Leaving IHOPKC for the Gospel: With Kevin and Barbara Sisti - Our Stories

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Siste, former members of IHOP KCE and a lot more, which we'll hopefully get into in the podcast. Kevin, Barbara, it's very good to have you on here.

Thank you very much, John. It'll be here. Awesome. Well maybe if you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourselves and how you got involved in the International House of Prayer. Barb and I have recently been married. Exactly.

She reminded me this morning, 32 months to the day. Congratulations. I was ministering. I had a street ministry in Miami. I ended up meeting Barb through some contacts in ministry and we connected. I ended up going to meet her at I well getting married and meet her at IHOP KCE and that's kind of where it all got started right there. Yeah, and I was already in Kansas City. I actually ended up at IHOP taking a sabbatical from a disciple-making movement ministry where there had been some martyrdom and some things and I just was kind of fried and

so I thought parking at a prayer 24-7 prayer place would be a great place to just kind of fill myself back up and ended up turning in a three-month thinking sabbatical and I ended up staying almost five years and at one point was director of global prayer strategies for about 10 months. But again, I didn't have a history with IHOP personally. I ended up there for other people's recommendations of a good place to just fill back up. It wasn't really on my radar and so my background was in disciple-multipification movements underground house church globally and did some work with some megaturches so

yeah so I ended up working in with the prayer movement and missions was always kind of my bent. So that's where we connected. And that's what we were doing at IHOP. And yeah, we had just been called out.

We felt like from the Lord, things were feeling something was off and Kevin kind of felt it before I did. And I think I was a little bit more entrenched in just there. So yeah, and then everything kind of started to unravel.

As you know, so that. So we have a little bit in common. I also came to the conclusion that we were in a cult before my wife did. And so I had to calmly and casually help help her out of it.

Also, I don't know that I've ever mentioned this in public. But during the, it was from 1990 to 94, I believe it was. We lived in Pittsburgh, Kansas, which is on the other side of the state right across from Joplin, Missouri.

But we were there. I've made trips to Kansas City. So I had a little bit of somewhat connection to the Pentecostal communities through the Brannum cult. And I learned much later that we were right in the hotbed of several different Pentecostal groups.

And I'm actually in contact with some leaders of Pentecostal historians that are from that same vicinity. So there's, Kansas has a long Pentecostal history. And it ties directly to all of this. Absolutely, John.

And I think that when we went to, well, when I went to meet Barbette at IHOP, there was a lot of things about that that have appealed to me. I've been in the assemblies of God for my early days.

I had a massive fall away from the Lord. And he brought me back. But when I was first going there, the idea of prayer and prayer movements, it sounded great to me. So I just kind of jumped in.

And we both did. And we've come to understand from leaving IHOP. And like Barbette said, we left about six months before the scandal actually hit. And then once we actually found out about the scandal, and we found out a little bit sooner than it actually hit.

But once we did find out, we were just shocked. We couldn't believe it. But at the same time, we needed to step away. And this is one thing that we haven't seen from a lot of the people that we've been running with.

We had to step away from ministry for a little while and try to understand, Lord, what just happened here? And what does this fall about? So he brought us what we are still here.

He brought us to Arizona to the desert. Which seems to be the place where he does take people to Understand him to to have some time apart where you can you can just You could take the time that you need to to be able to process all the things that need to be processed with the Lord researching how did we get here and of course you have helped so so greatly with all your videos your books and been able to process through that so that's kind of Where we're at right now and we're starting to come out of that season that desert season and we feel that

We're in a place right now where we want to start speaking Not just about all the things that are wrong out there But there's an alternative to that in Jesus that we want to we just want to point people to him and So that's kind of where we're at right now Well, thank you for doing this it people. I think what you described is something that everybody should do Whenever you realize that you're in something like this take a step back Re-evaluate reprocess because it's hard to know which ways and which The doctrines affected you and in such a way that you're you're taking in doctrines that aren't quite correct

And I've seen time and time again with especially in the random cults the leadership or anybody who has any inclination to minister whenever they realize its faults they dive back in head first not realizing that they still have the same foundation And a lot of times they'll take the cult leader out of the doctrine But still have the doctrine that the cult leader produced which is a huge huge problem I knew I was kind of in my own Rock bottom moment needing to be filled up But my background isn't and a castle. It's actually Missouri Senate Lutheran and God met me in really different ways

So the unique problem I found myself walking through was every time I I would question something or kind of go Hmm, I think that's out of context fiddly. I don't know how that's being applied I very much would I had a joke. I'm like oh, I think my Lutheran roots are showing I'm you know, and I was always that that was I being legalistic or my boundaries to firm And so I you know Kevin and I've talked about it a lot of just Coming to a space where we can look at the Lord and go okay, wait

There were a lot of red flags that for some of it was you know, just what I'm learning is How it's fun to to make you you know believe that what your questions aren't right?

I tend to be pretty vocal and I always have been in the church Specifically, I've been a lot of leadership, but Bigger than that for me was I was a director on staff for about ten months And so I wanted to sit with the Lord and go, okay, what's my culpability?

What did I miss? What was I perpetuating that was not of you from a place of repentance and fasting? Not just feeling like I was duped and believing lies and unpacking what that was about, but also what was I perpetuating that? What apologies that I need to go back to people and say, I'm sorry, there's a whole university there. I had about several young, beautiful, vibrant women that I had to go back and go, wait, was I perpetuating something that wasn't of the Lord in a discipleship role? So that was part of it, too, of just all the layers of that.

And I think that's what I'm seeing that's frustrating to me personally is a lot of people who are perpetuating the narrative that is not biblical, either haven't done due diligence to own their own stake in, hey, I was doing that, too, and I need to repent and I need to apologize and ask for forgiveness, like the Bible teaches, and also people who are just the tendency to want to water it down or, you know, I don't have any culpability because I was duped, too. It's like, yeah, that's, that's not real. I think that, you know, I, we are proud to read our own Bible

and to the degree that I let other people spoon feed me as a problem, and I need to, you know, get right with the Lord myself. And so I think that's what we've been trying to do, too.

Yeah, after I left, I went through the process of going through my head thinking, who all have I offended with this stuff and who all can I apologize to and I realize that I have a mountain of people and there's not much that I can do other than this podcast. So that's, you know, there's many reasons why I'm doing it, but that's one of the reasons why because I wasn't, I wasn't a good person when I was in this. I was in an elitist cult, and I acted just as though just in the way that

they had trained me to act. Yeah, and I think that's the, that's the bigger issue here, bigger than I have is that we were able to, when we step back from, from ministry, we were able to really get in the word and do research and ask the Lord really the question of, you know, how did, how did we get here? And I think what, what we both learn being in the desert is that number, number one, we're, we're in this world, we're not out of this world, we're pilgrims walking a road. The second thing we learned about was, was God's sovereignty and, and how that affects

everything of, of what we believe, because you, you have one side thing, everything's through human agency and, And we just really believe that God is sovereign. And then how we see Jesus, we see Him as the, as the suffering servant who came to, to serve in that beast or who gave it a humble manger and died of death for us.

And that's how we see Jesus. And we think that's how the Bible portrays him. And we've got a lot of our friends that see it as a cultural mandate. And that's reinterpreted through the great commission.

And so therefore we've got to take the dominion of the, of the world. So we're, we're, we're, while God has shared that with us and we really feel that that's what the Bible says, we're, we're faced with the fact that we have a lot of our, our friends and colleagues that are going in a far different direction than us.

And we, we feel our obligation is to go to them personally and we have, we have been doing that. And some will, we'll listen and, and some won't. So, so there's been a bit of frustration with this, it's great that we feel that we know, you know, how this was parsed out in the last year as far as biblically and how we got here and all of that.

The problem is people don't seem to be listening. Yeah, it's hard. Once you've been conditioned with that mindset, it's really hard to change. We were, I was just recording right before this episode with Bob Scott and we were talking pretty much exactly what you were talking about.

The biblical model for Christianity doesn't at all match what is being presented. It isn't supposed to be an authoritarian hierarchy and the seven mountain mandates, et cetera. If you just look at Matthew, what is it, Matthew 20 where Jesus says, the way to become great is to become the least among you.

And that's not the model that's being presented by these cults. The difference of, of this idea, the manifest sons of God and, and this super special elite, tiny group of people who have all the new knowledge and, and I think what's been so confusing for me watching this is, is coming out of like disciple multiplication movements and, I was on staff at Saddleback Church for a while and I do a lot of work still of leaders there and we still do a lot of consulting in different streams of ministry.

With our uniquely converging around some really scary issues, frankly, that are not biblical. And, and so we've been watching it kind of get bigger. And I told Kevin for probably 15 years. I've, I've had some uneasiness in my heart of just like, I don't know, something's not right, something's off.

And what we were talking about just even this last week is the idea of even the, the bridegroom paradigm. And that idea that when you extract one attribute in the Bible and make it the lens and the paradigm with which you look through everything, it warps everything else.

And so I told Kevin, I'm watching it with even some of the multiplication emphasis and the DMM movement where it has to be multiplication or it can't be God or where it's the prayer movement itself.

I love prayer. I've been part of it, but there's a bigger lens than just the prayer movement. So if you just filter it through that. And the difference, the very real difference between being on mission as a nurse or a banker or at my home as a as a stay at home mom versus Christianizing my workplace in this moral law.

There's just so much out there right now. And I think what I discovered in at my naivete. I didn't realize we were I was often having two conversations with people that colleagues that I I dearly loved and I thought we had the same definition of what is it means that, you know, to pray for every sphere of society. Why would that ever be bad?

It's like, well, except for I'm not talking about taking it over for for Jesus. I think that's appalling and and and arrogant in the worst possible way. And so we've been kind of unpacking conversations we've had and we've had some really painful ones with really dear friends and colleagues that have, you know, gone very, very differently than I thought they would.

So it's been an interesting season. I remember that feeling exactly because we started I started getting into some Bible studies and men's group, etc. when we left the call to we would I would have entire in depth conversations with people.

But because the framework had been laid so false in my head, we would we would be talking in two different directions, thinking that we were talking on the same page. And then I'd leave and I would think he's in agreement with me and I'd learn later. No, he's the opposite of what I was saying and it took me a while to realize that I had to start from square one had to take everything that I knew, wash it out of my head.

I've mentioned this a few times. I read the Bible cover to cover like 10, 15 times a lost count just to try to wash that nonsense out of my head. I remember the moment it hit me I was I was in the process I don't know how many times maybe five times through I was in the process and I was reading one chapter from I think it was the book of Luke and I was reading it and oh my gosh this says the exact opposite of what I thought it said.

So I went back and I started at the beginning of Luke because I wanted in context so read it again and good Lord man you read it in context. and it's completely different than what we were taught.

And so then I had to go back and have those conversations again with people because I was so far off base that I had no clue what they were saying to me. Yeah, absolutely.

It's funny that the two conversation thing, we've had to, in our conversations with people, I've had to literally stop in the middle of the conversation because I'm starting to recognize that we're both not saying the same thing.

And if I had to stop in the middle and say, excuse me, no, hold on a second. What I'm saying is this. And then sometimes that's offensive, but still, it almost has to happen that way because I'm talking about something totally different than what you're talking about.

Right. I don't think it's okay to step on the neck of the one to get to the 99. I don't think that's biblical. I don't think that's who Jesus is. No. You know, and I, Kevin and I went to a meeting recently and he primed to me on the way and he said, I, Barb, I don't think I just want to prepare you for the fact that it's probably, you think that this is maybe like if you just explain it one more time and you explain it well that he's going to hear and go, oh, I didn't realize.

And he said, I just want you to know that you might need to be prepared that he's intentionally manipulating people and he's very comfortable with it. And he knows exactly what he's doing. And through the course of the meeting, that is exactly what was happening.

And I think to me, part of my desert experience literally has been, okay, there are people that are intentionally, someone recently told us that they use fear, anger, and sadness to manipulate people off high center because people need to hear that militant language or they'll get stuck.

And I said, I don't think that these manipulates people ever, that's not Jesus. And further, I don't think Christian G-Hod is the aim of us, Jesus lets us choose to love him or not.

And I'm devastated when people don't, but that's not mine. And so that's what increasingly I told Kevin, we need to start when we're talking people about, hey, we need to preach the gospel and everybody's nodding along.

Now we need to talk about, this is what we mean by the gospel. This is the Bible gospel. And it's done a new day for me. I'm just, oh, wow, like, okay, there's so much, that's being done that's intentionally misleading, manipulative or destructive, that even assuming that people who profess to be Christian understand what the gospel is, is, I feel like some, into some case, we're like in a, in a developing nation where people haven't even understood, we have to back it all the way up.

So. It's so hard because this is so widespread, that it's not Christianity, but they're using the name Jesus, they're using the word Christianity, but this is something else entirely. It's not a Christian movement.

And it's spread so wide and far that it's influencing people through these television programs obviously from the mega churches, the conventions. So people go to these things and they're hearing this other religion that they're calling Christianity.

And then they go practice it. And what they're practicing isn't Christianity. And like you said, the gospel, I never heard the gospel for 37 years of my life. I heard it the first time after I left the call.

But if you were to have asked me during those 37 years, if I know the gospel, I'd say absolutely. I'm a Christian, I know the gospel. And I would try to explain. And I've had the conversation with people.

They kind of scratched their head and thought maybe I knew what I was talking about, but I had no clue. All I knew was in this type of movement, the gospel is the power and the gospel is the, the word authority is used sometimes.

It's various different meanings of what is gospel, but literally it means that you're the elite who is going to be raptured away from all of this world and you're going to walk out on there's ashes because they did not follow the cult doctrine.

And we were trained to think that that's a good thing that people are burning in hell. And that's not where Christianity is. We want to help those people. We don't want to crush their skulls, you know?

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that I'm seeing through a lot of the kingdom now, the dominion-like movement out there, the apostolic prophetic movement is the idea that it is another gospel.

And I think we need to start actually saying that. If you take away from the gospel or if you add to it, you're creating another paradigm, another gospel. And that breaks my heart because a lot of the people that you were just referring to that are a part of these movements.

It definitely is a form of godliness. And even though they may talk about the word power, it's not the power of God into salvation. And that's where power, it's the power to save. And so as we're looking at it and we're seeing it, it's like you said, John, it's crept its way into all the streams.

No matter if you look at missions, movements out there today and what we're exporting here in America to obviously church organizations, so on and so forth. It has basically reached out into all of that, and so we end up in sometimes conferences that we'll go to when we can not go to them anymore, but at any rate, and you're again with a group of people who you think are all following Jesus, but their idea of getting the gospel out there is christianization of the world through politics, through community transformation, whatever it may be. And once again, we have the two conversations going

on, and we're saying one thing, we're talking, no, it's just Jesus in the gospel. And they're like, well, no, it's a little bit more than that. We want to, we want to christianize, we want to want to get the world to adhere to our standards. And so it's a bit of a mess. Well, that's not ours. I mean, I think that's, there's so many things I look at the fruit of the spirit. And then I look at my own life, and I start with my own character in my heart. And I, you know, when I, when I really think about how unworthy

I am and who God is, God doesn't need us. He doesn't need me to do anything I've never saved anybody. I've never, this, that's not mine. But, but what I want to do is I have been in a lot of countries where people have never heard the name Jesus. And I've seen a lot of devastation. And it's appalling and awful that there are people on the planet that have never heard the name of Jesus. And they don't know the gospel. What's worse though is the Western, a lot of the Western mindset where we're mixing religion and politics

and, you know, especially in the United States, this, this ideology of the American dream, it's become this Americanized gospel. And it's, it's scary. And I, I love this country and I'm grateful for so much that it affords me. But I also, I, you know, I always say to people, Jesus is, you know, not a white American. And I, I think he died for everyone. And I think what's scariest to me is I see a super, this group of people who are, I've seen the fruit of being okay with, with building their own personal legacies and building their

own ministries and amassing money. And if their family suffers, that's whatever. If, if, if, you know, it's a little illegal with the money laundering and whatever. And I think as a church, I've been really, really appalled that we are as cheap even okay with some of the things that are happening. I think what was It's confusing for me as somebody who didn't have a background.

I'd never heard of Paul Kane or William Brannon or Bob Jones. I did not know who these people were. So when people were on stage talking about them, I would hear things like, well, he fell at the end, but William Brannon, not one of his words, fell to the ground.

His prophecy was, you know, and so then I told Kevin later, as we started researching, I'm like, first of all, I need to repent because I didn't do due diligence. I didn't look any of these people up.

But when I did, I feel kind of how scary it is. It's just right there. Like you don't have to dig very far to see Moravia be a total appalling place. And some of the stuff that's been perpetuated and I said that to somebody I remember, and I hop about, you know, William Brannon, I said, I'd never heard of him.

I said, what does it mean that he didn't end well, but none of his words fail? I said, how do those two go together? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, if you look at scripture, if it's the fruit that we're supposed to have is the fruit of the spirit.

Exactly. So if you don't have that and you're a liar, then you cannot also be a prophet. Like those are diametrically opposed. Yeah. And so it was very interesting. Keeping the sheep in the dark is a problem.

But also as a sheep, it's our job to be in our word voraciously and all the time. And it's this constant communication. And I am, I'm capable for not doing due diligence on my own behalf.

But if he put me in front of people and I'm now teething people and leading, which is I've done both we have. And more bivocally, culpable. And so I think that's it where we're trying to focus.

Okay, Lord, help us to be fruitful people that our fruit is not gross, you know, really hits turned into a modern Spanish inquisition. It's a silence culture. In fact, Adam and I have a podcast.

I think it comes out before this one. We're talking about the silence culture, but they are wanting to conquer the, they want Christianity to conquer governments, systems, you know, it's literally the Spanish inquisition all over again.

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One of the things that you mentioned for the listeners who aren't aware, and this history fascinates me, but the IHOP KC's connections to their doctrines about the Moravian Church. Maybe for listeners who don't know what this is, maybe you could explain that a little bit.

Yeah, so I can probably, and I'm not really super versed in this, but the research that I have done, first of all, I know that... Yeah, Zendorf is definitely praised in the IHOP community, and...

It's what was on the program. It's on the program, and they named Turnhot after that, where the students lived. At any rate, Count Zendorf was idolized by IHOP, but regardless of that, the Moravians, who have been looking into that.

And there's just all kinds of sexual pervertion and things that I've noticed that... Really bad. Yeah, really some comparable things. They kind of resemble some of the problems that we've even seen at IHOP as far as sexualization and stuff like that.

So, again, I don't want to go into the details of it, but... But in as much as Jesus is sexualized, and worshipped in that way, is something that comes from the Moravian movement, and it's just... it's just horrific.

Well, we've been around a lot of... They just did a big... I don't remember how many years it was for the Moravian movement, and all of our friends, who are leaders, and crew, and...

And why, why? And there was a big group of contingency that went over to Moravia, went to Herndhutt, did a whole... And I've been really confused because I... I have even heard... I've pushed back a lot going...

So I understand how we can just ignore all of this, and then, like, that doesn't seem... That doesn't seem like Jesus to me. Well, and I think it's... it's a lot of what you've said before on your podcast, gone.

Everything is the... it's folklore, or it's embellished. They'll take something, and just create a whole new story out of it, to sanctify it, or sanitize it, whatever it may be. But it ends up being a completely different story than wanted to reach...

It's a very theatrical presentation and it all goes back to what something that you said earlier. They have trained the people not to look at the fruit because they know the first time somebody looks at the fruits of any of these ministries that they're building upon, everybody's going to run screaming so they train the people not to look at the fruits.

I was trained that you know it's true by its fruit. And so I think that's where I get confused as I go, hey, the good thing cannot produce bad fruit. And so I think that to me is just a fundamental thing.

You know, the Lutheran roots that I'm excited about are the ones where we keep passages of scripture in context. There's not a cherry picking for life. There's lots of things. Some of it is different.

But I have watched some things. I heard a lot about the wealth revivals. And I've lived in Wales and spent a lot of time there and have people I love. And I'm like, if this is what happens after a revival, it's better than any place.

And so and I have dear friends that you know they joke about that they're heathens and it's funny and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is. And I think that's the conversation that I've had with Kevin a lot is like, you know, whenever I hear I heard praying for revival, praying for revival and, you know, and I was praying about it and I said, Lord, I don't.

I don't know what this is. We didn't pray for revival growing up in my, you know, stream. Not that I don't really believe in all the denominations anymore, I don't understand like, did I miss something?

Am I supposed to be praying for revival? And what I really feel like the impression I got was sometimes that things that are dead are supposed to be dead. That's what I heard from the Lord.

And so I don't pray for revival. I don't know that that's a thing. I've also seen people stand on stage and call out addresses and phone numbers and people are flocking. And I'm like, I don't know how this is edifying to the people or to the Lord.

I don't, I don't understand that. And I want God to be glorified. I want him to be glorified. I want him to be talked about. You know, somebody recently told us that, you know, he wants to live a big adventure and he's living his, you know, his best adventure life.

And he's encouraging other people to do so. And I said, you know, this is not your story. This is God's story. This isn't about us. This is about Jesus. And to the extent that I think it's about me, that I think that's where all my problems come from in my life when I think it's about, it's my story in my life and not Jesus.

Well, they've twisted it such that they're putting into the words of Jesus as mouth, go into all the world and pray for revival. Because they, they've made, they've realized that you can make a lot of money if you can have a revival and bring a bunch of people into.

But in over time, that's a concept that I only really, recently came to understand. It wasn't until I went back and I started looking at, even before Pentecostalism existed, just some of the leaders that they're talking about that had these big revivals had no idea that they made them out of money that they made.

We're talking sometimes billions of dollars in today's money, it's ridiculous. You look at that and what was that money used for? Most of these people preach that Jesus is coming any day, take not a thought for yourself because we don't need it, we're leaving here and then they're making all this money.

So I came to the conclusion that the whole system that created all of this network of revivals and the need to pray for an upcoming end of days revival, I came to the conclusion that this isn't a Christian movement.

Amen, and we're seeing, it's interesting because you mentioned that on the one hand, John, where you have the Doomsday call, which is, Jesus is coming tomorrow, so therefore don't have any children and don't educate, you're coping if you have them and so on and so forth.

You've got the other extreme with the dominion folks that are out there doing the exact opposite, like this world actually is our home. And I know one of the key ways that we are involved with this and speaking out against this is through a place where Barbues to live, Woodland Park, Colorado and Andrew Womack and a lot of what he is doing there.

And very, very hard-lined dominionists that's taking over city council, people are lit school boards, people that have lived there for years are streaming out of Woodland Park because of this mandatory acheover of the community by Andrew Womack.

And that's how we started opening our eyes to it because we saw it right in front of us. And then we started applying it to our own situation and we're like, oh my gosh, we're in the middle of this ourselves and we're just wanting to work for the Lord and go on missions and help and go to the nations.

And yet, it's twisted around to the point where it's more about transforming the culture that it is, salvation of the human heart. Well, and just, and honestly, and I think this is part of my story in the beginning, going around the world, it was part of my wanderlust.

Like I wanted to go to different nations and I was called, and I don't think that was incorrect. But I think that even some of the things with a great commission and getting to the ends of the earth, and now there's a new day, and then there's going to be, okay, now we're going to do it by, you know, 2033.

And I just don't think that's... I don't think that's our assignment. I don't think that's biblical. I don't, and again, I think wherever I am, I want to live my life in such a way that God is glorified. I want the fruit of the Spirit to shine. I want to be a light in a dark place, whether it's right here in the desert in Arizona, whether I go visit my, you know, unsafe family members, or if I go, you know, to China.

It doesn't matter. And I think that's the thing that I was watching is, you know, traveling to the around and, and witnessing to people and being in countries where you don't know the language, and you don't even understand a word of it.

And the food is not anything familiar sometimes, you know, it's really interesting how to love people well in that context. And I think the focus has become on how powerful we can be. I, we talked recently to a very, you know, well-known leader who was talking to us about his, you know, this little gods being little gods and that, you know, our job is to take over the, all the spheres of society to give Jesus the keys to his kingdom. And I said, how arrogant is that that I think I have anything to offer a king. I said,

didn't David get in trouble when he didn't go to battle. I think Jesus can take care of it. Like I'm pretty sure my Bible says that. Remember whenever Satan tempted Christ, what did he tempt him with the kingdoms of the world?

I won't even Adam and Eve. They wanted to know what God knew. They wanted to be God. And so to me, I'm like, can we read this so many times? Like, isn't that a tell that this might not be God? You know, I, I just, just kind of reading along. I'm not, I'm not the smartest person in the world. But, you know, I, I do think the Lord has sent his helper to help us understand. And I, I want to, I want to do due diligence in that. I want to honor God. And, you know, he, he's worth it. And he's sovereign. And just some of the, the things that I'm hearing coming out of some of these movements.

Are so audacious and scandalous from just, just that level of heresy and blasphemy and just how small do you think God is when you talk about things like we, we have, I have something in my flesh that I have to do so that the Lord can come back. I mean, it's almost almost like his hands are tied and he can come back until, until we prepare the kingdom and build the kingdom for him. And we're not called to build the kingdom here on earth. What we end up doing a lot of times is we build our own kingdoms and our own ministries. Then so that we could get funding. And, and so, so the idea of building a kingdom, we just don't even think it's biblical. It's, it's, it's,

Jesus rule and reign. And we don't build that. He builds it. It's so foreign to me. I grew up in the Doomsday side of things. So the whole notion of conquering this world is, it's just foreign to me.

I knew all of the passages like the one I mentioned where Satan's tempting Christ. I heard those over and over and over again because we preached at people who didn't believe that the world was ending at any moment, right?

But now that I've come out of it, both sides, like you said, both sides are in the wrong. There's error on both sides. And I have tried to think which error is more dangerous.

The Doomsday cult or the dominionist, and I really can't answer that. You look at what's happening, and it's a very arrogant type of person who wants to conquer like this. And I'm watching as these movements grow and they'll stop at nothing to conquer.

Well, I think that's what we were talking about, Andrew Womack in my hometown. The thing that has been made me most appalled and angry is I've had so many, my parents are in their late 70s and my family's lived there for 50 years and it was a tiny town and now it's gotten bigger because so many people are gonna help.

But he's using that town. He says as a prototype to build and take over and transform, you know, which, you know, community transformation when you say you're not against, and you're not for that, you sound like a heretic.

I, you know, when Jesus transforms a heart, communities do get transformed, but that's not my goal. My goal is to preach the gospel and let God do whatever He wants to do through that fruit.

That's his. But I think the thing that's been the most egregious to me is we've had to field so many conversations and questions when we're in town. From people I've known for years who are in their 80s that are like, you know, I'm not really sure I'm a Christian because if this is what Christ is like, then maybe, you know, and having to talk people off the ledge are like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

What you're seeing, this is not Jesus. When somebody's on stage saying they have more weapon stockpiled than the police force in town, I don't know anybody can hear that and go, that sounds like the suffering servant Jesus to me.

I am familiar with the Bible, very familiar and I know that Jesus will come back with a sword and Jesus will, you know, I think there is true justice to Christ as well, but that's not mind.

And for me to say that I'm gonna take out the apostate church with weapons and determine who that is is so scandalous and just the height of arrogance, I can't even get my head around it.

It is scary. I mean, you think about all of the bad examples in history of cults who think that they have the power to execute justice and all of them end in destruction, every single one of them.

And now we have on a massive global scale. through this NAR concept, they're creating many of these groups that are doing the same thing, and it is mind-boggling. Yeah, it really is. It's amazing as we look at the landscape that's out there right now, John, and our heart, and you'd meant to be in, which one is worse.

I don't know if the Doomsday cult is worse or the Dominion cult, but I think where we see it going, and so the conversations that you've had with Steve Montgomery that I've listened to about a convergence happening, is that you're seeing so many of these streams, you see the esoteric stream merging with the Christian stream, but as well inside the Christian stream, the denominations, the orbs, the Mittens groups, all converging as well, all talking about unity, and of course, the idea of unity, John 17 unity is given.

Yeah, John 17 unity, but Jesus said sanctify them in truth, your word is truth, and we're unified with light-mind brethren that are following Jesus, and not anybody who just names the names, so this idea of unity, of all the spheres, of all the different streams coming together as nothing other than universalism, at least in my opinion.

The spiritualism is very appealing to people who are not seeking the gospel, that's the reason why they're not teaching the gospel in these groups, because the itching ears want to hear all of these things that fascinate the mind, and the focus on the supernatural, things that you can't explain if you can present that as the more powerful than the gospel to do it, because it makes more money.

You know, the thing that's been really fascinating to me personally is, I had some experiences overseas, and I was on the island of Mindanao, and we had preached the gospel, and God in his kindness did this radical healing thing, unbelievable, biblical healing, which no one was expecting, or actually there was only four of us there, and it was a whole thing.

And so it kind of threw me like, I kind of, you know, I've seen people, you know, I've seen all the healing revivals, which I've never participated, but in the stories I've heard and I have in Bethel, in different places, you know, of all these, and the Toronto blessing, which sounds kind of scary to me actually, but it was amazing to me how many things God did using nothing, like just a couple of us that were there, and there was no witness, there was no audience, we weren't trying to heal, we were just actually, we had a line

of people that we just prayed, they accepted Jesus, then we had if anybody needs prayer, then God did this, to this day, I'm like... you know, I always say if my journals weren't written in my handwriting, I wouldn't believe them. Like I just wouldn't. And uh, but the kindness of the Lord for me, because to see that, yeah, this, I am who I say I am, I can do the things that I say I can do. Um, but I'm not a, I'm not a monkey. I'm not going to dance when you tell me to dance. I'm not

going to, because I think that's what I see. I, this audacity of, you know, we said to somebody recently declarative prayer, contending prayer. And I, I said to somebody recently is that I don't know what that is. That's not a thing. Contending prayer. And he said, oh, it's all through the Bible. Daniel, and I'm like, Daniel wasn't doing, Daniel was praying. Like what the Bible says isn't enough. So we need to make a strategic targeted prayer or contending or declared. I'm like, it's so embarrassing how we show our hand as humans are flesh. Like it just comes right. It's like a whack-a-mole game. And it's

just, it's such a tell to me. And I, I, uh, yeah, I, I don't understand it. And I, um, but I'm, I'm not for it. And I'm not going to sit by while people act like, you know, certain people have better, can pray better than others and certain people can are, you know, more eligible because of, you know, super secret status, whatever, um, yeah, God is no respect of persons. And so that's, that's just how that goes.

What all comes back to their majoring on a minor, if you think about the healing and the miracles and the signs and the wonders, as compared to the gospel, it's a trivial thing. But these movements have changed it to where that's what everybody wants to come for. They want to see that. And I have, you've probably seen it in my videos or podcasts and research, but I publish all the fake ones. And so I get, I, I get a lot of flag. People think that I'm against miracles that I don't, I don't believe in them. But I've seen things like

you have that I just can't explain. There's no, there's no logical explanation for some of them. So who am I to say it's not a miracle, right? But whenever I see something that's fake for the sole purpose of convincing people that there is a miracle to get them into the hype where everybody, there comes a point where it turns into almost like mind over matter. You get everybody into that emotion and that feeling. And then there are people to start claiming that they're healed when they're even they're not. And they're just, some of the people are just claiming it. And for me, that's, it, there's no other word

for it. It's just simply lying for me. No, it's lying. And I mean, I think it's even worse when I see groups like like at Bethel and even I hop with these young, just like truly like open-hearted, really wanting to run hard after the Lord. I find it to be the worst kind of manipulation when you see these, these kids that are super excited to be together and you're playing on the- fact that like you know we watched something and it was out of Bethel and I was so appalled because they were talking about being drunk on the spirit and they were telling them to drink the bottle

from the wine and it was all fake but it was this like pretend like you're getting and I'm like you know I think about what I was like at college age what I really do and I think about how impressionable I was how I wanted to be with everyone how you know going having experiences as a group was so fun because you know you're all in it together and there it makes me so angry when I watch these students I mean in some of the things I've you know I've even said things like some of the books that were it you know that I've seen that were part of the curriculum at like

Todd White School or in I hop or at Bethel I'm like these books are not okay and people are like oh you know just to them take the meat and spit out the bones and take the meat I'm like but at what point is it all bone and I I know that God can can show me something in anything I mean I he spoke through a donkey God got us bigger than all of that and there is something as discernment and wisdom and and what do you feed on and through out of the heart the mouth speaks so what am I putting in my

heart and what is in there and am I surrendering that to the Lord I you know I I don't have time to always police everybody and you know make sure I you know I've got enough with my own character if you just getting at the foot of the cross every day myself um so yeah we just need to that needs to be at the front and center I this pacing signs and wonders we're just in Matthew 24 again I'm like you know you know I just think that you know with the kids especially it's the the

military military approach um you know come and fight the fight and slay the the enemy and all that that they were seeing out there that's got to be attractive to them you know go win the world for Jesus but really in the end it's it's not us that it really wins anybody it's the Lord that brings them in we're just the the mouthpiece and and I think uh I think that's some of the things that we we were seeing out there and I agree with you on uh we saw that at iHop as well um we saw

that in a in a recent leader that we've confronted that has total militant language on his website as to how to sign up for these classes and this way you'll move to the next level and so on and so forth at any rate um we just want to see we want to see Jesus preached we're just asking you know let's all go back to the simple message of the gospel which is Christ and Christ crucified we want to see him magnified and glorified And we're seeing the exact opposite because it all has to do with us.

And like Barb said, it's about our story. It's about human agency. And he's going to come back, but it's going to be in and through the church. It's not going to be coming back personally in.

And all this. And if we could be a mouthpiece to say, hold on a second. Now, let's come back. Let's hold on to the word. And the word that we look at, we want to look at it, and then look outside and say, am I seeing this outside in the church and in the movements?

Am I seeing it in my heart? That's what we want. That's our message. And it's time to speak. Well, I'm very glad that you came on to share all of this with the listeners.

I'm certain it's going to help some people. There's a lot of people who are in these movements who are feeling the same things that you felt whenever you went on your journey to the desert.

And a lot of people, they may not be considering the backside of the desert as how they escape. But if you could give any advice to them, what would you say to them? I know I would say, take the time, no matter what it costs.

Take the time to step back and look at it. Feel the hurt. Go through the stages of grief. So that's all important. But as well, don't just do that and stay in. Ask the Lord, get in the Word, research.

It's all available at your fingertips these days. All we have to do is get on and look for it. So I would say, take that time to just step back and ask the Lord, how did we get here?

Where do you want me? Where do you see me in your story? That would be my... I think the biggest thing that I would say is that God is big enough to teach us what He wants us to know about Himself in His Word.

And when I'm listening to other people's words, more than I'm listening to His Word in reading the Bible, in the search for knowledge, I've gone astray many times. I'm a good reader, and I love to...

But I think the reason we keep getting in trouble as the church is that we don't know our Bible. We have no idea what's really in there. We have cherry picked about 10 verses that have gotten us through our lives and we kind of know stories so we think we know.

And the thing is, it's a relationship with the Lord and He's worth it. And I think that's it. Whenever there's somebody talking about God's stuff, more than His person, I think that would be a...

flag to me. When we're talking about what he can do, rather more than who he is and why that's important. Yeah, I've just had never been around groups of people that were so focused on what he can do and rather than who he is. And so obviously he can do anything and he's amazing, but who he is, that's what matters. And the gospel and the Bible is where you're gonna hear that. And relying on other people to feed me is always a dangerous thing. I think reading the Bible myself and taking time, like Kevin said, to research and look. And if I don't

know who somebody is, then I need to look it up. And you know, because you will know a tree by its fruit and bad fruit smells pretty rotten. The fruit does smell awful. Thank you so much for doing this. Like I said, it's going to give a lot of people a lot of encouragement. So thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having us. Awesome. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity

to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.