Vance Boelter IHOPKC Connection: Tracing the Theology Behind the Trigger

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org, and with me, I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.

Jed is good to be back and to talk about all things troubling in today's world of politics and Christianity. You know, this week I had a conversation with Dr. Stephen Hassan. So it will come out before this podcast gets published in the lineup of things, and I think we're injecting this podcast in our lineup so the other of us will come back later.

But Dr. Hassan contacted me and he wanted to talk about the assassination that happened in Minnesota, where a radicalized person was evidently, as I understand it, he had a hit list of like 50 names, and the media, the news media had branded this as a conservative Christian, which I took great issue with because in the world of Christianity, you have the liberal Christians and you have the conservative Christians.

So literally they branded 50% of Christianity as the problem here, and that's the way they branded it, and they took out all of the important keywords. So today, I wanted to have a podcast to talk about the most important one that they missed, which is radicalization.

They did not really discuss the fact that this was a radicalized Christian, and I'm using the word Christian in air quotes, because if you understand what this is, this is deeply tied to the New Apostolic Reformation, it is tied directly to, I've got multiple news reports where it's tied directly to Christ for the Nations, which is the Institute that, as we'll discuss today, it's the Institute that exists because of William Brannum, and things like IHOPKC would not exist without Christ for the Nations.

This was the big deal, this was the organization. And so this guy was radicalized in this, and I'm reading, even right before I connected with you today, I was reading through some additional news reports where his hit list apparently included key Democrat figures.

So those who are saying, no, this was a Democrat, gone rogue, you can't really say that because his hit list included... several key figures which will get into that some but he's also making statements in sermons he was a preacher that is talking about deliverance ministry which is something you and I talk about and he his agenda appears to be the very convergence of politics and Christianity that you and I have been discussing so this is very relevant to what we're talking about and anyway I wanted to talk talk with you further and and try to iron out what is this mess that we're dealing with?

Yeah well the Christ for the nation's international or the what is it Christ for the nation's institute that's a big piece of it that's where he like went to school but so when I first heard about Vance Bolter and saw you know things pop up on my various feeds I saw a clip of him preaching and immediately I was like man this this feels like NAR preaching this feels like preaching that's very similar to a lot of the world that I grew up in so I kind of wanted to do a deep dive because I had this sort of suspicion that he would be connected with the NAR stream just by

the way that he preached and the first thing I did is listen to his sermons I didn't like look up a lot of what everybody else was saying I just found you know every sermon that I could which he had spoken I don't know if other people have found other sermons that he's spoken of but there's three sermons that he that I was able to find online where he was speaking in the Congo and he I believe it was the Congo but he was he was in Africa speaking to a French speaking population there so that it was being translated and everything like that and I listened through his like three

different 45 hour long sermons that he had just to kind of pick out hey what is the ideology of this individual and like even without looking at his background he didn't say a bunch in these sermons there are a lot of fluff a lot of like just saying a lot but saying nothing but the things that he did say that it was clear he was part of the New Apostolic Reformation first of all he talked about the destruction of the American church and the division in the American church and that was a huge thing for him that he talked about several different times where the American church was divided

and the things that were dividing the American church that he pointed to were

issues of like gender and sexual orientation people not even knowing what gender they are and churches affirming you know Transgender ideologies. He didn't use the word transgender, but he used the word like they don't even know what gender they are in these churches. So he had some of that rhetoric and he said abortion.

He said there's some churches out here who are supporting abortion if you can believe that, you know, and those were sort of the two things that he talked about generally dividing the church, which you know, those are the two things that and that's conservative Christianity. A lot of people actually agree on those. A lot of conservative Christians would also take issue with sexual orientation and abortion. So that doesn't narrow it down a ton. Of course, that's like Bob Jones.

I remember Bob Jones talked about the two demons that would attack America and divide the church in America and the two demons were homosexuality and abortion. Like I remember hearing that at a very young age. So, you know, it's not that in of itself doesn't tie vans to the new epistolic reformation specifically, but it definitely overlaps with it and there's definitely some similarities there. But then he talked about what was going to heal the American church. And this is when you're like, okay, this man's definitely been radicalized by the new epistolic reformation. We talked about

gifts of the spirit that like healing and prophecy and so he advocated for those different

supernatural gifts of the spirit like prophecy, healing tongues, all that. But then specifically, he has a couple of lines in there about the prophets and apostles that God is raising up prophets and apostles who are going to heal the American church. And for you and for I and for everyone who knows about the new epistolic reformation, that's a big light bulb of like, okay, talking about apostles and prophets. That's kind of the main first thing that the new epistolic reformation kind of adopted is this idea that God is raising up these mouthpieces, these prophetic individuals who are going to prophesy and apostles to like sort of lead the church where it's going to

disparate, but like still among the sort of same banner of people being led by the Holy Spirit, the whole non-nominational church is joining and like apostolic networks. And you know, that's literally new epistolic reformation is in the title because this this emphasis on this epistolic anointing is obviously very important in the NAR. And clearly it was important to bolter as well. But then here, John is the crazy stuff and nobody's been reporting about this. So this is new information because I don't think many people people know what he was talking about, the people who have like the journalists

who have been listening to his different sermons, this probably didn't perk up their ears, but it certainly did with me. And in two of the sermons that Boulter gave, he spoke about how his mentor, that he met a mentor at Christ for the Nations Institute.

And we can get back to, I would love to hear more about the history of Christ for the Nations Institute, because I think that like Boulter clearly went there, and that's where he kind of got radicalized for Christianity, and that's sort of like very important.

So we can get back to that. But at Christ for the Nations Institute, he met this guy, which he doesn't name in his first sermon, I listened to, but he talked about him, and he talked about how he was deeply influential on Boulter, and how he was a part of a mission's commune

in Zimbabwe, where 16 people, he said 17, but 16 people were killed with a machete on this farm,

and it was extremely like, he references how it was like this very defining moment for his life, and how it was an incredible, like horrific incident that happened where he had his mentor die out in Zimbabwe on this commune.

And when he said it, my ears perked up, because John, my parents were on that commune. I made a promise to God when I was a young Christian. In school, I went to college and I met a believer who disciple me and taught me much about Jesus.

His name was David Emerson, about a year later after I had met him, he told me he was so excited, he said, I'm going to Africa, I'm going with the ministry, and we're gonna dig wells for people because they need good water, and then we'll share the gospel, and I remember the summer he left for Africa, he stopped by to see me in my hometown, to see me one more time before he left, and I felt I should get him to pray for me and bless me, he went to Africa, it was in Zimbabwe, he sent me letters, he was engaged,

he was so excited about God and the gospel. A short time later, people didn't want them in the area so they lied about them and they said they were communists, and my friend didn't believe in guards or security because he said if somebody comes and they don't know God and they get killed by security, they're lost.

People came to their farm site where they were living and they didn't want to use guns because guns were too loud, so they came with machetes and they killed... Everybody, my friend, his fiance, and about 16 other people, only two children survived that hit.

They called it the new Adam's Farm Massacre. I didn't know for sure I had, I was like, man, are there, was it a different one, but then I looked it up, and then in his second sermon, he talked about this, he talked about it way more specifically.

He named the man named David Emerson, who was on this farm, who was in fact, someone who was machete to death as a part of this massacre that happened. And the new Adam's Farm, was it sure enough it was that one, which the new Adam's Farm was a commune.

It's super weird. There's a lot of question marks that I have, it's been on my sort of investigation list for a really long time, because it's really confusing all what was going on there.

In the Ernie Groen report, so for people who don't know what the Ernie Groen report is, there was in the early 90s, there was a man, a pastor named Ernie Groen, who criticized Mike Bickle and Bob Jones, and Paul Kane and some of the early Kansas City prophets for teaching heretical practices, having abusive practices and all this sort of stuff, and he got this entire book together that went over the offenses of what this case can't, because it was before what IHOP was, but this Kansas City Fellowship, a criticized Kansas City Fellowship for all of these different things that it was doing,

and one of the things that a criticized Kansas City Fellowship for was funding the new Adam's Farm. And there was a letter by a pastor in Zimbabwe, who was really, he talked about how KCF was funding,

like bought the land that the new Adam's Farm was on, and that he was, this pastor was really worried, because he originally was like trying, he had someone who was living on that farm, and he was trying to contact them, and family were trying to contact them, and the new Adam's Farm was like, which was basically just a commune where people were working and interceding for the nations,

which is obviously very typical IHOP stuff. They were starting to get isolated. The community was getting isolated, like information that was being sent in, letters that were being sent in, were being like red and being sort of filtered by the leadership on the new Adam's Farm, and this was before everyone, before the massacre happened.

And this pastor was concerned about, and then fortunately, this pastor's friend, who was on the new Adam's Farm. was able to leave and they were able to leave safely before the massacre happened, but just a bunch of big questions about what was going on on that farm. And I know of this farm because like I said, my parents went to this farm before this was before I was born, but just before the massacre happened, I mean literally six months before the massacre happened. They went out there and they planned to be out there for several years, but their visas were denied and they had to return to the states. They

actually went to Israel first and then they returned to the United States. And their idea was maybe to go back, but my dad was my dad specifically was wanting to go out there because at the early stages of KCF, when I hop was like proto-i-hop days when it was all being formed, there was a big emphasis on communal living and it was going to look more typical to like what people think cults look like where isolated communal living where everybody sort of feeds all of their money back into the one individual and jobs are distributed amongst the people and they kind of are self-sustaining and all

that sort of stuff. So my dad went out there with my mom wanting to learn about communal living to then bring that back and and set up a farm in the United States with this sort of like similar sort of independent ecosystem that was going to be under the banner of like Kansas City Fellowship.

And that was the idea of why he got sent out there and why they were going to be out there. And then their visas were denied and they had to return back to the United States. And then basically what happened was there were local dissidents and it's unclear the political reasons, but basically local dissidents came in and killed those who were on there because they were worried you know South Africa apartheid was going on or had just apartheid I think was at its height during this time. It might have just been towards that tail end of it, but they were worried

that like these white farmers were going to like come in and take over Zimbabwe. At least that's the political motivations that I had been explained. So anyway, this is the new Adams farm. This is what this man is talking about and David Emerson was one of the only you know 16 members of the farm there. And like I was talking with my mom just recently about like this is it you know this is the same place and she was like yeah this is the same place that I was at. And so this was like a deeply embedded commune that was like deeply associated.

with the NAR and Paul Cain and Bob Jones and obviously my friend, Bickel, like it was literally funded by KCF, Kansas City Fellowship. And the fact that Vance Bolter is, now he never went to that farm, of course, but his spiritual mentor was one of the members of the farm and that he was like continually referencing this event. Like you have to be deeply tied with this sort of movement to know that phrase. And that's why people aren't talking about it. Like if you looked up the new Adams farm right now in Google, I doubt that you're going to have any articles linking to

Vance Bolter because not many people are going to make that connection. And the only reason I make that connection is because I also grew up deeply embedded into the New Aspistolic Reformation. And it's wild to me that this assassin is like one step removed from my parents is like talking about someone who was on the same farm that my parents were on that like this was in a big commune. This wasn't hundreds or even thousands of people. This was like 10, 20 people who were on this farm. And

the fact that like Bolter was referencing that was just like, yeah, no, this person was embedded into the NAR movement. And you know, I think that we can talk about all of the implications of that, but I've been talking for a bit. So I want to see if you want to jump in here and say anything.

I have so much to say, man. So before I do, I want to clear the political air. I've mentioned several times I will reiterate I am not a fan of politics in America. I'm not a fan of what this mess is.

I'm not for the left. I'm not for the right. I could care less about both parties. I think they should get rid of all of them and get some good people in there in Washington. So that's my political opinion. And everything else that I say, remember that statement. So whenever Dr. Hassan and I did the little brief summary of our combination of thoughts that I put out, I scanned through the comments and you could really clearly tell those who were arguing just for the sake of being on the left and those who are arguing who are just for the sake of being on the right. Because it's

weird when I read it because they argue without having any substance behind the argument. One of the arguments made was that the person, whether he did it or not, the government will decide this, but whether Bolter actually committed to crime, they said that he could not have been a Trump supporter because he was appointed.

to what was it called the Minnesota government's workforce development by Tim Waltz, basically. So that's a Democrat, right? But they failed to mention, or they failed to read and gather all the information. Waltz was also on his hit list.

So it appears, if you follow that out to its logical conclusion, he had planted himself into the Democratic Party for the sole purpose of getting to these people and understanding more about how it works.

The inner workings, there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye. And with that, from what I understood too, is that he was appointed to a bipartisan board. I believe the board that he was a part of was a bipartisan board, like, you know, especially in, in, if you are a Democratic senator of, um, Minnesota, Minnesota is like, yeah, a purple state, you know, it's not a blue or, like, it goes back and forth and like growing up in Missouri and Kansas and, you know, if, if you are a Democratic governor or, or

Senator or something like that, you have a lot of constituents who are Republican. So you like establish a lot of boards that have a mix of Democrats and Republican. You just don't put in everybody who thinks and acts exactly like you.

So it, I mean, it had it been flipped and vice versa and had it been a Republican senator. I would also be like, that doesn't, that doesn't mean anything either. Like, people are getting so, they need it to be one ideology or the other.

But here's the complicated thing about people is that like, but you know, I grew up in the NAR and like the NAR clearly aligns with like a lot of Republican, especially like Trump sort of rhetoric and we, you know, we have the Lance Wal-Mouse and individuals who are like super pro Trump.

I also went to Y-Wam and at Y-Wam, there was a lot of people who are not on the typical red, blue democratic, Republican spectrum because they're international. And like Bolter was an individual who was going internationally a lot.

And like this simple narrative of red versus blue is so stupid. It's so, I'm so upset by this, John, because it's just like it's, it's making conversations about very real and very important things like what is happening right now become absolutely ass nine because it isn't, it isn't as clear cut as this.

And if it is clear cut like in this particular situation, like he clearly was part of the NAR. Did he have some democratic leanings he could have, he could have also not, he could have been like a card carry.

Trump supporter and it seems like he probably was in some regards, but like even that it doesn't people within your group and your organization can do really bad things and if you are like you know I lean definitely as people have probably already told like I definitely lean left and like I'm you know I'm a huge supporter of unions and stuff like that and so like but I know for a fact there's a lot of people who are in the same political boat as me who do horrible terrible things and like when they do it's not oh let's find a way of repainting this

figure and putting him in this other category or talk about oh well it must have been a republican operative who is appearing to be democratic for this thing or not like um it's to analyze you have to be sort of like you have to be willing to understand the flaws and faults of people within your community and especially if you want a better your community so we're talking about the new apostolic reformation and we're talking about you know right wing politics and some of these you know Christian nationalists and like we're speaking to a lot of

Christians like a lot of our audience are Christian a lot of our audience is probably Republican and what this is is to like identify what are the beliefs and what are the systems of beliefs and what are the the networks that are causing these sort of violent um upbringing's whether it's sexual violence which is obviously what we've been talking about at the international house prayer for a really long time or whether it's talking about political violence which now we're talking about with Vance Bolter like we have to identify what were the beliefs what were the um

missteps that this man made and the community made that helped incite this sort of political violence um and you have to be able to put on your put on your big boy pants and recognize that like okay this this it might have to do with some beliefs that you also hold you might have to look at it and be like okay he might share some political beliefs with and you have to like look in the mirror and be like okay well where did it go wrong are there do I need to challenge some of my own beliefs or do I need to challenge my own community to be better about these sort of things

so yeah the the absolute insane propaganda that has been going on to disrupt and paint this guy this way and then if it you know or pretend like he's a patsy for this and like obviously we don't know totally what was going on maybe there's some grand conspiracy behind it but of this information that we have like we have to deal with what it appears to be reality and people just frankly are trying their or best to warp reality to fit their agendas.

And it's really deeply troubling to me. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

So I lean neither left nor right. I lean backwards, because I want to know the history. So I lean backwards. I want to know if something is going to affect me in the future, I want to know its history.

It's past. Does it have a good track record? And that's what scares the heck out of me whenever I see what is happening today. So another point that was made in the comments. And I found it kind of funny, because a lot of people who are commenting, I think, don't really know how the government works.

And sad truth is, if you read some of the press releases or statements made on Twitter by the current sitting president, even the current sitting president, does not know how the government works. So we're in this weird place in America where all of the structure that has been built for all of these centuries, they're just completely abandoning all of that, because they don't understand how democracy should work.

It's a government by the people for the people, et cetera. So ignoring all of that, and just looking at the history, the history is what scares me, because while you could say that even using the NAR, while you could say this man was connected to the NAR, and he did this horrific thing, that's not even really the true essence of what has happened here.

What we're witnessing is actually a result of the history. We're witnessing radicalization because of this merging of Christianity and politics. So let me give a, I tried to do this in the little segment that I did with Dr. Hassan, but let me go a bit deeper with the convergence of politics and religion, Christianity, that develop...

up into what became Christ for the nations, because I think a lot of people just don't really understand how powerful this is and how connected that is to the New Apostolic Reformation. Yeah. In fact, one commenter said, I was at CFNI, is it connected to the NAR?

And like, I want to respond to that, but that little tiny comment thread doesn't let me adequately describe. It's not just that it's connected. It is the very foundation that the NAR was built upon.

It's that big. So let me take a step back. Let's talk to the history here. William Brannum was mentored by, we've talked about this before, the second end command of the clan, who the clan was under complete scrutiny by the government, by the media.

The original clan, the second to tip at the clan, I should say, the 1915 clan was disbanded because of all of the scrutiny. And many of the leaders were cast out, overthrown. The Indiana clan became the head organization.

And Brannum's mentor came to Indiana, and he was actually trying to invade that sect. Indiana also was known, well known, for its Pentecostal base. You had respected Pentecostal leaders in Indianapolis. We had all of this mixture of weird religion and politics.

And they were trying to invade Pentecostalism at the point in time in which the UPC was beginning to form and shape itself. And that's why you see Brannum is touring with all of these big leaders that were what became leaders of the original United Pentecostal church.

In fact, Brannum edited a newsletter by, I think it's called the PCI, the Pentecostal preparation, whatever that is. You can go look it up. He wasn't involved in that newsletter. That was one of the organizations that was coming together with this.

Well, at the time that, and it wasn't just Pentecostalism, I'm not targeting that by no means, that's just the vehicle that was moving this forward. So in this vehicle of religion, which was very fundamentalist religion, they're mixing white supremacy notions and Pentecostalism, fundamentalist Christianity.

They're trying to brand it as not Pentecostal, but a broader base. Everybody's welcome as long as you believe are fundamentalist version of Christianity. Well, at the same time that is being developed, you also have in the United States Christian identity, which was the notion that the United States should be treated as its own Christian

domain. We need to take control of this because we are the descendants of the lost ten tribes of Israel. That was actually a doctrine back then. Is that mixed with racism? They started to say our kingdom has been overthrown by the ones who aren't of the lost ten tribes of Israel.

We need to take it back. We need to take control back, much like you see in today's politics where they want to claim dominion over the United States, they were doing it back then.

This exploded in the early 40s because Franklin Delano Roosevelt, they felt, was leading America into a way in which they would lose control completely and was bringing in liberal Christianity, etc. So they fought all the harder to invade politics.

So what we're seeing today with the merging of Christianity and politics, it's almost to the same level, but not yet quite as what it was in the 40s. Gordon Lindsay, the founder of Christ for the Nations, was deeply embedded into this Christian identity doctrine.

And this magnum mistake was a very, very racist doctrine. They believe that Eve had made it with the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and that produced cane, which was, they believe, the evil bloodline, and that lineage could be traced through ham, which back then many of the scholars believed to be people with black skin in Africa.

So that has now entered into Christianity. And Lindsay is speaking at key conferences for big, big organizations and Christian identity. Right after all of this is happening, you have this explosion of laterane where William Brannum suddenly gets lifted into popularity, he gets connected to Gordon Lindsay.

Gordon Lindsay and Brannum form this union where, wherein Lindsay becomes Brannum's campaign manager, and Brannum took the name of the column that he was writing in the Pentecostal organization, which was called, I think America's Voice for Healing or the Voice for Healing, something like this, they created an entire newsletter called The Voice of Healing to promote Brannum campaigns.

Lindsay was a mastermind in how to make this grow exponentially. So he turned this into a pyramid scheme where he and Brannum were at the top. Brannum was the editor or the publisher, I think, and he was assistant editor, something like this.

This went on until Brannum got so busy and popular in the laterane movement, he did not have time to edit, publish, Gordon Lindsay took that over, and Lindsay created a pyramid scheme wherein many numerous, I've lost count, it's probably in the thousands of apostles, prophets, evangelists, all of that structure.

Now you can, you have an organization where you can come together under this and it's called Interdenominational. So what we have is a network wherein you can be any denomination of faith except Catholic If you're not a Catholic and you join us, I don't know what happened if they were passing money under the table or what, but there was clearly a structure where some were preferred over others and once you got in that structure, you were guaranteed a ministry basically.

It created what later developed into what is called the Apostolic Networks of the New Apostolic Reformation. It caused this Reformation that gave it that, that CPter word, that name gave it that name, right?

Well, that entity, that organization after a period of time, and especially after Brannum died, this turned into something different, but at over time, as this thing is growing, it transitions into the Christ for the nation's institute.

Brannum and Lindsay were holding deliverance conferences where they were teaching how to cast out demons or whatever is the nonsense that they claimed, and you could come to this and be trained, and that became the Christ for the nation's institute school.

So whenever the news media says that this assassin had went to Christ for the nation school, he was going to the thing that Brannum and Lindsay had created. Yeah. I think that, man, I love talking to you about this because you obviously are so knowledgeable about it, and I've had conversations with people who, like, deny the NAR's existence and are like, no, it's not a thing, and we, you know, obviously, it's always hard because I'm like, I literally grew up in it, so it's hard to say it doesn't exist.

It's like all of the major leaders, here's my test to know whether or not something is a part of the NAR is, did I go and stay at that person's house while traveling with my dad?

Like, that's a good indication for me, obviously, that's not the best category for it, but like Heidi Baker or Bill Johnson, you know, looingle, Paul Kane, well, I didn't say I had Paul Kane's house, but Paul Kane was at my house, so that, you know, Bob Jones, all of these individuals, like, it's so funny when people are like, oh, it's not real, and it's like, I literally saw us all interact, and my dad would talk about prophetic round tables where all of these dudes were meeting, and it's like literally all the usual suspects.

But one thing that I think that people stumble on is that, like, Wagner obviously was very important in naming the New Apostolic Reformation, but like, people look at Wagner as the father of the movement, which he was not the father of the movement.

No, but he was, he named it and helps, like, under, you know, gave us the New Apostolic Reformation name, and he wrote about it in more like academic senses, but this movement really was, started by Brannum and Lindsay and they paved the way for the whole NAR movement.

And so when you look at the Christ for the Nations Institute, I mean, it's really like, I liked what you said where this was not just a part of the New Apostolic Reformation.

This was really the heartbeat, the epicenter of where it began. And so like the fact that, you know, it's not a coincidence that Bolter was connected with like the roots of some of the most like, frankly, violent form of Christian nationalism that we've had in American history that helped birth the New Apostolic Reformation Movement.

Like, it's not just the coincidence that he was involved in. I think it's crazy, John, that like, and people can see this. You and I were talking about militarism and militaristic language. I think it was like two podcast episodes ago, maybe three, where we were literally talking because we were talking about Lance Walnell and Dominionism and Y-Wam and Christian Dominionism and how I was like, this is a dangerous thing.

And if you don't want it to be dangerous, stop using violent political language. Like, and we literally were talking about this a week before, or you know, a month before someone who's deeply connected with the same movement we were talking about, literally goes and assassinates a political figure in American politics or two political figures and their spouses.

I mean, four people were killed because of this man. And he had a list, like he said, of 20 something, or I can't remember if it was 20 or 50 or, but you know, had obviously a list of like, he thought that he was going to go and purge, you know, these Jezebel spirit individuals.

You know, like, it's so funny because I don't want to put words in his mouth, like, I don't know what his manifesto or whatever was. They've like clearly not released that. But I, it's not hard for me to imagine what rhetoric he could be using because it's literally the rhetoric that I grew up with.

And I know people were pushing back, even in like our comments, people were pushing back, maybe it wasn't our comments, but maybe it was something else that I posted on my Twitter or something, but I remember people pushing back about militaristic language and being like, oh, just everyone does it.

That's just like, that's how the, the New Testament talks this way. And it's like, you know, it doesn't. That's not what, like this is, very a very specific brand of Christianity. And like, yes, it's been normalized.

And especially if you grew up in the new Apostolic Reformation or sort of auxillary Pentecostal communities, you have heard the terms of spiritual warfare and become so inundated in the terms of spiritual warfare that you forget that it is warfare.

Like it's talked about like it's warfare. I know that people talk about abortion. Like it is a genocide that is happening in the United States.

And there's people who are talking about the fighting against the Babylon spirit or fighting against the Jezebel spirit that has taken over. I mean, Louis Engel talks super extremely militaristic

about this and it's always couched and very political and now explicitly political terms with Trump and whatnot where it's like there's a good team and there's a bad team. And this bad team is trying to divide the American church and is trying to corrupt and destroy and rip out the moral epicenter of the United States.

And we need to fight against it. We need to take back what is ours. We need to contend with the heavens and bring it down to earth and we need to invade every sphere of society.

And like maybe if someone's preaching that, maybe you have an audience of 5,000 people who, you know, let's say 99% are just thinking spiritual terms. That it's just purely spiritual, purely spiritual warfare that are not thinking literal warfare.

Well, even if you have 1% of that group who's like, okay, but let's just translate, like, let's take this literally, let's take the things that they're saying that we need to fight back. We need to invade, right?

We need to have warfare. I mean, 1% of 5,000 people, a congregation of 5,000 people, that's 50 people who are in their heads thinking about the violent sort of, let's take it back.

And I know people are going to push back on this, maybe not in our audience because I think that people who have been listening to you and I understand, because like if you've been paying attention to the sexual violence that's been excused in the new apostolic reformation community, it's not as crazy to think that it would spur political violence.

And that's exactly what happened. John is like, when I grew up hearing all of this language, that felt very spiritual and metaphorical only to find out that the... eaters of the community were using that language literally to sexually abuse individuals in their community.

They weren't talking about it metaphorically, they were using it, like Mike Bickle used literal prophecies about the death of his wife to manipulate and groom young teenagers to be in a relationship with him or coerced, you know, to abuse them.

So like we've seen that transition of like radical language, that's radical spiritual language, become radical abusive language and radical violent language. And so it is not at all surprising to me that there's people who are taking that radical language and using it to condone the sort of radical violent tendencies and desires that they have.

And again, I don't know the psychology of Bolter, but I know the language that he was using and I know that he at least to some extent felt this permission to pursue these sort of violent tendencies based off of the violent rhetoric of the community that he was radicalized in.

We literally that he became a radical Christian in was this new epitome. He even said that himself in one of his messages, he talks about how he was a Christian before he sort of met this community and or he talks about how he was like culturally Christian and that he went to church and he kind of read his Bible, but he didn't become on fire for the Lord.

He didn't become radicalized until his sort of new apostolic reformation, meaning where he went to Christ for the nations Institute and he talked with David Emerson, the individual who was on the new Adam's farm in Zimbabwe.

That was the instance in which he started to become radicalized. The problem that we have today is that and you can see it clearly in the comments, when people have become radicalized, they cannot process and understand what is radicalization because they've become radicalized.

The similarities, again, back to what created Christ for the nations, it's unbelievable, if you think about it. Back in the 40s, as this was developing into a climax, which happened in around 1944-1945, people were becoming radicalized just like they were today.

The Christian identity leaders were talking about how the United States had become overrun by these, this is an offensive word, but that's what they believe. They believe that these were mongrels, that these mongrels had come in basically whoever was not of our Christian identity mindset.

In the cult's mind, it's us versus them, in Christian identity, that's exactly what was. You had anybody who is in government who did not believe with your religious ideology, which happened to be Christian identity. And back then, the big things were basically, so evolution was one of the things. Like today, the homosexual issue is the number one political issue. Back then, it was more about evolution. The Scopes trial, all of this is linked to the same history. Well, what happened is, because the churches and many political organizations were inciting violence against the government, they wanted to claim dominion against the government,

they wanted to take back control. They were doing the same exact thing they're doing today. That's actually a, in law, that's a felony. You cannot incite violence where you cannot, you cannot incite people to rebel against the authority of the state leadership. But the problem was, it became so widespread, what do you do about this? You basically have this wide swath where a majority of the nation has ministers who are preaching against the government.

And this turned into a huge problem. Well, in 1944, this developed into what became called the Great Sedition trial of 1944. Key figures who are tied to brannemism were involved in this thing. And they were Christian identity leaders. They were trying to, the Fuller Institute, where C. Peter Wagner came out of, Charles Fuller was working directly with one of the guys tied to this Great Sedition trial, one of the key figures who's promoting the most violence against the government, one of the most outspoken ones. So this is no different than what we see today.

And oddly, we're in the same exact scenario. You have so many ministers who are, who are speaking of sedition. They are literally wanting to overthrow the authority of the government, which is a felony. And there's so many of them that the government can't stop them.

Stop, how do you stop this? You stop them and you have this big outcry, right? So we're in the same exact scenario that we had back in the 1940s. The issues are all different, but the setup for the issues is the same. The irony is that the organizations and institutes that are causing what we see today came from the same, they descended from that same tree.

So that's where this gets really weird because it's as though this this threat against the United States, it pre-existed back in the 40s. Well, now it is coming back again, like a snake to bite to bite the government's head. It's coming back again just in a completely different form.

Because it's so, like you said, because it's so widespread, it's like, what do we, what do we do about it? And because it's not a denomination, right? You know, you can't, can't be like, hey, this is this particular swath and don't denomination is like preaching this thing, we can kind of like target that and try to have reformation, whether it be through even like you and I talking, like, we can't call out like, what's the big assemblies of God?

Like if assemblies of God, that's a denomination and if like all of this was stemming from assemblies of God community and so, you know, there was just a shooter who was an assemblies of God shooter, whatever, we could kind of go to the denomination and we could kind of call out the structure and leadership there to have sort of this accountability to change their language and to be accountable for the sort of violent rhetoric and that they're sharing and there would be systems of accountability, whether or not that would happen.

I don't, you know, it's not like it's straight forward and easy to sort of solve these problems, but I mean, this is what happened when I was, I saw this happen with my dad when my dad was, you know, a appointed minister by all of these different ministries, Bethel and the International House Prayer and Morningstar in particular and Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle and, and Rick Joyner, respectively, when my dad was, was kind of falling off, really going crazy and starting to abuse people and sexually abuse individuals, which I 've talked about that story before on here. And I was calling

these leaders and being like, hey, don't let this individual come to your campus, don't let them, you know, speak out against them. And, and, and my dad was a prophetic fraud and like you need to tell people and warn people because like my dad is still coasting off of the, the sort of authority that you gave him, the answer was incredibly similar across the board. And it was like, we don't have anything to do with him. We don't have any authority over him, like sure, he shared our platform, but a lot of people shared our platform, like, you know, almost

like Bob Hartley, who's Bob Hartley, as if I hadn't just met with them, you know, weeks previously or months previously with with my dad and seen them, my dad minister to them. But it was this sort of like your dad is accountable to himself and to himself alone. Because the new apostolic reformation is this sort of inner denominational or non-denominational collection of all of these kings and their various castles and all of the these leaders of their many cult franchises, there is no way to keep it accountable.

So like, do you think Bill Johnson is going to see what Vance Bolter did and see that Vance Bolter was connected to Christ for the nation's institute? And do you think Bill Johnson is going to be like, hey, when I talked about invading Earth and invading the seven mountains of society, this is not what I meant.

This, I want to be very clear that it shouldn't be political and like, we need to be careful. Do you think Bill Johnson's going to say that? Absolutely not, like literally zero chance that he takes any sense of accountability.

Even though he is on Christ for the nation's institutes webpage, like he is there, he's a speaker there and they give material there. And Heidi Baker is this, you know, you scroll to the bottom and it's like, oh, look who's to hear the usual suspects of Bill Johnson and Heidi Baker and all of these.

And do you think that they're going to, they're going to pretend like it's disconnected. They're going to pretend like, oh, this individual, we don't have any idea who he is. Vance Bolter, like, oh, maybe he was a part of it, but this has nothing to do with us and I doubt they'll even acknowledge it.

I doubt that anyone will even say anything. I doubt CFNI will, the Christ for the nation's institute. I doubt they will ever say anything about it because it's just like there's zero sense of accountability and frankly, the media doesn't know how to address it because they don't understand the nuances of these political or these religious groups because Christian denominationalism is like so complicated like when I talk about what the difference between the neo-charismatic movement versus the Pentecostal movement versus the evangelical movement and I talk to someone who's not, and maybe they're like orthodox Christianity or they're non-Christian or they're Catholic

or something like that, they're eyes gloss over because they're just like, I don't give a shit about all of these different denominations and I don't care and this is all kind of the same thing and it's all these nutty Christians and it's like, so, so, so, Bolter will be branded as a conservative Christian rather than branding him for what he is which is a new Apostolic Reformation Christian.

And so it kind of leads into the whole new Apostolic Reformation movement. It, they kind of get off scotch free because they don't, there's not gonna be specific accountability. No one's gonna look up the new Adam's farm.

and make the connection. Nobody at CNN is going to be like, huh, what was this? And what group was he affiliated with? I mean, maybe some people will or won't, but also there's so much violence going on now, you know, two months from now, maybe this won't even be a political issue. But for me, man, this is just, I mean, we literally were talking about all of these things, John. We Christ for the nation's institute. Guess what it also is? I'm sorry, I'm being a terrible podcast dialogue, individual, because I'm just monologuing here, but final point before. But

Christ for the nation's institute is literally a diploma mill, like it isn't accredited. And we were just talking about this. Now it's a little bit different. It's in the sort of same vein as like Bethel, Bethel Supernatural School Ministry and IHOPs, you former and like Y-WAM, all of these, where they're not necessarily pretending to be like a conventional institution as much, where it's like we don't even want to claim we're accredited. Fortunately, they don't say that they're accredited, and then it lands well now, who accredits them, you know, or maybe they do, I don't know. But like,

I was looking at it and I was reading about Christ for the nation's institute, and they specifically were like, we're not accredited, we're not pursuing accreditation. And we have like crossover, and they were like, if you go to Y-WAM, you can transfer your credits and they have different partnerships with oral Roberts University and stuff like that. But I mean, we were literally talking about all of these things. We were talking about Christian nationalism. We were talking about, you know, the violent rhetoric of Christian nationalism and how especially that's been used, like we were talking about Uganda and the how people who they were going to

establish laws in Uganda that was going to criminalize homosexuality. And there was going to be violence perpetuated very much using the rhetoric of Christian, and like Christian missionaries from the international house of prayer who went to Uganda were like, had a definitive impact on sort of this movement to criminalize homosexuality in Uganda and like how that can become very quickly and very easily violent. And then you have all these people push, push up their hands, be like, oh, that's not what we were talking about. This isn't, this isn't what we were saying. But you have

people like me and you who are like, well, then don't use violent language. Don't talk militaristically. Don't talk about invading. Don't talk about warfare. Don't talk about, you know, the, the Jezebel casting out the Jezebel spirit and and using very like violent imagery to do that.

If you don't, if you aren't ready to be accountable for the violence that then is perpetuated. in the name of all of that movement and all of that rhetoric. Absolutely. And more to the point, you were involved with this type of thing.

I was involved, so I understand how this works. The news media will have trouble connecting all of these dots, because if you go look at the literature, it's going to be completely whitewashed of anything that might incite violence.

For the same exact reasons that I mentioned earlier, you can't do this because it is a felony in the United States to do this. Right, right. They won't do this, but as we have mentioned in the podcast that you're talking about, what these people do and the reason why the news media misses it, they will have their published documentation where here's what we believe, here's how we stand for it, we're peaceful, all of this stuff.

Well, what they do is then they charge the sermons, they politically charge the sermons by taking passages from the Bible that talk about very violent things that happened, especially in the Old Testament. And then they will, in the same sermon, transition to talking about and we need to pray for the things that are happening today and they make references where people connect the two in their minds.

So just as in the Bible days, they carried shields and swords and went and attacked the enemy and God helped them trample over the enemy and their bodies lay in the fields. Well, they have made the same associations to the political leaders of today.

And because it's separate, they're talking in one part of the sermon, they're talking about the Old Testament and then another part, they're talking about, and please pray for those today, even though that's separate, it is inciting the same levels of violence and they're very, very tactful in how they do that, because it is a felony.

I think that the whole system needs to be re-evaluated as to what what you can legally do behind a pulpit and what you can't legally do. But I'm in the minority on that. However, that would make a great podcast.

We should probably add that to our list and talk about that in the future. Yeah, but what do we do about this? And because I agree with you. But you know, like a lot of, in the past, we've seen things be illegal and this community almost uses any sort of political or legal repercussions to their, like Jack Coe being put in prison and him being using it as like the state is persecuting me for healing all of these people.

But that's a whole can of worms that we should probably unpack and give it its own time. So yeah, that sounds great. It's a can of worms. We will open later. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of... new Apostolic Reformation, including almost everything that we've talked about today. You can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

You can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.