Craving Controversy: 1 Timothy's Rebuke of False Teachers - Chino Ross

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chino Ross, pastor and the voice of the Understanding Scripture and Truth by Chino D. Ross, YouTube channel.

Chino, it's good to be back, and to talk about all things Hobart Freeman and Faith Healing, I managed to catch a cold over the last week, and so I've been fighting through it, and it always comes into my head, and you actually just made the joke, where's William Brannum when we need him?

Where's Hobart Freeman when we need him? And then I always go to the next thought, which is out of all of those thousands and thousands of people that went through the faith line, you don't see anybody who was cured of the common cold.

Because one thing that he could not cure, man, it runs for two weeks, and it runs its course. And interestingly, when you're in these movements, you try to heal yourself without medicine, so that you can claim the spirit or the power or whatever it is you claim.

But you all often go to outside remedies, and my wife gave me this voodoo oil, I'm joking about voodoo, but it is one of these essential oil crazy things that I always laugh at her when she's doing it.

I say she's like a witch doctor, but this one actually helped me to breathe, and so today we can have the podcast. Well, I'm sorry, John, that you're struggling with that. My wife battles allergies, although it wasn't a cold for her this spring, it was just some allergies.

So let's see, I think last time we were talking about how Hobart, I think, had taken a real happy story and almost turned it into a horror story, where I do think there is some message in the New Testament about healing, which is, it's too big of a doctrine.

It's seen too often, it's seen in Jesus' ministry, it's seen in the early church, where people were prayed for for serious illnesses or deformities, and they were either healed or miracle was performed in their life.

But for some reason, Hobart took that, as I said, a happy story, turned it into a horror flick, where it went from the privilege that we have of trusting the Lord, looking to him, praying for healing, it went from that, too.

You better do that, and better never try anything other than... You better not try to use anything out of a bottle like you have there because it's demonic influence. It's not trusting God and you know, it just became a mess.

And so his message became an extreme message of healing because he was so preoccupied with it. And I think that was one thing that set him apart and probably drew some people to him from the charismatic world out there because there you had your Kenneth Hagen's and Kenneth Copeland's and those people were going to the doctors, you know, themself Kenneth Copeland. I think it's still alive today barely but he's on, you know, all kinds of medication and goes to the hospital.

And so I think Pete, some people would think, well, what's the use of having any kind of faith message as Copeland teaches? I mean, it is strong. You believe God and he will heal you.

Well, he doesn't heal Copeland. So then you wonder about that. So then what Hobart did, I think this was a part of his draw is, is he had an extreme view. He was totally preoccupied with healing and it was not God and the doctors.

It wasn't the Bible and pills. It was God only. It was lived I sink or swim. I will trust him and he became known for that. And you're never going to attract the numbers that Kenneth Copeland or Benny Henn have attracted.

But you are going to attract some people who hear what they think is the logic of that and say, well, that makes sense to me. I'm going to just trust God only. And Hobart became preoccupied with it and it's what harmed and killed many people under his ministry, many of his followers. And of course, it's what ended up killing him was his extreme view on faith and healing.

And you know, John, I've actually heard some of the handful of Freemanites that are still wandering around out there and there are a few that are still supporting Hobart very supportive of him. And I've actually heard them say, well, you know, I admire and totally respect Dr. Freeman because he died practicing what he preached.

You know, there was not any trace of medicine in him. He actually went down to desk door and then stepped over on the other side of the veil and died trying to trust God, not being healed, but not going to the doctor.

And they say, I have a lot of admiration and a lot of respect and and I tried to say to them, I don't think that that is what warrants admiration respect. But understand what they're saying that at least he died practicing what he preached, but people have died practicing what they preach all the time.

And the hijackers at 9-11 and I'm not comparing Hobart to them, but they died practicing. what they preached. It's simply saying you have a belief and you're going to die for it. That doesn't make your belief right.

You know, that doesn't justify your belief. It just means you weren't willing to compromise. So what Hobart would do is he had this extreme

flanatical view of no medicine, no drugs, no doctors, no surgery. And really this homeopathic path, even that he would not go down because I know that from what he said on the stage, but a woman contacted me who when Hobart was sick at the very end of his life, she actually had made up this special brew.

And you know, most of these homemade brews taste horrible, but that may be a sign of their effectiveness. I don't know, but she made it up and carried it over to his house. That's how well she knew Hobart and Jim.

And she said, Hobart, who was really bad all. He took a little smell of it and he touched the little on his tongue and he said, oh, that tastes awful. No, he rejected that and didn't want that.

I doubt that would have cured his cardiovascular disease and his gangrene and his diabetes and everything else he had. But no, he wasn't going to go down any path like that. He did not trust in that kind of medication.

He just wanted to trust God. And a lot of this rather than being based on actual clear teaching that says these are the steps to be healed, what I found in listening to so many of his messages.

And it's not only true of Hobart. Let me say it's true of all of these charismatic ministers out there is they will take an extreme stand based on some unusual or unique passage in the Bible.

So what I mean by that is that find a story, something that happened to one of the prophets or an apostle or someone in the early church. They would find that, for instance, Deuteronomy 34, the very end of the Pentateuch.

We have a little editorial comment about the state of the man Moses at the end of his life. He was 120 years old, we read. In Deuteronomy 34, his eye was not dim. His natural force was not abated.

Hobart would talk about that all the time. So that's an example of what I'm saying where these men will find a text, somewhere in scripture of a person who has inexperienced some incredible, unique physical feet or gift from God.

In this case, his age, the acuity of his vision, his strength that he still possess over a hundred years of age, and then trying to make that universal or make that... applied of him. So Hobart had a very interesting message, a tape that he did in 1973 from Romans 8.

I've referenced it before, but we're going to play a little clip from this. It was entitled the Law of Life and the Law of Death. The Law of Life and the Law of Death, Romans 8. Now, that's the passage. I think a lot of people are for me with that. It starts off, there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. The next verse says, for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the Law of sin and death. The question of health, I'm not talking about healing, I'm saying health tonight, health and longevity, long life,

well-being, strength, prosperity. It isn't a question, are these things possible? Why Moses proved they were possible? 120, he didn't die, God took it. The scriptures are plain, they say, his natural strength was not abated, his eye was not dim, neither his natural strength abated at 120 years of age. And he's no rare example, Caleb, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. The Antideluvians before the flood lived for millennium, some of them almost to millennium. Noah was 520, he was called a preach. This he was, 120 years in building the ark and lived what was 140 years after that.

So the background to this is the story of Moses. And right in the middle of that, as you hear what Hobart is saying, he said, you know, we're not just, we're not, we're going beyond divine healing.

We're going beyond that to divine health. Every now and then he would get in one of these messages on this precipice where he's almost going over to the other side to say that there is no reason a person in Christ should physically die. Your cells are being renewed, your skin on the outside of your body is being renewed. Moses' vision was perfect, his body was perfect.

He would go to Psalm 103, he quoted that, he said every morning, the first five verses of Psalm 103 that he renews my youth like the Eagles was always talking about his youth being renewed.

And there in that clip, he's talking about Noah was 500 years old before God even called him to preach. And so you're hearing these stories and you're going, well, why am I dying when I'm 65?

Why can't I live to be 120 or 500 or Methuseless? Hey, she talks about the patriarchs in early chapters of Genesis that they lived to these great ages. And so when he's talking about Moses, what I wanted people to hear in that clip is This was an exact quote from Hobart. He's talking about Moses, and he said he didn't die God took him the scriptures are playing

Well actually the scriptures are playing and actually he did die and actually that's what the scriptures say Even in the verse that he's always referencing Deuteronomy 34 and verse 7 Which ends by saying his eye was not dim and his natural force was not abated the first half of that verse says and Moses was in 120 years old when he died When he died they can go back and listen to the clip you just played Hobart said Moses didn't die the Lord took him the scriptures are playing Do you know what I see from that John I see like what we saw last week with his use of Ecclesiasticus in the apocrypha 38-15

He is so locked in in his mind on Moses age and his vision and his physical health That he's just oblivious to what the text is actually saying and it said Moses died It said he died Hobart said he didn't die The scriptures are playing the scriptures are playing and he did die So are you going to believe Hobart? Are we going to believe what the last chapter of Deuteronomy has to say and I just want people to understand what's probably happening here is As I said he is so zoned in on vision and strengths and

Hobart thought he wouldn't die knew he would lead to be at least 70 based on a verse in Psalm 90 but he died at age 64 His health was not getting better. It was getting worse But because you are looking for proof for your views rather than truth in the scripture It's easy just to jump over that verse and even two verses prior in verse five So Moses the servant of the Lord died They're in the land of Moab According to the word of the Lord and this is a wonderful editorial comment added by whoever collected

Moses writings and put this in there and said there's not a profit risen in Israel Since Moses like this man who knew God face to face and God performed all these miracles through him But yet Charismatics and Pentecostals have seen the end of Deuteronomy 347 Home down on that or eyesight and for physical strength You know, I'm not a preacher and I never tried or wanted to be I usually leave that for people like you in Charles But whenever I was leaving the message cult I began to realize that many of the arguments made were arguments over nothing.

There was really no cause to be so upset over taking some, like you gave this example here, some phrase that, you know, he could argue Moses didn't die to his breath, turned in blue in the face, and people can still read in the book.

So it's like this argument that shouldn't even be in the first place. And I was reading the Bible over and over. I've mentioned this several times. I lost count between 10 and 15 times I read the Bible trying to wash all of the stuff out of my head.

Well, after about the 10th time, I realized that the words had greater meaning than I was able to comprehend because of the language barrier between what I knew and the old Queen's English that was in the King James Bible.

And so I've got back in this room over here. I've got the strong concordance. That became my friend and then somebody showed me online. They're all these study tools and found the interlinear Bible.

And so I started going through, this was very time consuming, but I started going through some of the New Testament reading what the Greek words meant as best as I can understand. I'm not an expert, but I began to see that some of the words and phrases, if you really understood what the Greek context was, it's even far more powerful than what we read, simplified in the Queen's English of the King James Bible.

The example that I'm going towards is, it hit me like a brick wall when I read 1 Timothy 6, 3 through 5. In the English standard version is the one that I think I like best for this first, but it says, if anyone teaches a different doctrine and doesn't agree with the sound words of Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he's puffed up with conceit and understands nothing.

He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and quarrels about words which produces envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions and constant friction among the people who are depraved in mind and deprived of truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

That one passage, just those few sentences, sums up the entire movement, toity, every single aspect of it, and what's funny is, it's so powerful if you read and understand the Greek language, it's even more powerful than this.

This one paragraph is calling out the leaders of the movement, the audience who's paying attention to the leaders in the movement. The whole Shabang is being called out as, you guys are messed up.

Isn't that appropriate? Isn't that appropriate? That's a great passage, Sean. I just think it's a really bad hermeneutic that's been followed by Hobart Freeman for sure and a lot of other charismatic preachers who try to...

on a verse or a story in the Old Testament or in the New Testament and then just apply it universally or across the board. I can remember being a part of a charismatic church in Memphis when I was a teenager and it was somewhat of a satellite of faith assembly. Maybe later on if we have time not today but I mean in future podcasts we can talk about the different types of satellite groups from faith assembly but there were some that were maybe the truest satellite where there is no local minister there at all. It's just a group of people

and a minister travels and teaches them regularly from faith assembly. This was back in the day. You know that all is dead and gone now thankfully. There were other types of satellites where there was like a local teacher elder maybe part-time pastor but the people were really waiting for the traveling minister from faith assembly who's coming from you know Rome the papacy the true center of truth to come and teach them and then there were groups like the one I was a part of that did not have any ministers travel from faith assembly but had definitely learned the faith message

and all the other stuff from Hobart and had set up his own little church and this was in Memphis when I was a teenager and that's where I spent a couple of years attending church but they had come to Memphis from I think New Orleans from Louisiana and had claimed to farm out in Collierville and they were just going to be a Christian farm a Christian retreat and you know there was a that was a big thing back in the early and mid-70s to have a farm and have a Christian retreat and have speakers come in there and have workshops and and maybe that still happened today I don't know

but it was a big thing back then and so they had put some money down I think on this farm and needed to make a final payment or whatever and I wasn't a part of this scenario but I heard stories about it but the way they were going to get the money to pay for the farm was to march around the farm seven times like the children of Israel did around the walls of Jericho so here again John it's just so prevalent in these circles you find a story in the Bible that is a fantastic miraculous event

and it's almost like you trivialize it because you generalize it and you say well my wife and I want this home and we don't have enough money so we're going to sneak over there when no one's home and march around it seven times and hopefully the walls won't fall down hopefully the lord will just send us the money down and we can go purchase a home you know that is a completely bad to have read that story about Jericho and think you can apply it to your farmer your hall. But this is exactly what these guys are doing. That must be why we missed out on our

first home because only marched six times around it. Well, there are so many of these examples. That same church, we used to have a little song. I'm just telling you things that come to mind that are good examples of this bad hermeneutic from Matthew 10 where Jesus sent the apostles out and said, go heal the sick, cleanse the leper, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely you've received, freely give. Wow. And we would sing that as our song, heal the sick and raise the dead and cast out demons. Wow. You know, that. And so we took that. Just listen to this and watch

watch what people's hermeneutics will force them into. We took that and thought because it is a verse in the Bible, it has to apply to me. And that's not the way the Bible is written. There are some verses that apply to us and there are some that simply don't. But we would take that verse, say that applies to us. But you know, as I got a few years under my belt and I would read the context of Matthew 10, I would go, but we're preaching in on street corners in Memphis, Tennessee.

And the passage says, don't preach to any Gentiles or any Samaritans, go only to the law sheep of the house of Israel. So we're violating the passage doing what it said, don't do. And after the verse that I quoted there, Jesus told them he said, don't take a change of clothes. That means no socks, no extra underwear. Don't take a change of clothes. Don't take another pair of shoes. He said, don't even take any money. No script. Don't take any money on your trip with you. We didn't practice any of that. You know, it's interesting how we want to cherry pick, right? We want to pick

what we want to believe out of the passage and apply to us and say, well, no, I live in Kentucky, Indiana or Tennessee. I don't know any Jewish people. I can preach to Gentiles. And so we're going to violate that part. We're going to carry definitely at least a couple of pair of extra underwear and pairs of socks as we travel and definitely money or credit card when actually Jesus said, don't do that. So I know that is maybe sounds a little extreme, but it's really not. It's exactly what people do going through the Bible, looking for something that happened to someone, you know, an

axe head that floated back into Lysha's ministry. And so you actually dropped your boat motor off the back of your boat. You didn't secure it. And so you put up, stick out there in the water and swirl it around and you want your boat motor to swim and surface and come back over and attach itself to the back of the boat. I'm not saying because I want to make sure I cover all my bases.

I'm not saying if a person was lost in the middle of nowhere and they had no money and no cell phone service and their car is out of gas that you can't ask God to get me from where I am to where I need to be in this car and God may well do that.

But that would be an extreme unusual case and we know that is not the normal way that people are using all these passages. When they think of the laying on of hands, which the Bible does talk about, the laying on of hands for healing, I think just it came to everyone's mind, well if that works, why can't I lay hands on my washing machine or my dryer or my lawnmower, my weed eater or my car engine or anything?

Why can't I lay hands on it and heal, quote unquote it? It's the same principle, it's the same bad hermeneutic and it's just like going to a Baskin Robbins store, what is your flavor of ice cream, just whatever it is you can have.

And so before I go to where I really want to go today, let me go to one other really famous popular example and I know you have experience with this John in your background and that is in Acts 19, in Paul's ministry when he spent three years in Ephesus in Acts 19, Paul was, he was a leather worker, slash tent maker, he provided his own living and the living of those that travel with him, he actually earned his keep because he was very skilled in the things that he could do and when he was not preaching, he was earning

money on the site, making tents, making saddles, making shoes, making belts, making different kinds of apparatus out of leather and other fabrics and he was good at that. And so in doing that, he would wear a sweat band around his head, he would have different handkerchiefs that he would use to wipe the sweat off of him and we're told in Acts 19 that those articles of sweaty clothing that came off the Apostle Paul were actually taken to, people who were sick and people who were demon possessed, just listen to this, what was accomplished in Paul's ministry and when that sweaty headband or handkerchief was placed on them,

they were healed and demons were driven out of him. And so we have this long history, Hobart talked about the anointed prayer cloth all the time, they talked about the anointed prayer cloth all the time and they would have people mail them things and you know, when you pray over this and I'm going to put it under my husband's pillow at night and the next morning he'll wake up born again. There's another classic example of taking something that applied to the Apostle Paul that is so incredibly miraculous that because we lift it out and try to apply it to ourselves, I don't think anybody slows down long enough to be amazed

at the power of the Holy Spirit working through Paul's life. But do you know what the text, what Luke actually says in the text? He says that God wrought special miracles by Paul. In other words, it wasn't common. In other words, it wasn't every day that God did special miracles from Paul by simply taking this hat off of my head and laying it on a demon possessed person, totally possessed, and these demons come out of him because of the anointing that was on that my hat or Paul's handkerchief here. I think Luke is trying to make the point. This is not

something that everyone can expect to happen. Or there's no way he would have prefaced it or introduced it by saying God wrought special. These are special miracles by the Apostle Paul and yet has become a very common thing throughout Charismatic and Pentecostal history.

Well, let's take the flip side of that. So if we're to believe that those miracles can happen through the articles of clothing and that that's the way you know a true Apostle, well then would that not also mean that that's how you know a false Apostle because I wore those things constantly, man.

Growing up, my mother, I had a piece of cloth. I'm not going to tell you from what it was off of William Branham's clothing, but my mother was hiding it. She would take a safety pin and put it in my pillowcase or I think one time I found it in my pants, but she would put it in random places as like this lucky charm like a rabbit's foot to ward off demons. And I know several people who had chronic illnesses that they suffered with for their entire life. They died with those illnesses and they wore those clear prayer cloth constantly believing that it would eventually cure them

of the illness. And it never did. So by that same logic, you can say, well, this is a false Apostle. It didn't work. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, William-Branham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon.

and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top, and as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

On behalf of William Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. When I grew up, John, you know, believing that when I was a teenager in my early 20s, because Hobart said it, and so here's the problem with whenever a minister says things like that, and doesn't, um, doesn't encourage you to read the context in which it's found or just, you know, approach it with some common sense point of view.

Then you just go away thinking, I've got biblical support. You know, everybody thinks I've got proof text. That's what they're called. Proof text. For anointed clause, I've got an axe 19 and really you don't have a proof text.

And I'm not saying that someone hasn't somewhere somehow been healed by some anointed call. But what I am saying is that's not what that passage is teaching. The passage actually says that that was something that was special and unique to the Apostle Paul's ministry and deservedly so look at the conversion experience of that man on the road to Damascus in Acts 19 at our Acts 9 rather and look at the abundance of revelation he was given and look at the suffering that he went through, preaching the gospel and look at all that Paul endured in life to be the leading Apostle as it

were who ended up writing as far as books are concerned, you know, a good part of our New Testament, a very special Christian in our past and we are so thankful for. But I'm not Paul, I'm not Moses, neither any of these other people, again to reference Moses.

If you read the end of Deuteronomy 34, Moses did live to be 120 and he was as strong when he died as when he was 40. He needed it. He led this whole nation of people out of Egypt, led them through the wilderness against their will and is standing on the banks of the Jordan River basically looking into the Promised Land not allowed to go in himself but having carried the burden of these people for 38 years out there in the wilderness.

He needed the strength, he needed the vision, he needed the age, he was a unique person. And I just think when we go and read these passages and then try to apply them to ourselves, we so trivialize the passage, we just trivialize it and we just make it mundane. We make it available to every Christian that anybody can claim to be 120 and still have perfect vision or anyone can claim to get an axe head to float or to raise a dead person. These are special miracles or the anointed calls that came from the Apostle Paul.

But, you know, I think also, John, you know, I try to step back from this and look at what these ministers, Hobart Freeman in particular, what they have created, the type of mentality, the type of following, where they have really discouraged people from independent research and thinking and consideration. They have, they've taken a swing at people's self-confidence by talking about all their degrees and how smart they are. And then if that doesn't work, then they use the time honor touch-not-mind-anointed approach to try to break down people's defenses and just turn people into zombies. And it's almost like, I know why the ministers do that because they want to feel

like I'm important and no one better challenge me. And again, while we're on this subject, again, they think they have proof-text because they'll say, well, look at Acts 5 and an isentifier tried to lie to the Apostle Peter and God just struck him dead. And Moses, the sons of Korah, rebelled against Moses. Moses said in number 16, if you guys die in normal death, God hasn't spoken by me. But if the earth does a new thing and opens itself up and swallows you in your tents and all your goods, then we'll know I'm God's prophet and you aren't. And that's exactly what happened.

And so these ministers, John, have seen these passages and they somehow think they're Moses or Peter and we are not. We are so far from those men. We're not those men. We don't have that calling. We don't have that anointing. We don't have those miracles. But, but, we want that authority over people.

You know, we still want to be able to threaten them. And it's almost as though there are some followers out there. And I've tried to think of the psychology involved in this who maybe want to be a part of a church where you have a minister up there and then you can go until your relatives and friends, well, my minister, you know, he is anointed of God. And he told a story where someone opposed him. And then the next week, you know, they die in a car crash.

You know, that gives them this feeling of, I've got, you know, I've got a really important, powerful, anointed minister. This just happened to me a few weeks ago, you know, I teach a and just a small home Bible study It's a regular weekly study and one of the dear sisters there And I wouldn't embarrass her for anything. I don't think she watches these podcasts So I'm probably safe and she's smart. She's a college professor. Her husband is a college professor Most of people there have earned doctor degrees. I always say I'm the dumbest person in the room

All of you people are way smarter than I am, but I was teaching on We're in Revelation 6 and I was on the fifth seal the Tribulation martyrs Where we see these people who have been killed and they're crying out Lord how long until you judge and avenge our death And so we were just working our way. We spent several weeks working our way through the Appropriateness of that type of prayer for a Christian to make and we looked at Jesus example as he died on the cross and Stephen the first recorded Churches martyr in the end of Acts 7 how he prayed on his

dying day for his persecutors And so after I got through teaching after having said all this This lovely very educated woman said well Chino, do you have any stories where Where you feel like you were unjustly done unjustly persecuted and then God you know then indicated you afterwards and My response to her I think was along this line. I said you know

I don't I don't think I'm important of an hurt. I'm not an important enough person For God to go around judging people because they disagree with me over something. I said do you see The height of arrogance is going to be involved in thinking that You're important enough. You got to be a pretty darn important person That if someone disagrees with your message God just wipes them off the face of the earth. You know, he did that for Peter He did that Or Moses, but I'm neither one You know, I said maybe he has I don't know, but I said I would rather doubt it

And I said I just don't think that's the way we're supposed to go through life And I don't know that I said this to her, but I even thought of this later because I thought of these stories if these ministers had given that This this newspaper editor or this writer or this church member Disagreed with me and a month later they came down with whatever and died or they died in a car crash or they fell off a ladder and broke their leg You're assuming that because that event happened after what you

Thought was opposition to you, that there's a causal relation between the two, and that's not necessarily true. You learn this in your early epistemology and logic classes. It's in a famous Latin phrase, post-hoc, or go-proctor-hoc. After this, therefore, because of this, that's not necessarily true at all. B may happen after A, but you've got to demonstrate that B happened because of A. There's no way to demonstrate that. We're just assuming, and if we're really vain, I think we're hoping that the reason they suffered is because they opposed me. We should never think that as a Christian. We should not think that we're important enough

that God would do anything like that. I would pray, God, please don't punish anyone, because you haven't punished me. I'm so grateful for that. I don't want you to punish any one else either.

You know, I made the joke earlier about my wife's voodoo oils, and I was really hesitant to use the word voodoo, because there are so many people listening who will just be up in arms that I said this. Oh my gosh, she's using voodoo magic on his cold, right? But what's interesting is the people who make that argument, and I've seen them even in the comment feeds, some of them will go down pathways to blame others for common word to common jokes, and they don't realize that the movement as a whole is practicing the same kind of thing.

What you're describing is a curse. They were talking about putting a curse on the person who was in opposition. That's not the Christian way, man. That might be the voodoo way, but that's not the Christian way. You mentioned the word persecution. I want to hone in on that just a second, because persecution goes both ways. I know that I'll probably get some backlash for this, and I'll take it in the comment feeds if you want it, but persecution goes both ways. I was in the same type of movement. I did the same type of quote-unquote

witnessing to others, and what this essentially entails, you're in a divine healing cult, and when somebody who's not in your cult gets sick, you try to convince them that they can just name it and claim it. They can use the power of confession. Even though they're not in the same religion, they may be Christian, but they don't believe in the positive confession stuff, and you're trying to force it on them, and it's not an outright threat, like it would be for the person. They said this person died because of this, but it's offensive to the people who aren't in that religion, and I didn't really grasp that until I was out of the

cult for probably a year or so, and I was taking a road trip, a business trip with a friend of mine, who is a Christian, and about an hour into it, I finally broke the ice, and I said I'm no longer in that religion that I was in. I didn't call it a cult at that time.

I'm, and what's funny is he is one of the people that I had gone to and tried to quote unquote witness, and he said, John, I could tell you're under such a needless burden.

I can't remember his exact words, but you're under such a burden with that because you're trying to, you know, spread this thought to me and I read my Bible. So I know that this is not the gospel.

This is by no means the same. And it was the first time that really struck me all of it. The fact that I was trying to push it on people who did not, they were not of the same mindset.

They saw it offensive. If you mention this to a person who's dying of cancer, for example, and mention that, hey, you can just join our faith and name it and claim it and you can be healed.

Well, the odds of them, especially if it's later stage cancer, the odds of that happening is very, very slim. You're just adding to their burdens. This is offensive. This is not helping them. But then me trying to push it, it was a burden for me because deep inside, man, I knew that some of the people that I tried to push this on, I knew that they were beyond the medical help.

I knew that they were probably not going to get any better. But I was still pushing it because that was what I was trained to do. And it's not Christianity. I'll just say it like that.

But the point I'm trying to make is, it goes both ways. Whenever the people who are in the movement feel like they're being oppressed because people don't believe it, well, they have to understand that while they're trying to push it on those same people, those people are going to eventually speak out and say, hey, no, this is not right, what you're doing.

It's just called so much long-term damage, John. A lot were on the, before we leave and we can wrap up with this, the Deuteronomy 34 passage because I think that was the passage that Hobart took again out of context and used and that concerns Moses and his visual acuity.

It said Moses could still see great and great distances at the age of 120. So you know where I'm going and that's eyed glasses. Wow. This became almost a litmus test at faith assembly, maybe one of the biggest practical health quote-unquote problems at faith assembly.

It's not life and death, not cancer, it's not diabetes. You can live, you won't die if you take your glasses off, but you can't see. It can create all kinds of havoc in your business and work life and family life and Bible reading life, but at least you can live.

You know, it's not a critical health issue, but it became a really big part of what faith assembly was known for. And what's interesting, I don't know that people back then, I don't know if they have since then fought through this, but as I was...

navigating my way out of Hobart's grip in my early to mid-20s. And at that time, I still believe what he said, oh, healing's in the atonement by a strife for heal. He carried our pains in our sicknesses. Well, the fact that you can't see very well isn't a pain, isn't, well, it might be a pain in the, you know, what? But it's not a pain. It doesn't hurt you.

It is not a sickness. It is not an illness. So where are we ever going to draw the line? You know, if you want to still hold to this doctrine of healing, being in the atonement, then it needs to be healing for someone who's sick and poor vision, unless there is some medical condition, you know, it's just poor vision. It's not an illness and it's not sickness.

So I've got another clip for people to hear. And this is from a study that Hobart did years ago. I believe it was 1974. He did a little short series in the Book of Hebrews. And I don't recommend that people listen to these series because it is not an expositional exegetical study of Hebrews. All of Hobart's series on any book was simply his effort to find a passage in that chapter. They want to preach on any way, maybe an anti-doctor passage. And so he'll teach the chapter. You don't learn the chapter. You just hear the same old faith or deliverance or

healing or prosperity message just with a different garb. Should I take my glasses off here, that one all the time? All right, had my eyes prayed for it, should I leave them off? I still can't see.

Well, I say the reason is that you're not healed yet. You'll never be able to see as long as you're asking, should I leave my glasses off or put them on? One fellow tried to, but he said, I've got to have put them back on because he said, that's the way I earned my bread. I got to see, the kind of work I am in, I've got to see. He really does. He needs these glasses.

Well, I didn't say it wouldn't be a trial for him, but I'm saying faith is I'll give up that job before I'll doubt. Now, I didn't say you have to take your glasses off. That's between you and how far you want to go with this healing bit. I just go all the way. All the times when the old flesh wish that I had had those glasses back on. This book I'm writing now about 400 pages, I guess, and I'll tell you. There are times when I just had to quit. I could not see another word.

You have no idea the research. Well, sometimes you've had to deal with 13 books for just one thing you're dealing with in your book, and that's all right. But you see? When it's faith, you don't ask, what should you do?

Are wouldn't it be easier to quit battling this thing and just get the job done? It'd been a lot easier if I'd had never taken them off several years ago, yes, and I wouldn't have to tell you about it.

I could do like some do. They put them on to read the menu, they put them on to read the Bible, they put them on to do their studying, they say, well, I'm 50 years old, I'm 55 years old, your eyes get set.

You heard my answer to that one? If they get set completely, they call that death. So I'm not going to confess my eyes, we're getting set. That's just a part of the confession, I'm on the way down, not up.

Hallelujah. Oh, I could see, all right, you saw me reading this pretty poor light up here, but I'm saying, you know, that the research I've been doing in all by faith, it's amazing, the size of that book and I've read it all by faith, and worked hard.

I get up friends, if I start at nine o'clock, I go to bed at one, seven days a week, not boasting our crying on your shoulder, that's just me, I would know what to do with myself, if I wasn't busy.

You know, if I take a day off, I have to build a radio or something. So I'm saying that I use my eyes probably more than any dozen of you out there, and I've done it by faith, so it does work.

And of course, manifestations do come on this and that and the other, we've all had manifestations of various things, some have had their eyes healed, and that sort of thing, an instant manifestation are close to that, and I'm just saying this is how you want it, if you want to go all the way in some of us have, then you won't need glasses.

And so, you know, what we're hearing on this is Hobart's Take on Glasses, glasses, Hobart Warglasses early on, if you go back to really early tapes in the early seventies, and I'll just give people a couple of examples and there are plenty of these, you can find him talking on a Sunday or on a Wednesday evening service, saying the next day, which would either be a Monday or a Thursday, I've got to go down to the, I examine place for my license and take the test, and I'm confessing 2020 vision.

So on a tape entitled Overcoming the Impossible, done in 1973, you'll hear just a little reference to that, you know, it's on his mind, oh, I can't... I see very well. And I've got to go take the test tomorrow on another message in title, matured sunsheet.

You love to talk about matured and manifested sunsheet. That was done in 1975. And there are literally, I don't know, maybe a dozen or 15 other messages where coming up in the near future, if not tomorrow that week from the message that he's teaching at that moment, he's gonna have to go down and take the driver's test.

So this became just a huge problem. And again, it's not a healing or sickness issue. We're into the area of a corrective vision miracle that needs to take place in your eyeball. This is not healing the sick.

This is a creative miracle that needs to take place. Somehow, Holbert was able to just throw them all in the same basket that is all a healing issue, that is all caused by the devil and God wants to set you free from it.

And so the people went through all these struggles. They would wear their glasses at home, but they too ashamed to do it at church. And so you'd see them as they would pull into the parking lot, take the glasses off and put them in the glove compartment.

So you're actually causing these people to, you're forcing them to live a double standard. You're forcing them because of the fear of peer pressure to not be able to live the life in a clear conscience of the way that people should.

People would drive without glasses when they really needed them. People would drive without a license because they couldn't pass the test. I can't tell you how many stories that I've heard even in the last years since you and I started these podcasts where people would tell me one of them was a minister who was a part of faith assembly.

He said, I would basically born legally blind. He said, I've never been able to see it. And he struggled all those years with barely being able to function. And nobody's eyes were being, quote, manifested, unquote.

It's his whole cognitive dissonance that people are going through where they have a belief and they have an experience and they don't line up and you live with this constant tension and constant friction.

I believe that my eyes are healed because I claimed it, but I can't pass the darn test. And that goes here after year. I think the psychologist call it cognitive dissonance. That's a terrible state to put yourself in.

You're going to manipulate or massage something. You're going to say, oh, you know what? I think I can see better. You know, you're going to squint and convince yourself you can. You're going to do something because we as human beings can't live.

We can't go through life with this firm belief. I am healed by Jesus' stripes and this firm reality, but I cannot see a wit better than I could before I prayed. That is a very, very unhealthy psychological state to be in.

One of those has to give. You either have to change your belief or change your experience. They're waiting on their experience to change. They're waiting on their eyes to be healed so they can see.

Rather than saying, you know, I've been waiting five years, 10 years, 20 years. My experience hasn't changed. I wonder. I just wonder if there's something wrong with my belief. Had people been willing to do that, they could have gone back and addressed, you know, just such a simple, simple area.

John, some of these men, they couldn't see. They had a day job. They couldn't drive to work. They're picked up by brothers in the church and carried to the job sign. Sometimes where it was really bad is if the husband and the wife neither could see, neither could get glasses because that was against faith assembly law.

Therefore, legally, neither could drive, although some just did it anyway. You know, Hobart's doctrine forced them to sin against her own conscience. They knew I'm driving illegally, but I don't have any other choice because I can't wear glasses because that's sinning.

So rather than sinning in that direction, I'll sin in this direction. I'll drive illegally. You're putting them between a rock and a hard place that was never fair for those people. So with these families that had a large number of children, dad can't legally drive because he can't see.

The mother can't do anything. She can't leave the home. She can't see. I have heard some of the most traumatic stories. I heard one story of a young girl who must have just been and I probably don't have all of this right, but who was getting ready to take her vision test so she could get her permit, so she could graduate up to the driver's license.

And wow, I'm an old guy now, but we can probably all think back and remember getting a driver's license was like a new lease on life.

You were free from your parents to have to take you somewhere. If you could get behind a wheel of a car and you had a driver's license, you could take yourself somewhere. This is life changing for a teenager to get to drive.

So this young lady, and I know I don't have all the details right, but somehow she was able to get her permit. And I don't know how she passed the test. I have heard stories from others.

Some of them found out from people before them what the eye chart was. So they... couldn't see it, but they memorized it and so repeated it. There were just all different types of tricks that they had to get through that.

And then when it came time to get her driver's license and she really couldn't see, her father was gonna make her give up her driving privileges. So she had to sin against her own conscience and be deceptive to her father.

You know, she literally had to sin against her own conscience to be deceptive to her father. And I've told her when she told me the story, I said, sister, I don't blame you. You know, I understand the pressure you're under because driving as a 16 year old is a life changing event.

And you know, you want to drive even if you can't see or even if you're going to drive illegally. So here's a case, John, of really, really poor herminutics. Moses had perfect vision at 120.

That has nothing to do with me or you or her or them or they or him or her or she. That's just what Moses experienced. But if we allow these ministers this bad herminutic, then they will say, well, we've got a verse here.

Moses could see, you could see, but let me tell people this in my concluding remarks. Hobart died when he was 64, 64 and a half. Hobart's vision was going downhill. And you know how we know that?

And here's what the rank and file might not know. Hobart had changed Bibles to a giant print Bible. Well, you know what I'm going to ask? What's the difference? What's I have, by the way, a regular print Bible.

And it's pretty small. And I can still see it. But occasionally, the things that are right here in the center column, those are references to something in the Old Testament, then what I go to is this.

And then I can read that center column reference. Do you know what some of the people, I know of one in particular and I'm sure it's happened with others down to this day. There are not many freemenite hardcore out there.

There are a few. Down to this day, they won't get glasses, but they own this. What is the difference? Why can't we tape this thing to your eyeball and you just walk around with it?

And then technically, you're not wearing glasses, you're wearing a magnifying glass. So Hobart graduated from a regular print Bible to a giant print Bible. Yes, he did because people said we were up there at the podium, we saw the print.

When you got five inch tall letters, it's pretty easy to read. And not only that, Hobart couldn't pass his driver's test either, so he was not able to drive. and June drove him around everywhere and brought him to church. Maybe the rank and file don't even know that. Maybe they're willing to justify it by saying, well, Hobart was just going through a trial of his fate. Well, I'm sorry to tell all these people. Most of them all have waking up by now and own a pair of glasses because they went without being able to see for so many years. They said

enough of that. I'm going to go buy me some glasses. And that's exactly what they did. And for me, it all goes back to that one single phrase. They have an unhealthy craving for controversy and quarrels about words because really in the end, what does it matter, man? What does it matter if somebody goes and gets glasses? It's just absurd when you think about it. But fortunately, for me, my eyes aren't that great either. But fortunately, for me, I live in the digital age where I can pull up the Bible app on my phone and I can pinch zoom it in and I can read it far away or

read it close to my head if I want to with or without my glasses. So it had Hobart lived in the digital age. Maybe he wouldn't have needed a large print Bible. So anyway, this has been fun and interesting. Thank you for doing this. Thank you, John, for having me. I appreciate it. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle,

in Audubo. You