Kingdom Economy - Tithing the Poor to Feed the Rich

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Channel Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Channel D Ross, YouTube channel.

Channel it's good to be back and like I said last week, I was so happy that we've got past the... I don't know, the difficult topics and we're getting into some that I think are quite fun and I know if you were raised in this thing and especially if you're an adult in this thing, the topic we have to now today is very painful.

I myself, having wasted, I don't know how many, it's probably in the hundreds of thousands, over a hundred thousand dollars I should say, towards the tithing system, which is what we're talking about today.

I really have no problem giving if it's used for a good cause to help people. In our new churches, you can kind of see where the money comes and goes and they're very open and transparent about it.

But in the cult churches, there is almost no transparency other than you know that it went to the minister, that's about it. And so, I'm very glad to discuss this one today because for me, this is a pain point that I think many people will share.

Where did our money go? Why were we giving it? How were they abusing the pulpit and ways that, you know, that took the money away from the people? But with Hobart and with Branum, there's this weird, strange caveat to the whole thing.

Hobart, you can clearly look at him and you can look at his finances and you can tell there just wasn't a lot of outward usage of the money. I'll say it like that. Same with Branum, you know, small, cheap house.

And I can tell you that Branum spent a lot of money just going around from town to town and the hotel etc. But you've got people who are giving way more money than I think they should.

Many people who need help and aren't getting financial help when they need it. And this whole thing sets up a mess of a podcast. It sounds like you wish you could put in for a refund.

Absolutely, man. Because I can tell you, my money did not go where I thought it was going. Well, I think a person would be an odd person who's not been to church and heard a bunch of teaching on tithing.

And sometimes that turns people off when it's the first time you show up at church and here you've got a big message on tithing. So one thing that, I mean, that is the history of the evangelical church.

The tide and the Old Testament was a tent of the Israelites' family income that they were to return to the Lord. And actually there are passages like in Malachi 3, and sometimes Christian people, evangelical people don't realize this, that they gave way more than 10%.

In Malachi 3, 8, God accused them of robbing him and they said, how, as a nation have we robbed you, Lord, and he said, with your tithes and offerings. So the tide was just a part of what they were responsible for, but because that has been a fixed number, it's been easy for ministers to come and give a message on tithing because it's pretty easy to figure out what 10% of your income is and that's what you need to give back to the church.

Now there's often been discussion on is that gross income or net income, so it just depends on what church you're in, where you fall on that. But we talked last time, or maybe the time before John about Deuteronomy 22-5, the passage that they pull out of the Old Testament for women not being able to wear pants.

And we said, that's a part of the Old Testament law. Well guess what? So is tithing. Here's the issue with tithing. This was a part of the mosaic law incorporated into all of the ceremonial and levitical standards.

And as we said with Deuteronomy 22-5 in the issue of women wearing pants, Paul says in Galatians 3. If you put yourself under any portion of the law, then you're a debtor to keep it all.

And tithing is definitely not something that is taught in the New Testament. It was a part of the mosaic covenant, so my personal belief on that is there's no way that you as a Christian church or minister or person can follow the tithing rule.

And so what spring up back in maybe the mid 20th century, this was probably the very beginning of what I would call the false prosperity gospel. It really, and it really began as a way to boost offerings of these ministers.

And that is what I call the gift to get prosperity message. Based it, the ministers who taught it on the biblical principle of sowing and reaping. You haven't been to church if you haven't heard a message on sowing and reaping.

The minister will tell you if you want to reap a harvest, what do you have to do? You have to plant some seed. And so plant some seed of your money in this ministry if you hope to reap a harvest.

One of the well-known healing evangelists, Oral Roberts, back in the 50s and especially in the 60s, really began to teach this view of prosperity. I think this is really the early origins in the mid 20th century of the false prosperity gospel with his teaching on seed faith.

That's what he actually called it, was seed faith. Plant a seed in the ministry and you will reap a harvest. The bigger the seed, the more plentiful the harvest. If you want your field full of grain, you're going to have to sow a lot of seed.

And I remember Oral Roberts using a verse in Luke's Gospel in Luke 6 and verse 38 where Jesus says, give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, press down, shaken together, running over, whatever measure you meet, it will be measured to you again.

And you haven't been to church if you haven't heard a message on that. And so whenever if we move into maybe the late 60s and into the 70s and we look at the rise, that was probably before the really mega churches that we see today.

But what we saw in that period in American history was evangelists had found a new way to be of an evangelist rather than the revival tent and the sawdust floor. There was a new medium called television.

So they went from evangelist to televangelist. They could reach a lot wider audience out there. And so you had the rise of organizations like CBN, Christian Broadcasting Network with Pat Robertson, Trinity Broadcasting Network with Paul and Jen Crouch.

And then the late comers on the scene in Charlotte, North Carolina, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker that I always call Tammy Baye Faker because I thought that was probably a better name for that little couple.

Their television ministry was called PTL which was supposed to stand for Praise the Lord. We always said it probably stood for Past the Loot because they were raking in hundreds of millions of dollars.

of these televangelists with this gift to get, sewing and reaping. If you want from God, you've got to give to God. They had this stuff down to a science. They copied the Danny Thomas, Jerry Lewis telephones and put on their own Christian, what I call, beggathons, which would last for days or weeks. And they had just like the secular people, they had a bank of operators and telephones behind the person up front and you're supposed to call in your pledge. Call in your pledge during this week's begothon. You know, we are totally dependent on the gifts of all of you loyal, faithful people out there in order to

keep us on the air. They would send out monthly magazines and monthly newsletters. And if you remember, you probably got some of these, John, when you opened it up, it was convenient. There was an envelope in the center of it that would just cause it to open right in the center, it was stapled in the center. And it's what I call the beggars pouch. Because the beggars pouch located right in the center was them begging for your contribution. You know, it's greedy. It was ugly. It doesn't seem like it mirrors anything in real Christianity. It doesn't seem like

it mirrors anything in the New Testament. We just have these people going on the air sending out their magazines with a beggars pouch in the middle of it, begging for money to further the kingdom of God. I just don't see, I just don't see that being biblical and I just see all of the excesses that that led to. So we all know what happened to the bakers and how that empire crumbled. I mean, these types of ministers and ministries, they have homes on East Coast, West Coast and Florida and Monte Carlo. I think the beggars, even, according

to the newspaper reports, had air conditioning installed in their dog houses. That's where this money was going. Now, yes, some of it, I'm sure, was going to spread the gospel. But big is never better in my opinion, big to me is almost always a sign of wrong or bad. But for those people, beggars better. You know, we just need bigger outreach. We need a bigger auditorium. We need to be on more television stations. So it was a huge deal, the gift to get sewing and reaping Luke 638 type of teaching. When Hobart came along, he was influenced

by all of the stuff that was happening in the mid 1900s, whether it was prosperity or healing or deliverance. He was influenced by all of that. But I've often credited him with this because calls up his formal training, because he had some degrees, because he had been a seminary professor and not just toothless, backwards, Kentucky hillbilly, he tried to tone down the craftness of that message.

That message is to me personally, it's very offensive for a minister to stand up, and it's okay if you want to mention a financial need the church has, but we're all adults. We don't have to hear it 20 times.

We can hear it once, we're adults, we got it, we're either going to do something about it by contributing or we're not. This psychology of the begothons that these people put on just basically is aimed at wearing you down and wearing you out and making you feel so guilty if you don't give.

And so at the end of the day, they know they're going to get a lot of money from that. And Hobart tried to tone down just the carnalty of it, make it not appear so selfish.

So I don't really remember Hobart teaching from Luke 638. He actually taught against it and said, the gift to get message is wrong because you are not supposed to give to get, but he had followed that right up by saying, but if you give, you will get.

He would always follow it up with that, but he was trying to tone down that crass element of it. And so I'll read a passage here in Mark 10. This was his go to passage in Mark 10 verses 29 and 30, where the apostles had just said, you know, look, Lord, we have left everything to follow you.

And he said, Verily, I say unto you, there is no man in Hobart with emphasis, no emphasized no man, not just the apostle, but there's no man. And if left, house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, or lands for my sake in the gospels, but he shall receive and hundredfold.

Now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands with persecutions and in the world to come cannot tell you how many messages we all heard on Mark 10.

And Hobart was anticipating what the objection might be. He would say, now, what all the commentary say and all of your denominational churches is that your reward is going to be in the next life.

This is all a heavenly reward promised. And, you know, he had his basis covered, he said, no, no, it's contrasting there. You're going to receive these things in the here and the now, and then eternal life in the life to come.

So whatever Jesus is talking about, Hobart would argue, and this is correct, whatever he was talking about has to be for the here and now, because it is contrasted with the age to come.

And so what you end up with is a 100-fold return message, not just sewing and reaping, plan a seat and get something, but plan a dollar and get a hundred. You have a 100-fold return message. But you know what, as with everything, there's so much hype in these messages, the ministers that delivered them, at least Hobart was. I don't know about his underlings, but he was a pretty skilled communicator. He told a good story. He kept people's attention.

And I think people heard that and just said to themselves, well, yep, that's what the passage says. It says, you'll get a hundred-fold return. So I'm not going to argue with scripture. I'm not going to argue with God. God is always right. But what Hobart never did on this and what I don't think Hobart never did in a day in his life was actually exegyped the passage, the passage in his context, with all the words, with the words that now make up sentences, with the sentences that make up paragraph, take it in his context and then just use some common sense and say, no, wait a minute,

what is this really saying? For Hobart it was if you give up anything for the gospel's sake, like a house, you're going to get a hundred houses in return. Well, I never see that in the book of Acts happening with any of the apostles. I don't see Peter with a hundred villas scattered all around Galilee and Judea and Samaria or Paul who came along later with a house in Rome and one in Athens and one in Ephesus and one in Corinth. Actually, I see them giving up houses and never having their own house again. That's what I actually see happening. So let's slow down. Let's

choose our minds. Let's not get all carried away and cares mania here and say, well, what's going on and what's Hobart missing? Notice one of the things it says that if you give up your wife, how many of those will you get back? A hundred. Well, that's contrary to the rest of the Bible. You're only allowed to have one of those or at least one at a time. You can't have a hundred of them. So come on, you know, that is obviously not what the passage is teaching. So if you gave up a home, no, you are not literally promised that you're going to own a hundred homes. Any more that you're

going to have a hundred wives or a hundred husbands or a hundred fathers or a hundred mothers. I think what it is obviously teaching if we take the passage and then say, how is this worked out in the lives of the early children?

and the apostles. No, a lot of times the ministers, they did not have a home. But what did they have? They had the homes of hundreds of disciples that were available then. Paul would travel around and stay in homes of friends and people that he knew. No, you're not going to have 100 wives or 100 mothers or 100 fathers. But the Christian community spread out all over the Mediterranean was your new family. If you literally lost a wife or a husband or a father for the gospel sake, if that literally happened, you have more than a hundredfold replacement out here in the

whole Christian community. So I think Hobart's teaching on this that your promise to a hundredfold return is absolutely false. It goes right back to that crass, carnal, greedy, ugly way of interpreting that the people that he learned is from told him that if you give something up to God, then you're going to get it back a hundredfold. You know, it's just so problematic because on one hand, you've got the ministers who are driving fleets of Cadillacs and they've got airplanes and they're saying, give me all your money and you'll get more back. Those extremists make it difficult

for the casual person who's sitting in the pew to critically analyze the minister that is doing the same thing on a smaller scale because in both cases, neither one are really following not even the old covenant rules for tithe and they're trying to put you back under the old covenant so that they can get your money. Neither one are doing neither one are actually following biblical rules but what happens is the ministers who are not driving around fleets of Cadillacs and have airplanes, they can say, now we don't believe that nonsense and they'll point to the

extremist and so the casual listener turns off the critical thinking. They don't think about the Bible passages of the Old Testament and you know, if you actually read through the tithing system of the old covenant law, there's not a single minister who would want you to give you, for you to give them a goat or part of your crops. They wouldn't even accept it and they would only accept your money. So the whole thing turns into this big mess that as we continue to unpack it, I think the listeners will probably realize this wasn't a biblical scheme that they created.

No, not at all and if that side of it doesn't work, John, I don't know who else tithe is but we've heard that healings in the atonement, right, quote unquote healing is in the atonement and in some way it is but they never exposited or exegeded in what manner it is.

Holbard also tought that prosperity was in the atonement, in the atonement and here's the passage. Corinthians 8.9. Now just listen to this and see if this is what you really think it's saying. For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, how that though he was rich, yet for your sakes, he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be made rich. If they can find the word poverty, or they can find the word rich, they immediately, in their mind, it jumps to money, you know, greenbacks. And that is not what this verse is talking about.

Christ left all of his riches in glory in heaven and came down here to live a poor lie quote unquote so that we could inherit all of the riches in heaven. But people came along. I don't know if you have ever come across back in the 70s, Charles and Francis Hunter. They were known as the Happy Hunters. He looked like it was a husband and wife, an older couple, they were hilarious.

Up on the stage, he looked like one of the three stooges, one that's totally bald in the middle and has all the hair on the side. He looked like that and she looked like an overweight elderly version of Catherine Coolman with this big flowing gown on. She had gone from size 7, 8, 9 to 10, TNT with this big old flowing gown on that she was wearing. And they just talked all the time about heirs and joint heirs were heirs of God and were joint heirs with Christ.

Another minister who came along that time period was Harold Hill who I think wrote a book I think he wrote a book called Kings Kids or how to live like Kings Kids or something.

So this was this all tied into this same view that look and again if you've if you've been to any Pentecostal church you've heard a sermon on how you're supposed to claim your inheritance.

You're an heir of God. You're a joint heir with Jesus. They'll say, what is Jesus' son? Well, he owns everything. Well then what does that mean? You own. Well then you own everything. And so it goes right into if you want a Cadillac or a palatial home, Jesus owns everything. You are a joint heir with him. So whatever he has, you have. Whatever belongs to him belongs to you. And so they would say you just and you'd say, well, why don't I have it?

They'd say because you haven't claimed your inheritance. That's a popular phrase among all of those people. You need to claim your inheritance. But you know, John, that's not how inheritance is work. When you inherit something, you don't have to claim it. It's just yours. It's just it's passed down to you. You automatically own it and it's sitting right there.

care and it's yours. This whole business of making a claim, again, I think that is more Pentecostal charismatic theology than it is anything that's actually taught in the Bible. I was a part, you know, Hobart came to Memphis. I've told my little testimony of how I was introduced to his message in the spring of 1976. I didn't see him then, but my friends who saw him hook me up with some tapes, also found a little satellite church in Memphis, pastored by a couple named Ken and Rita Hall. Let me tell you this interesting story about

the halls and I will talk about them more in the future. So they were a pastor of a little church in Memphis sat on Sweeney Road, sat right beside Memphis International Airport. You could literally sit in the front of the church parking lot and watch the planes take off and land. And he had come across, he had some training in the background of his life.

I think he had maybe a master's in something from a Baptist seminary, but he and some other friends of his had come across Hobart's teaching and they became kind of a borderline satellite church. Well, one time, let me back up, the halls had moved from another place to Memphis.

They had claimed a farm out in Collierville, put some money down on it and what everybody does because they've read Joshua, they marched around the perimeter just like the children of Israel marched around the walls of Jericho. I mean, they just drag all of this stuff out of the Bible without any legitimacy to it at all and just say, well, because they did that, we're going to do that. And while we march around the farm, after we complete our march, we'll claim its ires and God will give us the $400,000 or whatever we need

to make the balance of the payment. Well, they lost the farm, that didn't work. They rented a little house, they lost that house, they ended up literally with their whole family. They had children living in the back of the church. And the whole time I knew them and went to church there, blessed their heart, they lived in the back of the church. And, you know, I was 17 years old. I can't process all of this. But they told this story. And as I look back, John, all these years later, I understand what they were dealing with.

They were living in such poverty. They were so desperate for anything that one night, they went out to dinner at a nice restaurant. I don't know the occasion, but probably a birthday of one of the other or wedding anniversary. They went out to dinner, which would have been a big deal for them to get to go out to dinner at a nice restaurant. In comes a group, and I don't know which group it was, but it was like an ACDC. It was like a LED Zeppelin.

It was a very famous rock band because they pulled up in several Rolls Royces and so here's my little pastor and his wife Ken and Rita Hall driving I think they had a big climate station wagon and they see these people and they're sitting there at their table and I know what's going through their mind. Here we are serving God, here they are serving the devil and how is it they get to drive a Rolls Royce and we don't. So you know what they did it's based on this we're King's kids. If we are children of the King then why can't we have the best and so you know a Cadillac or

Lincoln Town car shoot no you know why not go big go big or go home so they had claimed a Rolls Royce and it never happened you know obviously it never happened but why isn't we have all of these stories of these ministers who are claiming things and people don't have them as I've said before it's because these ministers have big followings they have a big offering and your normal person sitting in the pew doesn't. How this worked itself out at Faith Assembly with this teaching on claiming your inheritance is you know they did offering and I'm actually okay with a church

not taking up an offering I see a lot of advantages I see a lot of disadvantages passing an offering plate let's say you just gave last week a thousand dollars to the church and you're not you're not going to give me the next four weeks or whatever and now every time the offering plate goes in front of you everybody beside you and behind you notice is well you're a cheap scape you're not giving anything and they don't know you already gave so I see you know benefit in not passing an offering it does put pressure on people to give when maybe they

already have given or maybe they don't want to give anyway they didn't take up an offering they had a box in the back and that's how Holbart received his money was through the offering box in the back but you know what was interesting if you listen to the messages Holbart talked a lot about but we don't take up an offering here well I just trust God for my needs there's a box in the back it's I don't even know it's somewhere I don't even know where it is somewhere back there but there's a box in the back but we don't take up an offering I claim Matthew 633 I live by faith I walk by

faith we don't take up an offering I don't take up an offering we don't take up an offering did I mention we don't take up an offering there's a box in the back is it that kind of taking up an offering to say that all these guys are pretty slick you know these guys are pretty slick you know I did a study one time when I first left the message William Brown can He genuinely said, I never take an offering.

I never take an offering. And I heard preachers preach about it, how he never took an offering. But I clearly remember even while they were preaching that, of him talking about the offering that they had given him.

And so I'm like, why would you preach this man? You know the man just said that he collected it. And I found a recently, I found a audio clip where he's preaching with Franklin Hall, who was the fasting guy.

And Franklin Hall gets out. Apparently they took an offering so many times and it was so common that Franklin Hall introduced William Brannum by saying, what are we gonna start with, brother Brannum? And William Brannum said, well, an offering.

And Franklin Hall said, yep, we're gonna start with some money folks. And I mean, that was how these revivals were. I also found there was this one newspaper article that said, the people of Vandalia were extremely generous to William Brannum.

It took two hefty men to carry out the large boxes of money from his revival. So these guys were just breaking in the money, right? And again, you take the extremists who were making this much money, the average pastor who's in it, who is being able to preach the extra, I'm gonna say anti-biblical, the anti-biblical-tighting rule is that they create.

All they have to do is point to the, these guys who are breaking in lots of money and say, we're not like that. We don't, we don't break in lots of money. And the casual listener who's sitting in the pew doesn't do the math in their head because every 10 people in his church, if they're doing 10% tithe, every 10 people is a salary for this guy.

And the Brannum tabernacle, I think the, I wanna say the health code or the fire code was 500 people. You could have in the building. And many times the building is packed and there are other people who are sitting outside in their cars who walk up to the minister after service and get their tithes.

And the whole system, man, you're talking, there's so much to unpack with what you said. And I'll get on a soapbox if I'm not careful. But there were people who were too poor to give a dollar, but they were doing it because that's part of this anti-biblical-tighting system.

And if you actually study what the Bible says about in the old covenant was tithing, in the new covenant, it's cheerful giving to help the poor. So the people who can afford to give it in, those are the very people for which the whole system was established.

In other words, the people who had money would share it with the people who don't have money. And back in the tithing system, it wasn't, they could care less about a paper note. They, it was more about, do you have enough food to live?

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I could go down another rabbit's hole with that one because you're right. I mean, the priests did live. They were supposed to devote themselves to the service of God, the tabernacle, later the temple, in offering the sacrifices, and there were a lot of priests, and there was a lot of manual labor involved in everything that they did. And so to keep them from having to raise your own crops and tend their own herd, God established it in such a way where the Israelites would share with the priests, you know, part of his bounty. But it was not only with the priests,

it was with the widows, it was with the orphans, it was with the homeless, it was with the foreigners that lived among you. And I'll never forget, if I can just, I don't know how we probably won't get through this one today, John. You and I always have a lot to say, but something that was so meaningful to me, if I could just share a personal testimony in this regard, it happened a while back, a number of years ago, but I had an appointment up in Cincinnati. I'm going somewhere with this, so hold on for a moment. I had an appointment up in Cincinnati. You know, when you go

across the bridge of the Ohio River from Kentucky to Sensi, that's downtown in Cincinnati right there, as soon as you go across the bridge. And then it's just like a bowl of spaghetti with the way all of the interstates go. So I had to get all loop around and loop under. I ended up under one of the interstates and I look over to my right. And it's, by the way, this is in January. It's spitting snow. It is cold. I look over to my right. And there are all these boxes like boxes that refrigerators had come out of, appliance boxes. There was an entire little town or village

there. And I said to the person with me, what in the world is that? And we drove over there to investigate. It was a homeless camp. It was a camp of homeless people. And I literally, I'm in my warm car going to a nice appointment. I got money in my bill fall.

I'm going back home to a nice warm home. That disturbed me so much. I literally broke down and cried right there in the car. I could not believe the life I was living versus the life that you were living.

And I determined, right then and there, I've got to do something about that. No, I can't cure the homeless situation. I don't have enough money, I'm not smart enough to, but I can do whatever Chinno can do.

I can't do with anybody else, but I can do what I can do. I can't, sometimes I got back home. I immediately reached out to, I had to do some searching and I found out in downtown Louisville there was something called the Coalition for the Homeless.

I didn't know anything about homelessness. I mean, I see people that are homeless, but I didn't pay a lot of attention. Well, I have ever since then, because I felt convicted in my own life that, look, Chinno, you have way too much not to share with these people.

And I know people have their own views and they say, don't give them anything, they're just going to go buy cigarettes. If they want to go buy cigarettes, I'm fine with that. They don't have a lot to look forward to.

I'm not here to judge them how they spend their money. I would rather them buy some actual food, some warm food on a cold day. Many times we have taken food, we banded together a group of us or my wife and I.

We just packed our car up and gone to areas where we know there are homeless people and delivered food to them. That way I know they're actually getting a meal and I know people say, well, what good does that do?

You know, they're going to be hungry tomorrow. That's right, but they're not going to be hungry today. You know, I can't take care of the rest of their life. I'm not Bill Gates. You know, I don't have the money or the resources, but I can do whatever I can do.

So when I got a hold of the coalition for the homeless and I would want to say any big city probably has an organization like this. One of the things they really needed and I know I'm really off on a tangent, but not really.

I mean, this is what we Christian people should do because it's sometimes to be honest with you, John. It's hard to know of a church or ministry where you feel comfortable giving your money.

You know, I am not giving my money to a thief. I am not doing it to a deceiver, to a liar. I'm not doing it. So it can be difficult to know how should I how should I express my thanksgiving to God for what he has done for me.

Well, this is a clearly biblical, both old and New Testament way to do something for the homeless. So what the coalition for the homeless really needed were more volunteers to do a count. And here's how that works.

And they try to pick the coldest day, the coldest night of the year in January, the middle of January. And you go and do a bunch of training first of all and what they're needing in order to receive the federal funding that they were...

depend on is they need an accurate count of how many homeless people do we have, let's say in Louisville metropolitan area, because the funds that they get are based on that total number. Well how are you going to go count how many homeless people there are? They've got it down to a system. They pick the coldest night of the year or one of the coldest nights. We all show up as volunteers about midnight. You don't ever leave the facility and there were like 300 of us the last time I did it. We don't ever leave until after midnight. They have it all figured out the

homeless people have a routine and these are the kind of people John who have severe addiction issues, severe mental health issues. You know people who don't have any experience with the homeless would probably naively think, well why don't you just get a little job, pay their first two months apartment for them and they'll be fine. That's not how this works. They can't keep a job.

They don't know how to pay bills. They would never be able to stay in an apartment. So you have to find other ways to go about helping these people and they realize that they're going to stay out and scrounge for food as long as they can and they're going to get up early and start all over again. So we had this small window of opportunity from about one or two a.m. until about five or five thirty in the morning and that was the time that we go out and do our count. The women that

show up are always three to one for the men. So I mean we're in some pretty dangerous areas in metropolitan areas. So every time I've done this it's always been me and I've got three women with me. So we were not supposed to carry weapons. I was always packing because I'm responsible for these three ladies that are with me and it was just the best experience possible to go and look in bushes and you would see abandoned cars and you could tell the windows were fogged up and you go through a lot of training before they send you out and they teach you how to approach

these people not to scare them and not to offend them. You know you're trained not to talk down to them but talk on the same level that you're here as a fellow citizen. You're here as a friend as a brother as a sister. You've got food. You've got clothes. You've got chapstick. I've got band-aids. I got fingernail clippers. I got soap. I got shampoo. I got all the things you need.

I could just ask you a couple of questions and we're wanting to know how long they've been on the streets. We're wanting to know if they have military experience in the background because maybe they've fallen through the VA cracks and things like that and it's just been the best experience I've ever had in my life as far as reaching out to people in a way that maybe the normal average person wouldn't think of. So people are looking for ways to contribute or to help other people. I would say, you know, you have nursing homes, which we do volunteer work

there, especially in a nursing home where you know this person does not have any relative or friend who is coming to visit them. I can't imagine how lonely that would be. I mean, this is how our heart should be as a believer, as a Christian believer, to reach out and do this. So I know I'm way off the subject there, but not really, because this is what the gospel is about. The gospel of Jesus is about loving people, sharing the gospel with them, caring for them, and putting your darn money where your mouth is. And I think that

goes a lot further. I mean, I would much rather do that than put my money in the offering plate of some mega church. It's got 20,000 members there. You know, that that offends me.

That really offends me that whole type of Christianity versus a grassroots Christianity, which is what I see happening in the book of Acts. So there you go for what that's worth.

Well, and to continue the rant that I said I wouldn't do, I get in a lot of trouble because I'm very open about my feelings on tithe. And I'm very open that I really think that churches should be taxed. If the churches were taxed, if you're going to run your church like a business, well, you should be taxed like a business. That's part of the philosophy. But on the other spectrum, on the other spectrum, you've got people who realize that this is a way to skirt around taxes.

And so they can start other entities, other businesses, and all of it if it flows through the church. It's untaxed. So it's really the structure for creating tax evasion. That's all it is. And you find that there are many of the mega church, maybe not all.

Many of them use that to their advantage and they find ways, loopholes, etc. Now you do have some ministers who are very, very good with money and like you're describing. And it does affect them in such a way because you know, they would get a little bit more if the money were taxed.

But whenever we're not talking massive volumes of money, I don't think they're going to notice it that much. But the other thing that they're the thing that I'll say is you as people in the congregation who are in the pews have the ability to correct this as well, not just the taxing system.

Because if you pay attention to where your money goes, if you look around and you see people who are poor who aren't getting money, well, you realize that the pastor's not giving the people who need it the money. Well, you can also give your tides to that person. It doesn't have to bounce through the minister to the person that he would give it to start giving your tides to them.

And you can watch for the financial reports of the church, et cetera, I'm not against people donating to a church that you have to have income to run the church. There's no way around it. But when you see massive amounts of income, well, if you start withholding that income, you're going to see the minister start to expect that he has to step up and be more transparent about his money. If the whole church stops giving him money unless he gives reports, well, he's going to start giving the reports because he's got to keep his pulpit. So you as the congregation have the power to do this.

And I think if this movement had not created this false gospel, it was a false gospel that they ran with. If they had not created that and established a means for these ministers to make a lot of money, none of this would have existed. You look back before all of the latter reign and all of the

signs and wonders miracles type gospel at just the normal churches. You had ministers who wanted to help their congregation. You had congregation who wanted to help the minister have enough money or food, et cetera, to help the churches. So the whole system just turned upside down.

And my point in this rant is you and the congregation have the opportunity to flip it back the right way. Yeah, I'm with you, John. I'm not opposed to giving to a church at all.

The Bible is clear that ministers should be able if they want to to live by their calling as a minister and therefore not have a secondary job. The Bible has many passages that say that. So I'm all in favor of that. I don't know. There's a real healthy balance. We would just like for the minister to be doing his job. And if he's not doing his job and even worse, if he's deceiving people, then he is not worthy to be supported. But that's all up to the church.

The members of that church to determine that. I have served, as you know, as a pastor of several churches in the in the past, in my past life, in my younger days. And my churches were always small.

And we had a box in the back. And the entirety of the money came to me. But the money was so small, there wasn't any way to abuse it because it was barely enough to survive on. So and so I'm not even opposed. If you know, you're a pastor of 20 people or something, all the money can go to you. I'm fine with that. It's just when we get up a little bigger and we have, you know, 400 people in the congregation. Right. Well, of course, way less than that. 200 people in the congregation. And I'm not here to say the numbers. That's for those people in that church

to figure out. But something needs to be done. Something definitely needs to be done right there at that point and I can tell you we're not going to get through with this by far so we'll finish. But let's just follow where we're going right now. I want to say something else about the homeless situation because I'm afraid people might misinterpret. I just think people don't have, let me say it this way, if you don't have professional training and classes, which I do in that area, then don't be too quick to judge how I've decided to handle the homeless situation and here's what I mean, John.

I'll actually have other Christian people with me in the car. My wife and I normally have, especially this time of year, the middle of the winter, we've got food, we've got gloves, we've got hats, scarves, chapstick, fingernail clippers, toothpaste, toothbrush, but we also just have cold hard cash and you see a lot of these people. Now I try to use some discernment if a guy is standing there homeless and he looks like me, healthy, dressed, I'm probably not giving him anything. You just need to go get a job, but you need to do. But you can look at

the people and not always but often determine. I think that person might have more issues and homelessness. They may have some addiction issues, they may have some mental health issues, and so I am happy to roll down the window if I don't have food to give them and give them a $20 deal. Now I've had people in my car though who say, oh, I would never do that. You know they're going straight to the liquor store with that $20. And here's been my response. I said, you know what?

That's that's possible. Maybe it's even likely in some cases. But what else do these people have to look forward to? You know, I have so many things that I enjoy that calls me not to be an alcoholic. I have so many things that I love to do that I'm not going to waste my life in alcoholism. Maybe they're going to go by a carton of cigarettes. I know that's not healthy, but do you know how enjoyable a cigarette is to a person who hasn't had one all day who's a smoker? I mean, it'd be like me having a nice glass of iced tea or something. So that's just

what they choose to spend their money on. Their life is short, their circumstances are dire. Who am I to try to rob them of whatever little tiny, temporary, earthly pleasure it is? They're going to go indulge in and spend that money on.

Yeah, rather than go buy some food, but even if they buy food, they're not going to go buy asparagus and broccoli and carrots. They're not going to go buy anything healthy. They're going to McDonald's or KFC. That's not much better than been cigarettes and alcohol, while there's been money on.

So, you know, I don't tie myself up in a pretzel knot over things like that. I just want to express joy and love and a giving heart, which is what you said. That is what the New Testament teaches.

We're supposed to give cheerfully. And I know in a lot of churches, I've been in, I couldn't give cheerfully. If you make me give, I'd be angry to do it. So, I'm not going to give, because I don't trust the church.

I don't trust the ministry. I don't trust the direction. They're spending all this on this mega cathedral. You know, just build you some little pole barn building. Heat it and cool it where everyone's comfortable.

And let that money be used where it should be used. Not with steeples and stained glass windows and $50,000 pipe ore. Spend it where it should be spent. I'm, you know, as you can tell, I'm an opponent of all that kind of wasting Christianity.

We would have here in our country, as many Christian people as we have, generous Christian people in this country, as many wealthy Christian people as we have in this country, we wouldn't even have some of these societal issues.

If churches had spent their money not on their cathedral and not on their countless programs that they have, if they had spent it where the Bible said, take care of your minister so that he has time to study the word and deliver a good message to you.

And then take care of our widows and our orphans and our homeless and all of these other societal problems that we have. You, if someone could start a movement in this regard, just think where American Christianity would be.

But it's a pipe dream, you know, it's not gonna happen because people are greedy. I'm laughing right now because we have not even touched yet the point that we wanted to touch because both of us have these soap boxes.

And I remember when I left the cult, I went to this one church that they were, they were describing a really good thing. They said that there was a minister and they didn't, I don't think they gave his name, but he showed up at some bar and basically he just wanted to be with the people who were in the bar, get to know him, have a few drinks and then start sharing the gospel with him.

And then he went back. Yeah, when he goes back to his church, didn't he time? When he goes back to his church, they chastised him. And on the flip side, they mentioned another scenario where a minister came in dressed like a homeless person.

And he was, he was the minister, he was a new minister, people didn't recognize him. And he just watched how they were treating him. And people, they, you know, it's, culture. People get into these ruts where you've got to be a certain way, act a certain way, dress a certain way. And I think they lose the reason for the gospel. You know, the gospel wasn't preached to the people who are dressed in their Sunday, go to go to meet and close. You know what I mean? So all of this to say, we've not touched our topic at

all. And it's mostly my fault because I do have these soap boxes. We have, my family has been often on helping our ties goes to help a family who is desperately in need. So we usually, we try to help in that way. Sometimes we do give to the church. But when I left the cult, I started going to different churches. And one of them, not going to give its name people around here call it six flags over Jesus. But we went to, I don't know, six or seven sermons. And they were really good. They were talking about how it was grace filled,

the new, you know, we're in the new covenant. We're not under the old. And he started doing comparisons in the new covenant. It's all about love. And in the old covenant, it was all about rules. And why the, we're not even following these rules anymore. Then on sermon number six, he comes out and totally ignored everything that he had said for the first five sermons and said, today we're going to talk to you about tithes and went into this long thing about how you need to give 10%. I got up and walked out. I didn't even listen to it. But part

of my reason for the rant is a combination of seeing that kind of thing and then knowing where it came from. Because all of this lights, cameras, action, signs, wonders, miracles, things that, that was laterane, carous mania, all of this stuff, all of this together made this mess. And I think it's time that people stand up and correct it. So sorry for the rant. Next time we'll get into the, into the, the actual content of the podcast.

No, you did find John part of that's on me. I, I have a real, have a real aversion to the hypocrisy, the flake and fake that you see in American Christianity. I just can't stand any of that or anything to do with it. And, and, and faith is simply just a microcosm of it saying that we're more important. We're the overcomers. We're 144,000. We're the man child. You just laugh at the hypocrisy of all of that. Well, that's just a microcosm of the hypocrisy and so much of the American church that, yeah, no ministers going to go to

a bar and hang out with some drunks and share the gospel with him. But if you're Jimmy Swagger, you'll go hang out with the call girl. So, you know, you'll definitely go in that direction. But you won't be called dead at a bar. I hate all of that hypocrisy. You just really disturbed.

me, it just really bothers me on a very deep and personal level. I just have a tremendous feeling for the needy out there. And many times the people in the church really aren't the needy. The needy are the people on the outside of the church. And I think we should reach out to them. So I will try to do a better job. Next go around myself.

Well, if nothing else, we got the rants out. So next time we can focus on the content better. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic RepFormation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Soon, Audible.