn't get any sleep Because this mayhem was happening, you know above me. So that's my first Experience of just like whoa what's happening and I'm only eight years old, you know, seven, eight, whatever third grade ages. That was me. And my dad was in and out of the picture. One of the key things that I did want to bring up that was really hard for me. And I didn't realize how hard it was until something similar

happened pretty recently in a church that we just recently left. They might have finally came back to stay. Here this whole time, my whole third grade year, basically the rest of it, he was in and out. He was in, I don't know where he went, but he was out of state.

He came home. They had a meeting to vote on what, and the church members got to vote on whether or not to keep my dad as pastor. I just want to pause and let that sink in. He ran off with an eight senior old girl. Took all the money in the church, but they were going to leave it up to the parishioners to decide whether or not they continue. That's crazy. And the problem is whenever you're in those settings where everybody is in the group think, and everybody's looking to the spirit for the answer instead of logic, logically know

this should not be. In many cases, they would leave the person in charge because they're in this group think mindset, and all it takes is a little gentle persuasion from the leader to do that. That is correct. And I remember the passing, you know, those wicker baskets, they used to take up the offering in them. Those were the yes, no ballots. Now mind you, I'm sitting on the front row. The only thing in my mind that I'm able to process at this age is if everybody votes, no, I'm going to lose my dad again. You don't know anything

else. And did you know that everybody, but one person voted yes to keep them one heroic woman stood for truth one. Now, and, and, and this is where I'd like to bring in, um, the witness. Are you familiar with that? I am. I've had a few people now tell me about this process called the witness. The witness room. So all of that was taken taken before the witness committee, um, which too, if we have listeners that don't know what That is, we'll just explain a little bit.

It's a committee of people that, if you were in Christ's gospel, if you wanted to buy a car, if you wanted to buy a house, if you wanted to marry someone, if you wanted to start a business, if you wanted to, I don't know, blow your nose.

You went before this committee, you had to fill out a form, make an appointment, drive to Jeffersonville. If you lived, like we never lived in Jeff until my late teen years, and you had to go before this committee and this group of people, there's usually about four to six people in there, would pray and I don't wanna say in tongues because I don't think that was true tongues,

but they would pray in the spirit and they would see visions over you and they would this and then somebody would have the spirit bear witness or whatever, it's so weird. And then they would tell you yes or no.

And so basically that committee told my mom what to do with my dad, she stayed with him. She stayed with him. So I'm gonna assume that that was the will of God. And it's dangerous.

And it's very dangerous because if you are a 40 something your old man and you desire an 18 year old, that is not just adultery. And I love my father, he knows I love him.

Um, there are more stories that I could tell. I am not affected by it, but my older siblings are of the problems that my dad had beyond adultery.

So I think I've said enough there because it's not my story to tell. Right. That, but that should have been a clue for someone

in authority with some moral fiber to step in and say, this man needs help. So I always say my dad did not get the help he needed.

And that has been one of my rubs. That's been, as I've gotten older and I've been able to process and watch my dad and know a little bit about his story and where he came from, he should have never been pastoring, ever.

That should have never happened. There's just some people it says in the Bible. Only certain ones should, right? Right. I it says it and this is a great example of this and so I later learned that every you know, I always thought he started to just but every place he went He you know wherever you go there. You are right he took this with him and this kept happening and kept happening

The first one that one well the first one I knew if I think it happened before then I just wasn't born yet This this pattern stayed with my dad up until you know

I don't know Way beyond when he quit pastoring and he quit on his own Yeah, they would have put him someplace else because you know what it's about and I have figured this out And it's the hardest thing to say because it makes me sound like a A bitter person, but I'm really not I'm just fully aware now It's about a body in a place to bring money to their cause

It's it's a glorified peer-meeting scheme. Yeah, what some of this is Yeah, I don't know how to say it. Yeah, it really is and I'm glad that you brought up the point in this way because For a long time now I've been trying to think of how best to phrase it and I think I think you have given such a good example that it's the perfect fit We keep seeing over and over and over the same type of thing repeating Not just in the brand of cult not just in Christ's gospel church. We're seated in the apostolic reformation. We see all of these things

Continuing and the problem is there are predators and I get the fact that when you're a victim, you see the predator as the worst Evil known to man But they're humans too in the same way that we're humans and everybody does make mistakes The problem like you said and what I've been trying to think how best to verbalize is that many of those people may not have been such a predator had they gotten the help that they needed but when you're in these these churches with this framework where People are avoiding all of the the red flags and instead the central figure gets the

The ultimate say so as to whether or not we even look at red flags Because all of the checks and balances have been removed now you have people who might have otherwise turned out okay Turning out very very bad Right You're absolutely correct John and I think I think that is one of the things that I struggle with the most is like

You know Everyone has a story And we get to decide whether we are going to stay in that or leave it and you know I work in mental health not I'm not a therapist or anything but I work for support staff in mental health and it's been the best job I've ever had because it has opened my eyes to see what the real world outside of this church bubble looks like and there is an empathy and a compassion that I have now that I lacked because I grew up so religious and I kind of I don't know how you've

been able to process it but for a few years I had quite a critical attitude towards certain things in the church because of the the things that I had been through I wanted things to be a certain way because I didn't want to repeat that I still wanted my walk with God but I did not want to repeat that I don't want to be in a church that is broken or if I start seeing the signs and you always see that they're there right you know when something bad's about to happen in a church here are the signs for those listening the pastor will

start saying inappropriate things from the pulpit spiritual abuse is the key thing to look for that's when you know they're off spiritually and be aware because something's gonna happen it's either gonna be an affair he's gonna take all the money from the church somebody's doing something and it's just a matter of time and I love this statement I wrote it down to share today because it just is so powerful it says the truth does not need support it just needs time and I feel like for me I don't need to prove to anyone that that the way I think about

the message in Christ's gospel is is right it's it's proving itself the fall out is just unreal and the divorce rate the divorce rate in places like this is higher I we have so many people that have they don't go to church at all now they don't want any they're not they don't even believe anymore because of the stuff that they've been exposed to because once you leave this this doctor this cult normal church doesn't do it for you yeah and I don't know if you can kind of relate to that but the emotional for years I struggled with emotion

regulation because of the emotional what I like is a called goose bumps that you got in a church service, right? Where you felt the presence of the Lord and it was all this hype and it's still happening. It's happening in the Bethel circles. It's happening in the all of that. None of that is God. It's not God. I don't know how else to say it. One of the best statements that a pastor made in a church that we went to was the first church we went to when we left the church of our our growing up and I

love that place because I'm so grateful for it. I wish I was still able to be there but we for my husband's job we moved out of state but he said I will never give you something on Sunday that you can't use on Monday and I freaking love that statement and the reason I love it so much is because I spent years in this hype and you know you didn't have a pro off with God unless you were able to cry unless you were able to this or that and you weren't really this it was

all it was such dysregulation of our emotions and it kept us vulnerable. That's the best word that I know how to use. I don't know what it was like where you were from but that that's what the church services like were like in Christ gospel. You would show up the lights were down for the first 30 minutes and I mean pitch black. There was Sister Hicks's organ music was played in every church and that was creepy. It was weird and then weeping and whaling. Picture the wall in Israel the whaling wall that's what it sounded like okay I'm not exaggerating

I wish I was and then the lights came on and then this music that was I don't know how to explain it and dependent on I guess who you were blessed with for worship later but just you know lifting up the name and you I don't know how many times I got in trouble for not going up front and participating. I don't how many times I got taught to have people get in my face why aren't you up there why aren't you going in the prayer line why aren't you doing this and it was all and I'm a teenage girl you know and I and I'm thinking I don't want to

go up there you know and there were times I did there were times I did but I just wasn't I'm just gonna do this because everybody's doing it you know and so there's just so many things I don't even know like I said when I talk to you on the phone it's like the elephant and how do you eat the one bite at a time. And that's what this feels like to me.

Yeah. I was having a conversation recently. In fact, it's in a podcast that will come out soon. We're talking about IHOP. But these cults and trying to deprogram from them. It's like peeling an onion. You peel a layer off and you realize that that layer is really bad. So let's let's clean fast to the layer under it. And then you realize, wait a minute, that one's bad too. You keep peeling and keep peeling. The problem is that many people are very afraid to examine the core.

And in the core is manipulation of all kinds, but the ones that they use the most are those that toy with your emotions. The fear, the anticipation, the hope, they love those things. And so the problem is they build you up into this hype that is focused on whatever is the most pressing emotion that they can fathom. And they bring it to the surface, get everybody together in a group think around that emotion. And people build up to this emotional high. And that emotional high gets very addictive. So people when they're in the groups, they

want that emotional high. Well, when they leave and they go to another church, they're not getting the same. I don't know what what it is dopamine or serotonin. They're dead church. Yeah, it's a dead church. They don't they're not feeling that emotional high. So it's almost like it's an addiction, but it's not I think some some countries have categorized it. Colt addiction syndrome or something like this. It's not really taken on in America, but it's an addiction that can be cured. But the problem is people don't realize that that they're addicted to that emotional high. So when they go to a new church, they just feel like

something's wrong with them inside. And they they stop going. That's the big problem. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and

topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I just remember the first time that I went to this church that I was referring to a while ago where the pastor said I won't give you something on Sunday that you can't use on lunch.

I remember the first time that I stood in a worship service and I get emotional thinking about this because it's so precious to me. And I just listened to the words of the song and I just felt the presence of the Lord and I felt at peace but I wasn't doing a thing.

And for those of us who have grown up in this type of setting, that will mean more. Just the authentic presence of God where you knew you felt it and you knew that he was there and you didn't have to drum it up.

It was organic, it was him, it was personal. And I think how much we miss when we're the one doing all the talking. Yeah. And it's the simple things too. You mentioned being prepared for next week, I'll never forget that feeling when I went to a new church.

They were arming me for the battles to come and you felt a security instead of a inferiority. Whenever you're in the cult churches, they want to make the central figure seem like they are the answer to every problem.

And in doing so, they make everybody feel inferior. So you've got the cult of inferior complexes, right? You go to a normal church and they're empowering you. And just the simple fact of attending a group of people that are empowering you and making you feel like you are prepared is such a big difference than being in a cult.

It's so different. And that being said, this is probably a good time to tell you maybe and kind of share like what happened that caused me to actually be able to break free. I worked in a little preschool there in town in Missouri where we lived.

And God is just so good. He put me around these awesome Christian women who were authentic Christian women. They were normal. That's the best way I know to say it. And they were just normal, God loving people and I was a teacher at preschool and it was so that my kids could go there for free.

And I did that when I have two kids. I did it when both my kids were three to five pre K for both of them. And these women just loved me and accepted me for who I was.

And I was always taught growing up. They never said you couldn't hang out with people outside of CGC, but it was like being in the world, not of the world. And they used the scriptures and basically you look so different you felt.

So different, you really didn't branch outside of your own. And so these women, they invited me to everything, every party and, you know, for their kids. They just, and they accepted who I was and they all knew what church I went to, as well known that that church was weird.

And they loved me anyway. And so, you know, when stuff started falling apart in the church, I would go to work and I would just be a mess. And these women would never say, you need to leave. You're in a cult.

You need to do, they would never do that. They would just love me. And I started, and we started every staff meeting at that preschool with prayer. And I began to see what normal Christianity looked like through these beautiful women.

And I just, I think that's what gave me the confidence that I needed was I got exposure to real Christianity, which is why I will never throw my faith away. I will not throw the baby out of the bathwater.

I don't know what that looks like. Right now, it's ever changing. And I think as we peel back that onion, like you said, it is ever changing and we need to be okay with that.

But I love that God is so faithful to put us in places where he can grow us and form us and shape us into where we need to be and what we need to be doing.

And so, there was an incident that happened that was the final straw for me. And I just remember feeling like

I don't care anymore. This is it. I'm not doing this. So my husband and I were youth pastors. And at this time, we went to the church in Missouri,

Cave Gerardo, Missouri, excuse me, Millersville, Christosville church still exists today. I have been through there, I believe it or not. You have, okay. Yeah. Lovely country. I love it. I love Cave Gerardo and Jackson.

I actually love the people in that church. They're still there. They were good to us. That's the hard part. And I'll talk about that in a minute if you, well, if time allows. But I just remember we took these kids because we were the youth pastors to Indianapolis to a youth rally.

And my kids were little. I have a boy and a girl and they were little. They were nursery age. But, you know, wherever mom and dad went with the youth group, they went. And the kids loved them and, you know, they just, they helped us with them and whatever.

And so we're at this youth rally. And I'm in the nursery because I've got my kids. But everyone else is out. in the sanctuary and they're having this big you know service for these kids and they focused on the rapture and they had this skit of actually cutting someone's head off you know that didn't make it and there was a lot of screaming and a lot of fake blood and a lot of weird stuff and I wound up with more than just my kids in the nursery because some of the kids from our group were freaked out and they come and found me. Ms. Renee can I stay in here with you? Yes you can

and then I was hot when I figured out what was happening because even though I wasn't in the room the nursery was pretty close to the main sanctuary and you could hear it and my kids were like mom what is that and they were freaked out and so this was this was a final straw for me.

I one of the pastors' wives could tell that I was very angry and I was I just did not hide it at all. I just had already been through a bunch of stuff with this church and I was just annoyed as I'll get out and she comes out to me she goes are you okay and I said no no I'm not and she said well what's wrong and I said you know what I said what they're doing out there is wrong and I said if I'm gonna serve God I'm gonna serve Him out of love not out of fear and it was like something

in me it clicked it clicked for me and I was like this is it I don't know what life looks like outside of this but I'm gonna take the risk and once that fear of you know I'm gonna miss it was gone then I was able to really start that process of removing myself and my family and I think watching my own kids go through stuff just was like I remember being terrified at age three and four and five even eight you know my dad's gone these people are up there wailing and carrying on I remember that stuff and I thought I'm not putting my kids through this I don't know what this

looks like for me I don't know what it looks like for us as a family unit but this is this is the end for us and I began to read in the Bible where it says all Dodge judgments and it's in Psalms somewhere I think our judgments of love and I started John I just started to get a piece about

my relationship with God and that this, it's okay. It's okay. You can do something different. God's not gonna strike you dead. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah. You know, I remember not quite to the extreme levels that you're talking about, but shortly before my family escaped the cult, they had this big children's program.

It was supposed to be a Christmas program in which you should be focusing on the birth of Jesus Christ. And I was sitting there looking at all of the nonsense that was going on and the way the kids, you could tell on the facial expressions of the kids that they're like, this just, this feels wrong.

This doesn't, we should be here about Christmas. It should be about Jesus, you know. But instead it was about cult stuff and they were having fake displays of joy and happiness over, oh boy, my present happens to be a sermon from the cult leader.

That kind of weird thing was happening in this Christmas program. And one of the benefits of being a parent is

there's something about a parental relationship with your child that you're able to deflect some of the things that would invade your ability to critically think. And so I'm sitting here and suddenly I'm critically thinking and I'm like, this is nonsense.

This does not make sense. And so you start to wake up and then after leaving, you know, I, the pressure was intense, the feeling that I had for other parents whose kids were growing up in this and I felt sorry for the children.

And so for the sake of the children, you know, this all needs to be turned over. The parents need to wake up and just take their kids out and get them into a normal, healthy life.

And like the case of your father, I have no doubt that there are many people, I know people who have severe issues. And I have no doubt that those same people, if given the help that they needed early on, they would not have had those severe issues.

Right. I think that's one of the hardest things. And then it's, you know, I look at my parents now, there are five of us siblings, one passed away. I have a sister who passed away when she was 10.

I was three, she was hit by a car right there in Jeffersonville, New Albany.

And the story with that was, you know, God picked a flower. I hate that state. Like that just, okay, anyway, I digress. But that, you know, just one of the things that,

and that bothers me is when they make statements. This is another thing. They would make statements like, God's the head over. everything. So I can act like a moron, not me, these people can act like total idiots,

live their life however they want, and then the fallout is just God's will for somebody's life, right? Yeah. That's that was another big thing for me that I was like that's that's really spiritually abusive to lay like blanket statements over people's brokenness and what that does is it just covers it. You know, it's like people say love covers, it does, but that's God's love.

Yeah. I think it's avoiding responsibility. It absolutely is. And so even with my dad, like my mom I love my mother, but she would say you can never go wrong Renee by showing mercy. And I'm like, okay, I think that's a good statement, but there's a time when to protect your own heart or those around you, you know, it's okay to judge the fruit of something. And the Bible says that, you know, that you should. Yeah. And so. And sometimes showing mercy is also merciful to those around you, giving them the protection that they need is also showing mercy. Correct. That's correct. So

one of the things that happened and I will leave names out again, because it's not my story. When I did live there in Jeffersonville, I was, we left Hoffsa and we came back to Jeffersonville.

My parents always wanted to relocate back there. I think because my sister was buried there, that's, you know, the only thing that I, other than the fact that the mothership was there, and that's what we call it, my siblings and I, the mothership was there. So you always want to be back at the mothership, right? So that's where they're at now. And when they first moved back, they, I was 15 years old. I was going into my sophomore year of high school. And I was friends with this girl who, who's, they're still in. Her and I were best friends from like eighth grade till

we probably still would be friends now. She, she's reached out to me a few times on Facebook and stuff. But we went to the same little Christian school together there in Charlestown. It was a little Baptist Christian school. And her dad is a pastor in Christ gospel. He's actually high up now. As sister hits his left, he is, I think he's in charge to be honest.

This girl was sexually assaulted and I met work. I worked at the little psychiatric hospital there, Jeff Hospital. I worked in their dietary. That was my very first job in Jeffersonville and she calls me and she tells me what happened to her like right after it happened. And I practically lived with this family because that was another piece of my story. It was neglect to me. My sister and I just landed the two siblings the closest in the age. My sister is a couple years older than me. Her and I were the only two at home during this

time. Everyone else is like way older and married. But she, this friend of mine calls me and she says, you know, this happened to me and she's obviously devastated. I left work really to the point that I thought I was going to be fired. So I just, I was the dishwasher and I just left everything and just ran to her. I get there. She says, can you, can you stay with me while I tell my parents what happened and I said, absolutely. And she told her mom and dad, her dad was just enraged. Rightfully so. They took her to the hospital. They

did the whole, you know, what they do in a situation like that. I went to the hospital with them. Everything went back. I stayed with her for about two weeks at her house after that.

And helped her move her bed around so that it wasn't facing the same way. Just did all kinds of stuff to support this girl, kept waiting to hear what are we doing about this?

They took it before the witness committee. And these were sister Hicks's words. And I don't know to call her anything else. Be our Hicks. I've never called her that. I don't feel right calling her sister Hicks, but that's what I called it. Vengeance's mind say at the Lord. They did nothing. They did nothing. And that little girl to this day would say that it's her fault. That's awful. She would say that, well, I provoked this person because she let him in her house. She was 15. She was 15. It's like, this is how do you, how do

you even, I don't even have words as you can tell. I just still to the state. I don't have words because, and that girl's still in. She's still there. She's 51. She's my age.

She's still there. And I remember when sister Hicks passed, you know, It put her obituary out, my friend shared it, one of my friends, and um, you know, this story was this legend, you know, has passed away, gone into the arms of Jesus and I just went to barf.

Yeah. I literally did. I'm thinking you evolve people. You know, you weren't hurt, it just shows you the level of abuse that occurred. And that's just the ones, the things I know about. Those are just some of the things that I know about and um, I don't know if you want to hear this story, but my father-in-law and mother-in-law lived there in Jeffersonville.

My father-in-law recently passed away about a year ago and my mother-in-law is very, very much part of that church and my mom and dad, but my mom and dad are shut in, but my mother-in-law is not.

My father-in-law was never, never bought into Christ's gospel, never did, cause problems in their marriage, he all, he left my mother-in-law at one point over it. But she finally wore him down and they left all of their family cause they lived here.

All their kids, all their grandkids were here and she moved to the mothership, she finally got her way, got him there and I guess at the end of his life he, he has stroke, but before that he was going to church with her.

So he passed away and my husband had to go, so this is more recent dealings with the church, this is a year ago, to there and make funeral arrangements. They had the funeral at the church, so the first time I had been back since, you know, age 30 and my husband said when he went to make the arrangements, he had to, him and his mom and his sister had to meet with Beverly.

I guess there's two daughters that sister Hicks has, Beverly and Barbara and they're now heavily involved in the inner workings. You all, they've been left the legacy, you know, whatever. So finding, it's a business, okay?

Yeah. But they had, my husband had to meet with her and her husband. So he said he goes in this room, he said it's so creepy, there's these big velvet, like, chairs that it looks like royal.

he would sit in. This is what they were sitting in. And he said, you know, Beverly sits down and then her husband sits down. And Darrell said he opens up his jacket like this to show Darrell that he's packing. Wow. Yeah. And Darrell's like, well, you came right. It's like a system guy, you know, and the guy's like, I don't know what kind of excuse he made, but Darrell's like, are you kidding me? We're here to make funeral arrangements for my dad. Like, so that's the most recent and dealings with them. And it just still blows the mind. And what I noticed when we

after the funeral and well, the people that showed up at the funeral, everyone's like 80 years old. Maybe it'll just die off. And when they die and, you know, that's the hope. But I don't think so.

I don't think so. Colts live on, unfortunately. No. I wish I could tell all of the stories that I have about the men who were carrying weapons to the other church in Jeffersonville. But I can guarantee you that whenever you saw the people surrounding the pastor, which was my grandfather and including my grandfather, I can tell you that they were very armed. And if you are, I have a concealed carry permit. Anybody who has one and anybody who is accustomed to it, you can pretty well tell who's armed and who's not. And it's very easy to tell when you're around them. But

anyway, thank you so much for doing this. If you had some advice for people who have come out of this thing and are trying to get accustomed to the to the real world, to the normal churches, what advice would you give them? Well, the one thing that comes to mind that just has been true for me and healing for me is that when you've been spiritually abused and you've been in these cult situations and you're so prone to look to man for guidance and connection and affirmation, I think that's very dangerous. And I think if you're going into a new church situation and you

want to be healthy and you want this to be Christ-centered and balanced, you have to do the homework. You have to do your homework. And I don't mean research on them, although that is true.

But you need to know who you are in Christ. Know that God approves of you. And out of that, anything you do has to be out of that. Because I think when we look to And especially those in authority over you if you've been spiritually abused, that is just gonna be your vulnerability.

You have to see that for what it is and that vulnerability will cause you to be spiritually abused again. It will set you up for failure no matter where you go. So that piece has to be taken care of and that's the place I'm at right now, wherever I go next because I'm displaced right now.

My pastor passed away and I'm just, we're just have the, what's new is not safe and it's not okay. So we are sitting ducks until we know where to go next and we're doing our research, but we're also in this place of knowing who we are that God is good with us, that we have heavenly seating in Christ right now according to Ephesians.

And that anything we do is to grow our faith, but it is not because we are looking for someone else to tell us what to do. That's a long answer, but that's what I would say to the person who's coming out.

Know who you are in Christ, know what you bring and know where your direction should come from. It does not come from a church leader. Yeah, they can inspire you in your faith and that's what they're there for is to support you and your journey.

But they are not there to tell you how to live your life. That is for you and God to decide only. There it is. A minister leads by creating leaders, not by creating subordinates.

And that's, that's the biggest difference between a cult and an actual normal healthy church. They're creating leaders, they're empowering people. Thank you so much for doing this. This has been crazy fun talking about this church.

It's right behind me here. I have to tell you one more thing, John. I'm sorry, I forgot to mention this to you. I went to high school in, so in West Hopkins high school in Kentucky, I went and moved in with my aunt after my parents landed in Jeffersonville.

I went to school with three brain, my girls. Oh wow. If we were best friends, we were best friends. Did not know this connection at all, but we were, and we would always talk about the similarities in our faith and be like, wait, I thought, what do you mean the message?

What do you mean the, I forgot to, I was gonna lead with that. I forgot to tell you that. That's not necessarily news for the podcast, but for us. So, yeah. It's very common, it's weird.

We could talk for two hours about that, but the people in the Brandham church don't realize that it's a splinter group whenever they are talking to people with hicks. And the weird irony is, because of the Pentecostal dress code, the Brandhamites see the Hicks people as somewhat holy, but they're missing, they've got the wrong profit.

But the weird, I, is if you're raised and you're in that environment and you see two people who are wearing Pentecostal style wardrobes to a person who's never been in a cult they all look the same but the Hicks people can tell the Brannamites from away from themselves because the styles and the variations of clothing are slightly different and that was the weirdest thing for me realizing that I could identify whenever I saw a woman on a grocery store I could tell if it was a Hicks or a Brannamite just simply by the lace that they used it was so crazy

exactly exactly well this was so much fun thank you for doing this I'm sure listeners are going to really enjoy it so thank you yep thank you so much I'm honored thanks awesome well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at William- Brannam.org for more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon Kindle and soon audible

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