Christ Gospel Church: From Cult to Clarity - With Darrell Carlisle II - Our Stories

Hello and welcome to another episode have the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Darryl Carlyle, former member of Christ Gospel Church.

Darryl, it's good to have you back. We've been talking back and forth through email and text messages and there's just so much more to tell about Christ's Gospel and it fascinates me because it's literally, maybe two blocks, three blocks from my house. I just walk out my door this way and if I walk through the school yard and walk beyond it, it's just right there.

And yet this whole thing was connected to Brannumism. Not many people know it. And in this area, it's weird because if you mention that you may or may not have escaped a cult if you're in a restaurant or talking to your doctor or whatever, they say, oh yeah, there's two cults there.

There's the Brannums and then there's the other one. What's the other one? And they always say, what's the other one? They're unfamiliar with Christ's Gospel, right? And so so much more to tell, so you and I got to talking and we thought we'd have you back and talk through some of the crazy.

Yeah, that's as plenty to, plenty to talk about. I'm not, we need more than an hour here, but that's okay. We'll go over some of the highlights. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you for having me back. I appreciate that. I was just kind of looking back at what we talked about and it's funny. I mentioned to you earlier, it's like all of a sudden, I mean, a lot of things that when you're doing these things, it's kind of hard to remember everything and then you kind of get off on other things and all of a sudden, I mean, a lot of these memories just started coming in and some of the stuff

that we went through my wife and I and so I thought, you know, I'm just going to start from the very beginning of how we got into this and then kind of, it'll kind of paint the picture more of who I am and what I went through to get me to where I'm at today. So if that's okay, well, you know, where I'm going to go today. Yeah, thank you. It's a great idea. You and I last time, we just, we hit it off when we started talking and we really didn't get much into your story. So having

you back a second time is probably a good idea. Yeah, yeah, no problem. One of the things I did want to just kind of touch on is that everybody was really kind in the comments and things that after we, you know, after that came out, one of the things that I really wanted to just briefly mention was one of the comments from someone was that they like to use the word reprogramming And I totally understand where that comes from. I've heard that from other folks too But kind of the way I look at it is if you reprogram something

I feel like you you're starting with something that you're kind of keeping you don't want to like go Obviously you kind of redo it and reprogram it and so and I feel like that's what we did By we we took what we have a reprogrammed and so we didn't when we left one Crazy situation we stepped into another and then another and then another And so I like to look at I love the word deconstruct because I feel like if you reprogram something like I said You're still kind of the same hard drive you still got the same software kind of different and I feel like if you you really have to get it all

the way down and and and and and then start with a whole new software like it just just start with it You got your hard drive and then build from there And one of the things that I didn't mention last time that I like to think of it as deconstructing and then reconstructing something new Something better something more safe And that's that's just my thoughts on it and I feel like that it's scary to use the word deconstruct But I feel like if you really want to move on I feel like it's something that's very important

To do so I just kind of throwing that out there. I'll place a lot offensive, but that's just my two cents on that. So yeah I'm a sci-fi fans and in the sci-fi world you have these androids and robots and they can be programmed for good, bad, evil, whatever And whenever they're reprogrammed, they're not always necessarily reprogrammed to something good They could be also repurposed for something bad. So reprogramming for me It's a weird word because I see programming as vial and destructive and evil to program somebody's head is bad And if you use the word reprogram what means you're programming somebody's head again

I use D instead of re you're taking the knowledge out But like you said deconstruct because Deprogramming only takes you so far you still have the foundation that you Basically were built upon and until you deconstruct that foundation and then start with a clean slate You really can't reconstruct so that turns into a very difficult journey if you really if if you don't take the extra work to Completely deconstruct. No, I agree. I agree Yeah, no, I a hundred percent and I just think it I know it may sound silly and trivial to some They may not but I think it was just well. It was worth kind of just touching on that

But no, that's good So tonight I was just going to talk about my personal journey again At a little colder commentary to you know who I am and and again where you know where I how I why I chose to do this whole path But this all started I was about five or six years old, I think I was in first grade, maybe.

And my mom worked in a factory and she met a lady that she became very close to, very good people. In fact, her son, I was very close to her son and her daughter and the family.

And he's in one of the stories that I'm gonna tell in nine is actually, it's quite funny with something I did at one of our little events. But anyway, so at five years old, six years old, we started off and mom, we were going to a small penny cost church, a family church.

And my uncle was the pastor and we didn't go that often, but we went some and it was a tiny one room building, which actually is where I proposed to my wife in. And so we were going there and then mom met this lady and we started going to Christ hospital.

And it was a big change for us. My mom started adopting the dress code. My dad, he didn't know what to do with it, right? And as kids, these organizations, they love it when the kids come in because we're very impressionable.

Then we talked about programming. They can program you right away, right? Because you're in your formative years and that's kind of what happened to myself and my sister. And so that's kind of the genesis of how we got into this to begin with.

Renee was born into it, I wasn't. So as time went on, my mom started, my sister started having to adopt the dress code. I wasn't supposed to wear shorts, which I did. We weren't supposed to watch TV.

My dad was not on board with any of this. And as the years went on, that became a really tough situation for them. And as I get into my story, you'll kind of see where my dad started kind of dabbling in this in Christ hospital on and off through the years.

But as we got going, you know, again, like the dress was very apparent. And then some of the other things that started to happen is that we started to pull away from our family because my uncle would always do Easter egg stuff.

Like Easter they would do a hunt for the kids. Well, that was out, right? Every Sunday for Easter, we did sunrise service where we go and have breakfast and it was a full day of indoctrination, right?

You know, and so as kids, it was kind of sad for me because I knew my cousins and everyone else, they were out having fun and doing these things. And as we got older and got more into it, we started to kind of adopt these mindsets that, oh yeah.

You know, now I understand why that's wrong or what we didn't, but we thought we did were kids. And so those are some of the first things that started happening and you start losing a lot of the freedoms and you're not growing up like everyone else around you, right?

Like you see your friends doing things and going to school dances and like when I was in school, I'm sure you grew up in this. You weren't allowed to go to sex ed, right?

So now all of a sudden you start being alienated from some of your friends and they don't know what to think about it and constantly feeling like I had to explain why these things were, why I wasn't there, and the answers we had, and I look back at it now, my friends, they were very kind because the answers are the explanations I would give, it made no sense at all.

Now that I look at it, and I'm sure you're self growing up, I mean, did you experience some of the similar situations like that as a child? Absolutely, and there's a part that a lot of people overlook and miss.

So yeah, sex education, that's taboo, most of these cults are like that, but the dancing, I could never go to a dance to a prom, anything that normal kids did, I wasn't a normal kid, so you can't do it, but it's deeper than that.

So what children are missing out when you rob them of connecting with other children their age is you're really taking them out of the culture, and in a cult that's by design because the cult wants to establish its own culture, which is an effect, counter culture.

So in counter culture, they're isolating, even if they're not isolating from the rest of the world with walls around them or whatever, they're counter culture, so they're isolating their culture to change the way people act and think and change their worldview.

Well the problem is that if you don't share the same culture with your peers, what happens when you grow up and you go into the workplace, well then nothing really, there's no way to connect, there's nothing that really makes sense.

The culture idea hit me in a very funny way because I'm in IT and you have the water cooler talk whenever you're talking to people at work or you'll be in a meeting and they'll use these phrases and they're making cultural references that I didn't have, and sometimes those are from television, sometimes they're from game sports, from whatever it is.

There were a lot of television references in one of my first IT jobs and I felt so out of place because we weren't allowed to have television in the random cults, even though sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't, by and large you didn't watch television you weren't supposed to.

So after I escaped the cult, I literally watched and not like watch viewed, but while I'm working, I would have it on a monitor over here. I watched more television than most humans will in their entire life. Just sun up to sun down, listening to it so I could pick up the references and when a joke was made, I'd get it.

And I'm shocked today how much that helped me because I'll be in a conversation. And sometimes they'll be talking the culture, sometimes I'll know more about the culture than they do. So now I kind of fit in.

Yeah, yeah, we had to catch up, man. We had to catch up. Oh, yeah. You know, this takes me to one of my funny stories that actually it's a great segue because I, when I got a little older, um, again, I, I was always in it, but I wasn't because I would wear the shorts, I would do all this stuff. And I remember, um, my Kentucky rockets, which I was, by the way, I was going to wear black today and morning. That was a horrible game against Tennessee, but, but I remember, yeah, as someone who's not a Kentucky fan, you, you might have been happy when we got

put on probation back in the late 80s, uh, when that mysterious, I woke up, opened up with the, the money and, and we went on. And so I was forced into this purgatory of the games were, were tape and delays. I was a huge Kentucky fan. I did not. I found, I would be gone with my friend's house when Kentucky played a big and like, can we please watch this game? And they're all Indiana fans. So, you know, so that's, so anyway, we were tape delayed and we, we would come on at 10 30 at night.

And I remember we weren't supposed to watch TV and I would go upstairs real quietly and I would turn on the tape and turn all the way down. And I remember, um, uh, my dad came up one time, I was like, you're not supposed to be watching it. I'm like, okay. And he, but he knew he really wasn't. He was like, okay, and I looked at him and we both knew, good night, dad. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna watch the game. And I remember telling my friends, like, if I'm gonna go to hell for watching Kentucky, I'm okay with it. That's like, that's my guess. You know, it's so, yeah,

that was, that was, uh, that was me, you know, kind of always kind of, uh, bucking the, the thing, because I was like, man, this doesn't, this is kind of crazy. You know, and I remember, um, I, I loved Saturday night, Saturday night live because again, culturally, I wasn't getting any of this, right? So again, I would go spend the night with people and we watched Saturday night live.

And one of my favorite characters was, uh, Dana Carvey and the church lady. Okay. Oh, I love that. And so, oh, yeah, he was great. He was great. So we had the trunk or treat work, uh, what they didn't call it Halloween party or fall party or whatever. And they would always bring us in on Halloween and we'd have to dress up as like, like Bible or whatever. It was like so silly.

You know, I'm in high school or whatever, eighth grade. So I dressed up as the church lady and I went to this thing and the leaders they didn't know who it was and they were like, well who are you?

And I would do something quotes and I know they knew, but they acted like they didn't. Well you could have just said, I'm sister Hicks. Yeah, exactly, yeah, because I had to dress on and the pillow and my, you know, make it big, you know.

Oh yeah, they would believe that. Oh my God, but yeah, I remember that was one of the, because I was like, man, my mom doesn't know who this is and because she didn't, and because like, she took me there, right?

And so anyway, so, and we would do, and I know another one, I guarantee I know you did this. They would take us, again, and indoctrinating us, they would do the lock ins, right?

And so we would do these things where they bring us in and we would do all these crazy services and then we'd go in there and we'd run around, shout and scream and then we would go in the back and eat and whatever and we'd all stay there and nothing bad's gonna happen, right?

A bunch of teenagers locked in overnight in the big church building. So one time they decided to lock in for a fast, okay, it was all guys. And the one thing that I just thought was just the silliest thing of all, I always thought, okay, running is stupid, riding a bike is stupid because I can drive somewhere.

I'm like, man, like, to me, I'm just, you know, I'm like, man, why would I run? If I could, if you don't have a car, I'll come pick you up or you have to run, you know?

And so, fasting was that for me, right? I was like, I don't get it, silly, like, I wanna eat, man. And so they would always do these fast. And so my mom signed me up for this weekend fast thing so Friday I was like, all right, mom, this is true story by the way.

I said, you got to have any McDonald's because if I'm almost fast all weekend, I gotta have something. So she tasted them to McDonald's. I get a double cheeseburger and fries and a coke, right?

And so I get there and we do our crazy service, we, whatever we did, we did. And I got through the first night and I was miserable, man. I'll get to think of how I was eating.

And so the next day we get up and, you know, we get up and they're like, all right, we're gonna go have our little service and everything and I don't know how I, what I told them, but I said, I gotta go in the back.

Cause in the back was the fellowship hall, which I'm sure you had those too. And our church did this and I'm sorry one of my old pastors hears this and, you know, back from the day, but I'm confessing right now.

And so I go in the back and we did this thing every year. We participated in the fall festival and it's how we are big fundraiser and we did egg rolls Was it one of our specialties? So I'm out there I'm I said hey pastor or whatever I gonna go and so I go scrounge around the kitchen, okay?

And I find this big freezer full of egg rolls and I'm like, oh, yeah Yeah, so I go in there. I don't know how I did not get caught, okay? I microwave an egg roll and I I scarfed it down man and I'm like man That was good. So I got me another one and I cooked it and then I hurry up and get back to you know to the service and So no one I don't know. Maybe they knew I don't know, but they didn't act like they knew and so We're doing our little service again and and I brought this Nerf basketball hoop and

You probably remember a little orange with a little mat and a little orange like styrofoam ball and I thought and I and I took tape And I made a three-point line for everybody and so we were playing basketball and You know and we were having fun, but we're using a lot, you know, we're burning up calories, right?

And so here I am. I'm full, you know, and I'm having fun and and so that afternoon What up my my friend who his mom was the one that got us in right he comes to me and says hey?

I'm gonna tell him I'm gonna I gotta go to stop and go Will you go with me, which is a block away, right? So somehow the leaders let us walk to stop and go so we get outside and He's like hey, man. I'm really gonna blast a pizza pizza and I'm like, oh, man. I don't know if we should do that We're fasting So

Okay, I'll go with you. I don't I don't want you to go alone. So we go down to stop and go and we get us a piece of pizza He's like don't tell him I saw man. I'm not gonna tell anybody. So we get back and We go back and we play we do our little service again, and we go back and we're playing basketball and Like all the other guys are just starving and I'm running around like like like I'm on crack or something and my friends are like me and you get all this energy

I'm like the Lord's blessed me. I don't know I'm on another after another no so it gets worse. So I go well, I don't know if it's worse But anyway, they go out to the thing and I'm like hey, I gotta go in the back again I gotta grab something. I remember that all the Sunday school rooms that were backed by the kitchen had bowls of

The little Hershey's kisses and so I start going and I'm like, oh, I got I was smart I'm like well if I eat all of them out of this bowl someone's gonna wonder what happened?

So I went there was like seven different rooms So I took a little out of each room and now I'm like hyped up on sugar And so I spent that whole weekend I was so full by the time I got through the fast it was amazing, but I you know back. I'm like, I knew like I wasn't cut out for this call thing, man. I couldn't even get through, you know, two day fast with my friends, you know, and everyone else thought the spirit of the Lord has hit Darrow. He's gaining weight while the rest of us are shrinking.

I've been praying and fasting the Lord to help me gain weight for football season, you know, whatever you know. Oh my goodness. That's so bad. I've only told a few people that story, that that that really really happened. So, but yeah, and I'm sure I'm sure you guys did the lock-ins, you know, all the indoctrination where they like I say, you know, they got you in there and this further drove home, you know, the the the the Colton and you know, it's just looking back at it, it's just it's it's it's very unfortunate because again, you know, your your culture was just

your little group. Right. And you're very separated from from everyone around you. And I'm like I say, as and as time went on, the older I got, the more the crazy that I was exposed to and I remember at this same point in time, we had some friends in our little neighborhood and one of the things that they always wanted you to do was bring other people in, right. And I'm sure you were the same way. And I had a friend that I had invited and it's crazy because they lived behind us and his parents took us to play putt putt golf one night and they were like, hey, I know

you've invited our son, but I need to share something with you. We were a part of that church before you joined it. And I was old enough. They're like, you know, I don't want to they they were trying to be respectful, but they said just so you know, we left because the pastor they swat wives. Now, not the pastor I was under the one before us. Oh, wow. And yeah, and I don't know why they allowed their son to cope with me. He didn't only win a few times, but they they brought me I spent the night with them. And they said, by the way, we have some things we want to give you,

you can just take it to your hall. We want we want to get rid of it. And they went and they brought a bag of these books a lot of her books, and which we all know they were all copyrighted or are plagiarized, I should say, from other charts and graphs of other folks, including Brown, which they all stole them from. I can't remember what it was. It was a poem. You remember?

Larkin. Larkin. It was Larkin. It was Larkin. Yeah. So they sent me home with all those books. And I remember when I was a kid, one of the first really crazy things like, not besides, you know, you didn't really didn't know.

how extensive this was, but there was a very prominent figure in the church and he became ill with what I'm assuming was cardiac disease, cardiovascular disease. And Bernice, I mean, a hard time even calling her sister here because I just call her Bernice, but anyway, she had told this individual that I can't give any respect, that she had a physician that she knew that had eyes in his fingers in Mexico. And she sent this gentleman down and God only knows what treatment he had, which was probably some holistic, weird stuff that he cooked up.

And he ended up having, I believe it was an M.I. and died shortly after all that went down. And that really, that stuck with me because I looked around, I wasn't a dumb individual.

And I started like, man, that was unnecessary. Because I knew like, okay, no doctor, no one has eyes in their fingers, number one. And then to go that far, to convince someone so much so that they're willing to listen to you and then lose their own life. And that was, I can only imagine that happened over and over and over in different ways in all of these cults. And I'm sure that, you know, you probably experienced something, maybe not like that, but that whole thing of just basically taking this so far and such a crazy thing that you would convince someone to follow

you into that and then they would do it. And I'm sure that, I don't know, I'm curious to know, did, did Brandon, did he kind of poo poo some like, like contemporary or, or modern medicine or things like that? I don't know if you experienced that in your time. Absolutely. So this thing was built off of John Alexander Dowie. Dowie was the prototype for all of this. And Dowie completely shunned medicine. He said the doctors were the devil's workers and completely, and except for whenever he needed his own medication, he would, you know, he would do his thing. But he would say you have to

have the faith to heal yourself. And what happened? And so he was a fundamental pillar in Pentecostalism. Dowie was one of the two main sects that Charles Fox Parham visited to model and prototype his cult after. But what happened was people started doing this and people started dying. And it turned over, it was turned over to the legal system. And the legal system was really cracking down on this type of faith healing doctrines. And so what they did was insidious.

There was a guy out of Dauy's cult named F.F. Bosworth, Fred Francis Bosworth. He's the one who mentored Branum in the healing revivals. And they come up with a scheme where the positive confession scheme, they basically put it on the shoulders of the people who were in the healing line seeking healing, said, you can get the medicine, but God doesn't heal you through that medicine.

You really need to come to us. And if you claim it, then you're healed. But if you go and you doubt, it's gonna come on you even worse than you had it before. So is this mind game they started playing with the people?

And what happened was it's awful when you think about it. When you think about cults, and you think about like Jones Town, where almost a thousand people gave their lives for Jim Jones drinking the Kool-Aid, that's actually a small number.

If you consider all of the people who were manipulated to believe that they had the power to heal themselves, when they could have just had a little medication and lived. And there were people, many people who died.

In fact, in the support groups, I have friends who, their parents, one of their parents, maybe their mother, needed some simple medication. And she could have got it and she could have lived, but she wanted to have enough faith and power to cure herself so she didn't take it.

And then the pastors, they washed their hands out of it and say, well, I never told her not to take her medicine. I just said if she had enough faith, she wouldn't need the medicine.

So it all turns into this mind game and it is a deadly mind game. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. We had a pastor later and we moved to North Dakota and unfortunately his wife had a kidney disease and they were part of the word faith and you're talking Copeland and Hagen and all those guys.

And what they taught that if you didn't get hit, you just didn't have enough faith, right? And she ended up passing. It was a tragic thing that happened to her. But I always felt so bad because I know that even though she had this disease and she did seek medical treatment, I will give her that. But you know, she was taught and I'm assuming she believed that she never was able to get over this because she just simply did not have enough faith. And that is very criminal. That is very criminal, very sad. But one of the

things that besides that, we did church camps. I wanted to, you know, and when I was in high school, we would go every year. And I remember we would get a special treat a couple of times and it was Bernie showed up in her limo or whatever. And she would come and they would bring her down in front of all of us. And one of the things that I remember very, very distinctly about her is that she was never a happy person. She was always very assertive and dominant. And I think that was part of the persona. I think you had to be that dominant figure so people would stay in line.

And we would be invited to ask her questions. And I don't know, I don't remember the questions, but I remember sitting in this chair with a blanket draped over her lap and just talking at us and barking at us. And we were never, it was never enough, right? We were never doing enough of the of the works or whatever else. And she, everybody was afraid of her. And she was, she was very intimidating when you give them that power. And we, we, we were all in, right? We, we gave her that authority. She did not own it. There was nothing she did to earn it. It was simply

she was a very twisted and sick human being. And came in and just, just like I say, it was, it was a very dark memory for me just to see her there. And then when she may get done spewing this, this stuff that made no sense to anyone. And then she'd do that, ah, you scream, you know, when she'd get the quote, quote, witness. And then they would, she'd be get up and they would walk her and we would be obvious and all. And she'd go back to her limo because that camp was, um, I remember a circle J ranch as well. And she would, it was about an hour or so from Jefferson

ville. It was about an hour north of our east of, uh, so that was in Brown, not Brown County. It was on, it was on 64 between Evansville and Jeffersonville. That's where that camp was.

And Linville, I think, is where it was. But anyway, I remember that very, very distinctly. And I mean, us poor kids, man, we were, the girls run long skirts and we're out there playing basketball and softball and just sweating like dogs and no air conditioning. And it was nonstop and indoctrination. We hit.

classes, they'd split the boys and the girls up and And I think the last year I went. René and I were we were engaged and and so Again, I I'm I love my friends and I feel so bad But so I look back at that and so many of the folks that were involved in that most of them don't go to church now I mean very broken very similar stories to myself and and They didn't deconstruct anything and they just they just they said forget all this man. I'm out, you know It was just it was sad and it it the like again the power that she wielded that what was crazy and

Again, my wife and I were engaged during that period and I ended up We ended up getting married or we had set a date in like June or something like that and I went to visit René one day before Wednesday service and we sat and talked and with our her family my family and I don't know how Why I don't understand I don't remember it's been a long time ago we decided to get married earlier and We set the date of December 27th and I was in high school But I wasn't a stupid person and I had a lot of credits already and I just graduated early

I was I had already achieved what I you know and I was accepted to Rolls-Home and an engineering school. You had to be at that point in time They had to actually ask you to apply you couldn't just go apply. It was really hard to get in and and I I was I was able to do that and You know this whole Call thing, but that's another story, but we decided to get married early and

My childhood pastor I decided I wanted him to be the one that presided over You know gave me my vows or whatever and we were both going to a church her church and it was in Kentucky It was a really small church and the gentleman there was he was a a nice guy very funny very Nice, but he was he was not right. There was a lot of bad stuff going on and At that point in time Unfortunately, he was having extramel marital fair with someone in the church and As luck would have it He was gonna do Renee's vows

He said well, we're gonna renew our vows after you we do your wedding and like okay, he's our authority figure you can't touch not be anointed right so we didn't know what to do so we just let it happen and And That was a very traumatic thing looking back for Renee and myself, but I remember my Renate is reminding me of this too the my grandpa of videotape this and there's a shot in the in the videotape We watched it back of the person that he was seeing in crying while they're renewing his vows.

And I'm sitting there like, man, like, this is crazy. And it was like, and again, you know, we see all this stuff every day, a new pastor, you know, there's a new revelation or whatever.

And we were living this chaos. And it made its way into our wedding. And it was already hard enough because her dad, who was a pastor in that organization, who by this time was not, she shared that, a little bit of that story with you on her podcast.

He didn't even show up. My dad walked Renee down the aisle. And the whole thing looking back, it was like how heavily influenced this whole thing was by the cult. I mean, they just basically took over something that was very precious to us.

And we were kids. And they just, they didn't care. I mean, they just walked all over us and made it about this. And I don't, I pretty much, I'm pretty sure everyone knew what was going on.

But no one would say anything, right? Again, you can't come against the headship or, or whatever else. And I don't think they didn't make it much longer after that. Surprise, surprise, spoiler alert. But yeah, it was, it was really sad.

It was like, like I say, it's unfortunate. These, these leaders would, I mean, we were just, they're play things, right? And this whole bizarre, crazy story, you know. And I just, I'm sure you probably witnessed things like this as well, you know.

But, but yeah, that, to this day, that was one of the biggest things that really hurt us. And again, going through the deconstruction process, that was one of the big things that we had to deal with.

And it was, very sad, but it's our story, you know, that's what happened to us. It is sad. And you know, a lot of people, whenever they're going through the process of deconstructing, they look at the really hard times and they, they, as your mind is trying to detangle what happened to you, you look at those bad times as though they were traumatic and they, and truly some of them are.

However, I've also noticed, and other people that have escaped have noticed, without those hard times, you may not have been able to completely deconstruct. So sometimes it's the hard experiences that help you get where you are today.

Yeah, definitely. And what the, the, the beautiful part of that is, is that it helps fuel that desire to, to change and to, to, as a parent, not have your children go through that same thing.

And so it not only fuels that deconstruction part of it, it also fuels the reconstructing, and reconstructing things in a safer, healthier manner. Again. We all say, you know, you want to leave things better than what you found them and that's kind of bit was one of the big things that that really helped drive that.

So we ended up getting married and we moved. I went into to college in Missouri. We moved to Missouri, right? We lived with my parents for a while. And while we were there, my dad kind of came back into the church.

Again, I could say on and off. And this is another really hard thing that really has driven me is that pastor. He was basically just, we were, everyone was poor. My dad had a good job. And he was very selfless, human being, which, you know, he was the reason why I'm a very, very giving person.

I'm not saying that for any other reason that I saw that my mom and dad both actually, both of them, very, very giving. And my dad was going through classes and became an associate pastor in that small church briefly.

And my dad didn't have much because again, he took care of us and I was very giving. And I don't know how this came about. I don't know if that pastor convinced my dad to do this or if my dad did it on his own. I can't imagine. I think it was a combination of the two.

I can't say because I don't know. But my dad had road motorcycles his whole life. And that was a passion of his. And he had a harling that he would get down and take black paint and any of the little road chips in the bottom.

And he would lay down and he would touch up every little imperfection. That thing was beautiful. It was immaculate. It was a beautiful motorcycle. He sold that. And I was like, what are you doing?

And he was like, well, I feel like, you know, God wants to be whatever. I watched him take that money. I was in a white envelope, just a small letter envelope, not a big one. And he walked down and put that in the plate.

And that broke my heart. Just absolutely broke my heart. And I was so angry because any normal human being that thinks like, you know, norm in a normal term, you know, just whatever. Not twisted like these individuals where I would have pulled aside after church and hand it back to him and said, man, I know what this meant to you.

Go by, go by another bike, right? But that didn't happen. And that's one of the things that I'm still, I'm if I'm honest, I'm so angry about it because again, that meant a lot to him.

And that's still like I say, sticks with me because I knew this guy wasn't honest and the pastor and I knew a lot of the things that were going on. And by this time, I was, you know, like seven to 18 years old and I was like, man, this is, this is, this is twist.

it. But anyway, we moved, and my dad eventually wasn't associated with them any longer, and we moved to Missouri, and I went to college. And I remember when I got to college, I started thinking differently. I started seeing things from a different world view point, right?

And you're in these classes, and I wasn't, I just remember this part. I remember this one teacher, and I, maybe so manly, said it. I don't know how he got off on him as an English teacher about John, the revelator, and he said, I think he was smoking dope when you wrote revelations, whatever. And it may be really angry. And he's like, that, that's stuff's crazy. But looking back, what that did to me is I'm like, I wonder, I wonder, you know, like, is everything that I've read is it true? Or like, like, why do I believe

it? I believe. And I started questioning things very heavily. And I remember one day I was in the library of school libraries working on a paper. And I stumbled across this, there were seven of them, if I remember correctly. And they were Jewish history books. And I was like, what is this? And so I checked them out, like two or three of them, and I started reading. And I was like, oh my God, it was stuff that Bernice was teaching. And it was fantasy. It was, and I'm assuming it was Jewish mysticism. I'm guessing that's what

that was. And so I would read these things. And I was in my past, where I'm like, and we got to talk. And he was a good guy. He was just a country guy in a rural, Christ gospel church in Missouri. And instead of like, oh my God, this is crazy. He preached a sermon on one of the things I share with him. I'm like, what? That's not what I was thinking. And I'm like, and so it was wild. But John, I, there were so many things that were in her books that were in those books. They were this, it was the same thing. And

I'm, I'm assuming that I'm, I'm guessing some of those plays are eyes that I'm sure it had to have been. And so I, I started to develop this, this, this mindset that man, like, this stuff isn't real, man. Like, like, like, at least the what we're being taught.

And so we, the church ended up splitting because I'll give that, that gentleman credit. Bernice would call and he would like, oh man, she chewed me out because he wasn't teaching what she was teaching. And I made, as I look back, what I think was a very poor decision.

I stayed in Christ's gospel because my family was in it. Most of my friends that got me And I was actually best friends with one of his sons and we cried and cried because we knew with this man, right?

Like we couldn't be friends, which is acid, I mean, and that's exactly what happened. And we ended up getting a pastor that I went to church camp with that he was a toddler. I mean, I call him, he was a kid and he married one of the girls that we knew and she wasn't extremely nice.

And I was like, man, what is going on? I got this kid now as our pastor. So he came to me in one of my more brilliant moments because I was starting to really let me know to myself that he could struck from this and said, man, you're called to be a pastor and blah, blah, blah, which we were, John, I'm sure you were told you were called to be a pastor.

I mean, we were all called, right? It was one of the ways I kept this in. So we started doing pastoral classes. And so which we had to buy the books we didn't have the money for.

And what we bought were these workbooks that were direct quotes from her books, which were quotes from somebody else, but, you know, drink, and we'd fill in the blanks. And like to get a certificate.

And so we were in this class one day and one of my best other best friends that I had was with me during the fasting, you know, it wasn't the one that walked to the, get the pizza.

And so he was like, we were sitting there and the guy said, start talking about how to control the church and we're like, look at each other like, what? And so he said, well, you have to politic the church members to get them, you know, to put them where you need them to be.

And so I'm like, my hand, I'm like, do you mean lie? No, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to politics. So man, I think you, I think you mean lie. And so I was just like, we got all that class and my buddy called me, you know, back to me and cell phones, you know, and I was like, man, what do you think?

I said, it's crazy, man. Like, like, he's like, I don't think we should go back. And, and, and we ended up like, man, like, you know, we're going to press pause on this and, um, and I've, and you know what was sad because that poor kid just literally, they spent their honeymoon at that church.

They were living upstairs in, in, in, in, in a temporary, uh, in his office. And it was just so sad until they could find themselves. And they didn't, they didn't stay long and I don't think they're still together.

I think, uh, it was just, it was another example where what they would do is they would just take these people and just move them around. They would go to the, the witness room, right, which we talked about that, right?

Yeah, we did. I think last time, I don't know if you're going to be out. And so these people would just make these life decisions for folks. And I mean, I don't even think they believed it either and they would move these families all around the country, right? And so that's what happened to this young man. And

basically, you know, he left and they said in another gentleman who they moved from another failed church in Indiana. And this guy would get up and he kept talking about, he called his sermon, the little red house of pain. And he was very angry because he had to uproot his whole family. And he proceeded to browbeat us every single sermon. And it was all about pain and suffering. And we're not worthy. And it was, it was just, and during this time, I started getting back into my deconstruction. And not because I was like, Renee, this isn't healthy,

this isn't healthy. This isn't healthy. And we were youth pastors at the time. And we started having kids come to us with heavy, heavy, heavy stuff that was going on in their families. And the church split again. And they got rid of that pastor. And during this time, it got really, really ugly. And we, I told Renee, I said, I've had enough. And Renee told some stories in her podcast. And one of the pastors that she referenced was one of the directors or district elder or whatever they called them. And I called him up. And I said, listen, there's a lot of

really bad stuff going on in this church that a lot of us, you know, just chaos. And he basically told me to shut up and stay in line. And I told Renee, and that was a, that was a very important person in Renee and I, both of our lives. We had been friends with these folks for a long time.

And that I didn't know what to do with all this, right? I had all these heavy things going on with these kids. And at the same time, I took a job. And I was a nurse step when I was out of nursing school. And I started selling devices. And I came in contact with some really cool people that were also people of faith. And I went to these meetings and these, and they would have a beer or a glass of wine or whatever. And I was like, I thought, you know, like, wait, they're Christian, they're not Christians. And then I got to know them. And they were amazing

people. And I was like, now I'm like, oh, my God, what am I going to do with all this? You know? And so that was kind of the story you told I loved. And one of your podcasts that you talk about the glass of wine, I absolutely love that because I lived that moment myself. Wow. And you know, yeah. Yeah. And it was like, one of these things where I'm like, I came home and I said, right now.

We really have to start thinking about this whole thing, because I'm being honest to us, there are normal people out there that don't live like this, that are Christians. And I really appreciate you sharing that story, because I had laughed, it was one of your podcasts.

And I told Renzi, you gotta watch this one, because you're gonna really understand what John went through. And I, you know, and I, again, I was kinda like, I don't know when you went through that moment, I don't know if that was kind of one of the epiphanies you had, or, you know, when you started rubbing shoulders with people that were normal, that were Christians as well, but, you know, I'm sure you went through that.

Yeah, I mean, for me, the bottom line is that I learned that there were normal people out there, but more than that, I learned that I wasn't normal. So, that was one of the things that hit me.

And, you know, we were so indoctrinated to think it was life or death, heaven or hell, these little things. And, I mean, the greatest miracle that Jesus did in the Bible, one of the biggest miracles is the water to wine, right?

It's in all of the movies, it's in all of the story. We had sermons talking about how Jesus turned water into wine, and then out of the same breath, but don't you drink it now?

Yeah, I'm like, well, what on earth were we thinking, man? How are we that stupid? Yeah, I remember a class that, I don't know, do you remember the name Jim Kaseman? No, I don't.

Yeah, that's okay. So, Jim Kaseman was one of the pastors in the Eight Word of Faith movement, and we were doing these Bible classes. Once again, we got our found ourselves, you know, in one of the situations when we were in North Dakota, where we were kind of getting indoctrinated again and kind of getting back into it.

And we, one of the classes, we were talking about the water to wine, he did a whole series on how there were all these different, there was two or three different words for wine in the Bible.

Some was fermented, some was unfermented, and he was trying to prove to us in these classes that, you know, it was unfermented wine, but he couldn't get this, he couldn't line up the scriptures to say it.

And so, the gist of it was that, well, it's the spirit of what God says in some of these passages, so you can't really take it literally. You have to understand, well, God's heart isn't for you to drink real wine, and so it couldn't be fermented wine when, in fact, it really was.

But anyway, and that was like, and I told Renee, we were doing these classes, and by now I'm having glasses of wine and stuff, and I knew I'm like, okay, I got to get out of this because, because I'm not being very honest with these people.

But I told Renee, I said, I was more convinced than ever, that it was real wine, and then God does them a problem with you drinking wine after that class, and I was before the class.

I'm like, he had the opposite effect on me, for sure. And so, it was just crazy, but going back to just kind of realizing. how abnormal we were when you start to get out in the real world and meet people that were normal.

And so we were still in Missouri at that point when I was meeting these folks and started really coming to the realization that, you know, we got to get out of here, right? And I remember I went away to a meeting and I came back and I shared a little bit about this last time, but Renee had decided, like, okay, I get it. Like, we, our kids, my daughter's wearing skirt, she's starting middle school. And Renee said, I don't want my family to go through what I went through, right? And these poor kids have been indoctrinated and taught so many bad things. And I

remember coming back and Renee was like, you know, she visited another church and it went very poorly. And she went back and she ended up cutting her hair, which was a big no-no, right? And so I remember going, she went back while I came home from the meeting, she cut her hair. And I left again, because I was doing my training, I had to do a lot of training courses like a week at a time.

And I had to go back and she visited another church and she felt horrible because we were still struggling. We were just, just, I got out of this and she went back and visited and she was treated so poorly by people that we thought were, you know, near and dear to us. And again, looking back, I was so angry because she called me, she was in bawling and I had to try to console her from Minnesota, you know, and she's up there down there in Missouri. And it was another one of those moments when you look back that again fuel you because we were basically told like, hey, you

guys messed up. But if you do this and do this and do this and don't do this and don't do that, then you can come back in, right? And I remember having a meeting with the pastor and like, told him, I'm just like, we're out. Like, we're not coming back. I said, I'm going to meet with the kids and said, let me tell the youth group. So I met with him after an event we had. And it was a lot of tears. It was brutal. And I remember, I think I said this last time, him calling me and

said, you know, hey, are you sure you're going to miss out on the prize? And I'm like, man, I don't know what kind of prize you think you got. But I've seen enough, you know, I think you didn't win a very, you know, you got a gag gift is what you got. You know what I mean, you didn't get a prize.

And so we left. And we went to, and at this point in our lives, we started, you know, deciding that, hey, you know, oh. again deconstructing when you didn't know you're deconstructing that's quite a journey man you know when people who've never experienced anything like this come in contact with people they I experience it too when people see me and they hear that I'm out of this cult they want to use my head like a guinea pig ask all these questions and figure out who I am and how they how this cult ruined me is essentially what they're trying to get at but what they don't

realize is that's not truly the case it's that the sum of our experiences is what makes us who we are and we went through yes a very very bad thing we had some really hard experiences awful things that most people will never ever experience but it helped us make us it helped to make us who we are today so as you have these experiences and you overcome them you I hate to use the term but what what doesn't kill you makes you stronger so as we're coming coming through this and getting stronger it's quite a journey so thank you for sharing this with us yeah no I

hope hopefully it helps folks I know taking as I look the my only advice to folks would be as you go and you you enter the the rebuilding phase of things just being able to go back and and and trying to work through them and not be is so angry and just use those things to to help remind you of where you came from and to help you not go back I think that's the biggest thing don't forget like you know don't you you have to learn these lessons absolutely re-victimization is it's a thing it's real and there are people who escape and then what happens is they try to

enter a new group and try to join something else and they've not really had those experiences like like we mentioned earlier the culture it's culture shock when they try to go to a new group and so they try to go back to what's comfortable they and they find a comfortable place sadly after you leave a cult what's comfortable is another cult so it's it's one of those things that you got to be really careful and you have to like I did I took the time and I tried to learn the culture and tried to try to understand what it is I'm leaving and what it is I'm heading towards so

I fully agree re-victimization is difficult but again thank you so much for doing this yeah yeah yeah you're welcome thank you for letting me come back well if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story you can check us out on the web you can find us at William-branam.org for more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR available on Amazon Kindle and Audible