Miracles - Real or Fake - An Inside View of Pentecostal and Charismatic Worship

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer. Jed, it's good to be back and out of this massive number of questions we have, we got through one of them last time. We're making great progress, just one at a time.

By the time I die, we may get through two of them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I noticed that you had posted and asked people for some questions to be answered, and it's funny because I was scanning through them, and it's the same exact answers that I got the first time that I did this with the Brannum call. Was it real? That was the most common question that I saw, yes, were there any miracles real? I want to dissect that a little bit in this episode because there's a reason why people navigate towards that. For me, that's really not the question that should be asked, which we'll

get into that a little bit later. This looks fun and exciting. Last week we talked about a little bit, or I guess it might be a couple weeks ago, but last time that we had last podcast that we did together, we talked about, were these men who started it genuine? Did they have what was their intention? How did it start for them? We touched on some of these questions of, was it legitimate? At least as far as were these men legitimate? I do think that the very specific question that I get asked, and you do as well, is like, okay, even if the men weren't

totally legitimate, even if the course was off, were there any true prophecies? Was any of it real? I think the fact that so many people are asking that shows a little bit of what it was like to live in that world, where people can be 10 years, 20 years removed from some of these experiences. No, a lot of the negative fruit, be totally not, you know, be totally disillusioned to to the fact that this probably wasn't a move of God and still there's this question of like, but it felt so real and it felt so genuine.

What weren't their elements? There had to be elements that were genuine. I would agree. And that's one of the real problems, right? Because whenever you're in a group that has a foundation of signs, wonders, miracles.

Yeah, that's the attraction. That's what you're going to see, right? And I recently, I don't know if I shared this with you or not, but I came across, I'm digging into the aftermath of what happened whenever William Brannum died and all of this movement in the early makings of the charismatic movement.

There was this transition phase. And I think a lot of people have just totally missed it because that is one of the most important aspects of all of this. So you had the faith healing revivals, which was a bunch of signs, wonders, miracles, and a bunch of, as we've covered, some very sinister characters in it.

This was not a movement of God, right? And then out of this was birth, the charismatic movement. And before the charismatic movement became what it was, C. Peter Wagner called this the third wave and eventually that transition to the NAR, there were all of the people who were in this transition phase, which was a very dirty, nasty mess that everybody kind of abandoned and disowned.

You had people looking for signs, wonders, miracles, such as John Wimber, who's working with Lauren Cunningham, who's working with C. Peter Wagner, Larry Tom Zach, the shepherding movement guys, these are the guys that wanted authoritarian control, the shepherding movement when it merged with the Jesus movement.

Their article is out there from testimonies from witnesses. They had adult spankings. That's the type of movement that this was. They had adult spankings to try to keep the people in line. That's how weird this gets, right?

But then after that mess dissolved, you had it broke out into the different revivals and then that became the NAR. They sort of abandoned this history, much like they did the histories of the other predators that were in the Pentecostal movement whenever the latter rain was birth.

You had, you know, Dauy was one of the, Dauy, John Alexander Dauy basically created this whole elaborate scheme. And everybody who came after him was mimicking what he did to try to get his millions of dollars as he did.

And they invaded the youth culture. So what they did was they tried to attract the youth and the youth during this time was more about, you know, sex drugs alcohol, this was the hippie movement during these years, well then after after all that joined together, these the youth were specifically looking for signs wonders miracles because this is exciting, right? And what I say whenever people ask me, you know, was it real? Was there a miracle real? I have been to great magic shows and it's a stage act. I go in knowing that's a stage act

and Chris Angel, he's probably outdated now, but he was by far my favorite whenever I was watching magic shows. Chris Angel was phenomenal. This guy could levitate, man. Well in the healing revival, I actually get people who were there during the early years and they said, could little David Walker really levitate in the healing revival? Because that was the stage act, man. They're bringing magic into this. Whenever I leave these magic shows, I don't leave thinking, wow, I wonder if that was real. Did they do it? I go thinking that was really entertaining and I might go back

again sometime, but what they've done is they've twisted all of this together where it's this massive religion and and gimmicks. A lot of it is gimmicks. And so when people leave, they're not asking the right question. They're not asking, was this a movement by God? They're saying, we're the tricks that we saw real and here's where it gets really difficult to entangle. Some of the things that they witness were definitely tricks. Other things, there were things that can't be explained. I'll say it like that. There are things that just simply can't be explained. Most of them that I have investigated,

I can say the way in which they eventually came to be was nothing like how they originally started. And so the question in the hype becomes greater, which we'll get into that later. I loved everything that you were saying there, but specifically, can you show me the second one that you held up that invading the youth culture? We probably need to do another episode just on this specific thing at some point. We're answering questions and we're getting more questions as we go. So apologies to everybody, but so many people have been asking too about why is it so

focused on the youth? Like right now, you have these churches, Bethel, IHOP, Morningstar to some extent, these churches really thrive on youth movements. YWAM is like this too.

And there's questions of why is it so focused on the youth, but I love your thesis that you were kind of putting together of the spectacle, especially draws in young people. The spectacle of it, Even with the music, this makes sense with the music to the you go to Misty Edwards concerts and they really are like, you know, concerts. They're they're very

big and they're spectacle and everything like that. So I get the your analogy with the magic show too is I was going to give the exact same, I literally was going to give the exact same analogy of the magic show because it is frustrating sometimes when people ask me was any of it real about my dad specifically.

It's really it's like if if my father was a magician and he was doing a bunch of tricks and I know hey that there's a rabbit that he has under the table that he's pulling out of that and and I explain to a bunch of people no this is how this trick goes and no he didn't really actually teleport there was a mirror there or there was this and the questions people keep asking is well wasn't some of it had to be genuine and it's like the magic show was a magic show.

What my dad was good at was tricking people that's what he that's that's his skill set it wasn't being you know a prophet it was being a magician or a con artist if you want but that was the his platform and his performance was a trick and he was really good at that he was very good at tricking people. So like I think I said this I don't know if I said this last time or not explicitly but like I do not think there is ever a single instance of genuine word of knowledge prophecy like

the anytime there's any numbers you're from this street or I'm getting this name and it happened to be their grandson or their grandfather or something like that any specific word of knowledge he had already accessed that information non-divimely like that's just I it's impossible to prove that but I can say with like utter confidence because I saw him do a lot of predictive work in the rest of his life when he didn't have information like we would talk about football games all the time I think I've said this on on the I've said this with you before but it's worth saying again

my father owes me like $5,000 in bets that he's lost over football games over the years he's probably paid him back at okay but I have made a significant amount of money off of my father because he gets prophetic words about who's gonna win football games and I will bet against him and he loses all the time and it's it's kind of in good fun like I you know But, you know, the being able to see the future, being able to access reliably information that no one else has access to is just not, that's the product of magic.

It's not the product, at least in my experience, of divine stuff. That being said, I do think that there are other things that are harder to explain inside dreams that people have, you know, there was times where my father would be on an airplane and he'd be talking with someone, and he would just sort of like be like, oh, are you, did you have a family member that just died?

And they would like start crying, there was a couple of times that I remember specifically things like that. Which it's, this is more about like, is it spiritual, is it just good intuition? I don't know, but there are definitely people in the world who are good at this sort of behavior.

It's not just Christians, I've seen other people do this sort of behavior too. Like my little sister is probably the best of this where just that sort of like calls you when you need to talk with someone, that sort of like, I've seen a lot of that stuff and I know that that matter to a lot of different people, but I totally agree with you where the question of trying to, it's just not the right question, asking whether or not the magic tricks were real.

It's just going to always lead to a frustrating answer regardless of whatever answer you hear. You're either going to be, you're either going to hear me say, no, none of it was real and you're going to be frustrated because you're going to still want to find more or you're going to get some answer to that, yeah, sure, maybe some of it was real.

Then you're going to be in a frustrated place where it's like, well, what does that mean? Was it from God then? No, probably not. If it was all of this different stuff, where was it from?

It just doesn't, that question doesn't ever lead to fruitful answers. I totally understand where people ask it, but it's just a totally disoriented way of looking at the situation in my opinion. So I'm going to open up a little bit more than I usually do, which I've done this twice now with you.

Yeah, it's the question. I guess, you know, so I try very, very hard not to express my own religious beliefs because I try to keep it stuck, sticking with the facts, the history, I try to avoid opinion.

For the simple reason, I don't want anybody to fall in hero worship. The whole thought of it just disgusts me in a bad way, it really, really disgusts me. But so here's the thing.

I have talked to multiple people who knew Paul Cain, multiple people. have told me that before he did this name and address trick that he would go sit in his hotel room and read stacks and stacks of phone books. Not just one person multiple people have told me this.

Can I prove it happened? No. That's why I don't have it in any of my books or on the website. I can't prove it. But in the mouth of two or three witnesses, two of whom would have known, I can say with assurance that according to the biblical mouth of two or three witnesses, this happened. I can say it like that, right? But here's the thing. I have prayed for people and I have prayed for people that I did not even know where they lived. They were in church. They needed prayer. I prayed for them. I watched those people get better. Did God heal them? I'm going to let the listener decide

was it God or did they just get healed? But God did not need to know their name and address to heal them. That is absurd and ridiculous, right? So back to the magician's trick analogy. If you go in there and the magician calls somebody out of an audience and says, you come up here. I know your name and person comes up. Well, if you go to one of these one of these stage acts, it's in the back of your mind that you know likely this person was planted in the audience and they came up and

they're part of the stage act. That's what goes through your head when you're in a magician show. But when you're in the stage act of a church, ironically, that's not the first thing that comes in your head, which is funny. So it's a little bit of history on this name and address thing.

It is the most absurd thing that I have come across in all of my research. This is ridiculous. But here's the thing people don't understand. Whenever William Joseph Seymour was in Los Angeles, the Asusus Street Revival was starting, he was collecting names and addresses.

Believe it or not, he was collecting names and addresses. There's actually a documentary that talks about this because there is a lot, a heck of a lot of money in those names and addresses because it was the early form of what's a database. He had a database of names and addresses.

And his partner who invited him there, I think her name was Lucy Farrow, if I remember correctly, she stole his name and addresses, which is kind of another funny story, right? But this was a gimmick that started with John Alexander Dowey. He had collected all of the names for his leaves of Healing Magazine publication. So he could ask these people for money, he knew their names, he knew their addresses. During the Laterane Revival, William Brannum started printing with Gordon Lindsay, the voice of Healing Magazine. And I wish I had brought one.

I've got one somewhere. But if you open this up, it not only have you subscribed to it and they have your name and your address, they say, do you know a friend that needs prayer? Send us their name and address. So here's a massive healing line where they've got a database of these names and addresses. And there is actually video of William Brenham's son walking up and slipping things in his dad's pocket. And at the same time, during these revivals, they're passing out what's called a quote unquote prayer card.

Which is another absurd thing. Why do they need a prayer card? And why did they ask you to write your name and address on the back of it? So that when you came to the stage, they said that the reason was so we can confirm that our gift of discernment is correct. Please write your name and address on this card and hand it to the ushers. And we're going to be honest about this. We're not going to look at them. That's how it was, right? So carry this forward.

And picture this scenario. So like I said, I've prayed for somebody I watched them get healed. I did not ask for the name and address because God doesn't need it, right? But at the same time, I have told other people about this thing, you know, somebody prayed. I prayed for somebody they got healed. And I said this with the focus and intent on uplifting the person to rely on the healing that God gave, not the healing that I gave, the healing that God gave. I didn't do this, right? I just prayed. That's all I did. So that they too can pray. That's how prayer works.

Well, if I were to be a devious mind and want to collect more names and more addresses and more money, I could say, well, I had a vision of this. And I prophesied that they would get better and I prayed and go ask them. Now, here's where this gets weird. So if I had been a little bit deceptive and did this, the person listening to me would say, okay, I'm going to go ask them.

They go ask them, yes, this person got healed. John prayed for them. They automatically assume that I did have a vision, but they were never there to see the vision. So this person, if you, these questions that were asked, if they were to ask this person, was any of it real, absolutely 100% this person would say that this is real, right? Yeah. This is a phenomenon that you can see best if you go to YouTube and you type in miracles for sale by Darren Brown, a great documentary of an atheist who does the same exact tricks. He goes out who gets the whole

auditorium. People are interviewed as they're leaving and they're saying, yes, this man healed me, this man, this is a man of God. And this is an atheist, right? And at the end of the series, he stands up and he says, look, everyone sitting here, I want you to No, I'm an atheist.

The things that you saw were all gimmicks. They were all tricks that I did to boost your faith in me so that number one, you would believe whatever I told you, but number two, your bodies have a tendency to heal itself if you get into the right mental attitude.

So there's also the physics, the, I don't know what to do. Placebo effect. Placebo effect or whatever it is. So you can go watch this happening. So the question whenever people ask me is this real, that's not the right question.

It's was the focus on the human being or was the focus on God. And I can tell you that every example I've examined in all of these movements, they point to the human because it's hero worship.

Yup, yeah. And man, this is exactly what I had like a crisis of this exact question. And I wish that I had been able to just pop this interview on and see your answer, because that would have saved me a lot of time in this.

But I told this story before. So I'm not going to get into big detail of it. But when I was kind of one foot in, one foot out, still with my father, I knew a lot of my father's tricks, but was still kind of wrestling through my own faith and everything like that.

There was the whole experience where my father had a bunch of information on papers that I had written and specific information on my life that I wasn't aware that he had. And he came and gave me a very specific prophecy.

And I had no idea how he got it. Turns out he had logged into a computer that he was then using. So he had my key chain and had all of my information, which was my bank account, my all of my emails, all of the documents that I was sending in for the college that I was attending at the time and stuff.

And so he was using that information to then give me this sort of magic specific word. But the crux of like, I think the big moment for me is when I didn't realize how he had done it.

Yeah, the magic trick hadn't been revealed. I knew that he was a magician, I'd seen that he'd done it before, but I didn't know how he had done that particular one. And it was driving me crazy.

And I called up my mom at the time who had recently just separated from him and was very in the process of kind of disillusionment with not just my father, but the whole world and was very critical to me.

And it had seen also behind the scenes of all of my dad's prophetic grift and everything like that. And I asked her, what do I do? do with this. What it, you know, is this, how does he get this information? And she was like, I have no idea. And then basically she got to the like, well, what if it, what if it was real? What if it, what, what if it was not a trick? What if it was, he did get this information? She was kind of getting to the same thing that I think that you were at. It's

like, what's the fruit of this? You can dismiss this because it clearly comes from a negative space. He's clearly trying to manipulate you. Like he's trying, and I, she didn't say it in a sinister way of like, it could be supernatural. That doesn't mean it from God.

Like that was her, that was her statement was that it did, even if it was real, it doesn't mean that it was from God. She didn't mean like, maybe Satan gave him this. That, I definitely heard that in my, I was like, oh, what if it's just demonic or anything like that? But I think that the, the wisdom that she was trying to share with me in that moment was similar to the wisdom that you're giving where it's like, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if it was real. It matters in some respects, but it still is, if the fruit of it is unto the

glorification of man versus the glorification of God or, you know, for the good of the person who is hearing it in a, in a redemptive way, you know, like if you, if you pray over someone who is sick and you believe that they're going to get healed and you get them to believe in themselves and to work for it, not in this sort of divine miraculous. God's going to heal you. Don't even worry. Don't, don't do your cancer treatment. Don't do your change your diet. God's going to intervene. That's one thing. But if it's like, I believe

I have confidence in you. I have confidence that God has a plan for you. You motivate the person. You know, there's a lot of good, healthy fruit that comes about of that, of people feeling encouraged and like you said, like the mind can really heal a lot of things.

And so if people believe that they're going to be healed and they're also not leaning on the spectacle, they're actually changing their diet, doing what they can with, that's within their power. That's fantastic. That's one thing. But anyway, the point of it was basically what's the fruit of this? And if the fruit is poisoned, you know, if the fruit is about the glorification and veneration of wicked, narcissistic men, then that's all the answer that you need about what is behind this question, you know, or what is behind this spectacle. You have to evaluate the fruit of all of it. But then of course, that's

story turns out, it was fake. It was, my dad did have non, you know, divine. He did not know of those things because God told him, he knew it because he had data minds, my entire life, you know.

So I'm gonna open up just a little bit more. Which I, I seldom do. But I think, I think I have shared this before somewhere. So it's not like it's anything new. I have at times known things that were impossible for me to know and they usually come in the form of dreams.

But when people, I laugh when people say John is against the modern day miracles and all this stuff. You have no idea what I can, what I have, right? What I believe. So I, one time, whenever I was a child, we lived in a cult where you could not watch television.

My dad would, every once in a while, backslide and get one and then we'd have this big ceremony where we'd go out and shoot it with a shotgun and just blow it to some other rings and it just re, it wreaks havoc with your mind.

But that's, that's the life that I lived, right? So dad was in one of his overly religious phases and he cut out all the television and I was very disheartened because I really like Scooby-Doo and Scooby-Doo has taken away from me.

And my dad was also kind of a black sheep. We very seldom visited the church where my grandfather was the pastor at Brenham Stabernackle. There was period of time in which we were kind of estranged.

One day I had this dream that I walked into my grandfather's house and I, like I walked through this certain pathway and I walked to this room and there in the room was a television which defied everything that I had known for the entire, I can't remember how old I was, 16, 18.

It's like this is impossible and I actually just kind of discounted it. I didn't think this was real. But low and behold, the estrangement magically ended for no reason, I don't understand why. And dad, out of the blue says, hey we're gonna go visit grandma and grandpa.

So we go and when they open up the door, the very first thing I did was it just suddenly hit me but oh my gosh, I dreamed this and I went back, followed the path, went to the room, went back in the den and there set, it wasn't a television with rabbit ears but it was like a monitor with stacks of VHS tapes and he had things like the old Amos and Andy show, I don't know if you've seen this, but a bunch of Disney cartoons and like this was not my grandpa, this is unreal, this is unbelievable, right?

But I knew it. There are other people that I know who are in this thing and things that are unexplainable happen to them. I'm just gonna say it like that. But. Some of those men have ill intent, so when you combine something like this that is kind of unexplainable with the gimmicks and you do so for the sake of getting to the people's pocketbooks, now you've got here's something that may or may not be real, maybe this was a prophetic dream, I don't know, I'm not claiming anything of it because I don't want hero worship, but say it was and say that I said, oh, now I can do a trick, I wonder how

I can amplify that trick and get to people's money. The problem that I have is that the way, and I keep going back to John Wimber, he's part of this, William Browneam's part of this, it's all the same framework, these guys put the focus so heavily on the signs and wonders that the real of all of it gets really dismissed and discredited, and it becomes like driving a car, picture instead of your gas pedal, if instead you had a toggle switch, it's either on or off, people look at these miracles in that way, it's either all correct or it's all false, and there's a lot of

gray there because some of these, do they have a gift, I don't know, but some of these men may have something legitimate, but they're also like the Paul Cain example, they're combining it with something that's not quite real, so the question can't really even be answered was it all real, what parts, which parts were real?

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On behalf of William-Brandeam Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. When I was young, or I mean, this was before I was born, but I heard this story so many different times growing up, and I still don't really know what to do with it.

There was a farm in Zimbabwe that the early Kansas City Fellowship community sort of helping fund and was connected to, it was called the new Adams Farm in Zimbabwe. Are you familiar with the new Adams Farm at all?

This would be a great thing to ask Bob Scott about too, but it's a very touchy subject because you'll see, but when I finish the story, but there was this group and sort of a commune in Zimbabwe that was a religious commune that they had kind of come together and they were trying to figure out living, you know, this sort of communal life.

And my father and my mother right after they got married, so this is mid to early 80s.

My dad really got in his head that he was supposed to go out there and live on that farm and learn communal living and take it back to the early Kansas City Fellowship people because, you know, there was a lot of, when the end times come, we're gonna have to learn how to live on the land and how we're, you know, there's no gonna be no electricity and everything.

And so this was sort of an opportunity to go and see and live that lifestyle. Bob Jones, when my father and my mother decided they were gonna go there, Bob Jones apparently freaked out and told my father that he could not go there or that if he was gonna go there, that he couldn't take my mother, it's one thing if he wants to kill himself but he can't take my mother too.

And they, as the story is told, they had like a goodbye party where they were being sent off where Bob Jones totally disrupted the party and told him, there's no, you should not go, it's not in accordance with the Lord, this is not the place that you're supposed to go to.

And my dad said to hell with you, we're going and they went and they were in Zimbabwe for about six months. So now this is, the politics of the time in Zimbabwe were extremely complicated, you know, in South Africa, there was like a partied was still, I think that it was still in the midst of a partied and there was a lot of like sort of legitimate in Zimbabwe, there's a lot of legitimate fear of about white farmers coming into Zimbabwe because you had seen all of this what had happened in South Africa and apartheid

and so there was a lot of political strife in Zimbabwe during the time. I don't have like a great understanding of the politics there but that's a little bit of my understanding of what was going on and there were dissidents, is what my father and, As it was, they were called dissidents that were tribes that were close to the new Adam's farm, who had already sort of like warned them to leave.

It's this commune of white and primarily white people who are living on this in Bobway farm and they had been warned to leave. So my father and mother get to Zimbabwe, they're on this new Adam's farm and they're there and they're supposed to be there for a full year to two years, I think.

They're there for six months and meanwhile, back in Kansas City, Bob Jones is convinced that my parents are going to die and he gets a bunch of people together to pray and intercede on behalf of the Hartley family and as the story goes, there was a donation that the church made to an inner city church where they built out the boiler room for it.

If you've ever heard of the boiler room in Kansas City, you probably haven't but a lot of people who are in IHOP know about it and this is the origin of that. They bought this like boiler room for an inner city church in Kansas City and this was supposed to be like a penance that was being paid on behalf of my parents.

And then again, as the story goes, my parents were going to stay there for more than a year but their visas got refoked and they had to leave early. So after six months, they had to leave and they went to Israel instead and left Zimbabwe.

And then two or three months after they left Zimbabwe, a group of dissidents came in and this is true, this is like I have verified all this, a group of dissidents came in and killed all everybody who was on that farm, killed every single one of them except a little girl who they like gave a note to give to the government.

Again, I can't remember exactly what the politics of it was, why they killed them all. But the important aspect of the story is that literally everyone who was on that farm was killed besides this one girl and a little boy who escaped and ran into the bushes.

And I know Bob Scott was like friends with a lot of these people and it was a super dramatic thing that happened absolutely heartbreaking. But my parents miraculously were not there when it happened and because of Bob Jones.

And so my whole understanding of who Bob Jones. was was filtered through this unbelievable story that I was told that I still don't know how much of it was true or what it was not true I mean I've talked with my mom and she's confirmed that like they really were there they were gonna stay there their visa got revoked Bob Jones did warn us now that might not be prophetic that might be Bob Jones was really aware that the new Adam's farm was not a safe place to be so that might not be prophetic that

might just be like he's telling them of stuff that he knows to be true but still it all is very very wild and if you grow up in that world or even if you get sucked in to that world and you hear stories of death and of prophecies that prevented people from dying and these dramatic things happening and it is a very dramatic world of like missions movements and people you know going and living in places that like there's a lot of crazy spectacular things that happen in that world if you're not really paying attention to the

story or not digging deeper into the story that story in itself is a dramatic testimony of the power of God right that is a dream not just a power of God but the power of God through a figure like Bob Jones you know but then if you ask more questions which I didn't really do until I was in my 20s of what was going on the new Adam's farm why were they there what was happening obviously obviously it was horrific what happened and could it have been prevented and then if you read the if you read the account that was given by

Ernie Groen the report that was about the practices of Michael Bickle and Bob Jones in it there were testimonies of people who lived on the new Adam's farm and there was a lot of suspicious things that were going on new Adam's farm where people were being isolated from their community members at home and like they weren't allowed to contact other individuals I don't know fully what was going on there I don't even know partially what was going on there but to me I think that this represents like because there was this sort of like spiritual

thing all the deeper more important questions of are we putting people in danger what is going on here what did Bob Jones know that he should know no why did Bob and my mom why did Bob Hartley and my you know my why did my parents go out there and put themselves into danger like my mom asking questions about the decision making of my dad and like that never happened and the later or, you know, it turns out like, oh, he does make a lot of irrational decisions that are unsafe and all of these bigger questions.

None of that was asked because all of the focus was on this sort of spiritual thing. All, it was the spectacle totally overrided all of these other legitimate questions of what is going on here.

And as a child growing up, same for me, like I heard these mythic stories of life and death at the hands of the prophet. And that totally shaped my entire outlook of who my father was, who Bob Jones was, who my mother was, what was going on in the world that I grew up in.

And all of it, I mean, so much of it could have been changed and different if this, if the glitter and glamour of the magic had not been the focus of the story. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.

Not to that extreme of an example. I don't know that anything could top that one. But I have been in family settings where we're all sitting around the dinner table and, you know, family member X starts telling their spiritual tale.

And it reminds you a lot of the old traveling menstruals as they're, you know, telling the story and song and enhancing it a little bit to make it more appealing to the music. It's kind of like that because what sparked my memory is you mentioned irrational decisions that made unsafe.

Well, I've seen family members who put themselves in the most god-awful positions that nobody would ever really do that end up making them in such a mess that it's really, it's really amazing that they got out of the mess that they created.

So it's like a self-fulfill prophecy of doom. And then they come out of it. Well, then they enhance the story. Well, God, God came down and I felt this mighty rushing wind. And what happens is as you're sitting around the dinner table, well, everybody, especially the kids are like, oh, wow, the presence of God.

But I had kind of a critical mind and I'm sitting here thinking, you know, that person was in that predicament because they make some really bad decisions, right? Right. Right. But take that to the broader scale.

One of the most fascinating books that I've ever read was, I can't remember the name of it, but it was written by Eusebius, the father of church history. And the subject matter of this book, which I recommend it if anybody wants to go read it, subject matter of this book, if you can read it and digest it, was that before Jesus came, we had all of this mess, really bad mess.

They were sacrificing children to idols. And after the crucifixion, then gradually over time, the world changed and they started eventually they started sacrificing grain, which is a history that's really hard to find. You don't find much about the grain sacrifice, but he said basically they were sacrificing human bodies and then it transitioned to grain and then it, I guess it's all forgotten from there.

And his argument was this was real and if not the change, why did they sacrifice the grain and if sacrificing human beings was wrong, why the practice of sacrificing grain in the first place?

So he had all of these questions in the book, but one of the histories he gave was quite fascinating and it applies to what we're talking about here. He said that in this village, and I can't remember where he said, he said there was famine had struck the land, the crops were drying out, but they lived near some body of water.

And one guy, a traveler, just happened to be in the area and he showed the people how they could hollow out a log and go out with a string and a hook and bring in a fish and save the town.

So this guy became a hero of the town and as the minstrels are singing the songs about the hero, they're embellishing it a little bit. And over time, he became a divine being who was sent by the gods to come save the town.

And then over time, that transition, I think it was, is either Zeus or Poseidon, it literally transitioned into the supreme deity of all of the people and they made temples to him. And you know, they're sacrificing children because this man had a hollowed out a log and went out and fish.

Whether it's true or not, I don't know. That's what Eusebius said happened. But in these movements where it's so focused on signs, wonders, miracles, everybody gets in that hype and they want to be part of it.

They want to have a sign, wonder, miracle. So the example where I prayed for some lady, here's the way it works in these groups. I prayed for the lady, she gets better and I start telling the tale and I say, and as I was praying for, I felt this thing, I could not explain, come up as like a chill going up my spine.

That friends was the power of God in my soul. And you know, and you keep adding these things to it. Well, then those people that you're telling it to, they tell it to each other and then it comes back around to somebody saying, hey, I heard that, and they tell me the story that I had told after it went through the grapevine and more details have been added to it.

So now me in this group think, I start adding the details that other people have added to my story. And by the end of it, it's not even what happened. I simply prayed for a lady, she got better.

But the way in which these... Miracles come and happen and if you ask any single person in that chain was this real everyone was going to say yes, when simply it was I prayed for a lady she got better.

I think that that culture of doing that of just everyone testifying the same story of Miracle that gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and forgetting all of the story You know the stories where you pray over someone and she doesn't get better, which is the majority of the stories Those aren't retooled and those are forgotten and no one talks about those

You know another big question that is asked and we probably don't have time to go into it because of course We take our time on these questions, but A big question that is asked from especially people who are not involved in

The church sure that the the charismatic church who weren't part of these worlds will ask like why does anybody fall for this but we're We're giving you a little bit of a picture of why people Fall for it when all when the testimony Of the miracles continues to be repeated and continues to be shared and it's not just one individual who is Adding glitter and glamour to the story. It's it's the whole community of individuals. It becomes nearly impossible to separate yourself from The real and the fake You know, it becomes hearing the stories of like

I've been hesitant to tell that story about Bob Jones and What happened on the new items farm because it is impossible for me to separate out what was real and what was fake there Was it was it prophetic was it not prophetic were the things that I know that I because it's all myth at this point It's all myth of what I grew up with even my mom. I asked her questions And she's always gives me this like I don't even know anymore like it's so It's so funny asking her about a lot of these different stories and she's like, yeah, I was a story, you know like she just doesn't

She has to leave it in the past because she just doesn't know how to handle some of those big mythological stories because it's It's so impossible to trace back where it began and where it ended and who contributed to it and so Yeah, and I I think that too The sad thing is is that this this The glorification of the miracles I always come at the expense of the children, like, and I'll say what I mean there, like growing up in that world is so this has been a common thing that I've expressed, but it causes us to for us you yourself and me who grew up in it to spend the first 30 years

of our lives not knowing how to even put our feet on solid ground because it is impossible to know who our parents really are. It's impossible for us to know who our spiritual fathers really are. It's impossible to know what the history of my life and the church that came right before me, you know, that Kierkegaard, I mean, this is a little philosophical but Kierkegaard talks about the teleological suspension of the ethical and like faith being a purpose that is above ethics that God calls us to do something and that supersedes what is good, it supersedes what is rational, it is the divine. And his idea of that and

representation of that is the expression of faith of Abraham going and choosing to slaughter his son, human sacrifice that God is calling him to do. And that, you know, of course, we know the story that Abraham doesn't end up sacrificing his son, but he was willing to and he was there and God stopped him before he killed Isaac. And that has always been very symbolic to me because like the teleological suspension of the ethical, this sort of the faith that supersedes ethics and rationality, especially in a world where there is a lot of falsity and you don't know if your faith is grounded in God or if grounded in men,

it is always going to lead to the sacrifice of the children, like it's the death of Isaac on the altar and very much like I and my sisters were sacrificed on the altar of my father's faith without question. So many of the children who grew up in the international house of prayer were sacrificed on the altar of their parents' faith because we were given worlds that were not real. We were told stories and not given the option not to believe things that just were not true. And it made it impossible for us to orient around our world unless we

left it entirely. And that's what you've seen. You've seen so many people who have only been able to find their own sense of identity, their own sense of self once they left the world that their fathers and mothers, but primarily others built for them.

Well, here's the problem that I have with this question, and there's no, there's no easy way to put this. There's no way to beat around the bush. The miracles have become the deity. Yeah. Whenever somebody asked me that question, the first thought that goes through my mind is actually the story of Lot's wife looking back, because that's what they're doing when they ask that question. They're really looking back, because so in these movements, the miracles become the deity. They start worshipping the miracles instead of Jesus. The focus is all in balance. We could preach a thousand sermons on that and not even touch the surface

of it. But when you leave these groups, because the miracles are their deity, there's this tendency for the people still in the group to say, you no longer have access to those miracles. You're not part of our group. You don't have our deity.

So when you leave, the very first thing whenever I left, the very first thing that my mother said and some of the other people, well, what about the miracles? What are you going to do?

In other words, you're leaving. I told them very clearly, I left as a Christian. I did not lose my faith in God. I left as a Christian. I said this to them, but they wanted to believe that they could sever the miracles because I wasn't part of their group. And instantly this told me the miracles have become the deity. And whenever somebody asked me this question, I have a hard time not thinking about the person asking it, rather than the answer to the question, because what was being worshipped here? If it was really God that was doing performing

a miracle, you wouldn't even have a question, was it real? Because if God's doing it, you're going to know God's doing it. If it was a magician's trick or a parlour's trick, yeah, you're going to have a question. Whenever I'm at the magic show or watching the magic show and I watch the guy perform the trick, you know, like I said, the question never comes in my head, was it real? But if I were to believe some of it, if I left the magic show, I could still have access to other magic shows. So I left as a Christian, I could go to another

church. And another church might have a miracle because God's giving the miracle, right? So the question is really in balance. And I have a hard time with it. But what I have come to realize is that because the miracles themselves were so worshipped in these groups and they've lost the focus of God, the gospel itself was diminished. So if you're listening to this and you're a Christian and you believe in Jesus Christ and you're asking the question about the miracles, that's not the question. Ask the question, what was being worshipped God, the miracles or the man who allegedly performed the miracles?

and what did that take precedence over the gospel itself? And I think by and large, and all of these cults I've examined, you're gonna find that the gospel took second place. I think that it makes so much sense, and that's a great way of articulating it about what was being worshiped.

And there really was, I mean, a sense of idolatry of like an idol worship created in the image of these or men, and a type of God that was contingent on these miracles,

and this miraculous expression. And for anybody who might question that, like I fully, fully agree with you, John, and I know that there's gonna be a lot of people who probably have a hard time accepting that, to strengthen that argument.

I mean, I think about, could I have remained in the world

that I grew up in, and not worshiped the miracles, and not been and maintained a member of the community? And the answer's no. Like I could not have been, and not just me, anyone, I mean, obviously me with my relationship with my father, but could I have been a sensationalist or any, or not believed in miracles, and been a member of at IHOP?

No, could I have been a member at Bethel? No, not in a way that they would have been accepting. I wouldn't have been able to ever speak up front. I wouldn't have ever been able to, maybe I would have even got kicked out of the high school that I was in, especially if the high school were having all of these miracles going on during the awakening, and people are prophesined or actual school, and if I got up there and said, hey, none of this is real, I would have had to leave the school.

You just, there was no, yeah, there was no way to not

worship the miracles in that community. So I think that that's really strengthens the argument that the, the idol that was being worshiped was this sort of miraculous version of God or the miracles themselves.

So we're right at an hour, and we've got through now, yet one more question, out of this list of questions. We teased another question of why to people. We'd fall for it. We did teased, yeah.

So we'll have to get into the right direction. We'll have to get into that one next time. Yeah. But thanks for this is fun. Thanks for doing this. Yeah, my pleasure. Awesome. We'll pick back up next time where we left off.

So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching.