Jesus Movement: Secret Threads of Branhamism

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of ChristianGospelChurch.org and the author of Come Out of Her My People. Charles, usually it is Bob that I get together with whenever we want to say things that just step on everyone's toes. And today you have put me in a predicament where we are going to step on everyone's toes. Yet you gave

me the guardrails of we have to do it in such a way that doesn't step on everyone's toes. So I've been preparing for this somewhat in my head. How do we do this? How do we talk about the Jesus movement, John Wimber, all of these things? And do it in such a way that people will actually listen. And I'm not going to say that I'm going to do it perfectly, but I'm going to say that I am going to try. Well, it was pretty funny, John. Yeah, I know you we've talked so many times. I mean, probably like two years we've talked about whether or not to

record episodes on this. But here we are at long last John, you know, I've I have always I have felt like if we just talk about, you know, kind of up through the shepherding movement, more or less, that everyone with, you know, common sense can connect all the rest of the dots, you know, because I feel like it's kind of obvious, right? But we will just connect the rest of the dots here in real, you know, start connecting them in a real plane way of how you get from the ladder rain via the shepherding movement. And others will talk about into the

new apostolic reformation. And today you're right, John. We got to talk about the Jesus people. We've got to talk about the Jesus people. And I want to give a real quick disclaimer here at the very front of this, John, you know, like I'm so reluctant to talk about this. I mean, of all of the of all the ones we record, I'm super reluctant to talk about this in part. And I just want to explain why one of the reasons is, you know, what William Brown did to us, right? What did he do?

He is a man who presented himself as an authority on things. He wasn't an authority on. He's somebody who pretended to know things and have special inside and advanced knowledge on topics where the truth was he was just conning us all, just tricking us all, right? I mean, he didn't really know all that stuff. And he was just like, he was like, sloppily putting stuff together out of his library books, right?

and presenting himself as a false authority. And so I am like, I am so reluctant, John, to like repeat the kind of practices of the cult leader where we come from, right? And so that is part of the reason like I am so reluctant to talk about these guys.

In part, because while there's aspects of this, I know a lot about, there's other aspects of it. I'm just not all that familiar with. And it is also very hard for me to relate to some aspects of this.

Even though I, like I've read, I know, I find it impossible to relate to some of this stuff because, John, a drug addicted hippie living a free love lifestyle in the 1960s, it's like the polar opposite, John, of me and you and the rest of the cult we come from.

Like there is no common denominator there. Like there is nothing. There is no common, like, and to me, John, like I just cannot even wrap my mind around how that even is, you know, like what motivates that I just don't even, it's fun.

I fundamentally do not understand and how people that come from that background could ever be perceived as great authorities while continuing to engage in that lifestyle. It's just very hard for me to wrap my mind around how that's even a thing, right?

So that, I guess is disclaimer number one. There's things there I just don't fully grasp and I don't wanna repeat the errors of our false profit, by presenting myself as an authority on something where I'm just not that, you know, it's still some pieces of that are fuzzy to me.

But nevertheless, the trail to the NAR and the teachings that we believed in the message, they come down this line and there is a very easily and well-documented way to show how all this happened.

And the critical path to forming the NAR goes through the Jesus movement. And so yeah, we're gonna talk about that today. Not to pair at Bob Scott. I think I would need a big, bushy, white beard to do that properly, but it all comes down to a matter of perspective.

Our perspective is a bit different from everybody else because we were in this isolationist Doomsday cult that really we had a skewed perspective of the outside world. Well, all other Christians are developing and growing and mainstream churches, Christians are taught to better themselves and to become better Christians.

We're taught that we are to prepare ourselves for the coming end of days and we will be the elite and we will trample out over all of the ashes of all of these people that claim to be Christian and are believing in Jesus Christ.

And we're manipulated to believe that believing on Jesus Christ isn't enough. They needed to believe the profit. So therefore, they're doomed. So it's a matter of perspective, but what I have decided to do for this, I'm going to put on one of my different hats.

Usually, I... talk about the history, and I scatter the facts as they're present, but what I have come to understand is that deliverance ministry is the issue here and indoctrination. So when we were in the Brannum cult, we were indoctrinated, and we had a Brannum's flavor of deliverance ministry.

We were taught that everything's an angel or a demon. If you stub your toe, that was a demon. That was out to get you. Every single thing that can happen is, you know, bad to use a demon, everything good is because an angel was watching.

But the problem is, when you live that way and your view is that way, you then also demonize people. And when you demonize people, you overanalyze what they say, because what if there's an accidental demon just hiding deep inside of them and they say something that's going to draw you away from the religion that you believe?

That's a demon out to get you. That person has a demon. But you can't, it's like, I use this analogy and I don't think many people get it, but I love the show, Battle Star Galactica, especially the remake in the 90s.

And the evil enemy race had infiltrated the United States, but you couldn't tell. One person might look like a normal human being, but they might be this Android that's out to get them. And then as they escape the United States, well, some of them got on board, well, which ones are good, which ones are bad.

You don't know this type of religion manipulates you to that mindset. Everybody has the potential of being your enemy and you have to very cautiously listen to what they say, because if you find something that you can assume is going to disagree with your belief set, that's a demon, they're demonized.

That's Deliverance Ministry 101. Well, anytime I talk about the Jesus movement or John Wimber, I have put on my historian hat and I'm just presenting the facts, but if those facts do not align with what people have been taught, well, instantly they assume I have a demon and they shut it all off.

And so for this podcast, what I have decided to do is instead of focusing that direction, I'm just going to talk about perspective because there are, you know, some history will have to be mixed in with it, obviously, but there are some perspectives that I think people will understand as we get into it.

So as we get started today, John, last episode, we talked about the shepherding movement. And we talked, I talked about that in detail because the shepherding movement is one of the main branches of the ladder rain movement.

And I explained to you in the last episode how one of the elders of Sharon orphanage went and co-pastured a church with Derek Prince, with support of earned backster during the 1960s. And that is where the kernels, really, of shepherding movement were born.

And the guys who all formed the shepherding movement. had had had all come together and were working together by the mid 1960s, right? You'll you'll find a lot of sources that tell you that didn't start happen until the 70s, but that's not true. They were together and all this was started by the mid 60s and somewhat earlier than that. The kernels of it go back to the mid 50s, but the the group of them had started by the by the mid 60s.

And Derek Prince was was by thought was the most senior guy in it. The most prominent for pop byolarizing the ideas and spreading it. But I said that today I was going to talk about a man named Bob Mumford a bit. And that's who that's who I'm going to first talk about Bob Mumford before we get to the Jesus people. So Bob Mumford, who is Bob Mumford? So you've heard us talk before in the podcast about the Elon missionary fellowship, right? And and when we've talked about that before, we've mentioned how when the latter rain kicked off, it actually completely took over two

denominations. One of the denominations that the latter rain took over was the independent assemblies of God, which really was the main trunk of the movement. The other denomination, which they took over, was the Elon missionary fellowship, which was not a super big group, but they were they were a large size group. They had churches both in Europe and North America.

The Elon missionary fellowship and the connections they are back to branemism and everything are very important to note. William Brannum, one of his very first campaign managers was W.E. Kitson, right? He was originally the general general secretary of Pentecostal assemblies that merged to form the UPC. Well, W.E. Kitson, after he worked with branem, went and joined Elon as one the pastor of one of their most important churches. And his son-in-law was a man named Henry Gordon McGee. And these two men were very important ministers in the Elon fellowship. And so there was from the latter rain, not only a latter rain influence, but a

very important branemism influence into the Elon missionary fellowship. And as far as I know, I mean, Elon still reveres William Brannum to the present day. Well, Bob Monford comes from there. That is where Bob Monford comes from. He comes from one of the two denominations that have been completely taken over by latter rain, which key people close to William Brannum were in leadership roles in it. And we're really deeply influenced by all of that stuff. That's where Bob Monford comes from. And Bob Monford coming from that background joins the shepherding movement and becomes one of

the top five leaders in the shepherding movement. Okay? And he is living in California in Los Angeles during the summer of love when the Jesus people movement starts. Okay? And so I'm just going to set that to a side. And then we're going to start talking about the Jesus movement. And Bob Monford is going to come back into it. But Bob Monford is deep in latter rain. He has well-documented connections back to branemism. And he is connected to- to, you know, he's one of the five who would really work directly with leaders out of Sharon Orphanage at one point in his path.

So there he is in Los Angeles when the Jesus people movement starts. So what is the Jesus people movement? I mean, just assume that nobody knows John. So the Jesus people movement is basically in 1967, that was the summer of love, or two years after William Brownham has died, and I don't know how many, a million kids run away from home all over America.

They hitchhike to Los Angeles, and they live a carefree life of drug, sex, and rock and roll on the streets all summer long. I mean, that's the summer of love, John. And, you know, they're high on LSD and everything else, you know, they are practicing nudism, you know, I mean, it is just, you know, a, from the message perspective, it's very hard to wrap your mind around what that was, but that's what it was, you know, and as that's happening, you have the Jesus movement starts there.

There are people doing Christian outreach to that group to try and, I don't know, I'm sure they might have had some good motives, right? These are kids who've run away from home, a lot of them are hungry, they have nowhere to live, and a lot of the way that the early Jesus people attracted all other people was, they were offering free meals and places to stay to all these homeless hungry hippies, okay?

And, and the hungry homeless hippies wanted some food and a roof, and so they would come and endure a sermon in order to get some free food. I mean, this is how it started.

I mean, I know a lot of people, I think they kind of, from my perspective, they spiritualize it and all this stuff, I don't really see that. I see a bunch of hungry people, John, looking for a free meal, and then God maybe used the free meal to save their souls at the end of the day.

But here they come, you know, for free meals, and they, they attract a lot of people. And there are a number of people there in the Los Angeles area who are getting in on that action.

And of course, we know Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, all that in that point in time. But I really especially want to focus on Lonnie Frisbee. So Lonnie Frisbee, if you look at most histories, Lonnie Frisbee, they will call him the face of the Jesus movement, and they'll call him the catalyzing figure of the Jesus movement.

He is perhaps the most critical person to the whole thing. Now that's not to say that other people weren't important, like other people, I think, truly were equally important. But Lonnie Frisbee was critical to this thing at the beginning, right?

And as this kicks off, Lonnie Frisbee gets invited in to work with Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel at the very beginning, essentially. becomes a notable face in in the Jesus movement very early on. Well, Lonnie Frisbee was in the shepherding movement, John.

Lonnie Frisbee was a disciple of Bob Monford. Lonnie Frisbee, so from the very beginning the key figures in the Jesus people movement came straight out we're out of the shepherding movement and I would go so far as to say Lonnie Frisbee was was a lifelong shepherding disciple even. He at a certain point he packed up and he moved to he moved Fort Lauderdale and he sat under the direct mentorship of Derek Prince for I think three or four years even right through all of this.

And so what you have John in the early days as the Jesus people kicks off I feel like to some extent the shepherding movement targeted even Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment in those days they they came after him and if you if you read through like you know even Lonnie Frisbee's testimonies and stuff I think it's fair to say that they targeted Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment because Bob Monford and several of the others of the top leaders of the shepherding movement they had been approaching Chuck Smith and they had been trying to get invitations to speak at the Jesus people conventions and Chuck Smith

rebuffed them wouldn't let them speak you know and we can we can debate Chuck Smith's motives right around all of that but whatever the case Chuck Smith would not let the shepherding leaders come speak at his Jesus people events and so they started using Lonnie Frisbee as a backdoor John that's absolutely what they did. They used Lonnie Frisbee as a backdoor to get access to the Jesus people and so they would use Lonnie Frisbee on the sidelines to have Jesus people events outside of Calvary Chapel in which Lonnie Frisbee would attract the people and he would share the stage with the headlining top

shepherding movement guys and so from the very beginning you have a faction of the Jesus people who are being deeply influenced by the shepherding movement John and and to be honest a whole lot of that has to do with the whole break down in the relationship between Chuck Smith and Lonnie Frisbee. Essentially the breakdown of relationship was the early leaders there around Chuck Smith rejected the shepherding movement influence and and be and they were unhappy with Lonnie Frisbee. It wasn't simply that Lonnie Frisbee was just into you know miracles and stuff.

Lonnie Frisbee was in the shepherding movement and he was bringing in the top leading guys of the shepherding movement and they actually had some you know pretty strong disagreements over that stuff and that is why they a big part of why they initially parted company.

Now there's a whole lot more a person can say about that John. There's a whole lot more person could say about Chuck Smith there you know but essentially somewhere along the way Calvary Chapel did start to kind of

reject that shepherding movement influence but And that influence remained in the Jesus movement, and it moved on to another stage, which we're going to talk about here in a few minutes later. And that stage that was rejected by Calvary Chapel, you know, and they went on their path, the stage that the piece that was rejected, that is what then leads on the critical path to the new apostolic reformation.

So let's talk a minute about perspective, Charles. You are an oddity. And for those who think I just insulted Charles, this is actually a compliment in this case. So we left a destructive cult, the cult following a William Brannum.

And when you leave a cult, there are people who really need help. And at the same time, there are people who, their internal makeup, their personality is that to be a leader, yet in the cult, that leadership was really suppressed.

And you had, you had rank and fall members who were told you're nothing, but if you knew the prophet, you had instant leadership. That's how it worked. Well, when you leave, the door opens, and suddenly you find yourself in a position where you can help other people.

The problem is, and this is a widespread problem from, from my own personal opinion and assessment. There are people who were indoctrinated in the cult following a William Brannum. Then when they leave, they realize and recognize that many of the things that they were taught was completely false, and they wipe them away, but they leave many elements of the foundation intact.

So when they leave and they start to lead, if they try to become a spiritual guide to people who have left, yes, they've wiped away some of the false things, but their foundation is still very much aligned with what Brannumism had.

And this turns into a huge problem because they've not really re-examine their doctrine. Because it's an oddity because he has, and so you can clearly hear it on the podcast. So take that perspective and apply it to the shepherding movement.

So here's a movement that is led by figures, like you said, that were deeply connected to William Brannum. Earned Backster was Brannum's partner in all of this, and from the perspective of people who had no issues with this, had a good time with the shepherding movement, I've had people tell me this was a wonderful thing.

Their perspective is, it's good. These people, yes, they had some similarities between Brannumism, but this was nothing like Brannumism. But on the flip side, you talk to anybody who has been burned by the destructive nature of the shepherding movement.

I'll tell you, this was Brannumism 2.0. They were doing the same things, but they had shifted their doctrine some. And what they're describing essentially is, these men left Brannumism, they did not clear their foundation, they did not build proper theological roots.

But they shifted doctrine enough so it looked very much different. And here you have... Chuck Smith, who was Paul Cain's campaign manager, who was Paul Cain. Paul Cain was one of the figures who William Brannum trusted to go into other countries in his stead.

He was basically Brannum's protégé. So Chuck Smith is managing Paul Cain. He's seeing Brannumism. He knows what Brannumism is. He leaves Brannumism. And like you said, there's this weird rift that happens here. He is very much in that position, kind of like me.

He's looking at all of this stuff. And he's seeing that a lot of this that I see in the shepherding movement, it really matches that that I had in Brannumism. But yet at the same time, Chuck Smith still has that influence. And so it's very much like multiple people leaving a cult.

Each one has a different perspective. And depending on whether you enjoyed it or whether you were burned by it, it changes your viewpoint. And for me, looking at it from the outside looking in, all I see is it is a continuation that got better in some ways, retained the bad in some ways. But at the same time, it became different. And as you look at how it became different, it turns into this weird oddity that develops into eventually into the NAR. But it develops into this weird mess where you're following hippies and drug addicts and nudists and who knows what all

else. In Chuck, Chuck Smith's defense, he's doing this and he's trying to separate himself from what was Brannumism. But at its core, as we'll get into it, this deliverance theme that is here, there are elements of that that continue into the ministry. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum

Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I try to be very specific, especially when we talk about

the groups that's outside of the message who are still around in a big way. I try to be very specific. So the message was not a cult because we had- a prophet who told us a bunch of made up stories. That's not what made it a cult, okay? We weren't a cult because William Brannum told us a bunch of fake stories. We were a cult because of the structure that enabled all the abuse and empowered the leaders and brainwashed the people. That is what made the message a cult. And for me, John, as I've mentioned quite a number of times, I have in my

viewpoint, I can kind of boil it back to three things in combination, produce the cult in the message. And I believe it's the same three things that make it a cult. Everywhere else it goes in this ideology. Number one, you need your authoritarian leadership model. Fifold ministry is that elite authoritarian leadership model. You need the brainwashing tool. That's what positive confession is, which is lays at the very heart of those deliverance teachings. Positive confession is a brainwashing technique. And the last thing you need, though, is you need that carrot that everybody's chasing that produces a lot of radical behavior. And in the message in these

other groups, that's the manifested sons of God. And you need all three of those things together, I think, in order to get the most destructive outcomes of this ideology. You look anywhere the those three things go together, it inevitably ends up in a destructive cult. There is not a group in the world with those three things that has not turned into a destructive cult. It's not out there, right? It's not out there. And when you look at the shepherding movement, John, they had five foot, they had the authoritarian leadership model, five foot, they had the positive

confession strong, but you know what? They had a very weak version of manifested sons of God, okay? Compared to the rest of the latter ray movement. They had a very watered down version of that. And that naturally produces somewhat of a different phase, depending on how much an individual shepherding group went into manifested sons of God. Some of them went into it a lot, and they became like the assembly body of Christ, and they are absolute nuts, who do horrible things to children, you know? But others never went quite that deep into it, right? Like you look

maybe it Charles Simpson's group, right? Like they they didn't quite go so deep into manifested sons of God, and therefore a little less crazy. Well, when you look at the Jesus movement, John, they took the influence through Lonnie Frisbee and these others we're going to talk about. They took in the fivefold ministry, they imbibed that. They also imbibed the cop positive confession, because out of the early shepherding movement, but they also had almost no manifested sons of God concept in their early days, okay? And the absence of that or in any sort of a strong way in their

early days, I think helped keep it from being too destructive at the very first. Now manifested sons of God is going to make its comeback into these groups, and we're we'll talk through that.

I don't know that we'll get there in this episode, but it but it's the bringing in of that influence, which happens a couple decades later, that that starts and on the path that produces the new apostolic reformation.

But when you're back there at the beginning, in the early days around Lonnie Frisbee and the people around him, he's not the only ones. Scott Ross is another prominent early shepherding hippie guy who imbibed all this.

And we're going to talk about John Wimber. John Wimber is another guy who went down this road. In fact, he's the most important one of all who went down this road. They imbibed this stuff and they bring it in and they start to produce a faction of the Jesus people movement who ends up breaking away from Calvary Chapel.

And let me go just a little bit deeper too. So where is Calvary Chapel headquartered and where was Lonnie Frisbee at when all this stuff started? Costa Mesa, California. Now, who else is headquartered in Costa Mesa, California?

The full gospel businessman. Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a coincidence. It's a coincidence. The full gospel businessman were right there and the full gospel businessman were doing conferences then. And the shepherding movement leaders came there to the full gospel businessman to do their stuff.

I mean, the full gospel businessman were very supportive of shepherding people back the beginning of all this. And the shepherding leaders were also in Costa Mesa because the full gospel businessman headquarters were there, they were frequently there.

And that's how they were intersecting with the early Jesus movement. And I'm telling you, they targeted Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment and you can even go back. They threw a lot of money at Lonnie Frisbee.

Different full gospel business leaders gave Lonnie Frisbee tens of thousands of dollars back then. They did, they primed the pump to get him to let them in, okay? And that's exactly what happened on the sidelines of this thing.

Lonnie Frisbee took their money, went with them, did things on the sidelines, had big events and people from Calvary Chapel followed him and other hippies and were at these events. And then he would share the stage with shepherding leaders.

And they would do the deliverance stuff, they would do the fivefold ministry stuff, they would teach ladder rain stuff to the people and they imbibed on that. And John, I mean, I think, again, this is gonna sound so judgmental, but I really, I don't mean it to be judgmental.

I just mean it to be an honest assessment. You have a lot of young people who have a track record of irresponsibility and non-seriousness.

They're people who have run away from home, they're people who are doing drugs, they're people who are living a free-love lifestyle. I mean, there's a lot there that says to me that these are people who are not very serious thinkers, okay?

And they're the perfect target audience for these shepherding guys, you guys need maturity. We're gonna help you guys become sure we're going to help you grow spiritually and here is our shepherding practices here is our deliverance practices here's all our stuff that's going to really help you guys you young baby Christians to finally mature up right it it it has a draw it has a selling point to them and that's exactly what what sold them on it a lot of them was because it it was it seemed like an a solution to them to mature in their Christian walk right and it appealed to them but but not being

from a Reno strong Christian background or anything a lot of them just fell to the siren song of it and again you know we we could talk about Chuck Smith a lot um I'm reluctant to do so but whatever reason you're right Chuck Smith was in this ideology in the past he he absolutely was that's why he don't talk a lot about the early years of his ministry all right Chuck Smith's all his biographies basically start in 1967 but he he changed his mind for whatever reason and we can talk about a question is motive for what have you but for whatever reason he changed his

mind on this stuff and he resists the shepherding people and he takes a branch of the shepherding movement or a branch of the Jesus people movement in a reformative route away from these these three things away from positive confession away from fivefold ministry and away from manifest its sons of God he leads a group away from it while as another group who is influenced by Scott Ross and Lonnie Frisbee and John Wimber who we're going to talk about they branch away John and they produce the vineyard movement the vineyard movement the vineyard movement is the branch of

the Jesus people who broke away over this stuff and what happened is as as Lonnie Frisbee had his fall out with Chuck Smith he decides to go to Calvary Chapel in Anaheim so Calvary Chapel Chuck Smith or that church was part of the Calvary Chapel denomination so Lonnie Frisbee is kicked out more or less of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa but then he decides to go to the one in Anaheim which is roughly 15 miles away from Costa Mesa John and anybody who wants to go with Lonnie Frisbee to the new church guess what they they go with him to the new church and who's the pastor of that

church John Wimber John Wimber is the pastor of Calvary Chapel of Anaheim and as time precedes John Wimber allows whereas Chuck Smith pushes back and doesn't want the shepherding influences John Wimber opens his doors to it he lets Lonnie Frisbee you know build his nest there for a while and all that and and all of that people that are influenced by that gradually migrate into what is going to turn into the vineyard movement and John Wimbers throw it open the doors and he's he's going yes Bob Monford come preach for it yes dear Prince come come visit us he throws open his doors to it

and he also throws open his doors to the full gospel businessman and all the money that comes with that okay And so you've got full gospel business money, remember, a third of the full gospel business more is controlled by the message call, okay?

Full gospel business and money pouring into what's going to become the vineyard movement. You've got the convergence of the shepherding movement leaders into it. And you have Lonnie Frisbee and a few other figures like that that are really key to pulling in that early part of the Jesus movement who's been influenced by those things into what is going to turn into the vineyard movement.

And all that's happening in the mid to late 1970s, John. So back to perspective, I'm trying to avoid outright saying some of the things, but hopefully I can give examples and people can understand it.

So you and I are sitting in a house on vacation and you look out the window and you see mountains and you see this violent storm coming across the mountains and it's really dark where the shadows from the clouds are.

Well, I'm on the other side of the house and I look out the front window and I see nothing but sunshine. Later, if we describe what happened, you say, well, it was off, it was just terrible storms and raining and I'm looking out saying, well, it's sunshine.

It's happy. I see flowers and trees and our perspective, neither one of us are lying. We're both saying exactly what we saw, but as our perspective is molded by what we see, it becomes vastly different.

The same thing happens doctrinally. People experience things, John Wembroke called it the feels. He experienced things and this was a good thing. People who had those same quote unquote feels, they too might say it's a good thing.

People who were suffering, the people who realized the destructive nature, they would say, no, this was awful. This was terrible. Are both lying? No. It's different perspectives, right? I have, I'm in contact with many, many people and this is a conversation probably for a future podcast, but I'm in contact with people who were in the John Wembro meetings in the UK.

He was there with, I don't think Paul Cain was there, I think Cain had came before and primed the event, but Wembroke is there with the Kansas City Fellowship guys, Mike Bickel and these guys, and he's promoting basically Brannemism 2.0 to the people who've left the cults that emerged after that.

They will say that was the worst destructive thing that ever happened to us. This is awful. They're views of John Wembroke this way and they would say, as they enter into mainstream churches, they would say his views on the kingdom were just so anti-biblical and that's what they saw that was their perspective.

But there are people who are in the United States who are watching the happy feel good, everybody live free and die happy kind of thing. They're saying, well, no, this is a good thing.

This is blessed, God is in our presence, but when you're building those foundations of with all of these people, going back to the time period that you're talking about. There is so much brand of influence.

It's very hard to ignore that. And when you're in the feel good state where you're literally shaping your doctrine off of the emotions rather than off of the scriptures, you don't catch it as things start to slip in that aren't biblical.

You start to associate the things that you feel experienced. You associate that with God, and as the doctrine shifts away from the Bible, you associate the two together. In their head, they think these doctrines are biblical, and it begins to move in this weird direction to those who are suffering and those who are being oppressed by the movement.

They're saying, no, this is shifting so far away from the Bible. They don't know what they're doing. So two different perspectives is what you have going here. And like you just said, the full gospel of bens of man is right there.

Co-founded by, I think you've mentioned this in previous podcast, it's co-founded by a brand-amite, not far like 15 minutes from my house. I think it's closer to your house where they were. So this thing is being developed and shaped by brand-amites.

But yet it's combining with the Jesus people, and it's shifting into something that if a scholar were to look at this, they would say, this is nothing like brand-amism. This is a completely separate movement.

But for people like you and I, our perspective is, well, we know brand-amism. We know the foundation that's being laid, yes, they went far different, but at its core, the structures, the cult structures that were created, those elements were somehow creeping into this mess.

Let me help with perspective here just a little bit. I come from, I am formerly the associate pastor of the second oldest message church in the world. My church was launched with financial support from the full gospel businessmen.

Minor Argonbright's family helped sponsor the launch of the message church I come from, John. Minor Argonbright, the co-founder of the full gospel businessmen, who was still a senior leader on the board when the Jesus people's movement started.

And they also sponsored the money for Laudie Frisbee, and John Wimburn, okay? And so I know there's this thought that, oh, you guys don't know what you're talking about. You're not a single connection.

You're no, you are, you are very badly confused. You're silly. No, it is connected. There is the connections. They exist. This is not a distant, a distant thing. It's very closely connected. And you have, John, I think the right way to look at it is within the larger Jesus people movement, you have a smaller faction who has been influenced by Laudie Rayne ideology, via the shepherding movement, via the full gospel businessmen.

And that branch, and here's the thing, I don't know how much of it is it. I mean, is it half the Jesus people movement, is it 10%, I don't really have a good feel, right?

But a percentage of that Jesus people movement, who respected Lonnie Frisbee, who respected that ideology early on, they migrate into what is going to turn into the vineyard movement. Now, are they the only faction in the vineyard movement?

No, they're not the only faction in the vineyard movement, but they're there, and they're an influence within it, right, where they were a faction of the Jesus people movement. They're a faction of the vineyard movement.

In our next episode, John, we're going to spend probably most of that episode talking about the vineyard movement and how the gnar gets started and what happens there. But the gnar started in the vineyard movement.

The new apostolic reformation started in the vineyard churches. That's where it started, and it started when multiple branches of the latter reign movement recombined within the vineyard movement. And as what I'm trying to explain to you here, is you already have the shepherding influence coming in, right?

And they've got a strong fivefold ministry influence. They've got a strong deliverance positive confession stuff. You've got that at the start via the shepherding movement. But the manifested sons of God piece is going to come back into the another branch of the latter reign movement.

John won, which we know well, and we'll talk about it in our next episode. But when the vineyard movement invites in another branch of the latter reign movement, who's going to bring in the manifested sons of God, when those all come back in combination together, they are going to birth the new apostolic reformation.

OK, we'll talk through that in the next episode how it happens. But at this stage, back in the 70s, it's not a movement you're right. There's a lot of things that are not like the message.

There are a lot of things that are not exactly like the shepherding movement. But what makes it a cult?

These authoritarian leadership model fivefold ministry, the brainwashing stuff, and guess what they're absorbing in from the shepherding movement. Guess what they're absorbing in from the latter? They're absorbing in the elements that create the cult.

That is what they are absorbing in back in that day. And to me, it's sad. I mean, I've listened to a fair bit of like Lonnie Frisbee sermons. They're recorded. You can listen to them.

I've listened to a fair bit of John Wimber sermons from back in the 70s and early 80s.

I'm sad listening to those things. John, like I'm like, oh my goodness, these people are being sucked into something that they have no idea what they are getting into. And I really think that is my honest take.

I mean, the shepherding leaders targeted some key guys in the early Jesus people for recruitment. They used that to gather a ladder rain influenced set of believers within the early Jesus people. And that more or less ended up splitting off into the vineyard movement.

And I'll be clear. I mean, the vineyard movement today has also reformed somewhat. But then other parts it has it. They're corners of the vineyard movement today, John. They're absolutely a horrible cult. I mean, you can just look it online some of the stuff. Some corners of the vineyard movement are absolutely a destructive cult today.

And then other aspects of the vineyard movement are more like normal churches, right? So it's very hard to talk about it because they're very big movements, right? The vineyard movement is roughly the same size as the global message community. I think the message might be a little bigger overall than the vineyard movement. But you know how much diversity there is within the message, right? Well, the same thing within the vineyard movement.

There's a lot of diversity in there. And you've got the absolute crazy wing of it. And then you've got the, you know, the more normal wing of it. And maybe in our next episode, we can talk about why, somewhat, why those, why those distinctions are in there.

But I don't know, John, what do you think? I mean, for me, I'm just so reluctant to talk about these things. I really am reluctant to talk about these things because I mean, it is so obvious, the problems, right? And yes, when you're in these movements, they are your whole life, they're your whole world, they are your identity. And it's very hard to recognize problems when you are in this ideology. And you know, people vineyard primarily all adhere to positive confession, right? Like their brainwashed, you know, a lot of them. I mean, it's just the reality of it. And a lot of them who've imbibed the fivefold ministry model

are under authoritarian leadership. And to the extent that they've embraced manifested sons of God, they're crazy cult. I mean, that's just kind of, kind of the reality of it. It's sad. It is sad. You know, I've had long conversations with people that were affected by the results of all of this. If you follow it out to what this type of movement developed into, it becomes a cult of emotion. And emotion is one of the most powerful things to keep your mind and soul trapped.

If you can trap their emotion, if you can give them emotions of fear, if they leave, if you can give them the emotions of comfort, false comfort when they're in it, it is very, very damaging to a person.

I recently, it was just this Friday, which it'll be long before this comes out, but I had a conversation with a guy in Germany, and I think we called it the charismatic cult of emotion.

He's describing the fruits of what we're talking about here. These fields, if you trap your whole mind, body, and spirit off of thinking that it's the feelings that make it spiritual, well, destructive leadership can take that, and they can do anything that they want with you.

And the problem is, once your mind has been indoctrinated to believe that that is a Christian thing, and that anybody who opposes it, they're filled with a demon, and you demonize them, you're trapped by that emotion, and nobody can tell you any different. So for everybody who's outside looking in, who's never been part of this, they look at everything that you and I are saying, and they would say, John, what?

Why do you need to speak from perspective? You can just simply state the facts, and the people will just understand it, but it's not that way. When you're indoctrinated, the facts mean nothing because the person who's giving you the absolute truth might have a demon, so I'm gonna reject their facts.

And that's the fruit of all of this. It demonizes people, and it shuts your brain off. That's the key to understand. Your brain gets shut off when you get in this type of emotion.

You know, as I kind of said at the start of our last episode, going through the other branches of the latter-ray movement like we're doing here, to me, it's an exercise primarily in identifying where is it safe for me to go having left the message?

Because I don't wanna join another cult, right? And I feel like I recognize the pillars that made the message occult. And I don't wanna go to another place that has those pillars. You're not gonna catch me going to a five-fold ministry positive confession manifest at Sunset God Church.

That ain't happening, John. You can drag me into a place like that. Good gracious. And to me, those are really the three key elements that I trace in the ideology. And what can you say?

I mean, so the vineyard movement has that in spades. They have those three things in spades. Whereas the branch of the Jesus people movement that ended up following the influence of men like Chuck Smith, they reformed all that out.

They don't have all that, right? And so while I just wanna be very careful here, when we look at the Jesus people movement, there is a branch that didn't buy this ideology and go crazy with it.

But then there's another branch of the Jesus people who took a reformative route at a certain point and decided they didn't want it and pushed it out. And so I wanna make that distinctive distinction.

And there's so many complicated legacies with the people in this movement, John. I mean, Derek Prince had a complicated legacy, but some of the people in the Jesus movement have equally complicated legacies. Like John Wimber has a very complicated legacy.

Because guess what? At the end of John Wimber's life, he renounced all this stuff, right? We'll talk about that in our next episode too. And so in that respect in some ways, John, I don't think I'm saying anything.

John Wimber wouldn't say himself now, right? Because on his deathbed, right? He wrote those pastoral letters in which he said, yeah, this was all a bad idea, you know? And so I know if there may be people in the comments who are like, oh, you're talking bad about John Wimber.

No, I am agreeing with John Wimber. I am agreeing with what he said at the end of his life about all this stuff. The same is Derek Prince at the end of his life.

And so what I would do if you're from the vineyard movement, I would strongly encourage you to go get the pastoral letters that John Wimber wrote at the end of his life about all this stuff.

When he renounced it all and consider, have you really taking heed to those letters and renounce this ideology. And I would strongly encourage you, too, if you haven't. So one last time back to perspective, my friends in the UK who were influenced by the John Wimber meetings in the UK were watching as John Wimber's praising destructive cult leaders like Mike Bickel, who's teaching basically Branemism 2.0.

And they're not aware of the John Wimber letters. So from their perspective, it doesn't matter if he wrote it on his death bet or not. All that they know is that they were involved in destructive cults that were a result, a direct result of John Wimber's meetings in the UK.

This thing had it produce fruit, and that fruit was very destructive. So from their perspective, it doesn't matter if he wrote a letter or not. What good does the letter do after the movement has grown and lives have been ruined?

Their perspective is much different from people here who came after all of this, and they didn't see the aftermath, and all they saw was, well, there's this letter. He rejected the whole thing. So two different perspectives is one right, is one wrong, both are right.

Yes, he wrote a letter, but to the person who has suffered because of all of this, that person needs to also be recognized. The point I'm trying to make in all of this is that the history is very important.

If you try to erase the bad parts of history, history will repeat itself. You have to document the history. If I do something bad, it needs to be document. If I say something wrong, it needs to be documented, and I try to do that on the website.

When I say something that's incorrect, I will try to correct it, and as best I can try to spread information, yeah, what I said, it was off the march just a little bit. Try to correct the history, so I don't repeat the mistakes, and so somebody else don't find it and repeat it.

What happens if I write a whole slew of false information on my website or in my blogs or in my podcast, and wait till my very death, and write a letter and say, well, half of what I wrote was wrong.

That influence is already out there, right? So as we get into this further, which I look forward to the next episode, keep the perspective in mind, and then I'll shift back to actual focusing on history, and talking about the things that really happen.

The history as it was documented. A couple parting notes before we wrap up, John. One is, this ideology takes time to produce destruction. Nobody joins a cult. Hey, join us, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna ruin your lives.

That's not a sales pitch. They start out with noble aims, right? But over time, the ideology naturally delivers destruction, because that's just the nature of the framework and the ideology. People join with wonderful motives, right?

And wonderful intentions, but you put good people in a bad system, a bad system wins, and it takes time for... these groups to degenerate. It took time for the message to degenerate into what it became.

It took time for the shepherding movement to degenerate into what it became. It took time for all of these branches of the latter end to degenerate into what they became. And when the Jesus people movement first inbibed this, they weren't necessarily so destructive at first.

It took time for them to build up to the 1980s and 1990s. It took 25 years roughly for them to start entering the really destructive cycle of this ideology. And that's when John Wimper decided to recannot all when they finally hit the bust cycle, right?

And that is important to recognize. And you may have come in in the early days, right? And maybe miss some of that. You made it came in after the reform of these things happen.

But there was a cycle of this where it was a boom and a bust destruction cycle that did happen. In the vineyard movement. We'll talk about that in our next episode. One last thing, John, before we close out today, I mainly just been going through chapter 10 in my book, come out of where my people volume two.

But I want to point to two other books if people want resources. One book I'll point you to is the shepherding movement by David Moore. This is a pretty good book. It talks about all these connections to the Jesus people movement that I'm telling you about.

The one caveat I point you to a problem in this book is this gentleman didn't fully understand the origin of the shepherding movement. I don't think he realized that all the shepherding guys were working together already by the mid 60s.

So he kind of puts the start of it in the early 70s. So that's the only caveat there. But everything else in here is very good, very useful, very accurate. The other thing, I pointed to this book so many times the New Carismatics by Michael Moriardi.

This is one of the best books out there on that topic. And this, what's so good about this is, while the shepherding movement, this is gonna tell you how to connect some people together, this book does just a really good job of explaining how the ideology shifted in the origins of the ideology.

Right, because if you're in these movements and you're like us, John, I mean, you probably just think five-fold ministry's normal. You probably just think positive confessions normal. This is normal. You know, every Christian does this sort of stuff.

No, that's not the truth. That's not the truth. These five-fold ministry comes from the latter-rain movement and is only found in the branches of the latter-rain movement. Positive confession is found in some other places besides the latter-rain movement.

But again, you got it from the common root in the latter-rain movement, the causative confession stuff. And the same with manifested sons of God. Manifested sons of God, wherever it's at in the world today, is come through a branch of the latter-rain movement.

I think these ideologies all have a common root in the latter-rain movement. And just coming to understand the history of your ideology will help you understand that, yeah, you are part of a branch of the same movement.

the message, and you can analyze to see if you still have those same destructive elements in your ideology that produces all of this harm wherever it goes. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org and www.ChristianGospelChurch.org. For more about the history of William Branum and the Healing Revivals, read Come Out of Her My People, and for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.