The Myths We Live By - Debunking Religious Theatre - Detangling IHOPKC - Bob Scott

Hello and welcome to another episode. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org. And with me, I have my very special guest, Bob Scott, former co-founder of the Kansas City Fellowship and the author of Some Said They Blundered, breaking my decades of silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.

Bob, it's good to be back, and this is our very Merry Christmas episode. And I see that you're wearing your Santa Claus hat. Oh, ho, ho. You're all red yourself. Look at you. Oh, I know. I've got my red on. I've got a green shirt in there. I should have put that on.

Exactly. So we're in the season. We're in the season. There's so much to talk about and so much to be thankful for. I mean, when we were talking before we started the podcast on what is the agenda, we've got like a million things.

And I just, so yesterday I recorded an episode with Jed that is coming out. I can't remember before or after this one, one of the two. And every time I record with him, we come up with a thousand different things that I want to talk about, some of which I want to talk about with him because of his perspective, son of a prophet.

And then others with you because you're in there with the, you know, the Kansas City Fellowship. So I kind of keep a mental tally as I'm going. Okay, this is a topic for Bob. This is a topic for Jed.

And who can I bring for this other one? And I'm kind of spinning all these plates if you can't imagine. Well, we're in such a wild season right now. You know, I mean, I know we're getting ready to go into the Christmas season.

But I mean, just in terms of the overall Christian community, well, at least a segment of it, I should say, be clear. It's just a segment of it. I mean, we've been through what now we're on our, this is this, you know, December.

And it started in October of last year. So we were like 14 months of just every month. There's another kind of well, for some people, a surprising or shocking piece of news. For some of us who've been through this already, it's sort of like, oh, here we go again.

Yeah, here we go again. Well, I was telling somebody this week that And to phrase it like I see it, we have a segment of the church that's been living in Oz for a very long time, and being told, don't mind the man behind the curtain.

And it's really interested in me culturally, because historically, don't mind the man behind the curtain is where it would have stopped, right? Because of technology and the internet, and it's all suddenly now having a platform of our own, right?

Because before the internet came in, it was the newspapers and magazines or television, right? There was a very small group of people that controlled the narrative. Now because of the fact we all have access technology, we'll call them the little people, the people not in positions of power suddenly have a platform where they're able to tell their stories.

And because of that, the dynamics have changed. So I'm thinking about this in light of, and I could be wrong here, so you have to forgive me if I'm missing a piece here, but I'm thinking this started with IHOP in October of last year.

I could be wrong. There might have been something that predated it, but at least in my world, and I keep hearing people go, well, God's cleaning house, and I keep thinking, well, that sounds great, but in reality, it was one husband who confronted my pickle about his behavior towards his wife, and a group of former IHOP leaders who had the courage to stand up and go, this isn't right.

Right? In other words, it was humans taking responsibility. Now maybe God inspired all this, but it wasn't God doing this. It was human beings going, wait a minute, this thing's out of control. We're living in a fantasy world here, and we got to clean things up.

The reason why this is important is because one man's courage has actually started a whole domino effect. Right. Right? Of other people suddenly going, well, wait a minute, if he had courage, maybe I can too.

Maybe I can too. And so it started this whole string, right, of very unseemly things coming to the surface. Yeah. When I hear one of these guys say, God's cleaning house, I always go back to, this is the religious spiritual mumbo jumbo example of a child who's saying, the devil made me do it.

It's no different man. They're not taking responsibility, but it's even more manipulative than that because If you really think about what they're saying, they're saying that all of this is divinely controlled, and therefore you can ignore this thing that just happened.

It's really, really bad. Ignore that because God's got it all on your control. Well, I'm not going to say that God doesn't have it under control, but they also need to take responsibility. And it's a good way to dodge the responsibility.

Well, I always remind people that if you go back to the Garden of Eden story, God told them, Adam and Eve, I'm going to put you in here, your responsibility to manage it. And I think one of the things that I find, or I differ from a lot of people, I think God's talking a whole lot less and doing a whole lot less than most people in a certain segment of the church think he is.

Right. I think God, in fact, I said to somebody the other day, I said, people think of God's judgment in terms of God proactively, doing something, striking someone down with a sickness or some sort of catastrophe.

I said, I think God's judgment is he does nothing. It's like there's so many examples of parallels between the father and son or daughter relationship and God. And they abuse that because me as a father, I'm not going to totally control every aspect of my son's life.

I want him to learn by himself and how do you learn? You make mistakes and you learn from the mistakes you grow from it. But yet they've dumbed down God where God is so stupid in some of these movements that the stupid and the fake God that they were worshipping doesn't have the ability to control the people and help them grow for themselves.

There's a, you've seen the signs, I guess, the old, old timers used to have it. God helps those who help themselves. That's largely forgotten in these movements. Yeah. Well, I just, you know, as we close out the year, I just want to salute those who had courage because, you know, I know, I mean, you're looking at somebody who 25 years ago sort of had any piphany.

And I didn't have a platform. So I just did what everybody'd been doing for hundreds of years. I just kept silent and walked away. I'm just done with this, right? It only has been since the advent of technology, the internet, all these kind of things, podcasts like we're doing now, we're suddenly someone like me and you have an opportunity or anyone else to actually tell our stories, right?

And go directly to people. That's a little frightening for people who like to be in control. Oh, yeah, you know, you know what I mean? It's whether you're a newspaper, right? Whether you're, you know, TV station or, you know, whatever, when you're seeing, I think we saw this in the last election, right? It was like there was this, there's this whole other medium that suddenly has bypassed some of the historical power bases of our culture and went directly to people. And so it's shifting a lot of things. Well, that's that's the same effect that's happening nationally or culturally

is happening within the Christian community as well. And so we're seeing the result of it. And so I would imagine there's a lot of Christian leaders right now that are probably scared to death.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's kind of funny. I get all kinds of feedback as you can imagine. And some of the feedback I get, it's, it's like a back and forth tug of war because I allow, this platform, I allow people to have voices. And that's really all this is. It's not, I don't want to become some famous figure or anything like that. I always have somebody else on the podcast. And I just tell my experiences. But if you've been in a cult and you have escaped a cult, no matter what stage of escape you're in, I let you talk. And people tell their stories

almost every Friday, right? Well, some of those people are very early in their journey out. And they still have a very, some of them have a very cultish mindset. And I get blasted. I've got emails in my box that I've still got to go through and answer some of these where somebody said, you had so and so on and you can tell they're just still so messed up. Why did you have her on?

Why did you have him on? And they don't understand that this is a process. And not only is it documenting the person in that exact stage so people can see what they were before and after. But it's also giving them a voice. So other people who might be thinking of joining that early stage out, they might hear this and might they might be encouraged to escape.

And then they find their way out. Then they can tell their story and everybody's stories different. You know, and for me, well, I have situations where people are, are, you know, having a crisis of faith over the IHOP thing, right? Yeah. I don't panic about that. I actually think that's healthy.

You know, it's like I said to them, I said, you know, it's like all of the PKs and MKs and all the kids who grew up in Christian homes, right? They get to 18, 19 and 20 and there's always this rebellious stage. And the reason is is because they were brainwashed with information. And I said, he's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but he's not your God. He never has been. Yeah.

Yeah. It was, you know, it was handed down to you. You've never had a personal crisis where you had to find them on your own. Yeah. Well, that's right. So I don't get all unnerved when people say, I'm having a, I'm good. Yeah. And I have people who, in fact, some of the emails that I've had is because Some of the people who I've had on the podcast who've left the cult they are in the same exact state They they's literally some of them have told me explicitly if God looks like that that I had in that cult

I don't want to the God I'm I'll be an atheist and I can't argue with that man That's I all I can say is that the God of the cult is not usually portrayed as the same God that's in the Bible But I came to the conclusion a long time ago that if you can't test your religion if you can't critically think about your religion and Decide to stay with it. You really don't believe anyway So if people can't have a crisis of faith and then come back to the faith Those trying to stop the people from going through the said crisis of faith

I question whether they even believe it because they've not really tested it themselves Everybody who has tested it and they they come through a journey and they start looking at the things that they believe and Understanding what it is they believe and why they would be happy for somebody to test their faith and say Yeah, just just look at it. Here's some points for you to look at topic a topic B topic C But we've come to a place where people try especially if you've been in these cults They try to corral you especially when you're escaping because they want to prophesize you to believe

their Experience with God, but that's not the way it is. It's a personal experience that everybody should have Not something that's dictated to you. Well, I remember in 1990 when John Wimbler called me about coming out to Anaheim and and working with them You know, I was kind of going back and forth in existence Yes, you know something you guys if I got a coach you to come. I'm gonna have to coach you to stay

You got to make up your own mind you got on this Right if you're gonna pack your family up and move out here you got to own this and I think it's the same way It's like there's something in us that wants to default Responsibility for our own decisions right and abdicate and let others do it and what's crazy about is there's a whole lot of people out there That love-making decisions for other people. Yeah, right? It gives them that sense of control that sense of Extraordinaryness or superiority, right and and I mean I see it all the time

There's just a whole lot of people that don't want to deal with the consequences of their own decision So they just simply abdicate. Yeah, and cults are filled with them You know, I mean, it's like if there's a character quality of people that belong to a cult It's typically they don't make up their own decisions Right, right They've their theology their worldviews everything's been handed down to them, right?

It's all been given to them and they're no longer really voices. They're just echoes Right. Well, this is our Christmas episode and we've got so much to be thankful for and so much to talk about.

I've been trying, in my head, I'm trying to figure out how do I even title this, because there's so many topics that we can explore, and each one, I want to have a whole podcast episode with you about.

But the big things right now of the things to be thankful for, a lot of people don't recognize this, and I've had some comments, and I think a couple of emails about it, at the end of every podcast I've done for weeks now, maybe months.

I said, the book is available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Audible. And the problem is, I developed a voice condition. I've not been able to do about one podcast per day if that, and if I'm not doing the podcast, I'm doing actual work.

I have a day job, and if I talk at my day job, I, by the end of the day, whenever I could start recording, I literally had no voice. I sounded like I had learned Gytus.

So I've had to push it off, push it off. Well, as of, I guess it was the end of last week, I started to get my voice back, and I've been recording, I think I'm down to two chapters, and by the time this goes out, it should have been submitted to Amazon.

I don't think it will come out before Christmas, because Amazon takes a while before they process it. But anyway, it will soon be submitted, so that's good news, and I hear you have an audio book on the way as well.

Yeah, that's quite a story there. When the paper back came out, I had quite a few people ask me if I was going to do an audio book, and I kept telling everyone, no, I hadn't any plans of it, but it just, as the months have gone on, more and more people have been asking about it, and I just realized there's so many people on the move, flying, traveling, whatever, that a lot of people just like to put it on in their car or in their headphones.

So anyways, one of the guys that was pushing me is very technology savvy like you, and said, hey, I've got somebody, I've got a company here that'll help you, so I went through the whole process and talking with them, and then I got to the point where I said, okay, so who's going to be the cool voice you've got doing this?

Thinking I need like some really nice English voice. They just stared at me and I were like, what do you mean? I went, well, you know, I mean, it's got to sound good, and they go, not this kind of book, you got to do this.

Yeah, this is your story. I was terrified. No, I mean, partly because I'm ADD, and so sitting there in front of a screen, trying to read sentences, and not sound like I'm a monotone, you know, machine or something.

Anyways, I got through it. Um, and so I'm hopefully it should come out hopefully or the neck, you know, be in a bite time. This hits the airwaves, um, it should be out, but oh my gosh, I was, that's an exhausting experience.

It's a lot of people appreciated that are listening to it. That is not easy to do. No, it's not. And for me, like, even on a good day, my voice doesn't last that long.

I have kind of a deep voice and when I get horse, my, my pitch goes up and you would not want to hear an audio and book of me talking in a high squeaky voice.

So I can tell you that I did whenever I, when I started developing the voice condition, which I've had for weeks, months now, um, I, I experimented with having audible use the AI voices that I've been creating for my videos and just as soon as I got all of the software written to take my book and do all of that, Amazon released their own version of AI that detects if you're using AI and rejects it.

So it got rejected. And then I, I see now they, I think they have like you can use their AI to read your books for you. And I honestly, I'd rather read it myself, but I had to wait for my voice to come back.

So anyway. Well, they're, they're argument, they're argument to me was due to the nature of the book. Yeah. Being so personal. Yeah. That's the only person that could do this is me or it wouldn't come off authentic.

Right. I couldn't argue with that logic, actually, you know what I mean? So I was sort of like back into a corner going, yeah, their logic is actually sound. I just don't want to do this.

Yeah. Anyways, we got her done and, and we'll see how, how it sounds. I've listened to some of it and it's like, wow, it's not bad, you know, but it's just, you know, it was a new experience for me and a little bit terrifying, but I'm glad I did it now.

So hopefully that'll be a blessing for people who travel and, you know, I've got some people that have handicaps that can sit and hold a book and, you know, prefer an honorable. So we'll see where it goes.

Yeah. And the other good, you know, you don't want to hear something funny. Yeah.

The A-star sent me an email going, hey, can we have a copy of your book back in September? Wow. Yeah. So I emailed them back and I said, you don't want, are you sure you want this book?

I go, because it's going to challenge your whole ministry model. Like, it's like, I don't know if you really want to read this, right? So anyways, they said, yeah, so I ended up sending it down there and, of course, I never heard from anyone.

And the next thing I know, this whole thing is blowing up in a big family feud. You know, and it's like, wow, yeah, you know, it's, it's funny. I go deep into the histories of the dark side of Pentecostalism.

I don't really cover the good side very much, because if you want to read the good side, there's a thousand books you can go read. I just want to cover the things that this is what nobody's talking about.

I have had, I can't give their names, I'm bound to secrecy, but I have had some big name organizations or contacts within those organizations. They're very interested in the research because they are making good strides to try to correct their history, and they recognize that there are some bad actors and they want to isolate the bad actors and separate them from the good.

That's a good thing in my opinion, so I don't have anything about Daystar, but if I did, I would gladly give them the book, because that shows a step in the right direction. Well, I think for me, as you were talking about earlier, when I set out to write the book, the thing that I had hoped for, and I kept praying God, I just don't want this thing to be like a salacious gossip book. I really want this to be a book that heals by setting people free.

I wanted to be liberating. It was like a mosaic moment. Let my people go. It's like I wanted people to get the claw. I mean, there's these religious leaders. I mean, this is me kind of giving you imagery that God gives me in my own little kind of weird world, but I see so much of this like a claw. It's like this towelion, right? It gets into people's heads, and it's a claw, and it controls them, and I want it so badly to set people free.

The thing that's just blessed, maybe, on belief, and at points, brings me to tears. It's just the sheer volume of people who are now saying, I am free. I was absolutely driven by this need to be extraordinary to be in time. I call it the four terms that used to use the case. You have apostolic hardcore high level and end times or whatever, right? This driven ness to be extraordinary, right? Which comes from the top down, right? And what I think a lot of people are realizing is that there's this beauty and simplicity, right? They're discovering

friendship with God. Now that there are this intense situation, of hyper-religiousness, this fear that they had that somehow don't never be good enough, the thing that's fascinating to me, and I think I think we'll wait and see, but you know, there's a report.

There's an investigation going on right now around IHOP, right? A third party investigation, which I'm aware right now, there's well over a hundred people that have come forward to tell their stories. And I think it's going to shock a lot of people.

And what you have, what people have to realize is that these are just the sexual abuse stories.

Right, it's way deeper and broader when you start getting into spiritual abuse, you know, I mean, all of this, right? We're just talking, right, I think people are going to be stunned just at the sexual side of this.

I think what happens, and I think, you know, this is something to be fun here to dissect. But one of the things that I see happening, not only on particularly cultic type environments, is that there's a whole culture that's façade.

Right, right? And one of the characteristics I talked about this with some people the other day, is they developed their own vernacular, right? They have their inside the subculture, they have their own terminology.

And so there's a whole way that you, if you're good at with the terminology, right, you can present this image of yourself to other people as though you're somehow this spiritual giant. The thing that I discovered years ago, what you know how it started, it was just kind of funny, is I ended up seeing this study that somebody went back and saw how many children in the Puritan religion were born after people were married like three or four months.

It was a shocking study, right? Because these are the Puritans, these are the holiness people, right? Who basically put their daughters in sacks when they were being dated, you know, with the young man, right, he had to come and see the daughter who was, they were like, put you in a bag, right?

So you wouldn't touch each other. And here there's all this premarital sex going on, right? And I was like, oh, this is kind of odd, right? So then I keep, you know, this is, you know, it's just the breadcrumb meat, right?

It's like, wait a minute, there's something going on here. Then I go to the next holiness movement. Same thing, rampant sexuality, rampant, right? Bump them all the way down the line. And so I had said this to people for years and nobody would listen to me.

I said, you don't understand. I hop is built on top of a giant septic tank.

And they were like, what do you mean? And then I go, you just don't understand what's really going on. I know what... you see on TV. I know what happens when you go to the meetings. I know what happens from the pulpit. I know what the presentation is. I know what the facade is. I know what the image is. I know what everybody perceives this to be. But there's a reality that is underneath all this that will shock you. Yeah. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm curious, you know, you and I've talked about this before with the letter,

or letter rate movement and the rampant homosexuality that was through this thing, right? Right. Right. Right. It's like everywhere you go, where you see these movements that are, who believe they're extraordinary, right? That they're on this higher level of spirituality.

There's the paradox. I actually some of the most twisted and sexual and whatever, right? I mean, it's just, it's really been a head spinner for me. Like it's sort of like a what? Right? That's why I've said to people, you've been living in Oz for years and you don't know, you don't realize it because none of you were total. Yeah. Nine of you were willing to actually pull back the curtain. Very little of what you think is is. Yeah. Well, what's funny, if you study the ancient cultures and like the cults of Bacchus and probably saying that incorrectly,

but they had the theater, the ancient theater, right? And they would invent new mythologies and people would see it and they would adopt it and they would, it would actually become part of their religious mythology. So they're seeing the fiction. They know its fiction and it kind of morphs into their mythology, which is really weird if you think about it. But if you think of the House of Cards that you're talking about, it's really nothing more than a mythology. They have created God's Generals, for example. These are the spiritual elite guys and they're all criminals,

man. Crooks every one of them. And you look at that and you think, what in the world? Why would they want to make a mythology where you're worshipping the dead guys? You know, why not worship the God?

Don't worship the old prophets and apostles, etc. That you've named that or who claimed that they were. But more to the point, you're talking about all of the sexual stuff. And I was just, I was really shocked whenever I started digging because I knew some of it existed. I had, you know, being a Collins. I knew some of the stories I'd overheard some as a child, but I had no idea how widespread it was. And I started looking and I mean, men that I grew up with, I knew and respected. I knew things about them now that, man, I wish I didn't know, because I really

respected those people. And now I'm like, good Lord, what were these people? And why were Why were all of the leadership who were aware that this stuff was going on, why were they willing to continue and still lift these people up?

And I got to thinking about, I'm an architecturally minded person. I want to know how it, how a clock ticks. I want to know what makes it tick. And I started thinking about the structure of their sermons and growing up.

So we're in a Pentecostal holiness sect and all the women have to have long dresses because if you see just a little bit of flesh of their leg, you might cause that man to sin.

That was the weird mythology or the weird religious rules we had. It's the woman's fault. It's the woman's fault, right? But they're preaching this to an audience who are all wearing dresses. They're not preaching it to some crowd of women who are coming in off the streets and they're wearing slacks or heaven forbid shorts.

They're preaching it to women who have this. And they're calling anybody who doesn't do it a prostitute. So the man who are raised up in this, like some of the children, man, you hear the word drilled into your head, prostitute, prostitute, prostitute, prostitute.

And you associate it with seeing the flesh of somebody's leg, which God gave them that leg. Well, then you take your kid to the mall and the mall is your whorehouse, man, because everyone who's dressing normally is a prostitute in your mind.

But more than that, for me, it's like the example of the mother who's baked a tray of cookies. My mother would bake a tray of cookies and she would say, now don't eat these.

We're going to eat them after dinner. And she put them up and that's the last I would hear about it. And so I never thought about the cookies until after we ate dinner. But these preachers, they're constantly drilling you in your head.

They want you to think about it constantly, constantly, constantly. There's these harlots and prostitutes out there. It would be the same thing as if my mom set the cookie tray down and said, don't eat the cookie.

And then I go in the other room and she comes in and reminds me, don't eat that cookie. And every 10 minutes, don't eat that cookie. Well, I'm going to think about the cookie the whole time.

I want to go eat the cookie, man. So you've got all these ministers that are preaching against all different varieties of things. And they're preaching from the negative side instead of the positive. That's the architectural flaw with their sermons.

And they're drilling it into your head where you're constantly thinking about it. And it produces widespread psychological problems, not just with the sex. That's a huge problem, but the problems are very widespread. Many things that you take for granted in a normal church, you can't really look at the same way if you grew up in one of these cults because it is, I had one family member who described it well after they left.

They said, that place was filled with so much. negative energy that I just I couldn't take it anymore. I was I was done with the negativity. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You

can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. See, I have a theory, my theory. We'll throw it out there and see what you think. See, I think when in these environments in the Pentecostal Charismatic World, where you have this sort of celebrity driving the cult or the movement,

right? Well, they create this sort of image of this extraordinary spiritual person who's on this higher plane, right? Who because of their dedication, their sacrifice, their special calling in God, have an intimacy with God that others don't have but want, right? And so it's like, well, if you don't do this, you don't do that and you don't do this and you're, you know, you're all focused on what I want, right? And do it in my way, you're going to find intimacy with God. Well, the problem is, is you don't find intimacy with God with like that. In fact,

the person that's pretending that they do have intimacy with God doesn't have it. Yeah. And so what ends up happening and what I think is that you, we've created this culture, where you'll go to the meeting, you'll go to the event. In other words, when you gather together with people, no one wants to be seen as unspiritual. Everybody wants to be seen as passionate, dedicated, you know, striving, you know, for this state, right? And so there's this whole play, you know, and it means spiritual drama that gets played out where everybody's playing a role of what they think they should be. The problem with that is you cannot sustain that.

No, humanly. So what happens is as you leave that meeting, right, and you're back to you Little old you with all your dysfunctions and pains and whatever, right, and you're lonely Yeah Right, and in other words, you you've gotten caught up into the whole religious culture You're playing the game, but when you put your pill your head on your pillow at night You know who you really are. Yeah And you're not that person, right? I think what that ends up doing is creating then this Desire I think what happens is people then revert back to their humanists

Well, I want intimacy. Well, where am I going to find it? Well, no, they're human being Yeah Right, I don't think it's necessarily that everybody's perverted. I think people are just lonely and are hurting and And feeling less that right in other words, so they reach out for what's tangible But then what it creates is this weird hypocrisy That you don't even realize there's two use right Well, what does that create shame?

Yeah Right, well, what do you do when you're shameful? You go to all the comfort things again Whether that's alcohol drugs sex whatever you know what I'm saying, in other words, it's like in my view We actually create a whole environment that drives people to sin Yeah, well in the end it's you know Back to the you know the theaters of old in the ancient days What they're creating really is a theater everybody has a role everybody has an act It it creates what becomes the cult identity your identity is wrapped up into this mythology that is the stage act

And the interesting thing you can probably I'm actually glad it's you that I'm talking about this through because You can probably identify There are men in positions of leadership and women in some cases Where they start to begin to realize that it's this stage act kind of thing Yet they still Kind of believe that it's religious and so they don't want to fully step away from it But they recognize the stage act Play the theater that they're putting on And so they they lose the kind of disconnect from it. They lose the Really the passion for it

Because they recognize that everything they're doing is some of it's true some of it's a lie And then starts to come this notion that If I carry out this thing that I realize is theater to the people It's bringing them into a holy state. That's what goes through their heads And then in the end the people who are Adopting all of this they have no idea that many of the men and women who are doing this thing don't fully believe what it is they do So they think it is really religious.

So what you end up with at the end of all of this is people are actually adopting the theater, thinking that it is bringing them closer to God as a religious ritual, not recognizing that the whole thing is fake.

Well, again, I can't be too specific here, but I can tell you, because of my Joseph company global consulting business that I've had for 40 years, I've spent a lot of time with guys in the ministry that have fallen.

I mean, typically what happens is I get the guys that are just raw. Like, you know, it's like their lives have just collapsed completely. And so the conversations we have are so graphic and raw and real.

And one of the things that I discovered, which is very quite interesting, is how many of them come going, I'm so relieved. Yeah, it's over. Yeah. Which is really shocking, right? Because you would think that they would be all disappointed, right?

Because they let everyone down and they've lost their million dollar a year, a salary or whatever, right? But the truth of it is, is they've been trapped in a persona for so long, right?

That they can't get out. It's like it becomes a prison. And to your point, every Sunday or every meeting, they're going up there and they're putting on the persona that they know is not them, but they have to do it because one, there's a huge expectation of people sitting in chairs in front of them that need them to be this person, right?

There's a whole organization that's got employees and budgets that need income, right? And so they find themselves trapped in this machine. Yeah. It's a theater. It's a business. Right. Right. And how it starts, so typically what happens is it starts with drinking.

It's, and you'll, you probably, I don't know how much you discovered this in your world, but a lot of these guys got off the stage and went and got drunk. Yeah. Right? I know the names of people.

People will be shocked and I'm not going to give the names, but people would be shocked if they knew who all drank. Right. But which I should say, I should say, I don't have a problem with drinking.

I should qualify that. They went and got drunk. And that's a completely different thing. Well, it's an emphasizing. So here's what's interesting for me is I spent years in the ministry world. Then I spent a decade in the music world.

And guess what? After the show. Same thing's happening. Same thing. Right, and I started putting these two things together, going, wait a minute, all these people that are going out there and putting on this stage persona, right, are living in this weird world, right, where what they're being loved and adored for isn't really them.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And what happens is, and this is the phrase, you see across the moon, loneliness. Right. The profound sense of loneliness. And so for a lot of people, they'll get to a certain point, and they'll self-destruct, because they can't make the choice.

Like, it's like, if they're the ones that go, I'm walking away from this, everybody gets mad, right? In a way, it's like, you're right there. So it's like they self-destruct. It's their only way they feel like they can get out of this world that they've created, this fantasy world, this odds, right?

They're stuck there, and they can't get out. Now, I've seen this for years, because of whatever calling on my life or whatever way God uses me. I just happen to be that guy, but I've been doing the same thing in the business world, the athletic world, the arts and entertainment world, and what you see, it's the same thing, right?

So that's why the church world for me is kind of interesting, because it's like, there's not a whole lot different there than over here. No, there's not. I know it's supposed to be, but it really isn't.

And you see all the same dynamics. So I've always been, I've always, I mean, I know it's a cliche-ish, but the emperor with no close story. I know. It's so fascinating. I mean, this is an ancient story, right?

So what that tells us is, is these dynamics have been in play for millennia. For over, yeah. But you got a whole group of people who are unwilling to tell the emperor he's got no close.

Yeah. And the irony is that if you listen to some of these people who are definitely aware that they have a stage persona that they have created, you'll find that whenever they're ridiculing their opposition, they always go for, and that's a fake religion, that's a fake person.

Because in the back of their head, they know that they are too, and so they want to call out and point focus to somebody else's fake, you know, the facades that they've put out.

My grandfather, you're wearing the Santa Claus hat. I'm struggling not to laugh every time I look at you. Sorry. It's kind of like Santa Claus. Well, growing up in the brand of cults, you were not allowed to have anything to do whatsoever with Santa Claus.

You couldn't have it on your wrapping paper. You couldn't have it on your decorations. None of it. You're not allowed to. Because they wanted to have the righteous indignation that this was a fake.

This Santa Claus is not real, and it's the parents that give you the gifts, and why would I believe something that's false? That was how they presented it. The whole religion, at this point I have debunked almost 98 or 99% of the whole religion.

Right to the prophet guy himself, the whole thing was fake. And Santa Claus was actually a lot more real than this guy, right? They're putting, they're pointing fingers at Santa Claus for it. And I just take a step back, and I look at what was created with Laterane was so messed up.

And many of the men that I have studied who were in it, in leadership positions, were talking Gordon Lindsay, who started Christ for the nation's institute. We're talking the Dimas Chacarion, full gospel businessman, big into Charismania.

He was Cardassians, nephew, great nephew, something like that, all of these guys. They all were aware of the stage personas. I have identified places that they were in with people that they were with, that there's no way that they could not have known that it was fake.

And yet they continue on to present it as though it's real. So they are part of the mythology, the theater that's created. Well for me, so people understand my heart, I had a lot of people that were upset with me because I didn't crucify Mike in my book.

And the reason for that is that in my world for the last 40 years, these are people, human beings, just like you and me, they're broken, men, right? And so yes, they did bad things, but because of my world and the way that I look at them, I don't see, I mean, I know the persona, the stage persona, but I see the broken man.

Right. Now in Mike's case, I'm still weighing things out because I'm not fully sure that he's taken full responsibility yet. I still think he's trying to spin things like they weren't as bad as they really were and everything's over.

I don't think he's grown. But the ones that do, the ones that are truly broken, you know, I have compassion. You know, I mean, it's like, I know how you got here. I know what happened to you.

You got deceived, right? And you became a deceiver in your decision, right? And so it's like, I understand the trap that you get pulled into. And so I hurt for guys like that. That's why they come talk to me because I don't, you know, I'm not railing at them.

I go, I get it. You're broken. You're a human being. Actually, truth be told, you did exactly what humans do in that situation. There's nothing unnatural. Now in the kingdom of God, it may be.

wrong, but it's very human of you. Welcome to humanity. You're not as special and extraordinary as you think you are that you presented to everyone else. You're just as broken as everyone else. You know, and you see that, you know what I mean? It's like, in my world, I've I've sat with some of the most powerful people in the world and they're like little children.

Right? The public persona of these people. Right. And who they are. Right? They got all the same problems. Yeah. So that's what the thing that that's really, and I point this out in the book, because that they're only half of the problem. The other half of the problem is us. Right.

Meaning that we, yes, there's this need in us for heroes. And it's always been there, right? Because you go back to the Greeks and the Romans. You got Hercules and, you know, what's his name from Troy, you know, the Great Warriors. And we got statues of them. All right.

So the whole idea of heroes is not unique to the 21st century, right? Yeah. This is always been there, but this is creeped into the church world. And it's created all kinds of problems because we've got all of us who want these people to be extraordinary. Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why I connected with you so much, because I have for years got blasted for not just totally denouncing people that I grew up with. And we're, I was very close to some other people.

My own grandfather, I can name multiple, not just one, but multiple lives that he totally, totally destroyed. And I feel very sorry. I feel deep compassion for the people whose lives he destroyed. And it was all over false religion that I'm certain my grandfather knew a lot of it was fiction. So, you know, was he a good person? Was he a bad person? Absolutely. He was a bad person.

He did bad things, but he was also my grandfather. And you can, you can apply that to every alcapone. Alcapone had a mother and father who, you know, I don't know if they were alive when he died or not. But if they were, they would have cried because they were his mother and father, Judas, but a mother and father, you know, maybe sisters and brothers, I don't know. But there, there's a human side to it. And you have to really separate a person can do evil things, but it doesn't mean that that person was inherently an evil person. The set of circumstances that

developed and created the life that they were in that drove them to the things they do, sometimes mental health issues, et cetera. All of that plays a factor and you kind of have to separate that from the person.

And you also have to think about the people who were close to them. Some of the people close to them are very good people. And I look at it in a much different way than a lot of people.

I try to take myself personally out of the story and just look at the bigger picture. What created the set of circumstances that made this person do these things that were so awful? And if you look at it like that, you can really understand more deeply why things are the way that they are.

Well, I've been, to be frank, conflicted for years in the church world by this whole culture of religious leaders needing to be extraordinary. Right? And here's why. So back in the 1980s, I was in my office and I had one of these spiritual moments where I thought I heard God, right?

And it was this question, are you strong enough to be weak enough to allow me to be strong in you? Yeah. And I remember sitting there, I was in my 20s going, no, no, no, no, no, God, don't do that.

Like don't embarrass me. Right? And because here I was, I'm up and coming in the ministry in everywhere that I turn around, is this whole thing where I got to be extraordinary, right? I got to stand up on a stage and wow people.

I got to come up with the word from God, right? I have to have this message, right? There's all this pressure, right? And then I start reading Paul's writings, right? Like how about this one?

For I, this is first Corinthians chapter two. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.

My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the spirit's power. So, this is the key, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God.

Yeah, that's huge. I cannot reconcile that verse with modern Pentecostal cares about it. No, you can't, right? And not just, I can't do it. Like I'm looking at this guy and here he is, he's considered the greatest apostle, right?

The guy who's basically given us our theology. Yeah. And he's saying, I show up, I'm weak. I'm not even a good talker. Right. You know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not a very persuasive person.

And I have this one message. And somehow another God shows up and you. See, it's him, not me, it can't be me. Look at me. Look who I am. I'm nothing. Right. Is that not just the antithesis of everything that we know in modern Pentecostal Christianity?

When, you know, it's like the man of God's up there, while in us all. Yeah. Well, it goes even further beyond just the Pentecost one cares, Maddox. I can't tell you how many emails and actually phone conversations that I've had with people who are no longer affiliated with any of the Pentecostal cares mania stuff.

And they're just railing me. They're saying, John, you need to be very, very hard against some of these people who I have on the Friday shows for instance. If they're not living the premiere Christian life that whoever is contacting me thinks they should be living, they said, I need to call them out for that.

And I'm like, no, man, number one is not my place. But that scripture that you mentioned from Paul, that it really sums it up because they have gone so far beyond that, that they think if you don't have what is the current traditional, actually, it's more than that, it's even political now.

If you don't have the political array of sins that you're condemning in somebody, then you must not know the gospel. And Paul is saying, no, just think about the cross. It's really that simple people.

Well, I think of Paul's letter to the Philippians, where he's talking about Jesus and he says, though he existed in the form of God, he humbled himself and took on the form of a servant.

Right. Right? It doesn't say he took on the form of a superstar. Yeah. Famous preacher, right? I mean, he's very clear here. He took on the form of a servant. Yeah. He wasn't a prophet for the age.

So these are things that I wrestle with, right? That's why I've said to people in some ways, I've started going off this whole superstar ministry world and I just love the little pastors in these local churches.

Who are servants? Yeah. Right? Who are just loving on their flocks? You know, caring for their people, not striving for some big international ministry. You know, then how about this one? First Corinthians 13.

This one kills me. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, right? And I'll hope in a costal thing. That doesn't know Holy Spirit speaking, right? All of this signs of spirituality.

But have not love. I'm a ringing, gong, or a clanging symbol. How about this one? If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge. And if I have absolute faces to move mountains, that have not love, I'm nothing.

Yeah. Right? So I ask myself all the time. So where are we focusing on love? like we're all wowed by the prophecies, right? We're all wowed by the speaking of tongues or whatever. We're all wowed by the sensational.

But here, Paul's saying that means nothing compared to loving others, right? It seems like our whole value system is all skewered. Yeah. What's going on right now, it's like there's this, we aren't who we think we are.

Right. The entire movement began with an imbalanced focus. Because if you study the history of Pentecostalism, what did it begin with? You have to speak in tongues, otherwise you don't have the Holy Ghost.

Paul's saying you have to have love. So for me, that was one of the biggest flaws that I saw, not to mean that the whole religion's faults, I'm not to say that, but I can say that their focus was imbalanced.

You know, it's the holiday season now, right? Yeah. And we're celebrating a moment in history where he, who existed in the form of God, humbled himself and took on the form of a servant, but he started as a baby.

Yeah. Right? And it's like, okay. And then that same person grows up in what he demonstrates his love. And John says later, he says, there's no greater love than what? To lay down your life.

Right. Where your brother. So I just think, hopefully I'm hoping that this whole season of disillusionment with the superstar ministry world is gonna bring us back to the roots of our faith, which is a servant's heart that loves others.

Yeah. And thinks of others more highly than himself. Isn't that what Christian was, I mean, unfortunately, we live in a world now where it's, what do I get for Christmas? You know, it's like, even with my kids, you know, it's like bouncing up a towel.

What do I get? What do I get? Instead of, what do I give? Right. Right? What do I give? I just, we're in that season right now. And it's just, I think, hopefully we're in a middle of a course correction and we'll get back to what it really means to be a Christian, a Christ follower.

It'd be the greatest Christmas gift ever. I think so. Well, this has been incredibly fun. I'm still, I still haven't come up with a title for this. So I may let A and I decide the title.

This is our Christmas and everything else episode. So it's two elves rambling, two old guys rambling, one of them who looks like Santa Claus. Exactly. So been incredibly fun. I love you, brother. Well, Merry Christmas to everyone listening.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and I hope, I hope your book comes out before. Christmas, and your audiobook and mine hopefully will come soon after I'm guessing. So, there you go. Merry Christmas to all.

Till the New Year. Till the New Year. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponize Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Available on Amazon, Kindle, and hopefully very soon, audible. Happy Christmas to all of you. Happy Christmas to all of you.

Happy Christmas to you.